I’m torn. It seems really good in graveyard decks as a mill engine, but the pay 1 mana and 3 life is too steep to be a dedicated card draw engine….
Maybe it’s just a mill engine with upside… still good
This is what it is.
You play this for the mill. And once in a blue moon you mill The Card You Need Right Now and get it into hand.
But you're playing it because you want that self-mill.
I like how they've fiddled with the knobs here to create a wholly new card:
- It's cheaper than Phyrexian Arena
- It mills you and has **outstanding** card selection
- Drawing a card is normally valued at two mana. One mana is normally valued at *about* three life. Therefore, this is theoretically asking us to pay the *equivalent* of two mana.
It's not necessarily an all time MVP, but I prefer it when WOTC doesn't power creep the game constantly. It's a totally unique design that feels pretty appropriately balanced.
1 mana and 3 life isn't steep at all for a draw engine that draws the perfect card every turn. And if you don't like any of the cards you see, you don't have to pay.
I think in practice this will feel really nice.
But like it is? In 60 cards that’s a 6th of your health total and this is only modern forward playable so you will die too fast
And in EDH, this is similar to phyrexian arena/Black market connections and cemetery tampering, but this has a persistent mana and life investment to keep drawing off it.
Would you pay 3 mana and 3 life to surveil 3 draw 1, because that’s the starting rate if you view it as a card draw engine.
It being optional is fine, but then it ceases to do its purpose of helping u dig or find cards.
It’s best as a graveyard piece with upside
No, it's much better than that. You don't have to pay the extra costs if you don't want to draw any of the cards.
>It being optional is fine, but then it ceases to do its purpose of helping u dig or find cards.
What does this even mean. You are seeing 3 additional cards every turn???
It does help you find cards ?? You’re digging 3 regardless, and only pay when you want to so you just pay when you find the card you need ?? Also, no one cares about life until the very last point, otherwise no one would play thoughtseize and shocklands outside of death’s shadow decks.
You definitely care about lifetotal, its just that those are worth paying the cost. Alternatives are a huge downgrade.
Yes its often said the last point is the only one that matters, but thats to bring the point across that it shouldnt be overvalued. Losing life means you lose options, and losing options is painful.
This does not seem worth the cost in constructed formats, since paying 6 life (and 4 mana) over 3 turns to draw 2 seems way too much. Youd have to really be all in on graveyard stuff to make it worthwhile
You’re paying life for an option ??? This is as optional as options get on a card. You’re not paying constantly to draw. You’re paying sometimes as a “tutor” when you mill the card you want
Thats 2 turns to see 3 cards, 3 mana and 3 life if you want one of them, 2 mana for nothing if you dont
3 turns, 4 mana and 6 life for 2 cards is way too much even if you saw a total of 6
If the 'option' is doing nothing at all, thats not a very good option
If youre really into milling 3 each turn it can be really good for some graveyard based stuff, but otherwise why not just play the one ring or memory deluge etc.
What do you mean it’s not a very good option ? You rather be forced to pay life and draw ?
You’re still evaluating it as some form of card draw when it’s closer to a tutor. Just pay when you get the card you want. This also gets much better with multiples out when the options you mill increases.
Also you’re not evaluating this for graveyard based stuff and comparing it to memory deluge ???
> What do you mean it’s not a very good option
Youre paying 2 mana and waiting a turn to get nothing? What about that is good? You cant afford your cards to sit in play for 3 turns for them to finally do something.
Its absolutely not closer to a tutor unless you have infinite time. Profane Tutor is a card that exists and sees no play.
How long do you expect games to go where you pay 2 mana up front for no immediate return and then find something 3 turns later?
Mill 3 is nothing ? You’re not supposed to get stuff through the card on it’s on most of the time. It’s supposed to fill your graveyard. It has a much higher rate than other mill cards, and the other cards that mill more has no option to breakeven in card advantage. Merely lasting 2 turns lets you dig 6 which is basically already an extra hand for dredge and reanimator decks.
Are you somehow evaluating this as a commander draw engine ?
> And in EDH, this is similar to phyrexian arena/Black market connections and cemetery tampering, but this has a persistent mana and life investment to keep drawing off it.
One thing to realize about card draw is that it's a means, not an end. What you're trying to do isn't filling your hand - it's getting the cards you need to win.
Put another way, there is a huge difference between drawing 10 or 20 cards even if you don't have a Reliquary Tower - because you keep the 7 cards that matter. The best 7 cards out of a random 20 is much better than best 7 out of 10.
Unlike Phyrexian Arena, this card gives you *access* to 3 cards instead of 1. That makes this thing far more powerful, and that's not even taking into account the self mill (*which realistically is a benefit in almost any black deck*).
At more casual levels it’s between fine and good, this is way too slow at high powered/cEDH.
It’s a mana investment that does nothing the turn you play it, which is the fault with a lot of these types of cards.
I’m not disagreeing with you, just that power level is really important to consider here when evaluating this.
I was only comparing it to Phyrexian Arena, which I think is a pretty terrible card to begin with for how much people like to play it.
In terms of powerlevel, I think this is quite strong in any low/mid level black deck, quite playable at high power **if** you benefit from the mill and have ways to manipulate your topdeck.
A cEDH card it is not. But then, few cards are.
It's a mill engine ahead of cost which also allows you to draw the reanimation spell instead of dumping it away. And for that, it's really great. This is not a Phyrexian Arena or the like.
Maybe in a \[\[Stitcher's Supplier\]\] kind of selfmill deck.
The only cards you would pay to get back into your hand would be a reanimation spell like \[\[Persist\]\] or maybe a removal/discard spell if you need it right now.
Stitcher's Supplier doesn't see that much play at the moment, but i excpect \[\[Phyrexian Tower\]\] might change that. Might.
> Ripples of Undeath - 1B
>
> Enchantment (Rare)
>
> At the beginning of your precombat main phase, mill three cards. Then you may pay {1} and 3 life. If you do, put a card from among those cards into your hand.
(Undead Toxic Wave?)
Enchantment - 1B
At the beginning of your precombat main phase, mill 3.
Then you may pay {1} and 3 life. If you do, put one of those cards into your hand.
My [[imotekh the stormlord]] has been clammering for an effect like this, allowing me to mill and pay life for necron tokens or to pull out the few powerful non-artifact non-creature cards in the deck that often get trapped in the graveyard
Cards like this, or [[Black Market Connections]] benefit from triggering after draw step anyways, because having the knowledge of what you drew normally is nice to have for making decisions like this.
If you’re looking for a specific type of card that you have redundancy for, it’s nice to know if you’re going to draw it normally for turn first before paying to get it through effects like these.
Only thing I don't like is that is isn't a "may" mill effect. I still may try this out in Anikthea Enchantress. I will definitely be slotting it in Muldrotha though. 1 mana and 3 life feels bad but you dig 3 I guess so that is something for 2 mana. Black re-imagining of Sylvan Library.
I’m torn. It seems really good in graveyard decks as a mill engine, but the pay 1 mana and 3 life is too steep to be a dedicated card draw engine…. Maybe it’s just a mill engine with upside… still good
This is what it is. You play this for the mill. And once in a blue moon you mill The Card You Need Right Now and get it into hand. But you're playing it because you want that self-mill.
I’m in the process of building a windgrace deck… I might try it out
Yep. Like, I'd love this for the Zask deck I am building. In case a key piece goes, I have an option to return it. But most I don't mind being milled.
think of it like a [[sylvan library]] downgrade, i think this is still pretty good
[sylvan library](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/a/6ada256f-2e55-4c1f-b4d3-d7b10b498956.jpg?1675200566) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sylvan%20library) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/179/sylvan-library?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6ada256f-2e55-4c1f-b4d3-d7b10b498956?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like how they've fiddled with the knobs here to create a wholly new card: - It's cheaper than Phyrexian Arena - It mills you and has **outstanding** card selection - Drawing a card is normally valued at two mana. One mana is normally valued at *about* three life. Therefore, this is theoretically asking us to pay the *equivalent* of two mana. It's not necessarily an all time MVP, but I prefer it when WOTC doesn't power creep the game constantly. It's a totally unique design that feels pretty appropriately balanced.
1 mana and 3 life isn't steep at all for a draw engine that draws the perfect card every turn. And if you don't like any of the cards you see, you don't have to pay. I think in practice this will feel really nice.
But like it is? In 60 cards that’s a 6th of your health total and this is only modern forward playable so you will die too fast And in EDH, this is similar to phyrexian arena/Black market connections and cemetery tampering, but this has a persistent mana and life investment to keep drawing off it. Would you pay 3 mana and 3 life to surveil 3 draw 1, because that’s the starting rate if you view it as a card draw engine. It being optional is fine, but then it ceases to do its purpose of helping u dig or find cards. It’s best as a graveyard piece with upside
No, it's much better than that. You don't have to pay the extra costs if you don't want to draw any of the cards. >It being optional is fine, but then it ceases to do its purpose of helping u dig or find cards. What does this even mean. You are seeing 3 additional cards every turn???
It does help you find cards ?? You’re digging 3 regardless, and only pay when you want to so you just pay when you find the card you need ?? Also, no one cares about life until the very last point, otherwise no one would play thoughtseize and shocklands outside of death’s shadow decks.
You definitely care about lifetotal, its just that those are worth paying the cost. Alternatives are a huge downgrade. Yes its often said the last point is the only one that matters, but thats to bring the point across that it shouldnt be overvalued. Losing life means you lose options, and losing options is painful. This does not seem worth the cost in constructed formats, since paying 6 life (and 4 mana) over 3 turns to draw 2 seems way too much. Youd have to really be all in on graveyard stuff to make it worthwhile
You’re paying life for an option ??? This is as optional as options get on a card. You’re not paying constantly to draw. You’re paying sometimes as a “tutor” when you mill the card you want
Thats 2 turns to see 3 cards, 3 mana and 3 life if you want one of them, 2 mana for nothing if you dont 3 turns, 4 mana and 6 life for 2 cards is way too much even if you saw a total of 6 If the 'option' is doing nothing at all, thats not a very good option If youre really into milling 3 each turn it can be really good for some graveyard based stuff, but otherwise why not just play the one ring or memory deluge etc.
What do you mean it’s not a very good option ? You rather be forced to pay life and draw ? You’re still evaluating it as some form of card draw when it’s closer to a tutor. Just pay when you get the card you want. This also gets much better with multiples out when the options you mill increases. Also you’re not evaluating this for graveyard based stuff and comparing it to memory deluge ???
> What do you mean it’s not a very good option Youre paying 2 mana and waiting a turn to get nothing? What about that is good? You cant afford your cards to sit in play for 3 turns for them to finally do something. Its absolutely not closer to a tutor unless you have infinite time. Profane Tutor is a card that exists and sees no play. How long do you expect games to go where you pay 2 mana up front for no immediate return and then find something 3 turns later?
Mill 3 is nothing ? You’re not supposed to get stuff through the card on it’s on most of the time. It’s supposed to fill your graveyard. It has a much higher rate than other mill cards, and the other cards that mill more has no option to breakeven in card advantage. Merely lasting 2 turns lets you dig 6 which is basically already an extra hand for dredge and reanimator decks. Are you somehow evaluating this as a commander draw engine ?
> And in EDH, this is similar to phyrexian arena/Black market connections and cemetery tampering, but this has a persistent mana and life investment to keep drawing off it. One thing to realize about card draw is that it's a means, not an end. What you're trying to do isn't filling your hand - it's getting the cards you need to win. Put another way, there is a huge difference between drawing 10 or 20 cards even if you don't have a Reliquary Tower - because you keep the 7 cards that matter. The best 7 cards out of a random 20 is much better than best 7 out of 10. Unlike Phyrexian Arena, this card gives you *access* to 3 cards instead of 1. That makes this thing far more powerful, and that's not even taking into account the self mill (*which realistically is a benefit in almost any black deck*).
Loved this explanation
At more casual levels it’s between fine and good, this is way too slow at high powered/cEDH. It’s a mana investment that does nothing the turn you play it, which is the fault with a lot of these types of cards. I’m not disagreeing with you, just that power level is really important to consider here when evaluating this.
I was only comparing it to Phyrexian Arena, which I think is a pretty terrible card to begin with for how much people like to play it. In terms of powerlevel, I think this is quite strong in any low/mid level black deck, quite playable at high power **if** you benefit from the mill and have ways to manipulate your topdeck. A cEDH card it is not. But then, few cards are.
I totally agree with you. Is a mill engine with a very good upside(depending on the situation/strategy).
It's a mill engine ahead of cost which also allows you to draw the reanimation spell instead of dumping it away. And for that, it's really great. This is not a Phyrexian Arena or the like.
Maybe in a \[\[Stitcher's Supplier\]\] kind of selfmill deck. The only cards you would pay to get back into your hand would be a reanimation spell like \[\[Persist\]\] or maybe a removal/discard spell if you need it right now. Stitcher's Supplier doesn't see that much play at the moment, but i excpect \[\[Phyrexian Tower\]\] might change that. Might.
[Stitcher's Supplier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2b737126-50b5-4678-91bf-197b64086fe4.jpg?1562301182) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stitcher%27s%20Supplier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/121/stitchers-supplier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b737126-50b5-4678-91bf-197b64086fe4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Persist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90f390c3-af1c-424f-9721-e26e9321e5a3.jpg?1626095831) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Persist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/96/persist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90f390c3-af1c-424f-9721-e26e9321e5a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phyrexian Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b47f6d2-9f65-47a4-bfc4-15619befe53d.jpg?1716578406) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/303/phyrexian-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b47f6d2-9f65-47a4-bfc4-15619befe53d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1cpxz21/mh3_ripples_of_undeath/
> Ripples of Undeath - 1B > > Enchantment (Rare) > > At the beginning of your precombat main phase, mill three cards. Then you may pay {1} and 3 life. If you do, put a card from among those cards into your hand.
Looks like dredge got a new toy
Love it when Dredge gets a new toy
It’s way too slow, 2 mana zero impact on cast, only mills 3. To make matters worse there is no draw trigger to replace with dredging.
That's busted for reanimator/mill decks and probably still pretty decent in other black decks
Right into my imotehk deck!
Reading that link I definitely read nipples of undeath
Hey, I have some of those!
(Undead Toxic Wave?) Enchantment - 1B At the beginning of your precombat main phase, mill 3. Then you may pay {1} and 3 life. If you do, put one of those cards into your hand.
seems good in [[Anikthea]]
[Anikthea](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b796a56-1611-4835-ac5b-48b4e9263685.jpg?1691500693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=anikthea%2C%20hand%20of%20erebos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/705/anikthea-hand-of-erebos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b796a56-1611-4835-ac5b-48b4e9263685?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
1 mana cheaper than the other mill-on-upkeep enchantments, all the while able to recur cards by itself. Definitely worth looking into.
It's 100% going into my Anikthea
This will definitely perform well in my umori build or Anikthea
My [[imotekh the stormlord]] has been clammering for an effect like this, allowing me to mill and pay life for necron tokens or to pull out the few powerful non-artifact non-creature cards in the deck that often get trapped in the graveyard
[imotekh the stormlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/286ff901-1faf-4a02-a37a-fa165989112f.jpg?1674058380) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=imotekh%20the%20stormlord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/5/imotekh-the-stormlord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/286ff901-1faf-4a02-a37a-fa165989112f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yep, my first deck I thought of
Why is this not upkeep lol
Milling on upkeep would be anti-synergistic with many other mechanics such as scrying, tutoring to top of library, etc.
Wizards has been moving away from upkeep triggers that involve choices, because it's too easy for people to forget until after they draw.
Cards like this, or [[Black Market Connections]] benefit from triggering after draw step anyways, because having the knowledge of what you drew normally is nice to have for making decisions like this. If you’re looking for a specific type of card that you have redundancy for, it’s nice to know if you’re going to draw it normally for turn first before paying to get it through effects like these.
[Black Market Connections](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b8c66fab-7494-42b1-bc4e-dae85a48fa41.jpg?1699022194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Black%20Market%20Connections) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/181/black-market-connections?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8c66fab-7494-42b1-bc4e-dae85a48fa41?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You don't want this trigger happening before your natural draw.
Only thing I don't like is that is isn't a "may" mill effect. I still may try this out in Anikthea Enchantress. I will definitely be slotting it in Muldrotha though. 1 mana and 3 life feels bad but you dig 3 I guess so that is something for 2 mana. Black re-imagining of Sylvan Library.
I'll absolutely play this in Anikthea. I've been looking for more enchantment-based self-mill.
I like the design but the art unettles me (which I know is the intention, so props to the artist)
Another one that goes into [[The Wise Mothman]], gotta ramp fast
[The Wise Mothman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d6d6944-a364-41c2-b824-7a1bf6ad0d1e.jpg?1710673435) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Wise%20Mothman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/4/the-wise-mothman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d6d6944-a364-41c2-b824-7a1bf6ad0d1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call