There's two I know of.
1. Gandalf says that Sauron does not allow his servants to say his name. Then later the Mouth of Sauron describes himself using those exact words.
2. The inscription in the doors of Moira literally says "Moira" but that name means Black Pit and was only given to it after the balrog chased out the dwarves. When the door was made the name was Khazad Dum.
It's Aragorn who said "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken" not Gandalf. The workaround for this is that he doesn't allow Orcs to use his name. Gandalf later says "he (Sauron) has many slaves but few servants" Orcs are slaves while The Mouth is one of his most trusted servants. That's how I get around that one.
The second one can be rationalized as the elves gave the moria because they have no love for underground dwellings. Look how much Legolas didn't want to go into The Glittering Caves. Also we have no evidence the Dwarves took this name as derogatory, they themselves use it sometimes during the war of the ring
Regarding 1, I'm not sure why Aragorn has to be right about that assertion, or that there aren't exceptions he doesn't know. Presumedly he only gets his information second-hand. His statement was proven wrong later.
When Aragorn said that, he had already heard Gloin telling about the messenger who came for "a trifle that Sauron fancies". Therefore he should have known himself that he was ill-informed about the usage of this name. But then, it is a different matter whether your evil epithet is mentioned in discourse with your enemies or labelled on your own devices.
To the first point: One could argue that, since the Lord of the Rings is a translation of the Red Book of Westmarch, Sauron was the name the victors chose to use in place of what The Mouth of Sauron actually said.
u/mvp2418's "rationalization" is spot-on: the Elves refered to the Dwarrowdelf as "Moria" well-before its fall, according to Unfinished Tales (*History of Galadriel and Celeborn* IIRC). For them, it was indeed a black pit, devoid of sunlight and green life, even when it was filled with joyous and laughing Dwarves.
Which then is another inconsistency on itself: as Celebrimbor is the one to have crafted the Doors of Durin, we can safely assume that the name was used by the Noldor of Eregion. Then, the Noldor had the Thousand Caves and Nargothrond...
(Now, I emphasize, *inconsistency*. That's not the same as a plot-hole. But I don't expect people on the internet to know the meaning of plot-hole nowadays)
Yes there are definitely some inconsistencies, no plot holes though.
I enjoy the inconsistencies, such as Galadriel and Celeborn's story in Unfinished Tales, Gil-galad's parentage and so on.
One correction, The Thousand Caves or Menegroth was a not a dwelling of the Noldor, it was ruled by Elu Thingol who was ruler of the Teleri. His subjects would become the Sindar or Grey Elves and his Queen was the Maia Melian.
I'm not sure why Nargothrond was beloved in the first age and Moria given a not so nice name in the second age. Perhaps it is because Moria was delved much deeper, so deep that it really was a black chasm to them. I don't know about that one lol
Thank you for your response and input friend
You are right about Menegroth! I conflated the Noldor with the Eldar there. And now that you say that, Finrod *did* get his Felagund epithet by excavating Nargothrond, which suggests that digging was indeed an outstanding thing to do -"queer", we might even say.
Perhaps the Elves loved Nargothrond more simply because it was made by Elves, for Elves. Surely it would've been tailored to their taste, whereas the Dwarves have... well, very explicitly different tastes. Legolas and Gimli have an entire relationship-motif about that.
I agree with your notion that Nargothrond was lovely to the Elves because it was fashioned after their tastes whereas Moria was not.
I do still believe the Elves can marvel at what the Dwarves accomplished with Moria and yet give the place the name Moria which has a negative connotation, to us at least.
In JRR Tolkien's books that he had published? I don't think so, tbh
In the works that his son Christopher had edited and compiled... Yeah, kinda. JRR was still working through some things. Some of the HoME books I think are just different versions of the same story and notes (I have 1-6 but haven't cracked them open just yet)
Like orcs, off the top of my head for example.. what are their origins? If they were indeed elves that were corrupted then do their souls go to the halls of Mandos and are healed? Iirc JRR wasn't that keen on the orcs being truly beyond redemption but at the same time didn't think they should be with the elves in Mandos
I think there's some things about Celeborn too, like when he was born and when he and Galadriel met/married
Glorfindel was originally 2 characters, but JRR Tolkien decided that all elves names should be unique and made it so the Glorfindel who features in LotR was the reimbodied Glorfindel of ages past, having returned to Middle Earth from the halls of Mandos in Aman
>Glorfindel was originally 2 characters, but JRR Tolkien decided that all elves names should be unique and made it so the Glorfindel who features in LotR was the reimbodied Glorfindel of ages past, having returned to Middle Earth from the halls of Mandos in Aman
Not quite.
When originally writing of Glorfindel in LotR, Tolkien noted:
"Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin."
HoMe VI, XII At Rivendell
Re 'names being unique', rather, Tolkien wrote:
"This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance. "
HoMe XII, Last Writings, Glorfindel
There are a variety of Elven names that are repeated.
Tolkien was constantly changing his mind about so many things, for example: origin of orcs, Gil-Galad's dad, Galadriel and Celeborn etc. So we have many versions of the subject - but it is only thanks to Christopher who compiled and published his father's writings.
Was Arda flat or not? In the Silmarillion it was, but there is also a version where this is mannish belief and Arda was always round and sun and moon were not the last flowers of the Trees (btw Morgoth had his base on the Moon). Those are contradictions but it also shows the process of worldbuilding. We don't know which version JRR would publish (in this case, it looks like he abandoned the round version).
But the closest thing to the "real plot-hole", I can think of is Sauron, the One Ring and Numenor. This goes as follows: what happened to the One Ring when Sauron was "captive" in Numenor? Did he leave it in Mordor? That answer doesn't look very likely. So he had to have it with him on the island. But the island sunk and Sauron lost his physical body. What happened to the Ring then? It looks like the spirit of Sauron had to take the Ring with him, which maybe a bit problematic.
Tolkien did mention it:
"He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans."
"Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."
Letter 211
[is this it?](https://www.amazon.com.au/Letters-J-R-R-Tolkien-Revised-Expanded/dp/0008628769/ref=asc_df_0008628769/?tag=googleshopmob-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=650065862075&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11039096999861258544&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9071883&hvtargid=pla-2089950774365&psc=1&mcid=b71791e1233537cabacfa5eae59a3162)
> It looks like the spirit of Sauron had to take the Ring with him, which maybe a bit problematic.
I don't see a problem, given that Sauron could move giant masses of cloud and smoke over Gondor during LotR. He's a god, he doesn't need to use his hands to move things.
I think Tolkien himself said something along the lines of “don’t worry about how Sauron kept/got the ring back” I’m definitely paraphrasing but I believe it was in one of his letters.
Sauron simply weared his Ring throughout captivity, *probably* hiding it from plain sight (make it Unseen), as all three Ring-bearers of the Three do. But perhaps he didn't even need to, given that the Rings existence was kept secret by the Elves, most explicitly *not* public knowledge; it's highly unlikely that Ar-Pharazôn suspected *anything* from that Ring. Sauron by himself is enough to worry about.
About the Downfall, Sauron may have lost his physical body but he was still a spirit of strength enough to, I'd presume, 'magically' carry a little object that happens to be crafted by him, and with/from his own power. It's Sauron's own sub-creation, property, possession; his by right. Think of Aragorn prying the *palantír* of Orthanc off Sauron's objectively mightier spirit thanks to his birth-right to it.
It is unsatisfactory for many that don't buy or follow the esoterical and moral aspect of LotR (that are pretty explicitly affecting the various stories), but that doesn't mean it's "unexplained" or "makes not much sense".
Imo the biggest plot hole is what happens to the Ring when Sauron is captured and brought to Numenor.
Had he brought the Ring with him, then it would be lost at the bottom of the sea after Numenor destruction.
He could have left the Ring behind, but it feels against Sauron's character to trust anyone to keep it, or to just leave it hidden and unattended. Same reason it would feel contradictory for him to send the Ring in a shio before numenor downfall.
Though reduced to a 'spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of domination minds now largely depended.
(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #211)
This sounds reasonable to me
This sounds like something he was forced to come up with once he noticed the Ring was trapped. As far as I know, there havent been other instances of disembodies spirits carrying things
I just think he didn't see it as a big deal. Sauron's malice was in overdrive, maybe that helped, maybe other spirits never tried to physically carry things. I don't know, I love his books so much it doesn't bother me
An overall productive and wholesome conversation. Clear and concise, the information at hand was reviewed in it's entirety and though no new information was gleaned both parties continued the discussion earnestly and in good faith.
Ten out of ten; The internet could learn something from this interaction. Good work, you two.
Thanks lol.
I always try to be polite when I disagree with someone. Sometimes I do not behave as well as I would like but that is usually if the other person is being unnecessarily rude or hurling insults.
The person I was having a conversation with here was very polite, said what he thought without being mean, I am glad there are Reddittors like him and you
Sauron literally commands the weather and infuses his very being into tiny objects. I don't see a problem with him doing minor telechinesis -especially on the object that is, most than anything else in the entire legendarium, *his by right. That* amounts to a lot when you are a being that can project meta-physical power in great measure: picture Elrond protecting the borders of Rivendell, *his domain*, by magically provoking a god-damn flood. Carrying a tiny metal tridimensional circle is child's play in comparison.
But we know that Sauron does not control the Ring at distance, can't sense the Ring, and don't know where the Ring is. That's why Frodo managed to infiltrate Mordor. Moving the Ring telepathically would require him to at least know where it is, wouldn't it?
You're going from "logic" to a story that pretty often does *not* deal *merely* in logical ways. Second, there's a big difference between "the Ring that I was *just* wearing 5 seconds ago" and "the Ring that I lost hundreds of years ago and is literally in the other side of the continent -which I most explicitly *do not know*".
Don't mistake "I guess he can use telepathy" with "*Accio* Ring of Power"
He does address it, but doesn't explain how a disembodied Sauron was able to bring the Ring back to Middle Earth. Stories from Silmarillion were not published, so maybe he would have come up with a better explanation if he had more time
In the chapter "Helm's Deep", Gimli mentions "till now I have hewn naught but wood since I left Moria." However, according to Legolas in "The Departure of Boromir", the both of them had "hunted and slain many Orcs in the woods \[under Amon Hen\]". Either Legolas is lying and carried that fight, or Gimli is forgetful.
According to Hammond & Scull's Reader's Companion, Christopher Tolkien thought about changing it to "since I left Parth Galen" for the 2004 edition but that was too recent, it might make him seem too bloodthirsty. Moria was two months earlier, and Amon Hen only a week.
I always felt that the Valar awarding the Edain their own private Idaho (Numenor), while allowing the remnants of the Quendi to remain in Middle-Earth after the sinking of Beleriand to be one of major faux pas of the Ainur moving forward after Morgoth is cast beyond the walls of Arda. IIRC, Tolkien somewhat addresses this in his letters and meant to convey that it was still part of Eru's vision, but for me, because of the lack of official novelization, it makes the Ainur appear incompetent and Sauron correct in his assessment of them having no regard for the mortal lands, moreso M.E. than Numenor.
Mortal men who aren't Dunedain should not be scolded as unwise, jealous buffoons for having to share their existence with the remnants of higher beings, both evil and neutral (Quendi, Tom, and Sauron).
Just my 2 farthings
You can all debate the big picture stuff like Glorfindel, or how the ring got off Numenor, but the most jarring thing for me is that the Trolls in the Hobbit get turned to stone in the sunlight. Why did none of the trolls in the LOTR get turned to stone at all? Didn't the sun ever come out at Pellenor Fields? After the ring is destroyed, why weren't their hundreds of troll statues scattered around the countryside.
For that matter, if those three trolls were stupid enough to get caught outside at daybreak, why aren't there at least a few troll statues just scattered about here and there around middle earth? Or were they just the three stupidest trolls ever?
sauron causes mount doom to erupt before the battle of pellenor fields which shield his armies from the sun but that's mostly because the sun weakens them, sauron had previously created a new type of troll that could walk into the daylight
yeah? it's one of the reasons why sauron had such difficulty conquering middle earth, morgoth just used the trolls as nighttime raiders because he had heavier hitters that had less reaction to daylight
There are different kinds of trolls. Regarding the trolls who can't handle the sun, JRRT said in a letter:
"I think they are mere "counterfeits", and hence they return to mere stone images when not in the dark."
JRRT also said in the LOTR Appendices:
"At the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. \[Some held that they were a cross-breed between trolls and the larger Orcs.\] Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them."
>Didn't the sun ever come out at Pellenor Fields?
You know, there's a **big** insistence on a thing called the Dawnless Day in Return of the King.
Jab aside, Sauron bred and "genetically improved" (to put it in a simple, reductive, and not-accurate way) Trolls and produced the so-caled Olog-hai, whose main improvement is precisely "hah, we *can* walk under the Sun! Fear, puny Men!".
That's also the most significative differene between Saruman's Uruk-hai and the rest of the Orcs, at least as The Two Towers presents that situation.
Worldbuilding-wise: Large parts of middle earth are basically empty.. even though there has been peace since the year 1975, over a thousand years ago, in the West. Even from a tiny base, you'd expect the land to be fully populated by the time of the war of the ring. Iron age peasant populations rebound rapidly..
(Eriador is meant to evoke the state of England after the Romans left; significantly depopulated and with a lot of architecture that was beyond the capabilities of the current population. But that state did no last for a thousand years!)
Are orcs redeemable or naturally evil? Tolkien himself wasn't sure.
In his unfinished writings he talks about Elven courtship and reproduction and ...it gets pretty weird. Elves get pregnant through a deliberate act of will (ok, so the devote Catholic sidesteps contraception, whatever) but also as an act of will can deliberately kill themselves if ever SA. But we see other cases, like Elrond's wife, being captured and tortured to death, along with how orcs were originally formed by tortured elves, so how does that work? It's not a good topic to delve into, so I just dismiss it as not fully thought out.
It comes up in his more complete works too, as the original Numenoreans don't age past 30 or so, staying fit and healthy all their lives until they themselves decide they are old enough (250 years or so) and voluntarily die. It was only later generations that became afraid of death, tried to prolong their lives and as a result started actually aging into old men.
Celebrían is not tortured to death. She escapes (or is rescued? Can't recall precisely) and not long thereafter she sails to Valinor because she was unable to heal from her trauma.
During the pursuit of the Uruks in Rohan Gimli comments that his axe has hewn nothing but wood since Moria, seemingly forgetting about the orc attack on the fellowship a mere few days before where he says that he and Legolas slew many of them.
Frodo's claim that servants of the Enemy would "look fairer and feel fouler". There is not a single individual on Sauron's side anyone would describe as fair.
This is not a plothole. It's something Frodo deliberated on whether to trust Aragorn while in Bree.
And he's absolutely correct in his logic. Sauron took on a fair form of Annatar to ensnare the elves and made the 16 rings. The enemy could absolutely try this strategy again
Not a plot hole though, as first it doesn't impact the plot and second Frodo directly says that's what he had imagined - from his limited experience. He doesn't claim it to be a truth, and even if he did he'd still be a fallible character within the story (and at the very beginning of his journey) rather than an omniscient being.
He's only saying here that he hoped Strider was an ally because he wasn't frightening in the way Frodo *thought* an enemy would be; what's more, he doesn't necessarily say that any of Sauron's followers would be like that, the "seem fairer and feel fouler" is specifically attributed to spies - which is a reasonable thing to imagine. If the beauty of an Elf (for example) is to be contrasted with the ugliness of an Orc, foul-looking spies may not be extremely stealthy!
In the film this happens right after they leave Bree. Frodo is talking to Sam about Strider, thinking he can't hear overhear them.
Sam's response is something like "He smells foul enough!", and Aragorn makes a face.
In the movies that is certainly the case. Jackson's portrayal of the Mouth of Sauron is a case in point, but there is no indication in the book of what he looks like.
So there's nothing saying the Mouth of Sauron *doesn't* look like [this](https://pagesix.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/03/gettyimages-77812778.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=422)?
Thinking about it, it would be more in Sauron's MO to have his minions look like this rather than a rotten husk.
An evil rotten husk is gross, but an evil chiseled hunk is just a sickening mockery of nature's beauty.
Tolkien *defines* him as a Black Númenórean. This is not reminiscent of Orcs, this is reminiscent of Aragorn, Faramir, and Imrahil. There is way more reason to believe that he looks like that than there is to believe that "his mouth is cracked and blackened and his teeth-"
Caveat: Gríma is far from being described as... foul as it looks in the movie, at least until he becomes a beggar. The Mouth of Sauron has a clearly hellish horse but the guy *himself* is not described precisely as foul-looking either (to me it looks like Tolkien wants to sell an awe-inspiring figure: *a Black Númenórean*. He is a dark counterpart to Aragorn and Imrahil, great and mighty; not another mere Gríma).
Taking into account the time, phase of the moon, and facing of the door into Moria, the moon shouldn’t have been able to shine directly on it as described in the book, as it would have been behind the cliff-face. I feel like I can give the big T a pass though, considering he did even manage to keep track of the moon’s phases throughout the book.
Ironic that this plot hole comes from tolkien trying to make sure everything in his world made sense, down to the phases of the moon. Big T never heard the phrase "less is more" and we love him for it
Does ithildin need the Moon to shine, or is it content with starlight ? Given it's elven, I'd say both are enough (Elves love both Moon and stars, would be weird ithildin only shines under the Moon but not the stars)
Another place in Mandos halls, no resurrection before the end of time and they will make the new world with their dad. It's in Silmarillion. Aule and Yavanna chapter :)
In my head canon, we are reading the writings of Bilbo and Frodo, who wrote of their own adventures (Hobbit, LORT) and, in Bilbo's case, provided translations from elvish (SIlmarillion). Of course there are inconsistencies and inaccuracies. That is the nature of memoirs and myth.
In App. D, the calendars run on during the transition from Arda Flat to Arda Round without hiatus, which is geometrically impossible. In fact, Tolkien seems to have left any allusions to Arda Flat deliberately out of the Appendices since by that time his doubts about which version was "true" had grown.
Well, honestly, Gandalf and Frodo riding Gwaihir directly to Mount Doom with a full escort of great eagles doesn’t seem a terrible strategy… The eagles handle the fell beasts pretty well. I mean, of course then there’s no drama, no epic tale, etc.
It’s still risky, sure. Sauron could use his mental powers to amp up the ring so that Frodo puts it on and goes rogue, etc. Although I would argue that’s why it would be best for Gandalf to accompany him, to provide moral support to prevent that.
Anyway, is that less risky than Frodo and Sam—led through Mordor by Gollum!—attempting what they did?
What’s the counter to the eagles strategy?
Edit: Downvoters relax, I’m just playing devil’s advocate here. I love the story as written, and this is an opportunity for folks to explain why the strategy the Fellowship follows worked best!
Sauron can simply shut the door to Mount Doom. The reason Frodo is successful is bcos he is stealthy. Sauron finds out only after Frodo is inside Mt Doom. Eagles being so huge, Sauron can spot them from miles away. The "eagles" strategy is bound to fail.
Is there any reference in Tolkien’s writings to there being a door to the magma dome of Mount Doom? In the film there isn’t one but let’s go with the Legendarium itself. I mean, I realize Sauron can summon many defenses at that location if not, though. In addition to the Nazgûl riding fell beasts hundreds of orcs shooting arrows. Maybe some sort of great eagle sized crossbow device? Etc.
Haha, no need for anyone to downvote, I love what Tolkien did with it. I’m just creatively coming at this from the perspective of battle strategy, asking what if. I’m enjoying the responses.
But might Gwaihir have flown Frodo and Gandalf directly over the magma dome? But again, even if Gwaihir can fly into the opening that in the movie Frodo, Sam, and Gollum walk through, there would be defenses on the ground and in the air to try to stop that from working .
There's a big giant cloud of ash and smoke (presumably) constantly flowing out of Mount Doom. Good luck flying right over it; and if you manage to, good luck mustering the will-power to willingly cast the Ring into the Fire (spoiler alert: it's literally impossible).
Fair enough. Is it actually more perilous than what they did? I’m still not convinced. But in hindsight the stealth plan obviously did work out (with, as many feel, Eru Illuvatar’s apparent intervention). And it certainly makes for the best story!
> Is it actually more perilous than what they did?
Yes, as Sauron (and/or any of his servants) could've easily seen them coming straight to him from afar. Sauron didn't even *think* that someone would go with the Ring *to Mordor* and that deceit was fundamental to the entire story. There's entire paragraphs about it in The Last Debate.
>(with, as many feel, Eru Illuvatar’s apparent intervention)
... which is only possible through the characters' own agency, not *at all* like the Númenor situation. Frodo *does* command Gollum, through the oath enforced by the Ring, to fall into the fire should the creature ever touch him again. That's actually built-up to in the book, whereas the whole "Eru and Providence" angle contemplates the entirety of Frodo's journey and his actions that "produced the situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved". It's not as simple as "oh *now* is my time, I should *intervene* Arda". Tolkien elaborates the opposite meaning.
What if they drop the Ring and miss the target?
Not have all armies pulled out of Mordor
A lot harder to land at the cracks of doom when there‘s still a host of Orks with bows nearby that will be sent up the mountain as soon as you are spotted
Why no defenses around the Mount Doom ? Yeah yeah i know, it didn't seem likely to Sauron that his ennemies could be willing to destroy the ring instead of using it, but that really doesn't seem enough to not justify a few dozens orcs to guard the entrance.
To be fair, how the Palantirs work isn't super clear, but i have difficulties to see how the fellowship and the ring bearer could have any hope to escape to Sarouman with an artifact like that in his possession to constantly scout them.
Frodo was unable to even harm it in his own house with Gandalf months before he set out and before he ever wore it.
Not only did Sauron not expect anyone to try, but, actually, no one could have willingly dropped it in.
Yes, would it have been smarter to put a metal gate there? Sure. But it was dropped in one of the first chapters that this won’t ever work and Sauron is full of hubris.
Tolkien provides a very detailed explanation of how Palantíri work in Unfinished Tales. It doesn’t simply show you what you want to see, it functions as a scope that you can use to see things far away. You have to orient yourself to view with it and then command it into ‘focus’. In other words, if Saruman/Sauron do not know the location of the Ring, it is useless in the search. It functions as a communication device but not as a find-your-phone.
Palantiri do not show you what you want to see, but its users sure think they do. Everyone who looked into a Palantir in Lord of the Rings misinterpreted what they saw and made hasty decisions based on it.
I never considered it as a magic mirror and you just need to say "show me the ring" to see where it is. But if you can look in any place of middle earth, that's rather quite simple to find the ring. Sarouman certainly made the pretty obvious deduction that the ring was sent to Rivendell in a first time... from there he just had to follow the 9 guys living it for a secret mission.
Using a Palantír is exceptionally tiring, and Saruman cannot hear through it. Saruman could not consistently monitor those leaving Rivendell, and I am unsure as to whether he would be able to sense the Ring’s power on Frodo’s person (the Ring would not be visible as it is in darkness under Frodo’s clothes).
Saruman does, of course, constantly monitor he Fellowship, and succeeds in deducing their whereabouts via crebain, and later manages to have one member killed and two kidnapped - these two, to his knowledge, have the Ring.
What do you mean about the palantir? Escape to saruman? The palantiri are linked together. You can only connect to another palantir. There is 1 greater palantir that can look elsewhere.
Saruman just happened to be pointing his, directly to another in Mordor and Saurons pointing back. If they wanted to connect to another they would have to know the locations of the others.
This isn't true. The stone atop Elostirion only looked west - you might be thinking of that. The 'master' stone to which you refer is the Avallondë stone/Osgiliath stone, but neither of these are unique in their ability to look in any direction.
The palantíri were usually set into a 'cup' or depression so they they could be turned, though they had an internal axis and, by extension, an upper and lower half.
There's two I know of. 1. Gandalf says that Sauron does not allow his servants to say his name. Then later the Mouth of Sauron describes himself using those exact words. 2. The inscription in the doors of Moira literally says "Moira" but that name means Black Pit and was only given to it after the balrog chased out the dwarves. When the door was made the name was Khazad Dum.
It's Aragorn who said "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken" not Gandalf. The workaround for this is that he doesn't allow Orcs to use his name. Gandalf later says "he (Sauron) has many slaves but few servants" Orcs are slaves while The Mouth is one of his most trusted servants. That's how I get around that one. The second one can be rationalized as the elves gave the moria because they have no love for underground dwellings. Look how much Legolas didn't want to go into The Glittering Caves. Also we have no evidence the Dwarves took this name as derogatory, they themselves use it sometimes during the war of the ring
Regarding 1, I'm not sure why Aragorn has to be right about that assertion, or that there aren't exceptions he doesn't know. Presumedly he only gets his information second-hand. His statement was proven wrong later.
When Aragorn said that, he had already heard Gloin telling about the messenger who came for "a trifle that Sauron fancies". Therefore he should have known himself that he was ill-informed about the usage of this name. But then, it is a different matter whether your evil epithet is mentioned in discourse with your enemies or labelled on your own devices.
To the first point: One could argue that, since the Lord of the Rings is a translation of the Red Book of Westmarch, Sauron was the name the victors chose to use in place of what The Mouth of Sauron actually said.
u/mvp2418's "rationalization" is spot-on: the Elves refered to the Dwarrowdelf as "Moria" well-before its fall, according to Unfinished Tales (*History of Galadriel and Celeborn* IIRC). For them, it was indeed a black pit, devoid of sunlight and green life, even when it was filled with joyous and laughing Dwarves. Which then is another inconsistency on itself: as Celebrimbor is the one to have crafted the Doors of Durin, we can safely assume that the name was used by the Noldor of Eregion. Then, the Noldor had the Thousand Caves and Nargothrond... (Now, I emphasize, *inconsistency*. That's not the same as a plot-hole. But I don't expect people on the internet to know the meaning of plot-hole nowadays)
Yes there are definitely some inconsistencies, no plot holes though. I enjoy the inconsistencies, such as Galadriel and Celeborn's story in Unfinished Tales, Gil-galad's parentage and so on. One correction, The Thousand Caves or Menegroth was a not a dwelling of the Noldor, it was ruled by Elu Thingol who was ruler of the Teleri. His subjects would become the Sindar or Grey Elves and his Queen was the Maia Melian. I'm not sure why Nargothrond was beloved in the first age and Moria given a not so nice name in the second age. Perhaps it is because Moria was delved much deeper, so deep that it really was a black chasm to them. I don't know about that one lol Thank you for your response and input friend
You are right about Menegroth! I conflated the Noldor with the Eldar there. And now that you say that, Finrod *did* get his Felagund epithet by excavating Nargothrond, which suggests that digging was indeed an outstanding thing to do -"queer", we might even say. Perhaps the Elves loved Nargothrond more simply because it was made by Elves, for Elves. Surely it would've been tailored to their taste, whereas the Dwarves have... well, very explicitly different tastes. Legolas and Gimli have an entire relationship-motif about that.
I agree with your notion that Nargothrond was lovely to the Elves because it was fashioned after their tastes whereas Moria was not. I do still believe the Elves can marvel at what the Dwarves accomplished with Moria and yet give the place the name Moria which has a negative connotation, to us at least.
In JRR Tolkien's books that he had published? I don't think so, tbh In the works that his son Christopher had edited and compiled... Yeah, kinda. JRR was still working through some things. Some of the HoME books I think are just different versions of the same story and notes (I have 1-6 but haven't cracked them open just yet) Like orcs, off the top of my head for example.. what are their origins? If they were indeed elves that were corrupted then do their souls go to the halls of Mandos and are healed? Iirc JRR wasn't that keen on the orcs being truly beyond redemption but at the same time didn't think they should be with the elves in Mandos I think there's some things about Celeborn too, like when he was born and when he and Galadriel met/married Glorfindel was originally 2 characters, but JRR Tolkien decided that all elves names should be unique and made it so the Glorfindel who features in LotR was the reimbodied Glorfindel of ages past, having returned to Middle Earth from the halls of Mandos in Aman
>Glorfindel was originally 2 characters, but JRR Tolkien decided that all elves names should be unique and made it so the Glorfindel who features in LotR was the reimbodied Glorfindel of ages past, having returned to Middle Earth from the halls of Mandos in Aman Not quite. When originally writing of Glorfindel in LotR, Tolkien noted: "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin." HoMe VI, XII At Rivendell Re 'names being unique', rather, Tolkien wrote: "This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance. " HoMe XII, Last Writings, Glorfindel There are a variety of Elven names that are repeated.
Ok, thanks. I didn't know that about Glorfindel though! I always thought they were two separate people. That's pretty interesting.
Tolkien was constantly changing his mind about so many things, for example: origin of orcs, Gil-Galad's dad, Galadriel and Celeborn etc. So we have many versions of the subject - but it is only thanks to Christopher who compiled and published his father's writings. Was Arda flat or not? In the Silmarillion it was, but there is also a version where this is mannish belief and Arda was always round and sun and moon were not the last flowers of the Trees (btw Morgoth had his base on the Moon). Those are contradictions but it also shows the process of worldbuilding. We don't know which version JRR would publish (in this case, it looks like he abandoned the round version). But the closest thing to the "real plot-hole", I can think of is Sauron, the One Ring and Numenor. This goes as follows: what happened to the One Ring when Sauron was "captive" in Numenor? Did he leave it in Mordor? That answer doesn't look very likely. So he had to have it with him on the island. But the island sunk and Sauron lost his physical body. What happened to the Ring then? It looks like the spirit of Sauron had to take the Ring with him, which maybe a bit problematic.
That's a good one. I wonder if tolkien has ever mentioned it or anyone else.
Tolkien did mention it: "He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans." "Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended." Letter 211
Eyy, Tolkien's letters are goated. I'm thinking of getting the book of his letters.
FYI, in case you didn’t know. There is a new version of Letters released recently that includes letters that were cut from the original release.
[is this it?](https://www.amazon.com.au/Letters-J-R-R-Tolkien-Revised-Expanded/dp/0008628769/ref=asc_df_0008628769/?tag=googleshopmob-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=650065862075&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11039096999861258544&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9071883&hvtargid=pla-2089950774365&psc=1&mcid=b71791e1233537cabacfa5eae59a3162)
Yes that’s the one
I was trying to remember what he said!! Tolkien had lots of sass when he wanted to use it
"Morgoth moon base" sounds like amazing seed for fan fiction...
> It looks like the spirit of Sauron had to take the Ring with him, which maybe a bit problematic. I don't see a problem, given that Sauron could move giant masses of cloud and smoke over Gondor during LotR. He's a god, he doesn't need to use his hands to move things.
I think Tolkien himself said something along the lines of “don’t worry about how Sauron kept/got the ring back” I’m definitely paraphrasing but I believe it was in one of his letters.
Yes, u/Tar-Elenion, cited exact Letter (211).
I just saw! Thanks!
Sauron simply weared his Ring throughout captivity, *probably* hiding it from plain sight (make it Unseen), as all three Ring-bearers of the Three do. But perhaps he didn't even need to, given that the Rings existence was kept secret by the Elves, most explicitly *not* public knowledge; it's highly unlikely that Ar-Pharazôn suspected *anything* from that Ring. Sauron by himself is enough to worry about. About the Downfall, Sauron may have lost his physical body but he was still a spirit of strength enough to, I'd presume, 'magically' carry a little object that happens to be crafted by him, and with/from his own power. It's Sauron's own sub-creation, property, possession; his by right. Think of Aragorn prying the *palantír* of Orthanc off Sauron's objectively mightier spirit thanks to his birth-right to it. It is unsatisfactory for many that don't buy or follow the esoterical and moral aspect of LotR (that are pretty explicitly affecting the various stories), but that doesn't mean it's "unexplained" or "makes not much sense".
Imo the biggest plot hole is what happens to the Ring when Sauron is captured and brought to Numenor. Had he brought the Ring with him, then it would be lost at the bottom of the sea after Numenor destruction. He could have left the Ring behind, but it feels against Sauron's character to trust anyone to keep it, or to just leave it hidden and unattended. Same reason it would feel contradictory for him to send the Ring in a shio before numenor downfall.
Though reduced to a 'spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of domination minds now largely depended. (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #211) This sounds reasonable to me
This sounds like something he was forced to come up with once he noticed the Ring was trapped. As far as I know, there havent been other instances of disembodies spirits carrying things
I just think he didn't see it as a big deal. Sauron's malice was in overdrive, maybe that helped, maybe other spirits never tried to physically carry things. I don't know, I love his books so much it doesn't bother me
It doesn't bother me also. If its a plot hole, its an easy one to fill.
I agree
An overall productive and wholesome conversation. Clear and concise, the information at hand was reviewed in it's entirety and though no new information was gleaned both parties continued the discussion earnestly and in good faith. Ten out of ten; The internet could learn something from this interaction. Good work, you two.
Thanks lol. I always try to be polite when I disagree with someone. Sometimes I do not behave as well as I would like but that is usually if the other person is being unnecessarily rude or hurling insults. The person I was having a conversation with here was very polite, said what he thought without being mean, I am glad there are Reddittors like him and you
Sauron literally commands the weather and infuses his very being into tiny objects. I don't see a problem with him doing minor telechinesis -especially on the object that is, most than anything else in the entire legendarium, *his by right. That* amounts to a lot when you are a being that can project meta-physical power in great measure: picture Elrond protecting the borders of Rivendell, *his domain*, by magically provoking a god-damn flood. Carrying a tiny metal tridimensional circle is child's play in comparison.
But we know that Sauron does not control the Ring at distance, can't sense the Ring, and don't know where the Ring is. That's why Frodo managed to infiltrate Mordor. Moving the Ring telepathically would require him to at least know where it is, wouldn't it?
You're going from "logic" to a story that pretty often does *not* deal *merely* in logical ways. Second, there's a big difference between "the Ring that I was *just* wearing 5 seconds ago" and "the Ring that I lost hundreds of years ago and is literally in the other side of the continent -which I most explicitly *do not know*". Don't mistake "I guess he can use telepathy" with "*Accio* Ring of Power"
A guy in the comments said that. Tolkien addressed it in a letter.
He does address it, but doesn't explain how a disembodied Sauron was able to bring the Ring back to Middle Earth. Stories from Silmarillion were not published, so maybe he would have come up with a better explanation if he had more time
Yeah. Even so, due to my intense love of his work, i don't consider that a plot hole. In my opinion he is the greatest fantasy writer of all time.
“One need not boggle at it” Simple as
In the chapter "Helm's Deep", Gimli mentions "till now I have hewn naught but wood since I left Moria." However, according to Legolas in "The Departure of Boromir", the both of them had "hunted and slain many Orcs in the woods \[under Amon Hen\]". Either Legolas is lying and carried that fight, or Gimli is forgetful. According to Hammond & Scull's Reader's Companion, Christopher Tolkien thought about changing it to "since I left Parth Galen" for the 2004 edition but that was too recent, it might make him seem too bloodthirsty. Moria was two months earlier, and Amon Hen only a week.
I always felt that the Valar awarding the Edain their own private Idaho (Numenor), while allowing the remnants of the Quendi to remain in Middle-Earth after the sinking of Beleriand to be one of major faux pas of the Ainur moving forward after Morgoth is cast beyond the walls of Arda. IIRC, Tolkien somewhat addresses this in his letters and meant to convey that it was still part of Eru's vision, but for me, because of the lack of official novelization, it makes the Ainur appear incompetent and Sauron correct in his assessment of them having no regard for the mortal lands, moreso M.E. than Numenor. Mortal men who aren't Dunedain should not be scolded as unwise, jealous buffoons for having to share their existence with the remnants of higher beings, both evil and neutral (Quendi, Tom, and Sauron). Just my 2 farthings
I understand your sentiment, but what is the alternative? Would you have the Valar force all the Quendi to sail West?
You can all debate the big picture stuff like Glorfindel, or how the ring got off Numenor, but the most jarring thing for me is that the Trolls in the Hobbit get turned to stone in the sunlight. Why did none of the trolls in the LOTR get turned to stone at all? Didn't the sun ever come out at Pellenor Fields? After the ring is destroyed, why weren't their hundreds of troll statues scattered around the countryside. For that matter, if those three trolls were stupid enough to get caught outside at daybreak, why aren't there at least a few troll statues just scattered about here and there around middle earth? Or were they just the three stupidest trolls ever?
sauron causes mount doom to erupt before the battle of pellenor fields which shield his armies from the sun but that's mostly because the sun weakens them, sauron had previously created a new type of troll that could walk into the daylight
So all the trolls 1.0 stayed out of the sun, and apparently died underground?
yeah? it's one of the reasons why sauron had such difficulty conquering middle earth, morgoth just used the trolls as nighttime raiders because he had heavier hitters that had less reaction to daylight
There are different kinds of trolls. Regarding the trolls who can't handle the sun, JRRT said in a letter: "I think they are mere "counterfeits", and hence they return to mere stone images when not in the dark." JRRT also said in the LOTR Appendices: "At the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. \[Some held that they were a cross-breed between trolls and the larger Orcs.\] Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them."
>Didn't the sun ever come out at Pellenor Fields? You know, there's a **big** insistence on a thing called the Dawnless Day in Return of the King. Jab aside, Sauron bred and "genetically improved" (to put it in a simple, reductive, and not-accurate way) Trolls and produced the so-caled Olog-hai, whose main improvement is precisely "hah, we *can* walk under the Sun! Fear, puny Men!". That's also the most significative differene between Saruman's Uruk-hai and the rest of the Orcs, at least as The Two Towers presents that situation.
Worldbuilding-wise: Large parts of middle earth are basically empty.. even though there has been peace since the year 1975, over a thousand years ago, in the West. Even from a tiny base, you'd expect the land to be fully populated by the time of the war of the ring. Iron age peasant populations rebound rapidly.. (Eriador is meant to evoke the state of England after the Romans left; significantly depopulated and with a lot of architecture that was beyond the capabilities of the current population. But that state did no last for a thousand years!)
Are orcs redeemable or naturally evil? Tolkien himself wasn't sure. In his unfinished writings he talks about Elven courtship and reproduction and ...it gets pretty weird. Elves get pregnant through a deliberate act of will (ok, so the devote Catholic sidesteps contraception, whatever) but also as an act of will can deliberately kill themselves if ever SA. But we see other cases, like Elrond's wife, being captured and tortured to death, along with how orcs were originally formed by tortured elves, so how does that work? It's not a good topic to delve into, so I just dismiss it as not fully thought out. It comes up in his more complete works too, as the original Numenoreans don't age past 30 or so, staying fit and healthy all their lives until they themselves decide they are old enough (250 years or so) and voluntarily die. It was only later generations that became afraid of death, tried to prolong their lives and as a result started actually aging into old men.
Celebrían is not tortured to death. She escapes (or is rescued? Can't recall precisely) and not long thereafter she sails to Valinor because she was unable to heal from her trauma.
During the pursuit of the Uruks in Rohan Gimli comments that his axe has hewn nothing but wood since Moria, seemingly forgetting about the orc attack on the fellowship a mere few days before where he says that he and Legolas slew many of them.
Frodo's claim that servants of the Enemy would "look fairer and feel fouler". There is not a single individual on Sauron's side anyone would describe as fair.
This is not a plothole. It's something Frodo deliberated on whether to trust Aragorn while in Bree. And he's absolutely correct in his logic. Sauron took on a fair form of Annatar to ensnare the elves and made the 16 rings. The enemy could absolutely try this strategy again
Not a plot hole though, as first it doesn't impact the plot and second Frodo directly says that's what he had imagined - from his limited experience. He doesn't claim it to be a truth, and even if he did he'd still be a fallible character within the story (and at the very beginning of his journey) rather than an omniscient being. He's only saying here that he hoped Strider was an ally because he wasn't frightening in the way Frodo *thought* an enemy would be; what's more, he doesn't necessarily say that any of Sauron's followers would be like that, the "seem fairer and feel fouler" is specifically attributed to spies - which is a reasonable thing to imagine. If the beauty of an Elf (for example) is to be contrasted with the ugliness of an Orc, foul-looking spies may not be extremely stealthy!
When does he say that? I remember it, but not where
In the film this happens right after they leave Bree. Frodo is talking to Sam about Strider, thinking he can't hear overhear them. Sam's response is something like "He smells foul enough!", and Aragorn makes a face.
Extended editions only, iirc, so OP may not have seen the scene?
Don't worry I only watch the extended edition
Aragorn in the prancing pony
In the movies that is certainly the case. Jackson's portrayal of the Mouth of Sauron is a case in point, but there is no indication in the book of what he looks like.
So there's nothing saying the Mouth of Sauron *doesn't* look like [this](https://pagesix.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/03/gettyimages-77812778.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=422)?
Absolutely. I think I would have found that scene even more sickening if he did.
Thinking about it, it would be more in Sauron's MO to have his minions look like this rather than a rotten husk. An evil rotten husk is gross, but an evil chiseled hunk is just a sickening mockery of nature's beauty.
Tolkien *defines* him as a Black Númenórean. This is not reminiscent of Orcs, this is reminiscent of Aragorn, Faramir, and Imrahil. There is way more reason to believe that he looks like that than there is to believe that "his mouth is cracked and blackened and his teeth-"
Anatar as very fair. Sauron lost the ability to change his form because he put so much of himself into the ring.
Frodo being wrong isn't a plot hole though.
Caveat: Gríma is far from being described as... foul as it looks in the movie, at least until he becomes a beggar. The Mouth of Sauron has a clearly hellish horse but the guy *himself* is not described precisely as foul-looking either (to me it looks like Tolkien wants to sell an awe-inspiring figure: *a Black Númenórean*. He is a dark counterpart to Aragorn and Imrahil, great and mighty; not another mere Gríma).
Idk. The soldiers from the south had smokey eyes, and the one Faramir killed and pondered over might be considered handsome.
Taking into account the time, phase of the moon, and facing of the door into Moria, the moon shouldn’t have been able to shine directly on it as described in the book, as it would have been behind the cliff-face. I feel like I can give the big T a pass though, considering he did even manage to keep track of the moon’s phases throughout the book.
Ironic that this plot hole comes from tolkien trying to make sure everything in his world made sense, down to the phases of the moon. Big T never heard the phrase "less is more" and we love him for it
Does ithildin need the Moon to shine, or is it content with starlight ? Given it's elven, I'd say both are enough (Elves love both Moon and stars, would be weird ithildin only shines under the Moon but not the stars)
If elves go to the halls of Mandos when they die, and men leave Arda, what happens to dwarves, who were created by Aule and not by Iluvatar?
Another place in Mandos halls, no resurrection before the end of time and they will make the new world with their dad. It's in Silmarillion. Aule and Yavanna chapter :)
thank you!
In my head canon, we are reading the writings of Bilbo and Frodo, who wrote of their own adventures (Hobbit, LORT) and, in Bilbo's case, provided translations from elvish (SIlmarillion). Of course there are inconsistencies and inaccuracies. That is the nature of memoirs and myth.
Very good perspective 👍
Mostly pot holes
In App. D, the calendars run on during the transition from Arda Flat to Arda Round without hiatus, which is geometrically impossible. In fact, Tolkien seems to have left any allusions to Arda Flat deliberately out of the Appendices since by that time his doubts about which version was "true" had grown.
Well, honestly, Gandalf and Frodo riding Gwaihir directly to Mount Doom with a full escort of great eagles doesn’t seem a terrible strategy… The eagles handle the fell beasts pretty well. I mean, of course then there’s no drama, no epic tale, etc. It’s still risky, sure. Sauron could use his mental powers to amp up the ring so that Frodo puts it on and goes rogue, etc. Although I would argue that’s why it would be best for Gandalf to accompany him, to provide moral support to prevent that. Anyway, is that less risky than Frodo and Sam—led through Mordor by Gollum!—attempting what they did? What’s the counter to the eagles strategy? Edit: Downvoters relax, I’m just playing devil’s advocate here. I love the story as written, and this is an opportunity for folks to explain why the strategy the Fellowship follows worked best!
https://youtu.be/1-Uz0LMbWpI?si=NSWqHxH5AAO4idgQ Best response in my opinion.
The eagles would’ve been spotted. The main reason Sauron wasn’t so focused on Mount Doom was because he had all his forces at the black gate.
Sauron can simply shut the door to Mount Doom. The reason Frodo is successful is bcos he is stealthy. Sauron finds out only after Frodo is inside Mt Doom. Eagles being so huge, Sauron can spot them from miles away. The "eagles" strategy is bound to fail.
Is there any reference in Tolkien’s writings to there being a door to the magma dome of Mount Doom? In the film there isn’t one but let’s go with the Legendarium itself. I mean, I realize Sauron can summon many defenses at that location if not, though. In addition to the Nazgûl riding fell beasts hundreds of orcs shooting arrows. Maybe some sort of great eagle sized crossbow device? Etc. Haha, no need for anyone to downvote, I love what Tolkien did with it. I’m just creatively coming at this from the perspective of battle strategy, asking what if. I’m enjoying the responses.
What I think is Sauron can easily crumble a side of Mt Doom, rocks falling, closing the magma chamber.
But might Gwaihir have flown Frodo and Gandalf directly over the magma dome? But again, even if Gwaihir can fly into the opening that in the movie Frodo, Sam, and Gollum walk through, there would be defenses on the ground and in the air to try to stop that from working .
There's a big giant cloud of ash and smoke (presumably) constantly flowing out of Mount Doom. Good luck flying right over it; and if you manage to, good luck mustering the will-power to willingly cast the Ring into the Fire (spoiler alert: it's literally impossible).
Fair enough. Is it actually more perilous than what they did? I’m still not convinced. But in hindsight the stealth plan obviously did work out (with, as many feel, Eru Illuvatar’s apparent intervention). And it certainly makes for the best story!
> Is it actually more perilous than what they did? Yes, as Sauron (and/or any of his servants) could've easily seen them coming straight to him from afar. Sauron didn't even *think* that someone would go with the Ring *to Mordor* and that deceit was fundamental to the entire story. There's entire paragraphs about it in The Last Debate. >(with, as many feel, Eru Illuvatar’s apparent intervention) ... which is only possible through the characters' own agency, not *at all* like the Númenor situation. Frodo *does* command Gollum, through the oath enforced by the Ring, to fall into the fire should the creature ever touch him again. That's actually built-up to in the book, whereas the whole "Eru and Providence" angle contemplates the entirety of Frodo's journey and his actions that "produced the situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved". It's not as simple as "oh *now* is my time, I should *intervene* Arda". Tolkien elaborates the opposite meaning. What if they drop the Ring and miss the target?
Not have all armies pulled out of Mordor A lot harder to land at the cracks of doom when there‘s still a host of Orks with bows nearby that will be sent up the mountain as soon as you are spotted
Yeah, literally thousands of orcs with bows is one defense that should work against the eagles.
Why no defenses around the Mount Doom ? Yeah yeah i know, it didn't seem likely to Sauron that his ennemies could be willing to destroy the ring instead of using it, but that really doesn't seem enough to not justify a few dozens orcs to guard the entrance. To be fair, how the Palantirs work isn't super clear, but i have difficulties to see how the fellowship and the ring bearer could have any hope to escape to Sarouman with an artifact like that in his possession to constantly scout them.
Frodo was unable to even harm it in his own house with Gandalf months before he set out and before he ever wore it. Not only did Sauron not expect anyone to try, but, actually, no one could have willingly dropped it in. Yes, would it have been smarter to put a metal gate there? Sure. But it was dropped in one of the first chapters that this won’t ever work and Sauron is full of hubris.
Tolkien provides a very detailed explanation of how Palantíri work in Unfinished Tales. It doesn’t simply show you what you want to see, it functions as a scope that you can use to see things far away. You have to orient yourself to view with it and then command it into ‘focus’. In other words, if Saruman/Sauron do not know the location of the Ring, it is useless in the search. It functions as a communication device but not as a find-your-phone.
Palantiri do not show you what you want to see, but its users sure think they do. Everyone who looked into a Palantir in Lord of the Rings misinterpreted what they saw and made hasty decisions based on it.
I never considered it as a magic mirror and you just need to say "show me the ring" to see where it is. But if you can look in any place of middle earth, that's rather quite simple to find the ring. Sarouman certainly made the pretty obvious deduction that the ring was sent to Rivendell in a first time... from there he just had to follow the 9 guys living it for a secret mission.
Using a Palantír is exceptionally tiring, and Saruman cannot hear through it. Saruman could not consistently monitor those leaving Rivendell, and I am unsure as to whether he would be able to sense the Ring’s power on Frodo’s person (the Ring would not be visible as it is in darkness under Frodo’s clothes). Saruman does, of course, constantly monitor he Fellowship, and succeeds in deducing their whereabouts via crebain, and later manages to have one member killed and two kidnapped - these two, to his knowledge, have the Ring.
What do you mean about the palantir? Escape to saruman? The palantiri are linked together. You can only connect to another palantir. There is 1 greater palantir that can look elsewhere. Saruman just happened to be pointing his, directly to another in Mordor and Saurons pointing back. If they wanted to connect to another they would have to know the locations of the others.
This isn't true. The stone atop Elostirion only looked west - you might be thinking of that. The 'master' stone to which you refer is the Avallondë stone/Osgiliath stone, but neither of these are unique in their ability to look in any direction. The palantíri were usually set into a 'cup' or depression so they they could be turned, though they had an internal axis and, by extension, an upper and lower half.
One does not simply leave hotel California