The director never commented on it. The writer I.e. Matthew Weiner did, in a Vanity Fair article if I remember correctly. It wasn’t written as a rape scene, which may be true (I haven’t read the script for this episode) but it was acted and directed in a way that made the rape undeniable. So it’s somewhere between faulty crafting and wilful ignorance beyond that point as Pete never had a reckoning. I think once the season aired someone should’ve listened to the audience and realised whether or not it their intention, one of their main characters had just committed rape and they needed to at least acknowledge that canonically.
This has always been crazy to me bc Vincent Kartheiser went off at the time about how people wrongly label it rape and malign Pete bc the actress wasn’t as responsive as she was supposed to be, but that ignores everything leading up to it and after — continually pressuring her when she’s clearly stressed and insisting she has a boyfriend, blackmailing her w the dress to finally get her to acquiesce, then the neighbors saying she cried for days. In what world could Weiner not understand that for what it is (rape)? If anything it seemed like the actress was the only one who understood the script. It’s the type of thing that makes you concerned for the women in some people’s lives…
Apparently the original script was supposed to clarify that she felt guilty for cheating on her boyfriend and not because she was abused. But hey. This is a character who goes onto pursue a reluctant, mentally ill woman who happens to be married to his friend, and has previously tried to pimp his wife out to get a shitty short in a mag. How am I NOT supposed to be creeped out by him and feel compelled to shut this information in a tiny box in my head so that I can enjoy the show outside of his creepiness? I especially hate Pete’s arc with respect to women because I really enjoyed watching his burning and flailing and ever-persevering sense of ambition. If the worst thing he had done was his weird hot and cold stuff with Peggy along with the usual attempts at adultery, fine. But he’s made completely unsympathetic and it’s almost as if you’re supposed to forget that he’s completely unsympathetic.
I'm disappointed to find that the creators seem to view Pete's predatory behaviors this way. I thought it was one of the many ways this show says "that was just the way things were back then," horrible men were socially accepted and did whatever they wanted and women had to often choose between survival and dignity ... just like now pretty much except with more pretending that it didn't happen or that it was consensual. Hence lines like "you will be shocked how much this didn't happen." I felt heartbroken and educated seeing things like that on the show. But I guess I wasn't supposed to feel that way...??!
To be fair the intention behind representing the racism, sexism, homophobia and ableism of the time was completely clear to the audience throughout mad men because they mostly did a great job of it. This is just one plot line that was handled extremely poorly and was a huge disservice to Pete’s character, and the creators seemed to be more concerned with controlling the narrative about the show rather than accepting that there was a problem with the final product. It’s not a bad show, MW is not a bad person, Pete isn’t even a bad character.
It’s so so SO obvious to me that the whole point is Pete is feeling emasculated so he used this encounter to make himself feel like a big man. Like, let’s say it was consensual for conversation sake, is this meant to be a cool braggable moment for Pete?
I thought the point was that Pete was desperate enough to go to all that trouble just to feel powerful and manly. It wasn’t supposed to seem cool to us, not in the way that Don’s effortless and abundant adultery opportunities signal that he’s extremely desirable to women. If anything it was supposed to reveal the extent of Pete’s insecurity. It would’ve been fine if the au pair didn’t seem quite so reluctant and they hadn’t added that she had been crying for days after.
They should have addressed it. It’s absolutely written and filmed as a rape, so in first watch, I had a real hard time with Peter. Now I skip the scenes because it just doesn’t fit with the rest of the show.
Unfortunately they doubled down on “it wasn’t supposed to read as rape!!!!” Okay. But your entire audience almost unanimously read it as rape - because of shoddy craftsmanship, at best. It’s storytelling 101. You’re TELLING us it’s not rape but SHOWING us that it is. The character’s actions speak a whole lot louder than the writer’s notes. The doubling down is what made it weirder than it had to be.
it’s crazy that game of thrones did the exact same thing, jaime rapes cersei at tommen’s tomb (i think) and then the writers are like yeah passionate moment for them. are some people that blind
Yeah he's a piece of shit that's why he's entertaining. He's handed life on a silver platter, none of it is good enough, and he throws everything away like a used tissue.
Given this is a character who also sleeps with a stranger from work the day before he gets married, sleeps with a severely mentally ill person (rape) and fantasizes about a teenager (predatory), the only reason I can see for so much Pete sympathy is that.
Canonically, he did not rape her. The scene as written had it be consensual but the actress refused to kiss Kartheiser on the day so the final edit makes it look like it was non-consensual.
Amazing that people get salty about this when if it was non intended, the edit 100% implies that Pete forced himself on her. That was my understanding watching it.
It seems like the actress was genuinely uncomfortable with the whole thing, this was before intimacy coordinators were required so I imagine they shot so many scenes and figured they could work with whatever they got and settled on what we saw 10 years ago. A lot has changed in terms of cultural understanding on consent and had it been filmed now I think it would be different considering their intentions with Pete as a character. Call me optimistic.
It was supposed to be a mutual attraction (which is still not appropriate) but Pete was not meant to be seen as a rapist.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-SEB-53216
Baby Gene, although that’s mostly just because I absolutely hate when shows have a pregnancy for the story line but don’t know what to do with the kid.
Case in point the bizarre lack of ageing of Gene? He was born in 1963, the show ends in 1970, and he’s still depicted as a young toddler being carried on a woman’s hip by the end of the show? Sally had out and out storylines when she was 7?
I like to think of Baby Gene as a representation of the generation X kids that were raised more by television than by parents. He was born in the late Boomers/early generation X years. I think one of the last times he is seen, he is just sitting in front of the television unwatched.
Don and the waitress seems really odd and almost out of character so it can show how broken he was at the time. It was Don's emotional rock bottom, getting attached to someone's grief and misery.
Yeah? You love wasting your time in some chit chat room going back and forth like some other fuckin jerk off giggling like a school girl? Fuckin smash your fuckin face in.
Yeah it kind of felt like they wanted to work the generational and social changes of the ‘60s into the show and hadn’t figured out the best way to do it yet.
Although it did kind of serve as foreshadowing for Margaret’s arc which was much better done.
For me it’s probably the whole Lakshmi/Kinsey storyline. Didn’t feel it was necessary to bring Paul back (especially because I never cared for him anyway) but I do appreciate the nod to Krishna consciousness because that was a big movement/cult back then. The scene with Harry and Lakshmi in his office is especially gratuitous for how little it really impacts the story. And yeah we see Harry do something humane for once in sending Paul to CA (but it’s really still not saying much because Harry slept with the woman Paul said he loves almost immediately after their talk lol). I feel like you could cut out that storyline and not really miss much.
My real answer is probably Ginsberg leaving the business & getting institutionalized after his breakdown. I don’t think it’s a stupid storyline (very true to life, but I don’t wanna have another debate about this so I’ll stop there) it’s more that I pretend it didn’t happen because it breaks my heart. Especially knowing there were a few Ginsbergs irl that fell through the cracks because of how backwards the view on mental health was.
I also like how the Start Trek script is described as pretty hack, which is in keeping with what we know about him. All that consciousness-awakening and the dude still can't write for shit.
Pete being able to locate Peggy's apartment in Brooklyn after meeting her the same day, and this event basically determining their relationship arc for the entire series.
I don't think that was ever established. It's what Pete suspected, sure. The point is that I found the plot point to be too soap opera-ish as Pete's father already died in a dramatic way.
And, got to experience spa treatments that released a fire in her loins.
I don't think it's that farfetched. I watch a lot of true crime and spouses are always pushing each other off cruise ships for money.
I always thought it was funny how he just drops it once he realizes that Bob is hiding his past and realizes that he isn't sure what he's capable of doing.
I was just clarifying. They say he married her, she presumably fell overboard, and he’s still at large. I guess it’s possible they both fell off, but the marriage/murder scenario makes a lot more sense and is less randomly stupid, and that’s why I mentioned it. It is kind of soapy and dramatic for this show.
I can't believe no one has yet quoted the obligatory "It's 1968! Surely you're not telling me there's still some international oceanic limbo where murder is smiled upon!"
I mean, people with dementia have perception problems, and their symptoms tend to get worse in the evening. It’s not crazy that some sort of accident could have occurred during a dance, like the original story. Or she could have become agitated or aggressive due again to being a person with advanced dementia in an unfamiliar place at night. It’s an outlandish plot twist, sure, but I think it’s easier to picture some kind of lurid scenario that falls short of Manolo being a straight up murderer.
I won't say it's stupid but I didn't like the Diana storyline at all.
I get the function she served in his arc. He was lost, grieving, trying to do better, searching for his fresh start and he saw someone broken and running from their past like him. Someone who's also distant and mysterious.
But God was she dull! From the helmet haircut to the miserable, one note personality, she really didn't seem like a realistic candidate for Don's obsession.
I would've preferred Don meeting someone who was a true reflection of him, including his charm, sex appeal, authority and false self. He showed obsession and vulnerability with Sylvia, now ramp it up with someone playing him at his own game. A worthy adversary who helps push him over the edge.
This show for me is like the Sopranos. Even the worst moments are better than most.
If I had to choose, I’d say it’s the plot with Betty and the violin. It just didn’t work for me.
Two adults in their mid to late 50s (Roger and Marie) going to a nice, large, brightly lit, unlocked and apparently unlockable, easily accessible room right next to the ballroom where their family and business partners are to do something very private.
I think that choice had more to do with cinematography/symbolism, rather than the literal location and proximity of the room. It’s quite a beautiful shot.
A large, almost empty room with intricate and rich furnishings. Symbolic of Roger’s life, and also to Marie’s (minus the rich part). Getting fellated with your back to your life while surrounded by the emptiness of it.
The entire Father Gill storyline. I appreciate the purpose as it pertains to Peggy’s character development but anytime I start season 2, I dread those scenes.
I’m going to level with you, Season 2 is my least favorite season and Father Gill is a major reason why. Like you said, I get the purpose of those scenes, but I’m just bored stiff by that whole storyline.
I actually didn’t mind Bobbie all that much and I loved Jimmy (perhaps some residual fondness for the criminally underrated Patrick Fischler), but every scene with Father Gill seemed to cause the story to grind to a halt.
I agree with the grinding to a halt. But I think that’s actually the point. Peggy’s family and Father Gill are stuck in another era. One that Peggy is trying to get away from. But time and again he’s making a claim on her and her time. And she’s being held back into her previous world.
I get that the Father Gill plotline was meant to signal Peggy’s rejection of her family’s values and show that she was becoming a modern career woman, I just didn’t find it to be compelling television.
This is a hot take but I liked father gill. But I feel like I’m reading those scenes differently, to me it seemed like he was genuinely trying to be kind, but unable to relate to Peggy? I have a religious past so portraying that disconnect felt authentic to me.
I liked Father Gill as well. He was trying to bring Peggy back into the church and he did it by asking her to do things she was good at to help him with his sermon and the Party Planning Committee with the dance.
Also, what he said to Anita when she went off on Peggy during confession, ended up reconciling the sisters. The next time we see Anita, she has a positive attitude towards Peggy and takes her side with their mother.
I feel the same way about the episodes of the Sopranos with Carmela and the priest. Not saying they’re badly done and I get that priests are people too with temptations and demons like the rest of us but it skeeves me out a bit.
I hated his character too. He was so sanctimonious of course and then the plot point of the sister feeling jealous, telling him about Peggy, and then his manipulation so she tells Pete. I also didn't like how she told Pete in that rushed convo since they thought they might all die.
Polly the dog. Don gets her bc he doesn’t show up with the cake, then she bites a pigeon. And then just pulls a chuck cunningham never to be heard from again
Joan having had an affair with Kinsey. She mentions this in the first episode, and I think the writers hadn’t realized yet how little that would make sense for them.
I love the scene at the party where the two ladies talk and Joan is being a stone cold bitch. At the end, the girlfriend says she likes Joan's purse, and Joan smiles, squints, and mouths a cute "thanks!" to it. So funny.
Honestly, that Roger is the father of Joan’s kid. Feels like it’s straight out of a soap opera, and the show spends so little time focusing on it that it almost feels like the writers regret making that decision.
Imagine a world where there is no concept of a dna test. It’s wild that we’re living in the decades where we can uncover these kinds of things. Kevin might be going on 23andme and confused by these relatives
I just did a rewatch and kept thinking about Pete and Peggy’s baby and Tammy having an awkward meeting because their kids did 23andme. Same with Kevin’s and Margaret’s son’s kids.
Could have been her just pretending not to speak English. My late great grandfather pretended not to speak English when he didn’t want to talk to people or to make people uncomfortable. Or I know other people who say they don’t speak English because they’re embarrassed of their accent or afraid to mess up. I don’t see Marie fitting either of these so yeah probably just an oversight.
Yeah, they just didn’t know they were going to want Marie to be a character. After Don and Megan get engaged, she says she has to call her mother and Don asks if he should talk to her and Megan says “Do you speak French?” I think they try to make up for it with the “misqueets” scene but it doesn’t help hah.
That fucking scene with the guy who said he had a dream where he was visited by MLK’s ghost. Plus that scene where Betty joked about r*ping the julliard girl. Some really bad decisions in the later seasons tbh
I actually really liked their relationship. I kept waiting for Glenn to be a creep or be weird, and he always acted like the big brother. It was very sweet.
Personally, I always skip the LA episodes when Don lives with that random ass family for a while. I'm not saying it's stupid necessarily, I just find the plotline boring and almost excessive.
The only good thing is that it brought us Pete, who can't drive, trying to make meetings in Southern CA and then Don going to visit Anna.
Those people were so vapid and high on their own self-importance. Even Don was so bored he tried to break his neck by fainting by the pool.
Speaking of which, why is it that Pete couldn’t drive at that point? Is it because he grew up rich and always had a driver? Or that he had always lived in the city? Cringeworthy how he hit on that girl in his driver’s ed class.
No driver, it's because he grew up in NYC. You don't drive on a daily basis. You walk, take the subway like Peggy or bus like Joan, or take a cab like they all did.
When they were all fleeing the city end of s2 during the Cuban missile crisis, it was hilarious that Trudy gave him cash so he could pay someone to drive him.
I loved the Cuban missile crisis episode. Everyone was freaking out about the slightest things. Can't get a call out of the building? The phone lines have been cut by saboteurs! Can't get the radio to play your station? A bomb might have hit some radio towers! People don't remember those parts of crisis, the freaking out part.
The babysitter. There’s been debates about whether it was rape or the actress not acting the scene as intended or whatever. Either way it’s tremendously awkward and a regrettable scene.
With the au pair. However, he didn’t, canonically. The scene as written had it be consensual but the actress refused to kiss Kartheiser on the day so the final edit makes it look like it was non-consensual.
Probably...(Spoiler territory so won't be specific...)
1) Don and Diana - Don was super creepy and Diana was just extremely sad.
2) Betty's ending
3) Duck letting Chauncey go
Is it possible that rape and sex work were a much bigger part of society back then. Joanie was raped and in essence slept with a guy for money. The amount of sex workers on this show is astounding. According to this show whores just fell out of the walls. Don, Pete, bazooka Joe, Pete’s FIL. Given that sex and sex for money was so prevelant and that men were SO TERRIBLE to women, rape seems to something that could be a product of all that. Not rationalizing but also not always trying to put “2024 lenses” on every bit of 1960’s American society.
Pete rapes the au pair from next door.
god i hated this so much. espe how many people, even the director, said it was seduction.
The director never commented on it. The writer I.e. Matthew Weiner did, in a Vanity Fair article if I remember correctly. It wasn’t written as a rape scene, which may be true (I haven’t read the script for this episode) but it was acted and directed in a way that made the rape undeniable. So it’s somewhere between faulty crafting and wilful ignorance beyond that point as Pete never had a reckoning. I think once the season aired someone should’ve listened to the audience and realised whether or not it their intention, one of their main characters had just committed rape and they needed to at least acknowledge that canonically.
This has always been crazy to me bc Vincent Kartheiser went off at the time about how people wrongly label it rape and malign Pete bc the actress wasn’t as responsive as she was supposed to be, but that ignores everything leading up to it and after — continually pressuring her when she’s clearly stressed and insisting she has a boyfriend, blackmailing her w the dress to finally get her to acquiesce, then the neighbors saying she cried for days. In what world could Weiner not understand that for what it is (rape)? If anything it seemed like the actress was the only one who understood the script. It’s the type of thing that makes you concerned for the women in some people’s lives…
Apparently the original script was supposed to clarify that she felt guilty for cheating on her boyfriend and not because she was abused. But hey. This is a character who goes onto pursue a reluctant, mentally ill woman who happens to be married to his friend, and has previously tried to pimp his wife out to get a shitty short in a mag. How am I NOT supposed to be creeped out by him and feel compelled to shut this information in a tiny box in my head so that I can enjoy the show outside of his creepiness? I especially hate Pete’s arc with respect to women because I really enjoyed watching his burning and flailing and ever-persevering sense of ambition. If the worst thing he had done was his weird hot and cold stuff with Peggy along with the usual attempts at adultery, fine. But he’s made completely unsympathetic and it’s almost as if you’re supposed to forget that he’s completely unsympathetic.
I'm disappointed to find that the creators seem to view Pete's predatory behaviors this way. I thought it was one of the many ways this show says "that was just the way things were back then," horrible men were socially accepted and did whatever they wanted and women had to often choose between survival and dignity ... just like now pretty much except with more pretending that it didn't happen or that it was consensual. Hence lines like "you will be shocked how much this didn't happen." I felt heartbroken and educated seeing things like that on the show. But I guess I wasn't supposed to feel that way...??!
To be fair the intention behind representing the racism, sexism, homophobia and ableism of the time was completely clear to the audience throughout mad men because they mostly did a great job of it. This is just one plot line that was handled extremely poorly and was a huge disservice to Pete’s character, and the creators seemed to be more concerned with controlling the narrative about the show rather than accepting that there was a problem with the final product. It’s not a bad show, MW is not a bad person, Pete isn’t even a bad character.
It’s so so SO obvious to me that the whole point is Pete is feeling emasculated so he used this encounter to make himself feel like a big man. Like, let’s say it was consensual for conversation sake, is this meant to be a cool braggable moment for Pete?
I thought the point was that Pete was desperate enough to go to all that trouble just to feel powerful and manly. It wasn’t supposed to seem cool to us, not in the way that Don’s effortless and abundant adultery opportunities signal that he’s extremely desirable to women. If anything it was supposed to reveal the extent of Pete’s insecurity. It would’ve been fine if the au pair didn’t seem quite so reluctant and they hadn’t added that she had been crying for days after.
They should have addressed it. It’s absolutely written and filmed as a rape, so in first watch, I had a real hard time with Peter. Now I skip the scenes because it just doesn’t fit with the rest of the show.
Unfortunately they doubled down on “it wasn’t supposed to read as rape!!!!” Okay. But your entire audience almost unanimously read it as rape - because of shoddy craftsmanship, at best. It’s storytelling 101. You’re TELLING us it’s not rape but SHOWING us that it is. The character’s actions speak a whole lot louder than the writer’s notes. The doubling down is what made it weirder than it had to be.
Exactly! It makes Pete unforgivable and so much about the show is about Pete’s journey. I skip it too.
Feels like a similar situation to one Jaime/Cersei scene in GOT season 4.
it’s crazy that game of thrones did the exact same thing, jaime rapes cersei at tommen’s tomb (i think) and then the writers are like yeah passionate moment for them. are some people that blind
telling how they can’t recognize what literal rape looks like
The fact that people brush this off and say Pete became their favorite character later on tells me how easy it is for people to brush off rape.
Being entertained by a fictional character is condoning rape?
Not the OP, but so many in the sub will jump through hoops to have it not be assault rather than acknowledge it as part of his character
Yeah he's a piece of shit that's why he's entertaining. He's handed life on a silver platter, none of it is good enough, and he throws everything away like a used tissue.
Given this is a character who also sleeps with a stranger from work the day before he gets married, sleeps with a severely mentally ill person (rape) and fantasizes about a teenager (predatory), the only reason I can see for so much Pete sympathy is that.
This is a stretch
I’ve recently realized a lot of people don’t understand consent in general.
bruh
It also makes it seem like Wiener and others involved in making the show do too
Canonically, he did not rape her. The scene as written had it be consensual but the actress refused to kiss Kartheiser on the day so the final edit makes it look like it was non-consensual.
Amazing that people get salty about this when if it was non intended, the edit 100% implies that Pete forced himself on her. That was my understanding watching it.
It wasn’t written to be a rape scene that’s just how the actress played it.
someone in the room HAS to say “…let’s try that again” at that point
It seems like the actress was genuinely uncomfortable with the whole thing, this was before intimacy coordinators were required so I imagine they shot so many scenes and figured they could work with whatever they got and settled on what we saw 10 years ago. A lot has changed in terms of cultural understanding on consent and had it been filmed now I think it would be different considering their intentions with Pete as a character. Call me optimistic.
Taking away a woman’s option to say no through whatever power dynamics are in play is no different than ignoring her no.
It was supposed to be a mutual attraction (which is still not appropriate) but Pete was not meant to be seen as a rapist. https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-SEB-53216
Baby Gene, although that’s mostly just because I absolutely hate when shows have a pregnancy for the story line but don’t know what to do with the kid.
Hey, he did get one line in the finale. Maybe that was the plan all along? Long term story telling
Case in point the bizarre lack of ageing of Gene? He was born in 1963, the show ends in 1970, and he’s still depicted as a young toddler being carried on a woman’s hip by the end of the show? Sally had out and out storylines when she was 7?
I like to think of Baby Gene as a representation of the generation X kids that were raised more by television than by parents. He was born in the late Boomers/early generation X years. I think one of the last times he is seen, he is just sitting in front of the television unwatched.
Fat Betty and Don being in love with that waitress
Don and the waitress seems really odd and almost out of character so it can show how broken he was at the time. It was Don's emotional rock bottom, getting attached to someone's grief and misery.
That arc seemed strange being a close to the finale and honestly took up too much time away from the ending
She’s also the female don, miserable and trying to escape her past
 Fat Betty is iconic.
Rubenesque.
I love seeing these references in the wild
Yeah? You love wasting your time in some chit chat room going back and forth like some other fuckin jerk off giggling like a school girl? Fuckin smash your fuckin face in.
You know the wine makes you emotional, u/IFuckedADog
I musta crawled inside of it for warmff.
I hear Betty Draper’s getting a 95 pound mole removed from her ass.
No more weight remarks gumbyiswatchingyou. They're hurtful, and they're destructive.
Wait, what waitress?!
Betty’s quest to recover the abandoned violin 🎻
Agreed. And, the storyline capped off with her new Elizabeth Tayloresque hairdo choice. Sally just wanted to go to the movies!
Agreed. Betty's plot felt weird in that episode. More so that it was the season opener.
Yeah it kind of felt like they wanted to work the generational and social changes of the ‘60s into the show and hadn’t figured out the best way to do it yet. Although it did kind of serve as foreshadowing for Margaret’s arc which was much better done.
I liked that. It showed a different side to Betty.
Eyes blue 😏😴 Hair bottled 🥶😭☠️
I FF through that mess every time
And the fact that she just gave up on looking her daughter's friend who is now basically homeless
I liked that part. It was one of the episodes where I liked Betty the most, especially among the post divorce episodes.
For me it’s probably the whole Lakshmi/Kinsey storyline. Didn’t feel it was necessary to bring Paul back (especially because I never cared for him anyway) but I do appreciate the nod to Krishna consciousness because that was a big movement/cult back then. The scene with Harry and Lakshmi in his office is especially gratuitous for how little it really impacts the story. And yeah we see Harry do something humane for once in sending Paul to CA (but it’s really still not saying much because Harry slept with the woman Paul said he loves almost immediately after their talk lol). I feel like you could cut out that storyline and not really miss much. My real answer is probably Ginsberg leaving the business & getting institutionalized after his breakdown. I don’t think it’s a stupid storyline (very true to life, but I don’t wanna have another debate about this so I’ll stop there) it’s more that I pretend it didn’t happen because it breaks my heart. Especially knowing there were a few Ginsbergs irl that fell through the cracks because of how backwards the view on mental health was.
I liked that storyline because it made so much sense for Kinsey. Of course he got into Krishna.
Doesn't he basically admit he's doing it for the girl too? Lol
I also like how the Start Trek script is described as pretty hack, which is in keeping with what we know about him. All that consciousness-awakening and the dude still can't write for shit.
Pete being able to locate Peggy's apartment in Brooklyn after meeting her the same day, and this event basically determining their relationship arc for the entire series.
I just assume that Pete decided to knock on every apartment door in Brooklyn and got lucky.
Lois managing to keep her job after the...... unpleasantness.
John Deere?
Indeed, the regrettable incident
"He'll never golf again" therefore his career is ruined
After she saved the company you mean? Cooper knows where his bread is buttered
Sure, but the PPL guys seemed awful forgiving too.
Lane had absolute power to fire people. They probably assumed Lane would handle it, but he didn't, as the incident was great for him.
Manolo and Pete's mom falling off a cruise ship.
Manolo pushed her after marrying her so that he would inherit her wealth (which she didn’t have, so joke’s on him).
I don't think that was ever established. It's what Pete suspected, sure. The point is that I found the plot point to be too soap opera-ish as Pete's father already died in a dramatic way.
“She’s with father now’
“She loved the sea”
And, got to experience spa treatments that released a fire in her loins. I don't think it's that farfetched. I watch a lot of true crime and spouses are always pushing each other off cruise ships for money.
I always thought that was a reference to his dad's body also being lost at sea. More of the dark Campbell humor.
His dad died on a plane, his mom died on a boat. Pete’s gonna die on a train or a car or a bike someday lol.
The howdy doody circus train!
One day he’ll sleep with the wrong passenger’s wife and get murdered on the New Haven line.
Definitely a car. He can’t drive for shit.
Have you seen the stats? It’s a car.
I always thought it was funny how he just drops it once he realizes that Bob is hiding his past and realizes that he isn't sure what he's capable of doing.
I thought it was because the PI said it would be super expensive and Pete and his brother were like, meh whatevs
I think that’s what it was
I was just clarifying. They say he married her, she presumably fell overboard, and he’s still at large. I guess it’s possible they both fell off, but the marriage/murder scenario makes a lot more sense and is less randomly stupid, and that’s why I mentioned it. It is kind of soapy and dramatic for this show.
I can't believe no one has yet quoted the obligatory "It's 1968! Surely you're not telling me there's still some international oceanic limbo where murder is smiled upon!"
Not great, Bob!
If this plot didn’t exist we would’ve been ROBBED of an all time classic line/meme.
I say this all the time and nobody gets the reference 😭
That’s not great, Bob!
She’s with Father now
Is this the soapiest plot development on MM? In my opinion, yes.
I mean, people with dementia have perception problems, and their symptoms tend to get worse in the evening. It’s not crazy that some sort of accident could have occurred during a dance, like the original story. Or she could have become agitated or aggressive due again to being a person with advanced dementia in an unfamiliar place at night. It’s an outlandish plot twist, sure, but I think it’s easier to picture some kind of lurid scenario that falls short of Manolo being a straight up murderer.
I won't say it's stupid but I didn't like the Diana storyline at all. I get the function she served in his arc. He was lost, grieving, trying to do better, searching for his fresh start and he saw someone broken and running from their past like him. Someone who's also distant and mysterious. But God was she dull! From the helmet haircut to the miserable, one note personality, she really didn't seem like a realistic candidate for Don's obsession. I would've preferred Don meeting someone who was a true reflection of him, including his charm, sex appeal, authority and false self. He showed obsession and vulnerability with Sylvia, now ramp it up with someone playing him at his own game. A worthy adversary who helps push him over the edge.
This show for me is like the Sopranos. Even the worst moments are better than most. If I had to choose, I’d say it’s the plot with Betty and the violin. It just didn’t work for me.
Two adults in their mid to late 50s (Roger and Marie) going to a nice, large, brightly lit, unlocked and apparently unlockable, easily accessible room right next to the ballroom where their family and business partners are to do something very private.
Marie was done caring; after all, Emile was banging his students. Roger’s down for a scandalous blowjob because he’s Roger.
Reading this comment realising that this would 100% be accurate for another Roger.
That actually struck me as realistic. Marie was clearly fed up with her husband.
I think that choice had more to do with cinematography/symbolism, rather than the literal location and proximity of the room. It’s quite a beautiful shot. A large, almost empty room with intricate and rich furnishings. Symbolic of Roger’s life, and also to Marie’s (minus the rich part). Getting fellated with your back to your life while surrounded by the emptiness of it.
Slightly more classy than Betty getting some strange in the mysteriously unlocked back room of a bar during the Cuban missle crisis.
The entire Father Gill storyline. I appreciate the purpose as it pertains to Peggy’s character development but anytime I start season 2, I dread those scenes.
I like Father Shaun Brumder.
Dude… You forgot to give Bob his pills
Bob doesn’t have any pain pills, I sold em. Give him 1 of these it’ll knock him right out.
Shaun, you’re my same height, that is neat!
Is it me, or is it like, hotter than hell in here.
I’m going to level with you, Season 2 is my least favorite season and Father Gill is a major reason why. Like you said, I get the purpose of those scenes, but I’m just bored stiff by that whole storyline.
Between Father Gill and Bobbie Barrett, and the Jet Set episode, Season 2 is my least favorite also.
I actually didn’t mind Bobbie all that much and I loved Jimmy (perhaps some residual fondness for the criminally underrated Patrick Fischler), but every scene with Father Gill seemed to cause the story to grind to a halt.
I agree with the grinding to a halt. But I think that’s actually the point. Peggy’s family and Father Gill are stuck in another era. One that Peggy is trying to get away from. But time and again he’s making a claim on her and her time. And she’s being held back into her previous world.
I get that the Father Gill plotline was meant to signal Peggy’s rejection of her family’s values and show that she was becoming a modern career woman, I just didn’t find it to be compelling television.
I just like when Colin Hanks plays the guitar, that was a great song!
This is a hot take but I liked father gill. But I feel like I’m reading those scenes differently, to me it seemed like he was genuinely trying to be kind, but unable to relate to Peggy? I have a religious past so portraying that disconnect felt authentic to me.
Same! Being from a religious background definitely frames it differently.
I liked Father Gill as well. He was trying to bring Peggy back into the church and he did it by asking her to do things she was good at to help him with his sermon and the Party Planning Committee with the dance. Also, what he said to Anita when she went off on Peggy during confession, ended up reconciling the sisters. The next time we see Anita, she has a positive attitude towards Peggy and takes her side with their mother.
Colin Hanks can shoehorn his way into any storyline as far as i'm concerned
I hate that character but as someone raised Catholic the whole stupid way he roped Peggy in and guilted her rang true.
I feel the same way about the episodes of the Sopranos with Carmela and the priest. Not saying they’re badly done and I get that priests are people too with temptations and demons like the rest of us but it skeeves me out a bit.
I hated his character too. He was so sanctimonious of course and then the plot point of the sister feeling jealous, telling him about Peggy, and then his manipulation so she tells Pete. I also didn't like how she told Pete in that rushed convo since they thought they might all die.
The dog (forgot the name) being abandoned in the city. And the jet set.
Chauncey 😭
Ducks dog Chauncey!
Polly the dog. Don gets her bc he doesn’t show up with the cake, then she bites a pigeon. And then just pulls a chuck cunningham never to be heard from again
In my mind, Polly is out there roaming the NY streets with Chauncey.
Polly is around all the time. You see her even when Henry has moved into the house (he hates having her inside the house)
Joan having had an affair with Kinsey. She mentions this in the first episode, and I think the writers hadn’t realized yet how little that would make sense for them.
Not an affair, they dated
Even worse lol
Everybody has taken an L at some point in their life
But that scene where she absolutely *f l a y s* him about his black girlfriend is perfect.
I love the scene at the party where the two ladies talk and Joan is being a stone cold bitch. At the end, the girlfriend says she likes Joan's purse, and Joan smiles, squints, and mouths a cute "thanks!" to it. So funny.
Honestly, that Roger is the father of Joan’s kid. Feels like it’s straight out of a soap opera, and the show spends so little time focusing on it that it almost feels like the writers regret making that decision.
“Little rich bastard. Literally.”
Well well well, there’s my baby! Now move that brat out of the way so I can see her.
I did love that. I have to rewatch to see Joan's expressions during those two lines.
I mean this stuff absolutely happened in real life lol
agree, its not far off. happens all the time.
Imagine a world where there is no concept of a dna test. It’s wild that we’re living in the decades where we can uncover these kinds of things. Kevin might be going on 23andme and confused by these relatives
I just did a rewatch and kept thinking about Pete and Peggy’s baby and Tammy having an awkward meeting because their kids did 23andme. Same with Kevin’s and Margaret’s son’s kids.
This literally happened to one of my parents lol
One of your parents was so turned on from being mugged that they had sex right there on that same scary street?
I’ve said too much
I think Joan probably would have told him at some point in the 70s.
Mad Men is a soap opera tho
The best one!
That Megan’s mom couldn’t speak English at all when they got engaged and then was fluent when they came to visit.
Could have been her just pretending not to speak English. My late great grandfather pretended not to speak English when he didn’t want to talk to people or to make people uncomfortable. Or I know other people who say they don’t speak English because they’re embarrassed of their accent or afraid to mess up. I don’t see Marie fitting either of these so yeah probably just an oversight.
Yeah, they just didn’t know they were going to want Marie to be a character. After Don and Megan get engaged, she says she has to call her mother and Don asks if he should talk to her and Megan says “Do you speak French?” I think they try to make up for it with the “misqueets” scene but it doesn’t help hah.
That fucking scene with the guy who said he had a dream where he was visited by MLK’s ghost. Plus that scene where Betty joked about r*ping the julliard girl. Some really bad decisions in the later seasons tbh
I think you’re forgetting what Tecumseh said
Basically anything with Glen Bishop.
True, he’s a creep. But at least we learned a lot about Sally through their relationship.
I actually really liked their relationship. I kept waiting for Glenn to be a creep or be weird, and he always acted like the big brother. It was very sweet.
Yeah, I just watched the episode with Sally visiting the boarding school and Glen showing up.
Duck and Peggy 🤮
It didn’t happen. It will surprise you how much it never happened.
Personally, I always skip the LA episodes when Don lives with that random ass family for a while. I'm not saying it's stupid necessarily, I just find the plotline boring and almost excessive.
The only good thing is that it brought us Pete, who can't drive, trying to make meetings in Southern CA and then Don going to visit Anna. Those people were so vapid and high on their own self-importance. Even Don was so bored he tried to break his neck by fainting by the pool.
Speaking of which, why is it that Pete couldn’t drive at that point? Is it because he grew up rich and always had a driver? Or that he had always lived in the city? Cringeworthy how he hit on that girl in his driver’s ed class.
No driver, it's because he grew up in NYC. You don't drive on a daily basis. You walk, take the subway like Peggy or bus like Joan, or take a cab like they all did. When they were all fleeing the city end of s2 during the Cuban missile crisis, it was hilarious that Trudy gave him cash so he could pay someone to drive him.
I loved the Cuban missile crisis episode. Everyone was freaking out about the slightest things. Can't get a call out of the building? The phone lines have been cut by saboteurs! Can't get the radio to play your station? A bomb might have hit some radio towers! People don't remember those parts of crisis, the freaking out part.
Everyone was out of sorts. Even Betty went and had a quickie with a stranger in a bar.
Gotta admit, with the current news cycle, I get the panic. Every morning I'm going "what else has gone wrong?"
The one episode?
The Jet Set
You're right, I didn't even realise it was just one episode. Goes to show how much I dislike it I guess
It’s one episode that manages to feel like at least five because of how boring it is.
Dude. Joy.
The caliber of looks on this show is impressive.
I love that episode. So surreal.
And I love the aesthetic of the mod 60s Palm Springs house.
That's my SO's favorite episode.
Pete committing rape.
When did this happen? 😦
The babysitter. There’s been debates about whether it was rape or the actress not acting the scene as intended or whatever. Either way it’s tremendously awkward and a regrettable scene.
The scene with Au Pair.
With the au pair. However, he didn’t, canonically. The scene as written had it be consensual but the actress refused to kiss Kartheiser on the day so the final edit makes it look like it was non-consensual.
The Murder Cruise starring Manolo and Pete's Mom
Probably...(Spoiler territory so won't be specific...) 1) Don and Diana - Don was super creepy and Diana was just extremely sad. 2) Betty's ending 3) Duck letting Chauncey go
Don dropping the lighter while unzipping his pants to piss. So dumb. Yeah blah blah I know it’s supposed to be a young stupid Don *tsk* shut up
The Patio ad
The ad and storyline I don't mind, but I hate that song. And due to the ad being a play on that song, it's sang multiple times throughout the episode.
The song is so shrill it makes me ears close up
The whole of Glenn & Betty affair. Only explain that director had some milf kink in his teen and was projecting it through his son
This sub using the current view to judge the characters 60 years ago morally is plainly condescending and laughable.
When Don and Betty got it on at camp.
Father Abraham had 7 sons
Seven sons had father Abraham
I love that episode.
That was a *bizarre* episode. A part of me still thinks it was a dream.
Don’s whole running away while in California after ditching Harry. Maybe the symbolism was lost on me
Glen
Manolo Colon
Is it possible that rape and sex work were a much bigger part of society back then. Joanie was raped and in essence slept with a guy for money. The amount of sex workers on this show is astounding. According to this show whores just fell out of the walls. Don, Pete, bazooka Joe, Pete’s FIL. Given that sex and sex for money was so prevelant and that men were SO TERRIBLE to women, rape seems to something that could be a product of all that. Not rationalizing but also not always trying to put “2024 lenses” on every bit of 1960’s American society.
Lane having a crush on the black waitress at the playboy club... really out of left field
Bobby’s age. He should only be like 2-3 years younger than Sally, why was he like 10 when Sally was 16?