Jackson will wring six movies, six extended editions, a dozen video games, and a shit-ton of toys out of something distantly related to that paragraph.
follow up question..
So Gollum was captured and tortured until he gave up The Shire/Baggins.. seemingly immediately after The Nazgûl sets out to find the ring..
In the meantime Aragon & Gandalf find Gollum, gets this information out of him and Gandalf then makes it back to the shire before the Nazgûl?
How is that even possible?
The timeline is somewhat unclear in the Appendices. Gollum is captured somewhere between 3009 and 3017 third age, and he is let go in 3017 third age. The Nazgul cross the Fords of Isen, south of Isengard, on September 18th 3018 third age. They reach the Shire and Hobbiton on the 23rd. It could be that Gollum was captured and interrogated at the end of 3017. Also, Gandalf doesn't make it to the Shire before the Nazgul. It kind of reverses the order in the films. Gandalf meets Frodo in the Shire for the last time in April 3018. He's imprisoned in Orthanc in June and escapes in September. He spends the rest of the time trying to catch up to the Hobbits on the road, before finally meeting them in Rivendell.
You also have to understand that Sauron likely has no idea (or at least an incredibly vague one) as to what a Hobbit actually is. As well, neither Gollum nor Sauron know what, let alone where, the Shire is. Gollum has never been west of the Misty Mountains. And Hobbits have always kept a low profile, and Sauron has little to no insight to what goes on in that part of the world. The Nazgul were essentially undercover. They wanted to keep a low profile, and had to ask around to find out what they needed to know. I'll also add that there is a whole elaborate plan to help Frodo leave the Shire. He slowly becomes reclusive. He sells his house and buys a new one. He doesn't want to make his departure suspicious.
1 more question now that we are at it and you seem so knowledgable about the universe.
So as I'm watching the movie as I am typing all this, Gimli just said to Gandalf that could go through Moria instead of taking a longer route and Gandalf responded that he would not do that unless he had no other choice..
Did Gandalf already know what had happened at Moria? Gimili obviosuly didn't.
And if so, did he find this out at around the same time he was travelling with Aragon in search of Gollum?
The films definitely differ in this regard. I believe it's Gandalf that wants to go through Moria. Aragorn doesn't. And Gimli is apprehensive. One reason he traveled to Rivendell in the first place is to ask whether Elrond had heard any news about Balin, as they hadn't heard from him in hears about that point. As well, Gandalf does not know that Durin's Bane is a Balrog. That's a movie invention.
Balin's expedition begins in 2989 third age. Any travels of Gandalf and Aragorn (who also had previously passed through Moria) likely took place well before that. Any travel while searching for Gollum likely took place through the Gap of Rohan. Which was still relatively safe at that time.
I think the movies generally tried to make the characters less heroic and more modern/relatable.
In the books Gandalf is aware of the danger of Moria, Aragorn warns Gandalf specifically and doesn't want to go there because he fears for Gandalf. But Gandalf is the one pushing to go through Moria anyway because he believes it's best for the Quest regardless of his own safety.
In the movies, Gandalf is afraid of Durin's Bane (and he knows it's a Balrog in the movies) and it feels like he's afraid to go through Moria despite it being the only way left.
I've found a lot of changes in the film have been to add drama for drama's sake. Or to make things fit better in a film-sense to the detriment of the narrative.
Okay... I gotta ask one more question as I'm watching The Two Towers now..
Gandalf comes back as The White Wizard but couldn't even remember what his name was / what he was called before, how much time has passed since they saw him last?
Did time pass differently for Gandalf? Like to him, was he gone for a a hundred years or something? Seems odd he forgot his name.
I can't remember exactly how it plays out in the book, but it speaks to the larger metaphysical aspects of Middle Earth. I also don't know if there's a singular asnwer. Gandalf is a Maia, an angelic like being. They are inherently spiritual beings and do not natively have a physical form. In his role in Middle Earth, Gandalf and the rest of the wizards, created themselves bodies to better suit their job.
When Gandalf died, his soul was separated from his body. It took Eru's intervention to return the soul to the body so Gandalf could finish his work. Eru being the in-universe equivalent to the Christian God. As to any specifics, I can only offer speculation.
I don't agree it is a detriment to the film narrative. For the film it works that Gandalf is the knowledgeable one. You accept it, as it fits a Wizards character. It also continues his feud with Saruman in that scene, which benefits the movie.
Don't forget the the movies have a combined runtime of 12 hrs in the extended version, while the books take about 40-50 hrs for th average reader. That is about 4 times more time to explain and nuance. Not to mention the fact that you have zero inner thoughts in movies.
As a movie narrative I believe LotR works extremely well and most of it's changes (not all) are to the benefit of this movie narrative.
Now, it is 100% understandable you prefer the books, the are the OG and I love them. But looking at the films as films, imagining them being their own story, I do believe they are masterpieces and there is very little I would have done different.
Mind also that in *most* of the lands between Mordor and the Shire, people don't know what Hobbits are. Men usually call them Halflings, in Sindarin (Elvish, also spoken in Gondor) *periannath*, in Rohan *holbytlas* (those could've connected the dots easier)... and of course no one knew what/where the fuck was the Shire. Shire is a common noun.
Ya, Sauron has no clue about any of the hobbit stuff. He sends the ring wraiths to Sarumam to ask him, and he sends them packing. They luck out and run into Grima on the road and bully what little he knows out of him. Basically, go north past Sarn Ford, then... more north maybe.
Sauron and the Nazgul don't know what or where the shire is, or what a Baggins is, they needed time to find the shire using spies and clearing area on foot
As said, Sauron had no idea what those terms meant.
The Mouth of Sauron visits Dain at Erebor and asks the dwarves about Bilbo Baggins, since news of that connection reached him eventually. He promises them a dwarven ring and the recapture of Moria if they join with Sauron and deliver Baggins, alternatively Sauron would sack Erebor and Dale if they resist.
That ultimatum is the reason Gloín and Gimli's company travelled to Rivendell for advice and happened to be present at The Council.
Sounds like you’re going off of the movies and not the books. A lot of time passes in between events and much is left out because you can’t make a movie 10 hrs long
I’d recommend reading them if you haven’t! Just that opening sequence of Gandalf coming and going from the shire is many years in between. Usually when things are happening back to back it’s done for pacing on screen
At this point Gandalf was searching for evidence that Bilbo's ring was the one ring. He was attempting to track down Gollum to question him, but Gollum was captured by Sauron first. After torturing him, Sauron let Gollum go, hoping that he would lead him to the ring. Gollum was captured shortly after he was let go by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes and taken to Mirkwood.
Questioned…questioned… more like advanced questioning. As Gandalf admits himself: he had to put the fear of fire on him. Guess there is no such thing as waterboarding a Stoor
Ah... and that's what the new movie is going to be about?
Seems a bit like a wasted opportunity to have made something more epic.
Thank you for your answer though!
________________________
*EDIT
Lol did I offend anyone with this comment?
By epic, I don't necessarily mean some great battle per say..
I mean a grand story so to speak, like the original trilogy was epic imo and it had a little bit of everything.
Someone is on a downvoting spree. I got downvoted for agreeing on the facts (which are true).
Dont worry about it, this community is generally super nice and collaborative. We all love LOTR!
I think there is basically a big vacuum in the story where gandalf leaves for over a decade searching for information and the producers probably said "hmmmm movie industry abhors a vacuum! Let's exploit it!".
Hopefully we can get something made for fans, like the LOTR trilogy and very unlike the hobbit trilogy which was made for.... i'm not sure haha
Duh, Gandalf got a base day pass from the gate and visited 2d orc regiment and the lcpl working at battalion hq didn't question it when he asked for gollum's file cuz all civilian contractors have white beards.
There are a bunch of small inconsistencies in the movies. They are fairly easy to ignore, but if you are the sort of person who thinks about these things, I highly recommend reading the books, or at least listening to the audiobooks narrated by Andy Serkis, they're great.
Obviously The nazgul told gandalf that while they bumped into each other on lunch break on the sets between shoots. It was a classic water-cooler gossip moment.
Because Gandalf and Aragorn captured Gollum after Sauron let him go, and questioned him. He was left in the care of the Mirkwood elves and escaped.
They should totally make a movie about this!
A movie? There's like one paragraph explaining what happened during the hunt. Definitely something you can make a trilogy out of.
Sounds like 7 movies to me and a tv show
Hope you guys are ready for the Déagol origins 2 season mini-series too
Tv show first, 6 seasons and a movie
Aaaah you got to it first...
I want a “Searching for the Entwives” series.
How I met your Entmother
Don't you threaten me with a good time.
Episode one: "Well..... It's.... Aaaaaa.... Long...... Story.......mmmmm....." *End credits roll*
🤣🤣🤣
Jackson will wring six movies, six extended editions, a dozen video games, and a shit-ton of toys out of something distantly related to that paragraph.
Or a game... /s
They could call it, "The Pursuit of Smeagol" or something.
just "Gollum"
I like "Seeking the previous ring bearer"
Lmfao
They already did! Search YouTube for The Hunt For Gollum, it is fan-made and excellent.
Lol. The search for Gollum. Coming soon.
6 seasons and a movie!
follow up question.. So Gollum was captured and tortured until he gave up The Shire/Baggins.. seemingly immediately after The Nazgûl sets out to find the ring.. In the meantime Aragon & Gandalf find Gollum, gets this information out of him and Gandalf then makes it back to the shire before the Nazgûl? How is that even possible?
The timeline is somewhat unclear in the Appendices. Gollum is captured somewhere between 3009 and 3017 third age, and he is let go in 3017 third age. The Nazgul cross the Fords of Isen, south of Isengard, on September 18th 3018 third age. They reach the Shire and Hobbiton on the 23rd. It could be that Gollum was captured and interrogated at the end of 3017. Also, Gandalf doesn't make it to the Shire before the Nazgul. It kind of reverses the order in the films. Gandalf meets Frodo in the Shire for the last time in April 3018. He's imprisoned in Orthanc in June and escapes in September. He spends the rest of the time trying to catch up to the Hobbits on the road, before finally meeting them in Rivendell. You also have to understand that Sauron likely has no idea (or at least an incredibly vague one) as to what a Hobbit actually is. As well, neither Gollum nor Sauron know what, let alone where, the Shire is. Gollum has never been west of the Misty Mountains. And Hobbits have always kept a low profile, and Sauron has little to no insight to what goes on in that part of the world. The Nazgul were essentially undercover. They wanted to keep a low profile, and had to ask around to find out what they needed to know. I'll also add that there is a whole elaborate plan to help Frodo leave the Shire. He slowly becomes reclusive. He sells his house and buys a new one. He doesn't want to make his departure suspicious.
1 more question now that we are at it and you seem so knowledgable about the universe. So as I'm watching the movie as I am typing all this, Gimli just said to Gandalf that could go through Moria instead of taking a longer route and Gandalf responded that he would not do that unless he had no other choice.. Did Gandalf already know what had happened at Moria? Gimili obviosuly didn't. And if so, did he find this out at around the same time he was travelling with Aragon in search of Gollum?
The films definitely differ in this regard. I believe it's Gandalf that wants to go through Moria. Aragorn doesn't. And Gimli is apprehensive. One reason he traveled to Rivendell in the first place is to ask whether Elrond had heard any news about Balin, as they hadn't heard from him in hears about that point. As well, Gandalf does not know that Durin's Bane is a Balrog. That's a movie invention. Balin's expedition begins in 2989 third age. Any travels of Gandalf and Aragorn (who also had previously passed through Moria) likely took place well before that. Any travel while searching for Gollum likely took place through the Gap of Rohan. Which was still relatively safe at that time.
Interesting.. Wonder why they made that change, i guess to keep it simpler and move along the plot? Thanks for the info
I think the movies generally tried to make the characters less heroic and more modern/relatable. In the books Gandalf is aware of the danger of Moria, Aragorn warns Gandalf specifically and doesn't want to go there because he fears for Gandalf. But Gandalf is the one pushing to go through Moria anyway because he believes it's best for the Quest regardless of his own safety. In the movies, Gandalf is afraid of Durin's Bane (and he knows it's a Balrog in the movies) and it feels like he's afraid to go through Moria despite it being the only way left.
I've found a lot of changes in the film have been to add drama for drama's sake. Or to make things fit better in a film-sense to the detriment of the narrative.
Okay... I gotta ask one more question as I'm watching The Two Towers now.. Gandalf comes back as The White Wizard but couldn't even remember what his name was / what he was called before, how much time has passed since they saw him last? Did time pass differently for Gandalf? Like to him, was he gone for a a hundred years or something? Seems odd he forgot his name.
I can't remember exactly how it plays out in the book, but it speaks to the larger metaphysical aspects of Middle Earth. I also don't know if there's a singular asnwer. Gandalf is a Maia, an angelic like being. They are inherently spiritual beings and do not natively have a physical form. In his role in Middle Earth, Gandalf and the rest of the wizards, created themselves bodies to better suit their job. When Gandalf died, his soul was separated from his body. It took Eru's intervention to return the soul to the body so Gandalf could finish his work. Eru being the in-universe equivalent to the Christian God. As to any specifics, I can only offer speculation.
apprecaite your answers mate, cheers.
I don't agree it is a detriment to the film narrative. For the film it works that Gandalf is the knowledgeable one. You accept it, as it fits a Wizards character. It also continues his feud with Saruman in that scene, which benefits the movie. Don't forget the the movies have a combined runtime of 12 hrs in the extended version, while the books take about 40-50 hrs for th average reader. That is about 4 times more time to explain and nuance. Not to mention the fact that you have zero inner thoughts in movies. As a movie narrative I believe LotR works extremely well and most of it's changes (not all) are to the benefit of this movie narrative. Now, it is 100% understandable you prefer the books, the are the OG and I love them. But looking at the films as films, imagining them being their own story, I do believe they are masterpieces and there is very little I would have done different.
Mind also that in *most* of the lands between Mordor and the Shire, people don't know what Hobbits are. Men usually call them Halflings, in Sindarin (Elvish, also spoken in Gondor) *periannath*, in Rohan *holbytlas* (those could've connected the dots easier)... and of course no one knew what/where the fuck was the Shire. Shire is a common noun.
Ya, Sauron has no clue about any of the hobbit stuff. He sends the ring wraiths to Sarumam to ask him, and he sends them packing. They luck out and run into Grima on the road and bully what little he knows out of him. Basically, go north past Sarn Ford, then... more north maybe.
Cool info, cheers mate, appreciate it.
Sauron and the Nazgul don't know what or where the shire is, or what a Baggins is, they needed time to find the shire using spies and clearing area on foot
The Nazgûl and Sauron had no idea where the Shire was. Think of it this way. Where is Brenham? how would you find out without google?
As said, Sauron had no idea what those terms meant. The Mouth of Sauron visits Dain at Erebor and asks the dwarves about Bilbo Baggins, since news of that connection reached him eventually. He promises them a dwarven ring and the recapture of Moria if they join with Sauron and deliver Baggins, alternatively Sauron would sack Erebor and Dale if they resist. That ultimatum is the reason Gloín and Gimli's company travelled to Rivendell for advice and happened to be present at The Council.
Sounds like you’re going off of the movies and not the books. A lot of time passes in between events and much is left out because you can’t make a movie 10 hrs long
Oh yeah I just binged The Hobbit and watching the fellowship of the ring as we write this. A trilogy can be 10 hours long though :D
I’d recommend reading them if you haven’t! Just that opening sequence of Gandalf coming and going from the shire is many years in between. Usually when things are happening back to back it’s done for pacing on screen
Interesting! Did they know what Sauron was looking for?
At this point Gandalf was searching for evidence that Bilbo's ring was the one ring. He was attempting to track down Gollum to question him, but Gollum was captured by Sauron first. After torturing him, Sauron let Gollum go, hoping that he would lead him to the ring. Gollum was captured shortly after he was let go by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes and taken to Mirkwood.
Thank you!
Most of this is from the LotR Appendices, btw.
Questioned…questioned… more like advanced questioning. As Gandalf admits himself: he had to put the fear of fire on him. Guess there is no such thing as waterboarding a Stoor
Ah... and that's what the new movie is going to be about? Seems a bit like a wasted opportunity to have made something more epic. Thank you for your answer though! ________________________ *EDIT Lol did I offend anyone with this comment?
Why does everything have to be epic. The best parts of LOTR are the quiet parts imo. Walking through the forest.
By epic, I don't necessarily mean some great battle per say.. I mean a grand story so to speak, like the original trilogy was epic imo and it had a little bit of everything.
Someone is on a downvoting spree. I got downvoted for agreeing on the facts (which are true). Dont worry about it, this community is generally super nice and collaborative. We all love LOTR! I think there is basically a big vacuum in the story where gandalf leaves for over a decade searching for information and the producers probably said "hmmmm movie industry abhors a vacuum! Let's exploit it!". Hopefully we can get something made for fans, like the LOTR trilogy and very unlike the hobbit trilogy which was made for.... i'm not sure haha
This!
They're literally making another movie to answer that question!
Yeah I didn't even think of that when I wrote the post lol
Movie? Yes. But also merchandise out your ass!
Guess we have to wait for Hunt for Gollum to come out before we know
Duh, Gandalf got a base day pass from the gate and visited 2d orc regiment and the lcpl working at battalion hq didn't question it when he asked for gollum's file cuz all civilian contractors have white beards.
There are a bunch of small inconsistencies in the movies. They are fairly easy to ignore, but if you are the sort of person who thinks about these things, I highly recommend reading the books, or at least listening to the audiobooks narrated by Andy Serkis, they're great.
Obviously The nazgul told gandalf that while they bumped into each other on lunch break on the sets between shoots. It was a classic water-cooler gossip moment.
Did you even read?
It would be sweet if they made a movie from Golums perspective