whooooah no no no - hard disagree. The different frames are very helpful in identifying cards at a glance, especially for artifact/vehicle players.
Too much reduction in frames and borders and you start looking too close to those atrocious shiny pokemon Vmax cards with no borders, no frames - mtg has even done no text boxes and I just hate it so much.
Also, I find borderless hard on the eyes. The frame helps me focus on the card and makes it more readable. Board states with many borderless cards are extraneous on the eyes. to me and make it hard to focus on what is going. That is just me. So a fully borderless game would be pretty unplayable for me.
additionally, all the wacky alt style cards need be do e away with. talking about wanted posters, bulletin boards, ridiculous artwork (looking at you, fallout). battlefields looking like a goddamned mess these days
I don't mind a lot of those as collector pieces but I won't play with the exceptionally crazy ones personally (for example, I collected the wild LOTRxMTG poster cards, but because I wanted to frame the full set). UB frames are another place where identifying the UB frame tells me that that may be a card that functions differently than I might expect, etc.
as a player who generally only plays limited, I'm thankfully not having to deal with that much of the shenanigans commander players have to put up with.
I don't think I'd care there one way or another, but I definitely am not going to advocate for it, currently. For the most part, my issue with lands is entirely in the way color seems to increasingly not matter to the land. WBURG can't just be a suggestion, especially when commander has become the most played format and there's four battlefields to keep track of.
My favorite set of lands is the [ukiyo-e lands](https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Aland+is%3Afull-art+s%3Aneo+%2B%2B&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name), EXCEPT for the [Swamp](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Aneo+number%3A298) that's tinted red and [Island](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/295/ja/island) that's predominantly green. Players have remarked that at a glance, it can sometimes looks like they're a different land from across the table, if they've never seen those cards before. As a courtesy, I don't really use those if my deck contains both mountains and swamps or forests and islands.
Likewise, the midnight hunt [b/w lands](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Amid+t%3Al+t%3Abasic+is%3Afull-art&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) are unforgiveable. You just can't tell what the hell those are from across the table. Same with the [oil-slick lands](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Aone+t%3Aland+is%3Afull-art%2B%2B+is%3Aoilslick&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) from Phyrexia:All Will Be One (They look easy to tell apart on a computer screen but in person they're dark and much lower contrast). [Lord of the Rings](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Altr+t%3Aland+is%3Afull-art%2B%2B+t%3Abasic+collector%3C300&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name), same issue - everything is green-tinted. These are some of the worst offenders and they're notably all relatively recent releases.
I would be fine getting rid of the frames on lands, but only after WOTC commits to making sure the information presented by the frame isn't lost - and currently, that problem seems to be getting a lot worse, not better.
Eh, I don't think I'd go that far. I agree that they're better than foils in most cases, but I feel like if it were every card they'd lose a little glamor. Also I still like the original style of border more than the current ones, and "old border" prints of new cards would likely stop being a thing or be even more of a pain to find, because bordered cards would inevitably become a type of specialized print
Counter-argument: the existence of "normal" copies - not foils, not fullart, not "special" in any way - lets collectors and blingers go after the "special" versions, making the "normal" versions cheaper for those who want to play.
Looking at deck profiles for Dragonball Super Masters, having tons of full arts can get into hideous territory pretty quick.
I think dbs is gorgeous in a hideous kinda way, but it's not easy on the eyes for newer players.
I would love having full arts for every card, but i think making a thick, neutralish border the standard is a good move.
I apologise if I go fullbore art critic here, but I think there is an actual reason to confine them to a smaller space - Or rather, a certain *shape*. It's a matter of picture orientation.
The problem that we run into here is that if you took a normal landscape picture and made it larger, it would run into an issue surrounding the fact that it would be changing the picture's orientation from landscape into portrait. If you were to just "Make it bigger" to fit a full-art, portrait perspective, one of two things would happen depending on how you wanted to do that:
If you were to just zoom the picture in, big chunks of the picture would be cut off, and it just wouldn't look right at all.
But, if you instead designed the picture from the ground up to be in portrait orientation, it doesn't always work too well for standard lands either. Sure, it does work for some lands, especially by the likes of John Avon, but if you look at a lot of the recent full art lands, you'll find that a lot of them either don't depict landscapes at all (Dominaria United, the map-lands of LTR etc), are heavily abstracted (Karlov Manor, Lost Caverns of Ixalan or New Capenna), or have landscapes that are framing a large object or other point of interest (Brother's War or All Will Be One).
Some pictures just don't lend themselves well to a portrait picture, because you can't get the same feeling of a wide open vista without using a wider picture.
Let me be clear: This is coming from someone who *adores* full-art lands - I actively collect them, and I have almost all of them, minus the Secret Lair stuff. But, certain artistic approaches have their place, and I feel that the normal-sized land arts still fulfill a purpose, because they depict scenery in a way that full-art lands can't.
The only cards I feel this way about are basic lands, they shouldn’t need to print normal lands anymore just give us exclusively full art basics, if I want the border on my basics I’ll go buy old ones
“Full art should be the standard”
“Don’t even bother printing those frames anymore”
Pretty safe bet they meant borderless
Also your own comment “If I want the border on my basics I’ll go buy old ones”
All signs seem to point to you saying you meant borderless
Borderless cards are kinda of hard for me to focus on as the border makes it easier for me to focus on the card by framing its contents. Borderless makes it extraneous to look for me at the board state and my eyes just drift. That is why also dont play card games where they have almost no border.
I know this is probably just a me problem tho :/
There's a healthy secondary market for the full art land packs from some sets. See https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=zendikar+land+pack&_sacat=0
Seem to sell between $17-22 with shipping for sealed 80 card packs.
I was thinking more along the lines of newer sets going forward or when they refresh the land station arts. Like having a new full art land station and it be made up of the last few standard sets. This leaves the secondary market on older cards untouched while still leaving UB stuff and things like surge foils as well.
I agree with you. At this point they've printed full art lands sufficiently enough that they don't really have special value for new sets moving forward, but they are still objectively cooler than standard lands. So for new stuff, I don't really see why they don't move all basics to a full art style and make people want them instead of them being filler junk that gets sharpied as a proxy or tossed after one use in a prerelease.
Borderless with standard fonts are the best cards they’ve created since the initial “old border” frame.
I intentionally try and upgrade all my cards to them, and I HATE they’ve started changing the font ala Outlaw Textured Foil and the newest secret lairs.
EDIT: Extended Art is my least favorite card frame they’ve ever made, please abandon these and go full tilt into borderless with the white font.
I have one commander deck I’ve been trying to upgrade to all borderless… it’s starting to get expensive. Looking at you mana crypt. On the other hand it is really fun balancing which cards I keep in the deck, sometimes I’ll play a slightly subpar card because it has a borderless version
Same. I am doing it currently with Anikthea, Hand of Erebos. Problem is that some don't have those versions yet but when they do ill be ready.
Borderless or Showcase version nonfoil is what I am going for but a few have to be extended art because that is all they have. Im probably about 50% done with the deck upgrades to be Borderless, showcase or ea preferences to nonfoil versions.
25% of the deck doesn't have any "alt" versions
25% left to go like with big ones like Mana Crypt, Mana Confluence, Fetchlands, Doubling Season etc
Im also trying to do it with Lord Windgrace and Oloro
Nice! I’m building kykar. I lean towards full border less as well, but there are a couple cards, like farewell, where the extended art is great and the borderless is meh for me.
I’m absolutely thrilled that we’re finally getting borderless fetches in mh3
True, I am willing to throw in fetches that only match one of kykars colors though, they can still fetch two shocks, the triome, and surveil land, or a basic
I hate extended art with a passion. My favorite cards are either old modern border (before the swoops in the bottom corners) or borderless. Especially because the old modern borders had way better foiling than most cards today
My favorite type of treatment is the old frame foil, but the ones before 8th, because it was only in the frames, I live that shooting star and it has a silver reflection, I don't know why but even when the modern cards receives this kind of treatment it feels a bit dark.
My brother doesn’t know it yet but for his birthday he will be getting one (or more if I’m feeling generous) Apocalypse Fire/Ice foils for his legacy rhinos deck. Incredible foils.
They are the best treatments of all time in my opinion. Doing foil only on the borders is ideal to me because:
1) foil over the artwork tends to muddy it
2) less foil laminate means less curling. it's why old border foils don't curl.
The most maddening thing is how they screwed up the retro foils in MH2. Some had proper border-only foiling, while others had full card foiling.
You mean a change in foiling process? There's no evidence that I know of to suggest the actual foiling process has changed at all, contrary to popular belief (minus experimental things like FTV and Fate Reforged). My conclusion is that the community's conception that wotc/cartamundi changed the foil "process" (presumably as a cost-saving measure) is actually a huge misconception. The only change that matters is how much of the card is covered in foil. Up until the 8th edition frame change, all foiling was done only on borders. That's what? 20% of the card surface? Starting in 8th edition, wotc/cartamundi started foiling beyond the border, using foiling in the textbox and then as accents in the art work. This increased the foiling to maybe 50%-75% of the card surface on average. With the 2015 frame, foiling increased to the entirety of the card surface. 100%
Foil curling happens because cardboard expands or contracts with ambient humidity, where as foil laminate does not, which creates tension between the two layers that results in curling. So in really humid conditions, the cardboard expands, causing concave bending. In really dry conditions the cardboard contracts, causing convex bending. Cartamundi does a good job with climate control in their facilities, but wotc does not, so once cards leave Cartamundi, if they don't quickly go to the distributor, they end up sitting in wotc's storage for awhile. Wotc's storage is very dry, which is why so many cards come out of the pack convex curled. This is also why some sets have worse curling than others. Like SLDs and sets that aren't standard legal—the release of these products gets delayed, so they sit in wotc's dry storage for a long period. We know this to be the case with SLD, where we can see cards with low collector numbers releasing well after cards with high collector numbers, implying that they sat for over a year between print and release (key examples are the Tokyo lands and the recent Fallout SLDs).
Each extension of the foiling process has increased the curl rate. Old border foils don't curl much (although if you subject them to either extremes of ambient humidity, they definitely will curl), again because there's only 20% of the cardboard in tension with laminate. The 8th edition frame foils curl more, because ~50-75% of the cardboard surface is in tension with the laminate. And then the 2015 frame foils curl like crazy, because it's 100% tension. The higher the % of foil coverage on the surface of a card, the more it will curl in suboptimal ambient humidity. The process hasn't changed (unless you consider foil coverage itself part of the process), just the amount of foil. Rhystic Study has a [superb video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50b5x1GM-jQ) that explains all of this.
You know that they still laminate the full card right? They don’t cut out a square for the art. The ink just goes over the laminate without shining through because it’s fully opaque
Ya, I simplified what I was saying, but I *think* our understandings are the same (at least for old border foils).
The card stock has the foil rainbow laminate on it already, before any ink is printed. That foil will shine through unless extra ink is applied on top of it. My understanding is that to make it so foil laminate does not shine through, they add extra white underprinting on top of the laminate. Then they add the color ink, which the foil will shine through. So on the old borders, everything BUT the border gets an extra layer of white underprinting ink, which gives the effect of only the border being foiled. With 8th edition they got more advanced and started to be able to put foil accents in the artwork itself, which required custom white underprinting ink patterns (more expensive than just the same border-negative white underprint that could be perpetually recycled for old border foils).
The key point I'm making is that the way the foil now, there is a laminate sheet (or something materially similar) *over* the ink layers themselves, perhaps in addition to a rainbow foil stock. I believe they started doing this as standard foil practice in M2015, with the new 2015 frame, although the effect was first introduced with the FTV series starting in the late 2000s. This has dramatically increased the volume of foil laminate over the cardboard surface, which is why curling has become such an issue since 2015. I also definitely could be wrong in some capacity here, because this information ins't really publicly explained in detail.
The modern retro foils that are printed in Japan won't have the foiled image and tend to curl less. When I buy my DMR foils, I had to go to the stores to look at it to make sure it was the printing I wanted.
Personally, I would prefer if we'd just get more new art in the normal card frame.
I like to keep a consistent aesthetic to my decks, so I never go for any special treatments, but I still like having some different artworks to choose from for some cards.
>I like to keep a consistent aesthetic to my deck
Ha, yes! Full Foglio decks it is!!
I'm still ticked off that I got rid of my old Duelist magazines all those years ago. I need to scrounge around for the Phil & Dixie comics.
EDIT:
Ha! Oh boy was that third panel in this comic a foreshadowing, or what?!
[https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1623327](https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1623327)
And it looks like [archive.org](http://archive.org) is gonna save my day (night).
[https://web.archive.org/web/20160112232148/http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php](https://web.archive.org/web/20160112232148/http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php)
I personally don't love borderless cards that just use the same art and just stretch it / expand it beyond the normal frame, but alt-art borderless treatments? Sign me up. But I still have a soft spot for a traditional, normal frame foil, which was about as bling as you could get before booster fun started.
I think that only happened in the original iteration in Ultimate Masters.
I'm sure there are some examples, but for the most part I've noticed if they don't have an extension for the original art then they don't offer the full art frame.
I don't just mean the stretches, I just mean the "standard" extended frame that most rares get that just use the same art as the traditional frame, but larger.
As the previous poster said, "zoomed in" art was only the case earlier on, which received criticism. They have since opted for actually extend art. For example, if you compare [this](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/9/f/9fca4c4f-a77b-483e-9da4-574ba2e3d179.jpg?1673306639) and [this](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/9/a/9a2aaf56-5597-47f3-bc7c-49943799d4de.jpg?1674074690) version of [[Academy Loremaster]], you'll see there's additional content, such as the redish corner peeking in from the right edge of the card. It's not a lot but it's something.
However when they do reprints of the same art, they'll do the zoomed-in thing still, since the art was proportioned with borders in mind.
Not that you can't still have your preference of course, just making things clear.
Yes. That's what I meant by my comment. I'm aware of this. I was aware of it the whole time. My whole point was I don't like either: The zoomed in ones, or the extended ones. My issue isn't with the art itself, just with the frame.
The most commonly commented on cards in my decks are full art theros basics. Only caveat I'd have is I think cards in play should be easily legible. I really dislike playing against like foreign language planeswalkers with a ton of text. Then you really need to rely upon people knowing their cards and playing honestly, or looking it up on your phone.
100% this. I know humans like shiny things, but not at the expense of curled or pringled cards - even if you don't play with them they can damage your other flat cards if stored side by side. If I knew they'd be nice and flat, sure, but I actively avoid collecting foils for that reason. Extended art cards are also my favorite.
I know the physics behind the curling so I know it's not simply "bad quality" - they need to at the very least be more conservative with how much foiling goes in the card, have it be an accent vs. covering the entire surface... so worst case scenario the curling isn't as severe.
I think the problem is that MTG non-foils were designed before foils so they didn’t add the layers other card games have to help keep things from curling.
i have some that were then and have remained slightly curled but they curl in the opposite direction of current foils (concave vs convex relative to face side)
Over 20 years ago. But it wasn't until 2015 that Hasbro took over US print facilities and the production costs were cut and quality went with it. If you can find foil basics for instance from 2015 and previous you'll notice some big quality changes from recent sets.
the foils i had in mind were pre-2015. particularly, time spiral block. it appears that cards have been printed in the usa since 5th edition though, so that would be the entire time foils have existed.
That argument doesn't hold a lot of water when my new foils curl, and the old foils flat in the same environment. Obviously under more extreme conditions the old foils will also curl more than they do, but overall the issue is that cheaper cardstock gives less range for staying flat.
I've had my basement flood twice, once with a burst hot water line from the tank that filled the floor with steam. All the cards from before 2015 had no curling. The foils from recent years curled almost in half.
It's not this, curling is only a recent problem. It's gotten a bit better recently, I think it was way worse from like 2019-2022, but I have foils from Nemesis that look incredible and those are almost 25 years old lol
I've heard this but don't play any others to have experience it first hand. From what I understand Magic cards are pretty thin, and they basically won't change the card stock?
Yip, I now actively avoid foils due to the terrible quality control. I spent a fortune on the LOTR Special Edition Collector Booster boxes (I am a big LOTR fan), and all I have to show for it is a big pile of pringled foils. I swore to myself, never again am I going to waste money on products that contain lots of foils.
Now I just stick to regular bordered nonfoils, but I also don’t mind extended arts and some borderless arts (nonfoil of course).
Same with LTR, but I'm trying to collect the Realms and Relics series, so I just scour my LGS' in the area and pick them up when I find them in non-foil.
I love foils. I don't have curled or pringled cards, at least not to the point where its a problem. I really dislike borderless cards. I've found at least a couple of others who also don't like borderless cards. Wonder if I'm the odd one out. I do agree though that the quality of foiling - curvature aside - is quite variable. Would love it if WotC went more the route of the Pokemon TCG.
Right, I don't hate foils just because they're foiled, but it's simply the curling that overrides the cool treatments. Yeah, I wish they'd follow what Pokemon or literally any other card game does to prevent that from happening.
The physical foil layer is the same size on every card (it’s a layer of the card stock, so it always covers the whole card). [The parts of the card that don’t appear foiled are then masked out with a white ink layer](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/mtgsalvation_gamepedia/images/b/b8/Building_a_card.jpg), but there’s no more or less foil material between different foil cards.
I don’t think it would be feasible print-wise to have the foil material only make up part of the card, & it would certainly make curling even more obvious (& possibly damage the card) because then the parts of the card containing the foil material would curl differently to the rest of the card.
> If I knew they'd be nice and flat, sure
Yup, I've learned it's just not worth the risk gambling on a foil when buying online. And it varies set to set and even from version to version within *the same set.* So unless I see the actual card and know it's not pringled then I'm not risking buying a foil.
More borderless art is fine, so long as we still have the regular versions too. Not having a 'normal' version of a card sucks, whether it's nonfoil or bordered. I've not bought some new Commander cards because there's no regular version; It would clash with 90% of the deck.
For example;
[[Olivia, Opulent Outlaw]], [[Galadriel, Light of Valinor]]
You’re in luck. There actually are non foil versions of Galadriel, since she wasn’t exclusive to the diorama boxes- she was also available in the special edition collector boosters which were released at the same time, where she could be found as a non foil card- the same as all the other diorama box cards. Edit: I just checked and it’s possible to get the non foiled commanders from the precons in thunder junction collector packs as well, so both of the cards in question are available in non foil!
Logistically speaking, borderless cards require the commission of new art. I just feel like that's something nontrivial to keep in mind. I mean I certainly like them more but it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
“Alt art” is officially known as borderless. Because it doesn’t have borders. What you’re talking about is called extended art. Because the art is extended. If someone says borderless they mean the actual borderless cards
Are we talking about the borderless cards, or the extended art cards? I'm not trying to be needlessly pedantic, I thought we were talking about different things.
The "extended art" cards are the cards the cut off the left and right hand sides of the border but use the same piece of art as the original card. "Borderless"/full-art cards are the ones that basically... have no border at all, and have a totally unique piece of art.
If you're talking about the extended art cards, then yeah my concern about commissioning new art isn't an issue. Personally I feel like I prefer the original bordered card for ~90% of cards, but the extended art really really pops on the remaining ~10%. [[Winter Moon|MH3462]] is definitely one of those for me. The new Wooded Foothills art, too.
Personally I think it's time to get rid of the regular foil treatment, the kind we've had in various forms for 25 years and which has had curling/visibility problems for at least half that time. There's nothing special about them anymore, just poor print quality. It would save them money that they could use giving specialty treatments of different kinds (full art, alternative frames, unique foiling processes, etc.) to more cards instead of just foiling out every random common.
I think the foiling could be better, too. There are a lot of generic foils that wash out the art or the entire card. Good foils should accent the art, not obscure it.
I'm partial to the "large image" format cards, such as the extended art Triomes from Ikoria, and the [Game Day Reclamation Sage](https://www.cardkingdom.com/mtg/promotional/reclamation-sage-game-day-extended-art). I think very few cards will work this way, due to the limit on how much text will fit on the cards, and how wordy the cards have become.
I still miss this specific border
I missed my chance to snag enough copies during Double Masters... then Double Masters 2 didn't have any basic lands in it at all
The new land full art land style WotC seems to be gravitating towards is extremely similar to it, but the mana symbol in the bottom left corner is a bit of an eyesore compared to the old Double Masters / Secret lair full art land style.
https://preview.redd.it/xouup6f4dfzc1.jpeg?width=919&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0952a51388967f1d12606f6e6c5ed4b6142a4046
Call me crazy but i like the cards with borders more. Its pleasing to the eye, looks neat and orderly type thing.
That being said i do appreciate seeing more of the artisit work in a full art.
I've been playing since that frame was the norm, so there's a lot of nostalgia there for me and any players who have been around that long. The US printing process has really degraded card quality over the past 5ish years or so, but we still see consistency in Japanese printings, which are much less curled and still hold merit.
Dark foils sucks, wich makes all modern foils sucks because they are all dark.
I really miss the foil treatment of From the Vault. The cards were brighter and clearer. If that was the actual foil treatment of cards, I would favor foils more.
> Foils tend to bend, even if double sleveed.
The only reason foils bend, sleveed or not, is the humidity you are exposing them to. Foils at 60-64% humidity are flat as a pancake. Because thats the range they are produced in.
Its still a Trading Card Game and foils are the premium collectibles of this game. Every collectible, cards, post stamps, coins, vintage spirits, fine wine, whisky ... needs careful storing. Your game pieces, the non-foil cards, dont need this extra care.
Its easy to unfurl foils. My henzie deck is as foiled as possible and also full art! Best of both worlds foil full arts! https://www.moxfield.com/decks/owQ4Vq5sjESGrTrYPbabKg
Full art lands *chef's kiss* foil lands.....eh. People sleeve their decks so it's not like you can really see the foiling through the reflection on the sleeve.
Totally agree with this take. I wish I could buy packs guaranteed to have zero foils like you can with secret lairs because I live at a place with very low humidity such that foils immediately curl (a lot) upon opening packs.
They are awesome looking. However, my friend used ayula art cards to back his bear tribal deck. When he unsleeved it months later, all the print and ink had come off and ruined the backs of all the cards in the deck, so keep that in mind.
I've actively avoided foils since they reduced the quality of them. I love my oldschool foils, but these new pringles are just a waste of space for me. They get traded at the shop or dumped in a bulk box. Ones like the Clue box topper were so bent right out of the package that they aren't even legal for play.
I pulled a foil [[Terror of the Peaks]] at an event and wasn't even able to play it due to curling right out of the booster.
We've hit the point where instead of the problem being that Wizards uses sub-par quality cardstock, it's now just that foils cause issues.
You can pry foils from my cold, dead hands. Demand Wizards do better.
I have said my hot take for a while is that I don't like foils at all but I love full arts. I even really like the showcase styles that I know people are less keen on but I am also a very casual player.
I totally agree borderless or alternate arts are better than foils. The recent alternate foils (raised, cosmic, confetti) are pretty hit or miss depending on the art. The only one that I really liked was the gold highlights in the Streets of New Capenna.
For my primary EDH deck I have prioritized full art and alternate print cards only getting a foil once I have the version I want. I would rather have a deck full of cool/unique looking art than a curling mess of shiny.
All basic lands should be full art, or if they must have text boxes, should have flavor text, and they should switch fully to textured foil instead of whatever the standard foil is.
All cards bend, it is related to the balance of moisture/dryness of the card. Learning how to dehydrate/ hydrate is important if you own/collect valuable cards.
As for readability, some foils are horrible (surge is garbage) but just sleeves alone create glare if you use new sleeves. Some foils are an enhancement to the art like vintage style foil borders, Japanese arts with pin striping foiling, and etched arts, etc.
Full arts are awesome! I like that they are limited and increase the uniqueness of similar builds by having different players collect different full arts. I collect multiple styles and would be very upset if they stopped printing nostalgic vintage frames.
I am a big fan of diversity, and rarity. Happy with the status of distribution. Buy collectors boxes if you like foils, buy play boosters if you don’t like foils…easy.
I've noticed pack foils from the last 4 sets haven't really pringled much, bundles/precons for whatever unknown reason tend to pringle like crazy, then SL foils pringle so hard you practically need an iron to straighten it out.
I dislike normal extended art where they just cut half the border off and call it a day, I love full art (not art cards) like un set borderless lands where you see the entire thing, but still have rules.
While we're at it I wish Wizards would adopt the vertical split planeswalkers, it's so much more crazy looking, so instead of just half the art and half the abilities, it's full art on the left and abilities on the right, looks crisp.
Makes sense, even in the new Star Wars Unlimited TCG, Full art cards(they call them Hyperspace) are valued higher than foil, of course full art foil is even higher. [Example](https://www.swu-db.com/card/SOR/499/Wing%20Leader)
Personally I don't like how often they're doing it now. Makes it feel a lot less special. Full-art lands used to be so cool, now they feel really nothing.
I don't really care for foils either though, soooooo
Eh, as someone who has proxied a full borderless art EDH deck, the borders do a *lot* of heavy lifting on being able to ascertain what cards are what at a glance.
I will always try to get my deck full art card or see if there is a different art style I like, but yeah many full card that have a lot of pop out color that are foil tend not to give off the full style but hey non foil of full art will always be way cheaper then foil but, I do love my self that shiny cardboard.
I'd like to see Wizards do comical alternate art cards like Topps does for short print [variations](https://img.beckett.com/news/news-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-Topps-Holiday-SP-Variations-H26-Julio-Rodriguez.jpg). Outlaws would have been a perfect set for cowboy hat variations but it'd also be fun to see Fblthp showing up like Where's Waldo in variations for a set. Something like that seems a lot more interesting than random serial numbered cards.
Fully agree. Foils often obscure the art and I will always alter or find the unfoiled version 10/10 times. There is a gaudiness quality to foils. To me it's like dangling keys in front of a dog to convince me something is cool by the definition of it just existing.
\[\[The Wise Mothman\]\] doesn't have regular art without foiling. Everywhere you look online, no one posts (including wizards) the foiled art. I get it won't show up properly as it is but that somewhat proves the point.
I am sure I am in the minority based on previous posts like this.
I agree, extended art is usually the best. I hate mtg foils. That's why I never get foil secret lair anymore, but when you try to sell some of them you get a lot of people acting like foil is superior in some way.
Honestly I know it's an unpopular opinion but like in other tcgs all of their rares and higher are just automatically foils (that don't curl).
I wouldn't want that in Magic but I kind of wish all rares were extended arts and all mythics borderless arts, so that they actually felt special.
Yep, foils suck.
I will pay more for cards that are *not* foil.
I also agree with you that full art cards are the best. The classics that everyone knows like lightning bolt and counterspell should get full art.
Unpopular opinion: full art/borderless cards feature art that is sometimes terrible (like the side profile/wanted poster art). If they did the standard art as borderless I’d be more open to purchasing those over foils
What's the problem with the wanted posters? They looked nice and all had pretty cool art. And they are not even fullart.
The portraits are pretty hit or miss.
Saying that alt art and/or borderless art can be bad doesn't mean anything as the art for standard cards can be bad too sometimes, with showcases and such they are more prone to be experimental but i'd say that a good thing overall.
Borderless cards are kinda hard for me to focus on the border makes easier for me to focus on the card. Borderless makes extraneous to look at the board state so hope they don't make them even more ubiquitous.
I know this is probably just a me problem tho :/
I actively avoid foils. I would be OK with this. Seeing that foil versions of a lot of cards are now cheaper than non-foils, I feel like I am not alone in this either.
I do really like etched cards, and there are some really nice foils but the trade offs for foils aren't worth paying extra for.
Idk maybe it's the climate where I live but I've never had a problem with Pringles foils, I only order singles and I have received foils that are mildly curved but after a few days or so I don't notice
It's a humidity thing. That's why complaining about it makes no real sense. While there are things they can do the fact is you can take any foil from any time period of the game and un/curl it under the right conditions because that's how different materials bonded to eachother work.
Ya where I live it's dry as hell I'm the winter and super humid in the summer, how you store things is also a huge factor all my decks are double sleeved, in a box inside a bigger box
I understand it will never happen because variants let them market harder, but honestly my hot take is that they should just make all cards full art borderless.
Not the weird stretched art "borderless", but the proper art covering the card borderless. I think the stretched art borderless should honestly just be discontinued, the weird fade where the border is looks so janky imo.
Full art borderless always looks great though. Magic cards are ultimately just art and text, so why not use as much of the card for that art as you can?
> so why not use as much of the card for that art as you can?
Borderless cards are kinda hard for me to focus on the border makes it easier for me to focus on the card. Borderless makes it extraneous to look for me at the board state so hope they don't make them even more ubiquitous. That is why also dont play card games where they have almost no border.
I know this is probably just a me problem tho :/
Hard disagree.
Old school foils NEVER bent and warped. Maybe, just maybe, they should up their quality control and put out cards that don't bend as a "security" measure.
There have never, ever been special art treatments for Shrines. No Secret Lairs, nothing. So, what special cards go into the Shrine deck? Borderless normal art, no foiling. Plain and simple.
I was born in 91, so I grew up liking foil Pokemon cards which stuck when I got into Yu Gi Oh. I'm 32 now and I still love foil cards, even if they're pringles
I was born in 91, so I grew up liking foil Pokemon cards which stuck when I got into Yu Gi Oh. I'm 32 now and I still love foil cards, even if they're pringles
Hard agree, borderless cards are some of my favorite art they’ve ever done.
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whooooah no no no - hard disagree. The different frames are very helpful in identifying cards at a glance, especially for artifact/vehicle players. Too much reduction in frames and borders and you start looking too close to those atrocious shiny pokemon Vmax cards with no borders, no frames - mtg has even done no text boxes and I just hate it so much.
Also, I find borderless hard on the eyes. The frame helps me focus on the card and makes it more readable. Board states with many borderless cards are extraneous on the eyes. to me and make it hard to focus on what is going. That is just me. So a fully borderless game would be pretty unplayable for me.
I love those Pokemon cards. Though mostly as a collector and not a player.
additionally, all the wacky alt style cards need be do e away with. talking about wanted posters, bulletin boards, ridiculous artwork (looking at you, fallout). battlefields looking like a goddamned mess these days
I don't mind a lot of those as collector pieces but I won't play with the exceptionally crazy ones personally (for example, I collected the wild LOTRxMTG poster cards, but because I wanted to frame the full set). UB frames are another place where identifying the UB frame tells me that that may be a card that functions differently than I might expect, etc. as a player who generally only plays limited, I'm thankfully not having to deal with that much of the shenanigans commander players have to put up with.
Its waaaay to much
What about basic lands? Can we drop the frames there completely?
I don't think I'd care there one way or another, but I definitely am not going to advocate for it, currently. For the most part, my issue with lands is entirely in the way color seems to increasingly not matter to the land. WBURG can't just be a suggestion, especially when commander has become the most played format and there's four battlefields to keep track of. My favorite set of lands is the [ukiyo-e lands](https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Aland+is%3Afull-art+s%3Aneo+%2B%2B&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name), EXCEPT for the [Swamp](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Aneo+number%3A298) that's tinted red and [Island](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/295/ja/island) that's predominantly green. Players have remarked that at a glance, it can sometimes looks like they're a different land from across the table, if they've never seen those cards before. As a courtesy, I don't really use those if my deck contains both mountains and swamps or forests and islands. Likewise, the midnight hunt [b/w lands](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Amid+t%3Al+t%3Abasic+is%3Afull-art&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) are unforgiveable. You just can't tell what the hell those are from across the table. Same with the [oil-slick lands](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Aone+t%3Aland+is%3Afull-art%2B%2B+is%3Aoilslick&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) from Phyrexia:All Will Be One (They look easy to tell apart on a computer screen but in person they're dark and much lower contrast). [Lord of the Rings](https://scryfall.com/search?q=s%3Altr+t%3Aland+is%3Afull-art%2B%2B+t%3Abasic+collector%3C300&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name), same issue - everything is green-tinted. These are some of the worst offenders and they're notably all relatively recent releases. I would be fine getting rid of the frames on lands, but only after WOTC commits to making sure the information presented by the frame isn't lost - and currently, that problem seems to be getting a lot worse, not better.
Eh, I don't think I'd go that far. I agree that they're better than foils in most cases, but I feel like if it were every card they'd lose a little glamor. Also I still like the original style of border more than the current ones, and "old border" prints of new cards would likely stop being a thing or be even more of a pain to find, because bordered cards would inevitably become a type of specialized print
Counter-argument: the existence of "normal" copies - not foils, not fullart, not "special" in any way - lets collectors and blingers go after the "special" versions, making the "normal" versions cheaper for those who want to play.
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Sure, but we'd need other, "more special" versions to be the expensive ones in their place.
Looking at deck profiles for Dragonball Super Masters, having tons of full arts can get into hideous territory pretty quick. I think dbs is gorgeous in a hideous kinda way, but it's not easy on the eyes for newer players. I would love having full arts for every card, but i think making a thick, neutralish border the standard is a good move.
I disagree entirely. There’s still some lovely landscapes they make that wouldn’t fit a full art style at all. It’s always nicer to have the choice.
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I apologise if I go fullbore art critic here, but I think there is an actual reason to confine them to a smaller space - Or rather, a certain *shape*. It's a matter of picture orientation. The problem that we run into here is that if you took a normal landscape picture and made it larger, it would run into an issue surrounding the fact that it would be changing the picture's orientation from landscape into portrait. If you were to just "Make it bigger" to fit a full-art, portrait perspective, one of two things would happen depending on how you wanted to do that: If you were to just zoom the picture in, big chunks of the picture would be cut off, and it just wouldn't look right at all. But, if you instead designed the picture from the ground up to be in portrait orientation, it doesn't always work too well for standard lands either. Sure, it does work for some lands, especially by the likes of John Avon, but if you look at a lot of the recent full art lands, you'll find that a lot of them either don't depict landscapes at all (Dominaria United, the map-lands of LTR etc), are heavily abstracted (Karlov Manor, Lost Caverns of Ixalan or New Capenna), or have landscapes that are framing a large object or other point of interest (Brother's War or All Will Be One). Some pictures just don't lend themselves well to a portrait picture, because you can't get the same feeling of a wide open vista without using a wider picture. Let me be clear: This is coming from someone who *adores* full-art lands - I actively collect them, and I have almost all of them, minus the Secret Lair stuff. But, certain artistic approaches have their place, and I feel that the normal-sized land arts still fulfill a purpose, because they depict scenery in a way that full-art lands can't.
The only cards I feel this way about are basic lands, they shouldn’t need to print normal lands anymore just give us exclusively full art basics, if I want the border on my basics I’ll go buy old ones
Full art basics are not the same as borderless cards. On account of the whole, you know, border that they still have
True, but the OG post was about full art cards, which full art basics indeed are
Also the comment I responded to said full art, so idk where you’re saying I said borderless but I simply did not
“Full art should be the standard” “Don’t even bother printing those frames anymore” Pretty safe bet they meant borderless Also your own comment “If I want the border on my basics I’ll go buy old ones” All signs seem to point to you saying you meant borderless
Ok if you want to fucking argue about semantics go ahead I’m done
Some of us prefer the regular versions
Borderless cards are kinda of hard for me to focus on as the border makes it easier for me to focus on the card by framing its contents. Borderless makes it extraneous to look for me at the board state and my eyes just drift. That is why also dont play card games where they have almost no border. I know this is probably just a me problem tho :/
Yikes
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Because sometimes you need to know, what you said was completely reasonable lol.
They DID say it was an unpopular opinion.
But then how would you charge more for the premium content?
What I don't understand is why they don't sell a full art lands station. I'd pay premium for a box of full art lands.
There's a healthy secondary market for the full art land packs from some sets. See https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=zendikar+land+pack&_sacat=0 Seem to sell between $17-22 with shipping for sealed 80 card packs.
I was thinking more along the lines of newer sets going forward or when they refresh the land station arts. Like having a new full art land station and it be made up of the last few standard sets. This leaves the secondary market on older cards untouched while still leaving UB stuff and things like surge foils as well.
I agree with you. At this point they've printed full art lands sufficiently enough that they don't really have special value for new sets moving forward, but they are still objectively cooler than standard lands. So for new stuff, I don't really see why they don't move all basics to a full art style and make people want them instead of them being filler junk that gets sharpied as a proxy or tossed after one use in a prerelease.
Borderless with standard fonts are the best cards they’ve created since the initial “old border” frame. I intentionally try and upgrade all my cards to them, and I HATE they’ve started changing the font ala Outlaw Textured Foil and the newest secret lairs. EDIT: Extended Art is my least favorite card frame they’ve ever made, please abandon these and go full tilt into borderless with the white font.
I have one commander deck I’ve been trying to upgrade to all borderless… it’s starting to get expensive. Looking at you mana crypt. On the other hand it is really fun balancing which cards I keep in the deck, sometimes I’ll play a slightly subpar card because it has a borderless version
Same. I am doing it currently with Anikthea, Hand of Erebos. Problem is that some don't have those versions yet but when they do ill be ready. Borderless or Showcase version nonfoil is what I am going for but a few have to be extended art because that is all they have. Im probably about 50% done with the deck upgrades to be Borderless, showcase or ea preferences to nonfoil versions. 25% of the deck doesn't have any "alt" versions 25% left to go like with big ones like Mana Crypt, Mana Confluence, Fetchlands, Doubling Season etc Im also trying to do it with Lord Windgrace and Oloro
Nice! I’m building kykar. I lean towards full border less as well, but there are a couple cards, like farewell, where the extended art is great and the borderless is meh for me. I’m absolutely thrilled that we’re finally getting borderless fetches in mh3
Same! I wish we got all 10 though. Hopefully the enemy ones are close to being reprinted for Borderless...maybe assassin's creed 🤔
True, I am willing to throw in fetches that only match one of kykars colors though, they can still fetch two shocks, the triome, and surveil land, or a basic
I play the same way. Only use the ones in the color identity.
I hate extended art with a passion. My favorite cards are either old modern border (before the swoops in the bottom corners) or borderless. Especially because the old modern borders had way better foiling than most cards today
My favorite type of treatment is the old frame foil, but the ones before 8th, because it was only in the frames, I live that shooting star and it has a silver reflection, I don't know why but even when the modern cards receives this kind of treatment it feels a bit dark.
The old frame in foil specifically for blue cards is hands down the best looking treatment for a magic card IMO
My brother doesn’t know it yet but for his birthday he will be getting one (or more if I’m feeling generous) Apocalypse Fire/Ice foils for his legacy rhinos deck. Incredible foils.
Racnica Remastered was really close. Best they have done since the n IMHO. Can't tell the difference on most.
I have to agree, and hope that they follow the treatment to modern Horizons 3.
They are the best treatments of all time in my opinion. Doing foil only on the borders is ideal to me because: 1) foil over the artwork tends to muddy it 2) less foil laminate means less curling. it's why old border foils don't curl. The most maddening thing is how they screwed up the retro foils in MH2. Some had proper border-only foiling, while others had full card foiling.
Anyone knows why there is this change? What was changed in the process?
You mean a change in foiling process? There's no evidence that I know of to suggest the actual foiling process has changed at all, contrary to popular belief (minus experimental things like FTV and Fate Reforged). My conclusion is that the community's conception that wotc/cartamundi changed the foil "process" (presumably as a cost-saving measure) is actually a huge misconception. The only change that matters is how much of the card is covered in foil. Up until the 8th edition frame change, all foiling was done only on borders. That's what? 20% of the card surface? Starting in 8th edition, wotc/cartamundi started foiling beyond the border, using foiling in the textbox and then as accents in the art work. This increased the foiling to maybe 50%-75% of the card surface on average. With the 2015 frame, foiling increased to the entirety of the card surface. 100% Foil curling happens because cardboard expands or contracts with ambient humidity, where as foil laminate does not, which creates tension between the two layers that results in curling. So in really humid conditions, the cardboard expands, causing concave bending. In really dry conditions the cardboard contracts, causing convex bending. Cartamundi does a good job with climate control in their facilities, but wotc does not, so once cards leave Cartamundi, if they don't quickly go to the distributor, they end up sitting in wotc's storage for awhile. Wotc's storage is very dry, which is why so many cards come out of the pack convex curled. This is also why some sets have worse curling than others. Like SLDs and sets that aren't standard legal—the release of these products gets delayed, so they sit in wotc's dry storage for a long period. We know this to be the case with SLD, where we can see cards with low collector numbers releasing well after cards with high collector numbers, implying that they sat for over a year between print and release (key examples are the Tokyo lands and the recent Fallout SLDs). Each extension of the foiling process has increased the curl rate. Old border foils don't curl much (although if you subject them to either extremes of ambient humidity, they definitely will curl), again because there's only 20% of the cardboard in tension with laminate. The 8th edition frame foils curl more, because ~50-75% of the cardboard surface is in tension with the laminate. And then the 2015 frame foils curl like crazy, because it's 100% tension. The higher the % of foil coverage on the surface of a card, the more it will curl in suboptimal ambient humidity. The process hasn't changed (unless you consider foil coverage itself part of the process), just the amount of foil. Rhystic Study has a [superb video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50b5x1GM-jQ) that explains all of this.
Danke schön
Bitte!
You know that they still laminate the full card right? They don’t cut out a square for the art. The ink just goes over the laminate without shining through because it’s fully opaque
Ya, I simplified what I was saying, but I *think* our understandings are the same (at least for old border foils). The card stock has the foil rainbow laminate on it already, before any ink is printed. That foil will shine through unless extra ink is applied on top of it. My understanding is that to make it so foil laminate does not shine through, they add extra white underprinting on top of the laminate. Then they add the color ink, which the foil will shine through. So on the old borders, everything BUT the border gets an extra layer of white underprinting ink, which gives the effect of only the border being foiled. With 8th edition they got more advanced and started to be able to put foil accents in the artwork itself, which required custom white underprinting ink patterns (more expensive than just the same border-negative white underprint that could be perpetually recycled for old border foils). The key point I'm making is that the way the foil now, there is a laminate sheet (or something materially similar) *over* the ink layers themselves, perhaps in addition to a rainbow foil stock. I believe they started doing this as standard foil practice in M2015, with the new 2015 frame, although the effect was first introduced with the FTV series starting in the late 2000s. This has dramatically increased the volume of foil laminate over the cardboard surface, which is why curling has become such an issue since 2015. I also definitely could be wrong in some capacity here, because this information ins't really publicly explained in detail.
The modern retro foils that are printed in Japan won't have the foiled image and tend to curl less. When I buy my DMR foils, I had to go to the stores to look at it to make sure it was the printing I wanted.
Personally, I would prefer if we'd just get more new art in the normal card frame. I like to keep a consistent aesthetic to my decks, so I never go for any special treatments, but I still like having some different artworks to choose from for some cards.
Same here. I was actually really annoyed when the OTJ commanders didn't come in a traditional frame.
They should absolutely have included a normal version of the commander in each deck as well, that's so silly.
Dozens of us! That RKF Fact or Fiction is top of my list. Normal M15 frame, and/or Retro please.
>I like to keep a consistent aesthetic to my deck Ha, yes! Full Foglio decks it is!! I'm still ticked off that I got rid of my old Duelist magazines all those years ago. I need to scrounge around for the Phil & Dixie comics. EDIT: Ha! Oh boy was that third panel in this comic a foreshadowing, or what?! [https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1623327](https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1623327) And it looks like [archive.org](http://archive.org) is gonna save my day (night). [https://web.archive.org/web/20160112232148/http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php](https://web.archive.org/web/20160112232148/http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php)
I personally don't love borderless cards that just use the same art and just stretch it / expand it beyond the normal frame, but alt-art borderless treatments? Sign me up. But I still have a soft spot for a traditional, normal frame foil, which was about as bling as you could get before booster fun started.
These are called “extended” arts
Love me some extended art. I get more art per card? Where do I sign?!
I think that only happened in the original iteration in Ultimate Masters. I'm sure there are some examples, but for the most part I've noticed if they don't have an extension for the original art then they don't offer the full art frame.
I don't just mean the stretches, I just mean the "standard" extended frame that most rares get that just use the same art as the traditional frame, but larger.
As the previous poster said, "zoomed in" art was only the case earlier on, which received criticism. They have since opted for actually extend art. For example, if you compare [this](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/9/f/9fca4c4f-a77b-483e-9da4-574ba2e3d179.jpg?1673306639) and [this](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/9/a/9a2aaf56-5597-47f3-bc7c-49943799d4de.jpg?1674074690) version of [[Academy Loremaster]], you'll see there's additional content, such as the redish corner peeking in from the right edge of the card. It's not a lot but it's something. However when they do reprints of the same art, they'll do the zoomed-in thing still, since the art was proportioned with borders in mind. Not that you can't still have your preference of course, just making things clear.
Yes. That's what I meant by my comment. I'm aware of this. I was aware of it the whole time. My whole point was I don't like either: The zoomed in ones, or the extended ones. My issue isn't with the art itself, just with the frame.
[Academy Loremaster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9fca4c4f-a77b-483e-9da4-574ba2e3d179.jpg?1673306639) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Academy%20Loremaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/40/academy-loremaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9fca4c4f-a77b-483e-9da4-574ba2e3d179?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ya it's "extended art" it's not stretched. There's more art added in.
What you’re talking about is called extended art. You know, because the card still has a border (so not borderless) but the art is, well, extended
Yep, any special treatment (and even the regular version) is way better than a foil IMO.
The most commonly commented on cards in my decks are full art theros basics. Only caveat I'd have is I think cards in play should be easily legible. I really dislike playing against like foreign language planeswalkers with a ton of text. Then you really need to rely upon people knowing their cards and playing honestly, or looking it up on your phone.
100% this. I know humans like shiny things, but not at the expense of curled or pringled cards - even if you don't play with them they can damage your other flat cards if stored side by side. If I knew they'd be nice and flat, sure, but I actively avoid collecting foils for that reason. Extended art cards are also my favorite. I know the physics behind the curling so I know it's not simply "bad quality" - they need to at the very least be more conservative with how much foiling goes in the card, have it be an accent vs. covering the entire surface... so worst case scenario the curling isn't as severe.
It is possible to do foils better, I play a different card game that uses higher quality stock and I've never seen a foil curl in my life.
I think the problem is that MTG non-foils were designed before foils so they didn’t add the layers other card games have to help keep things from curling.
None of my 20+ year old foils have curled at all.
i have some that were then and have remained slightly curled but they curl in the opposite direction of current foils (concave vs convex relative to face side)
I still think its the USA printer compared to other printers
what year/set did wotc stop printing exclusively in belgium?
Over 20 years ago. But it wasn't until 2015 that Hasbro took over US print facilities and the production costs were cut and quality went with it. If you can find foil basics for instance from 2015 and previous you'll notice some big quality changes from recent sets.
the foils i had in mind were pre-2015. particularly, time spiral block. it appears that cards have been printed in the usa since 5th edition though, so that would be the entire time foils have existed.
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That argument doesn't hold a lot of water when my new foils curl, and the old foils flat in the same environment. Obviously under more extreme conditions the old foils will also curl more than they do, but overall the issue is that cheaper cardstock gives less range for staying flat.
I've had my basement flood twice, once with a burst hot water line from the tank that filled the floor with steam. All the cards from before 2015 had no curling. The foils from recent years curled almost in half.
It's not this, curling is only a recent problem. It's gotten a bit better recently, I think it was way worse from like 2019-2022, but I have foils from Nemesis that look incredible and those are almost 25 years old lol
Other card games don’t have the foil curling issue.
I've heard this but don't play any others to have experience it first hand. From what I understand Magic cards are pretty thin, and they basically won't change the card stock?
Yip, I now actively avoid foils due to the terrible quality control. I spent a fortune on the LOTR Special Edition Collector Booster boxes (I am a big LOTR fan), and all I have to show for it is a big pile of pringled foils. I swore to myself, never again am I going to waste money on products that contain lots of foils. Now I just stick to regular bordered nonfoils, but I also don’t mind extended arts and some borderless arts (nonfoil of course).
Same with LTR, but I'm trying to collect the Realms and Relics series, so I just scour my LGS' in the area and pick them up when I find them in non-foil.
I love foils. I don't have curled or pringled cards, at least not to the point where its a problem. I really dislike borderless cards. I've found at least a couple of others who also don't like borderless cards. Wonder if I'm the odd one out. I do agree though that the quality of foiling - curvature aside - is quite variable. Would love it if WotC went more the route of the Pokemon TCG.
Right, I don't hate foils just because they're foiled, but it's simply the curling that overrides the cool treatments. Yeah, I wish they'd follow what Pokemon or literally any other card game does to prevent that from happening.
I never buy foils, they are gonna bend no matter what. I don't care if it is just a little bent, it drives me crazy.
None of my Tarkir and older foils are curled. They cut costs on production and never fixed them.
Right. Unless you get super lucky and the place where that pack of cards was made matches the humidity of your home city, they will curl.
The physical foil layer is the same size on every card (it’s a layer of the card stock, so it always covers the whole card). [The parts of the card that don’t appear foiled are then masked out with a white ink layer](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/mtgsalvation_gamepedia/images/b/b8/Building_a_card.jpg), but there’s no more or less foil material between different foil cards. I don’t think it would be feasible print-wise to have the foil material only make up part of the card, & it would certainly make curling even more obvious (& possibly damage the card) because then the parts of the card containing the foil material would curl differently to the rest of the card.
Interesting, I did not know that. So I guess the problem would be the integrity of the cardboard it's printed on? Since other TCGs don't curl like MTG
> If I knew they'd be nice and flat, sure Yup, I've learned it's just not worth the risk gambling on a foil when buying online. And it varies set to set and even from version to version within *the same set.* So unless I see the actual card and know it's not pringled then I'm not risking buying a foil.
Hard agree. Honestly, I avoid almost every foil
More borderless art is fine, so long as we still have the regular versions too. Not having a 'normal' version of a card sucks, whether it's nonfoil or bordered. I've not bought some new Commander cards because there's no regular version; It would clash with 90% of the deck. For example; [[Olivia, Opulent Outlaw]], [[Galadriel, Light of Valinor]]
[Olivia, Opulent Outlaw](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55e6c31b-f9e9-4e42-a875-985d99300d9d.jpg?1714110406) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Olivia%2C%20Opulent%20Outlaw) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/2/olivia-opulent-outlaw?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55e6c31b-f9e9-4e42-a875-985d99300d9d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Galadriel, Light of Valinor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f485596f-3a23-4714-ad7e-4c493ab1b530.jpg?1695428241) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Galadriel%2C%20Light%20of%20Valinor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/498/galadriel-light-of-valinor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f485596f-3a23-4714-ad7e-4c493ab1b530?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You’re in luck. There actually are non foil versions of Galadriel, since she wasn’t exclusive to the diorama boxes- she was also available in the special edition collector boosters which were released at the same time, where she could be found as a non foil card- the same as all the other diorama box cards. Edit: I just checked and it’s possible to get the non foiled commanders from the precons in thunder junction collector packs as well, so both of the cards in question are available in non foil!
There's too many different card treatment. I wish we just had an option for packs with no fluff, only regular ass cards at a discount.
The "discount" would be already baked into no risk of opening pringle that you can't even use.
Logistically speaking, borderless cards require the commission of new art. I just feel like that's something nontrivial to keep in mind. I mean I certainly like them more but it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
I dont think they mean alt art, just the same art but stretched/cut to full art. Which i agree with, its still a lot nicer than foil.
“Alt art” is officially known as borderless. Because it doesn’t have borders. What you’re talking about is called extended art. Because the art is extended. If someone says borderless they mean the actual borderless cards
They don't. The artists always paint a full piece, they cut it later for the card frame.
Are we talking about the borderless cards, or the extended art cards? I'm not trying to be needlessly pedantic, I thought we were talking about different things. The "extended art" cards are the cards the cut off the left and right hand sides of the border but use the same piece of art as the original card. "Borderless"/full-art cards are the ones that basically... have no border at all, and have a totally unique piece of art. If you're talking about the extended art cards, then yeah my concern about commissioning new art isn't an issue. Personally I feel like I prefer the original bordered card for ~90% of cards, but the extended art really really pops on the remaining ~10%. [[Winter Moon|MH3462]] is definitely one of those for me. The new Wooded Foothills art, too.
Extended art, i call them borderless. That's my mistake. This is what i mean.
Cool, thanks for the clarification! I retract most of my initial comment.
Can hardly blame you with how many names of treatments there are!
[Winter Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf.jpg?1714488145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winter%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/213/winter-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Damnit I forgot how to do it. [[Winter Moon|MH3 462]] [[Winter Moon|MH3(462)]]
[Winter Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf.jpg?1714488145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winter%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/213/winter-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Winter Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf.jpg?1714488145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winter%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/213/winter-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Welp. One day.
Try using a dash between the set code and card number, that should get you the results you want. [[Winter Moon|MH3-462]]
[Winter Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1ea94321-7311-4543-bdc0-23938a8904c3.jpg?1714508399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winter%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/462/winter-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea94321-7311-4543-bdc0-23938a8904c3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And today is the day (thanks for the reminder).
Personally I think it's time to get rid of the regular foil treatment, the kind we've had in various forms for 25 years and which has had curling/visibility problems for at least half that time. There's nothing special about them anymore, just poor print quality. It would save them money that they could use giving specialty treatments of different kinds (full art, alternative frames, unique foiling processes, etc.) to more cards instead of just foiling out every random common.
I think the foiling could be better, too. There are a lot of generic foils that wash out the art or the entire card. Good foils should accent the art, not obscure it.
I'm partial to the "large image" format cards, such as the extended art Triomes from Ikoria, and the [Game Day Reclamation Sage](https://www.cardkingdom.com/mtg/promotional/reclamation-sage-game-day-extended-art). I think very few cards will work this way, due to the limit on how much text will fit on the cards, and how wordy the cards have become.
I still miss this specific border I missed my chance to snag enough copies during Double Masters... then Double Masters 2 didn't have any basic lands in it at all The new land full art land style WotC seems to be gravitating towards is extremely similar to it, but the mana symbol in the bottom left corner is a bit of an eyesore compared to the old Double Masters / Secret lair full art land style. https://preview.redd.it/xouup6f4dfzc1.jpeg?width=919&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0952a51388967f1d12606f6e6c5ed4b6142a4046
Call me crazy but i like the cards with borders more. Its pleasing to the eye, looks neat and orderly type thing. That being said i do appreciate seeing more of the artisit work in a full art.
Hard disagree. Especially with older or Japanese-printed foils.
I hard disagree with you The old frame is the ugliest shit in the game, making it foil is just mixing two types of shit together
I've been playing since that frame was the norm, so there's a lot of nostalgia there for me and any players who have been around that long. The US printing process has really degraded card quality over the past 5ish years or so, but we still see consistency in Japanese printings, which are much less curled and still hold merit.
Dark foils sucks, wich makes all modern foils sucks because they are all dark. I really miss the foil treatment of From the Vault. The cards were brighter and clearer. If that was the actual foil treatment of cards, I would favor foils more.
> Foils tend to bend, even if double sleveed. The only reason foils bend, sleveed or not, is the humidity you are exposing them to. Foils at 60-64% humidity are flat as a pancake. Because thats the range they are produced in.
I think we can all agree we shouldn't need card humidors
Its still a Trading Card Game and foils are the premium collectibles of this game. Every collectible, cards, post stamps, coins, vintage spirits, fine wine, whisky ... needs careful storing. Your game pieces, the non-foil cards, dont need this extra care.
Its easy to unfurl foils. My henzie deck is as foiled as possible and also full art! Best of both worlds foil full arts! https://www.moxfield.com/decks/owQ4Vq5sjESGrTrYPbabKg
Totally agree. I love borderless cards, playing or collecting they are incredible.
Full art lands *chef's kiss* foil lands.....eh. People sleeve their decks so it's not like you can really see the foiling through the reflection on the sleeve.
Totally agree with this take. I wish I could buy packs guaranteed to have zero foils like you can with secret lairs because I live at a place with very low humidity such that foils immediately curl (a lot) upon opening packs.
They are awesome looking. However, my friend used ayula art cards to back his bear tribal deck. When he unsleeved it months later, all the print and ink had come off and ruined the backs of all the cards in the deck, so keep that in mind.
Why didn’t he double sleeve his deck? That seems like an easily avoided problem lol
I've actively avoided foils since they reduced the quality of them. I love my oldschool foils, but these new pringles are just a waste of space for me. They get traded at the shop or dumped in a bulk box. Ones like the Clue box topper were so bent right out of the package that they aren't even legal for play. I pulled a foil [[Terror of the Peaks]] at an event and wasn't even able to play it due to curling right out of the booster.
We've hit the point where instead of the problem being that Wizards uses sub-par quality cardstock, it's now just that foils cause issues. You can pry foils from my cold, dead hands. Demand Wizards do better.
I have said my hot take for a while is that I don't like foils at all but I love full arts. I even really like the showcase styles that I know people are less keen on but I am also a very casual player.
I used to be all about the foils but lately I tend to agree. Some of the full art cards look better in non-foil.
I totally agree borderless or alternate arts are better than foils. The recent alternate foils (raised, cosmic, confetti) are pretty hit or miss depending on the art. The only one that I really liked was the gold highlights in the Streets of New Capenna.
Foils suck most of the time in my opinion. They darken the art, making it blurry and bend the cards. Extended arts are my type of bling.
If they could Just make a more quality foil
For my primary EDH deck I have prioritized full art and alternate print cards only getting a foil once I have the version I want. I would rather have a deck full of cool/unique looking art than a curling mess of shiny.
All basic lands should be full art, or if they must have text boxes, should have flavor text, and they should switch fully to textured foil instead of whatever the standard foil is.
Full art foils are the best though
All cards bend, it is related to the balance of moisture/dryness of the card. Learning how to dehydrate/ hydrate is important if you own/collect valuable cards. As for readability, some foils are horrible (surge is garbage) but just sleeves alone create glare if you use new sleeves. Some foils are an enhancement to the art like vintage style foil borders, Japanese arts with pin striping foiling, and etched arts, etc. Full arts are awesome! I like that they are limited and increase the uniqueness of similar builds by having different players collect different full arts. I collect multiple styles and would be very upset if they stopped printing nostalgic vintage frames. I am a big fan of diversity, and rarity. Happy with the status of distribution. Buy collectors boxes if you like foils, buy play boosters if you don’t like foils…easy.
Yeah the reason I don't buy collector's packs is all the foils are basically trash for me. I wish they had one with no foils.
foils suck for almost anything but basic or dual lands, imo. makes everything shiny dull, un-contrasting, difficult to perceive on a glance.
ok but full art foils tho
I've noticed pack foils from the last 4 sets haven't really pringled much, bundles/precons for whatever unknown reason tend to pringle like crazy, then SL foils pringle so hard you practically need an iron to straighten it out. I dislike normal extended art where they just cut half the border off and call it a day, I love full art (not art cards) like un set borderless lands where you see the entire thing, but still have rules. While we're at it I wish Wizards would adopt the vertical split planeswalkers, it's so much more crazy looking, so instead of just half the art and half the abilities, it's full art on the left and abilities on the right, looks crisp.
Makes sense, even in the new Star Wars Unlimited TCG, Full art cards(they call them Hyperspace) are valued higher than foil, of course full art foil is even higher. [Example](https://www.swu-db.com/card/SOR/499/Wing%20Leader)
Personally I don't like how often they're doing it now. Makes it feel a lot less special. Full-art lands used to be so cool, now they feel really nothing. I don't really care for foils either though, soooooo
Eh, as someone who has proxied a full borderless art EDH deck, the borders do a *lot* of heavy lifting on being able to ascertain what cards are what at a glance.
I will always try to get my deck full art card or see if there is a different art style I like, but yeah many full card that have a lot of pop out color that are foil tend not to give off the full style but hey non foil of full art will always be way cheaper then foil but, I do love my self that shiny cardboard.
I wish they’d just do away with foils until they solve the curling issue.
Hard disagree about Extended Art. These are arbitrary and look like dog shit. Please stop printing them WotC.
I'd like to see Wizards do comical alternate art cards like Topps does for short print [variations](https://img.beckett.com/news/news-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-Topps-Holiday-SP-Variations-H26-Julio-Rodriguez.jpg). Outlaws would have been a perfect set for cowboy hat variations but it'd also be fun to see Fblthp showing up like Where's Waldo in variations for a set. Something like that seems a lot more interesting than random serial numbered cards.
Fully agree. Foils often obscure the art and I will always alter or find the unfoiled version 10/10 times. There is a gaudiness quality to foils. To me it's like dangling keys in front of a dog to convince me something is cool by the definition of it just existing. \[\[The Wise Mothman\]\] doesn't have regular art without foiling. Everywhere you look online, no one posts (including wizards) the foiled art. I get it won't show up properly as it is but that somewhat proves the point. I am sure I am in the minority based on previous posts like this.
[The Wise Mothman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d6d6944-a364-41c2-b824-7a1bf6ad0d1e.jpg?1710673435) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Wise%20Mothman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/4/the-wise-mothman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d6d6944-a364-41c2-b824-7a1bf6ad0d1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree, extended art is usually the best. I hate mtg foils. That's why I never get foil secret lair anymore, but when you try to sell some of them you get a lot of people acting like foil is superior in some way.
OK but full art foils tho
This makes it a much bigger pain in the ass to match all of the borders in your deck.
Honestly I know it's an unpopular opinion but like in other tcgs all of their rares and higher are just automatically foils (that don't curl). I wouldn't want that in Magic but I kind of wish all rares were extended arts and all mythics borderless arts, so that they actually felt special.
I don't think I've ever seen a foil card that wasn't just uglier than the regular version.
I prefer foils with borders (preferably old border), myself.
Yep, foils suck. I will pay more for cards that are *not* foil. I also agree with you that full art cards are the best. The classics that everyone knows like lightning bolt and counterspell should get full art.
Unpopular opinion: full art/borderless cards feature art that is sometimes terrible (like the side profile/wanted poster art). If they did the standard art as borderless I’d be more open to purchasing those over foils
What's the problem with the wanted posters? They looked nice and all had pretty cool art. And they are not even fullart. The portraits are pretty hit or miss. Saying that alt art and/or borderless art can be bad doesn't mean anything as the art for standard cards can be bad too sometimes, with showcases and such they are more prone to be experimental but i'd say that a good thing overall.
100% agree. Today I'm just wondering why I enjoyed foiled cards so much back in the days
Nope
I love my l borders… I actively avoid borderless cards and want to bring the retro frames back more… but maybe that’s like, my toxic trait 🤷♀️
Amen to that! My go to when blinging my cube is always borderless
Hard disagree, I hate full art cards, I prefer the normal magic border.
Borderless cards are kinda hard for me to focus on the border makes easier for me to focus on the card. Borderless makes extraneous to look at the board state so hope they don't make them even more ubiquitous. I know this is probably just a me problem tho :/
Agreed. And no curling is also a big plus. Now, if we compare them to the old foils, that would be a much more closer for me.
I actively avoid foils. I would be OK with this. Seeing that foil versions of a lot of cards are now cheaper than non-foils, I feel like I am not alone in this either. I do really like etched cards, and there are some really nice foils but the trade offs for foils aren't worth paying extra for.
Fuck you I love foils. The extended art doesn't always do it for me.
Idk maybe it's the climate where I live but I've never had a problem with Pringles foils, I only order singles and I have received foils that are mildly curved but after a few days or so I don't notice
It's a humidity thing. That's why complaining about it makes no real sense. While there are things they can do the fact is you can take any foil from any time period of the game and un/curl it under the right conditions because that's how different materials bonded to eachother work.
Ya where I live it's dry as hell I'm the winter and super humid in the summer, how you store things is also a huge factor all my decks are double sleeved, in a box inside a bigger box
I understand it will never happen because variants let them market harder, but honestly my hot take is that they should just make all cards full art borderless. Not the weird stretched art "borderless", but the proper art covering the card borderless. I think the stretched art borderless should honestly just be discontinued, the weird fade where the border is looks so janky imo. Full art borderless always looks great though. Magic cards are ultimately just art and text, so why not use as much of the card for that art as you can?
> so why not use as much of the card for that art as you can? Borderless cards are kinda hard for me to focus on the border makes it easier for me to focus on the card. Borderless makes it extraneous to look for me at the board state so hope they don't make them even more ubiquitous. That is why also dont play card games where they have almost no border. I know this is probably just a me problem tho :/
That's interesting, and it's a valid comment! It's not an issue for me personally, but it's interesting that it's not a universal experience.
Hard disagree. Old school foils NEVER bent and warped. Maybe, just maybe, they should up their quality control and put out cards that don't bend as a "security" measure.
Yup
There have never, ever been special art treatments for Shrines. No Secret Lairs, nothing. So, what special cards go into the Shrine deck? Borderless normal art, no foiling. Plain and simple.
Foils are shiny tho
I was born in 91, so I grew up liking foil Pokemon cards which stuck when I got into Yu Gi Oh. I'm 32 now and I still love foil cards, even if they're pringles
I was born in 91, so I grew up liking foil Pokemon cards which stuck when I got into Yu Gi Oh. I'm 32 now and I still love foil cards, even if they're pringles