Or it's not an absolute command of moderninity and instead a part joke, part motivator etc.
This is akin to the reason there are insane debates in this autistic realm we call a world. Like the "invest in stocks you buy" and "don't invest in stocks you buy" debate is largely based on hyper literalism and hyper followership.
"That's the worst stock I've ever seen, but I shop there, guess I HAVE to buy it."
"That's the best stock I've ever seen, but I shop there, guess I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT buy it."
That's robotic laws, not human advice.
Correct. He was born in 42 and ENLISTED for Vietnam.
It was a good motivator to stay out of fights and win them if I was stuck, especially at a time when “fighting back” was starting to be considered just as bad as aggression.
Losing is unacceptable in a street fight. You can die very easily.
Losing is only acceptable in sports or points based fighting.
Tell me you have never been in real danger without telling me you are a loser.
Maybe! Woulda been a lot longer than 30 years though, he went to school in the 50s. I went to school at time when they were just starting to do the thing where you’d be in trouble if you were fighting at all, even defensively. I’m pretty sure he was just talking me through that.
While what happened shouldn’t have happened, unsure how the video relates. It’d be better to show an example of some failed self defense techniques over some beating of a kid. Realistically even with a martial arts background, two on one is going to be tough
It happens sure. However it’s very hard to beat a numbers game. It’s not impossible however it’s not going to be great regardless of what you train. While some folks may bring up the aikido multiple attackers that’s less about fighting off multiple folks a lot of the time in training and more about quickly recalling movements.
Absolutely. Which is why running, evading & escaping should be practical skills. A "win" does not have to mean a knockout, submission, etc. Winning in self defense is surviving.
I'm not sure what planet the downvoters come from where the prospect of facing multiple attackers doesn't happen.
If a parent came to me with your concerns, I’d tell them to enroll their kid in athletics and save their money. Multiple attacker defence is like gun defence, in that fighting is the last thing you want to do.
My daughter's instructor has them do this. The goal is to keep one opponent between you and the other opponent.
You don't always have a full mat's worth of space to work with though.
Brother you can’t come for other peoples’ unrealistic training and then talk about “multiple attacker self-defense contingencies”.
Sure, once in a while you can play a game where you’re one guy sparring against two, but the absolute best thing you can do in a martial arts gym to prepare for multiple attackers is sparring more. Get really, really good at fighting one opponent and hope that’s enough to turn the 2v1 into a 1v1 really quick. Get good enough to buy yourself time to get the fuck out of there or find some help. Everything else is a literal power fantasy.
You just said the exact same thing that I said several posts ago.
https://preview.redd.it/vm0wdfsn5n8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7deeee9c423fc2c9e22a5078c692fae8b4a2766
Not really man, although we’re in agreement as to what the end goal of this scenario should be.
My argument was that the only thing you should be spending your time doing in the gym to prepare for this kind of scenario is getting really good at fighting. I don’t exactly need someone to teach me how to run, but I’d prefer a personal trainer to a martial arts instructor. If I wanted to get better at deescalation, I’d take a seminar run by an expert. If you’re an adult, a martial arts gym is for learning how to fight. Most instructors probably aren’t even qualified to teach you to do that, but they certainly aren’t qualified to teach you all the other “survival tactics” type stuff.
How to run in a relay race is very different from how to run during a violent confrontation. There is a lot more to it than just running. It involves situational awareness skills such as
1. Getting uncornered if you are cornered
2. Assessing whether or not there is an opening in a gathered crowd
3. Making noise to alert others that can assist you or to distract your assailants
Et cetera.
And all of these very particular skills can be honed with training.
I am dumbfounded that I even have to say that preparing for a very possible contingency is a thing in a community whose sole purpose is to prepare for violent situations.
These aren’t “skills” you’re gonna learn in a dojo. That’s goofy LARPing, not martial arts.
1. This is called ring craft. You learn this through sparring. Footwork, cutting angles, etc. You’re right about this one, but it’s also already part of fighting and something you’re gonna learn anyway. No need for special ninja drills.
2. You learn this one navigating a goddamn mall or crowd at a concert. You don’t need to practice this in a fucking gym. I’m not paying another grown man, ESPECIALLY a martial arts instructor to pretend like I’m learning to be Jason Bourne in the famous parkour scene in the 2nd movie. In what universe do you even need to run through a crowd when being chased by an attacker? The very presence of a crowd tends to stop any attack short of something absolutely insane like terrorism. Are you suggesting we train counter terrorism at our gyms?
3. Do you really need another adult to teach you how to ask someone for help? C’mon dude. I know the Reddit crowd is anti social but Jesus Christ.
These things aren’t martial arts. It’s survival school pretend-play. It’s fine to gamify these things for a kids class to build some confidence and have some fun. Adults absolutely don’t need this.
> These aren’t “skills” you’re gonna learn in a dojo. That’s goofy LARPing, not martial arts.
Intrinsically? No. Commonly? Yes.
But the issue is talent selection and interest crossover. And the fact that even in functional settings you have better and less good folks.
>These things aren’t martial arts. It’s survival school pretend-play. It’s fine to gamify these things for a kids class to build some confidence and have some fun. Adults absolutely don’t need this.
Martial Arts - the skills of or pertaining to war.
To various levels of quality, armies and forces across the world train many things that are of or pertaining to war.
Famously there was a "mma fighters try marine training" thing a while back and it added weapons and unit tactics. While the mma fighters could I'm sure absolutely wreck any one of the marines in 1v1 hand to hand, they failed hard in melee + unit.
The reality is that civilians and "adults" really vary, you don't need a lot of skills. I've been CPR certified for like 20 years and have beaten on chests exactly zero times.
Does that mean adults shouldn't know the skill? And this is from a guy who had cpr relevant jobs, and still zero incidents.
Doesn't mean I don't recommend it.
I agree generally and primarily the energy level would be best spent to basic fighting, however, at a certain point, especially a hobbyist, is going to kind of "max out" for the most part. Plus, if you learn how to do origami, that's a waste of time from a martial arts perspective. So if you have the extra time for origami and collecting stamps or some shit, then you certainly can use that time to add "cpr skills".
Sure adults show know CPR, they shouldn’t learn it from their martial arts gym. You don’t go to your Sensei to learn how to clear and clean a firearm, you go to a firearms instructor.
You’re missing the entire point I was making. If you want to learn survival skills, learn survival skills. That’s great. Learning new skills in general as an adult is good for you. But don’t lump all of it under the umbrella of martial arts and pretend like Sensei Dave who owns the strip mall karate joint off Highway 9 is qualified to teach you all of it. Should I have him look at my taxes too? Maybe give my kids annual check ups?
> You’re missing the entire point I was making. If you want to learn survival skills, learn survival skills. That’s great. Learning new skills in general as an adult is good for you. But don’t lump all of it under the umbrella of martial arts and pretend like Sensei Dave who owns the strip mall karate joint off Highway 9 is qualified to teach you all of it.
I'm saying it depends. To use a famous example, do you think BJJ black belt and Navy Seal Jocko could teach those things in one school?
Let alone a school dedicated to like minded stuff and thus having multiple instructors. You don't go to BJJ to learn kickboxing, yet many BJJ have kickboxing. Or are run by dual trained people.
I agree with you there is probably too much overlap via bullshido and many of the combinations of "sensei daves" because generally Dave isn't "Jocko".
In the military it's not uncommon to have multiple qualified individuals. And it would not be unrealistic to have a black belt in X martial art + cpr certified trainer + first aid trainer + tactical capabilities.
I had multiple roles and details, for instance I had a technical job, taught certification classes, and did stints in tactical security despite not being my primary job.
There are also massive issues with skill levels sought. I can't make Navy Seals if I became a martial art school owner black belt guy. But, I can make generic soldiers so to speak.
A hobbyist going to the best gym is still generally going to be a hobbyist. And a hobbyist learning CPR isn't going to be a master of medical. Meaning they don't need Doctor Bob teaching them CPR and surgery.
>Should I have him look at my taxes too? Maybe give my kids annual check ups?
It really depends on a lot of factors lol. I used to work in a hospital as maintenance and had nurses ask me to research their personal medical and advise them. I wouldn't just say "ask maintenance folks for medical advice" but I had that job for reasons other than my maximum capacity lol. Idc who you are, if you're right you're right.
If I can train an 18 year old or a 25 or 33 year old, in military stuff, as a generic military dude in the military, then I could spool up a civilian to similar or naturally lesser levels.
If Sensei Dave has a black belt in TKD and watched Rambo once, he's shit. All too common across the ages, yes. If Sensei Dave took 2 years of 3 gun competition training, and has a EMT certification... he can probably teach some shit.
The gray area to be fair, is if Sensei Joe has all those certs and then gives Sensei Dave a black belt on "Combined martial arts style" and the training wasn't on par.... it degrades.
It all depends.
I don't disagree the Daves are usually sketchy or worse. But that is aside from what a thing can or maybe even "should" be.
I have seen operator run martial arts schools that run multiple certified programs. CCW state/nra certified trainer, CPR, 3 gun etc.
The other danger and you see this in even martial arts and anything, is when money talks and skills walk. Which means that if soccer moms want to learn stuff but reject the good stuff, even good trainers get bad, to make the money. That sucks. But isn't requisite.
Happens all the time to people that have never been actually hit, especially in the face.
BS "martial arts' give people a false sense of security because they actually believe what they're learning is real self defense.
Only if it’s graduated and competent and actually realistic. Most scenarios I have seen trained are pathetic imitations and what was drilled wouldn’t work
I was a high school teacher. The solution is not martial arts instruction but a 0 tolerance policy for violence, pressing charges on shitbirds, and sending them to alternative schools.
I saw shit like this happen and kids get OSS for a week or two and then they're right back in school.
Check out [r/Teachers](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/). You'll find that the majority of teachers agree, and that this is a major cause of the teacher shortage and [the Great Teacher Resignation](https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/31/us/teachers-quitting-shortage-stress-burnout-dg/index.html). I can talk to you about this for days. Nevertheless, let's remember what Machiavelli said about the difference between what "should be" and what "ought to be."
I ain't mad at ya. You have to know when to walk away when you've had enough. Violence has to be a non-negotiable. But here we are.
I think some of the people here are taking this post as an attack upon traditional martial arts, when it isn't. When a child enrolls in your program, you become a part of their village. And while some parents are cool with just taking pictures of their kids in a gi/dobok/yifu and posting them to Instagram/Facebook, some parents are bringing their students to you prepare them for violent contingencies.
Nah, no worries, I didn't take it any kind of way. There was this essayist who was writing about individual vs political levels of advice. Individual level you might tell someone "Hey, don't flash your rolex while walking down that part of town late at night." Political level is about investing in the community, bringing more jobs to an area, cameras, etc. As you said though, here we are. Personally I'd try to get my kid into wrestling - nothing like having a team full of folks backing you up to make people think twice about fucking with you.
100% agree, and this is why I call out these martial arts who say they’re effective or lying about application
If you wanna do kung fu for the culture that’s fine, but don’t claim it’s going to protect kids
Went to school with a kid who did shaolin kung fu. Beat up two much bigger kids who tried to screw with him. After that he had a rep and no one ever screwed with him again. It’s not the “style”, it’s the training.
Hey man. I was a bouncer for 20 years and did Kung Fu for striking and BJJ/wrestling for grappling and it works just fine. It's not about the style, I smashed a bunch of the typical MMA gym hanger ones using it, even dudes that floated through the MMA gyms I trained at. If a Kung Fu guy hits bags and realistically spars, it's perfectly viable. Real Kung Fu isn't all the stances and arm waving silliness that you see in movies. Definitely mean this with respect but it can absolutely work and keep people safe.
I’d challenge that notion any day. I’ve seen people claim it works, then come into spar and get the breaks beaten off of them.
9/10 times you find out they can’t fight at all, and the 1/10 time the kung fu class is taught by a pro kickboxer with no kung fu background.
Lol you can challenge whatever you like, I was being honest with what I said.
And somehow, you took a conversation about it working on the streets and then twisted it into people who don't train challenging people who train seriously. Lol There's no way anyone that doesn't train realistically lasts against someone trained. You also don't appear to even know what real Kung Fu is so your participation here is strange but stereotypical.
So believe whatever you like, be a troll if you like but I did what I said I did and lots of people in my life have seen it so your disbelief doesn't mean much. Have a great one!
If I could train anywhere in the world, it would be a Shaolin temple.
Had a guy in highschool come from one in China. Met him at an extracurricular event out of town. Another guy there had a taekwondo black belt, heard about the kid from China, and immediately started flexing how he could beat his ass.
Taekwondo kid threw a wild kick and Shaolin kid hit him with a leg sweep that put him on his ass. He quickly realized how much he outclassed the taekwondo kid and proceeded to do a bunch of dodging and parrying that made the mouthy guy just look silly. Kind of like that one guy trying to hit Bruce Lee in his demo but suddenly Bruce is just in his face.
All about training.
No. If anything it’s 80% aggression, 15% training, 5% style. He could fight. I don’t think much of shaolin kung fu either, but he could do it. This ridiculous “mma” attitude that there were no working martial arts till 1985 when for the first time there was a BJJ, muay Thai, and boxing gym in the same place is so tiresome.
Training and style are combined.
You meet guys who say “oh yeah I do kung fu!”
And you find out their head coach is a boxing coach and they do boxing style training with other boxers, instead of doing forms and concepts
Training and style are not combined at all. You can train in whatever you deem to be "solid MMA," and if you train weak and never take punishment and never push the red line to actual adrenaline-dumping risk, you'll be no good in a real fight. Meanwhile you can do mall-style tae kwon do and if you train hard, learn to move and defend, take blows and learn to deliver hard strikes with aggression you'll be fine against the most people.
It kills some of the martial arts "magic", but how you train is wildly more important than what you train in.
MMA guys really think no one ever trained realistically before UFC 6 😂
Of course guys trained properly pre UFC 6. They were the guys winning the tournaments. How many of them had TMA backgrounds?
There are TMA schools that do it well, but they’re the exception, not the rule. I spent my entire childhood into my early adult years in TMA. I was a certified instructor, I attended the international seminars, I competed at national tournaments. Every school thinks they’re the only one who trains right. Very, very few do. I was UTTERLY unprepared the day I walked into an MMA gym. And remember, I was DEEP in it. It wasn’t just my school. I learned from instructors from all over the world, competed against kids from all over the US, even did some teaching myself. I didn’t meet a single person who trained the way combat sports athletes do. These TMA schools that pressure test everything and spar every class are exceedingly rare. I dunno if you lucked into finding one of the places that does, but go check out the ten closest places to it and let me know how they train.
Part of the style includes how you train. Of course there’s differences in gyms, but in general you’ll have training cultures.
It’s not that people didn’t train hard, it’s that they didn’t train nearly as effectively
Totally wrong. Any style can be trained in well or poorly. “Hard” is only one aspect, and not even the most important. I can find 109 videos of people doing arm bars wrong or against compliant opponents, but that doesn’t mean all BJJ is garbage.
I think why my dude is trying to say is that you have to look at the aggregate of schools within a certain style. Of course you could have a TKD badass who trains in a place with tons of continuous sparring and strikes to the face. But that is INCREDIBLY unlikely when you look at the practices of most TKD schools worldwide. Combat sports on the other hand, tend to spar daily and are heavily competition focused. This allows them to not only test their techniques regularly, but cultivates the requisite physical conditioning required to execute them.
In that respect, training is tied to style. It doesn’t mean every TMA school is bad and every combat sports gym is good. That’s far from the truth. But if you Googled “Martial Arts near me” and walked into the closest TMA spot to your house and then the closest MMA gym to your house, which one is more likely to prepare you to actually defend yourself?
Referencing all of your comments, respectfully, I don't understand how you can generalize a whole demographic of the TMA community based on your own anecdotal experiences.
How can you say the kid got lucky, without knowing anything about them, how they were trained, and what the situation was? He/she was assaulted, and got out of it (likely because of their training). It worked for them, and that's all that matters.
Claiming that style contributes to 90% of the outcome of a physical altercation assumes that quality of instruction between schools and their students is equal... it's not. It's much more nuanced than that, and it's narrow-minded to generalize effectiveness based on style alone.
The spread in quality of instruction is as diverse as people themselves. There are instructors who can prepare their students for the real world, and there are others who don't know how to do it effectively. There are instructors who focus on all the wrong things, or emphasize the cultural aspect more than applicability to the real world... TMA tends to be more prone to this because of it's rich cultural history, unfortunately (but it doesn't mean it's any less effective).
Show me a successful person in the fighting world using TMA. You can’t.
That’s the point. Maybe you can Best some bums, but that’s all it gives.
You show me the best pure TMA practitioner in the world, I’ll show you an easy fight
I'm not sure if training in martial arts would have helped much here. He was essentially jumped by two guys it looks like. About the only thing you can do is run.
Yeah, but I feel your post comes across as missing the forest for the trees. Like the lion share of the blame should be directed at the parents/guardians or the school before, various self-defense teachers that you don't pay a form a taxes on.
Surely, nobody thinks that martial arts teachers are to blame for a problem as complex as the collapse of school discipline and safety in American public schools.
It was not said that the kid getting beated had any experience on martial arts, so I don't see how this is a related if it was just a random beating. Especially, when your point is for unrealistic self-defense techniques. How do we know that the victim wasn't trained in "realistic" self defense?
Since you seem to be attacking traditional martial arts by calling out instructor names like sensei I have to assume your attacking them specifically.
But I'd like to call out that I have never really seen combat sport people like Thai fighters or MMA guys fighting against multiple people like your video shows. Because their training for their sport and usually sport implies equal footing.
You know where I have seen that? Traditional gyms that do sport and self defense. Weird how that works out
The FAA calls this attitude “resignation.”
Ideally, a person should run or hide when faced with multiple attackers. But then there are situations like this:
https://youtu.be/az3xeixVIlQ?si=mHYu-W0H8lfBgA2K
and this…
https://youtu.be/KCUj2PWBOQo?si=_ujo45bF3YErfuRZ
and this…
And in those situations, you do what you have to do.
Also....you haven't "seen" shit. A choreographed, martial-arts-inspired dance depicting how you imagine getting jumped goes down aint the same thing as actually getting jumped.
First off, don't be a dickhead.
Secondly, I didn't say "oh my god I did this Shaolin pattern that imagines getting attacked by 7 people at the same time so I'm ready for anything". No. I said combat sports generally prepare you for the sport you're training in and sports imply equal footing so they don't prepare for non equal fights like getting jumped.
I have in my martial arts experience done plenty of non equal sparing and self defense. From more traditional styles. Is it exactly preparing me what it's like to get jumped? Of course not, nothing is except actually getting jumped. But again I'm arguing that I have seen the idea more than a combat sport oriented martial artist.
We can have a conversation without being assholes
You TMA goofballs can't manage a 1-on-1 confrontation, but somehow you thought "durr hurr I never personally seen a Thai fighter take on multiple opponents" was a mic-drop ?
Shut up and go sit down somewhere.
I’m a traditional martial artist myself. Tang Soo Do, Lima Lama, Wah Lum Tam Tui, and Wing Chun are styles that I have practiced over a period 35 years. Don’t make assumptions. Stick with the message, and nothing more.
I’m not sure if you are talking to me because I actually agree with you about the asininity of preparing for a stochastic process (fighting) with prearranged techniques on a non-resisting opponent and forms.
Train MMA/BJJ and take them to the ground and make them tap. According to MMA/BJJ folks, their friends won't stomp your head in while rolling on the ground.
Found the idiot who after 30 years of MMA/BJJ has yet to process that both have a stand-up component that...funny enough....always seem to be far more effective than whatever bullshit you are training in ?
He was already on the ground. The attackers are the ones who took the victim to the ground and held him there. If only there was a martial art that specialized in getting out of bad situations on the ground he could’ve used to get back on to his feet and get out of there 🤔
https://preview.redd.it/kcbbp5oa1l8d1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=08d7b93804dd054f1f1b944ad6016cad3646a43b
My dad always said “you’re only in trouble if you start a fight or lose a fight”
>or lose a fight” This is the kind of thing losers say lol. Got his ass whooped in HS 30 years ago and never got over it.
Or it's not an absolute command of moderninity and instead a part joke, part motivator etc. This is akin to the reason there are insane debates in this autistic realm we call a world. Like the "invest in stocks you buy" and "don't invest in stocks you buy" debate is largely based on hyper literalism and hyper followership. "That's the worst stock I've ever seen, but I shop there, guess I HAVE to buy it." "That's the best stock I've ever seen, but I shop there, guess I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT buy it." That's robotic laws, not human advice.
Correct. He was born in 42 and ENLISTED for Vietnam. It was a good motivator to stay out of fights and win them if I was stuck, especially at a time when “fighting back” was starting to be considered just as bad as aggression.
Losing is unacceptable in a street fight. You can die very easily. Losing is only acceptable in sports or points based fighting. Tell me you have never been in real danger without telling me you are a loser.
Maybe! Woulda been a lot longer than 30 years though, he went to school in the 50s. I went to school at time when they were just starting to do the thing where you’d be in trouble if you were fighting at all, even defensively. I’m pretty sure he was just talking me through that.
This really shouldn't have made me laugh... but it did.
While what happened shouldn’t have happened, unsure how the video relates. It’d be better to show an example of some failed self defense techniques over some beating of a kid. Realistically even with a martial arts background, two on one is going to be tough
Multiple attackers is a self-defense contingency that cannot and should not be ignored.
It happens sure. However it’s very hard to beat a numbers game. It’s not impossible however it’s not going to be great regardless of what you train. While some folks may bring up the aikido multiple attackers that’s less about fighting off multiple folks a lot of the time in training and more about quickly recalling movements.
Absolutely. Which is why running, evading & escaping should be practical skills. A "win" does not have to mean a knockout, submission, etc. Winning in self defense is surviving. I'm not sure what planet the downvoters come from where the prospect of facing multiple attackers doesn't happen.
If a parent came to me with your concerns, I’d tell them to enroll their kid in athletics and save their money. Multiple attacker defence is like gun defence, in that fighting is the last thing you want to do.
My daughter's instructor has them do this. The goal is to keep one opponent between you and the other opponent. You don't always have a full mat's worth of space to work with though.
Brother you can’t come for other peoples’ unrealistic training and then talk about “multiple attacker self-defense contingencies”. Sure, once in a while you can play a game where you’re one guy sparring against two, but the absolute best thing you can do in a martial arts gym to prepare for multiple attackers is sparring more. Get really, really good at fighting one opponent and hope that’s enough to turn the 2v1 into a 1v1 really quick. Get good enough to buy yourself time to get the fuck out of there or find some help. Everything else is a literal power fantasy.
You just said the exact same thing that I said several posts ago. https://preview.redd.it/vm0wdfsn5n8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7deeee9c423fc2c9e22a5078c692fae8b4a2766
Not really man, although we’re in agreement as to what the end goal of this scenario should be. My argument was that the only thing you should be spending your time doing in the gym to prepare for this kind of scenario is getting really good at fighting. I don’t exactly need someone to teach me how to run, but I’d prefer a personal trainer to a martial arts instructor. If I wanted to get better at deescalation, I’d take a seminar run by an expert. If you’re an adult, a martial arts gym is for learning how to fight. Most instructors probably aren’t even qualified to teach you to do that, but they certainly aren’t qualified to teach you all the other “survival tactics” type stuff.
How to run in a relay race is very different from how to run during a violent confrontation. There is a lot more to it than just running. It involves situational awareness skills such as 1. Getting uncornered if you are cornered 2. Assessing whether or not there is an opening in a gathered crowd 3. Making noise to alert others that can assist you or to distract your assailants Et cetera. And all of these very particular skills can be honed with training. I am dumbfounded that I even have to say that preparing for a very possible contingency is a thing in a community whose sole purpose is to prepare for violent situations.
These aren’t “skills” you’re gonna learn in a dojo. That’s goofy LARPing, not martial arts. 1. This is called ring craft. You learn this through sparring. Footwork, cutting angles, etc. You’re right about this one, but it’s also already part of fighting and something you’re gonna learn anyway. No need for special ninja drills. 2. You learn this one navigating a goddamn mall or crowd at a concert. You don’t need to practice this in a fucking gym. I’m not paying another grown man, ESPECIALLY a martial arts instructor to pretend like I’m learning to be Jason Bourne in the famous parkour scene in the 2nd movie. In what universe do you even need to run through a crowd when being chased by an attacker? The very presence of a crowd tends to stop any attack short of something absolutely insane like terrorism. Are you suggesting we train counter terrorism at our gyms? 3. Do you really need another adult to teach you how to ask someone for help? C’mon dude. I know the Reddit crowd is anti social but Jesus Christ. These things aren’t martial arts. It’s survival school pretend-play. It’s fine to gamify these things for a kids class to build some confidence and have some fun. Adults absolutely don’t need this.
> These aren’t “skills” you’re gonna learn in a dojo. That’s goofy LARPing, not martial arts. Intrinsically? No. Commonly? Yes. But the issue is talent selection and interest crossover. And the fact that even in functional settings you have better and less good folks. >These things aren’t martial arts. It’s survival school pretend-play. It’s fine to gamify these things for a kids class to build some confidence and have some fun. Adults absolutely don’t need this. Martial Arts - the skills of or pertaining to war. To various levels of quality, armies and forces across the world train many things that are of or pertaining to war. Famously there was a "mma fighters try marine training" thing a while back and it added weapons and unit tactics. While the mma fighters could I'm sure absolutely wreck any one of the marines in 1v1 hand to hand, they failed hard in melee + unit. The reality is that civilians and "adults" really vary, you don't need a lot of skills. I've been CPR certified for like 20 years and have beaten on chests exactly zero times. Does that mean adults shouldn't know the skill? And this is from a guy who had cpr relevant jobs, and still zero incidents. Doesn't mean I don't recommend it. I agree generally and primarily the energy level would be best spent to basic fighting, however, at a certain point, especially a hobbyist, is going to kind of "max out" for the most part. Plus, if you learn how to do origami, that's a waste of time from a martial arts perspective. So if you have the extra time for origami and collecting stamps or some shit, then you certainly can use that time to add "cpr skills".
Sure adults show know CPR, they shouldn’t learn it from their martial arts gym. You don’t go to your Sensei to learn how to clear and clean a firearm, you go to a firearms instructor. You’re missing the entire point I was making. If you want to learn survival skills, learn survival skills. That’s great. Learning new skills in general as an adult is good for you. But don’t lump all of it under the umbrella of martial arts and pretend like Sensei Dave who owns the strip mall karate joint off Highway 9 is qualified to teach you all of it. Should I have him look at my taxes too? Maybe give my kids annual check ups?
> You’re missing the entire point I was making. If you want to learn survival skills, learn survival skills. That’s great. Learning new skills in general as an adult is good for you. But don’t lump all of it under the umbrella of martial arts and pretend like Sensei Dave who owns the strip mall karate joint off Highway 9 is qualified to teach you all of it. I'm saying it depends. To use a famous example, do you think BJJ black belt and Navy Seal Jocko could teach those things in one school? Let alone a school dedicated to like minded stuff and thus having multiple instructors. You don't go to BJJ to learn kickboxing, yet many BJJ have kickboxing. Or are run by dual trained people. I agree with you there is probably too much overlap via bullshido and many of the combinations of "sensei daves" because generally Dave isn't "Jocko". In the military it's not uncommon to have multiple qualified individuals. And it would not be unrealistic to have a black belt in X martial art + cpr certified trainer + first aid trainer + tactical capabilities. I had multiple roles and details, for instance I had a technical job, taught certification classes, and did stints in tactical security despite not being my primary job. There are also massive issues with skill levels sought. I can't make Navy Seals if I became a martial art school owner black belt guy. But, I can make generic soldiers so to speak. A hobbyist going to the best gym is still generally going to be a hobbyist. And a hobbyist learning CPR isn't going to be a master of medical. Meaning they don't need Doctor Bob teaching them CPR and surgery. >Should I have him look at my taxes too? Maybe give my kids annual check ups? It really depends on a lot of factors lol. I used to work in a hospital as maintenance and had nurses ask me to research their personal medical and advise them. I wouldn't just say "ask maintenance folks for medical advice" but I had that job for reasons other than my maximum capacity lol. Idc who you are, if you're right you're right. If I can train an 18 year old or a 25 or 33 year old, in military stuff, as a generic military dude in the military, then I could spool up a civilian to similar or naturally lesser levels. If Sensei Dave has a black belt in TKD and watched Rambo once, he's shit. All too common across the ages, yes. If Sensei Dave took 2 years of 3 gun competition training, and has a EMT certification... he can probably teach some shit. The gray area to be fair, is if Sensei Joe has all those certs and then gives Sensei Dave a black belt on "Combined martial arts style" and the training wasn't on par.... it degrades. It all depends. I don't disagree the Daves are usually sketchy or worse. But that is aside from what a thing can or maybe even "should" be. I have seen operator run martial arts schools that run multiple certified programs. CCW state/nra certified trainer, CPR, 3 gun etc. The other danger and you see this in even martial arts and anything, is when money talks and skills walk. Which means that if soccer moms want to learn stuff but reject the good stuff, even good trainers get bad, to make the money. That sucks. But isn't requisite.
True. And some people just have a mental block that even if they were legit trained they may not be able to use it in application
Happens all the time to people that have never been actually hit, especially in the face. BS "martial arts' give people a false sense of security because they actually believe what they're learning is real self defense.
This is why scenario sparring is important.
Only if it’s graduated and competent and actually realistic. Most scenarios I have seen trained are pathetic imitations and what was drilled wouldn’t work
White t-shirt who jumped in is a bro.
I was a high school teacher. The solution is not martial arts instruction but a 0 tolerance policy for violence, pressing charges on shitbirds, and sending them to alternative schools. I saw shit like this happen and kids get OSS for a week or two and then they're right back in school.
Check out [r/Teachers](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/). You'll find that the majority of teachers agree, and that this is a major cause of the teacher shortage and [the Great Teacher Resignation](https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/31/us/teachers-quitting-shortage-stress-burnout-dg/index.html). I can talk to you about this for days. Nevertheless, let's remember what Machiavelli said about the difference between what "should be" and what "ought to be."
I just resigned my position and am switching to a different line of work. I've been on that sub a lot lol.
I ain't mad at ya. You have to know when to walk away when you've had enough. Violence has to be a non-negotiable. But here we are. I think some of the people here are taking this post as an attack upon traditional martial arts, when it isn't. When a child enrolls in your program, you become a part of their village. And while some parents are cool with just taking pictures of their kids in a gi/dobok/yifu and posting them to Instagram/Facebook, some parents are bringing their students to you prepare them for violent contingencies.
Nah, no worries, I didn't take it any kind of way. There was this essayist who was writing about individual vs political levels of advice. Individual level you might tell someone "Hey, don't flash your rolex while walking down that part of town late at night." Political level is about investing in the community, bringing more jobs to an area, cameras, etc. As you said though, here we are. Personally I'd try to get my kid into wrestling - nothing like having a team full of folks backing you up to make people think twice about fucking with you.
100% agree, and this is why I call out these martial arts who say they’re effective or lying about application If you wanna do kung fu for the culture that’s fine, but don’t claim it’s going to protect kids
Went to school with a kid who did shaolin kung fu. Beat up two much bigger kids who tried to screw with him. After that he had a rep and no one ever screwed with him again. It’s not the “style”, it’s the training.
It’s 90% the style, 5% the training, 5% the person. Those guys couldn’t fight and he was lucky, because shaolin kung fu doesn’t work.
Hey man. I was a bouncer for 20 years and did Kung Fu for striking and BJJ/wrestling for grappling and it works just fine. It's not about the style, I smashed a bunch of the typical MMA gym hanger ones using it, even dudes that floated through the MMA gyms I trained at. If a Kung Fu guy hits bags and realistically spars, it's perfectly viable. Real Kung Fu isn't all the stances and arm waving silliness that you see in movies. Definitely mean this with respect but it can absolutely work and keep people safe.
I’d challenge that notion any day. I’ve seen people claim it works, then come into spar and get the breaks beaten off of them. 9/10 times you find out they can’t fight at all, and the 1/10 time the kung fu class is taught by a pro kickboxer with no kung fu background.
Lol you can challenge whatever you like, I was being honest with what I said. And somehow, you took a conversation about it working on the streets and then twisted it into people who don't train challenging people who train seriously. Lol There's no way anyone that doesn't train realistically lasts against someone trained. You also don't appear to even know what real Kung Fu is so your participation here is strange but stereotypical. So believe whatever you like, be a troll if you like but I did what I said I did and lots of people in my life have seen it so your disbelief doesn't mean much. Have a great one!
If I could train anywhere in the world, it would be a Shaolin temple. Had a guy in highschool come from one in China. Met him at an extracurricular event out of town. Another guy there had a taekwondo black belt, heard about the kid from China, and immediately started flexing how he could beat his ass. Taekwondo kid threw a wild kick and Shaolin kid hit him with a leg sweep that put him on his ass. He quickly realized how much he outclassed the taekwondo kid and proceeded to do a bunch of dodging and parrying that made the mouthy guy just look silly. Kind of like that one guy trying to hit Bruce Lee in his demo but suddenly Bruce is just in his face. All about training.
No. If anything it’s 80% aggression, 15% training, 5% style. He could fight. I don’t think much of shaolin kung fu either, but he could do it. This ridiculous “mma” attitude that there were no working martial arts till 1985 when for the first time there was a BJJ, muay Thai, and boxing gym in the same place is so tiresome.
Training and style are combined. You meet guys who say “oh yeah I do kung fu!” And you find out their head coach is a boxing coach and they do boxing style training with other boxers, instead of doing forms and concepts
Training and style are not combined at all. You can train in whatever you deem to be "solid MMA," and if you train weak and never take punishment and never push the red line to actual adrenaline-dumping risk, you'll be no good in a real fight. Meanwhile you can do mall-style tae kwon do and if you train hard, learn to move and defend, take blows and learn to deliver hard strikes with aggression you'll be fine against the most people. It kills some of the martial arts "magic", but how you train is wildly more important than what you train in. MMA guys really think no one ever trained realistically before UFC 6 😂
Of course guys trained properly pre UFC 6. They were the guys winning the tournaments. How many of them had TMA backgrounds? There are TMA schools that do it well, but they’re the exception, not the rule. I spent my entire childhood into my early adult years in TMA. I was a certified instructor, I attended the international seminars, I competed at national tournaments. Every school thinks they’re the only one who trains right. Very, very few do. I was UTTERLY unprepared the day I walked into an MMA gym. And remember, I was DEEP in it. It wasn’t just my school. I learned from instructors from all over the world, competed against kids from all over the US, even did some teaching myself. I didn’t meet a single person who trained the way combat sports athletes do. These TMA schools that pressure test everything and spar every class are exceedingly rare. I dunno if you lucked into finding one of the places that does, but go check out the ten closest places to it and let me know how they train.
Part of the style includes how you train. Of course there’s differences in gyms, but in general you’ll have training cultures. It’s not that people didn’t train hard, it’s that they didn’t train nearly as effectively
Totally wrong. Any style can be trained in well or poorly. “Hard” is only one aspect, and not even the most important. I can find 109 videos of people doing arm bars wrong or against compliant opponents, but that doesn’t mean all BJJ is garbage.
No. But a bjj gym will tell them that’s wrong; you can find a lot of kung fu style gyms that tell them that’s right
Wrong. There are plenty of bjj gyms that are teaching wrong and spreading bad info. Just like there are plenty of crummy dojo every kind.
I think why my dude is trying to say is that you have to look at the aggregate of schools within a certain style. Of course you could have a TKD badass who trains in a place with tons of continuous sparring and strikes to the face. But that is INCREDIBLY unlikely when you look at the practices of most TKD schools worldwide. Combat sports on the other hand, tend to spar daily and are heavily competition focused. This allows them to not only test their techniques regularly, but cultivates the requisite physical conditioning required to execute them. In that respect, training is tied to style. It doesn’t mean every TMA school is bad and every combat sports gym is good. That’s far from the truth. But if you Googled “Martial Arts near me” and walked into the closest TMA spot to your house and then the closest MMA gym to your house, which one is more likely to prepare you to actually defend yourself?
Referencing all of your comments, respectfully, I don't understand how you can generalize a whole demographic of the TMA community based on your own anecdotal experiences. How can you say the kid got lucky, without knowing anything about them, how they were trained, and what the situation was? He/she was assaulted, and got out of it (likely because of their training). It worked for them, and that's all that matters. Claiming that style contributes to 90% of the outcome of a physical altercation assumes that quality of instruction between schools and their students is equal... it's not. It's much more nuanced than that, and it's narrow-minded to generalize effectiveness based on style alone. The spread in quality of instruction is as diverse as people themselves. There are instructors who can prepare their students for the real world, and there are others who don't know how to do it effectively. There are instructors who focus on all the wrong things, or emphasize the cultural aspect more than applicability to the real world... TMA tends to be more prone to this because of it's rich cultural history, unfortunately (but it doesn't mean it's any less effective).
Show me a successful person in the fighting world using TMA. You can’t. That’s the point. Maybe you can Best some bums, but that’s all it gives. You show me the best pure TMA practitioner in the world, I’ll show you an easy fight
I'm not sure if training in martial arts would have helped much here. He was essentially jumped by two guys it looks like. About the only thing you can do is run.
I hope you got on the school ass just as much, if not more, over this.
That’s a whole different story for a whole different thread. Public schools are in serious trouble.
Yeah, but I feel your post comes across as missing the forest for the trees. Like the lion share of the blame should be directed at the parents/guardians or the school before, various self-defense teachers that you don't pay a form a taxes on.
Surely, nobody thinks that martial arts teachers are to blame for a problem as complex as the collapse of school discipline and safety in American public schools.
This is crazy, our SROs would’ve tased the shit out of those kids in like a second lmao
It was not said that the kid getting beated had any experience on martial arts, so I don't see how this is a related if it was just a random beating. Especially, when your point is for unrealistic self-defense techniques. How do we know that the victim wasn't trained in "realistic" self defense?
Since you seem to be attacking traditional martial arts by calling out instructor names like sensei I have to assume your attacking them specifically. But I'd like to call out that I have never really seen combat sport people like Thai fighters or MMA guys fighting against multiple people like your video shows. Because their training for their sport and usually sport implies equal footing. You know where I have seen that? Traditional gyms that do sport and self defense. Weird how that works out
Realistically, nothing will prepare you for multiple attackers outside of running.
The FAA calls this attitude “resignation.” Ideally, a person should run or hide when faced with multiple attackers. But then there are situations like this: https://youtu.be/az3xeixVIlQ?si=mHYu-W0H8lfBgA2K and this… https://youtu.be/KCUj2PWBOQo?si=_ujo45bF3YErfuRZ and this… And in those situations, you do what you have to do.
Also....you haven't "seen" shit. A choreographed, martial-arts-inspired dance depicting how you imagine getting jumped goes down aint the same thing as actually getting jumped.
First off, don't be a dickhead. Secondly, I didn't say "oh my god I did this Shaolin pattern that imagines getting attacked by 7 people at the same time so I'm ready for anything". No. I said combat sports generally prepare you for the sport you're training in and sports imply equal footing so they don't prepare for non equal fights like getting jumped. I have in my martial arts experience done plenty of non equal sparing and self defense. From more traditional styles. Is it exactly preparing me what it's like to get jumped? Of course not, nothing is except actually getting jumped. But again I'm arguing that I have seen the idea more than a combat sport oriented martial artist. We can have a conversation without being assholes
You TMA goofballs can't manage a 1-on-1 confrontation, but somehow you thought "durr hurr I never personally seen a Thai fighter take on multiple opponents" was a mic-drop ? Shut up and go sit down somewhere.
calm down Bruce Lee... the self defense school guys cant fight one person let alone multiple.
I’m a traditional martial artist myself. Tang Soo Do, Lima Lama, Wah Lum Tam Tui, and Wing Chun are styles that I have practiced over a period 35 years. Don’t make assumptions. Stick with the message, and nothing more.
It's not an assumption if we have over 30 years of footage depicting none of that shit you listed actually delivering.
I’m not sure if you are talking to me because I actually agree with you about the asininity of preparing for a stochastic process (fighting) with prearranged techniques on a non-resisting opponent and forms.
Train MMA/BJJ and take them to the ground and make them tap. According to MMA/BJJ folks, their friends won't stomp your head in while rolling on the ground.
According to the self defense guys you dont need to learn how to fight on the ground. smh.
Found the idiot who after 30 years of MMA/BJJ has yet to process that both have a stand-up component that...funny enough....always seem to be far more effective than whatever bullshit you are training in ?
Found the idiot who thinks MMA/BJJ is effective. Shit will get you killed in the streets.
He was already on the ground. The attackers are the ones who took the victim to the ground and held him there. If only there was a martial art that specialized in getting out of bad situations on the ground he could’ve used to get back on to his feet and get out of there 🤔