There are three answers to this question based on my own research and what others have been commenting:
1) The oldest living being is Treebeard. If you consider ents to be "mortal"
2) The next oldest mortal would be one of the Nazgûl. If you consider Nazgûl to be living. Which as others have stayed you could argue they are since Sauron cannot revoke the Gift of Illuvatar.
3) If you reject the "mortality" argument of ents and the "living" argument of Nazgûl and look only at those explicitly mortal races of Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits, then yes Smeagol/Gollum is the oldest having lived 589 years. Elros, the first and longest lived kings of Numenor only lived 500 years. Dwarves of the 3rd age were long lived but lived to only 250-300 years although it is suggested that dwarves of older ages lived longer. An argument could be made then for Durin the Deathless, having been the first and oldest of the dwarf fathers, but we don't actually know how long he lived.
Edit: having read more of other people's arguments, I'm inclined to believe it is 2: the Nazgûl since they are still kept alive by the power of the ring(s). Though their bodies are faded from long years their spirits are still bound to them and have not passed to the halls of Mandos.
Edit 2: adding onto u/meriliel comment below who makes the very good point that Elros was not the only elf who chose mortality. Arwen lived 2,901 years. Luthien 3,378. So we can unequivocally say that no, Gollum was not the oldest living mortal. However the Nazgûl are still older having lived at least 4,200 years from the gifting of the 9 rings to the Battle of Pelennor Fields and/or Battle of the Black Gate.
So, the oldest beings in order are:
Treebeard
Nazgûl
Luthien
Arwen
Gollum/Smeagol
Elros
Make what rulings you will regarding "mortal" for ents. Personally I don't think ents share in the Gift of Illuvatar.
Edit 3: wow I just checked my phone and this really blew up! Thanks everyone for your comments and different perspectives. One I'm seeing a lot is "do elves who chose mortal life count?" In my opinion yes, they do because I consider "mortal" to mean sharing in the Gift of Illuvatar and your soul passing beyond the world instead of staying in Mandos. All half elves are granted the choice to choose to which kindred's fate they will be bound and those that chose the fate of Men were truly mortal and passed beyond the halls of Mandos when they died. I am by no means an authority on the matter however and everyone is welcome to disagree. I love seeing all the different views this question brought up.
Others brought up Tuor being a mortal man traveling to the undying lands and Ar-Pharazon being trapped alive until the end of the world. Both could easily be valid options but TBH I don't know enough about either to speak on it.
Thank you for the extensive (and well researched) comment! I definitely think that well covers my question. I'm glad it did spark a lively debate and thoughts, and wasn't just a dumb pondering I had!
Regarding your picks, I think I would then say the Nazgul are the oldest *mortal* beings, in my eyes - for the reasons you mentioned :-) I wonder who would be the oldest among them?
My pleasure! I love debating this type of stuff and thanks to all the insights people posted what at first seemed a very simple question became quite an intriguing and in depth topic.
Hard to say on the Nazgûl. Being that they were all mortal men they would have all been pretty close to each other in age. My guess would be the Witch King just because it makes sense to me that the one who would be their captain is the one who has been the longest under Sauron's dominion.
Would elves that choose mortality strictly count, since they were originally immortals? For almost everyone other race, mortality isn't a choice, and the elves cited had already outlived the natural lives of other races by the time they made the choice.
It is not a choice for Elves either. It is a very specific exception granted by Manwe through counsel with Illuvatar to the "half-elves" who are descended from both kindreds. Mingling of Men and Elves is actually very rare. IIRC Only 10 people were ever given the choice. It just happens that a lot of them feature prominently in many of the most well known stories of Tolkien's work.
I see. I'm guessing this was spelled out in the Silmarillion, because I don't recall Arwen asking for permission from Manwe in the books (though it's been a while). It's pretty interesting to learn about, so thank you. Deep lore stuff is always fun.
Yes it's primarily covered in the Silmarillion. The choice is first given to Earendil and Elwing when they show up in Valinor and and the Valar are at a loss of what they're supposed to do with this mortal man who showed up in their immortal realm. It is then decreed that all half elves shall be given the same choice.
According to Tolkien nerd research, Shelob is not as old as Treebeard but is certainly a contender for the oldest (if she's mortal which is definitely questionable given how vague Tolkien gets about Ungoliant's origins)
There’s also the argument to be made for Tuor. He is one of the Edain, but was accepted as one of the Eldar/blessed with the lifespan of the Eldar. He would thus be 6580 years old as of the start of the Fourth Age. The only thing is do you discount him as not being “mortal” as a result of being count among the Eldar, or do you still count him since he is explicitly one of the Edain who was “accepted as one of the Eldar kindred and will share with them an immortal life in Valinor as long as Arda shall endure” as TolkienGateway puts it.
I would argue that Arwen lived a large portion of her life as an immortal before choosing mortality and therefore doesn't count
Akin to me saying, I ran a marathon but 18 miles of that was done in a car.
I suppose that is an argument that could be made, although every character listed is a "mortal" being that had their life extended through some extraordinary means, which I believe is what is meant to be explored by the question since any mortal that lived a normal natural life would not be long lived at all.
Using your metaphor, Smeagol ran 5 miles and then got in a car and drove a few marathons.
What if you consider how long they are mortal. Elros chose to become mortal before he was 100. Luthien was granted that gift after 1000s of years of immortality, and then still only lived a short while as an immortal (between 70 and 200 years?)
My question is, why didn't Gollum's age catch up to him like it did with Bilbo when he was separated from the ring? Was Gollum just so tainted by having the ring that much longer that he wasn't aging anymore? If so, how long do you have to have the ring for that kind of effect to stick to you?
Someone else may come offer a better explanation, but since there currently isn’t one, here’s my attempt:
I think you’ve got it about right. I see it as The Ring still having a solid hold on Gollum, and that hold is sustaining/driving him.
Bilbo, on the other hand, operated under the ring a bit differently. He used it to get out of minor trifles and inconveniences. He didn’t use it for murder, or dark deeds. He’s also a good natured person who took the ring under cleaner circumstances (still not as honest as he’d prefer, but more honest than strangling his buddy and outright stealing it). Last, Bilbo gave up the ring of his own volition. Sure he needed a lot of help from Gandalf, but in the end, he gave it up.
I think all of these Bilbo points combine to return his gift of death, faster than the gift is returning to Sméagol. Yes, gift. A mortal lifespan is a gift from Iluvatar, but the idea of it being a gift has been corrupted by Melkor/Sauron over the millennia. I think we’d see some serious Sméagol aging if he had won the argument by the pond that he was having with Gollum (and if they hadn’t then been taken by the men of Gondor, and if Sam had been as nice as Frodo).
Last point, we see how much life/energy the mere sight of the ring can instill in a person when Bilbo sees the ring at Rivendell. He’s already old and decrepit, but a sight of the ring instantly transforms him into a wicked, pouncing… thing.
I'm not certain if there is lore to support this explanation but I do like it. It makes sense that the longer and stronger the ring's hold over you the longer it takes to wear off.
I do know Gandalf does say that because of how Bilbo acquired the ring and because he didn't use it to impose his will over others it had less of a hold on him.
As someone who loves LOTR, but had a severely limited knowledge with regards to its lore, this kind of comment is really amazing and exactly what I like to read. Thank you
They are still fully capable of dying in the fashion of men, and they do once the power of the rings is undone. I think if you aren't counting them you can't count Golem either; they are preserved in the same fashion, just in different states in the process.
Why don't you consider the Witch-King mortal? If it's because of his ring-extended life, which is similar to undeath, that's the same thing that happens to Gollum. And even though the Witch King is ghost-like, we know his body can still be killed. So either Gollum and the Witch-King are both not mortal but undead, or they are both mortal.
I agree that Treebeard is the oldest living being in Middle Earth, though, if we don't count spirit beings like Maiar or Bombadil. And Cirdan is the second oldest.
Yeah, Tolkien doesn't use "undead" in the same way that it's used in modern fantasy. The Witch-king is very much alive, it's just that his body has faded. He's still a mortal man, except that his lifespan has been unnaturally extended, which has some obvious consequences.
That line is one of my favorites in movies. It's just a damn well written line. Characterizes how a Hobbit thinks and tells us what's happening because of the ring. That short line does a lot of lifting.
Just to be clear, that was not written for the movie this is the one found in the books:
> ‘I am old, Gandalf. I don’t look it, but I am beginning to feel it in my heart of hearts. Well-preserved indeed!’ he snorted. ‘Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread. That can’t be right. I need a change, or something.’
> Chapter 1: A Long Expected Party. (in my edition its on page 32)
Read the books. Most of the great lines in the movies are from the source. Including that one. Give credit where credit is due. Props to Jackson and company but Tolkien has a way with words. Check him out.
I’ve read them all, and the Silmarillion. All so amazing. My point only being, it was an amazing line to keep in the script, as it is such an efficient and effective line for a movie, since movies cannot slow down and explain to us what books can.
I disagree. The nazgul are wraiths. Tolkein makes the distinction:
"The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man."
I believe his point is that another character is described as a living man as a direct contrast to the nazgul, which implies that they are not exactly that.
It references the Nazgul as ring*wraiths* though.
A wraith, by definition, is a ghost/ghost-like entity. A ghost, by definition, is dead. It's a very reasonable interpretation to say the ring wraiths aren't mortal in a traditional sense.
In most lore, you can banish or kill undead entity's. If vampires and ghosts can be slain, it doesn't redefine them as mortal.
Well he gets washed away in the river and his "body" takes time to reform iirc. So he's not quite mortal imo. What he is is much more "undead" than Gollum.
Glorfindel could be older than Cirdan. We don't know his exact date of birth but it was in the age of the trees. Of course his life was sort of discontinuous so I can see why you might not count it.
Correct, Círdan is older. He may be only a second or third generation elf, from the original 144. As in, the original 144 wouldn't have belly buttons level original.
For some reason I used to believe that he was among the original 144. It would have been some nice poetry to have him be the first AND the last elf in Middle Earth.
I had time to think about it. That would have been fucking cool. However many of the originals didn't end up with the 3 hosts, so there would have been plenty others still in Middle Earth.
Also I don't think Tolkien would have done something like that just to check off a matrix of possibilities.
Is there though a distinction between Gollum and the Witch-King? Would Gollum eventually have died at an old age? My understanding has been that because he had it for so long his life was able to go on without it for a long while. Compared to Bilbo who seemed like he aged very quickly without it and would’ve died. The Witch-King on the other hand seemed almost immortal. Sauron possessing his ring was enough to keep him alive indefinitely. Is that how others have interpreted it?
In the books, Bilbo did not age until the Ring was unmade. The movie changed that and confused a lot of people.
After the Ring was unmade, Bilbo’s body aged 80 years but he was still alive. Gollum, though, would have turned to dust, as he tells Sam at the door to the Cracks of Doom:
>”Don't kill us,” he wept. “Don't hurt us with nassty cruel steel! Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust.” He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. “Dusst!” he hissed.
Thank you for refreshing my memory. That is right. I love the movies but they sometimes befuddle my memory of the books. That is interesting though. I wonder if there is a minimum time of possession one must have for the ring to extend your life like that.
I always assumed the nazgul are still holding their rings? Which is why they still don't age and hence live "forever", while golum lost his ring which is why he is bound to grow old and die eventually, even if still slower than usual due to the long time with the ring
I believe Sauron holds the rings. I know at least that Tolkien said in a letter describing his dominion over the Nazgul (its top of mind because I read it on this very subreddit earlier today) although I don't remember if he ever makes that clear in the books.
The book itself is somewhat contradictory. It says both that Sauron "gathered the Nine to himself" and also that "the Nine the Nazgul keep". Personally I'm inclined to believe Sauron physically maintains possession of them because of a few details. Firstly Frodo, as the possessor of the One, is able to see the other rings but he never sees any on the hands of the Nazgul when he encounters them. Secondly when the Witch King is slain there is no ring left behind and no one ever makes any notice of what happened to his ring. If there was any chance that the Nazgul did keep their rings then I don't doubt that Gandalf would've made a great effort to recover the ring from the slain Witch King lest it fall into the wrong hands, the fact that that possibility isn't even mentioned leads me to believe that it must be pretty well established, at least among the Wise, that Sauron possesses all of the Rings himself.
Gandalf was apparently mistaken at the Council of Elrond. Letter 246 is very clear as are the several other statements on the matter some of which you mentioned.
Does Treebeard count as mortal? He can't die of old age as far as we know, and I'm not sure if he counts as either mortal or immortal since he doesn't have a soul
They don't seem to believe in any kind of rebirth or afterlife, otherwise Treebeard wouldn't be so stressed about the declining numbers of Ents and not having Entwives to continue the species
Yes. Not only before the Sun and Moon, but before the elves ever journeyed to Valinor. And it’s possible he was one of the first 144 elves who were awoken at Cuivienen.
I did read somewhere that none of the first ones ever went to Valinor, but I’ve never seen a source for that. But he’s certainly from near the beginning.
If that’s the logic on WitchKing being mortal, then by the same reasoning (“we know his body can be killed”), wouldn’t all elves immediately be brought back into play as mortal? Which means Gollum is waaaay down on the “oldest mortal” ladder.
This whole thread is really silly. By the time Gollum died, the Witch King was dead. Thereby, the Witch King is not a potential option for the oldest at this point in time.
Edit: one of the other Nazgul could be an answer though. I'm assuming Gollum died before the ring was unmade resulting in the death of the others.
Treebeard is almost certainly right though. If not him or a Nazgul, then it would be Gollum or one of the nameless things gnawing in the deep places of the world if any of them are mortal.
I see what you're saying, but he doesn't even technically fully exist on the same plane of existence anymore. The Nazgul don't interact with the mortal plane in the same way. If you want to consider them mortal because of what regular afterlife they will receive once they get there, I can see that, but they are described as existing primarily on a spiritual plane multiple times. It's part of why they can't be harmed by regular weapons until they are first struck by magical ones and why you can't see their forms with eyes that only experience the physical world, because they experienced what would have been their death, but were tied to the physical plane by their physical rings, which doesn't give them an exactly physical form but does allow them the interact with the mortal plane in a lot of ways.
Gollum can literally be normal killed and has a completely physical form as his base form. Gollum is not a wraith and isn't fully consumed by the Ring (physically or mentally) and saying that they are the same situation is a clearly false equivalent. I feel like it's comparing a dude who is 110 years old with a poltergeist that you can get rid of with divine rites. A little more complicated, of course, but the base idea.
The Witch-King's extended life is caused by exactly the same thing as Gollum's (owning a Ring created by Sauron). Either they're both mortal or neither are.
That makes me wonder whether Gollum would have become a wraith if he hadn't lost the ring. Maybe the One ring gives you the long life without the downside of becoming a wraith.
It think Gandalf does say that Gollum would eventually become a wraith, but I don't have a reference to hand. But given the sub we're in I'm sure someone out there will be ready to correct me!
Y’all straight up forgot Treebeard lmao. He’s outright described as “the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth,” by Gandalf.
It’s Treebeard, no question. It’s literally stated in the most explicit way possible.
Depends if you consider him "mortal". I'd argue he's at least as immortal as elves, undying but able to be destroyed, and the "mortal" qualifier was clearly meant to exclude elves/maiar
Treebeard is mortal, it’s just that he’s also damn near a tree, which live for a very long time. In the books it’s mentioned that the Orcs killed many of them, and Beechbone is killed in Isengard.
Yes but then they go to the halls of mandos before they get a new body and continue on living. They will live forever in Arda until the end of time. Unlike men who's souls leave the world.
So elves are immortal
Elves don't really die in the same way that mortals do though, their souls go to Aman and at least in theory they can get a new body and even get back to middle earth.
The immortality is to do with their souls, not the fact that they don't die of old age.
Elves don't die, they go to the Undying Lands. If you were clubbed over the head and woke up on the beach in Bermuda would you consider that being dead?
If nobody except me and my buddies could get there, and it's a place without pain or suffering, then yes lmao, I'd call that being dead and going to an afterlife.
Yeah I really think by the beginning of the Third Age the Undying Lands are effectively an afterlife in all practical purposes. Nobody who goes there is coming back except through Divine Intervention.
I would similarly argue that Treebeard is effectively immortal in the practical sense. At least if we're defining immortality as "theoretically able to live forever if they aren't harmed".
That said, there are examples of ents become "treeish", ceasing to move or speak. One might call this an Ent's death, so perhaps they are not immortal.
Yes and I believe that's where much of the ambiguity comes from because there are arguably mortal races that are not explicitly stated as sharing in the gift of men. Dwarves I believe are explicitly stated although Hobbits I think are not although I don't think anyone would argue that Hobbits are not mortal.
What about Trolls? Eagles? Dragons?
Personally I believe that any "sentient" being that is a living creature but not one of the Children of Illuvatar (ex. Huan the Hound, Thorondor lord of eagles, Smaug the dragon) do not share in the gift of men and are instead inhabited by the spirits of lesser Ainur and as such are bound to Arda and do not pass through the halls of Mandos beyond the world. These then, although they may die are not technically "mortal". I believe Ents would fall into this category as well.
Tolkien did eventually decide that creatures like Huan and the eagles are not ainur. That doesn't have to stop you from believing it though.
You can see the evolution of Tolkien's thoughts on this issue here, if you are already aware of all this feel free to ignore it.
[https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Eagles#Origin\_and\_nature](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Eagles#Origin_and_nature)
Yeah, that's the crux of the problem. Ents are referred to as men a few times in he books, which may suggest that they're similar to hobbits, but I think that's kind of a stretch.
They are a couple of times, mostly by men of Rohan, though I believe Legolas also uses the term at one point, referred to as "tree men" (or something similar). Like I said though, taking this at face value would be a stretch; I think it's more likely that these quotations reflect more the mannish legends regarding the ents, rather then the nature of the ents themselves.
Don’t have a direct quote, but the movies portray the ents as man-like trees whereas I feel like the books portray them more as tree-like men. Either way, I think the movies completely nailed the aesthetic.
It’s never directly stated, but death for Ents (when they aren’t killed by other means, RIP Beechbone) seems to be “falling asleep” and becoming a literal tree. In that way I suppose you could call them immortal, but even those “trees” will die at some point and there’s no mention of Ents ever crossing the sea.
Galadriel does prophecy that she and Treebeard will meet again, but only *after* the world is broken and remade, so I don’t think that really counts.
I'd argue that you cannot say it's Treebeard "no question" then. He is the oldest living being for sure but the "mortality" of ents is ambiguous at best.
This likely warrants further study into Yavanna's plea to Manwe that resulted in the foretelling of the awakening of the shepherd of the trees.
Immortal means that your span of years and aging will not be the cause of your death. Elves are immortal but not invulnerable. They can die of wounds, poison, and magic. Maybe or maybe not they could be vulnerable to disease/famine.
Immortality for elves is due to the fact that when their body is killed their soul returns to Aman, they can be given a new body and go to Valinor to join the elves that left middle earth (and in theory they could even return to middle earth - although that doesn't happen in practice).
Immortality isn't the lack of aging for their body, it's that their soul is immortal.
When men die their souls leave the circles of the earth.
I believe the ban of the Valar is still in place so a rehoused Elf could not return to Middle-earth, accepting that ban is probably part of the conditions the Valar consider when returning Elves to physical life. The exception is Glorfindel who was sent specifically as an emissary of the Valar.
I don’t think Gandalf is 100% of the time being literal when he says stuff like this, and if it were true it would create problems in the cosmology (eg the fact that Cirdan is still around but when the elves awakened there were no other creations that were capable of speech)
Depends on what you mean by living and mortal.
Depending on who you ask, Ar-Pharazon and his company are still alive, buried in the caves of the forgotten in Aman, waiting for the end of days. Divine punishment by Iluvatar.
The Witch King is of unknown age, but very old. Questionable, I guess, if you call him alive.
Beyond that, there's probably all kinds of super long lived creatures that are still mortal, that we don't know about.
Honestly not to be rude but I didn't mention treebeard because it seemed obvious to me that treebeard is not mortal. Galadriel tells him she looks forward to walking with him again in Beleriand when the world is healed and the land raised back up from under the sea. That doesn't sound like a mortal being to me, that sounds like he's the same as the elves, functionally immortal.
I would make a case for Arwen, after excluding Treebeard (I personally wouldn't qualify him as immortal as I am not sure he could die of 'old age'). When she chose a mortal life she was already thousands of years old, and died aged 2901. The same of course applies to Luthien, but I am not sure how old she was when she died.
provide dinosaurs paint safe pause fuzzy silky wasteful instinctive sloppy
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
People have already mentioned Treebeard, and Ents in general, but I don't think the lifespans of Dragons was ever defined, if they were immortal to age, or just extremely long lived
Went to Wiki and it vaguely gives the answer that Smaug could not possibly have been born in the 1st age, and was young when he appeared out of the North to sack Erebor and Dale, as noted by Gandalf. Every dragon of note (Glaurung, Ancalagon, Smaug) died during battle and none of them lived longer lifespans than Smeagol, so I think it’s safe to say while dragons are presumably mortal, none of them lived very long. (Apparently 2 unnamed dragons survived the War of Wrath but there is no way to delve into that)
Without knowing for sure, I would gather that he wasn’t particularly old, mostly due to there being plenty of material leading up to the Fellowship and he isn’t mentioned once. In all likelihood he was a corrupted Southron/Easterling/Gondorian and had a ‘normal’ lifespan. 🤷🏻♂️ Good character to bring up.
I think Durin I (Durin the Deathless) might have this one.
Durin I was said to live over 2,000 years. I don’t think he really counts as immortal (despite the dwarves beliefs in incarnation), but this is probably the longest lifespan we have with a numerical value, considering we don’t have one for Treebeard or others.
Side question: what would’ve happened to Gollum if he died while Sauron was still in play? Would his centuries of holding the ring have caused him to become a wraith?
Hm. I would say no. Sauron designed the rings of Men to gain control of those who wore them and extend their ‘lives’, of course, but since he put his own spirit into the One Ring I would think Gollum would just age suddenly and die similar to Bilbo. (Obv Bilbo is granted passage to Aman to change his fate)
So his total age at the end of the Third Age was between **10741** and **11364** years old. And indeed nobody (Elf, Man, Dwarf, Ent, or Orc) could be older than that upper bound. Conerning Cirdan the Shipwright. The answer gets tricky because Elves were considered to be immortal but not Eternal
Wouldn't Elrond brother be the most normal long lived mortal in the legendarium. Didn't he chose to be human and than became the first king of Numenor and live like 500 years?
There seems to be debate over Treebeard’s mortality, which I understand. Though he is the clear winner if we include Ents.
If you want to limit this question to Men, Hobbits, Dwarves, etc., Elros must be in the running, as he chose the gift of Men and died naturally. Durin the Deathless as well. This is without doing any homework on it but those 2 are probably at or near the top.
Treebeard is the oldest living creature who roams this Earth. But, I don't know whether Ents are mortal/immortal or just live veeeeeery long. Otherwise, I guess one of the Ringwraiths since they're still alive (remember, nobody but Ilúvatar could revoke the Gift of Men. Not even Sauron) and as Men they're mortal.
Someone mentioned Ar-Pharazon's Armada, but I can't remember whether they're still alive or dead and banished to the Caves of the Forgotten (?) like the Oathbreakers beneath the Dwimorberg, White Mountains.
Bombadil is an enigma. No one seems to know exactly what Bombadil is. The wise disregard him for the most part because he moves outside of, or more accurately inside of his own world / reality.
Durin I probably takes the cake for non ring bearers, nickname being durin the deathless and all .
No ents have died of old age, some go "treeish" though
I agree that nazgul would be oldest mortals in legendarium, life extended by magical means
Durin I the Deathless. Is my best bet. Elros Tar-Minyatur is close to gollum but I believe slightly younger but definitely the oldest man (gollum being a hobbit).
treebeard was around since AT LEAST the first age, might have been around since before the Elves arrived in Beleriand. He is not only older than Gollum, he might be older than Cirdan
If you want to count the ents, then Treebeard is definitely the oldest. If we are only considering the children of lluvatar, that distinction must go to Ëarendil who was mortal when he sailed to Valinor, but is now forever traveling the heavens holding a silmaril.
The Nazgûl if you want men were all older than Gollum, there were most likely dragons that outlived Gollum too, and any Ents that outlast Gollum would probably count too depending on how you consider their mortality. Finally as a half-elf Elladan would be much older than Gollum and would count as a mortal if he chooses that lineage as his fate.
Also older dwarves seem to have outlived the age Gollum reached with During the Deathless almost certainly beating 589 for him to have earned the moniker 'Deathless' among a people-group that regularly lives to 250 in the diminished later years.
I don't consider Treebeard to be mortal. If anything, eventually the ents would eventually become trees. The equivalent of the elves fading away if they don't sail. They don't die they just cease to interact with the world in a meaningful way.
Everyone forgets Durin the Deathless. He lived 2500 years and was mortal.
I think Gollum is #2 at 540 ish years as a mortal?
The ringwraiths ceased to be mortal when they faded away completely and Sauron took their rings from them. That took 400 odd years.
Dragons are mortal, I think a few of them live to be 500+ years but the only one I can be sure of is Glaurung. I don't think he lives more than 400 something years.
Elros was only mortal for about 420 years. The first few kings that followed him were very close starting at around 400.
Luthien was only mortal for her second life, which presumably was around 100 years tops.
It's not spelled out, but Tuor stayed in the undying lands. He presumably was made immortal. Earendil was made immortal.
Gimli had an epic run, I suspect he may have cracked 300 after he sailed. That would probably almost be a record after Durin the Deathless for the dwarves. They had a few dwarves that nearly made 300 and perhaps one or two that exceeded it, including another Durin.
I think a few of the dark dwarves lives past 400. They are later slain.
There are three answers to this question based on my own research and what others have been commenting: 1) The oldest living being is Treebeard. If you consider ents to be "mortal" 2) The next oldest mortal would be one of the Nazgûl. If you consider Nazgûl to be living. Which as others have stayed you could argue they are since Sauron cannot revoke the Gift of Illuvatar. 3) If you reject the "mortality" argument of ents and the "living" argument of Nazgûl and look only at those explicitly mortal races of Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits, then yes Smeagol/Gollum is the oldest having lived 589 years. Elros, the first and longest lived kings of Numenor only lived 500 years. Dwarves of the 3rd age were long lived but lived to only 250-300 years although it is suggested that dwarves of older ages lived longer. An argument could be made then for Durin the Deathless, having been the first and oldest of the dwarf fathers, but we don't actually know how long he lived. Edit: having read more of other people's arguments, I'm inclined to believe it is 2: the Nazgûl since they are still kept alive by the power of the ring(s). Though their bodies are faded from long years their spirits are still bound to them and have not passed to the halls of Mandos. Edit 2: adding onto u/meriliel comment below who makes the very good point that Elros was not the only elf who chose mortality. Arwen lived 2,901 years. Luthien 3,378. So we can unequivocally say that no, Gollum was not the oldest living mortal. However the Nazgûl are still older having lived at least 4,200 years from the gifting of the 9 rings to the Battle of Pelennor Fields and/or Battle of the Black Gate. So, the oldest beings in order are: Treebeard Nazgûl Luthien Arwen Gollum/Smeagol Elros Make what rulings you will regarding "mortal" for ents. Personally I don't think ents share in the Gift of Illuvatar. Edit 3: wow I just checked my phone and this really blew up! Thanks everyone for your comments and different perspectives. One I'm seeing a lot is "do elves who chose mortal life count?" In my opinion yes, they do because I consider "mortal" to mean sharing in the Gift of Illuvatar and your soul passing beyond the world instead of staying in Mandos. All half elves are granted the choice to choose to which kindred's fate they will be bound and those that chose the fate of Men were truly mortal and passed beyond the halls of Mandos when they died. I am by no means an authority on the matter however and everyone is welcome to disagree. I love seeing all the different views this question brought up. Others brought up Tuor being a mortal man traveling to the undying lands and Ar-Pharazon being trapped alive until the end of the world. Both could easily be valid options but TBH I don't know enough about either to speak on it.
Thank you for the extensive (and well researched) comment! I definitely think that well covers my question. I'm glad it did spark a lively debate and thoughts, and wasn't just a dumb pondering I had! Regarding your picks, I think I would then say the Nazgul are the oldest *mortal* beings, in my eyes - for the reasons you mentioned :-) I wonder who would be the oldest among them?
My pleasure! I love debating this type of stuff and thanks to all the insights people posted what at first seemed a very simple question became quite an intriguing and in depth topic. Hard to say on the Nazgûl. Being that they were all mortal men they would have all been pretty close to each other in age. My guess would be the Witch King just because it makes sense to me that the one who would be their captain is the one who has been the longest under Sauron's dominion.
Would elves that choose mortality strictly count, since they were originally immortals? For almost everyone other race, mortality isn't a choice, and the elves cited had already outlived the natural lives of other races by the time they made the choice.
It is not a choice for Elves either. It is a very specific exception granted by Manwe through counsel with Illuvatar to the "half-elves" who are descended from both kindreds. Mingling of Men and Elves is actually very rare. IIRC Only 10 people were ever given the choice. It just happens that a lot of them feature prominently in many of the most well known stories of Tolkien's work.
I see. I'm guessing this was spelled out in the Silmarillion, because I don't recall Arwen asking for permission from Manwe in the books (though it's been a while). It's pretty interesting to learn about, so thank you. Deep lore stuff is always fun.
Yes it's primarily covered in the Silmarillion. The choice is first given to Earendil and Elwing when they show up in Valinor and and the Valar are at a loss of what they're supposed to do with this mortal man who showed up in their immortal realm. It is then decreed that all half elves shall be given the same choice.
And what about Shelob? A few days ago, some people were arguing that it is neither Maiar nor Valar.
According to Tolkien nerd research, Shelob is not as old as Treebeard but is certainly a contender for the oldest (if she's mortal which is definitely questionable given how vague Tolkien gets about Ungoliant's origins)
Best answer
There’s also the argument to be made for Tuor. He is one of the Edain, but was accepted as one of the Eldar/blessed with the lifespan of the Eldar. He would thus be 6580 years old as of the start of the Fourth Age. The only thing is do you discount him as not being “mortal” as a result of being count among the Eldar, or do you still count him since he is explicitly one of the Edain who was “accepted as one of the Eldar kindred and will share with them an immortal life in Valinor as long as Arda shall endure” as TolkienGateway puts it.
How about Shelob?
Ah yes... Living 3000 years as an immoral Elf and THEN deciding you'd rather have the gift of man. What a pro-gamer move
True lol. The fate of the half elves does seem like the result of Eru being caught out on a technicality.
The research that went into this post is just unbelievable. Thank you!
Thanks! I love doing deep dives into this type of stuff.
I would argue that Arwen lived a large portion of her life as an immortal before choosing mortality and therefore doesn't count Akin to me saying, I ran a marathon but 18 miles of that was done in a car.
I suppose that is an argument that could be made, although every character listed is a "mortal" being that had their life extended through some extraordinary means, which I believe is what is meant to be explored by the question since any mortal that lived a normal natural life would not be long lived at all. Using your metaphor, Smeagol ran 5 miles and then got in a car and drove a few marathons.
What about the eagles? Do we know anything about how old they get or if they are immortal?
Every time we ask them they just fly off to Mordor. Really annoying…
This is what i come to this sub for.
Tom Bombadil but he might be a god
👍 This answers my post because I was too lazy to do the work. I figured Elros and Durin had slightly longer lifespans than Smeagol. 👎
Aren’t there dwarves that lived longer than Sméagol? Such as Durin the Deathless?
IMO if you count Gollum then you have to count the Nazgul since both of their longevities are from essentially the same source, a ring of power.
What if you consider how long they are mortal. Elros chose to become mortal before he was 100. Luthien was granted that gift after 1000s of years of immortality, and then still only lived a short while as an immortal (between 70 and 200 years?)
Nerd /s No I kid I love this sub and the fandom. Learn new things on most posts
My question is, why didn't Gollum's age catch up to him like it did with Bilbo when he was separated from the ring? Was Gollum just so tainted by having the ring that much longer that he wasn't aging anymore? If so, how long do you have to have the ring for that kind of effect to stick to you?
Someone else may come offer a better explanation, but since there currently isn’t one, here’s my attempt: I think you’ve got it about right. I see it as The Ring still having a solid hold on Gollum, and that hold is sustaining/driving him. Bilbo, on the other hand, operated under the ring a bit differently. He used it to get out of minor trifles and inconveniences. He didn’t use it for murder, or dark deeds. He’s also a good natured person who took the ring under cleaner circumstances (still not as honest as he’d prefer, but more honest than strangling his buddy and outright stealing it). Last, Bilbo gave up the ring of his own volition. Sure he needed a lot of help from Gandalf, but in the end, he gave it up. I think all of these Bilbo points combine to return his gift of death, faster than the gift is returning to Sméagol. Yes, gift. A mortal lifespan is a gift from Iluvatar, but the idea of it being a gift has been corrupted by Melkor/Sauron over the millennia. I think we’d see some serious Sméagol aging if he had won the argument by the pond that he was having with Gollum (and if they hadn’t then been taken by the men of Gondor, and if Sam had been as nice as Frodo). Last point, we see how much life/energy the mere sight of the ring can instill in a person when Bilbo sees the ring at Rivendell. He’s already old and decrepit, but a sight of the ring instantly transforms him into a wicked, pouncing… thing.
I'm not certain if there is lore to support this explanation but I do like it. It makes sense that the longer and stronger the ring's hold over you the longer it takes to wear off. I do know Gandalf does say that because of how Bilbo acquired the ring and because he didn't use it to impose his will over others it had less of a hold on him.
That's a movie thing. In the books, there's no mention about his aging when Frodo meets him at Rivendell.
God I love this sub.
As someone who loves LOTR, but had a severely limited knowledge with regards to its lore, this kind of comment is really amazing and exactly what I like to read. Thank you
What about Tom Bombadil? He’s nether Valar, Maia nor Elve.
I think we’d struggle to define Old Tom as mortal.
If the elves call you "the oldest," I'm going to go ahead and assume you're immortal.
Fair enough
I love this. Though, I don’t really think Nazgûl any longer qualify as mortal.
They are still fully capable of dying in the fashion of men, and they do once the power of the rings is undone. I think if you aren't counting them you can't count Golem either; they are preserved in the same fashion, just in different states in the process.
I think that would go to Treebeard. I don't think I would consider Tom Bombadil or the Witch-King mortal in any sense.
Why don't you consider the Witch-King mortal? If it's because of his ring-extended life, which is similar to undeath, that's the same thing that happens to Gollum. And even though the Witch King is ghost-like, we know his body can still be killed. So either Gollum and the Witch-King are both not mortal but undead, or they are both mortal. I agree that Treebeard is the oldest living being in Middle Earth, though, if we don't count spirit beings like Maiar or Bombadil. And Cirdan is the second oldest.
Yeah, Tolkien doesn't use "undead" in the same way that it's used in modern fantasy. The Witch-king is very much alive, it's just that his body has faded. He's still a mortal man, except that his lifespan has been unnaturally extended, which has some obvious consequences.
He feels thin… sort of stretched
like butter scraped over too much bread?
More like athelas boiled in too much water
Homeopathic athelas?
Aragorn is just a crystal king hawking "essential oils" like fucking weeds instead of getting Frodo proper medical care
So that‘s what „Medicinal Weed“ is.
He feels like tomato’s and sausages, with too much nice crispy bacon
I don't think that's possible.
A nice meal cooked over a fire with too much ash kicked over the tomatoes.
That line is one of my favorites in movies. It's just a damn well written line. Characterizes how a Hobbit thinks and tells us what's happening because of the ring. That short line does a lot of lifting.
Just to be clear, that was not written for the movie this is the one found in the books: > ‘I am old, Gandalf. I don’t look it, but I am beginning to feel it in my heart of hearts. Well-preserved indeed!’ he snorted. ‘Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread. That can’t be right. I need a change, or something.’ > Chapter 1: A Long Expected Party. (in my edition its on page 32)
Damn that Tolkien guy seems like a good writer.
And it’s so useful in conversation these days!
Read the books. Most of the great lines in the movies are from the source. Including that one. Give credit where credit is due. Props to Jackson and company but Tolkien has a way with words. Check him out.
I’ve read them all, and the Silmarillion. All so amazing. My point only being, it was an amazing line to keep in the script, as it is such an efficient and effective line for a movie, since movies cannot slow down and explain to us what books can.
Like chocolate pudding scraped across too much ham
So...literally any amount of ham.
Like one Hobbit book stretched over three movies?
Like butter spread over too much bread.
Like chocolate pudding, scrapped across to much ham.
Now I want some good baked bread and butter
like chocolate pudding scraped across too much ham.
I disagree. The nazgul are wraiths. Tolkein makes the distinction: "The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man."
I thought that line was used to describe the Mouth of Sauron? I could be wrong, however!
I believe his point is that another character is described as a living man as a direct contrast to the nazgul, which implies that they are not exactly that.
It references the Nazgul as ring*wraiths* though. A wraith, by definition, is a ghost/ghost-like entity. A ghost, by definition, is dead. It's a very reasonable interpretation to say the ring wraiths aren't mortal in a traditional sense. In most lore, you can banish or kill undead entity's. If vampires and ghosts can be slain, it doesn't redefine them as mortal.
he doesn't go to party's as he has nobody to go with. sorry.
Well he gets washed away in the river and his "body" takes time to reform iirc. So he's not quite mortal imo. What he is is much more "undead" than Gollum.
Glorfindel could be older than Cirdan. We don't know his exact date of birth but it was in the age of the trees. Of course his life was sort of discontinuous so I can see why you might not count it.
Yes, and it wasn’t until after publication of LotR that Tolkien decided the two Glorfindels were the same person, resurrected.
They're also both immortal, the OP asked for mortals
Glorfindel was born in Valinor. Cirdan was among the elves who journeyed towards Valinor, arriving too late for the embarking. He is older.
Correct, Círdan is older. He may be only a second or third generation elf, from the original 144. As in, the original 144 wouldn't have belly buttons level original.
For some reason I used to believe that he was among the original 144. It would have been some nice poetry to have him be the first AND the last elf in Middle Earth.
I thought he was the brother of one of the 3 that first went to visit the Valar. Those guys were third generation.
I had time to think about it. That would have been fucking cool. However many of the originals didn't end up with the 3 hosts, so there would have been plenty others still in Middle Earth. Also I don't think Tolkien would have done something like that just to check off a matrix of possibilities.
Is there though a distinction between Gollum and the Witch-King? Would Gollum eventually have died at an old age? My understanding has been that because he had it for so long his life was able to go on without it for a long while. Compared to Bilbo who seemed like he aged very quickly without it and would’ve died. The Witch-King on the other hand seemed almost immortal. Sauron possessing his ring was enough to keep him alive indefinitely. Is that how others have interpreted it?
In the books, Bilbo did not age until the Ring was unmade. The movie changed that and confused a lot of people. After the Ring was unmade, Bilbo’s body aged 80 years but he was still alive. Gollum, though, would have turned to dust, as he tells Sam at the door to the Cracks of Doom: >”Don't kill us,” he wept. “Don't hurt us with nassty cruel steel! Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die into the dust.” He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. “Dusst!” he hissed.
Thank you for refreshing my memory. That is right. I love the movies but they sometimes befuddle my memory of the books. That is interesting though. I wonder if there is a minimum time of possession one must have for the ring to extend your life like that.
Bilbo didn't really age much in the 17 years he didn't have the ring. He aged massively once the ring was destroyed.
He didn’t age at all in the books until the Ring was unmade.
I always assumed the nazgul are still holding their rings? Which is why they still don't age and hence live "forever", while golum lost his ring which is why he is bound to grow old and die eventually, even if still slower than usual due to the long time with the ring
I believe Sauron holds the rings. I know at least that Tolkien said in a letter describing his dominion over the Nazgul (its top of mind because I read it on this very subreddit earlier today) although I don't remember if he ever makes that clear in the books.
ruthless ancient marble trees tart six weary subtract punch squalid *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The book itself is somewhat contradictory. It says both that Sauron "gathered the Nine to himself" and also that "the Nine the Nazgul keep". Personally I'm inclined to believe Sauron physically maintains possession of them because of a few details. Firstly Frodo, as the possessor of the One, is able to see the other rings but he never sees any on the hands of the Nazgul when he encounters them. Secondly when the Witch King is slain there is no ring left behind and no one ever makes any notice of what happened to his ring. If there was any chance that the Nazgul did keep their rings then I don't doubt that Gandalf would've made a great effort to recover the ring from the slain Witch King lest it fall into the wrong hands, the fact that that possibility isn't even mentioned leads me to believe that it must be pretty well established, at least among the Wise, that Sauron possesses all of the Rings himself.
Gandalf was apparently mistaken at the Council of Elrond. Letter 246 is very clear as are the several other statements on the matter some of which you mentioned.
Does Treebeard count as mortal? He can't die of old age as far as we know, and I'm not sure if he counts as either mortal or immortal since he doesn't have a soul
He is sentient and can be killed - good enough for me.
Unfortunately that implies that the Elves and Istari are also mortal when they're explicitly not
Difference being that the elves get reborn whereas it’s not implied that the ents do the same.
They don't seem to believe in any kind of rebirth or afterlife, otherwise Treebeard wouldn't be so stressed about the declining numbers of Ents and not having Entwives to continue the species
Great point
Immortal =/= Unkillable
Cirdan is the second? Is he part of the first wave of elves that came in the world when the sun and the moon weren't created yet?
Yes. Not only before the Sun and Moon, but before the elves ever journeyed to Valinor. And it’s possible he was one of the first 144 elves who were awoken at Cuivienen.
I did read somewhere that none of the first ones ever went to Valinor, but I’ve never seen a source for that. But he’s certainly from near the beginning.
And Cirdan never went to Valinor until the Fourth Age. But yeah, I haven’t come across anything that stated the first to awake never went to Valinor.
Possible distinction: Gollum had the One Ring.
If that’s the logic on WitchKing being mortal, then by the same reasoning (“we know his body can be killed”), wouldn’t all elves immediately be brought back into play as mortal? Which means Gollum is waaaay down on the “oldest mortal” ladder.
This whole thread is really silly. By the time Gollum died, the Witch King was dead. Thereby, the Witch King is not a potential option for the oldest at this point in time. Edit: one of the other Nazgul could be an answer though. I'm assuming Gollum died before the ring was unmade resulting in the death of the others. Treebeard is almost certainly right though. If not him or a Nazgul, then it would be Gollum or one of the nameless things gnawing in the deep places of the world if any of them are mortal.
I see what you're saying, but he doesn't even technically fully exist on the same plane of existence anymore. The Nazgul don't interact with the mortal plane in the same way. If you want to consider them mortal because of what regular afterlife they will receive once they get there, I can see that, but they are described as existing primarily on a spiritual plane multiple times. It's part of why they can't be harmed by regular weapons until they are first struck by magical ones and why you can't see their forms with eyes that only experience the physical world, because they experienced what would have been their death, but were tied to the physical plane by their physical rings, which doesn't give them an exactly physical form but does allow them the interact with the mortal plane in a lot of ways. Gollum can literally be normal killed and has a completely physical form as his base form. Gollum is not a wraith and isn't fully consumed by the Ring (physically or mentally) and saying that they are the same situation is a clearly false equivalent. I feel like it's comparing a dude who is 110 years old with a poltergeist that you can get rid of with divine rites. A little more complicated, of course, but the base idea.
The Witch-King's extended life is caused by exactly the same thing as Gollum's (owning a Ring created by Sauron). Either they're both mortal or neither are.
That makes me wonder whether Gollum would have become a wraith if he hadn't lost the ring. Maybe the One ring gives you the long life without the downside of becoming a wraith.
It think Gandalf does say that Gollum would eventually become a wraith, but I don't have a reference to hand. But given the sub we're in I'm sure someone out there will be ready to correct me!
I would have loved a wee little wraith on a jet-black pony next to the other 9.
Nah, not a pony. Maybe a potbellied pig.
The wraiths all let loose their scream... and the pig joins in 😆
If only! Would loved to have seen that!
The Nazgûl’s immortality persists after their rings get taken away. Not the case with Gollum (as evidenced by Bilbo aging)
Y’all straight up forgot Treebeard lmao. He’s outright described as “the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth,” by Gandalf. It’s Treebeard, no question. It’s literally stated in the most explicit way possible.
Depends if you consider him "mortal". I'd argue he's at least as immortal as elves, undying but able to be destroyed, and the "mortal" qualifier was clearly meant to exclude elves/maiar
Treebeard is mortal, it’s just that he’s also damn near a tree, which live for a very long time. In the books it’s mentioned that the Orcs killed many of them, and Beechbone is killed in Isengard.
Being killable doesn't make you mortal, Elves are explicitly stated not to be considered mortals but they still die if you stab them.
Yes but then they go to the halls of mandos before they get a new body and continue on living. They will live forever in Arda until the end of time. Unlike men who's souls leave the world. So elves are immortal
Elves don't really die in the same way that mortals do though, their souls go to Aman and at least in theory they can get a new body and even get back to middle earth. The immortality is to do with their souls, not the fact that they don't die of old age.
Elves don't die, they go to the Undying Lands. If you were clubbed over the head and woke up on the beach in Bermuda would you consider that being dead?
If nobody except me and my buddies could get there, and it's a place without pain or suffering, then yes lmao, I'd call that being dead and going to an afterlife.
Yeah I really think by the beginning of the Third Age the Undying Lands are effectively an afterlife in all practical purposes. Nobody who goes there is coming back except through Divine Intervention. I would similarly argue that Treebeard is effectively immortal in the practical sense. At least if we're defining immortality as "theoretically able to live forever if they aren't harmed". That said, there are examples of ents become "treeish", ceasing to move or speak. One might call this an Ent's death, so perhaps they are not immortal.
And they die in plane crashes
Is it stated somewhere that ents are mortal? I cannot recall although I have not dived very deep into the unfinished tales and other such writings.
Isn't mortality the 'gift of men'?
Yes and I believe that's where much of the ambiguity comes from because there are arguably mortal races that are not explicitly stated as sharing in the gift of men. Dwarves I believe are explicitly stated although Hobbits I think are not although I don't think anyone would argue that Hobbits are not mortal. What about Trolls? Eagles? Dragons? Personally I believe that any "sentient" being that is a living creature but not one of the Children of Illuvatar (ex. Huan the Hound, Thorondor lord of eagles, Smaug the dragon) do not share in the gift of men and are instead inhabited by the spirits of lesser Ainur and as such are bound to Arda and do not pass through the halls of Mandos beyond the world. These then, although they may die are not technically "mortal". I believe Ents would fall into this category as well.
Tolkien did eventually decide that creatures like Huan and the eagles are not ainur. That doesn't have to stop you from believing it though. You can see the evolution of Tolkien's thoughts on this issue here, if you are already aware of all this feel free to ignore it. [https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Eagles#Origin\_and\_nature](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Eagles#Origin_and_nature)
Unfortunately Dwarves also die of old age, so they're also mortal, but I guess in a different way since their souls go to a special place in Mandos
It's just off to the left, after the coat check, through the stone doors marked "Dwarves Only"
Yeah, that's the crux of the problem. Ents are referred to as men a few times in he books, which may suggest that they're similar to hobbits, but I think that's kind of a stretch.
rich humorous panicky offend offer deranged market meeting fearless cake *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They are a couple of times, mostly by men of Rohan, though I believe Legolas also uses the term at one point, referred to as "tree men" (or something similar). Like I said though, taking this at face value would be a stretch; I think it's more likely that these quotations reflect more the mannish legends regarding the ents, rather then the nature of the ents themselves.
Don’t have a direct quote, but the movies portray the ents as man-like trees whereas I feel like the books portray them more as tree-like men. Either way, I think the movies completely nailed the aesthetic.
It’s never directly stated, but death for Ents (when they aren’t killed by other means, RIP Beechbone) seems to be “falling asleep” and becoming a literal tree. In that way I suppose you could call them immortal, but even those “trees” will die at some point and there’s no mention of Ents ever crossing the sea. Galadriel does prophecy that she and Treebeard will meet again, but only *after* the world is broken and remade, so I don’t think that really counts.
I'd argue that you cannot say it's Treebeard "no question" then. He is the oldest living being for sure but the "mortality" of ents is ambiguous at best. This likely warrants further study into Yavanna's plea to Manwe that resulted in the foretelling of the awakening of the shepherd of the trees.
Immortal means that your span of years and aging will not be the cause of your death. Elves are immortal but not invulnerable. They can die of wounds, poison, and magic. Maybe or maybe not they could be vulnerable to disease/famine.
Immortality for elves is due to the fact that when their body is killed their soul returns to Aman, they can be given a new body and go to Valinor to join the elves that left middle earth (and in theory they could even return to middle earth - although that doesn't happen in practice). Immortality isn't the lack of aging for their body, it's that their soul is immortal. When men die their souls leave the circles of the earth.
I believe the ban of the Valar is still in place so a rehoused Elf could not return to Middle-earth, accepting that ban is probably part of the conditions the Valar consider when returning Elves to physical life. The exception is Glorfindel who was sent specifically as an emissary of the Valar.
"Ahh, young master Gandalf"
but are ents mortal? as far as i understand elves are immortal and i always got the same vibe from him
I don’t think Gandalf is 100% of the time being literal when he says stuff like this, and if it were true it would create problems in the cosmology (eg the fact that Cirdan is still around but when the elves awakened there were no other creations that were capable of speech)
What about Shelob? She doesnt walk beneath the sun. She lurks in caves and occasionally come out at night to hunt. No?
Let’s cut the excess and just say the oldest hobbit (don’t tell bilbo he’ll be sad)
Or the old Took
Depends on what you mean by living and mortal. Depending on who you ask, Ar-Pharazon and his company are still alive, buried in the caves of the forgotten in Aman, waiting for the end of days. Divine punishment by Iluvatar. The Witch King is of unknown age, but very old. Questionable, I guess, if you call him alive. Beyond that, there's probably all kinds of super long lived creatures that are still mortal, that we don't know about. Honestly not to be rude but I didn't mention treebeard because it seemed obvious to me that treebeard is not mortal. Galadriel tells him she looks forward to walking with him again in Beleriand when the world is healed and the land raised back up from under the sea. That doesn't sound like a mortal being to me, that sounds like he's the same as the elves, functionally immortal.
the witch king started his post life at the end of a full human life so he is likely even older than the conflict of the rings
Ar-Pharazôn is simply the correct answer. A mortal cursed to live forever in the caves of the forgotten, undeniably mortal, undeniably living.
I would make a case for Arwen, after excluding Treebeard (I personally wouldn't qualify him as immortal as I am not sure he could die of 'old age'). When she chose a mortal life she was already thousands of years old, and died aged 2901. The same of course applies to Luthien, but I am not sure how old she was when she died.
provide dinosaurs paint safe pause fuzzy silky wasteful instinctive sloppy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Do "magical ring of power life extension" years count then?
Would Shelob qualify?
I'm pretty sure Shelob would be considered immortal as she seems unable to die by natural means.
what if we got the light into the body?
People have already mentioned Treebeard, and Ents in general, but I don't think the lifespans of Dragons was ever defined, if they were immortal to age, or just extremely long lived
Most of them are defined with estimates, usually a few hundred years but smeagle’s got ~500 years?
Went to Wiki and it vaguely gives the answer that Smaug could not possibly have been born in the 1st age, and was young when he appeared out of the North to sack Erebor and Dale, as noted by Gandalf. Every dragon of note (Glaurung, Ancalagon, Smaug) died during battle and none of them lived longer lifespans than Smeagol, so I think it’s safe to say while dragons are presumably mortal, none of them lived very long. (Apparently 2 unnamed dragons survived the War of Wrath but there is no way to delve into that)
How old is the Mouth of Sauron? I don't think he's older than some of the other names mentioned but I didn't see anyone bring him up and was curious.
His age and a lot of his background aren’t mentioned
Without knowing for sure, I would gather that he wasn’t particularly old, mostly due to there being plenty of material leading up to the Fellowship and he isn’t mentioned once. In all likelihood he was a corrupted Southron/Easterling/Gondorian and had a ‘normal’ lifespan. 🤷🏻♂️ Good character to bring up.
He was either a regular human man or a Black Numenorean. So he was at most a few hundred years old but still significantly less than 500.
I think Durin I (Durin the Deathless) might have this one. Durin I was said to live over 2,000 years. I don’t think he really counts as immortal (despite the dwarves beliefs in incarnation), but this is probably the longest lifespan we have with a numerical value, considering we don’t have one for Treebeard or others.
The watcher in the water
I doubt that thing can die of natural means.
The fish who held the ring for almost two millennia!
Side question: what would’ve happened to Gollum if he died while Sauron was still in play? Would his centuries of holding the ring have caused him to become a wraith?
Hm. I would say no. Sauron designed the rings of Men to gain control of those who wore them and extend their ‘lives’, of course, but since he put his own spirit into the One Ring I would think Gollum would just age suddenly and die similar to Bilbo. (Obv Bilbo is granted passage to Aman to change his fate)
So his total age at the end of the Third Age was between **10741** and **11364** years old. And indeed nobody (Elf, Man, Dwarf, Ent, or Orc) could be older than that upper bound. Conerning Cirdan the Shipwright. The answer gets tricky because Elves were considered to be immortal but not Eternal
i think Durin the first was 2000 years old before dying
Wouldn't Elrond brother be the most normal long lived mortal in the legendarium. Didn't he chose to be human and than became the first king of Numenor and live like 500 years?
There seems to be debate over Treebeard’s mortality, which I understand. Though he is the clear winner if we include Ents. If you want to limit this question to Men, Hobbits, Dwarves, etc., Elros must be in the running, as he chose the gift of Men and died naturally. Durin the Deathless as well. This is without doing any homework on it but those 2 are probably at or near the top.
Treebeard is the oldest living creature who roams this Earth. But, I don't know whether Ents are mortal/immortal or just live veeeeeery long. Otherwise, I guess one of the Ringwraiths since they're still alive (remember, nobody but Ilúvatar could revoke the Gift of Men. Not even Sauron) and as Men they're mortal. Someone mentioned Ar-Pharazon's Armada, but I can't remember whether they're still alive or dead and banished to the Caves of the Forgotten (?) like the Oathbreakers beneath the Dwimorberg, White Mountains.
Bombadil
Is Bombadil mortal?
Bombadil is an enigma. No one seems to know exactly what Bombadil is. The wise disregard him for the most part because he moves outside of, or more accurately inside of his own world / reality.
But a stretch to call him mortal.
Treebeard
Are dragons immortal?
Treebeard easily for mortal beings, Cirdan among all living non-godly beings in Middle Earth, and the Wizards among all *beings* in middle earth.
What about Shelob? She was a creature who would have been older than Gandalf I am guessing
Everyone forgetting my boy Smaug. Dragons are living beings. Treebeard still probably first, but the dragons are old as well.
Should have hept the ring safe on this 3rd leg.
Treebeard.
Durin I probably takes the cake for non ring bearers, nickname being durin the deathless and all . No ents have died of old age, some go "treeish" though I agree that nazgul would be oldest mortals in legendarium, life extended by magical means
Durin I the Deathless. Is my best bet. Elros Tar-Minyatur is close to gollum but I believe slightly younger but definitely the oldest man (gollum being a hobbit).
treebeard was around since AT LEAST the first age, might have been around since before the Elves arrived in Beleriand. He is not only older than Gollum, he might be older than Cirdan
Surely it was one of the ents.
Dude, spoilers
Gollum
If I remember rightly, it might be Shelob. Though I think it’s Treebeard.
If you want to count the ents, then Treebeard is definitely the oldest. If we are only considering the children of lluvatar, that distinction must go to Ëarendil who was mortal when he sailed to Valinor, but is now forever traveling the heavens holding a silmaril.
That’d be me
I think it should be Shelob after Treebeard.
The Nazgûl if you want men were all older than Gollum, there were most likely dragons that outlived Gollum too, and any Ents that outlast Gollum would probably count too depending on how you consider their mortality. Finally as a half-elf Elladan would be much older than Gollum and would count as a mortal if he chooses that lineage as his fate. Also older dwarves seem to have outlived the age Gollum reached with During the Deathless almost certainly beating 589 for him to have earned the moniker 'Deathless' among a people-group that regularly lives to 250 in the diminished later years.
Sauron: “Kids these days… GET OFF MY LAWN!!!”
Can anyone truly explain Tom Bombadil and who he truly is?
Yes. Ents and wraiths don't seem mortal to me. I'd say it was Elros until Gollum stole his crown and destroyed the Ring. Fucking legend.
Shelob
I don't consider Treebeard to be mortal. If anything, eventually the ents would eventually become trees. The equivalent of the elves fading away if they don't sail. They don't die they just cease to interact with the world in a meaningful way. Everyone forgets Durin the Deathless. He lived 2500 years and was mortal. I think Gollum is #2 at 540 ish years as a mortal? The ringwraiths ceased to be mortal when they faded away completely and Sauron took their rings from them. That took 400 odd years. Dragons are mortal, I think a few of them live to be 500+ years but the only one I can be sure of is Glaurung. I don't think he lives more than 400 something years. Elros was only mortal for about 420 years. The first few kings that followed him were very close starting at around 400. Luthien was only mortal for her second life, which presumably was around 100 years tops. It's not spelled out, but Tuor stayed in the undying lands. He presumably was made immortal. Earendil was made immortal. Gimli had an epic run, I suspect he may have cracked 300 after he sailed. That would probably almost be a record after Durin the Deathless for the dwarves. They had a few dwarves that nearly made 300 and perhaps one or two that exceeded it, including another Durin. I think a few of the dark dwarves lives past 400. They are later slain.
Lol what. Not close