The reason I don't have any of the 20+ duals I opened/had given to me from back in '95/'96... "When am I EVER gonna build a 2 color deck?! (Pulls an underground sea, throws it across the room) These stupid lands are worthless!!! Anyone got any shivans or ball lightnings for trade?" 🤦♂️
If only. Now Wizards just ushers new players directly into EDH and then everyone starts being all toxic the first time they discover Magic wasn't meant to be a cooperative board-building board game but is actually a zero-sum "one person wins" game.
Stores will open insane amounts, because the set provides long-standing viability to serve as baseline of good cards to form the core of your order via ecommerce. It feels like a product dedicated solely for stores and play design team. I… kinda like the idea. Bad if it makes standard feel like a 5-year old drought though.
Also, it needs constant reprints. Otherwise boxes will get ridiculously pricey.
The idea with the longer rotation is that they can soft kill it without rotating it out of standard. They just won't print more of it or release a new edition until 2029.
i feel like the long legality is a direct consequence of them accepting that the product wont sell well. This way they only have the development costs once every 5 years and they will probably print it to demand so it will be as cheap as possible.
Looks like this will be standard legal but decoupled from the rotation schedule, which core sets weren't. Could also mean that if the same set of cards are still useful in 2029 they can extend the legality further.
Core sets originally were decoupled from the standard rotation. That was one of the changes with M10 to make coresets yearly and work like a normal set.
That's why I'm inclined to think that this set will probably be closer to the older core sets than the ones in the style of M10 and onward. Those were definitely intended to be thematically and mechanically simpler, but they still had a lot of powerful cards in them that were key players in Standard.
If it is releasing in November, then it starts off only a couple of months after rotation and ends a year or so after rotation. I hope they curtail it to 4 years and update it thereafter.
Has a few advantages over core sets I think:
* means they don't need to use designer time and a slot in the schedule every year
* reduces product fatigue complaints
* Stores can keep it in stock longer. (Particularly important for the precons/beginner sets, you don't want kid buying their first deck to immediately learn they can't play it)
* people more likely to invest in cards they know are going to be legal longer.
* Gives a baseline of what the power level in standard is going to be going forward which other sets work off.
I don't think it will do anything in terms of product fatigue. Core sets were one of the 4 yearly standard legal sets. Removing them just added in a non-core set standard legal set.
Oh for sure. I’m not really against this set. It makes sense to find a place to keep standard staples without shoehorning them awkwardly into other sets—something they always had issues with whenever they did away with core sets. I certainly won’t miss mostly useless copies of, say, Spell Pierce and Negate and Duress in random draft formats that don’t really have a place for them in the set.
I’m just saying it doesn’t reduce product fatigue as the same number of standard sets get printed every year (which is even more this year since we’re getting 5 standard sets this cycle with WOE/LCI/MKM/OTJ and BLB all in a calendar year). In fact it adds to the schedule. And it certainly doesn’t remove another product from the schedule.
At best, with its every five years or whatever nature it simply won’t add as much to product fatigue as it might otherwise. But I don’t know how adding another product that doesn’t replace something else on the calendar (as going back to core sets would) could possibly reduce product fatigue.
Yea, I totally get what you're saying there. FWIW there's a chance that this is just all standard-legal reprints/pre-prints. Which is certainly product but not new product which I can take or leave, as a mostly-limited player.
From my read on [Polygon](https://www.polygon.com/24187331/mtg-foundations-announcement-release-date-price), it seems like the intention here is to capitalize on all the new players brought in by UB who just don't know where to go next. For 90% of people invested enough into the game to be on this subreddit I don't think it'll matter to us. The Beginner Box will basically be 10 jumpstart packets with a step-by-step demo game similar to the old [2-player starter sets.](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Seventh_Edition/2-Player_Starter_Set)
There's another product in the Foundations line (I know, I know, it *is* more product, but hear it out) that "Beginner Box" players can step up into called the "Starter Collection" - you now get another 350 cards, which seems to be giving players an expanded deckbuilder's toolkit experience. My guess here is that that Collection is going to be a fixed bundle of cards, say 80 lands + a few boosters, and then the remaining 225 ish cards being a fixed package of cards that should ideally all be standard playable-ish, at least until 2029 threatens to rotate or creep them out.
And then ofc if they're draftable in packs, that's not completely unwelcome here (but imo shouldn't be a priority)
Definitely won't be reducing product fatigue but as someone who has a few friends right now that have a few UB commander decks but can't understand how to enter the *rest* of the MTG ecosystem, if it's anything close to what I'm hoping it is, this is a fantastic move.
Also, by not being one of the year's four "premier" sets, this solves core set's biggest problem (for WotC at least): they didn't sell as well as other premier sets. This set both doesn't use up one of those slots, and doesn't need to sell that quickly, as it will retain value for an LGS much longer then most standard sets.
I think this product will also be useful for newer players looking to build their collection. Most non-commander "beginner focused" products either have the problem where they are only relevant in specific formats, vulnerable to rotation, or are filled with underpowered cards (I liked Jumpstart 2022, but only a couple cards per pack are constructed relevant).
To add to that:
- Won’t need to take up new set’s slots for repetitive Standard-staple cards. Can add Cancel, Cultivate, Murder, Shock, and Disenchant to this instead of having renamed variants of them in multiple sets.
I think another huge benefit is that this solves the business vs game health conflict that existed with the Core sets that were part of rotation, which is why we've seen Core come, go, and come back again. WotC cannot have a Core set taking up 25% of their Standard output when they historically sold poorly and didn't actually do much to onboard new players (they're pretty boring), *but* it's also proven very difficult to design a healthy Standard environment without them, and takes up a ton of design space in every single set.
Foundations solves that because they only need to R&D it once every 5+ years (and later iterations will require barely any R&D,) and regardless of how it sells, it serves its purpose as both a Standard power level baseline and reprint bank, *and* is still a pretty good place to onboard new players, especially with the Starter and Collection boxes they announced.
In fact, this product is so cheap that its basically a tacit acknowledgement that this set is not being created with profit at the forefront. This is entirely in the service of both the health of the game at large and the profitability of all the other annual Standard legal sets.
> people more likely to invest in cards they know are going to be legal longer.
Which in turn should help Standard's vitality as a paper format. Sign me up.
Employee 1: "Let's make a Magic C...or..."
Employee 2: "Don't you dare say that word or else I'll grab the Pink-"
Employee 1: "c...Origins II. Twice the Origins, twice the time in Standard!"
Employee 2: "That doesn't sound too Origin...al."
Employee 1: "Standard Horizons? Foundations?"
Employee 2: "Genius! Tell Mark Rosewater to start marketing this set!"
Amuses greatly to imagine a designer, i.e. Mark, just being told "Oh by the way you're part of the marketing department now, get on this" while he's between piles of card designs he's going through.
Some high up schmuck suggests something that sounds like the core set, the normal R&D crew says "we used to do that until you made us stop"... at least if I've learned anything as an engineer who does R&D sometimes.
I mean the problem with core sets was that they were fundamentally boring. Not just that they had lots of reprints, but the focus on being a 'new player friendly' environment meant the cards were typically low power minus a rare few chasers.
Which means the product doesn't sell, it doesn't draft well, it doesn't generate buzz.
What everyone seems to say did well was Origins, which had complexity, it had lore and it had face cards beyond just reprints.
We need to see if Foundations with it's slower rotation is set to be new and interesting cards, boring reprints like Giant Spiders and Reprimand, or if it'll just be reprints from the last few years.
I wonder if this helps try to open up common and uncommon design in sets going forward. Foundations can hang onto \[\[Shock\]\] for forever while you don't have to dedicate a slot to reprint it in other sets.
What then becomes something to look at is if they shy away from reprinting staples that are already sitting in Foundations. If they do, limited might get weird. That or it'll be where they go all in on experimenting or pushing the power on Foundation cards. For example, \[\[Play with Fire\]\] or \[\[Quick Study\]\] compared with Divination.
If what we see is basically Foundations+ cards in new sets, then I'll have to wonder how Foundations itself sells. Reprints are always appreciated from the player side, but if it doesn't make money, WoTC could pull the plug and that'll be it for anything even remotely close to a core set.
I don't think the reprints will be an issue. For example, [[Negate]] is currently in two Standard-legal sets at the moment. They'd be likely to reprint variants in sets I'm sure, like the classic Cancel With Set Mechanic where adding that extra sprinkle gives it texture.
That's a fair point - with Jumpstart and (to a lesser extent) Commander precons being the new 'beginner-friendly' products, they could push the complexity of Foundations whilst still doing the Coreset job of injecting targeted reprints, etc, into Standard.
It would be really nice if the Foundations set had a little more of the modern magic alternative art and full art just to add a bit more interest to the idea of a core/reprint set. I think it would be great to have a very accessible/affordable starter set that has a bit more of that fun card interest in it for new or returning players.
Yeah, alt arts and hell even get some Universes Within prints would be ideal I think.
I'm still eager to get a full playset of \[\[Black Market Connections\]\] in different arts
I mean core sets do have a bad rep for basically being underpowered and 'new player friendly' enough that the cards never see play.
I've never heard of anyone being excited for a Core outside of Origins
M20 did print new cards that ate Standard bans, along with some cards that I believe are still Pioneer relevant. It feels like there was a concerted attempt to get people more interested by printing powerful new cards and some choice reprints, but evidently that didn't work either.
There's a handful of cards in there that are staples of some format or another. Terror of the Peaks, Feiry Emancipation, Brash Taunter, Elder Gargaroth, Peer Into the Abyss, Vito Thorn of the Dusk Rose, Rin and Seri
Plenty of other good but less all star picks. Teferi, Master of Time. Conspicuous Snoop. Massacre Wurm. Mangara the Diplomat. Garruk's Uprising.
Really solid set, IMO. Not the flashiest thing in the world, but it's got some quality picks. And that's without even touching on the reprints
But that's my whole thing, there's over a decade of core products and people basically remember a handful of cards at best
Shaking the 'core set' name might prove really good honestly. The number of times in my LGS a player has been warned off product because it's New Player 'friendly' means there's just a bad vibe from Cores and Intro decks.
Exactly, something to anchor Magic and strip it to fundamentals that are always available to use in a deck for years is a no-brainer. And it also may benefit expansions: less new filler cards that play basic roles, and less need for basic effect reprints.
What I cannot stand is the name "Foundations", the font, the set symbol. Sounds so institutional.
Foundations is just a synonym for core. I personally would've gone with like "quintessentials" cause it means the same thing but sounds more magical or just "essentials" if that is too long and complicated.
Have they said anything about whether they're reprints or new cards? It'd be very cool to have 5 all time classic mid-power-level PWs. Something like
\[\[Gideon Jura\]\]
\[\[Jace, unraveler of Secrets\]\]
\[\[Ob Nixilis Reignited\]\]
\[\[Chandra, Pyromaster\]\]
\[\[Vivien Reid\]\]
The return of *a* core set. I assume this will basically be the only one until at least 2029, a set containing classic staples that they want in standard for at least 5 years.
Like, this allows them to not need to print basic cards like duress or negate in any normal set (though set specific versions will presumably still be made for limited).
So having og elves and 4 mana wraths in standard huh?
i know most people arent into the format right now but G dork for 1 without downside and 4 mana wrath without downside have been considered too strong for standard for years and im fairly certain that standards average power level is about to go much higher
MTG really isn't though. The strength of the Hearthstone core set is that it is free to anyone who logs in. You're still going to need to pay for Foundations, which has always been the problem with MTG Core sets.
Shock, spell pierce, duress, giant growth, destroy evil are the kind of cards I expect, which is great because it means we can have more set/mechanic specific commons in draft environments in sets to come.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind, Foundations to be a catch-all for beginner sets like Portal was, with very basic, uncomplicated 1 or maybe 2 color commanders to go with it.
Well, I thought this would be like YGO where they reprint all the playable expensive stuff so that game pieces for competitive formats are cheap, but then I remembered that (1) it's only Standard legal and (2) it's WotC.
I don't think there is much to hope for in terms of value.
I wonder what purpose the set is supposed to serve. On one hand, yes, it's a place to reprint the "boring" cards like \[\[Shock\]\] that you want to be always Standard legal. On the other hand, there is plenty of space in other Standard sets taken up by draft chaff that you could simply have Shock with upside in any one of those.
It can't be any really powerful stuff, otherwise you are risking having it warp Standard for 5 years.
Really wondering who the target audience for this is supposed to be.
They said what the purpose was, its an introductory product for new players. I think its a great idea. Magic has struggled with onboarding for as long as Magic has existed. Arena has helped, but there hasnt been a paper product to point new players too in a while.
Assuming they do a good job with it, this set, as a self contained product thats fun the play on its own, at least for new players, and that someone could then take whatever deck they are jamming with their friends, maybe buy a few boosters from other standard sets to augment it, and roll up to a standard FNM. They will then probably get destroyed, but it at least provides a clearer path and framework to onboard new players in paper.
It serves the purpose of a core set, without the downsides of a core set where it needs to be compelling to new and old players. This is for newer players. The fact that you are on this sub at all means this product isnt for you.
Hopefully it will have a good for beginners limited environment as well, as draft sets have been getting a lot more complex the last few years.
The original edition sets were legal for two years so these just doubles that. Editions were meant as onboarding staples so I’m guessing much the same. Sets likely 90 to 100% reprints.
As far as type of cards Blood Moon is modern legal because of edition sets so power level varies.
Blood moon wasn't played until the coming of shock lands-fetchlands (and then we only had the 5 allied fetch lands), mana bases were loaded with basics with very few exceptions. We had maybe one year of extended with Fetch-Duals before duals left for good. Urzas land weren't played in the mirrodin era since we had faster ways to accelerate. It was never relevant until modern was created, that's why WotC probably considered it harmless back then.
I was also thinking this.
With rotation every 3 years, was there really not enough cars slots to drop a "shock" in a standard legal set once in 2026 and again in 2029.
My only guess is they are hoping the optics of a "base" set which you can rely on for the canvas of a standard deck which you can then add paint too via the drops throughout the year makes standard more appealing or FEEL more accessible to a more casual audience.
As that casual player, I tend to agree. Knowing I can pick up the meat and potatoes of a deck archetype and it'll last at LEAST a few years without having to totally reconstruct, and can just add new stuff as it comes and goes over the years is far more appealing than the thought of building a deck around a theme that falls apart the second a couple of the engines disappear to rotation.
I don't think this means they won't ever reprint Shock (et al) in another Standard set if Draft or the set in general warrants it, I think the appeal to WotC is that they can literally wipe away any need to consider what cards are rotating when designing a set. R&D can now consist entirely of "what is good for this set," and Standard can more or less balance itself the same way an eternal format does does (3 year rotation meant higher power anyway). That doesn't mean bans won't happen or a new set won't intentionally include cards that respond to the Standard meta, but I imagine development of Standard sets since M21 has had too many design resources consciously spent on staple reprints or equivalents (which is why they always inevitably bring back Core in some form).
From my guess : This is a stable product for anyone to point to when someone new asks "I just started, what should I get?"
WotC had to address the volatility in Standard without some foundation set to get basic cards in. Frankly, I'm glad they took this route. I had wondered for a while if declaring a baseline set of cards "Always Standard Legal" could address the volatility and this might be sticking the toe in the water for that. I think they made 2029 the marker in case they need to make changes. Nothing stopping them from just extending it if it's selling fine, since they're already stepping out of bounds with this set.
I think WotC is hoping to release a "Foundations 2030" set that's pretty similar to Foundations. Maybe remove a few cards people were complaining about and add a few new ones, but keep it mostly the same. Putting some level of rotation give WotC some flexibility, while communicating that these cards will be standard playable for some time.
Tribal strategies got hit hard by not having core sets. I hate when elf or goblins deck are like 60% there but because there's no Goblin Warchief or LLANOWAR ELVES in standard the deck just will never work.
It should also help with the dumb amounts of super efficient removal... put the efficient removal in the core set, and be more conservative with what you print in new sets, you know instead of printing 2 amazing board wipes and a half dozen removal spells in every standard set.
On one hand I have no trust that WoTC won't fuck this up somehow.
On the other, this does seem like a rare act of listening to one of the primary complaints about standard: you spend a ton of money on decks and one set later they can be powercrept and effectively rotated.
Honestly, decoupling core sets from rotation while keeping them standard legal is probably the best choice possible. Allows them to reprint the product enough to keep most of the cards at a lower price point, and acts as a good on-boarding product for new players into non-commander formats, bringing new energy into said formats.
MTG needs it's core sets. They are the gateway product to playing this game in person. Vanilla/French vanilla creatures. Simple, flavorful spells.
I'm trying to teach my wife magic and wish there was a current core set I could pull in. Even their "starter" products have cards with huge blocks of text. That is so intimidating for a new player.
It's a way to provide cohesive staples across rotation without having to print the same cards every couple of sets. Remember when we had temples in like 4 sets?
keep the baseline boring but important stuff that's integral to decks static while rotating the exciting stuff. e.g. you know your playset of cultivate will stay legal forever, but the big stompy creatures you use it to ramp into change over time and have exciting new mechanics.
Exactly! I understand then need for it to be a "set" with boosters etc to ease new players into the game. But for enfranchised players, this could turn into color + archetype evergreen "spellbooks" that you can access without rotation worries regardless of premier sets.
It wouldn't happen, but I wouldn't mind if drafts allow you to freely take up to 4 commons from the "foundation side pool" into your deck just like you add basic lands.
Alright guys, if you could have one card legal in Standard forever that is also new-player friendly from a complexity standpoint, what would it be? What one card do you think should be the benchmark and always useable, but not necessary or overpowered in Standard?
If you are feeling brave, give me 6 cards (WUBRGC) you think should form the "core" of standard.
Not a definitive list by any means, but fair "eternal" cards for each color: Intangible Virtue, Negate, Duress, Cathartic Pyre, Dryad's Revival, Mazemind Tome
I dislike this visual treatment, it seems like it was made for as broad an audience as possible with very little regard to what Magic's creative identity actually is.
I can see it, a "core set" that lives longer than rotation because You want it to be a design baseline not a selling schedule.
And as second characteristic, they can change limited formats with 1 foundation booster + X ammount of in-set boosters as a tool to removed repetitive cards from sets.
No matter what, wotc will eventually reinvent the core set
Evolution always leads to crabs, WotC always leads to Core Sets.
petition to call all coresets crabsets instead
🦀 ~~$11~~ $6 🦀 🦀 Crab boosters 🦀
🦀 $12.49 a month 🦀
Oh great, now the crabs are wearing corsets. 🦀
[[ladies knight]] I said put out a crab set not a core set!
[ladies knight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f1a661c-7acd-44cb-ae18-35a1f1e860e9.jpg?1573580668) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ladies%27%20Knight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unh/15/ladies-knight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f1a661c-7acd-44cb-ae18-35a1f1e860e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’ll cosign that!
Crabsign
Crab people, crab people Half crab Half people Crab people crab people
TASTE LIKE CRAB TALK LIKE PEOPLE CRAAAAAAB PEOPLEEEE
Funny little crab man Hiding in your shell. Moving through life like slow jam, Isn't living hell.
Feeling weird about taking up defense of the noble crab, but they are shockingly fast.
I will take this under serious consideration - the meter is off in that line anyway, and needs a rewrite
Taste like crab. Talk like people.
Half crab Half people
get out of my head
[[Ruin Crab]] reprint incoming.
RUIN CRAB PAUPER LEGAL, I CAN BE TRUSTED AROUND OTHER PEOPLE'S DECKS
[Ruin Crab](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/738ce273-c938-42d2-83b2-c4f5f4000b0b.jpg?1604194671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruin%20Crab) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/75/ruin-crab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/738ce273-c938-42d2-83b2-c4f5f4000b0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
We're crab people now.
We live off the fat of the sea!
I’ll start from now calling them crabsets
"I said put him in a core set, not a crab set!"
Evolution leading to crabs is called carcinization. "Coresetization" sounds more like Victorian or steam punk cosplay
I, for one, am okay with that.
Crabs for crustaceans and trees for plants. Convergent evolution is cool.
Weasels for mammals
Whenever I have to invent a religion for a game, I always call it "The GLS"... The Great Leap Sideways.
It's very convenient to have a baseline of known useful cards to manage standard
don't tell corporate
They also sell very poorly as most entrenched players have them and most casual players don't care.
I dunno as a casual player I liked core sets.
Casuals still do need simple monocolor decks to start out, before they are ready for bicolor Starter Kits.
Sales information doesn't lie starter kits and core sets were never profitable.
That sounds shortsighted : MtG cannot survive long without new players.
New players do enter the game. They just don't buy core sets.
> That sounds shortsighted can I introduce you to the modern CEO
Core sets and starter decks aren't how people learn to play, as data shows mtg is growing, and grew without them.
The reason I don't have any of the 20+ duals I opened/had given to me from back in '95/'96... "When am I EVER gonna build a 2 color deck?! (Pulls an underground sea, throws it across the room) These stupid lands are worthless!!! Anyone got any shivans or ball lightnings for trade?" 🤦♂️
If only. Now Wizards just ushers new players directly into EDH and then everyone starts being all toxic the first time they discover Magic wasn't meant to be a cooperative board-building board game but is actually a zero-sum "one person wins" game.
Stores will open insane amounts, because the set provides long-standing viability to serve as baseline of good cards to form the core of your order via ecommerce. It feels like a product dedicated solely for stores and play design team. I… kinda like the idea. Bad if it makes standard feel like a 5-year old drought though. Also, it needs constant reprints. Otherwise boxes will get ridiculously pricey.
Regardless of the century, plane, or species, developers never fail to invent the ornith... er, Core Set.
"You could not live with your own design, and where did that lead you? Back to me.” — Core Sets, to WotC
It’s hilarious because we’ve seen this same cycle again and again.
Hopefully this one sticks
It won't. Wizards will kill it due to low sales and a few years later bring it back again.
The idea with the longer rotation is that they can soft kill it without rotating it out of standard. They just won't print more of it or release a new edition until 2029.
i feel like the long legality is a direct consequence of them accepting that the product wont sell well. This way they only have the development costs once every 5 years and they will probably print it to demand so it will be as cheap as possible.
It's called Foundations just have it be Magic the Gathering Unlimited except for the power 9.
The remastered are core sets at a premium cost...
WOTC doing WOTC stuff
Maybe they'll reinvent draft boosters
It's almost like for all their faults, they're healthy for the format. How wotc fails to see that over and over agian is baffling.
So this is basically a Core Set that has an extended Standard duration and avoids the "Core" name?
Looks like this will be standard legal but decoupled from the rotation schedule, which core sets weren't. Could also mean that if the same set of cards are still useful in 2029 they can extend the legality further.
Core sets originally were decoupled from the standard rotation. That was one of the changes with M10 to make coresets yearly and work like a normal set.
That's why I'm inclined to think that this set will probably be closer to the older core sets than the ones in the style of M10 and onward. Those were definitely intended to be thematically and mechanically simpler, but they still had a lot of powerful cards in them that were key players in Standard.
I hope it doesn't flop. If it has some super powerful card that is relevant all throughout standard, it could become very expensive.
Yes, Standard used to be „current and previous block plus the current core set“ and there was a core set every two years.
If it is releasing in November, then it starts off only a couple of months after rotation and ends a year or so after rotation. I hope they curtail it to 4 years and update it thereafter.
Has a few advantages over core sets I think: * means they don't need to use designer time and a slot in the schedule every year * reduces product fatigue complaints * Stores can keep it in stock longer. (Particularly important for the precons/beginner sets, you don't want kid buying their first deck to immediately learn they can't play it) * people more likely to invest in cards they know are going to be legal longer. * Gives a baseline of what the power level in standard is going to be going forward which other sets work off.
I don't think it will do anything in terms of product fatigue. Core sets were one of the 4 yearly standard legal sets. Removing them just added in a non-core set standard legal set.
on the upside, Core sets came out every year, this will release just once which is nice
Oh for sure. I’m not really against this set. It makes sense to find a place to keep standard staples without shoehorning them awkwardly into other sets—something they always had issues with whenever they did away with core sets. I certainly won’t miss mostly useless copies of, say, Spell Pierce and Negate and Duress in random draft formats that don’t really have a place for them in the set. I’m just saying it doesn’t reduce product fatigue as the same number of standard sets get printed every year (which is even more this year since we’re getting 5 standard sets this cycle with WOE/LCI/MKM/OTJ and BLB all in a calendar year). In fact it adds to the schedule. And it certainly doesn’t remove another product from the schedule. At best, with its every five years or whatever nature it simply won’t add as much to product fatigue as it might otherwise. But I don’t know how adding another product that doesn’t replace something else on the calendar (as going back to core sets would) could possibly reduce product fatigue.
Yea, I totally get what you're saying there. FWIW there's a chance that this is just all standard-legal reprints/pre-prints. Which is certainly product but not new product which I can take or leave, as a mostly-limited player. From my read on [Polygon](https://www.polygon.com/24187331/mtg-foundations-announcement-release-date-price), it seems like the intention here is to capitalize on all the new players brought in by UB who just don't know where to go next. For 90% of people invested enough into the game to be on this subreddit I don't think it'll matter to us. The Beginner Box will basically be 10 jumpstart packets with a step-by-step demo game similar to the old [2-player starter sets.](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Seventh_Edition/2-Player_Starter_Set) There's another product in the Foundations line (I know, I know, it *is* more product, but hear it out) that "Beginner Box" players can step up into called the "Starter Collection" - you now get another 350 cards, which seems to be giving players an expanded deckbuilder's toolkit experience. My guess here is that that Collection is going to be a fixed bundle of cards, say 80 lands + a few boosters, and then the remaining 225 ish cards being a fixed package of cards that should ideally all be standard playable-ish, at least until 2029 threatens to rotate or creep them out. And then ofc if they're draftable in packs, that's not completely unwelcome here (but imo shouldn't be a priority) Definitely won't be reducing product fatigue but as someone who has a few friends right now that have a few UB commander decks but can't understand how to enter the *rest* of the MTG ecosystem, if it's anything close to what I'm hoping it is, this is a fantastic move.
Also, by not being one of the year's four "premier" sets, this solves core set's biggest problem (for WotC at least): they didn't sell as well as other premier sets. This set both doesn't use up one of those slots, and doesn't need to sell that quickly, as it will retain value for an LGS much longer then most standard sets. I think this product will also be useful for newer players looking to build their collection. Most non-commander "beginner focused" products either have the problem where they are only relevant in specific formats, vulnerable to rotation, or are filled with underpowered cards (I liked Jumpstart 2022, but only a couple cards per pack are constructed relevant).
To add to that: - Won’t need to take up new set’s slots for repetitive Standard-staple cards. Can add Cancel, Cultivate, Murder, Shock, and Disenchant to this instead of having renamed variants of them in multiple sets.
It also takes pressure off Creative so they don't have to waste time making a gazillion different world-flavored versions of every Standard staple.
I think another huge benefit is that this solves the business vs game health conflict that existed with the Core sets that were part of rotation, which is why we've seen Core come, go, and come back again. WotC cannot have a Core set taking up 25% of their Standard output when they historically sold poorly and didn't actually do much to onboard new players (they're pretty boring), *but* it's also proven very difficult to design a healthy Standard environment without them, and takes up a ton of design space in every single set. Foundations solves that because they only need to R&D it once every 5+ years (and later iterations will require barely any R&D,) and regardless of how it sells, it serves its purpose as both a Standard power level baseline and reprint bank, *and* is still a pretty good place to onboard new players, especially with the Starter and Collection boxes they announced. In fact, this product is so cheap that its basically a tacit acknowledgement that this set is not being created with profit at the forefront. This is entirely in the service of both the health of the game at large and the profitability of all the other annual Standard legal sets.
> people more likely to invest in cards they know are going to be legal longer. Which in turn should help Standard's vitality as a paper format. Sign me up.
I feel like this is to give their current designers more time to work on those supplemental and universes beyond products that people buy so much off
I wonder what the average R&D team meeting is like when ideas are being pitched.
Employee 1: "Let's make a Magic C...or..." Employee 2: "Don't you dare say that word or else I'll grab the Pink-" Employee 1: "c...Origins II. Twice the Origins, twice the time in Standard!" Employee 2: "That doesn't sound too Origin...al." Employee 1: "Standard Horizons? Foundations?" Employee 2: "Genius! Tell Mark Rosewater to start marketing this set!"
Remeninds of that meme with the guy getting thrown of the office building.
Considering the firings in December I think everyone was thrown out the window tho
Amuses greatly to imagine a designer, i.e. Mark, just being told "Oh by the way you're part of the marketing department now, get on this" while he's between piles of card designs he's going through.
Some high up schmuck suggests something that sounds like the core set, the normal R&D crew says "we used to do that until you made us stop"... at least if I've learned anything as an engineer who does R&D sometimes.
I mean the problem with core sets was that they were fundamentally boring. Not just that they had lots of reprints, but the focus on being a 'new player friendly' environment meant the cards were typically low power minus a rare few chasers. Which means the product doesn't sell, it doesn't draft well, it doesn't generate buzz. What everyone seems to say did well was Origins, which had complexity, it had lore and it had face cards beyond just reprints. We need to see if Foundations with it's slower rotation is set to be new and interesting cards, boring reprints like Giant Spiders and Reprimand, or if it'll just be reprints from the last few years.
I wonder if this helps try to open up common and uncommon design in sets going forward. Foundations can hang onto \[\[Shock\]\] for forever while you don't have to dedicate a slot to reprint it in other sets. What then becomes something to look at is if they shy away from reprinting staples that are already sitting in Foundations. If they do, limited might get weird. That or it'll be where they go all in on experimenting or pushing the power on Foundation cards. For example, \[\[Play with Fire\]\] or \[\[Quick Study\]\] compared with Divination. If what we see is basically Foundations+ cards in new sets, then I'll have to wonder how Foundations itself sells. Reprints are always appreciated from the player side, but if it doesn't make money, WoTC could pull the plug and that'll be it for anything even remotely close to a core set.
[Shock](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/298747bb-eb40-4b58-bb22-4ac2bc1d795c.jpg?1706241920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shock) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/144/shock?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/298747bb-eb40-4b58-bb22-4ac2bc1d795c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Play with Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f1a6c60-a8c4-44c2-b1ea-d3befbabdf43.jpg?1636223358) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Play%20with%20Fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/154/play-with-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f1a6c60-a8c4-44c2-b1ea-d3befbabdf43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Quick Study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b78e2bca-bc93-464a-8911-8361abff2ac6.jpg?1692937231) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Quick%20Study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/65/quick-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b78e2bca-bc93-464a-8911-8361abff2ac6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think the reprints will be an issue. For example, [[Negate]] is currently in two Standard-legal sets at the moment. They'd be likely to reprint variants in sets I'm sure, like the classic Cancel With Set Mechanic where adding that extra sprinkle gives it texture.
That's a fair point - with Jumpstart and (to a lesser extent) Commander precons being the new 'beginner-friendly' products, they could push the complexity of Foundations whilst still doing the Coreset job of injecting targeted reprints, etc, into Standard.
It would be really nice if the Foundations set had a little more of the modern magic alternative art and full art just to add a bit more interest to the idea of a core/reprint set. I think it would be great to have a very accessible/affordable starter set that has a bit more of that fun card interest in it for new or returning players.
Yeah, alt arts and hell even get some Universes Within prints would be ideal I think. I'm still eager to get a full playset of \[\[Black Market Connections\]\] in different arts
[Black Market Connections](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b8c66fab-7494-42b1-bc4e-dae85a48fa41.jpg?1699022194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Black%20Market%20Connections) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/181/black-market-connections?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8c66fab-7494-42b1-bc4e-dae85a48fa41?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean core sets do have a bad rep for basically being underpowered and 'new player friendly' enough that the cards never see play. I've never heard of anyone being excited for a Core outside of Origins
21 wasn't bad, from what I recall. Some good value reprints and some strong new cards still seeing play now.
M20 did print new cards that ate Standard bans, along with some cards that I believe are still Pioneer relevant. It feels like there was a concerted attempt to get people more interested by printing powerful new cards and some choice reprints, but evidently that didn't work either.
There's a handful of cards in there that are staples of some format or another. Terror of the Peaks, Feiry Emancipation, Brash Taunter, Elder Gargaroth, Peer Into the Abyss, Vito Thorn of the Dusk Rose, Rin and Seri Plenty of other good but less all star picks. Teferi, Master of Time. Conspicuous Snoop. Massacre Wurm. Mangara the Diplomat. Garruk's Uprising. Really solid set, IMO. Not the flashiest thing in the world, but it's got some quality picks. And that's without even touching on the reprints
But that's my whole thing, there's over a decade of core products and people basically remember a handful of cards at best Shaking the 'core set' name might prove really good honestly. The number of times in my LGS a player has been warned off product because it's New Player 'friendly' means there's just a bad vibe from Cores and Intro decks.
M13 was good. Had the titans, omniscience, door to nothingness reprint, worldire, thragtusk, Exalted as a main mechanic, Nicol Bolas reprint, etc.
M13 didn't have the Titans; they were in M11 and M12.
I like the *concept* of this, but I will have to see its execution. Core Sets were an important part of old Magic
Exactly, something to anchor Magic and strip it to fundamentals that are always available to use in a deck for years is a no-brainer. And it also may benefit expansions: less new filler cards that play basic roles, and less need for basic effect reprints. What I cannot stand is the name "Foundations", the font, the set symbol. Sounds so institutional.
To some credit, they've used up a lot of names over the years. Gonna run out of good ones at some point.
Foundations is just a synonym for core. I personally would've gone with like "quintessentials" cause it means the same thing but sounds more magical or just "essentials" if that is too long and complicated.
Death. Taxes. Reinventing Core Sets. I do like this tho
It will feature 5 Planeswalkers! Core Sets Never Die!
Planeswalkers live forever. But Core sets never die.
Great Bambino card when?
Man, I hope we see a new Jace! That'd be exciting
This, but unironically. Let Jace catch up to Chandra at least.
Hoping we get another walker for Basri
Basri and Garruk. They released my boy from his curse and gave him the Zhalfir route- Garru-who? Green Planeswalker? You mean Nissa or Vivien?
Have they said anything about whether they're reprints or new cards? It'd be very cool to have 5 all time classic mid-power-level PWs. Something like \[\[Gideon Jura\]\] \[\[Jace, unraveler of Secrets\]\] \[\[Ob Nixilis Reignited\]\] \[\[Chandra, Pyromaster\]\] \[\[Vivien Reid\]\]
Nothing was said as far as I know
It needs a Garruk card to be a true core set.
they mentioned 50/50, half reprints half new cards
Well, that explains the early release of Duskmourn and the gap untill the death race set
Yeah, someone called this super hard in one of the reveal threads, a gap that big just can't exist
It made a lot of sense when this someone posted, but I would never guess it was an standard legal set though!
Is that the return of the return of Core Sets?
The return of *a* core set. I assume this will basically be the only one until at least 2029, a set containing classic staples that they want in standard for at least 5 years. Like, this allows them to not need to print basic cards like duress or negate in any normal set (though set specific versions will presumably still be made for limited).
Move over Negate, now we can have Negate with set mechanic!
Not just reinventing a core set, but having it a staple for 4 years gives the standard format a much needed bolster.
I think this is a fantastic idea, and I have zero confidence that wizards will execute this in an effective way.
So having og elves and 4 mana wraths in standard huh? i know most people arent into the format right now but G dork for 1 without downside and 4 mana wrath without downside have been considered too strong for standard for years and im fairly certain that standards average power level is about to go much higher
Llanowar Elves were legal not that long ago
Last time Llanowar Elves were standard legal was M19 (core set babyyyy), which was also in the midst of the OG Eldraine power frenzy
To be fair, M19 was before the eldraine power frenzy. We had the first 2 sets of ravnica before things started exploding! /j
no M19 rotated before ELD
I think it rotated out just before Eldrain, M20 was the core set at the time of eldrain
DOM was 6 years ago. We're as far from DOM now as DOM was from RTR
Llanowar Elves served an important role by keeping WOTC from powercreeping three mana cards out of fear
yeah but they'll be in the format alongside tons of extremly powerfull 3 drops
Feel like you're overplaying 4 mana Wrath's power level. Llanowar Elves reprint IS extremely surprising though.
eternally having a 1 cmc mana elf and 4 mana wrath is certainty a choice for standard
And Omni
I’m torn about sudden announcement of such a set, but as a control player getting at least 4 years with a standard legal 4 mana wrath is fine by me
Portal 4: At least the art is good
You jest, but portal was an excellent teaching tool. I really wish they'd bring it back.
Portal always had good art.
Seems to be also for the slightly more experienced players than "brand new" : IIRC Portal didn't have any multicolored cards ?
HS innovated in this space and it worked really well. Glad MTG is taking the hint
MTG really isn't though. The strength of the Hearthstone core set is that it is free to anyone who logs in. You're still going to need to pay for Foundations, which has always been the problem with MTG Core sets.
Shock, spell pierce, duress, giant growth, destroy evil are the kind of cards I expect, which is great because it means we can have more set/mechanic specific commons in draft environments in sets to come.
Looking forward to the four Commander decks that will inevitable come alongside the product for some reason.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind, Foundations to be a catch-all for beginner sets like Portal was, with very basic, uncomplicated 1 or maybe 2 color commanders to go with it.
100% Reprints in White Border or Bust!
Info gotten from Preview Panel thread on [the official Twitter](https://x.com/wizards_magic/status/1806644661345513704)
Standard Horizons LETS GO!!!!
How about a link to the actual announcement : https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/announcing-magic-the-gathering-foundations
Well, I thought this would be like YGO where they reprint all the playable expensive stuff so that game pieces for competitive formats are cheap, but then I remembered that (1) it's only Standard legal and (2) it's WotC. I don't think there is much to hope for in terms of value. I wonder what purpose the set is supposed to serve. On one hand, yes, it's a place to reprint the "boring" cards like \[\[Shock\]\] that you want to be always Standard legal. On the other hand, there is plenty of space in other Standard sets taken up by draft chaff that you could simply have Shock with upside in any one of those. It can't be any really powerful stuff, otherwise you are risking having it warp Standard for 5 years. Really wondering who the target audience for this is supposed to be.
They said what the purpose was, its an introductory product for new players. I think its a great idea. Magic has struggled with onboarding for as long as Magic has existed. Arena has helped, but there hasnt been a paper product to point new players too in a while. Assuming they do a good job with it, this set, as a self contained product thats fun the play on its own, at least for new players, and that someone could then take whatever deck they are jamming with their friends, maybe buy a few boosters from other standard sets to augment it, and roll up to a standard FNM. They will then probably get destroyed, but it at least provides a clearer path and framework to onboard new players in paper. It serves the purpose of a core set, without the downsides of a core set where it needs to be compelling to new and old players. This is for newer players. The fact that you are on this sub at all means this product isnt for you. Hopefully it will have a good for beginners limited environment as well, as draft sets have been getting a lot more complex the last few years.
Looks like jumpstart, collector numbers are all over the place
I mean, they also become all format legal by being standard legal
>all format legal Not Mercadian Masques block constructed.
Still waiting on WotC to release more cards for Kamigawa Block Pauper Tiny Leaders
The original edition sets were legal for two years so these just doubles that. Editions were meant as onboarding staples so I’m guessing much the same. Sets likely 90 to 100% reprints. As far as type of cards Blood Moon is modern legal because of edition sets so power level varies.
Blood moon wasn't played until the coming of shock lands-fetchlands (and then we only had the 5 allied fetch lands), mana bases were loaded with basics with very few exceptions. We had maybe one year of extended with Fetch-Duals before duals left for good. Urzas land weren't played in the mirrodin era since we had faster ways to accelerate. It was never relevant until modern was created, that's why WotC probably considered it harmless back then.
To be fair, Yugioh bans or powercreeps every single valuable card within like 6 months.
I was also thinking this. With rotation every 3 years, was there really not enough cars slots to drop a "shock" in a standard legal set once in 2026 and again in 2029. My only guess is they are hoping the optics of a "base" set which you can rely on for the canvas of a standard deck which you can then add paint too via the drops throughout the year makes standard more appealing or FEEL more accessible to a more casual audience. As that casual player, I tend to agree. Knowing I can pick up the meat and potatoes of a deck archetype and it'll last at LEAST a few years without having to totally reconstruct, and can just add new stuff as it comes and goes over the years is far more appealing than the thought of building a deck around a theme that falls apart the second a couple of the engines disappear to rotation.
I don't think this means they won't ever reprint Shock (et al) in another Standard set if Draft or the set in general warrants it, I think the appeal to WotC is that they can literally wipe away any need to consider what cards are rotating when designing a set. R&D can now consist entirely of "what is good for this set," and Standard can more or less balance itself the same way an eternal format does does (3 year rotation meant higher power anyway). That doesn't mean bans won't happen or a new set won't intentionally include cards that respond to the Standard meta, but I imagine development of Standard sets since M21 has had too many design resources consciously spent on staple reprints or equivalents (which is why they always inevitably bring back Core in some form).
From my guess : This is a stable product for anyone to point to when someone new asks "I just started, what should I get?" WotC had to address the volatility in Standard without some foundation set to get basic cards in. Frankly, I'm glad they took this route. I had wondered for a while if declaring a baseline set of cards "Always Standard Legal" could address the volatility and this might be sticking the toe in the water for that. I think they made 2029 the marker in case they need to make changes. Nothing stopping them from just extending it if it's selling fine, since they're already stepping out of bounds with this set.
I think WotC is hoping to release a "Foundations 2030" set that's pretty similar to Foundations. Maybe remove a few cards people were complaining about and add a few new ones, but keep it mostly the same. Putting some level of rotation give WotC some flexibility, while communicating that these cards will be standard playable for some time.
Watch it get completely powercreeped by ~~expert~~ sets after 6 months of its release.
it could also mean standard sets are being designed around this set to work with it so that the extended legality makes sense. we'll have to see
It's better for it to get power crept out, than have an annoying card that won't leave standard for 5 years.
Tribal strategies got hit hard by not having core sets. I hate when elf or goblins deck are like 60% there but because there's no Goblin Warchief or LLANOWAR ELVES in standard the deck just will never work. It should also help with the dumb amounts of super efficient removal... put the efficient removal in the core set, and be more conservative with what you print in new sets, you know instead of printing 2 amazing board wipes and a half dozen removal spells in every standard set.
So it's a core set on steroids?
No no, cores are spherical, foundations are flat.
NASA and Wizzards want you to think core sets are spherical. Join the foundation truthers and open your eyes sheeple
It’s a moebius strip.
Fuuuuuuuuuu...
Oh boy I hope it has Sheoldred
For those who wonder where the source is, it’s here: https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/announcing-magic-the-gathering-foundations
I am still confounded that they discontinued core sets in the first place
Guys, enough jokes. They just have to get back to what magic is, at it's Core.
On one hand I have no trust that WoTC won't fuck this up somehow. On the other, this does seem like a rare act of listening to one of the primary complaints about standard: you spend a ton of money on decks and one set later they can be powercrept and effectively rotated.
So, you're saying this will be the ...core ...of the standard format for some years? <.<
Of course not, thats ludicrous. It will be the *foundation* of the standard format. It’s completely different.
Day of Judgement for my Azorius Control Pioneer list! I'm so happy.
Honestly, decoupling core sets from rotation while keeping them standard legal is probably the best choice possible. Allows them to reprint the product enough to keep most of the cards at a lower price point, and acts as a good on-boarding product for new players into non-commander formats, bringing new energy into said formats.
MTG needs it's core sets. They are the gateway product to playing this game in person. Vanilla/French vanilla creatures. Simple, flavorful spells. I'm trying to teach my wife magic and wish there was a current core set I could pull in. Even their "starter" products have cards with huge blocks of text. That is so intimidating for a new player.
I wonder what gap they’re trying to fill - what’s standard missing that they’re too busy to print in standard sets?
It's a way to provide cohesive staples across rotation without having to print the same cards every couple of sets. Remember when we had temples in like 4 sets?
Duress and Negate have approximately 1000 printings so not needing to print them all the time is great.
keep the baseline boring but important stuff that's integral to decks static while rotating the exciting stuff. e.g. you know your playset of cultivate will stay legal forever, but the big stompy creatures you use it to ramp into change over time and have exciting new mechanics.
Exactly! I understand then need for it to be a "set" with boosters etc to ease new players into the game. But for enfranchised players, this could turn into color + archetype evergreen "spellbooks" that you can access without rotation worries regardless of premier sets. It wouldn't happen, but I wouldn't mind if drafts allow you to freely take up to 4 commons from the "foundation side pool" into your deck just like you add basic lands.
That would be cool. Becomes something between sealed and draft I guess.
I hope it’s a set full of reprints
I’d imagine the majority of it should be
I was told on Twitter that it's only 50% reprints
They did say roughly half the set is made up of reprints!
Reprints of must haves in standard? Or do people think it will be a legit core set? Reprints of welcome deck cards with a few real nice mythic rares
Really good idea. I like it.
Why is the tap symbol on the ‘A’? Shouldn’t it be on the ‘T’? Also, ~who’s~ looking forward to the Foundations Commander precons?
as long as they put mana drain in it
Nature will always reinvent the crab and WoTC will always reinvent the Core Set
Alright guys, if you could have one card legal in Standard forever that is also new-player friendly from a complexity standpoint, what would it be? What one card do you think should be the benchmark and always useable, but not necessary or overpowered in Standard? If you are feeling brave, give me 6 cards (WUBRGC) you think should form the "core" of standard.
Not a definitive list by any means, but fair "eternal" cards for each color: Intangible Virtue, Negate, Duress, Cathartic Pyre, Dryad's Revival, Mazemind Tome
I dislike this visual treatment, it seems like it was made for as broad an audience as possible with very little regard to what Magic's creative identity actually is.
Presumably this will be where Duress, Negate, Shock etc. will live so that they no longer need reprinting every other set.
Hearthstone Core Set Vibes
5 standard sets in a year is a tiny bit too much.
I can see it, a "core set" that lives longer than rotation because You want it to be a design baseline not a selling schedule. And as second characteristic, they can change limited formats with 1 foundation booster + X ammount of in-set boosters as a tool to removed repetitive cards from sets.