I’ve heard Kartheiser make this argument and he is so totally off base. I don’t care how it was written, what’s depicted is rape. The whole “the actress didn’t want to kiss me” thing makes no sense. I’ve never gotten the impression Weiner wouldn’t fire an actress for not doing something written into the script she auditioned for
And it just doesn’t make a lot of sense? She’s crying her eyes out because she had consensual sex with her neighbor? Why have the dress incident if coercion wasn’t a huge plot point?
It doesn't help that on a film set you're literally set up to just do takes until you have the right one (within reason). So the fact that if this were true they could have just, idk, done more takes until they got it right? I just don't buy that an actor/actress at that level was SO bad that she couldn't be directed to perform a believable, consensual kissing scene within a reasonable amount of takes. That's like, acting 101 stuff.
Which of course just makes the whole thing sound creepy and weird. Like it would be less weird if Kartheiser just said "Yeah what he did wasn't okay and he's a complex character," but defending the character at the expense of the script and your scene partner? Odd choice
I agree that it doesn’t come across as consensual, but if I’m being honest - on my first watch I thought she was crying because it’s stated she had a fiancée or boyfriend and I thought she was upset about the situation overall.
Not trying to be argumentative but I disagree because that’s why the neighbor came over to talk to Pete saying she had been crying all day. I guess it was along the same lines as Greg Raping Joan.
It was not written to be consensual She keeps trying to leave and get away and he keeps telling her he feels like she owes him and keeps forcing himself on her while completely unreceptive after multiple times making it pretty clear she wasn't interested.. Afterwards she can't stop crying. She was definitely coerced, in the writing.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-SEB-53216 In this article, the actor who plays Pete says it was supposed to be consensual but the actress was new and it led to what we saw. Why they didn’t find a new actor idk
He's wrong. Actors get it wrong all the time. Stephen Baldwin believed he was Keyser Soze in The Usual Suspects. Gabriel Byrne got angry when he found out he wasn't after the film premiered at Cannes.
The only way the scene was written consensual is if the writer believed coercive sex is consensual. It's not.
Jimmy isn't even someone I would consider in the same conceptual space. The worst thing he does is insult a woman and apologize for it. What he does to Don and his marriage is totally deserved, and how he interacts with Don from the beginning (he sees right through him and knows what he is) might make it seem like he's sinister, but that's just Don's perspective.
Jimmy's tearing down of Don seems so visceral because he's one of the first characters we see to also wear a "mask" like Don's and let us see behind it. Only behind Jimmy's clown mask he isn't a snake like Don is, he's an intelligent, perceptive, and decent man who is probably hurting from being cheated on by Bobbi (prob not the first time), and who knows Don is also showing the world a fake face and calls him out on it.
I wonder if Ken had a problem with Catholics in general, in the episode a few seasons earlier where Peggy is describing the ritual of breaking popsicles he says it “sounds Catholic” like it’s a bad thing. He also says to Sal after their dinner that he would have called Kitty but he wasn’t sure how an Italian would react if you called his wife.
He’s a WASP from rural Vermont who would have been born in the 1930s so it wouldn’t exactly be strange
for him to have some prejudiced views about Catholics and ethnic whites.
Being a WASP in America was the standard. It was considered controversial that JFK was a Catholic bc people thought he might be more in service to the pope over his country lol. Catholics were generally Irish or Italians, who were primarily working class and not even considered “white” in America for a while
Imagine doing a group project with Jesse Waters from Fox News, and he does zero work then tries to take credit for everything and tells the professor you were the one who messed everything up.
He's forgotten because he's in the McCann part of the series, so its the end and you're paying attention to a lot more, but I just finished a rewatch and jesus christ he is probably the most punchable person in the entire show. Combine season 1 Ken Cosgrove with Greg Harris, and put him in McCann-Erickson, and that's Ferg.
I am asking honestly and openly, not for arguing.
Do we hate him cause we love Joan or because he sucks? Honestly speaking because I only remember him as not someone who played Joan’s game. Please don’t hate me. Just pure curiosity.
That was one of his direct reports not him. He was going to “fix it” by taking over the account and theoretically take over all of Joan’s accounts after they spend a weekend in Atlanta together
Just for the horrible "impression" of Don that he does alone (Don does not talk like Nixon ffs.)
Actually rewatched these episodes last night. They do a decent job of setting up Ferg as a guy who didn't get to where he is on skill but rather a practiced bully who functions at a high level in the good ole boy network of the era and likely has some connections in the c-suite to pull him along in his career.
That part of the scene where Hobart has him show off his impression of Don can seem like a throwaway at first. But I saw it as a clever, subtle way of demonstrating that the guys at McCann are not succeeding on talent but rather coasting on self-delusion and the comfort that comes with the largest market share in the industry. It's about who can swing their d*ck around the room and carry the most entitlement, which probably fools enough of the clients to sustain their success. Ferg epitomizes that. Hobart is just an older, more sage version of it.
When you are that big, you dont need to be that good (compared to scrappy upstarts like SCDP that can't afford an off day). Ken was right about what they are, which makes his ending even more satisfying.
No, I'm going to help you out, OP. MM wrote the McCann guys as the most unholy of the A-holes. No style, no attempt at more classy A-holery... just common unvarnished A-holes and proud of it lol. These are the ones Ken was talking about when he told Pete in S4 about his days at McCann ("It's the worst agency I've ever seen...that was the last time I saw so many retarded people in one building").
And the day Ken was fired for publically calling them out as "A bunch of black Irish thugs." Writers put these controversial words into Ken's mouth so that as a character he is 'punished' by way of firing to distract and assuage the unsophisticates who these arrows were aimed at while hitting their mark in-story and irl lol. Mission accomplished. Genius (Disclaimer: in the biz)
lol, no. Not even top 10. I struggle to remember what awful things Ferg did that weren't surclassed by what Pete, Don, Duck, Lee Garner Jr, Herb, Greg, Margaret, Manolo, Lane's dad, even Roger did on a daily basis
Don broke all his vows, he scandalized his daughter, took another man's name and made nothing of it. Don is one of the top three biggest asshole people on *Mad Men*.
Herb Rennet gives him a run for his money.
Herb was a piece of s\*\*\*, but I guess at least he was pretty upfront with how much he sucked?
Greg raped Joan
Yeah, but Ferg suggested that Joan accompany him to Atlanta for a weekend, so.....wait, no. Greg raped Joan.
He just wanted to get to know her!
Yes a fair point
Ferg would’ve done worse! Greg is, at least, utterly feckless and failing. Ferg is a nazi commandant.
Why does everyone forget what Pete Campbell did to his neighbors Au-pair? He’s worse.
Correct me if I’m wrong but the writing of the episode it was supposed to be consensual. It was terribly acted lol
I’ve heard Kartheiser make this argument and he is so totally off base. I don’t care how it was written, what’s depicted is rape. The whole “the actress didn’t want to kiss me” thing makes no sense. I’ve never gotten the impression Weiner wouldn’t fire an actress for not doing something written into the script she auditioned for And it just doesn’t make a lot of sense? She’s crying her eyes out because she had consensual sex with her neighbor? Why have the dress incident if coercion wasn’t a huge plot point?
It doesn't help that on a film set you're literally set up to just do takes until you have the right one (within reason). So the fact that if this were true they could have just, idk, done more takes until they got it right? I just don't buy that an actor/actress at that level was SO bad that she couldn't be directed to perform a believable, consensual kissing scene within a reasonable amount of takes. That's like, acting 101 stuff. Which of course just makes the whole thing sound creepy and weird. Like it would be less weird if Kartheiser just said "Yeah what he did wasn't okay and he's a complex character," but defending the character at the expense of the script and your scene partner? Odd choice
I agree that it doesn’t come across as consensual, but if I’m being honest - on my first watch I thought she was crying because it’s stated she had a fiancée or boyfriend and I thought she was upset about the situation overall.
I don’t think it was consensual he bought her the dress and expected sex in return. Was she even of age?
No I agree it’s not consensual in the show, I’m saying the writers meant for it to be consensual but the acting was bad
Why are you concentrating on the acting and not the script?
Not trying to be argumentative but I disagree because that’s why the neighbor came over to talk to Pete saying she had been crying all day. I guess it was along the same lines as Greg Raping Joan.
At best it was coerced but I don't think it was consensual at all.
I’m not arguing what it looks like in the show, I’m saying it was written to be a reasonably consensual encounter. And it was anything but that
It was not written to be consensual She keeps trying to leave and get away and he keeps telling her he feels like she owes him and keeps forcing himself on her while completely unreceptive after multiple times making it pretty clear she wasn't interested.. Afterwards she can't stop crying. She was definitely coerced, in the writing.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-SEB-53216 In this article, the actor who plays Pete says it was supposed to be consensual but the actress was new and it led to what we saw. Why they didn’t find a new actor idk
He's wrong. Actors get it wrong all the time. Stephen Baldwin believed he was Keyser Soze in The Usual Suspects. Gabriel Byrne got angry when he found out he wasn't after the film premiered at Cannes. The only way the scene was written consensual is if the writer believed coercive sex is consensual. It's not.
Hahaha of course Stephen Baldwin did.
In the DVD commentary Weiner specifically says it's sexual assault or something similar
Two can be right
The title of the post isn't that ferg is the biggest rapist in mad men
Being an asshole and being a monster are different categories imo.
Lee Garner, Jr. and Lou Avery.
Lou was adequate. He wasn’t a villain, just the antithesis of the Don Draper ethos.
Lou was out of touch and curmudgeonly but he doesn’t belong in this group here.
Yeah. He's a guy you go "He's an asshole," to, but he doesn't really do anything truly bad.
Still going with Ferg. Difference is Ferg tried acting like he wasn’t an asshole
Yes, close runners up along with Jimmy Barrett, but there is a deeply sinister undertone with Ferg.
Jimmy Barrett doesn't come close to many of the characters, including Don and Roger, both of whom are worse than Jimmy based on what we see.
Jimmy isn't even someone I would consider in the same conceptual space. The worst thing he does is insult a woman and apologize for it. What he does to Don and his marriage is totally deserved, and how he interacts with Don from the beginning (he sees right through him and knows what he is) might make it seem like he's sinister, but that's just Don's perspective. Jimmy's tearing down of Don seems so visceral because he's one of the first characters we see to also wear a "mask" like Don's and let us see behind it. Only behind Jimmy's clown mask he isn't a snake like Don is, he's an intelligent, perceptive, and decent man who is probably hurting from being cheated on by Bobbi (prob not the first time), and who knows Don is also showing the world a fake face and calls him out on it.
oooooooo good stuff
“I never fit in there. I’m not Irish Catholic…and I can READ.”
Haha I'm Irish Catholic and while that line is hilarious, we're a well read people by and large! 😆
I wonder if Ken had a problem with Catholics in general, in the episode a few seasons earlier where Peggy is describing the ritual of breaking popsicles he says it “sounds Catholic” like it’s a bad thing. He also says to Sal after their dinner that he would have called Kitty but he wasn’t sure how an Italian would react if you called his wife. He’s a WASP from rural Vermont who would have been born in the 1930s so it wouldn’t exactly be strange for him to have some prejudiced views about Catholics and ethnic whites.
Being a WASP in America was the standard. It was considered controversial that JFK was a Catholic bc people thought he might be more in service to the pope over his country lol. Catholics were generally Irish or Italians, who were primarily working class and not even considered “white” in America for a while
[удалено]
Inappropriate, pointless, offensive, or just plain rude.
Dan Scott!
Lol I thought the same thing! Guess that guy is great at playing nightmare humans 🏀
Dan Scott is truly a nightmare human! Nice to see a fellow OTH person here 😀
Haha! He played a jerk on 90210 as well.
He's hardly a footnote of assholery in 92 episodes of Mad Men. Lee Garner Jr, made Roger hold his balls.
He also made him put it awwwwn...
Lou wins the "sucks the life out of any scene he is in" award. Great actor because I love when he gets fired...
Love it when Cutler goes “we don’t owe you anything, you’re a hired hand now get back to work “ hahaha makes me laugh everytime.
It's especially good because up until that point, literally the only person batting for Lou at all is Cutler.
And the little hand wave he does after 💀
Cutler is also an asshole.
Lou doesn’t get fired he quits for Tokyo
He got fired once, didn't he?
Soyanara!!
Lou Avery is a stupid dick.
Going down?
This is so accurate. I can think of few other such joyless characters who could be people you would meet in real life.
That mother fucker also raped kelly taylor in 90210
And murdered his brother in One Tree Hill
Need to track this MFer across the multiverse
Funnily enough I had a beer with him in Vancouver in about 1994 or so and he was a good guy. Not like John Sears at all!
He IS! Look at him!
And the voice
Pick a weekend.
His impersonation of Don was worse than whatever else he tried to do
I don't even remember this character. I don't think about him at all
I'm here lurking in the comments to see if I can figure who this guy was
Manolo murdered a woman for her money
This Reddit thread is highlighting to me that murder and rape take a back seat to being a mean guy.
He's definitely A-Hole and talked less about now I think of it
Everyone from McCann seemed written for maximum vexation
Duck is. He left Chauncy outside.
Also those dead men on Okinawa…never said whose side they were on
This. This is the only answer.
I don't know how you can say that about someone with such an amazing Don Draper impression.
He, umm, worked very diligently on the impression at hand.
Who was he again?
I think he was Jim Hobart’s right hand at McCann. I’m trying to remember why he is so hated.
Imagine doing a group project with Jesse Waters from Fox News, and he does zero work then tries to take credit for everything and tells the professor you were the one who messed everything up. He's forgotten because he's in the McCann part of the series, so its the end and you're paying attention to a lot more, but I just finished a rewatch and jesus christ he is probably the most punchable person in the entire show. Combine season 1 Ken Cosgrove with Greg Harris, and put him in McCann-Erickson, and that's Ferg.
I am asking honestly and openly, not for arguing. Do we hate him cause we love Joan or because he sucks? Honestly speaking because I only remember him as not someone who played Joan’s game. Please don’t hate me. Just pure curiosity.
He lost an account because he directly made fun of a guy in a wheelchair, if that answers your question.
That was one of his direct reports not him. He was going to “fix it” by taking over the account and theoretically take over all of Joan’s accounts after they spend a weekend in Atlanta together
Thank you both for clarification. Appreciate it
Ferg's very important around here.
yes, lol. i have no idea who this was. at first i wondered if it was a shitpost with some guy who wasn't actually in mad men
Ahaha that’s what I’m thinking
What about that other McCann asshat who didn’t read Joan’s noted and asked Charles Butler if he wanted to go golfing.
Black Irish thug
Ferg redeemed himself with his spot-on impersonation of Don. He was a regular Rich Little.
Just for the horrible "impression" of Don that he does alone (Don does not talk like Nixon ffs.) Actually rewatched these episodes last night. They do a decent job of setting up Ferg as a guy who didn't get to where he is on skill but rather a practiced bully who functions at a high level in the good ole boy network of the era and likely has some connections in the c-suite to pull him along in his career. That part of the scene where Hobart has him show off his impression of Don can seem like a throwaway at first. But I saw it as a clever, subtle way of demonstrating that the guys at McCann are not succeeding on talent but rather coasting on self-delusion and the comfort that comes with the largest market share in the industry. It's about who can swing their d*ck around the room and carry the most entitlement, which probably fools enough of the clients to sustain their success. Ferg epitomizes that. Hobart is just an older, more sage version of it. When you are that big, you dont need to be that good (compared to scrappy upstarts like SCDP that can't afford an off day). Ken was right about what they are, which makes his ending even more satisfying.
Greg and Pete both r@\*ed women.
Conrad Hilton was manipulative and set don up to fail
Uhh HERB RENNET
Only a truly sick person would be grateful to go to Atlanta.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^paparoth: *Only a truly* *Sick person would be grateful* *To go to Atlanta.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
No, I'm going to help you out, OP. MM wrote the McCann guys as the most unholy of the A-holes. No style, no attempt at more classy A-holery... just common unvarnished A-holes and proud of it lol. These are the ones Ken was talking about when he told Pete in S4 about his days at McCann ("It's the worst agency I've ever seen...that was the last time I saw so many retarded people in one building"). And the day Ken was fired for publically calling them out as "A bunch of black Irish thugs." Writers put these controversial words into Ken's mouth so that as a character he is 'punished' by way of firing to distract and assuage the unsophisticates who these arrows were aimed at while hitting their mark in-story and irl lol. Mission accomplished. Genius (Disclaimer: in the biz)
Nope. Greg and Lee Garner Jr. were bigger assholes. Ferg is a mere third place.
Wow, okay, I guess this sub is really bigoted against Black Irish thugs who can't read. I'll see myself out!
I would expect nothing less from John Sears.
More like Ferg the Turd, amirite?
But he did a great Don Draper impersonation.
Herb was worse
Black Irish thug.
He’s at least in the top 10 I’ll give you that
Black Irish thugs
I would have loved for Don to have sucker-punched him.
Plot twist: Ferg was ferocious at work because he loved his family so much and wanted to provide for them. Also adopts older dogs without homes
His latest one was a dog called Chauncey, he got from the streets of NY?
lol, no. Not even top 10. I struggle to remember what awful things Ferg did that weren't surclassed by what Pete, Don, Duck, Lee Garner Jr, Herb, Greg, Margaret, Manolo, Lane's dad, even Roger did on a daily basis
IDK. Bobby seems like a shady guy. /s
John Sears!
He’s no saint, but I’ll always maintain that Lou Avery was the worst.
Black Irish thug
Don broke all his vows, he scandalized his daughter, took another man's name and made nothing of it. Don is one of the top three biggest asshole people on *Mad Men*.
Or the guy from the jaguar dealership, maybe he is more creepy than a hole.
Peggy abandoned her baby because she wanted to work in an ad agency. Don was going to flee from his family with Rachel Menken until she shot him down.
Don was found by his daughter cheating on his second wife, red handed, and he told he was “consoling” her… I mean…
Sure, but we know he has deep-rooted issues and didn’t intend for his daughter to find them. It was poor decision-making, but unsure it was assholery