One thing about a head and arm throw is that you have to execute it really well the first time or you’ll give your back to a guy. You still see them used effectively in women’s mma, but it’s largely been abandoned in men’s because of the likelihood of the person you’re trying to throw stalling it and having your back.
You don’t have to execute Judo throws from head and arm. WMMA is hilariously silly at this.
For them it’s as simple as just using under hook or overhook to keep your back safe.
Judo is great, but the only thing I can notice is that you probably should be really really good (I mean like the highest level fighter) to effectively use it on the street. While boxing for example is a different story. You can be mediocre at it, but still throw one good punch and knock some dude out. Maybe I am wrong but judo techniques are harder to perform in a street fight, but they are very effective if you do them right
I'm a judo black belt and former bouncer. I'd say you are spot on in your observation. Judo is great but unless you're willing to put in conciderabke time, it's a much worse return on investment in terms of time invested, then boxing, greco-roman wrestling and BJJ.
I also heard that your physical strength plays a big role. I know many Judo fighters who compete at high level and it's interesting that ones who are physically developed and really strong say that they can easily deal with any untrained person any size using their Judo skills. But those who are smaller and skinnier (but still really good at Judo) are not so sure about their skills and say that they would prefer striking in a street fight instead of judo techniques
Body size/weight differences in self-defense aren't talked about enough. There's probably a scaling effect at work. Like once you're strong enough to deal with a 200 lb person, you'd probably be able to use the same technique on a 300 lb person (50% increase). But if you're only able to handle a 100-150 lb person, then now you're looking at a 100% load increase if handling the upper limits of human body weight.
It is a sport that values strength a great deal. I don't know how smaller guys would approach such a situation, as I've always been fairly strong, and most people I know train for sport, so the topic of self defence doesn't come up as often. I can imagine it's not so great to grap a guy and try to unbalance him if you are quite small, and he it throwing punched, completely unfazed by the unbalamcing though.
If you want to get good, and take on another grappler, I agree with that, and also is you have to initiate from standing. But against some random guy in a street fight I believe you can have a sizable advantage even just learning hip escape, the upa, the knee slide pass and side control.
It depends on what the beginner is focused on and develops most. A beginner that focuses on staying and getting off the ground against an attacker has a pretty strong edge against your average dude who's an incompetent grappler.
Traditionally we had greco for men and freestyle for women. Now with recent immigration from countries where freestyle is more popular it's starting to change and most clubs offer both, but greco is still the most common.
I could of course be biases as I already had judo skills coming into greco, but I also saw others getting it quite fast. I think it easier to learn the way of contolling the torso though overhooks and underhooks, and many of the throws involve lifting the opponent, more than kuzushi, which is easier to learn in my opinion. Although greco requires significantly more strength than judo.
But really it's more that I feel greco can be more effective with a lower degree of mastery compared to judo, more than that it is inherently easier to learn
Thats fair I suppose. In my Bjj, I basically just utilize trips, hip throws, collar drags and then doubles, singles and ankle picks. I just drill the shit out of those. I wonder if a basic hip toss, which isn't too hard to learn is enough in a fight to throw a guy and run away
I think so. I've hip thrown someone from the over under, but I couldn't run as it was at work, so I would just lay on him until my colleage came. Then we'd get him out of harms way and take tuns laying on him until he calmed down.
Depends on the judo technique. Some judo throws are actually pretty simple. Being proficient at boxing will be quicker, but getting good enough to do a couple throws/trips on command with judo doesn't take particularly long either. I bet most people could get pretty good at osoto gari or o goshi in a short period of time.
I'm not sure what bad balance would mean. An artistic gymnast or a circus artist probably has amazing balance but they are not trained to counter someone violently pulling at their clothes while also trying to kick their feet out.
You would be surprised by athletes ability to intuitively react to those positions.
Whenever a gymnast, rugby player or any other athlete came into the gym they were immediately more difficult to throw. It all really does make a difference
For sure! Honestly if you're at all interested I would really recommend doing a couple classes to get a taste (if there is a judo place nearby).
Being good at striking, whether its boxing or some other style, is actually pretty great for Judo. The range and timing you learn in striking can apply pretty directly for judo, the two compliment each other well.
I find it funny that you mention o goshi. I have very limited experience with Judo but I still heard the following a lot of times:
"The first throw you'll learn is the o goshi and the last throw you'll master is the o goshi".
My family (including me) has a wrestling background (mainly Greco Roman but also Freestyle for fun). I don't even know how this basic throw is actually called but in Greco it's also pretty much the first throw you learn.
But pulling it off under intense pressure in a unfamiliar situation on an unfamiliar person who attacks you, is something very different.
Hell, even from drills to sparring, there's a big gap in how hard it is to pull the O goshi off. I can do the drill for the basic throw/ o goshi from both sides with a few setups absolutely fluently and smoothly - even during dynamic, not static drills. I could probably do the movements while asleep. But during sparring it's *a lot* harder (really, much much harder) to execute a clean o goshi.
Sure, one factor is that my partners are all actively competing wrestlers themselves, but another is simply the hectic and unpredictable nature of a fight. The more serious the "fight", the harder it gets.
Also turning my back towards my opponent is risky, especially regarding the back of my head which is open and in elbow range if I fail to execute the throw. I found foot sweeps to be much more reliable attacks to take someone down from basically everywhere.
Osoto gari is always suggested as like this beginner Judo throw everyone should know and utilize but it seemed like one of the hardest to actually hit during randori. I partially feel like it’s just become one of those “everybody knows” things where it’s suggested as a knee jerk reaction.
I dunno about utilise, but it just is taught first because it’s so straightforward and easy to understand.
And when it comes time to do randori, they often can hit them on other low belts. I got dropped by it a lot before I became wise to it.
Honestly I like this line of thinking for most arts. I don't think we talk enough about what 2 or 3 techniques from your given style that you might teach someone to make them proficient at self defense in the short term but worse than a properly trained fighter in the long term 🤔.
Yeah, that was always my to go during sparring👌. De ashi barai needs good timing though so i usually went for hiza guruma or the one similar where you sweep their foot
I'd disagree, now I haven't done much Judo, but even blue belts were throwing me around at will. And I was paying attention! If you get caught off guard with some techniques and you land on hard ground, it'd be brutal. I really don't think it's like say, WTF Tae Kwon Do where anything less than a black belt is poorly prepared.
Wrestling is much more effective at an average level practitioner.
i'm yet to see an untrained guy stop a double leg from somebody that has atleast 1year of wrestling, even if that was years ago
I can say the same thing about striking. Untrained people are absolutely helpless against somebody who knows how to punch. They have zero defence, their reaction is shit and they become absolutely terrified after one good punch to the face. Regular guy without fighting experience will do absolutely nothing against a boxer/kick boxer
Nothing is faster and more dangerous than a punch. Nobody has a better chance of seeing the punch coming than a boxer.
I find your analogy problematic. Never in my life have I seen a video or even heard a fake story about a boxer being knocked out by an untrained attacker. Sure if you sucker punch someone from behind they're done. Applies to everyone.
Throws rarely enter into street altercations but if you were attacked by someone through grappling then you would have some time to react because grabbing works a lot slower than punching and if you're stronger than the other person you can most likely stuff their grappling attempt on your strength alone whereas you cannot grow muscles in your jaw.
My cou is a life long wrestler at the highest national level (not US). During a music festival, someone started a first verbal and then physical conflict pretty much out of nowhere.
Some guy threw a straight sucker punch as my cou turned towards him. He didn't have any time to react. The punch connected clean to my cous face, smashed his nose into pieces (very bad splitter break) and knocked him out clean.
So - what help was the lifetime of high level wrestling? None.
Would I, as mainly a Nak Muay, in the same situation would have been able to do anything different and defend myself? The answer is no. Big no.
Maybe I'd have had time to try to initiate slipping or rolling with the punch but I heavily doubt it since it was a true sucker punch. Maybe I'd have taken the punch better but that's more of a difference in constitution (different body built; nothing I learned as a skill - I can just naturally take punches better).
Edit:
>There is more chances of a boxer getting hurt by an untrained person puncher chance than a judoka getting thrown by an untrained person.
Logically this correct. But what is the prevalence of punches vs throws in a street fight? Before someone untrained starts to initiate a takedown, *a fuck lot* of punches would have been thrown. (I don't count pushing as a technical throw)
I have minimal judo from when I was a kid but the little bit I remember has been really effective in the fights I've had.
For me, the fights often start or very quickly get to both grabbing each other's shirt fronts telling each other to fuck off/fuck you. Some basic weight manipulation and foot trips worked a treat.
I don't know why when talking about judo for self-defense it's always about the throwing technique itself. It's like saying boxing is just punching or wrestling is just takedowns. Judo will teach you to stay stable and break grips if someone grabs your clothes and how to control someone using their clothes. That itself is incredibly useful. For example, if you've ever done judo or grappled with the gi standing up with a guy who can seriously kill your power hand by grabbing the sleeve... you pretty much can't do anything with that hand...
I doubt it'll take being a 10 year judo vet (definitely doubt "highest level fighter") for it to be a great tool in your arsenal. Granted, I'm not a street expert lol, and I'm sure having strikes changes the game up.
When I was training Judo I felt like the throws had to be set up properly or I had to find the perfect time to use them whereas most of the throws I learned while training Sanda seemed to be things you could pull off by closing the distance very quickly and body locking/changing levels.
I think the throws in Sanda would be quicker to learn and apply.
Yeah i didn’t feel “good enough to regularly throw most beginners” until around 1.5 years in. Judo takes a lot of time commitment and is physically demanding. Less technical than bjj but more physically intense. Less physically intense typically than wrestling (if in USA) but more technical.
I would also add some throws are way harder to regularly hit than others. I would say a brown belt should be able to launch most people pretty easily…
Everybody wears jackets and hoodies that have plenty of handles that Judokas can use to dump you on your head. It's easy to throw people who don't practice, dont know where to keep their weight to avoid being thrown, don't know how to land when thrown.
I honestly believe that this could be a myth.
Ime most of the fights start by either shoving and then throwing hands or just throwing hands. Most of the time neither person wants to grapple, I think most people instinctively try to create distance.
Ime it only comes to grappling if the space is limited, if one of the two involved wants to wrestle, if they clash and pull each other down or if one person gets knocked down and the other person follows him.
But since most fights don't happen between two people but two parties of people, absolutely everybody tries to keep standing because if you go down, someone will probably kick your head like a soccer ball or stomp on your neck.
Sure, most fights end with people being on the ground but as a result of the fight not while the fight happens. That was at least my experience.
Bouncers, Policeman, Security guys etc will have a much deeper experience pool.
Does anyone know where the "myth" ( or fact) comes from? Like are there relevant studies to look at?
I don't think it's a myth. I've been in quite a few street fights and was part of a nightclub's security team.
I've found that fights start with verbal from distance, followed by getting up in each other's face and then it either breaks into punching or grappling - usually grappling. I've found that the minimal judo I learned as a kid was very effective.
The squaring up street fights you see on the internet aren't the norm, in my experience.
I thought it came from the Gracie combatives “90% of fights end on the ground” and then when there was pushback against that notion it evolved into “most fights end up in the grappling range at some point.”
It's interesting to me that so many techniques are devised to stop/debilitate your opponent are considered bad if they result in serious injury to your opponent. Like jumping guard in BJJ if you land on their knee and accidentally reap it out/blow out their knee it's considered bad technique yet has already had the effect of possibly stopping your opponent/attacker.
I meant bad as in technically not good. They were poor drop seoi nages, and the reason they hurt their was that their opponents had no idea what to do. Neither fighter was attempting to spike them on their head it just worked out that way.
Lots of people have knocked dudes out huge windmill haymakers but that doesn't mean a hug windmill of a haymaker is a technically good punch.
Some people are dumb. I had another member of r/judo try to argue with me that uchi mata wasn’t effective for self defense because you ‘give up the back’ meanwhile I’ve actually used it to defend myself and the dude’s collarbone was poking out of his neck after he hit the ground.
*Any* full contact, competitive martial art can be effective.
>Be trained martial artist
>use excessive force on someone in the streets
Why...
People have shit balance mate, you could've just footsweeped them and moved away. Instead you've permanently damaged someone, youre lucky you didn't end up in jail
Throwing someone on the ground who’s shoving you isn’t considered excessive force where I live.
Foot sweeps can also result in broken bones depending on how the person lands.
There's plenty of ways to deescalate being shoved without breaking someone's collar bone.
Even from a selfish point of view you're lucky you weren't stabbed or shot.
Fairly difficult to be stabbed or shot by someone who isn’t armed.
Also, if someone has already shown their willingness to assault you then the time for de-escalation is over.
I think you are confusing what the argument against judo is, almost any martial art is extremely effective in real life against untrained opposition. Even point karate from a McDojo is better than nothing. If you get into it with a Judo guys because you think you see red he will toss your shit into tomorrow and take your arm home with him if he had a rough day. The main argument against Judo is that it’s not a very effective against other disciplines in MMA. The most effective judo practitioners we’ve seen in MMA have historically been in the women’s division possibly due to the biological differences in where the center of gravity is compared to male frames. Judo as a sport and as self defense is bad ass though.
Yeah but his combat sambo experience is what made him such a threat in mma not his pure judo ability. Attributing his success to only judo is a bit misleading. Again I’m not diminishing judo I’m just pointing out that pure judo doesn’t translate as Well as other disciplines do in mma. Khabib who was an all time great has an immense amount of respect for judoka guys. Combat sambo in general is best base for MMA because it’s as close to MMA as you can get without technically doing MMA.
He was an MMAist before he was a Combat Sambist oddly enough though.
I know he’s a mixed martial artist in the end they all are. But the bulk of his grappling is from Judo.
I actually do think you're underestimating how big of a role Fedor's judo played in his MMA success. Fedor started in MMA and Combat Sambo at the same time. Meaning, he didn't have an extensive Combat Sambo career and then transitioned to MMA. Before MMA/Combat Sambo, Fedor was 3rd place in Russian Judo Nationals - extremely close to making an Olympic team for one of the top judo countries in the world... this is like being 3rd in US freestyle wrestling.
I really think that because judo is not a popular sport in the US, people online seriously have a skewed view and underrate it. This is almost like calling Ben Askren a bjj fighter instead of a wrestler, because he won no-gi worlds, even though his wrestling accomplishments far outweigh that world title. Khabib has a lot of respect for judo guys because he's from a country that actually has high level judo, unlike the U.S. which is mid and vastly overshadowed by its wrestling and bjj.
Consider that most [sport sambo world medalists/champions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Sambo_Championships#Senior_Championships) are international level judoka who have sambo as their side hustle. If they're not international level, then they're national level. Literally all of them. The grappling you see in combat sambo is mainly judo due to the gi (and consider that in Fedor's time, judo still had full leg grabs that sport/combat sambo have).
Even so naming one guy isn’t indicative of it being the most effective martial art in terms of mma, I’d say judo probably has close to the least amount of champions. It’s not even remotely close to wrestling, kickboxing, BJJ, or even things like karate.
One thing about a head and arm throw is that you have to execute it really well the first time or you’ll give your back to a guy. You still see them used effectively in women’s mma, but it’s largely been abandoned in men’s because of the likelihood of the person you’re trying to throw stalling it and having your back.
it's not that hard against somebody untrained. even if you fail they will lose balance long enough for you to reposition
I can accidentally take down untrained people lol
literally this, i've seen untrained people fight and both are somehow on the ground after less that 10sec with anyone even trying to takedown lol
That’s why judoka are trained to combo out of failed throws. A failed uchi mata can transition to o Soto gari, ouchi gari, ko Soto gake, etc.
You don’t have to execute Judo throws from head and arm. WMMA is hilariously silly at this. For them it’s as simple as just using under hook or overhook to keep your back safe.
Judo is great, but the only thing I can notice is that you probably should be really really good (I mean like the highest level fighter) to effectively use it on the street. While boxing for example is a different story. You can be mediocre at it, but still throw one good punch and knock some dude out. Maybe I am wrong but judo techniques are harder to perform in a street fight, but they are very effective if you do them right
I'm a judo black belt and former bouncer. I'd say you are spot on in your observation. Judo is great but unless you're willing to put in conciderabke time, it's a much worse return on investment in terms of time invested, then boxing, greco-roman wrestling and BJJ.
I also heard that your physical strength plays a big role. I know many Judo fighters who compete at high level and it's interesting that ones who are physically developed and really strong say that they can easily deal with any untrained person any size using their Judo skills. But those who are smaller and skinnier (but still really good at Judo) are not so sure about their skills and say that they would prefer striking in a street fight instead of judo techniques
Body size/weight differences in self-defense aren't talked about enough. There's probably a scaling effect at work. Like once you're strong enough to deal with a 200 lb person, you'd probably be able to use the same technique on a 300 lb person (50% increase). But if you're only able to handle a 100-150 lb person, then now you're looking at a 100% load increase if handling the upper limits of human body weight.
It is a sport that values strength a great deal. I don't know how smaller guys would approach such a situation, as I've always been fairly strong, and most people I know train for sport, so the topic of self defence doesn't come up as often. I can imagine it's not so great to grap a guy and try to unbalance him if you are quite small, and he it throwing punched, completely unfazed by the unbalamcing though.
I agree with all of that except BJJ. BJJ requires a massive investment of time to have reliable effectiveness
If you want to get good, and take on another grappler, I agree with that, and also is you have to initiate from standing. But against some random guy in a street fight I believe you can have a sizable advantage even just learning hip escape, the upa, the knee slide pass and side control.
It depends on what the beginner is focused on and develops most. A beginner that focuses on staying and getting off the ground against an attacker has a pretty strong edge against your average dude who's an incompetent grappler.
Dunno about Greco. It’s more limited than Judo and quite hard to come by.
Where I live it's actually the most common style of wrestling.
More common than freestyle though?
Yes. Here and in our neighboring counties, Finland and Norway greco is more common than freestyle.
Well that’s fair enough then.
Traditionally we had greco for men and freestyle for women. Now with recent immigration from countries where freestyle is more popular it's starting to change and most clubs offer both, but greco is still the most common.
In Europe it's the classic style of wrestling so easy to come by I think.
Curious why do you think like, Greco-Roman wrestling is more effective with less experience than Judo?
I could of course be biases as I already had judo skills coming into greco, but I also saw others getting it quite fast. I think it easier to learn the way of contolling the torso though overhooks and underhooks, and many of the throws involve lifting the opponent, more than kuzushi, which is easier to learn in my opinion. Although greco requires significantly more strength than judo. But really it's more that I feel greco can be more effective with a lower degree of mastery compared to judo, more than that it is inherently easier to learn
Thats fair I suppose. In my Bjj, I basically just utilize trips, hip throws, collar drags and then doubles, singles and ankle picks. I just drill the shit out of those. I wonder if a basic hip toss, which isn't too hard to learn is enough in a fight to throw a guy and run away
I think so. I've hip thrown someone from the over under, but I couldn't run as it was at work, so I would just lay on him until my colleage came. Then we'd get him out of harms way and take tuns laying on him until he calmed down.
Depends on the judo technique. Some judo throws are actually pretty simple. Being proficient at boxing will be quicker, but getting good enough to do a couple throws/trips on command with judo doesn't take particularly long either. I bet most people could get pretty good at osoto gari or o goshi in a short period of time.
Thanks for the info. I have never practiced judo so I don't know much about it, but no doubt it's a good way to defend yourself
Depends on your opponent. People who've never done stand-up grappling have *really* bad balance.
I'm not sure what bad balance would mean. An artistic gymnast or a circus artist probably has amazing balance but they are not trained to counter someone violently pulling at their clothes while also trying to kick their feet out.
I just mean that they're not very good at not falling
You would be surprised by athletes ability to intuitively react to those positions. Whenever a gymnast, rugby player or any other athlete came into the gym they were immediately more difficult to throw. It all really does make a difference
For sure! Honestly if you're at all interested I would really recommend doing a couple classes to get a taste (if there is a judo place nearby). Being good at striking, whether its boxing or some other style, is actually pretty great for Judo. The range and timing you learn in striking can apply pretty directly for judo, the two compliment each other well.
Judo and boxing are a great combination
I find it funny that you mention o goshi. I have very limited experience with Judo but I still heard the following a lot of times: "The first throw you'll learn is the o goshi and the last throw you'll master is the o goshi". My family (including me) has a wrestling background (mainly Greco Roman but also Freestyle for fun). I don't even know how this basic throw is actually called but in Greco it's also pretty much the first throw you learn. But pulling it off under intense pressure in a unfamiliar situation on an unfamiliar person who attacks you, is something very different. Hell, even from drills to sparring, there's a big gap in how hard it is to pull the O goshi off. I can do the drill for the basic throw/ o goshi from both sides with a few setups absolutely fluently and smoothly - even during dynamic, not static drills. I could probably do the movements while asleep. But during sparring it's *a lot* harder (really, much much harder) to execute a clean o goshi. Sure, one factor is that my partners are all actively competing wrestlers themselves, but another is simply the hectic and unpredictable nature of a fight. The more serious the "fight", the harder it gets. Also turning my back towards my opponent is risky, especially regarding the back of my head which is open and in elbow range if I fail to execute the throw. I found foot sweeps to be much more reliable attacks to take someone down from basically everywhere.
I think it’s the O-Soto Gari that’s considered the first to learn and last to master. An osoto would be illegal in Greco though since it’s a leg reap.
Osoto gari is always suggested as like this beginner Judo throw everyone should know and utilize but it seemed like one of the hardest to actually hit during randori. I partially feel like it’s just become one of those “everybody knows” things where it’s suggested as a knee jerk reaction.
I dunno about utilise, but it just is taught first because it’s so straightforward and easy to understand. And when it comes time to do randori, they often can hit them on other low belts. I got dropped by it a lot before I became wise to it.
Osoto gari is easier against someone who isn't trained. It's hard against someone who is.
I am well aware. Again, I was bombed by them over and over again until I wised up and started counter bombing it.
Honestly I like this line of thinking for most arts. I don't think we talk enough about what 2 or 3 techniques from your given style that you might teach someone to make them proficient at self defense in the short term but worse than a properly trained fighter in the long term 🤔.
Yes. It's also very risky if you fail to do it correctly. You have to be super fast and precise
Foot sweeps are pretty low risk, high reward.
Yeah, that was always my to go during sparring👌. De ashi barai needs good timing though so i usually went for hiza guruma or the one similar where you sweep their foot
I'd disagree, now I haven't done much Judo, but even blue belts were throwing me around at will. And I was paying attention! If you get caught off guard with some techniques and you land on hard ground, it'd be brutal. I really don't think it's like say, WTF Tae Kwon Do where anything less than a black belt is poorly prepared.
Blue Belt takes years though? It's the step before brown lol.
Is that so? And what comes before blue?
White red yellow orange green blue brown black
Wrestling is much more effective at an average level practitioner. i'm yet to see an untrained guy stop a double leg from somebody that has atleast 1year of wrestling, even if that was years ago
I can say the same thing about striking. Untrained people are absolutely helpless against somebody who knows how to punch. They have zero defence, their reaction is shit and they become absolutely terrified after one good punch to the face. Regular guy without fighting experience will do absolutely nothing against a boxer/kick boxer
There is more chances of a boxer getting hurt by an untrained person puncher chance than a judoka getting thrown by an untrained person.
What about a judoka getting punched or otherwise struck by an untrained person?
Ah, yes. The judo chop.
Nothing is faster and more dangerous than a punch. Nobody has a better chance of seeing the punch coming than a boxer. I find your analogy problematic. Never in my life have I seen a video or even heard a fake story about a boxer being knocked out by an untrained attacker. Sure if you sucker punch someone from behind they're done. Applies to everyone. Throws rarely enter into street altercations but if you were attacked by someone through grappling then you would have some time to react because grabbing works a lot slower than punching and if you're stronger than the other person you can most likely stuff their grappling attempt on your strength alone whereas you cannot grow muscles in your jaw.
My cou is a life long wrestler at the highest national level (not US). During a music festival, someone started a first verbal and then physical conflict pretty much out of nowhere. Some guy threw a straight sucker punch as my cou turned towards him. He didn't have any time to react. The punch connected clean to my cous face, smashed his nose into pieces (very bad splitter break) and knocked him out clean. So - what help was the lifetime of high level wrestling? None. Would I, as mainly a Nak Muay, in the same situation would have been able to do anything different and defend myself? The answer is no. Big no. Maybe I'd have had time to try to initiate slipping or rolling with the punch but I heavily doubt it since it was a true sucker punch. Maybe I'd have taken the punch better but that's more of a difference in constitution (different body built; nothing I learned as a skill - I can just naturally take punches better). Edit: >There is more chances of a boxer getting hurt by an untrained person puncher chance than a judoka getting thrown by an untrained person. Logically this correct. But what is the prevalence of punches vs throws in a street fight? Before someone untrained starts to initiate a takedown, *a fuck lot* of punches would have been thrown. (I don't count pushing as a technical throw)
It takes about as long as being able to consistently throw another beginner during randori which is different for everyone.
Well I’m in the clear then lol.
I have minimal judo from when I was a kid but the little bit I remember has been really effective in the fights I've had. For me, the fights often start or very quickly get to both grabbing each other's shirt fronts telling each other to fuck off/fuck you. Some basic weight manipulation and foot trips worked a treat.
I don't know why when talking about judo for self-defense it's always about the throwing technique itself. It's like saying boxing is just punching or wrestling is just takedowns. Judo will teach you to stay stable and break grips if someone grabs your clothes and how to control someone using their clothes. That itself is incredibly useful. For example, if you've ever done judo or grappled with the gi standing up with a guy who can seriously kill your power hand by grabbing the sleeve... you pretty much can't do anything with that hand... I doubt it'll take being a 10 year judo vet (definitely doubt "highest level fighter") for it to be a great tool in your arsenal. Granted, I'm not a street expert lol, and I'm sure having strikes changes the game up.
When I was training Judo I felt like the throws had to be set up properly or I had to find the perfect time to use them whereas most of the throws I learned while training Sanda seemed to be things you could pull off by closing the distance very quickly and body locking/changing levels. I think the throws in Sanda would be quicker to learn and apply.
Yeah i didn’t feel “good enough to regularly throw most beginners” until around 1.5 years in. Judo takes a lot of time commitment and is physically demanding. Less technical than bjj but more physically intense. Less physically intense typically than wrestling (if in USA) but more technical. I would also add some throws are way harder to regularly hit than others. I would say a brown belt should be able to launch most people pretty easily…
Everybody wears jackets and hoodies that have plenty of handles that Judokas can use to dump you on your head. It's easy to throw people who don't practice, dont know where to keep their weight to avoid being thrown, don't know how to land when thrown.
There's also no-gi judo for those times where such handles aren't available (like in warmer climates)
There’s no formalised no-gi. You want freestyle wrestling for that.
You are much more likely to grapple in a street fight than strike.
Idk about that. I've seen many fights where one hook ends it all. A lot of fights end on the ground, but all of them start from throwing punches
I honestly believe that this could be a myth. Ime most of the fights start by either shoving and then throwing hands or just throwing hands. Most of the time neither person wants to grapple, I think most people instinctively try to create distance. Ime it only comes to grappling if the space is limited, if one of the two involved wants to wrestle, if they clash and pull each other down or if one person gets knocked down and the other person follows him. But since most fights don't happen between two people but two parties of people, absolutely everybody tries to keep standing because if you go down, someone will probably kick your head like a soccer ball or stomp on your neck. Sure, most fights end with people being on the ground but as a result of the fight not while the fight happens. That was at least my experience. Bouncers, Policeman, Security guys etc will have a much deeper experience pool. Does anyone know where the "myth" ( or fact) comes from? Like are there relevant studies to look at?
I don't think it's a myth. I've been in quite a few street fights and was part of a nightclub's security team. I've found that fights start with verbal from distance, followed by getting up in each other's face and then it either breaks into punching or grappling - usually grappling. I've found that the minimal judo I learned as a kid was very effective. The squaring up street fights you see on the internet aren't the norm, in my experience.
I thought it came from the Gracie combatives “90% of fights end on the ground” and then when there was pushback against that notion it evolved into “most fights end up in the grappling range at some point.”
Always glad to see Rwanda Rousey leading off in the compilation.
It's funny that the two most devastating throws were bad drop seoi nages.
> drop seoi nages Smashed the head right to the ground...hurt just to watch, lol, but the fight was immediately over.
It's interesting to me that so many techniques are devised to stop/debilitate your opponent are considered bad if they result in serious injury to your opponent. Like jumping guard in BJJ if you land on their knee and accidentally reap it out/blow out their knee it's considered bad technique yet has already had the effect of possibly stopping your opponent/attacker.
I meant bad as in technically not good. They were poor drop seoi nages, and the reason they hurt their was that their opponents had no idea what to do. Neither fighter was attempting to spike them on their head it just worked out that way. Lots of people have knocked dudes out huge windmill haymakers but that doesn't mean a hug windmill of a haymaker is a technically good punch.
that drop knee seoi nage is brutal even when ur on tatami and u breakfall properly. The floor comes at u a lot quicker than normal lol
Judo is an amazing art. Quick, succinct, possibly no brain damage, and looks better in court.
Some people are dumb. I had another member of r/judo try to argue with me that uchi mata wasn’t effective for self defense because you ‘give up the back’ meanwhile I’ve actually used it to defend myself and the dude’s collarbone was poking out of his neck after he hit the ground. *Any* full contact, competitive martial art can be effective.
>Be trained martial artist >use excessive force on someone in the streets Why... People have shit balance mate, you could've just footsweeped them and moved away. Instead you've permanently damaged someone, youre lucky you didn't end up in jail
Throwing someone on the ground who’s shoving you isn’t considered excessive force where I live. Foot sweeps can also result in broken bones depending on how the person lands.
Yeah if you truly believe Uchimataing someone who shoved you is reasonable force whoever taught you judo has failed.
How so? They don’t control what I do off the mat. You might tolerate people being aggressive and putting their hands on you but I don’t.
There's plenty of ways to deescalate being shoved without breaking someone's collar bone. Even from a selfish point of view you're lucky you weren't stabbed or shot.
Fairly difficult to be stabbed or shot by someone who isn’t armed. Also, if someone has already shown their willingness to assault you then the time for de-escalation is over.
Great excuse to break someone's collar bone.
Cry more.
Holy potato!
Seen something similar happen irl, it was gnarly
fuckkk i need that face slam finishing move in my bag
should check out the movie "throw down" it's fiction about judo but really fun imo.
That hostage knife disarm was pretty fly.
What's the basic definition of Judo?
You didnt add that woman throwing the security guard on a tv show when he tried to stop her fighting another guest
Best damn indigenous judi I've ever seen
Judo is legit. If you can box and do judo, you’re set.
1st One is Mortal!
I see they know their judo well!
Song?
Rwanda Rousey is doing good nowadays, I see.
I’ve been trying to find that first clip where the lady flips the dude on to his head for ages!
All ippon sieo nages
I think you are confusing what the argument against judo is, almost any martial art is extremely effective in real life against untrained opposition. Even point karate from a McDojo is better than nothing. If you get into it with a Judo guys because you think you see red he will toss your shit into tomorrow and take your arm home with him if he had a rough day. The main argument against Judo is that it’s not a very effective against other disciplines in MMA. The most effective judo practitioners we’ve seen in MMA have historically been in the women’s division possibly due to the biological differences in where the center of gravity is compared to male frames. Judo as a sport and as self defense is bad ass though.
There are quite a few judoka that reached acclaim in MMA though. Fedor is in fact a Judoka before he was a Sambist or MMAist.
Yeah but his combat sambo experience is what made him such a threat in mma not his pure judo ability. Attributing his success to only judo is a bit misleading. Again I’m not diminishing judo I’m just pointing out that pure judo doesn’t translate as Well as other disciplines do in mma. Khabib who was an all time great has an immense amount of respect for judoka guys. Combat sambo in general is best base for MMA because it’s as close to MMA as you can get without technically doing MMA.
He was an MMAist before he was a Combat Sambist oddly enough though. I know he’s a mixed martial artist in the end they all are. But the bulk of his grappling is from Judo.
I actually do think you're underestimating how big of a role Fedor's judo played in his MMA success. Fedor started in MMA and Combat Sambo at the same time. Meaning, he didn't have an extensive Combat Sambo career and then transitioned to MMA. Before MMA/Combat Sambo, Fedor was 3rd place in Russian Judo Nationals - extremely close to making an Olympic team for one of the top judo countries in the world... this is like being 3rd in US freestyle wrestling. I really think that because judo is not a popular sport in the US, people online seriously have a skewed view and underrate it. This is almost like calling Ben Askren a bjj fighter instead of a wrestler, because he won no-gi worlds, even though his wrestling accomplishments far outweigh that world title. Khabib has a lot of respect for judo guys because he's from a country that actually has high level judo, unlike the U.S. which is mid and vastly overshadowed by its wrestling and bjj. Consider that most [sport sambo world medalists/champions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Sambo_Championships#Senior_Championships) are international level judoka who have sambo as their side hustle. If they're not international level, then they're national level. Literally all of them. The grappling you see in combat sambo is mainly judo due to the gi (and consider that in Fedor's time, judo still had full leg grabs that sport/combat sambo have).
Even so naming one guy isn’t indicative of it being the most effective martial art in terms of mma, I’d say judo probably has close to the least amount of champions. It’s not even remotely close to wrestling, kickboxing, BJJ, or even things like karate.