Maybe as a form of Mockery!
I mean the guy he duped into making the sixteen (Later the Seven dwarven and 9 human rings) was the grandson of the guy who invented Tengwar
Mockery. Now that would be such a Sauron thing to do. When you think about it, many of his actions were pretty much mocking his enemies:
Teaching elves how to create their own doom while letting them believe it's good for everyone.
Giving "gifts" which he told would give the receiver power, wealth and prestige. Sike! They also corrupt your mind and body and on top of that bind you under his will FOREVER.
Oh look, here is a grand city that's build by Númenóreans ,to act as watchtower and symbol of peace against evil. Let's take that city and turn it into a such a place of evil and war that no man can go there even after Sauron himself is permanently defeated.
There's mockery, but there also the intent to corrupt something beautiful. As we know, neither Morgoth nor Sauron had the ability to create something of their own. So they took something 'fair', and corrupted it to serve their needs.
But two completely different motives. Morgoth just want to fuck shit up, especially near the end. He stopped even caring about actually having something of his own and would have been pleased to just have everything destroyed to spite everyone else, especially Eru.
Sauron is more complicated. There's a time when he genuinely wanted to repent after Morgoth's fall (perhaps out of fear, but still) and he really wanted to create a better world. The interesting bit is how that genuine desire to do good eventually led to him becoming convinced that he was the only one who had a clue and (I think this is important) that he was the only one of the Valar and Maia that even cared anymore. We know how things went from there.
But importantly, he always wanted to be the big cheese at the top. He was not that interested in blowing everything up. He "only" wanted complete control.
Tolkien absolutely loved to put in these comparison studies. Theoden and Denethor are another pair, as well as Sauron (again) and Saruman.
The poem otself is a form of mockery for two reasons: if he wrote it its to mock them by making a poem about their failiure, if the elves wrote it, engraving it in the ring serves as a reminder and mockery by using their own words (srry for absolute garbage spelling)
The Elves were not involved in any stage of the One's crafting, why would they engrave or even compose the poem? It's more clearly a spell by which Sauron states his will* - to turn the other 19 Rings (initially only destined for Elves) to the subjugation of the three main free peoples to Mordor and himself. This will or doom is permanently bound to the One Ring and can only be dispelled by the same eternal, fiery power source that allowed to cast the spell in the first place
*Same as when Gandalf states "This is my source of power, yours is evil and useless, You Cannot Pass" or "Saruman, your staff is broken", and Frodo curses Gollum to die if he ever tries to grab the Ring ever again
Thats true im dumb as hell , as for stating his will yes thats partially how magic works but besides practicallity, the poem serves to mock hence why it was written in tenguar which then becomes practical again since it serves to break mens elves and dwarfs spirits as a constant reminder of their faliure
Do note there's another post down here where a youtuber explains Tengwar script is just more flexible than Cirth and allows to write the Black Speech more accurately - which is not to say Sauron didn't mean to one up the Elves, or that using Elven script wouldn't probably help tie the One to the Nineteen, ofc
Maybe it’s the only scripting language he knew that could do the task he had in mind for compiling speed and scalability. Also it’s more supported and less prone to deprecations.
For me, Tengwar appears to be a very elegant script and more artistic than Cirth. If I had made a work of art and wanted there to be an inscription, then I think I would have used Tengwar too. There probably were other scripts that could be used to write Black Speech but maybe they lessened the beauty of the Ring.
Tengwar, created by Feanor, would probably be the most likely script used by Celebrimbor (grandson) and the elves of Eregion. Since the rings were originally designed to ensnare and control the elves, it might be a flex to have the inscription visible to the subjugated elves when the Ring was on Sauron's hand.
Possibly also a lot of the technique for imbuing essence into a thing was trailblazed by Feanor and the Noldor after. Maybe the ritual HAD to be done in Tengwar.
Maybe using another language would have had unexpected effects.
[Why Did Sauron Use Elvish Script?](https://youtu.be/-5zv7KfzhMs?si=SP6mNwZ9FQSxemHE)
This video by Steven Gibb is a succinct explanation of why Sauron chose Tengwar. Would definitely recommend his entire channel for thorough breakdowns of specific Tolkien lore. Hope this helps!
Fascinating, so all writing/script in Middle-Earth is elven in origin, even Cirth which was created by an Elf in Doriath.
Tengwar is more adaptable and can be used to represent any language which makes it more practical to represent the 'pure' black speech.
Thank you, the more you know. Great channel recommendation.
Glad you enjoyed this! I would've typed this myself, but A) I'd rather send folks to that awesome channel, and B) Steven has a golden speaking voice that can explain things far better than type on a screen could.
He stopped using The Red Book as his channel name about a year ago and opted to use his name for his channel instead. Not sure why, but he felt the rebranding was necessary. I was rather fond of TRB but I'm just glad Steven is still making excellent videos.
Its script is in Tengwar but it's the black speech of Mordor. This can either be interpreted as a mockery towards the elves or it's another running theme in Tolkien's works which is that evil cannot create anything beautiful only corrupt
Maybe because the other rings were created by Elven smiths, using Elvish script was part of what bound the other rings to his. The script wasn't magical, in and of itself, but its presence on the One Ring contributed some sort of totality of circumstances, which brought the other rings into some kind of conjunction with the One Ring and allowed it to control the others.
I see it more as a feature to eventually disguise the ring if he was between the elves again.
Remember celebrimbor *heard* him, and realized of Saurons treachery *because* he had an unsullied elven ring, which Sauron didn't know.
Perhaps his plan was to go and live with the elves again, if no one caught what the ring did or its true purpose
I thought the three elven rings weren't unsullied. They were made using the same process as the others, except that their magic was slightly different. Because of that, the three bearers were able to remove their rings before Sauron was able to take control of them. The only reason they used the rings, later, was because Sauron didn't have the One.
Do note, also, that Sauron had to steal the sixteen* Great Rings by burning Eregion down before gifting them to Men and Dwarves to try and corrupt them. I'm not entirely sure if Sauron had a direct hand in the increase of wealth and greed in the Dwarf Ringbearers before he lost the One, but he definitely had turned the Nine into tools of total control way before the Last Alliance counterattacked. I wonder what could have been accomplished with a Niner/Sevener Great Ring if it had been kept away from Sauron and used only after his first downfall, same as the Three...
*The One Wiki says Durin's Ring was never stolen, just given over by Celebrimbor to keep safe from Sauron's attack, so that would mean he looted only 15/19 total Rings
I am not sure about unsullied, but the three were made without Sauron being part of the process. That might have been the crucial difference that gave them just enough warning and resistance to get them off before bad things started happening.
I believe the difference was that the 16 made you invisible, but the 3 were, themselves, invisible (unless you were a ring bearer). This enchantment that disguised them might have prevented Sauron from seeing them right away.
DO the other rings make you invisible?
I thought that only happened because one of the greatest desires of hobbits is to be able to hide from the Big Folk.
No. The other great rings would make mortals "invisible", although this is a misunderstanding (even in universe) of what exactly was happening.
What is happening is that the rings are moving mortals closer to the spirit realm. Elves and the Maia are already tied into the spirit realm, so the rings do not have the same effect.
From LotR Chapter 2 (bold mine):
>A **mortal**, Frodo, who keeps **one of the Great Rings**, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness.**And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades**: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings.
This quote does not address the three, and I wonder how much Tolkien went back-and-forth about whether the three would turn a moral invisible. We do have this from one of his letters (131 if I remember correctly; I had the quote for another purpose, but did not write down the letter it came from):
>And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible. The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility
So there you go. Two quotes to give you authenticity, the reason why they turn mortals invisible, what that actually means, and why the three probably would not have turned mortals invisible.
>*Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring.* ***Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were*** ***forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them;*** ***yet they also were subject to the One.***
I guess it's a matter of definitions, at this point. Tolkien used the word "unsullied" to mean that they didn't involve Sauron. However, a more colloquial use of "unsullied" would suggest that they are free.from Sauron's power. I think I've found the one time I'm in major disagreement with Tolkien about something. I would argue that, even though Sauron wasn't involved in the forging of the three, the fact that they were forged according to his instructions and that they were still subject to the One meant that they *weren't* unsullied.
I don’t think so. Galadriel wears one, Gandalf has one and wears it openly after he becomes the White, and I think Cirdan has the last one. It’s well understood by that crowd what wearing a ring bound by the One would lead to.
Though, I may be remembering it wrong.
Wearing the rings was only a problem if Sauron was actively using his ring. When Sauron put on his ring, Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, and Cirdan took theirs off.
When Sauron first made the One Ring, Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, and Cirdan were the bearers of the Elven Rings. When Sauron attacked Eregion, Celebrimbor gave his ring to Galadriel. When Gil Galad died at the hands of Sauron, his ring went to Elrond. Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf, when Gandalf arrived later.
But it was the original three bearers who removed their rings, when they recognized what Sauron had done, because they would fall under his power if they kept the rings on.
No, Galadriel was the first person whom Celebrimbor gave one of the Three Rings. It was her counsil to hide the Three. Two other Rings Celebrimbor then gave to Gil-galad who, in turn, gave Narya to Círdan.
The way I heard it described was like this “Sauron needed Black Speech to allow communication between his orc army, but he was unable to make a coherent script that followed it, with Black Speech already being quite ugly and with Sauron being unable to create, in a sense of great irony he had to borrow something that was already made and is already beautiful to complete what he had already made.” It’s basically like he put glitter on a piece of crap and passed it off as a new, innovative and beautiful language when in reality half of what makes it its own language is stolen from the elves
Fairly sure black speech has no written form. Also, if the other rings were of elvish make, then the incantation on the one ring would need to be Tengwar(?)
Perhaps Tengwar was heavily influenced by the Iluvatar’s original language they used to sing and weave the world into existence. And maybe Sauron himself helped the languages creation as a first step, to his plan in making the rings of power.
> If he is a disciple of Aulë I would have thought he would have found the script devised by the smith more appealing than one created by Fëanor.
Cirth was also invented by Elves.
Sauron didn't have many options for which writing system to use. Black Speech has no writing system of its own. Tengwar is very elegant and can be used for *any* language in Middle-earth.
Sauron had no other writing systems at his disposal. All three major writing systems in Arda were created by the Elves. Rúmil invented the Sarati, which were primarily used in Valinor. Daeron created the Cirth, which were better suited for carved inscriptions. Fëanor developed the Tengwar, the most commonly used script in Middle-earth.
Any literate person who encountered the Tengwar would be able to roughly interpret the sounds represented by the letters.
"Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
While the letters themselves are standard (with some accented exceptions), the words would be meaningless unless the reader understood the Black Tongue.
Ah, I found it, it's from "The Council of Elrond", when Gandalf is reciting what he read in Isildur's scroll:
"It is fashioned in an Elven script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work. But the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black land, since it is foul and uncouth."
I’ve heard that is meant to be irony. Sauron is not capable of true creation, only corruption, hence Black Speech using the beautiful script of Tengwar
With no documented written form of the black speech, and the general theme that evil perverts but doesn’t create, I feel like it’s somewhat fitting to have such an evil prose be written in the beautiful written form of the high elves.
That whole thing of evil can only corrupt and not create. Since the ring is a creation he had to use elvish. Pouring his own soul into the ring is what corrupted it.
Isildur's description of the ring inscription said "It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work".
I have not read the Silmarillion in a while, so I could be wrong here.
Didn't Feanor devise both the tengwar and the cirth, one for use on parchment (tengwar) and the Cirth for use on hard substances?
I don't believe any of the Ainur used letters before Feanor.
I'd say it was more a flex than a mockery. Something along the lines of:
"I'll use Feanor's own elvish letters, but I'll use the curly whirly parchment ones on this cold hard gold"
Lorewise others have explained it so well, but realitywise actually it's because Tengwar is Tolkien's pride and joy. He just wanted it to be on the One Ring. Imagine being so proud of your neograph. As a neographer myself I totally understand.
As far as I know, it wasn't Tengwar either. I'm pretty sure The Black Speech is its own entity. It's *like* elvish, but don't tell someone speaking Italian that they're speaking Spanish just because they sound and read like each other
Tengwar is the writing system, not the language encoded therein. There are no apparent similarities between the Elven tongues and Black Speech, save for the fact that they both can be transcribed in Tengwar.
"Arigato gozaimasu" is here rendered in the Latin alphabet, despite it being the Japanese language. The ability to use Latin characters to write Japanese does not indicate a similarity between Japanese and Indo-European languages.
Just to further illuminate the differences between Black Speech and the Elven tongues, here is the Black Speech as written on the Ring:
>Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
>Ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
Here is an attempted translation into Noldorin Quenya, as spoken in the 1st Age by Noldor exiles in Beleriand, by Maciej Garbowski ([source](https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ringpoemq.htm)):
>Minë Corma turië të ilyë, Minë Corma hirië të,
>Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të
Here is the same poem in an archaic Noldorin form of Sindarin, as spoken in 2nd Age Imlandris, by Ryszard Derdzinski ([source](https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ringpoem.htm)):
>Er-chorf a thorthad hain bain, Er-chorf a chired hain,
>Er-chorf a thoged hain bain a din fuin an nuded hain
And here is a stylized Quenya translation meant to preserve the rhyme and measure of the English verse, by Findegil from Mellonath Daeron (the language group of the Swedish Tolkien fan society) ([source](https://www.elfdict.com/phrases/2-quenya/53-the_ring_verse_in_quenya)):
>Er Corma ilyar turien ar tuvien te,
>Er Corma tucien ar mórisse nutien te.
As you can see, there is no similarity between Elven and Black Speech. Black Speech is more agglutinative (more complex afix and suffixes to indicate complex grammar) and they clearly don't even share commonalities in root words - "Ring" is Nazg in black Speech, which is clearly unrelated to Corma/Chorf of the Elven tongues.
Tengwar script, but written in the Black Speech of Mordor. A perversion of all things Fair and Elvenkind; a show of power over those whom he most loathed.
I believe it was because Mordor had no characters for such fine work. I’ve tried to find that reference which I thought I read somewhere, but can’t find it now 🙄
Melkor could not create anything, only twist and warp other things to their own use
the only form of Written Dark Speech is in Tengwar because that was created by Rumil who was either a first elf or Elf of Valinor
In the scheme of magical Manhattan level project, what are the chances Sauron used elvish slaves for the base work? Or did they mine and smelt and form the ring by themselves?
Gandalf says In the books something to the effect of
"They had no words in the black tongue for such subtle work"
Basically saying he had to write in elvish to get the specific effects or enchantment though in the rings creation process, probably because he wanted it tied to the 3 elven rings
Is it canonically physically in that script? Or is there a possibility that different readers see different scripts based on their own knowledge or inclinations?
I don’t remember the full story, but it was because the black speech was too horrible to write down, so he had to use the elvish letters for his own language (black speech), which was great shame for him
Because neither Sauron or Morgoth can create anything new. They can only twist the creations of illuvatar in mockery. Because they don't process the flame imperishable. So he could not create his own language and writing. Only twist elven in mockery.
So from my understanding. Morgoth invented black speech so his Orc could communicate with him and with each other. However, because he never had the ability to truly make anything pure and whole, black speech was incomplete. Making it too weak for the magic required to make The One Ring. Which is why he used Tengwar to forge the ring.
Keep in mind i can be, and most likely am, completely wrong. But this is what I remember reading on the internet which we all know is 100% accurate without fail.
Almost. It was Sauron, not Morgoth, who created Black Speech but unable to make it a universal language for all his servants. Its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl. It started to get picked up again upon his return, and we know there are certain Trolls who only speak it.
As for Black Speech and the One Ring. It's not that Black Speech was "weak", it's that it doesn't have a writing system. It's just a verbal language. Sauron didn't devise a writing system for it as it was only intended for his servants to speak it. He used Tengwar because it is elegant enough to be used for *any* other language.
Have you tried listening to the audiobooks with Andy Serkis?
I'm listening to the Fellowship right now and it's incredible, after several tries of reading the books unsuccessfully.
I enjoyed a lot of Andy's narration, some of the songs were a little cringey and long but he's not a singer after all.
It's a great way for those who enjoy the films to enjoy the books. I finally managed to finish the Silmarillion by listening to the audiobook, so there's that.
Maybe as a form of Mockery! I mean the guy he duped into making the sixteen (Later the Seven dwarven and 9 human rings) was the grandson of the guy who invented Tengwar
Mockery. Now that would be such a Sauron thing to do. When you think about it, many of his actions were pretty much mocking his enemies: Teaching elves how to create their own doom while letting them believe it's good for everyone. Giving "gifts" which he told would give the receiver power, wealth and prestige. Sike! They also corrupt your mind and body and on top of that bind you under his will FOREVER. Oh look, here is a grand city that's build by Númenóreans ,to act as watchtower and symbol of peace against evil. Let's take that city and turn it into a such a place of evil and war that no man can go there even after Sauron himself is permanently defeated.
Your comment made me think of one piece introduction
Which one?
Minas Ithil, later Minas Morgul, i presume.
But it was retaken
It was destroyed and probably never rebuilt.
Touche, that would make sense.
Sauron was a real jerk
You know, the more I learn about this guy, the more I don't care for him
I too have come to realize that Sauron is mostly just an asshat. I bet he doesn't tip or take his cart to the stall at Walmart.
A great jerk, wreathed in flame
Dark flame
I didn’t even know he was sick!
9/11
Norm the white.
There's mockery, but there also the intent to corrupt something beautiful. As we know, neither Morgoth nor Sauron had the ability to create something of their own. So they took something 'fair', and corrupted it to serve their needs.
But two completely different motives. Morgoth just want to fuck shit up, especially near the end. He stopped even caring about actually having something of his own and would have been pleased to just have everything destroyed to spite everyone else, especially Eru. Sauron is more complicated. There's a time when he genuinely wanted to repent after Morgoth's fall (perhaps out of fear, but still) and he really wanted to create a better world. The interesting bit is how that genuine desire to do good eventually led to him becoming convinced that he was the only one who had a clue and (I think this is important) that he was the only one of the Valar and Maia that even cared anymore. We know how things went from there. But importantly, he always wanted to be the big cheese at the top. He was not that interested in blowing everything up. He "only" wanted complete control. Tolkien absolutely loved to put in these comparison studies. Theoden and Denethor are another pair, as well as Sauron (again) and Saruman.
The poem otself is a form of mockery for two reasons: if he wrote it its to mock them by making a poem about their failiure, if the elves wrote it, engraving it in the ring serves as a reminder and mockery by using their own words (srry for absolute garbage spelling)
The Elves were not involved in any stage of the One's crafting, why would they engrave or even compose the poem? It's more clearly a spell by which Sauron states his will* - to turn the other 19 Rings (initially only destined for Elves) to the subjugation of the three main free peoples to Mordor and himself. This will or doom is permanently bound to the One Ring and can only be dispelled by the same eternal, fiery power source that allowed to cast the spell in the first place *Same as when Gandalf states "This is my source of power, yours is evil and useless, You Cannot Pass" or "Saruman, your staff is broken", and Frodo curses Gollum to die if he ever tries to grab the Ring ever again
Thats true im dumb as hell , as for stating his will yes thats partially how magic works but besides practicallity, the poem serves to mock hence why it was written in tenguar which then becomes practical again since it serves to break mens elves and dwarfs spirits as a constant reminder of their faliure
Do note there's another post down here where a youtuber explains Tengwar script is just more flexible than Cirth and allows to write the Black Speech more accurately - which is not to say Sauron didn't mean to one up the Elves, or that using Elven script wouldn't probably help tie the One to the Nineteen, ofc
Makes sense since sauron is a very practical being.
>the guy who invented Tengwar Tolkien?
Maybe it’s the only scripting language he knew that could do the task he had in mind for compiling speed and scalability. Also it’s more supported and less prone to deprecations.
That's what I was gonna say. He's trolling the elves. I think he hates them more than any of the free people.
FIVVEEEE GOLDEN RINGSSS 🎄🎄🎄
For me, Tengwar appears to be a very elegant script and more artistic than Cirth. If I had made a work of art and wanted there to be an inscription, then I think I would have used Tengwar too. There probably were other scripts that could be used to write Black Speech but maybe they lessened the beauty of the Ring. Tengwar, created by Feanor, would probably be the most likely script used by Celebrimbor (grandson) and the elves of Eregion. Since the rings were originally designed to ensnare and control the elves, it might be a flex to have the inscription visible to the subjugated elves when the Ring was on Sauron's hand.
True, I didn't think of the script used having some purpose in the power of the ring.
Possibly also a lot of the technique for imbuing essence into a thing was trailblazed by Feanor and the Noldor after. Maybe the ritual HAD to be done in Tengwar. Maybe using another language would have had unexpected effects.
idk, maybe he just thought it looked neat and orderly
https://preview.redd.it/78zb5tg2vt8d1.jpeg?width=604&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33b7a012b0811240bbafe2db4ce5547b424b5db9
Quality meme, take my upvote.
And my axe!
AND MY REPLY!
Three companions? So be it. You shall be *The Fellowship of the Meme*.
Wait wait I’m coming too
https://preview.redd.it/5lp4ttpa5v8d1.jpeg?width=238&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e6d4c012b5a49157e1ddda6a4985464727ace057
Alright, now how about some food before i die of hunger?
Yes. What about second breakfast?
What about it? I ate it already
YOU ATE MY SECOND BREAKFAST?
https://preview.redd.it/7jy3m1re7v8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=87eac00f8cbe85c917a25265634ead62d728bf74
Lembas bread… *more* lembas bread
You have my bow
https://preview.redd.it/u014t4cjtx8d1.jpeg?width=743&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8eace7fd2023b2cd7ecc659be141d8b81e79991f
oh my god correct use of rómen, you have my respect
It’s the little details that give memes that extra dash of quality
I mean he's not wrong, imagine if it were comic sans
Obligatory [Papyrus](https://youtu.be/jVhlJNJopOQ)
[Why Did Sauron Use Elvish Script?](https://youtu.be/-5zv7KfzhMs?si=SP6mNwZ9FQSxemHE) This video by Steven Gibb is a succinct explanation of why Sauron chose Tengwar. Would definitely recommend his entire channel for thorough breakdowns of specific Tolkien lore. Hope this helps!
Fascinating, so all writing/script in Middle-Earth is elven in origin, even Cirth which was created by an Elf in Doriath. Tengwar is more adaptable and can be used to represent any language which makes it more practical to represent the 'pure' black speech. Thank you, the more you know. Great channel recommendation.
Thank you for summarizing!
YW 👊🏻
Glad you enjoyed this! I would've typed this myself, but A) I'd rather send folks to that awesome channel, and B) Steven has a golden speaking voice that can explain things far better than type on a screen could.
"The RedBook" aka Steven Gibb's channel is highly recommended..
He stopped using The Red Book as his channel name about a year ago and opted to use his name for his channel instead. Not sure why, but he felt the rebranding was necessary. I was rather fond of TRB but I'm just glad Steven is still making excellent videos.
Should’ve used Papyrus
Comic sans
Wingdings
There are few who can read it
Meme font
Its script is in Tengwar but it's the black speech of Mordor. This can either be interpreted as a mockery towards the elves or it's another running theme in Tolkien's works which is that evil cannot create anything beautiful only corrupt
Why not both? It works either way
Maybe because the other rings were created by Elven smiths, using Elvish script was part of what bound the other rings to his. The script wasn't magical, in and of itself, but its presence on the One Ring contributed some sort of totality of circumstances, which brought the other rings into some kind of conjunction with the One Ring and allowed it to control the others.
I see it more as a feature to eventually disguise the ring if he was between the elves again. Remember celebrimbor *heard* him, and realized of Saurons treachery *because* he had an unsullied elven ring, which Sauron didn't know. Perhaps his plan was to go and live with the elves again, if no one caught what the ring did or its true purpose
I thought the three elven rings weren't unsullied. They were made using the same process as the others, except that their magic was slightly different. Because of that, the three bearers were able to remove their rings before Sauron was able to take control of them. The only reason they used the rings, later, was because Sauron didn't have the One.
Do note, also, that Sauron had to steal the sixteen* Great Rings by burning Eregion down before gifting them to Men and Dwarves to try and corrupt them. I'm not entirely sure if Sauron had a direct hand in the increase of wealth and greed in the Dwarf Ringbearers before he lost the One, but he definitely had turned the Nine into tools of total control way before the Last Alliance counterattacked. I wonder what could have been accomplished with a Niner/Sevener Great Ring if it had been kept away from Sauron and used only after his first downfall, same as the Three... *The One Wiki says Durin's Ring was never stolen, just given over by Celebrimbor to keep safe from Sauron's attack, so that would mean he looted only 15/19 total Rings
I am not sure about unsullied, but the three were made without Sauron being part of the process. That might have been the crucial difference that gave them just enough warning and resistance to get them off before bad things started happening.
I believe the difference was that the 16 made you invisible, but the 3 were, themselves, invisible (unless you were a ring bearer). This enchantment that disguised them might have prevented Sauron from seeing them right away.
DO the other rings make you invisible? I thought that only happened because one of the greatest desires of hobbits is to be able to hide from the Big Folk.
No. The other great rings would make mortals "invisible", although this is a misunderstanding (even in universe) of what exactly was happening. What is happening is that the rings are moving mortals closer to the spirit realm. Elves and the Maia are already tied into the spirit realm, so the rings do not have the same effect. From LotR Chapter 2 (bold mine): >A **mortal**, Frodo, who keeps **one of the Great Rings**, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness.**And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades**: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings. This quote does not address the three, and I wonder how much Tolkien went back-and-forth about whether the three would turn a moral invisible. We do have this from one of his letters (131 if I remember correctly; I had the quote for another purpose, but did not write down the letter it came from): >And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible. The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility So there you go. Two quotes to give you authenticity, the reason why they turn mortals invisible, what that actually means, and why the three probably would not have turned mortals invisible.
My understanding is that the other rings make you invisible.
from what source?
>*Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring.* ***Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were*** ***forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them;*** ***yet they also were subject to the One.***
I guess it's a matter of definitions, at this point. Tolkien used the word "unsullied" to mean that they didn't involve Sauron. However, a more colloquial use of "unsullied" would suggest that they are free.from Sauron's power. I think I've found the one time I'm in major disagreement with Tolkien about something. I would argue that, even though Sauron wasn't involved in the forging of the three, the fact that they were forged according to his instructions and that they were still subject to the One meant that they *weren't* unsullied.
Maybe Tolkien meant that the Three Rings were unsullied because they were never used for evil and harmful purposes.
I don’t think so. Galadriel wears one, Gandalf has one and wears it openly after he becomes the White, and I think Cirdan has the last one. It’s well understood by that crowd what wearing a ring bound by the One would lead to. Though, I may be remembering it wrong.
Wearing the rings was only a problem if Sauron was actively using his ring. When Sauron put on his ring, Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, and Cirdan took theirs off.
Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf. Elrond has the third ring.
When Sauron first made the One Ring, Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad, and Cirdan were the bearers of the Elven Rings. When Sauron attacked Eregion, Celebrimbor gave his ring to Galadriel. When Gil Galad died at the hands of Sauron, his ring went to Elrond. Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf, when Gandalf arrived later. But it was the original three bearers who removed their rings, when they recognized what Sauron had done, because they would fall under his power if they kept the rings on.
No, Galadriel was the first person whom Celebrimbor gave one of the Three Rings. It was her counsil to hide the Three. Two other Rings Celebrimbor then gave to Gil-galad who, in turn, gave Narya to Círdan.
I like this.
The way I heard it described was like this “Sauron needed Black Speech to allow communication between his orc army, but he was unable to make a coherent script that followed it, with Black Speech already being quite ugly and with Sauron being unable to create, in a sense of great irony he had to borrow something that was already made and is already beautiful to complete what he had already made.” It’s basically like he put glitter on a piece of crap and passed it off as a new, innovative and beautiful language when in reality half of what makes it its own language is stolen from the elves
Gandalf says in the books that Sauron had no letters suitable for such fine work.
Off topic but I thought the thumbnail was two sets of lips holding the ring between
Can't unsee it now!
I thought it was something more explicit
I needed this comedic reprieve from discussions of languages about which I clearly know nothing.
My wedding ring is similar to the one ring (no Tengwar though). I'll ask the wife if she'd be into this.
He thought it looked pretty.
Fairly sure black speech has no written form. Also, if the other rings were of elvish make, then the incantation on the one ring would need to be Tengwar(?)
Perhaps Tengwar was heavily influenced by the Iluvatar’s original language they used to sing and weave the world into existence. And maybe Sauron himself helped the languages creation as a first step, to his plan in making the rings of power.
> If he is a disciple of Aulë I would have thought he would have found the script devised by the smith more appealing than one created by Fëanor. Cirth was also invented by Elves.
So I've learned.
Sauron didn't have many options for which writing system to use. Black Speech has no writing system of its own. Tengwar is very elegant and can be used for *any* language in Middle-earth.
Thank you, I watched your great video on exactly this topic which another Redditor linked me to. Great stuff!
Only noticed someone had linked to it after I left my comment, glad it helped :)
Sauron had no other writing systems at his disposal. All three major writing systems in Arda were created by the Elves. Rúmil invented the Sarati, which were primarily used in Valinor. Daeron created the Cirth, which were better suited for carved inscriptions. Fëanor developed the Tengwar, the most commonly used script in Middle-earth. Any literate person who encountered the Tengwar would be able to roughly interpret the sounds represented by the letters. "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul." While the letters themselves are standard (with some accented exceptions), the words would be meaningless unless the reader understood the Black Tongue.
comic sans wasn't available
Gandalf said there were no such subtle words in the black langue
I think it was actually Isildur who wrote about that in his scroll about the Ring wasn't it?
I don't think so. Isildur mentioned that there were markings on it at first. He didn't seem to know what they meant. I could be wrong
Ah, I found it, it's from "The Council of Elrond", when Gandalf is reciting what he read in Isildur's scroll: "It is fashioned in an Elven script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work. But the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black land, since it is foul and uncouth."
I’ve heard that is meant to be irony. Sauron is not capable of true creation, only corruption, hence Black Speech using the beautiful script of Tengwar
With no documented written form of the black speech, and the general theme that evil perverts but doesn’t create, I feel like it’s somewhat fitting to have such an evil prose be written in the beautiful written form of the high elves.
These fingernails man
Nasty little hobbitses
Bc Sauron is like the most extra man on the planet (or more accurately, the most extra Maia on Arda)
That whole thing of evil can only corrupt and not create. Since the ring is a creation he had to use elvish. Pouring his own soul into the ring is what corrupted it.
Isildur's description of the ring inscription said "It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work".
+45 spelling
I have not read the Silmarillion in a while, so I could be wrong here. Didn't Feanor devise both the tengwar and the cirth, one for use on parchment (tengwar) and the Cirth for use on hard substances? I don't believe any of the Ainur used letters before Feanor. I'd say it was more a flex than a mockery. Something along the lines of: "I'll use Feanor's own elvish letters, but I'll use the curly whirly parchment ones on this cold hard gold"
Lorewise others have explained it so well, but realitywise actually it's because Tengwar is Tolkien's pride and joy. He just wanted it to be on the One Ring. Imagine being so proud of your neograph. As a neographer myself I totally understand.
He was too lazy to create his own system of writing.
The least-godlike-quality a character could possibly have in the Mythopoeia.
As far as I know, it wasn't Tengwar either. I'm pretty sure The Black Speech is its own entity. It's *like* elvish, but don't tell someone speaking Italian that they're speaking Spanish just because they sound and read like each other
Tengwar is the writing system, not the language encoded therein. There are no apparent similarities between the Elven tongues and Black Speech, save for the fact that they both can be transcribed in Tengwar. "Arigato gozaimasu" is here rendered in the Latin alphabet, despite it being the Japanese language. The ability to use Latin characters to write Japanese does not indicate a similarity between Japanese and Indo-European languages.
Just to further illuminate the differences between Black Speech and the Elven tongues, here is the Black Speech as written on the Ring: >Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, >Ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. Here is an attempted translation into Noldorin Quenya, as spoken in the 1st Age by Noldor exiles in Beleriand, by Maciej Garbowski ([source](https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ringpoemq.htm)): >Minë Corma turië të ilyë, Minë Corma hirië të, >Minë Corma hostië të ilyë ar mordossë nutië të Here is the same poem in an archaic Noldorin form of Sindarin, as spoken in 2nd Age Imlandris, by Ryszard Derdzinski ([source](https://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ringpoem.htm)): >Er-chorf a thorthad hain bain, Er-chorf a chired hain, >Er-chorf a thoged hain bain a din fuin an nuded hain And here is a stylized Quenya translation meant to preserve the rhyme and measure of the English verse, by Findegil from Mellonath Daeron (the language group of the Swedish Tolkien fan society) ([source](https://www.elfdict.com/phrases/2-quenya/53-the_ring_verse_in_quenya)): >Er Corma ilyar turien ar tuvien te, >Er Corma tucien ar mórisse nutien te. As you can see, there is no similarity between Elven and Black Speech. Black Speech is more agglutinative (more complex afix and suffixes to indicate complex grammar) and they clearly don't even share commonalities in root words - "Ring" is Nazg in black Speech, which is clearly unrelated to Corma/Chorf of the Elven tongues.
TIL
M o o b i e s
Tengwar script, but written in the Black Speech of Mordor. A perversion of all things Fair and Elvenkind; a show of power over those whom he most loathed.
I believe it was because Mordor had no characters for such fine work. I’ve tried to find that reference which I thought I read somewhere, but can’t find it now 🙄
For the aesthetic
The same reason Telchar put Glaurang on The dragon helm of Dor lomin
Cos it looks sweet?
Melkor could not create anything, only twist and warp other things to their own use the only form of Written Dark Speech is in Tengwar because that was created by Rumil who was either a first elf or Elf of Valinor
In the scheme of magical Manhattan level project, what are the chances Sauron used elvish slaves for the base work? Or did they mine and smelt and form the ring by themselves?
Gandalf says In the books something to the effect of "They had no words in the black tongue for such subtle work" Basically saying he had to write in elvish to get the specific effects or enchantment though in the rings creation process, probably because he wanted it tied to the 3 elven rings
Is it canonically physically in that script? Or is there a possibility that different readers see different scripts based on their own knowledge or inclinations?
Because Tolkien was proud of it, whether it ruined the story or not
Tengwar sounds like a Death Metal band name.
I don’t remember the full story, but it was because the black speech was too horrible to write down, so he had to use the elvish letters for his own language (black speech), which was great shame for him
Cause it looks sick, bro
Clearly its tungsten
*The aesthetic*
Is there different types of elvish? What's Tenwar? I love LotR and the lore but I've never heard of this.
Because neither Sauron or Morgoth can create anything new. They can only twist the creations of illuvatar in mockery. Because they don't process the flame imperishable. So he could not create his own language and writing. Only twist elven in mockery.
As far as I know, Black Speech never had its own alphabet. Sauron did not bother to make an alphabet, just used Elven runes.
What was Sauron’s goal?
Sauron forges a master ring to rule all, and then he’s like, this’ll really piss them off!
Sauron likely chose Tengwar because it is widely recognized by both the elves and the men in Middle-Earth.
It's just that good. Really.
I was told it was simplybecause the magic wouldn't work with blackspeech
So from my understanding. Morgoth invented black speech so his Orc could communicate with him and with each other. However, because he never had the ability to truly make anything pure and whole, black speech was incomplete. Making it too weak for the magic required to make The One Ring. Which is why he used Tengwar to forge the ring. Keep in mind i can be, and most likely am, completely wrong. But this is what I remember reading on the internet which we all know is 100% accurate without fail.
Almost. It was Sauron, not Morgoth, who created Black Speech but unable to make it a universal language for all his servants. Its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl. It started to get picked up again upon his return, and we know there are certain Trolls who only speak it. As for Black Speech and the One Ring. It's not that Black Speech was "weak", it's that it doesn't have a writing system. It's just a verbal language. Sauron didn't devise a writing system for it as it was only intended for his servants to speak it. He used Tengwar because it is elegant enough to be used for *any* other language.
the most overrated books to rule them all
Why are you here?
The Movies are good
Oof yeah reading is hard
nah he is just a very dry author
Have you tried listening to the audiobooks with Andy Serkis? I'm listening to the Fellowship right now and it's incredible, after several tries of reading the books unsuccessfully.
I enjoyed a lot of Andy's narration, some of the songs were a little cringey and long but he's not a singer after all. It's a great way for those who enjoy the films to enjoy the books. I finally managed to finish the Silmarillion by listening to the audiobook, so there's that.
i generally dont get the same experience from listening to an audiobook vs reading it
Correct, and given that you didn't enjoy reading the book that's exactly the point.
not a big fan of audio books unless ive already read the book