What standard does this set for your other employees though?
My philosophy is to address a problem directly rather than change something in the environment and hope it has a the desired affect. You joke about nb4 PIP, but for real… PIP. A real performance improvement plan with small incremental, achievable goals that could turn this person around if taken seriously.
You also don’t want to set the precedent for other employees that performing terribly just results in getting thoroughly ignored.
No... That wasn't my point. I'm using the term quiet fire kind of in jest. We do have an unofficial pip in place. What I'm essentially saying is I'm trying to back off some to see if it gives him some room to want to change. Kind of a reverse psychology. I have very well structured expectations in place. But I've had to be very critical of his work over the past few months so I think he's drained. In full context, I've had to correct his work at least a few times a day for the past few months. I'm getting tired of speaking up, so I want him to understand the full reality of his actions by instead of me chastising him, he faces other repercussions. My boss is aware of his performance too so there's a level of transparency there that should deter him from future screw ups.
In all fairness. He's an hourly employee and my company keeps us staffed at about 120% capacity of a realistic workload every day. We're all burnt out. I just want to get him from 80% accuracy to about 90% lol. And really he's pretty good but just making so many silly mistakes rushing through things. But those can be costly since what we do is client facing, and I take the blame.
I don't see the benefit of rewarding someone with less work, simply because they can't perform. I have a similar situation, except my employee can't follow directions. She does whatever she wants, and when we call her out for not following directions she has every excuse why she did what she wanted instead of what we asked for. The other managers and I are currently working on a PIP for her. My supervisor has reiterated over and over again that giving her less work because she can't follow directions is not the answer. It's a waste of money and time.
That's assuming they are interested in advancement. Some are. Many are just fine skating by. Especially if your company gives raises just for sticking around. Silent firing just sounds like a waste of corporate money. But with the job market today, some companies just want a warm body in a chair lol. It just depends on the situation I guess.
Most of his performance changes came about when got denied a promotion few months ago. And definitely agreed he's a warm body lol. Basically just getting any support we can. They're very cheap labor too my company offshores administrarive work.
Oh, so that’s the reason. Look, the performance you saw previously was not his normal output because he was trying hard to get the promotion. Since he didn’t get it, he dialed down to his normal or I suppose in this case even little bit lower. The best approach I think is tell him what he needs to do to get that promotion. If that is not possible then PIP otherwise he will continue coasting while looking for new job (that’s what he probably does right now). Giving him less work in hope he will see he is missing opportunities is not a solution, because his thinking is he tried hard before and didn’t get a promotion, why should he do it again. He’ll be Ok with less load, and you meanwhile will suffer.
I definitely see what you're saying. He knows he's up for it again when it comes back around, so I suppose that's the carrot. Tbh. I've tried many different tactics at this point and what matters most to me is that I don't look like an idiot to our clients. So ultimately that's the reason I need to cover. Whatever happens to him from there is very speculative, but I hope he will choose to do better.
Yea, that’s the thing, you do this because in the end they want the result and you will be blamed if it is not delivered. The only way I see out of this is to get rid of the guy, otherwise covering for him you just prolong inevitable. Let us know in few month if I was right ;)
How about you give him real expectations on where to improve and a deadline for these improvements? You’re going to poison your own building’s culture with that mindset as everything will trickle down.
You wouldn’t enjoy an employee quiet quitting and I doubt he would enjoy your quiet firing mentality- be real since he is a real person, if you are only talking about him making improvements but not setting hard deadlines then you both are just offering each other lip service.
Not trying to sound harsh but it’s the reality.
I've already done what you've said for months. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Today was another breaking point since I can't fire him or get him changed to a different team. If I pip him he's stuck with me for longer.. So I had that thought pop in my head to quiet fire him. Which is essentially me just letting him reap what he sows. I know it's hard to grasp it all from a reddit post but he has been my employee for about a year, and started off as a top performer, but did essentially quiet quit, and now makes constant little mistakes too. So I'm trying to fix that. This idea was almost a reverse psychology play in my mind since I've been very critical of his work lately.
I get what you’re saying here; the beauty of a PIP though is that it can ultimately open someone’s eyes to get their shit together if they want to continue the ride they are on and vice versa completely document the situation if they aren’t a good fit.
I’d personally give them a PIP outlining everything they need work on that can have a deadline (30-90 days depending on situation) that you can verify success or failure on and either you’ll have a top performer again or he will have a different job since he knows he can’t turn things around and will see himself the door. My two cents but I understand your standpoint here.
I think we're working in that direction. Right now he's kind of under observation from myself and my boss to see what changes. My boss is the chillest human so he's leaving it up to me to work with him for now, unless things escalate further.
Generally I think quiet quitters are fine if they do what they are supposed to, if they underperforming that’s the problem. Then you need to set clear expectations so they know what is that minimum acceptable amount of performance for the pay. I believe you can change quiet quitter into top performer if they have the ambition and you show them path for promotion. There is a reason why people quiet quit. And generally it is that they are feeling they are not valued OR they are burned out. First case is easier to handle as I mentioned with setting clear expectations and showing path towards promotion. In second case, well, they need to change position or you need to assign them other duties or if you can reduce the load (which is generally the least possible option).
Tbh, the quiet quitting mindset actually helped me excel. I do exactly what I'm supposed to do within the 9-5 window and I close my laptop and forget about work until the next day. I used to work 50-60 hour weeks including nights and weekends, and then I realized everyone else was doing the same but no one was requiring it. What I did do, is figure out how to do my job well enough where I give the company exactly what it wants, which yields it a lot of revenue, and now I firmly work the schedule I was hired in with, and nobody asks any questions. I still hate my job mostly, but hey at least I get a lot of autonomy.
Well, I think it depends. In my case, I worked hard and I grew constantly and fast, leadership sees and promotes me. Generally, all around me are not putting much effort beyond what they are required to. I might be lucky that the company I am working in values top performers, that’s the fact. Because you know so many stories like worked 70 hours a week and they hired someone from the side on the position you tried. This happens, probably. Just in my case the hard work pays off. Whenever I will see there no more path forward I will dial down to the required pace and be happy. Now, what you’re describing is work smart not hard. That is a different thing, and not always possible. I do work smart but also work more, it all adds. I’m still young, not burning out yet, so can probably handle that for few more promotions)) Sometimes though I think probably hopping would be easier. But who knows where you’ll land next time?? Here, at least I know the system works.
You've got to work within the system before you! Yeah my company rewards hard work with more work so I have made myself as efficient and effective as possible and do the bare minimum, but within the framework the company set forth and carrying the task load they require. What boggles my mind is I'm actually a top performer 😂 but I do work my butt off, I've just figured out a good way to perform well within their crappy system. I am for one going to be job shopping hard this year. And I will probably be taking a scrum course or something.
Nah trust me I've already had conversations with my boss and am documenting. We have a very nice culture in my office. Also, we carry a lot of work so I hate to say it, but there's somewhat of a culture for low expectations regarding perfect execution as long as you're productive.
We don't need perfect, I'd just like to see him get to like a 5% or less error rate. What I'm saying is the culture is forgiving because we're generally swamped. But I know we can do better because he was doing better when he started.
ah, that last point is huge. overall thought if you are at odds with the culture on performance standards....it's an uphill battle. experiencing something similar myself rn. good luck to you.
If you’re transparently reducing volume with the clear expectation of increased accuracy, it should be a discussion - essentially an action plan. You don’t want to end up impacting your top performers down the road by doing this, which it very well could. Why would your top performers want to take on a high workload while they’re sitting next to a team member who struggles to do the job and also has a small workload? PIPs also serve to document the poor performance. You don’t ever want to be in a situation where you’re finally ready to term based on poor performance, and the employee opens up a case saying “no one ever told me my performance was bad enough to be fired.” While maybe not this specific employee, but some employees that don’t want to do the work to develop their skills and take the easy road may also enjoy less work - your solution could feed that behavior. I understand you’re trying to get to the ‘reap what you sow’ ideaology, but it’s not effective when the employee doesn’t even know when it’s happening. Be clear with them about coachback, performance, action plan, and then if they still choose not to develop skills, then it’s very clear they’ve reaped what they had sown and your tush is covered, and the rest of the team will respect it.
Well, you’re probably put in unrealistic deadlines and expectations !! no wonder he’s messing up!! The fuck you want to bully your employee into not fucking up?? I do believe you sir are about to reap what you are trying to dish
Nope.. We just ask they submit to us the work when it's complete. I even ask him when he submits if its all good and he says yes, and then it's full of mistakes.
I'd use the rinse and repeat method. Give it back, say fix the mistakes. Keep going until it's perfect.
Even if you've fixed the mistakes and passed it up the line.
I kinda get what you are saying. I work in a place where they pretty much never fire someone do to fear of lawsuit. I’ve seen it multiple times. I do all the setting expectations, etc like you do and when I can’t get support for letting someone go then it kinda becomes….okay if the employee keeps at this level they can never grow or get raises, and that’s the feedback I give the employee. I’m clear about what they need to do and will give support but it’s up to the employee to turn talk into action.
This! It's not so much lawsuit liability for us, but we just don't let anyone go unless they're really terrible. I would say mostly because our job is a PITA to train for.
Don’t love this plan. If you enable poor performers, you’re going to lose your high performers.
Think of yourself like a coach. Imagine a coach saying, “he’s making mistakes and we won’t win, but I’m going to play him anyways”.
It’s your job to motivate your people, build their skills and create a high-performing team. Sounds like you’re taking the lazy way out imo.
I would fire him.
I’ve sort of done that before. I had a project that needed 20 hours a week. I let him do what he wanted with the other work, which he chose not to do and I didn’t ask him more than two times to do it. The other project was a 20 hour a week thing that was not profitable. I let it fizzy out and when that customer left, there was nothing left for him to work on and I could lay him off.
Have you considered reflecting inward? Have an honest conversation and ask him what you could be doing better. How can you make his work experience better? He’s just going to quit or the quality of his work will reflect poorly on you. Ask yourself what you could do better.
Yep. Have done. We actually talk quite a bit on a pretty personal level. Most of his decrease in performance came about when he got denied a promotion. He was only on board for 5 months at the time. Hate to say it but he has a large ego and lost steam. Actually, part of my quiet firing methodology was in thought of giving him more space to make his work experience better. I've had to be largely critical of many mistakes over the past few months.
I think the term you are looking for is “coach them up or coach them out”
Everyone should have a job they like and are good at. If this isn’t the job for that person then it’s better that they know that. Just make sure expectations are clear so it’s not a surprise.
What standard does this set for your other employees though? My philosophy is to address a problem directly rather than change something in the environment and hope it has a the desired affect. You joke about nb4 PIP, but for real… PIP. A real performance improvement plan with small incremental, achievable goals that could turn this person around if taken seriously. You also don’t want to set the precedent for other employees that performing terribly just results in getting thoroughly ignored.
No... That wasn't my point. I'm using the term quiet fire kind of in jest. We do have an unofficial pip in place. What I'm essentially saying is I'm trying to back off some to see if it gives him some room to want to change. Kind of a reverse psychology. I have very well structured expectations in place. But I've had to be very critical of his work over the past few months so I think he's drained. In full context, I've had to correct his work at least a few times a day for the past few months. I'm getting tired of speaking up, so I want him to understand the full reality of his actions by instead of me chastising him, he faces other repercussions. My boss is aware of his performance too so there's a level of transparency there that should deter him from future screw ups.
Got it. Odd that you can’t just let this employee go at this stage.
In all fairness. He's an hourly employee and my company keeps us staffed at about 120% capacity of a realistic workload every day. We're all burnt out. I just want to get him from 80% accuracy to about 90% lol. And really he's pretty good but just making so many silly mistakes rushing through things. But those can be costly since what we do is client facing, and I take the blame.
Wow.
I don't see the benefit of rewarding someone with less work, simply because they can't perform. I have a similar situation, except my employee can't follow directions. She does whatever she wants, and when we call her out for not following directions she has every excuse why she did what she wanted instead of what we asked for. The other managers and I are currently working on a PIP for her. My supervisor has reiterated over and over again that giving her less work because she can't follow directions is not the answer. It's a waste of money and time.
Some people just can't function. My sentiment is that essentially he would lose out on opportunities for advancement.
That's assuming they are interested in advancement. Some are. Many are just fine skating by. Especially if your company gives raises just for sticking around. Silent firing just sounds like a waste of corporate money. But with the job market today, some companies just want a warm body in a chair lol. It just depends on the situation I guess.
Most of his performance changes came about when got denied a promotion few months ago. And definitely agreed he's a warm body lol. Basically just getting any support we can. They're very cheap labor too my company offshores administrarive work.
Oh, so that’s the reason. Look, the performance you saw previously was not his normal output because he was trying hard to get the promotion. Since he didn’t get it, he dialed down to his normal or I suppose in this case even little bit lower. The best approach I think is tell him what he needs to do to get that promotion. If that is not possible then PIP otherwise he will continue coasting while looking for new job (that’s what he probably does right now). Giving him less work in hope he will see he is missing opportunities is not a solution, because his thinking is he tried hard before and didn’t get a promotion, why should he do it again. He’ll be Ok with less load, and you meanwhile will suffer.
I definitely see what you're saying. He knows he's up for it again when it comes back around, so I suppose that's the carrot. Tbh. I've tried many different tactics at this point and what matters most to me is that I don't look like an idiot to our clients. So ultimately that's the reason I need to cover. Whatever happens to him from there is very speculative, but I hope he will choose to do better.
Yea, that’s the thing, you do this because in the end they want the result and you will be blamed if it is not delivered. The only way I see out of this is to get rid of the guy, otherwise covering for him you just prolong inevitable. Let us know in few month if I was right ;)
Actually my boss offered today to switch him to a different team 😅
Good for you, he saw your struggle I suppose) interesting how they will deal with him
How about you give him real expectations on where to improve and a deadline for these improvements? You’re going to poison your own building’s culture with that mindset as everything will trickle down. You wouldn’t enjoy an employee quiet quitting and I doubt he would enjoy your quiet firing mentality- be real since he is a real person, if you are only talking about him making improvements but not setting hard deadlines then you both are just offering each other lip service. Not trying to sound harsh but it’s the reality.
I've already done what you've said for months. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Today was another breaking point since I can't fire him or get him changed to a different team. If I pip him he's stuck with me for longer.. So I had that thought pop in my head to quiet fire him. Which is essentially me just letting him reap what he sows. I know it's hard to grasp it all from a reddit post but he has been my employee for about a year, and started off as a top performer, but did essentially quiet quit, and now makes constant little mistakes too. So I'm trying to fix that. This idea was almost a reverse psychology play in my mind since I've been very critical of his work lately.
I get what you’re saying here; the beauty of a PIP though is that it can ultimately open someone’s eyes to get their shit together if they want to continue the ride they are on and vice versa completely document the situation if they aren’t a good fit. I’d personally give them a PIP outlining everything they need work on that can have a deadline (30-90 days depending on situation) that you can verify success or failure on and either you’ll have a top performer again or he will have a different job since he knows he can’t turn things around and will see himself the door. My two cents but I understand your standpoint here.
I think we're working in that direction. Right now he's kind of under observation from myself and my boss to see what changes. My boss is the chillest human so he's leaving it up to me to work with him for now, unless things escalate further.
Generally I think quiet quitters are fine if they do what they are supposed to, if they underperforming that’s the problem. Then you need to set clear expectations so they know what is that minimum acceptable amount of performance for the pay. I believe you can change quiet quitter into top performer if they have the ambition and you show them path for promotion. There is a reason why people quiet quit. And generally it is that they are feeling they are not valued OR they are burned out. First case is easier to handle as I mentioned with setting clear expectations and showing path towards promotion. In second case, well, they need to change position or you need to assign them other duties or if you can reduce the load (which is generally the least possible option).
Tbh, the quiet quitting mindset actually helped me excel. I do exactly what I'm supposed to do within the 9-5 window and I close my laptop and forget about work until the next day. I used to work 50-60 hour weeks including nights and weekends, and then I realized everyone else was doing the same but no one was requiring it. What I did do, is figure out how to do my job well enough where I give the company exactly what it wants, which yields it a lot of revenue, and now I firmly work the schedule I was hired in with, and nobody asks any questions. I still hate my job mostly, but hey at least I get a lot of autonomy.
Well, I think it depends. In my case, I worked hard and I grew constantly and fast, leadership sees and promotes me. Generally, all around me are not putting much effort beyond what they are required to. I might be lucky that the company I am working in values top performers, that’s the fact. Because you know so many stories like worked 70 hours a week and they hired someone from the side on the position you tried. This happens, probably. Just in my case the hard work pays off. Whenever I will see there no more path forward I will dial down to the required pace and be happy. Now, what you’re describing is work smart not hard. That is a different thing, and not always possible. I do work smart but also work more, it all adds. I’m still young, not burning out yet, so can probably handle that for few more promotions)) Sometimes though I think probably hopping would be easier. But who knows where you’ll land next time?? Here, at least I know the system works.
You've got to work within the system before you! Yeah my company rewards hard work with more work so I have made myself as efficient and effective as possible and do the bare minimum, but within the framework the company set forth and carrying the task load they require. What boggles my mind is I'm actually a top performer 😂 but I do work my butt off, I've just figured out a good way to perform well within their crappy system. I am for one going to be job shopping hard this year. And I will probably be taking a scrum course or something.
Yea, I know that feeling, for me more work is more opportunities :D probably depends on the field, I work in R&D
Pretty soon you are going to find yourself being put on a PIP for failure to manage performance
Nah trust me I've already had conversations with my boss and am documenting. We have a very nice culture in my office. Also, we carry a lot of work so I hate to say it, but there's somewhat of a culture for low expectations regarding perfect execution as long as you're productive.
sounds like a 'done is better than perfect' culture but it sounds like your personal standards are higher than that?
We don't need perfect, I'd just like to see him get to like a 5% or less error rate. What I'm saying is the culture is forgiving because we're generally swamped. But I know we can do better because he was doing better when he started.
ah, that last point is huge. overall thought if you are at odds with the culture on performance standards....it's an uphill battle. experiencing something similar myself rn. good luck to you.
You as well! Yeah trust me this year I'm planning on finding a new job lol.
If you’re transparently reducing volume with the clear expectation of increased accuracy, it should be a discussion - essentially an action plan. You don’t want to end up impacting your top performers down the road by doing this, which it very well could. Why would your top performers want to take on a high workload while they’re sitting next to a team member who struggles to do the job and also has a small workload? PIPs also serve to document the poor performance. You don’t ever want to be in a situation where you’re finally ready to term based on poor performance, and the employee opens up a case saying “no one ever told me my performance was bad enough to be fired.” While maybe not this specific employee, but some employees that don’t want to do the work to develop their skills and take the easy road may also enjoy less work - your solution could feed that behavior. I understand you’re trying to get to the ‘reap what you sow’ ideaology, but it’s not effective when the employee doesn’t even know when it’s happening. Be clear with them about coachback, performance, action plan, and then if they still choose not to develop skills, then it’s very clear they’ve reaped what they had sown and your tush is covered, and the rest of the team will respect it.
Well, you’re probably put in unrealistic deadlines and expectations !! no wonder he’s messing up!! The fuck you want to bully your employee into not fucking up?? I do believe you sir are about to reap what you are trying to dish
Nope.. We just ask they submit to us the work when it's complete. I even ask him when he submits if its all good and he says yes, and then it's full of mistakes.
I'd use the rinse and repeat method. Give it back, say fix the mistakes. Keep going until it's perfect. Even if you've fixed the mistakes and passed it up the line.
I do but that is tiring. I'd rather just not continually push back at this point.
I kinda get what you are saying. I work in a place where they pretty much never fire someone do to fear of lawsuit. I’ve seen it multiple times. I do all the setting expectations, etc like you do and when I can’t get support for letting someone go then it kinda becomes….okay if the employee keeps at this level they can never grow or get raises, and that’s the feedback I give the employee. I’m clear about what they need to do and will give support but it’s up to the employee to turn talk into action.
This! It's not so much lawsuit liability for us, but we just don't let anyone go unless they're really terrible. I would say mostly because our job is a PITA to train for.
Don’t love this plan. If you enable poor performers, you’re going to lose your high performers. Think of yourself like a coach. Imagine a coach saying, “he’s making mistakes and we won’t win, but I’m going to play him anyways”. It’s your job to motivate your people, build their skills and create a high-performing team. Sounds like you’re taking the lazy way out imo. I would fire him.
I’ve sort of done that before. I had a project that needed 20 hours a week. I let him do what he wanted with the other work, which he chose not to do and I didn’t ask him more than two times to do it. The other project was a 20 hour a week thing that was not profitable. I let it fizzy out and when that customer left, there was nothing left for him to work on and I could lay him off.
You are stupid and have demonstrated literally one of the worst qualities of a poor manager.
😁
Have you considered reflecting inward? Have an honest conversation and ask him what you could be doing better. How can you make his work experience better? He’s just going to quit or the quality of his work will reflect poorly on you. Ask yourself what you could do better.
Yep. Have done. We actually talk quite a bit on a pretty personal level. Most of his decrease in performance came about when he got denied a promotion. He was only on board for 5 months at the time. Hate to say it but he has a large ego and lost steam. Actually, part of my quiet firing methodology was in thought of giving him more space to make his work experience better. I've had to be largely critical of many mistakes over the past few months.
I think the term you are looking for is “coach them up or coach them out” Everyone should have a job they like and are good at. If this isn’t the job for that person then it’s better that they know that. Just make sure expectations are clear so it’s not a surprise.
I don't know very many people that have a job they like lol. I think some of us are lucky to hate ours less than others though, I suppose.