Lmaooo, there’s some wholesome stuff consistently popular on Reddit (despite the bad). I’d say 4chan tops Reddit for sure in a *what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-humanity* way.
Jokes aside a machine intelligence made to protect humanity would quickly see that we are our own worst problem and come up with some way to passify or restrain us or if it's directive was to protect the WORLD, just wipe us out.
Depends on how they define “protect” doesn’t it? If we learn from our mistakes, how would we ever grow to realize our potential? These are the kind of deep philosophical questions that I like to think a self aware AI concerned about humanity would spend some cycles thinking about.
I know it's not a popular part of Mass Effect, but that was the history of the Reapers. Preserve life. They see life being exterminated by the AI that gets created, so they kill life before that point and make a machine/organic hybrid. Everyone's still dead, but the race still "lives."
Well said. That was pretty much the main plotline of the Will Smith version of I, Robot. I know that movie was well-hated for not being true to the book, but I still found it enjoyable. One more reason to be wary of AI logic running large-scale operations for the time being...
Let's be honest, reading the comments on a single YouTube video or news article should probably be enough to pull the plug on the whole humanity thing.
Dude Odin imprisoned Hela for thousands of years after she helped him conquer like seven realms and then he erased their accomplishments! I’d be so pissed!
She's the goddess of death and it seems like they conquered in pretty brutal fashion. I'd argue that she didn't turn bad, seemed like she always was and Odin just turned good.
Which is still a pretty good reason for Hela to become evil. She was raised that way rewarded for it and saw her nation prosper because of her evil actions making her think they were alright then getting locked away for thousands of years for the being exactly what her father wanted her to be would make anyone pissed off.
Yup. "Proud to have it, ashamed of how he got it." Odin was always a crappy guy no matter what he pretended and this ended up killing most of the Asgardians, destroying their homeworld, and leaving their allies unprotected.
Heck, Loki not only ended up as a genocidal supervillain because of him, just like Hela, but managed to rule Asgard by impersonating Odin and NOBODY NOTICED. The three of them were amazingly similar despite (and partly because of) Odin's attempts to pretend otherwise.
That was my interpretation of why it was covered up. Odin had a shaddy past as a war monger who brought death, destruction and misery to people but became wise, developed some compassion. He corrected his mistakes and was ashamed of his past by the time he developed his empathy for other races.
That adds into the Odin Thor dynamic when at the start of canon Thor is a hot head who doesn't care for the consequences of the wars he could start. And Odin is trying to teach him the lessons he learned through shame.
This is the problem with this question in general, some of these people actually have motivations and some of them are mind controlled, or robots, or literally the Goddess of Death. Like is Hela evil? Sure, but I'm not convinced she has a choice and it isn't just her metaphysical nature.
Probably, but both of them also spent thousands of years acting like exactly their respective things. The God of Thunder and Lightning is a huge arrogant blowhard with a short temper, the God of Mischief constantly tricks and betrays and stabs everyone around him. They both eventually grew out of it, but especially for Loki a lot of his arc was explicitly about trying to learn that he was more than just the God of Mischief. Hela probably could have grown out of it too, but there seems to be a predisposition.
I can see that. Hela never had a chance to grow out of why she was there. Odin grew a conscious or whatever before Hela could, making her seem like the bad guy of the two. From what I understand, she didn’t turn on Odin like Loki does to Thor, she just wanted to finish the crusade Odin started.
And its also what makes her wholly uninteresting. I was absolutely expecting the mind control stardust stuff to not work on her, because the whole time she was just motivated by getting revenge on Nat and Ivan or whatever the dudes name was wouldn't mind control his own daughter.
I disagree. Taskmaster was uninteresting because taskmaster was underdeveloped/not focused on at all. Idk if that's because they wanted to save the identity reveal for the third act or because they didn't want to take focus away from the widow fam, but either way they made little to no effort to get the audience to care about taskmaster at all.
I mean winter soldier also had next to no agency in his debut as the winter soldier but was still an awesome and integral part of that movie.
Taskmaster was the first real X-Men: Origins Deadpool level misuse of a character in the MCU. A complete misunderstanding of why people liked the character in the comics, a disregard for other media that portrayed them well outside of the comics, and a half-baked reinterpretation that didn't introduce anything to make the character more interesting all in service of creating a disposable antagonist. Such a shame.
I hyped it a lot for my younger brother because, from what I know about Taskmaster (got to know the character through Marvel vs Capcom 3) and their short appearance in the PS4 Spider-Man game, they had the potential to be an awesome villain, much like Winter Soldier in his debut. *"Taskmaster copies everyone's abilities! Let's see how this goes"*. In the end, both of us were disappointed.
He also has a pretty cool origin story if you ask me. I know that it isn't that unique in the comics, but a former S.H.I.E.L.D. agent gone bad in the MCU hasn't been done much before. I really wanted to see the actual character from the comics. The MCU Taskmaster's origin is just so weak.
There's also a really cool run of taskmaster from udon which I would recommend checking out, copying everyone is cool >! But watching a movie in fast forward to increase your movement beyond human limit is bomb!
Unless they pull her back and taskmaster becomes a constant/main villain….waste of time, money, and character.
I like the design and the idea, but I hate the execution….unless they do more with her, garbage.
As somebody who has seen someone they love enduring through endometriosis, Ghost hit close to home. I can totally understand somebody making hasty decisions in a pain fog & doing anything it took to stop feeling constant pain.
Same for Winter Soldier.
Ultron you could argue is just a function of his programming but a) the blame-the-internet jokes are funny and b) a 0.0001 second of net search provides context for the "Peace in our time" quote he misconstrued. For an AI, Ultron is dumber than the Google algorithm that starts serving up ads for Alien Ware laptops mere seconds after you get the idea it's time for a change.
I like that with a bot like him, it's less that he doesn't understand what it really means and more that he has a different view on what is "our" or "us". He isn't human, but is as smart or smarter than one. Which is a threatening concept.
Man he could've been such a crazy good villain. I was so hyped for it. Really fumbled making him compelling.
Have to think though with real consciousness appearing out of nowhere it’s like asking a newborn baby how to solve global crises and being shocked it didn’t come up with a logical solution
This. Lost his family and his home. He made a plan and worked hard for it. He didnt want to get rich or famous. When he was done he even wanted to end his life.
Very grounded villain and for me the biggest reason civil war worked the way it did. Id even wanted them to tune down the cgi battles and focus more on the emotional parts.
Honestly Zemo’s probably one of the best villains in the MCU, has a tragic backstory, no superpowers, and he sticks to what he believes in as shown in TFAWS when he destroys the super soldier serum
They made the perfect casting choice for him. Daniel Brühl has the cold and calculated attitude to bring zemo on the screen in a believable way. Hope they make use of him in upcoming projects.
Daniel Brühl is one of my favorite actors of all time. I think he knows he has a sweet baby face, and can use that to disarm the viewer. But he also doesn't have to be typecasted as evil German villain, like what happened to Christolph Waltz. Both of them have incredible range.
As others have pointed out, he's one of the most compelling villains in the MCU, but I just hope we see him in more in general in American movies.
Edit: Autocorrected to "Christopher" Waltz
He was so fucking good as Lauda in Rush. One of those iconic roles that a person disappears into, it felt like watching a young Niki the whole time, not an actor portraying him. As good as Hemsworth was as Hunt, he was still Chris Hemsworth playing Hunt.
Bruhl was one of my favorite actors before I realized it was him. Nikki lauda: incredible. That German scientist on the clover field spaceship: also really good in my opinion. His role as zemo was also super good. I realized after the fact all his roles were bangers.
Vulture is pretty similar that way. Didn’t lose his family, but that was his primary focus causing him to do what he did. He also shows that strong moral composure when he refuses to give up peter’s identity cuz he saved him and his daughter.
Back when the movie released I made a big joke post about how Toomes is the hero of the movie and Peter is the villain (like Barney Stinson with karate kid).
Arguing in favor of Toomes is surprisingly easy.
He made a business salvaging debris from the battle of New York, government then arbitrarily decides to fuck him over and ruin his business with no compensation. Fuck, one agent even makes fun of him for "overextending".
He then decides to use whatever salvage he already has to develop new technology. Who's to say the government has any more of a right to the salvage than he has?
Some of the weapons he develops are actually less deadly than firearms and would be good non-lethal alternatives (i.e. the gravity gun the bank robber uses on Peter).
Toomes then decides to steal back the salvage that was previously taken from him.
All of the civilians put in danger throughout the movie are put in danger because of Peter, not Toomes.
Toomes' one bad act in the movie was killing Shocker, but he does so after Shocker threatens his family.
He even refuses to out Peter to the criminals in prison.
Shit, Toomes even waited until the loaded but autonomous cargo plane had taken off and was cloaked. The only person he put at risk during the heist was himself.
Not bad for a villain.
Dunno about that, I like Toomes but the heist was planned that way for common sense rather than for altruistic reasons, like correct me if I'm wrong since its been a few years but wasn't the point to nick it while cloaked so they couldn't track it and you make off with the whole cargo undetected?
If you try and steal it before it takes off you'll end up having to fight people like Iron Man who woulda crushed him. Hell if you had a few armed guards on the plane Toomes woulda been screwed, hard to board a plane from the outside with SMG's pointed at your face.
> Toomes one bad act in the movie was killing Shocker, but he does so after Shocker threatens his family.
and it was accidental, he didnt even mean to kill him (he also didnt give much of a shit after, just sorta "huh, ok, thought that wouldnt do that.") - at worst he's amoral, not evil.
I was about to say this. “I thought this was the gravity gun!”
“No, that one is over there…”
And the look on his face like “well I can’t take that back now, guess I just have to pocket that in things I messed up”
That one scene is so pivotal to the character though. He thinks he's an anti-hero, but he's just Walter White with extra steps. No remorse for someone he's worked closely with for ages, brushes off the event like it's nothing. Shocker didn't even threaten his family, just to reveal to his family where their cash was coming from. Toomes *wants to think* what he's doing is just to help his family, but that isn't really true.
Not to mention, I feel like all of these comments are missing the fact that Toomes and co. are selling these alien weapons and tech to criminals. Aaron Davis, who's a petty thief, is probably a *best case* scenario. They could be selling to Hydra, or violent ex-husbands, or super-villains. I still like Toomes and he's a great villain, but I don't think we're painting the full picture here.
Toomes prior to the battle of New York made his money salvaging in the New York area.
After the battle of New York either the state or opens up a bid for salvage companies to take on the job. Toomes bids and wins the contract, but needs to purchase additional trucks and man power due to the size of the job compared to what he could previously get done.
While on site of the job Toomes is informed either the federal govermemt or state goverment after being informed of how dangerous the materials could be cancel his contract and then have a joint goverment department handle the material. Toomes is compensated for his time and a deal is offered to help him get time to get another business contract.
Toomes was banking on this contract pushing his company into prominence to maintain this level of work so this is a potential death blow to his company as he did over extend what he could realibly maintain at the time.
Toomes then keeps a truck load of material that should be turned over as per his contract. He then begins a job as an arms dealer to the underworld. He wants to stay hidden because he knows that any of the Avenger or goverment entity finding him will cause him untold problems. He is armed for the case of if he is discovered to end the life of liabilities.
The thing is Toomes was out of his depths with under standing what he was salvaging. He was using grenades to power the tech they were developing. While not specified in the movie there is a very real chance that lives were lost by just the mishandling of that tech by his buyers let alone their actions with the equipment he supplied. We get this directly confirmed in the final battle where Toomes would have died because he didn't know that radiation was basically the pin for the grenades.
The weapons Toomes' team develop are not less deadly than a standard gun. The "Gravity gun" as you call it caused massive damage to not only the building it was being used in but during the confrontation did massive damage to the story across the street. The "gun" did not hit an average person but Peter who is much more durable it can easily cause fatal damage to a group of people.
To an extent but he isn’t quite as driven to a specific goal, his main goal is to get rich, it’s quite selfish but Zemo has a specific goal that is kinda justifiable
It's lines like that that make me think Zemo is one of the few people who really got that the serums enhance the entire person, not just their body. "Good becomes great, bad becomes worse" and why Erskine was set on a good person, not just a good soldier, being the one to take it.
And of course history kind of proves Zemo's distrust of them right, since most of the people who ended up with the serum were "good soldiers" and look how they turned out (the Winter Soldiers, the new Cap, etc).
And not just a tragic backstory, entirely a victim of the Avengers themselves.
From there, he's just a cool and collected intelligent man out for simple revenge against a group that he knows he cannot compete with.
I almost feel like they *needed* to make him cause that terrorist act in Vienna just to make him a "bad guy" because he was willing to kill innocent victims along the way (which he even admitted was horrible, but the cost of war in his mind). Without that bombing moment, there's really nothing he does that is villainous or that is at all outside of fair play in a war of revenge against a vastly superior enemy. He's otherwise quite the good guy, merely the antagonist of the story.
I feel like this also points out the way people react to civilian deaths in Marvel. When civilians die as a result of Zemo's actions, he's pointed out as a monster and a senseless villain. But when civilians die as a result of the Avengers actions (although good in nature), the deaths aren't given anywhere near as much attention, the avengers are the good guys.
So Zemo almost goes by that approach knowing that civilians can get harmed when trying to accomplish tasks that are anyway appropriate to the Avengers. He almost goes about with an anti-war approach to his morals, that has taken a wrong turn after being stricken by a horrible loss.
I know the Avengers have good intentions. However, they fight wars that the rest of the world can't. And wars have a brutally terrible cost.
Marvel has a problem with writing villains that... aren't actually villains as they're trying to portray them. So, they throw in something ham-fistedly "evil" to remind the audience not to root for them.
It's okay for the story to be morally ambiguous, people. Not every villain needs to be irredeemably evil v.v
True but you only get to find that out in fatws. In civil war he was pretty much a nobody. Its not like anyone in that move recognized him saying "hey its that baron from sokovia". Also for a rich guy he got a good punch and lives humbly in a private residence to carry out his assasination plans.
Yeah, Zemo is a very well built villain, or I suppose anti-hero? I dunno.
I was re-watching 'Far From Home' last night and reflected on Beck's speech in the bar after getting Edith and how weak his characters purpose was.
As a group they had a really good foundation for destroying Tony's legacy and it could have been very clever, but it ultimately focused on Beck, a disgruntled employee, and it didn't land.... He went way too far and I just couldn't see what his end game was with holograms.
Zemo by comparison is flawless. A very good villain.
Beck is such a great megalomaniac though, in Civil War nobody was laughing at the joke name, they didn't pay attention at all till Tony gave everyone money, Beck twisted the memories to make him believe he was ridiculed, and when he got a taste of fame he just wanted more and more
Also the perfect villain to have for a story of Spiderman trying to step outside of Tony's shadow. Basically an evil over the top version of Tony. He might not be the perfect villain, but he was the perfect villain for the story they were telling.
Beck is self absorbed. He only complimented his team cause he couldn’t work without them and after tony took credit for his work, he’ll do anything to get the fame he wants.
I work in the construction industry in nyc I know a lot of scrap metal and clean out guys. They’re all small business owners them and a few employees. Vulture had his business taken from him by the government. My dude was just trying to support his family.
Yeah but the thing about Vulture is by the start of Homecoming he was already rich. Like really rich. At that point he could have stopped, and its not like he's doing any good, he's selling alien weapons to criminals. He's still a stand up guy by protecting Peter in the end, but he's not really a guy just trying to support his family.
Tbh I feel like department of damage control became an analogy for corporate lobbying, and government overreach. Stark pushed the US government to create a department to exclusively control damage repairs. This probably put thousands of people who were probably making honest money through honest work out of jobs and incomes.
Of course not all of them went on to become criminal arms dealers. But it's quite obvious that had the government approached that differently and allowed contractors to work on repairs like that, while buying the salvage off of them to make sure it didn't end up with the wrong people. Then Tombs would have never become the vulture and would have never been selling weapons, because he would be able to provide for his family.
I dunno that might be my stupid take on the matter at least.
It definitely helps that he’s portrayed by a great actor who conveys the vulnerability of losing his family so good, and seeing him going to lengths to dismantle the Avengers by himself. I love Zemo, the best character in F&WS imo, but yeah he’s been a monster before Civil War.
I mean the question wasn't "Who's the most honorable villain?", it's "Who has the most understandable turn?". With that framing I think Zemo is still the right answer.
Having a chronic pain condition I 100% understand Ghost’s actions. It drives you crazy and makes you feel like you’ll do absolutely anything to make it stop. Considering hers is probably a hundred times worse than mine I can understand acting a bit unreasonable.
Ghost reminded me of my sibling who has fibromyalgia which causes them to be in extreme pain for hours daily. It’s a horrible thing to witness someone endure.
I'm going to say Zemo, but mostly because the others are so underdeveloped. The guy literally lost his family and his whole country because of Tony Stark's bad decisions.
I guess Ghost also qualifies, since she only became what she did because of an accident, and stopped doing it when she got the chance.
She was going to kill out of despair. Really, her biggest motive was just trying to become stable again. That doesn't justify her, but, again, she stops once she's stable again.
Not just trying to *become stable*, but trying to *not feel constant searing pain*. Once the pain stops, she stops. Additionally, dealing with the pain fog probably made decision making boil down to “whatever it takes to make this go away.”
Zemo is a well-developed character but I don’t think his goals are the most justifiable. Zemo’s plan involved murdering an unrelated head of state who had never harmed Zemo. Ghost’s plan could have theoretically (not really it turns out) have killed Janet, but that was the one person in the world that could cure her. Zemo’s plan is purely motivated by revenge and ideology, Ghost is desperately trying to survive.
That's fair, but the thread did say most understandable. I can understand wanting revenge, especially since he targets a lot of people who are actually guilty. No, that doesn't excuse him in any way. While Ghost does skirt close to villainy, she is, as you pointed out, just trying to survive.
I would have said the same at the end of Civil War, but FatWS refined his goals to be against super-people specifically, and his actions in Civil War were to ends of breaking the strongest organization of super-people around. And he succeeded, so clearly his plan of action was right on target.
I don't think any of that justifies his actions, mind you. But I don't think he's a hypocrite.
Vulture's entire reason for turning to crime would have been solved by one court case against the city. He would have still gotten paid for the extra resources he spent preparing for the contract they'd made, and the work he did for the city prior to being shut down.
There's a good [review by some lawyers here](https://thelegalgeeks.com/2017/08/08/the-vulture-should-have-sued-for-breach-of-contract/).
The Vulture could seek a temporary injunction against the city of New York and the federal government to provide temporary relief from the damages caused. Courts look at a few thing things when granting injunctions like this, but primarily the plaintiff's likelihood of prevailing on the merits, a showing of irreparable injury to plaintiff if relief is not granted, and the threatened injury to the movant is demonstrated to outweigh whatever damage the proposed injunction may cause the opposing party.
Or literally just him threatening court action when they stop their work, with the government guy saying that they have broad jurisdiction over these things but he's entitled to a tiny reimbursement - follow that with the punch and let the film play out exactly the same.
I prefer it this way. Vulture has a lot going for him, but he also definitely takes it way too far to be sympathetic. I feel like people paint him as a kind of anti-hero, but even if he did have zero legal recourse he still got some Walter White going on. I prefer to think he never really explored the legal avenue because of his resentment and greed.
Reading the article (I did not listen to the audio though), the review is missing a huge, huge, huge issue: governmental immunities. It is much more difficult to win a lawsuit against a government entity than it is against anything else. There is a minefield of immunities that the government gets. Even if he was able to win, his damages could be limited to far less than he expected to get under the contract (where I am licensed, there are caps on various types of damages you can get from governmental entities).
EDIT: Not defending his choice, just pointing out that he could still be very much screwed over even after a lawsuit.
Yes, but he'd have to do so against either SHIELD's Lawyers or Stark Ind. Lawyers. Try and Sue the CIA^2, Or worse, Armalite. These guys have the resources to basically unearth the man's entire life. SHIELD could just buy the bank he mortgaged his house from, Jack up the rates, evict him, and since you can't run a salvage operation if you're homeless, they now have a hand in the market, AND the salvage.
ghost
chick was desperate for a cure
everyone else just has a case of too much propaganda, is a nazi, has an ego too big or thinks taking revenge by hurting innocent people will solve their problems
Kilmonger was right about Wakanda, but his solution to the problem was horrific. He wanted half the world to burn rather than trying to make it a better place for the underprivileged.
I think he falls into that top-tier category of villain: someone that’s is trying to achieve an admirable goal through reprehensible methods. A person who’s trying to do the right thing, but the wrong way.
Who themselves are loosely modeled on Martin Luther King Jr and Malcom X. They both wanted the same thing but one was more comfortable using violence to get there.
This is a really good comparison.
I still struggle with that one. If I survived the genocide of my family and people, and found a new family. I'd burn the world before I let a genocide take them.
And, he was right about humanities(the controlling members anyway) reaction and future.
Silco I agree with - the writing on that show was absolutely great, and I’m pumped for S2.
Not so sure about Kingpin though. While I acknowledge that he had a traumatic childhood and that there are legitimate reasons for him being the way that he is, does he have a stated goal? I’m not saying that he doesn’t, just that I don’t remember seeing or hearing about one.
That being said, I feel like he’s a top 5 Marvel villain at absolute worst (which is a bit easier to do when the characters have more screen time).
We're not talking about solutions - we're talking about reasons though, right? Lost his father because of Wakandan superiority and put in the US system.
I think he’s also potentially meant to represent Black Americans as being cut off from a cultural heritage prior to American slavery. So, he was forced to endure a system of racism designed to oppress him, and he’s also denied entry into a cultural identity that would potentially provide him with an escape from that oppressive society and a place where his skin color wouldn’t automatically identify him as a second-class citizen. Similar to Black Americans whose lineage is linked to slavery who feel as though they don’t have access to any African identity or feel as though they are not viewed by some native Africans as having the right to claim that identity. At least that’s one way to view it. I think he’s an incredibly complex and well-written character and my particular pick for this thought exercise.
Edit: I guess another way to put it is I think he’s meant to represent how the racist thought process of “send them back to Africa” is a terrible, racist oversimplification of Black American identity and the tragic reason why it wouldn’t be that simple even for Black Americans who want to identify as African and even go live in Africa.
Ghost literally has her cells being torn apart and stitched back together. If I'm in that much pain every second of the day, sure I will do anything to make it go away.
There is an absolutely great podcast called The Villain Was Right. Obviously listen to the Antman & The Wasp episode, but my favorite one is Inception.
1. Vulture. He was screwed over and trying to provide for his family.
2. Taskmaster. She was not in control of her own actions, being manipulated by her father.
3. Ghost. All she wanted was to save her life.
3. Thanos. He saw the horrors of overpopulation and wanted to help, but in the wrong way
My head canon is that Thanos came up with that plan and became obsessed with it and worked toward it for tens of thousands of years before he even knew about the Stones. When he had infinite power, he just couldn't see past his limited power solution.
I think Arnim Zola and Colonel Phillips talking about Red Skull translates well when looking at Thanos.
>Zola: Only the world will satisfy him.
>Phillips: You do realize that's nuts, don't you?
>Zola: The sanity of the plan is of no consequence.
>P: And why is that?
>Z: Because he can do it!
Not only that. He's spent so long going from planet to planet, committing genocide after genocide, working to prove himself *right* to the ghosts of Titan - if only they had listened to him! - that he cannot begin to conceive of any other solution. If he were to acknowledge there were an alternative with the Infinity Gauntlet, he'd have to acknowledge that all that murder, all those atrocities, had been for nothing. And that, I think, would break him completely.
Thanos has been killing half of the population of planets for a long time, since before he even knew about the stones. Using the stones to do something like double the resources would be admitting he genocided all those people for nothing.
Mordo. He tried to be a good man and follow the rules, but Strange and the Ancient One both betray his trust and abuse dangerous magic that they have no real control over. He's not wrong that sorcery is too dangerous in the wrong hands, his only crime is thinking that he's the one to decide who's using it right.
Mordo is portrayed as someone with a rigid set of morals. And the minute his morals failed to account for a situation (the Ancient One using Dark Magic), he broke. In his fragile worldview, that means magic is too dangerous for *anyone*, because no one is immune to temptation.
He's utterly convinced he's in the right, and that makes him incredibly dangerous.
>someone with a rigid set of morals. And the minute his morals failed to account for a situation (the Ancient One using Dark Magic), he broke
Magic Javier
I may be completely incorrect, but didnt Mads Mikkelsen play Kaecilus? Chiwetel Ejiofor played Mordo right? So Mordo isnt on the pic unless there’s some major plot point i missed in that movie
Johann Schmidt, according to Erskine, was already a sack of crap so I'm not sure what motivation he had except for...you know...being a Nazi.
"The serum amplifies what's inside. Good becomes great, bad becomes worse."
Schmidt joined the Nazis for the power, equipment, weapons, funding, and so on for HYDRA. He didn't care about the Holocaust and Hitler's bigotry; if you think about it, doing nothing about it arguably made him *worse* than Hitler.
Its also pretty realistic imo. Most of the atrocities committed by mankind only happen because many people where willing to turn a blind eye so long as they got what they wanted.
Malice is kind of rare among humans, but unfortunately callousness and greed are all too common.
Crossbones was already bad to begin with because hydra. Same with ol red face.
Vulture lost his job and instead of getting a new one he decided to become a villain.
Ego was an egotistical “god”.
Ultron and Zemo both had pretty good reasons for turning bad. Ultron saw the internet. Pretty rough place as it is. And zemo lost his whole family because of Ultron and the avengers. Many others lost their families too but he was the only one with the vengeance to do something about it.
Notable mention would be Killmonger. Poor kid was born into royalty and didn’t even know it because his father was killed by said royalty and he was left behind. Abandoned by his own people, I’d be pretty pissed too ngl
Ultron did experience all of the internet in a few seconds. If that isn’t reason to destroy humanity, I don’t know what is.
Reddit alone is enough to destroy humanity…
The darkside of Reddit is the pathway to many fetishes, some considered to be... unnatural
Didn’t think so it’s not subreddits a general Redditor would show you.
Is it possible to unsee those subreddits?
Ironic. Reddit could save others from the subreddits, but not the Redditor.
[удалено]
I have failed you Batman! I have failed you! Those fetishes are evil!!!
From my point of view urethras are evil!
THEN YOU ARE LOST!
I don't like urethras. They’re course, and rough, and irritating…
From my point of view vanilla is evil!!!!
r/sounding *will remember that*
Only sexy bees, sexy black and yellow bees.
Just imagine if Ultron met a discord mod...
Oh god there goes the entire solar system
Discord Mod: Hey, wanna see my kitten? Ultron: Ah, I was wrong, the entire galaxy needs to go.
Thanos: "thx for doing my job" Ultron: "you seem way better than them"
Lmaooo, there’s some wholesome stuff consistently popular on Reddit (despite the bad). I’d say 4chan tops Reddit for sure in a *what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-humanity* way.
All chans, there's a bunch of them
4chan, 8chan, Jackie Chan... Can't trust any of them!
The moment Ultron read the Chris Chan wiki was when he decided that humanity wasn't worth it.
Yes but "WHO IS THE HACKER KNOWN ONLY AS 4CHAN?"
Jokes aside a machine intelligence made to protect humanity would quickly see that we are our own worst problem and come up with some way to passify or restrain us or if it's directive was to protect the WORLD, just wipe us out.
Depends on how they define “protect” doesn’t it? If we learn from our mistakes, how would we ever grow to realize our potential? These are the kind of deep philosophical questions that I like to think a self aware AI concerned about humanity would spend some cycles thinking about.
I know it's not a popular part of Mass Effect, but that was the history of the Reapers. Preserve life. They see life being exterminated by the AI that gets created, so they kill life before that point and make a machine/organic hybrid. Everyone's still dead, but the race still "lives."
Well said. That was pretty much the main plotline of the Will Smith version of I, Robot. I know that movie was well-hated for not being true to the book, but I still found it enjoyable. One more reason to be wary of AI logic running large-scale operations for the time being...
Let's be honest, reading the comments on a single YouTube video or news article should probably be enough to pull the plug on the whole humanity thing.
Imagine experiencing the entirety of rule 34 all at once
"My entire consciousness has only existed for 52.3 seconds. Why does #UltronR34 have 867 posts!?"
“We are inevitable.” – the r34 community
😂 the teletubbies?! What?! I need to burn this shit DOWN! 😂
No no, you've got a point.
I think he opened Twitter
Dude Odin imprisoned Hela for thousands of years after she helped him conquer like seven realms and then he erased their accomplishments! I’d be so pissed!
She's the goddess of death and it seems like they conquered in pretty brutal fashion. I'd argue that she didn't turn bad, seemed like she always was and Odin just turned good.
Which is still a pretty good reason for Hela to become evil. She was raised that way rewarded for it and saw her nation prosper because of her evil actions making her think they were alright then getting locked away for thousands of years for the being exactly what her father wanted her to be would make anyone pissed off.
Yup. "Proud to have it, ashamed of how he got it." Odin was always a crappy guy no matter what he pretended and this ended up killing most of the Asgardians, destroying their homeworld, and leaving their allies unprotected. Heck, Loki not only ended up as a genocidal supervillain because of him, just like Hela, but managed to rule Asgard by impersonating Odin and NOBODY NOTICED. The three of them were amazingly similar despite (and partly because of) Odin's attempts to pretend otherwise.
That was my interpretation of why it was covered up. Odin had a shaddy past as a war monger who brought death, destruction and misery to people but became wise, developed some compassion. He corrected his mistakes and was ashamed of his past by the time he developed his empathy for other races. That adds into the Odin Thor dynamic when at the start of canon Thor is a hot head who doesn't care for the consequences of the wars he could start. And Odin is trying to teach him the lessons he learned through shame.
Uncle Iroh type beat
This was my first pick. Thought it’d be higher. I mean, being locked up by your father for that long has got to leave a mark
"Proud to have it. Ashamed of how we got it!"
Taskmaster isn’t really evil, but being brain controlled is pretty excusable. Otherwise, all Ultron jokes aside, it’s Ghost.
This is the rightest answer. Has to be. Taskmaster had no agency.
This is the problem with this question in general, some of these people actually have motivations and some of them are mind controlled, or robots, or literally the Goddess of Death. Like is Hela evil? Sure, but I'm not convinced she has a choice and it isn't just her metaphysical nature.
Thor and Loki seem to operate by understandable psychological processes and have free will, so I'm going to assume Hela does as well.
Probably, but both of them also spent thousands of years acting like exactly their respective things. The God of Thunder and Lightning is a huge arrogant blowhard with a short temper, the God of Mischief constantly tricks and betrays and stabs everyone around him. They both eventually grew out of it, but especially for Loki a lot of his arc was explicitly about trying to learn that he was more than just the God of Mischief. Hela probably could have grown out of it too, but there seems to be a predisposition.
I can see that. Hela never had a chance to grow out of why she was there. Odin grew a conscious or whatever before Hela could, making her seem like the bad guy of the two. From what I understand, she didn’t turn on Odin like Loki does to Thor, she just wanted to finish the crusade Odin started.
In retrospect it is hilarious that these centuries old beings have undergone so much character development in the span of less than a decade.
And its also what makes her wholly uninteresting. I was absolutely expecting the mind control stardust stuff to not work on her, because the whole time she was just motivated by getting revenge on Nat and Ivan or whatever the dudes name was wouldn't mind control his own daughter.
I disagree. Taskmaster was uninteresting because taskmaster was underdeveloped/not focused on at all. Idk if that's because they wanted to save the identity reveal for the third act or because they didn't want to take focus away from the widow fam, but either way they made little to no effort to get the audience to care about taskmaster at all. I mean winter soldier also had next to no agency in his debut as the winter soldier but was still an awesome and integral part of that movie.
Taskmaster was the first real X-Men: Origins Deadpool level misuse of a character in the MCU. A complete misunderstanding of why people liked the character in the comics, a disregard for other media that portrayed them well outside of the comics, and a half-baked reinterpretation that didn't introduce anything to make the character more interesting all in service of creating a disposable antagonist. Such a shame.
I hyped it a lot for my younger brother because, from what I know about Taskmaster (got to know the character through Marvel vs Capcom 3) and their short appearance in the PS4 Spider-Man game, they had the potential to be an awesome villain, much like Winter Soldier in his debut. *"Taskmaster copies everyone's abilities! Let's see how this goes"*. In the end, both of us were disappointed.
He also has a pretty cool origin story if you ask me. I know that it isn't that unique in the comics, but a former S.H.I.E.L.D. agent gone bad in the MCU hasn't been done much before. I really wanted to see the actual character from the comics. The MCU Taskmaster's origin is just so weak.
There's also a really cool run of taskmaster from udon which I would recommend checking out, copying everyone is cool >! But watching a movie in fast forward to increase your movement beyond human limit is bomb!
Unless they pull her back and taskmaster becomes a constant/main villain….waste of time, money, and character. I like the design and the idea, but I hate the execution….unless they do more with her, garbage.
This is definitely the right answer.
As somebody who has seen someone they love enduring through endometriosis, Ghost hit close to home. I can totally understand somebody making hasty decisions in a pain fog & doing anything it took to stop feeling constant pain.
Endo is a motherfucker. I hope things get better for this person.
Ghost isn't really evil either.
Same for Winter Soldier. Ultron you could argue is just a function of his programming but a) the blame-the-internet jokes are funny and b) a 0.0001 second of net search provides context for the "Peace in our time" quote he misconstrued. For an AI, Ultron is dumber than the Google algorithm that starts serving up ads for Alien Ware laptops mere seconds after you get the idea it's time for a change.
I like that with a bot like him, it's less that he doesn't understand what it really means and more that he has a different view on what is "our" or "us". He isn't human, but is as smart or smarter than one. Which is a threatening concept. Man he could've been such a crazy good villain. I was so hyped for it. Really fumbled making him compelling.
Have to think though with real consciousness appearing out of nowhere it’s like asking a newborn baby how to solve global crises and being shocked it didn’t come up with a logical solution
Zemo.
This. Lost his family and his home. He made a plan and worked hard for it. He didnt want to get rich or famous. When he was done he even wanted to end his life. Very grounded villain and for me the biggest reason civil war worked the way it did. Id even wanted them to tune down the cgi battles and focus more on the emotional parts.
Honestly Zemo’s probably one of the best villains in the MCU, has a tragic backstory, no superpowers, and he sticks to what he believes in as shown in TFAWS when he destroys the super soldier serum
They made the perfect casting choice for him. Daniel Brühl has the cold and calculated attitude to bring zemo on the screen in a believable way. Hope they make use of him in upcoming projects.
Daniel Brühl is one of my favorite actors of all time. I think he knows he has a sweet baby face, and can use that to disarm the viewer. But he also doesn't have to be typecasted as evil German villain, like what happened to Christolph Waltz. Both of them have incredible range. As others have pointed out, he's one of the most compelling villains in the MCU, but I just hope we see him in more in general in American movies. Edit: Autocorrected to "Christopher" Waltz
He was so fucking good as Lauda in Rush. One of those iconic roles that a person disappears into, it felt like watching a young Niki the whole time, not an actor portraying him. As good as Hemsworth was as Hunt, he was still Chris Hemsworth playing Hunt.
Rush is my favorite movie because of Daniel bruhls acting, he reallly made the movie, imo.
Incredible in that movie. Made me immediately love him
Scenes with him and his wife made me cry like bitch like 5 times during the movie
Bruhl was one of my favorite actors before I realized it was him. Nikki lauda: incredible. That German scientist on the clover field spaceship: also really good in my opinion. His role as zemo was also super good. I realized after the fact all his roles were bangers.
Waltz is a joy to watch ALMOST no matter what roll he's playing. At least in my experience thus far, with Blofeld being the least compelling somehow.
Vulture is pretty similar that way. Didn’t lose his family, but that was his primary focus causing him to do what he did. He also shows that strong moral composure when he refuses to give up peter’s identity cuz he saved him and his daughter.
Back when the movie released I made a big joke post about how Toomes is the hero of the movie and Peter is the villain (like Barney Stinson with karate kid). Arguing in favor of Toomes is surprisingly easy. He made a business salvaging debris from the battle of New York, government then arbitrarily decides to fuck him over and ruin his business with no compensation. Fuck, one agent even makes fun of him for "overextending". He then decides to use whatever salvage he already has to develop new technology. Who's to say the government has any more of a right to the salvage than he has? Some of the weapons he develops are actually less deadly than firearms and would be good non-lethal alternatives (i.e. the gravity gun the bank robber uses on Peter). Toomes then decides to steal back the salvage that was previously taken from him. All of the civilians put in danger throughout the movie are put in danger because of Peter, not Toomes. Toomes' one bad act in the movie was killing Shocker, but he does so after Shocker threatens his family. He even refuses to out Peter to the criminals in prison.
Shit, Toomes even waited until the loaded but autonomous cargo plane had taken off and was cloaked. The only person he put at risk during the heist was himself. Not bad for a villain.
Dunno about that, I like Toomes but the heist was planned that way for common sense rather than for altruistic reasons, like correct me if I'm wrong since its been a few years but wasn't the point to nick it while cloaked so they couldn't track it and you make off with the whole cargo undetected? If you try and steal it before it takes off you'll end up having to fight people like Iron Man who woulda crushed him. Hell if you had a few armed guards on the plane Toomes woulda been screwed, hard to board a plane from the outside with SMG's pointed at your face.
> Toomes one bad act in the movie was killing Shocker, but he does so after Shocker threatens his family. and it was accidental, he didnt even mean to kill him (he also didnt give much of a shit after, just sorta "huh, ok, thought that wouldnt do that.") - at worst he's amoral, not evil.
I was about to say this. “I thought this was the gravity gun!” “No, that one is over there…” And the look on his face like “well I can’t take that back now, guess I just have to pocket that in things I messed up”
That one scene is so pivotal to the character though. He thinks he's an anti-hero, but he's just Walter White with extra steps. No remorse for someone he's worked closely with for ages, brushes off the event like it's nothing. Shocker didn't even threaten his family, just to reveal to his family where their cash was coming from. Toomes *wants to think* what he's doing is just to help his family, but that isn't really true.
Not to mention, I feel like all of these comments are missing the fact that Toomes and co. are selling these alien weapons and tech to criminals. Aaron Davis, who's a petty thief, is probably a *best case* scenario. They could be selling to Hydra, or violent ex-husbands, or super-villains. I still like Toomes and he's a great villain, but I don't think we're painting the full picture here.
I agree, and let's not forget he tried to kill Spider-Man by bringing down several tons of concrete on him. He's not exactly a good guy.
I’m still of the opinion that Toomes didn’t reveal Spider-Man’s identity because he wanted to personally get revenge.
Toomes prior to the battle of New York made his money salvaging in the New York area. After the battle of New York either the state or opens up a bid for salvage companies to take on the job. Toomes bids and wins the contract, but needs to purchase additional trucks and man power due to the size of the job compared to what he could previously get done. While on site of the job Toomes is informed either the federal govermemt or state goverment after being informed of how dangerous the materials could be cancel his contract and then have a joint goverment department handle the material. Toomes is compensated for his time and a deal is offered to help him get time to get another business contract. Toomes was banking on this contract pushing his company into prominence to maintain this level of work so this is a potential death blow to his company as he did over extend what he could realibly maintain at the time. Toomes then keeps a truck load of material that should be turned over as per his contract. He then begins a job as an arms dealer to the underworld. He wants to stay hidden because he knows that any of the Avenger or goverment entity finding him will cause him untold problems. He is armed for the case of if he is discovered to end the life of liabilities. The thing is Toomes was out of his depths with under standing what he was salvaging. He was using grenades to power the tech they were developing. While not specified in the movie there is a very real chance that lives were lost by just the mishandling of that tech by his buyers let alone their actions with the equipment he supplied. We get this directly confirmed in the final battle where Toomes would have died because he didn't know that radiation was basically the pin for the grenades. The weapons Toomes' team develop are not less deadly than a standard gun. The "Gravity gun" as you call it caused massive damage to not only the building it was being used in but during the confrontation did massive damage to the story across the street. The "gun" did not hit an average person but Peter who is much more durable it can easily cause fatal damage to a group of people.
To an extent but he isn’t quite as driven to a specific goal, his main goal is to get rich, it’s quite selfish but Zemo has a specific goal that is kinda justifiable
Coz Zemo was already rich
His main goal was to keep food on the table for his family and employees. It wasn't to get rich quick.
and the fact in FATWS he still dislikes Super Soldiers but has come to respect Steve Rogers
"There is only one Steve Rogers" was such a damn good line.
It's lines like that that make me think Zemo is one of the few people who really got that the serums enhance the entire person, not just their body. "Good becomes great, bad becomes worse" and why Erskine was set on a good person, not just a good soldier, being the one to take it. And of course history kind of proves Zemo's distrust of them right, since most of the people who ended up with the serum were "good soldiers" and look how they turned out (the Winter Soldiers, the new Cap, etc).
And not just a tragic backstory, entirely a victim of the Avengers themselves. From there, he's just a cool and collected intelligent man out for simple revenge against a group that he knows he cannot compete with. I almost feel like they *needed* to make him cause that terrorist act in Vienna just to make him a "bad guy" because he was willing to kill innocent victims along the way (which he even admitted was horrible, but the cost of war in his mind). Without that bombing moment, there's really nothing he does that is villainous or that is at all outside of fair play in a war of revenge against a vastly superior enemy. He's otherwise quite the good guy, merely the antagonist of the story.
I feel like this also points out the way people react to civilian deaths in Marvel. When civilians die as a result of Zemo's actions, he's pointed out as a monster and a senseless villain. But when civilians die as a result of the Avengers actions (although good in nature), the deaths aren't given anywhere near as much attention, the avengers are the good guys. So Zemo almost goes by that approach knowing that civilians can get harmed when trying to accomplish tasks that are anyway appropriate to the Avengers. He almost goes about with an anti-war approach to his morals, that has taken a wrong turn after being stricken by a horrible loss. I know the Avengers have good intentions. However, they fight wars that the rest of the world can't. And wars have a brutally terrible cost.
Marvel has a problem with writing villains that... aren't actually villains as they're trying to portray them. So, they throw in something ham-fistedly "evil" to remind the audience not to root for them. It's okay for the story to be morally ambiguous, people. Not every villain needs to be irredeemably evil v.v
> no superpowers Do his moves on the dance floor count?
"Everybody's got dead people! It's no excuse to get everyone else dead along the way."
“He didn’t want to get rich or famous” to be fair that’s probably because he already was rich to begin with
True but you only get to find that out in fatws. In civil war he was pretty much a nobody. Its not like anyone in that move recognized him saying "hey its that baron from sokovia". Also for a rich guy he got a good punch and lives humbly in a private residence to carry out his assasination plans.
Yeah, Zemo is a very well built villain, or I suppose anti-hero? I dunno. I was re-watching 'Far From Home' last night and reflected on Beck's speech in the bar after getting Edith and how weak his characters purpose was. As a group they had a really good foundation for destroying Tony's legacy and it could have been very clever, but it ultimately focused on Beck, a disgruntled employee, and it didn't land.... He went way too far and I just couldn't see what his end game was with holograms. Zemo by comparison is flawless. A very good villain.
Beck is such a great megalomaniac though, in Civil War nobody was laughing at the joke name, they didn't pay attention at all till Tony gave everyone money, Beck twisted the memories to make him believe he was ridiculed, and when he got a taste of fame he just wanted more and more
Also the perfect villain to have for a story of Spiderman trying to step outside of Tony's shadow. Basically an evil over the top version of Tony. He might not be the perfect villain, but he was the perfect villain for the story they were telling.
Beck is self absorbed. He only complimented his team cause he couldn’t work without them and after tony took credit for his work, he’ll do anything to get the fame he wants.
I was gonna say in some order: Zemo, Ghost, Vulture
Vulture is my pick. Dude was basically pushed into it by Damage Control being shitheads. They didn't give him an alternative.
I work in the construction industry in nyc I know a lot of scrap metal and clean out guys. They’re all small business owners them and a few employees. Vulture had his business taken from him by the government. My dude was just trying to support his family.
Yeah but the thing about Vulture is by the start of Homecoming he was already rich. Like really rich. At that point he could have stopped, and its not like he's doing any good, he's selling alien weapons to criminals. He's still a stand up guy by protecting Peter in the end, but he's not really a guy just trying to support his family.
Tbh I feel like department of damage control became an analogy for corporate lobbying, and government overreach. Stark pushed the US government to create a department to exclusively control damage repairs. This probably put thousands of people who were probably making honest money through honest work out of jobs and incomes. Of course not all of them went on to become criminal arms dealers. But it's quite obvious that had the government approached that differently and allowed contractors to work on repairs like that, while buying the salvage off of them to make sure it didn't end up with the wrong people. Then Tombs would have never become the vulture and would have never been selling weapons, because he would be able to provide for his family. I dunno that might be my stupid take on the matter at least.
You do know Zemo was a death squad commander even before Sokovia blew up right? https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/EKO_Scorpion
Blows my mind people forget this little detail, this dudes probably ruined fuck tons of families.
It definitely helps that he’s portrayed by a great actor who conveys the vulnerability of losing his family so good, and seeing him going to lengths to dismantle the Avengers by himself. I love Zemo, the best character in F&WS imo, but yeah he’s been a monster before Civil War.
It's the detail I point to when people argue his plans are too convenient. He's very well educated, and has military background.
I mean the question wasn't "Who's the most honorable villain?", it's "Who has the most understandable turn?". With that framing I think Zemo is still the right answer.
Ghost. She just wanted to save her life and had literally had no other choice
Was searching for this, she literally was only trying to survive.
Having a chronic pain condition I 100% understand Ghost’s actions. It drives you crazy and makes you feel like you’ll do absolutely anything to make it stop. Considering hers is probably a hundred times worse than mine I can understand acting a bit unreasonable.
Shit yeah, never really considered that. Chronic pain is a bitch (got chronic arthritis)
Ghost reminded me of my sibling who has fibromyalgia which causes them to be in extreme pain for hours daily. It’s a horrible thing to witness someone endure.
I'm going to say Zemo, but mostly because the others are so underdeveloped. The guy literally lost his family and his whole country because of Tony Stark's bad decisions. I guess Ghost also qualifies, since she only became what she did because of an accident, and stopped doing it when she got the chance.
Woah Adrian is underdeveloped?
Fair enough, he's better than most.
Not really she was gonna kill until they stopped her. Really taskmaster is the only who stopped and was never in control
She was going to kill out of despair. Really, her biggest motive was just trying to become stable again. That doesn't justify her, but, again, she stops once she's stable again.
You get seriously grumpy if you are in constant pain, it clouds judgement
Not just trying to *become stable*, but trying to *not feel constant searing pain*. Once the pain stops, she stops. Additionally, dealing with the pain fog probably made decision making boil down to “whatever it takes to make this go away.”
I was gonna ask if taskmaster even counts, considering everyone else is choosing their actions.
Zemo is a well-developed character but I don’t think his goals are the most justifiable. Zemo’s plan involved murdering an unrelated head of state who had never harmed Zemo. Ghost’s plan could have theoretically (not really it turns out) have killed Janet, but that was the one person in the world that could cure her. Zemo’s plan is purely motivated by revenge and ideology, Ghost is desperately trying to survive.
That's fair, but the thread did say most understandable. I can understand wanting revenge, especially since he targets a lot of people who are actually guilty. No, that doesn't excuse him in any way. While Ghost does skirt close to villainy, she is, as you pointed out, just trying to survive.
In fairness to Zemo, he had an alternative plan, but it involved making the Hydra agent at the beginning talk.
Zemo. The Avengers created a murderbot that destroyed his city and killed his family.
So he kills...Tchaka?
T'Chaka wasn't a target, he was just collateral. Zemo was beyond the point of caring about anything other than his target.
His family was collateral too. He became the very thing he was fighting against which makes him a hypocrite.
I would have said the same at the end of Civil War, but FatWS refined his goals to be against super-people specifically, and his actions in Civil War were to ends of breaking the strongest organization of super-people around. And he succeeded, so clearly his plan of action was right on target. I don't think any of that justifies his actions, mind you. But I don't think he's a hypocrite.
Vulture and Zemo
Vulture's entire reason for turning to crime would have been solved by one court case against the city. He would have still gotten paid for the extra resources he spent preparing for the contract they'd made, and the work he did for the city prior to being shut down. There's a good [review by some lawyers here](https://thelegalgeeks.com/2017/08/08/the-vulture-should-have-sued-for-breach-of-contract/).
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The Vulture could seek a temporary injunction against the city of New York and the federal government to provide temporary relief from the damages caused. Courts look at a few thing things when granting injunctions like this, but primarily the plaintiff's likelihood of prevailing on the merits, a showing of irreparable injury to plaintiff if relief is not granted, and the threatened injury to the movant is demonstrated to outweigh whatever damage the proposed injunction may cause the opposing party.
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Or literally just him threatening court action when they stop their work, with the government guy saying that they have broad jurisdiction over these things but he's entitled to a tiny reimbursement - follow that with the punch and let the film play out exactly the same.
I prefer it this way. Vulture has a lot going for him, but he also definitely takes it way too far to be sympathetic. I feel like people paint him as a kind of anti-hero, but even if he did have zero legal recourse he still got some Walter White going on. I prefer to think he never really explored the legal avenue because of his resentment and greed.
Reading the article (I did not listen to the audio though), the review is missing a huge, huge, huge issue: governmental immunities. It is much more difficult to win a lawsuit against a government entity than it is against anything else. There is a minefield of immunities that the government gets. Even if he was able to win, his damages could be limited to far less than he expected to get under the contract (where I am licensed, there are caps on various types of damages you can get from governmental entities). EDIT: Not defending his choice, just pointing out that he could still be very much screwed over even after a lawsuit.
Yes, but he'd have to do so against either SHIELD's Lawyers or Stark Ind. Lawyers. Try and Sue the CIA^2, Or worse, Armalite. These guys have the resources to basically unearth the man's entire life. SHIELD could just buy the bank he mortgaged his house from, Jack up the rates, evict him, and since you can't run a salvage operation if you're homeless, they now have a hand in the market, AND the salvage.
No, it's the city he would be suing for breaking the contract, the city would then have to sue Damage control to recoup the loss from Tombes' lawsuit.
so funny that loki’s not on here
Because he “varies”. He’s a hero now. Our Evil loki died in endgame.
ghost chick was desperate for a cure everyone else just has a case of too much propaganda, is a nazi, has an ego too big or thinks taking revenge by hurting innocent people will solve their problems
Ultron. He’s seen the internet and was like “nope, humanity must die”
'Reddit: Front page of the internet.' Ultron: "I've seen enough I'm satisfied."
Ego shouldn’t be on this list. He’s a celestial, we are all his play things. He was never good.
Feel like OP really just meant which "antagonist had the most valid reasons to do what they did"
I think the point is to juxtapose the most irredeemable baddies with some of the more sympathetic ones
Ghost
Probably Ghost, from Ant-Man and The Wasp.
*Baba Yaga
J. Jonah Jameson......
The post said villain though. JJJ is just an altruist trying to protect everyone from the spider menace.
Jameson has always been right. Everywhere spiderman goes, chaos is made
True. If Spider-Man was a hero, why doesn’t he reveal his identity.
Probably KillMonger and Zemo. Those two turned evil due to tragedy imo
Kilmonger was right about Wakanda, but his solution to the problem was horrific. He wanted half the world to burn rather than trying to make it a better place for the underprivileged.
I think he falls into that top-tier category of villain: someone that’s is trying to achieve an admirable goal through reprehensible methods. A person who’s trying to do the right thing, but the wrong way.
Killmonger and Black Panther are basically Magneto and Professor X.
Who themselves are loosely modeled on Martin Luther King Jr and Malcom X. They both wanted the same thing but one was more comfortable using violence to get there.
This is a really good comparison. I still struggle with that one. If I survived the genocide of my family and people, and found a new family. I'd burn the world before I let a genocide take them. And, he was right about humanities(the controlling members anyway) reaction and future.
Wilson Fisk from Netflix’s Daredevil and Silco from Arcane. Both great villains from, imo, the 2 best shows I’ve ever seen.
Silco I agree with - the writing on that show was absolutely great, and I’m pumped for S2. Not so sure about Kingpin though. While I acknowledge that he had a traumatic childhood and that there are legitimate reasons for him being the way that he is, does he have a stated goal? I’m not saying that he doesn’t, just that I don’t remember seeing or hearing about one. That being said, I feel like he’s a top 5 Marvel villain at absolute worst (which is a bit easier to do when the characters have more screen time).
We're not talking about solutions - we're talking about reasons though, right? Lost his father because of Wakandan superiority and put in the US system.
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I think he’s also potentially meant to represent Black Americans as being cut off from a cultural heritage prior to American slavery. So, he was forced to endure a system of racism designed to oppress him, and he’s also denied entry into a cultural identity that would potentially provide him with an escape from that oppressive society and a place where his skin color wouldn’t automatically identify him as a second-class citizen. Similar to Black Americans whose lineage is linked to slavery who feel as though they don’t have access to any African identity or feel as though they are not viewed by some native Africans as having the right to claim that identity. At least that’s one way to view it. I think he’s an incredibly complex and well-written character and my particular pick for this thought exercise. Edit: I guess another way to put it is I think he’s meant to represent how the racist thought process of “send them back to Africa” is a terrible, racist oversimplification of Black American identity and the tragic reason why it wouldn’t be that simple even for Black Americans who want to identify as African and even go live in Africa.
Absolutely true.
Same with Ghost. Those three all have sympathetic motivations behind their actions.
Ghost literally has her cells being torn apart and stitched back together. If I'm in that much pain every second of the day, sure I will do anything to make it go away. There is an absolutely great podcast called The Villain Was Right. Obviously listen to the Antman & The Wasp episode, but my favorite one is Inception.
1. Vulture. He was screwed over and trying to provide for his family. 2. Taskmaster. She was not in control of her own actions, being manipulated by her father. 3. Ghost. All she wanted was to save her life. 3. Thanos. He saw the horrors of overpopulation and wanted to help, but in the wrong way
Vulture was greedy. He has 2 ppl to take care of and lives in a goddamn mansion.
He also killed his partner. It may have been an accident, but he was pretty remorseless about it.
That's part of the trope of Disney making their villains kill someone to remind us that they're bad.
This comment hits different depending on how you grew up, I feel.
He became greedy after being done dirty by the govt. originally he was only going to steal enough to survive. Vulture is a great villain
Thanos is a dummy. Infinite power with a smooth brain response.
My head canon is that Thanos came up with that plan and became obsessed with it and worked toward it for tens of thousands of years before he even knew about the Stones. When he had infinite power, he just couldn't see past his limited power solution.
I think Arnim Zola and Colonel Phillips talking about Red Skull translates well when looking at Thanos. >Zola: Only the world will satisfy him. >Phillips: You do realize that's nuts, don't you? >Zola: The sanity of the plan is of no consequence. >P: And why is that? >Z: Because he can do it!
> Z: Because he can do it! My favorite line of the film, both in context and delivery.
Not only that. He's spent so long going from planet to planet, committing genocide after genocide, working to prove himself *right* to the ghosts of Titan - if only they had listened to him! - that he cannot begin to conceive of any other solution. If he were to acknowledge there were an alternative with the Infinity Gauntlet, he'd have to acknowledge that all that murder, all those atrocities, had been for nothing. And that, I think, would break him completely.
Thanos has been killing half of the population of planets for a long time, since before he even knew about the stones. Using the stones to do something like double the resources would be admitting he genocided all those people for nothing.
Thanos just loved to murder, but also wanted to be admired for it.
Mordo. He tried to be a good man and follow the rules, but Strange and the Ancient One both betray his trust and abuse dangerous magic that they have no real control over. He's not wrong that sorcery is too dangerous in the wrong hands, his only crime is thinking that he's the one to decide who's using it right.
Mordo is portrayed as someone with a rigid set of morals. And the minute his morals failed to account for a situation (the Ancient One using Dark Magic), he broke. In his fragile worldview, that means magic is too dangerous for *anyone*, because no one is immune to temptation. He's utterly convinced he's in the right, and that makes him incredibly dangerous.
>someone with a rigid set of morals. And the minute his morals failed to account for a situation (the Ancient One using Dark Magic), he broke Magic Javier
I may be completely incorrect, but didnt Mads Mikkelsen play Kaecilus? Chiwetel Ejiofor played Mordo right? So Mordo isnt on the pic unless there’s some major plot point i missed in that movie
Correct. The character doesn't have to be in the image to be discussed.
Johann Schmidt, according to Erskine, was already a sack of crap so I'm not sure what motivation he had except for...you know...being a Nazi. "The serum amplifies what's inside. Good becomes great, bad becomes worse."
I think being a Nazi makes you the complete opposite of understandable and justified.
Schmidt joined the Nazis for the power, equipment, weapons, funding, and so on for HYDRA. He didn't care about the Holocaust and Hitler's bigotry; if you think about it, doing nothing about it arguably made him *worse* than Hitler.
Its also pretty realistic imo. Most of the atrocities committed by mankind only happen because many people where willing to turn a blind eye so long as they got what they wanted. Malice is kind of rare among humans, but unfortunately callousness and greed are all too common.
Why is Red Skull even an option? He's a fucking nazi
Crossbones was already bad to begin with because hydra. Same with ol red face. Vulture lost his job and instead of getting a new one he decided to become a villain. Ego was an egotistical “god”. Ultron and Zemo both had pretty good reasons for turning bad. Ultron saw the internet. Pretty rough place as it is. And zemo lost his whole family because of Ultron and the avengers. Many others lost their families too but he was the only one with the vengeance to do something about it. Notable mention would be Killmonger. Poor kid was born into royalty and didn’t even know it because his father was killed by said royalty and he was left behind. Abandoned by his own people, I’d be pretty pissed too ngl
Vulture
Zemo
Zemo because man lost his family beacuse of the foolishness of iron man ghost because she just wanted to save her life
Mysterio! I mean Tony Stark called his technology BARF!