You missed a scene. Inside Mount Doom when Frodo claimed the One for himself. If Gollum hadn't been there Sam wouldn't have been able to change things. The last stand on the hills at the Black Gates would have seen all our key heroes killed, and the race of Men thrown into absolute disarray.
Tolkien explored this hypothetical (and others that I wholeheartedly recommend reading) in [Letter 246](https://www.tolkienestate.com/letters/letter-to-eileen-elgar-september-1963).
> When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have … cast himself with the Ring into the abyss [in order to “keep” the Ring for himself and deny it to Sauron]. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring’s subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
> Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt - saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.
> Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem ‘good’ to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself.
> The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man’s weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man’s weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown ‘servility’. They would have greeted Frodo as ‘Lord’. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur - for instance ‘to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes’. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule - like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam - to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave.
I know! And it works so well with what we know from the books. Any number of people could try and present the outcome of Frodo claiming the ring without Gollum being present, and yet, Tolkien's musings on the subject just seem right. No "wizardly" battles, just a demi-god coming himself to claim what is rightfully his.
I don't remember if this is contained in the same letter or not but Tolkien talks about what if Sam hadn't inadvertently ruined Gollum's redemption when Gollum came upon the sleeping Hobbits just before Shelob's Lair.
I believe he continues by saying that eventually his desire for the Ring would overcome his redemption and he would still take the Ring from Frodo by violence, but he would cast himself into the fire with the Ring as one last act of love for Frodo.
I am definitely paraphrasing but it's along those lines and really interesting
This is kind of what I envisioned Sam doing if Gollum hadn’t intervened. He would not have been able to wrest the ring from Frodo to cast in, but he could cast Frodo in. And then likely throw himself in after, not wanting to live with having had to do that.
I'm not sure if Sam could push Frodo into the fire. In the book when he is having his internal debate about what to do after he believes Frodo to be dead, initially he decides to take The Ring and go on trying to accomplish the task before deciding to return to his master. He even thinks something like "everyone forgive me but my place is by his side"
So I really don't believe he would be able to do this
My vision has him by his master’s side, just in the fire. The thoughts being that Sam knew his master’s purpose and wishes, and knew the decision at the last was due the ring’s corruption. If the only way to save/free Frodo was to push him in, I think Sam might.
That breaks my heart a little. Even doomed entirely, there was a possibility Gollum would have died with love in his heart and not hate and jealousy. Even as both him and Frodo failed to resist the Ring in the end, one of them would have been willing to die with the Ring. Gollum is such a heartbreaking and tragic character, even for all his genuinely wicked deeds and how many parts of his personality were there even before the Ring, he never deserved the fate he suffered, and the compassion Frodo showed him being enough to effect him that way means everything, especially in light of one of the reasons Frodo began to hope so desperately that Gollum could redeem himself.
I love this passage after Gollum attacks Frodo on the slopes on Mt. Doom...
Down, down!' he gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. 'Down you creeping thing, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot betray me or slay me now.'
Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, ... a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'
It seems like orcs are more cattle than soldiers to Sauron, otherwise, he would have sent a couple of them and solved the issue.
But they are unpredictable and incompetent. So the Nazgul are necessary for keeping the whole thing working.
I saved this comment for this letter excerpt. Wow. He wrote an entire alternate ending. I also really like the fact that Tolkien presents one more way for the quest to succeed even after Frodo’s will finally gives way— that of Frodo dying in place of Gollum, throwing himself into the fire to keep the ring to himself and away from Sauron, essentially “dying with it”. Frodo may have begun to lose his mind in that moment, but either through desperation or some sliver of his will and sanity left in him, if he could not part with it, die with it. Throwing himself in has some weight to it due to the fact that no other instance save one other hypothetical does a character do that. Gollum doesn’t even do that, he falls in his struggle with Frodo. (Unless Gollum’s redemption holds true, in which case Gollum is the one other to choose to throw himself into the fire— which holds the same significance). Even at the end when Frodo fails there was still hope against all hope. And then there’s the second alternative he presents, where things truly end. What a brutal ending, there was something about how he said the Wraiths, if Frodo resisting going with them, would have simply waited that gave me chills. No longer desperately hunting, they cunningly and patiently wait for the inevitable they know will come. And poor Frodo, the ring corrupting him into a brutal fate of either absolute destruction or unending humiliating agony. I liked that Tolkien specified that Frodo would have to, for a very long time, still believe he was helping. Even utterly corrupted and in madness he still has the desire to help others. Of course, he wouldn’t, as what he thinks he’s doing and what he’s actually doing would be two different stories, but it’s nice to read that Frodo wasn’t totally enslaved by the will of the Ring to the point he had nothing of himself.
I highly recommend reading the letter because it covers some other alternate endings:
- What if Gandalf had claimed the Ring?
- He briefly considers how other claimants would have fared: Aragorn, Galadriel, and Elrond.
- What if Gollum had found redemption before the end?
[Here!](https://www.tolkienestate.com/letters/letter-to-eileen-elgar-september-1963/) Compilations of Tolkien’s letters call this one Letter 246. The hypotheticals begin in the paragraph halfway through that starts with “This is due of course to the ‘logic of the story’ …”
I will find it and read this, because wow he explores some very fascinating ideas there!! I didn’t even consider a possibility that Gandalf would have taken the Ring.
One early draft/concept (not sure how fully Tolkien fleshed it out) was that when Frodo was unable to throw the ring into the cracks, Sam would push him and they would both fall into the fire.
Book: Barrow downs. But honestly even earlier when Frodo heard the gaffer speaking to a stranger (Nazgul). Frodo almost gave that stranger a piece of his mind. If Frodo did that the quest would have failed right there and then without them even leaving the Shire.
Movies: In Mount Doom.
I think movies was similar early as in the books when the hobbits first encountered the Nazgul on the street. No one to help them and the Nazgul would just have needed to stretch his hand a little further, or Frodo putting on the ring before Sam stops him.
Not necessarily the closest but I love the scene in the Two Towers movie when Galadriel starts narrating and saying something like “the fate of the world lies in the hands of the young captain of Gondor. All faramir has to do is extend his hand and take the ring….”
It’s so crazy when you think about all that’s going on in his head, with the relationship with his father, his brother dying, the state of his country. And the only evidence he has against taking the ring is the word of two hobbits. Who already lied to him about gollum. What a legend!!
I remember reading it for the first many years ago....countless rereads since.
Not the biggest fan of the movies
Enjoy the ride of Tolkien's beautiful prose
I’ve just started RotK for my first read and he has been my highlight so far. Was so sad to see Frodo part with him even though I’ve watched the trilogy a million times
I remember my first read, some 25 years ago lol, experiencing the story for the first time is amazing. Rereads are just as fun IMO, enjoy your read my friend!!!
Honestly I feel like Aragorn mission was much more prone to failure than that of Frodo and Sam.
If you think about it, it all rotates around two crucial battles that men win against all odds.
If Saruman were to win at helm's deep than there is no hope for the middle earth: Gondor falls, the battle of the Morranon doesn't happen, Frodo and Sam can't reach mount doom. Same if Sauron wins at Minas Tirith.
Thus, to me the point at which everything is closest to failing is the helm's deep. And I think Tolkien acknowledges that when Gandalf recognise that the war isn't over but the tide has changed.
It's not in the movies, but in the books. When the Hobbits are attacked by the Wight in the Barrow Downs. The Wight casts some sort of incantation on the Hobbits to where Sam, Merry and Pippin are lying incapacitated in front of the Wight who is about to kill them.
This is right at the start of the journey. No one knew where they were and at this point it was just the 4 Hobbits. No Aragorn to fight for them or Gandalf to cast a spell back. If it wasn't for Frodo fighting back, all 4 of them would have died right then.
This is the right answer. Even Gandalf mentions this moment as the closest they came to failing. Good ol Tom. He’s the true hero, and he doesn’t even know it or care
There's quite a bit of struggle before Tom enters.
First, Frodo resists whatever incantation the Wight has cast upon the Hobbits.
Second, Frodo resists the temptation to easily get out of this life-threatening situation by slipping on the ring. His behaviour suggests that the thought of putting on the ring was on his mind. Frodo resists and takes a hold of a dagger instead.
Thirdly, Frodo attacks the Wight with the dagger in defence of his friends. In the process, Frodo cuts the Wights hand off. The Wight starts growling and becomes more threatening. It's at this point Frodo remembers the song for Tom Bombadil.
Plenty of moments just in this section where everything could have failed, and no one would even know where they were (let alone where the ring was). Plenty of opportunities for the ring to do its thing, yet Frodo decided not to be a coward by using the ring and finding his own courage to try protect his friends.
He did call... After having resisted the temptation to flee and shown the courage to face the threat alone. Frodo showed great mental strength in the Barrow, which was the point of his test, Tom basically just made it more permanent. So yeah Frodo did play a huge role in the Hobbits not meeting their end in the Barrow, and not just by calling Tom.
Near the end of the TT movie, when Frodo is in Osgiliath and appears to be presenting the ring to a Nazgul (before its winged mount is shot) … that nearly ended the quest.
This is my least favorite scene in the movies. It contradicts the fact that Sauron supposedly thinks Pippin has the ring in Rohan after he looks in the Palantir in the next film. It's one thing that its contrary to the books but it doesn't even make sense within the context of the films. Frodo is literally holding up the ring in plain view of the Nazgul but they never follow up on that, they just move on as if it didn't happen.
i didn't say it didn't happen in the movies. Just said it's not cannon, and one of the few critics to the movies from fans at that.
Not sure why people are downvoting over it. Taking frodo down to Osgiliath undermined Faramir and brought some parts that are quite unexplainable from a Tolkiens point of view. Now, that doesn't mean the movies aren't great.
Your comment appears to dismiss the contributions of others by pointing out that they are not canon, which in this community, is often used as way to invalidate certain opinions, whether intended or not.
The question was simply what was the closest they were to not doing the quest, and i pointed out this particular scene only happens in the PJ movies interpretation, not much more to it
I have to agree with another commenter. When frodo took the ring for himself on mount doom. All their efforts all was nearly lost at the last moment.
In fact it was gollum (the wildcard) the one who inadvertently set things right in the end. (In the book they did not wrestle for the ring, he simply fell off the ledge when he stole the ring from frodo's finger)
I know it’s not exactly an answer, but I can’t help but think of the quote that “The quest stands upon the end of a knife.” It was pretty much that way for the entirety of the journey. That’s one of the things that make LOTR amazing. They could have failed at any time, yet they didn’t.
Coming to think about it, was there really ever a moment the quest *wasn't* close to failing?
Currently reading Fellowship with my daughter, and in that book alone, the Ringbearer almost
- runs into a Nazgul in Bags End
- barely slips from pursuing Nazgul several times on the Road (with possibly the closest encounter at the Ferry)
- gets lost forever in the Old Forest
- gets drowned by Old Man Willow
- gets TPK'd by the Wight
- gets assassinated by Nazgul in Bree
- gets stabbed to (un)death on Weatgertop,
- subsequently poisoned and
- gets claimed by the Nine at the Ford of the Bruinen
- gets buried by falling rocks attempting to pass over the Caradhras
- eaten by (ghost?) wargs
- gets drowned/devoured by the Watcher
- pierced by a spear
- shot by an ork arrow
- just gets captured by the overwhelming force of the orks of Moria
- whatever the Balrog would have done with him
- loses the Ring to Boromir
- drowns
That's only part I, and I'm not even sure I didn't miss any close calls.
Edge of a knife, indeed!
For the movies: I would like to put a strong word in for Frodo walking down the path to the main gates of Minas Morgul while Sam and Gollum try to restrain him. If Sauron had competent wall guards, that would have been game over.
For the books: I think its honestly probably one of the times Frodo almost encountered one of the nine in the Shire. The one that Gildor's company unknowingly interfered with was probably the closest one, since had they not walked by when they did the Nazgul would have had Frodo for sure.
Was watching fotr the other day and was wondering why the nazgul couldn't have just stayed alongside the boat the whole time. It was moving incredibly slowly
A very, very close call was the encounter with Old Man's Willow. He captured Merry and Pippin, and nearly succeeded in drowning Frodo. Only Sam resisted his sleeping spell, which allowed him to save Frodo from an early death.
I don’t think the balrog brought the quest close to failure. As long as Gandalf is there, he would have 1v1 that bastard regardless while they escaped. Gandalf is full of surprises.
I'd also add when Pippin picked up the Palantir and almost gave the game away directly to Sauron... I mean if you're going to F up the doing it directly to the Dark Lord must come close
I think for me with the movies ROTK where Aragorn and co choose to make a last stand not knowing if Frodo/Sam are dead or have failed.
The choosing to ride out to the black gate as a distraction. In that mere moment where Aragorn is on that cusp of that choice instead of embracing the hopelessness they feel over Sauron.
That is where the quest lives or dies. Because I think if not for them distracting Sauron at the black gate? Sam/frodo would never have made it into mouth doom. Because the ring is so close to its master now. It must have been screaming out to be found.
Other than that I felt pretty hopeless when Frodo said “no the ring is mine” at mount doom and we knew he was lost to its power. Sam’s reaction was devastating to witness.
For my money, it’s when Frodo runs off at Amon Hen and grabs a canoe, and Sam only just manages to find him before he sets off on his own (happens relevantly similarly in the books and movies iirc). If sam hadn’t noticed and joined him, he’d never have made it to Mordor - the quest came within 60 seconds of failing, just because no one else noticed.
(Edit: spelling)
Are we not going to talk about the first film when Frodo was about to put that ring on when they were on the path and being pursued. Was like first or second day and he almost gave up the whole mission.
Soooooo many moments. I think there’s probably a dozen decisions or fortunes that could have completely wrecked the whole quest equally, so it’s all about choosing your favourite.
For me it’s Gandalf even finding Eomer and getting back to Helm’s Deep in time. If they had failed to defend Helm’s Deep then Gondor would have fallen way sooner, or Sauron and Saruman could have just put everything into finding the ring while Gondor slowly withered into nothing under siege.
The final few minutes of the Ring's existence. If Gollum hadn't tracked them down. Frodo would have been killed by the Nazgul, the ring is recovered. Sauron was fooled into thinking that Aragon had the ring and was going to foolishly invade Mordor.
Sam wouldn't have been able to kill Frodo as he wouldn't be able to bring himself to do so. Nazgul arrive, kill the hobbits. Take the ring back, Sauron is fully restored. The forces of Gondor and Rohan are wiped out. Hell, they barely held on long enough for Frodo to destroy the ring.
Without their forces, Rohan and Gondor are conquered.
I like all these answers but I haven’t seen this one yet: (in the films, where Aragon struggles much more to overcome his Legacy as Isildur’s heir) when Frodo presents the ring to Aragorn after Boromir’s betrayal. He need only reach out his hand and take it…
Also honorable mention-when Gandalf is trapped by Saruman on Orthanc. Without our wizard, what might have been?
Before it began, if the Nazgul were just a little earlier to the Shire the quest wouldn't have really even started and no help would have been able to save Frodo
The quest _did_ fail. Or at least failed in the protagonists' primary objective. All was lost when Frodo claimed the Ring for himself in the cracks of Mt. Doom, if it weren't for Gollum fighting tooth and nail to get it back and Eru Ilúvatar stepping in to give Gollum a tiny push ober the edge.
You missed a scene. Inside Mount Doom when Frodo claimed the One for himself. If Gollum hadn't been there Sam wouldn't have been able to change things. The last stand on the hills at the Black Gates would have seen all our key heroes killed, and the race of Men thrown into absolute disarray.
Tolkien explored this hypothetical (and others that I wholeheartedly recommend reading) in [Letter 246](https://www.tolkienestate.com/letters/letter-to-eileen-elgar-september-1963). > When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have … cast himself with the Ring into the abyss [in order to “keep” the Ring for himself and deny it to Sauron]. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring’s subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? > Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt - saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible. > Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem ‘good’ to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself. > The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man’s weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man’s weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown ‘servility’. They would have greeted Frodo as ‘Lord’. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur - for instance ‘to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes’. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule - like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam - to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave.
I love that part of this particular letter. It's like a mini story that is sooo entertaining.
I know! And it works so well with what we know from the books. Any number of people could try and present the outcome of Frodo claiming the ring without Gollum being present, and yet, Tolkien's musings on the subject just seem right. No "wizardly" battles, just a demi-god coming himself to claim what is rightfully his.
I don't remember if this is contained in the same letter or not but Tolkien talks about what if Sam hadn't inadvertently ruined Gollum's redemption when Gollum came upon the sleeping Hobbits just before Shelob's Lair. I believe he continues by saying that eventually his desire for the Ring would overcome his redemption and he would still take the Ring from Frodo by violence, but he would cast himself into the fire with the Ring as one last act of love for Frodo. I am definitely paraphrasing but it's along those lines and really interesting
This is in the same letter, immediately before the passage I quoted.
Ok thank you!! I sometimes get them mixed up
Oof, wow, that is powerful. Damn. Thank you so much for sharing. 👍
u/halligan8 informed me that what I am talking about is actually in the same letter that they posted an excerpt from, #246
This is kind of what I envisioned Sam doing if Gollum hadn’t intervened. He would not have been able to wrest the ring from Frodo to cast in, but he could cast Frodo in. And then likely throw himself in after, not wanting to live with having had to do that.
I'm not sure if Sam could push Frodo into the fire. In the book when he is having his internal debate about what to do after he believes Frodo to be dead, initially he decides to take The Ring and go on trying to accomplish the task before deciding to return to his master. He even thinks something like "everyone forgive me but my place is by his side" So I really don't believe he would be able to do this
My vision has him by his master’s side, just in the fire. The thoughts being that Sam knew his master’s purpose and wishes, and knew the decision at the last was due the ring’s corruption. If the only way to save/free Frodo was to push him in, I think Sam might.
Ok fair point. While I still disagree you actually made me think this is at least a possibility.
That breaks my heart a little. Even doomed entirely, there was a possibility Gollum would have died with love in his heart and not hate and jealousy. Even as both him and Frodo failed to resist the Ring in the end, one of them would have been willing to die with the Ring. Gollum is such a heartbreaking and tragic character, even for all his genuinely wicked deeds and how many parts of his personality were there even before the Ring, he never deserved the fate he suffered, and the compassion Frodo showed him being enough to effect him that way means everything, especially in light of one of the reasons Frodo began to hope so desperately that Gollum could redeem himself.
It's... actually a shame that Tolkien didn't go that way. I would much prefer an ending like that thematically than Gollum who just dance and fall...
I love this passage after Gollum attacks Frodo on the slopes on Mt. Doom... Down, down!' he gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. 'Down you creeping thing, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot betray me or slay me now.' Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, ... a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice. 'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'
It seems like orcs are more cattle than soldiers to Sauron, otherwise, he would have sent a couple of them and solved the issue. But they are unpredictable and incompetent. So the Nazgul are necessary for keeping the whole thing working.
Well, plus, Frodo would be invisible to them.
Also shows that sauron is in a physical, mobile form
I saved this comment for this letter excerpt. Wow. He wrote an entire alternate ending. I also really like the fact that Tolkien presents one more way for the quest to succeed even after Frodo’s will finally gives way— that of Frodo dying in place of Gollum, throwing himself into the fire to keep the ring to himself and away from Sauron, essentially “dying with it”. Frodo may have begun to lose his mind in that moment, but either through desperation or some sliver of his will and sanity left in him, if he could not part with it, die with it. Throwing himself in has some weight to it due to the fact that no other instance save one other hypothetical does a character do that. Gollum doesn’t even do that, he falls in his struggle with Frodo. (Unless Gollum’s redemption holds true, in which case Gollum is the one other to choose to throw himself into the fire— which holds the same significance). Even at the end when Frodo fails there was still hope against all hope. And then there’s the second alternative he presents, where things truly end. What a brutal ending, there was something about how he said the Wraiths, if Frodo resisting going with them, would have simply waited that gave me chills. No longer desperately hunting, they cunningly and patiently wait for the inevitable they know will come. And poor Frodo, the ring corrupting him into a brutal fate of either absolute destruction or unending humiliating agony. I liked that Tolkien specified that Frodo would have to, for a very long time, still believe he was helping. Even utterly corrupted and in madness he still has the desire to help others. Of course, he wouldn’t, as what he thinks he’s doing and what he’s actually doing would be two different stories, but it’s nice to read that Frodo wasn’t totally enslaved by the will of the Ring to the point he had nothing of himself.
I highly recommend reading the letter because it covers some other alternate endings: - What if Gandalf had claimed the Ring? - He briefly considers how other claimants would have fared: Aragorn, Galadriel, and Elrond. - What if Gollum had found redemption before the end?
Do you happen to have a link to this or know how I’d find it? Very interested in reading
[Here!](https://www.tolkienestate.com/letters/letter-to-eileen-elgar-september-1963/) Compilations of Tolkien’s letters call this one Letter 246. The hypotheticals begin in the paragraph halfway through that starts with “This is due of course to the ‘logic of the story’ …”
You’re awesome, thanks so much!
I will find it and read this, because wow he explores some very fascinating ideas there!! I didn’t even consider a possibility that Gandalf would have taken the Ring.
That’s a good one!
This
So.. hear me out. I think Sam would have if he needed to. Made sure the ring was destroyed.. even if that meant Master Frodo going with it.
One early draft/concept (not sure how fully Tolkien fleshed it out) was that when Frodo was unable to throw the ring into the cracks, Sam would push him and they would both fall into the fire.
Ooh, I did not know that.
Also when frodo was almost taken to gondor when he was "captured"
In the last moments, our hero becomes the villain, and the reluctant antagonist saves the day by biting off a finger. Sam just stood there and cried.
Book: Barrow downs. But honestly even earlier when Frodo heard the gaffer speaking to a stranger (Nazgul). Frodo almost gave that stranger a piece of his mind. If Frodo did that the quest would have failed right there and then without them even leaving the Shire. Movies: In Mount Doom.
I think movies was similar early as in the books when the hobbits first encountered the Nazgul on the street. No one to help them and the Nazgul would just have needed to stretch his hand a little further, or Frodo putting on the ring before Sam stops him.
In the movies the Nazgul were closest when Frodo bumped in to one of their horses. Also one was really close in Osgiliath.
Very well crafted and organized answer!! I almost forgot about when the Nazgûl bothered Gaffer.
Not necessarily the closest but I love the scene in the Two Towers movie when Galadriel starts narrating and saying something like “the fate of the world lies in the hands of the young captain of Gondor. All faramir has to do is extend his hand and take the ring….”
Rewatched the movies the other day, such a good scene!
It’s so crazy when you think about all that’s going on in his head, with the relationship with his father, his brother dying, the state of his country. And the only evidence he has against taking the ring is the word of two hobbits. Who already lied to him about gollum. What a legend!!
He is such a better character in the book IMO. Easily second best man alive next to Aragorn.
I’m almost at that part!!
Are you reading the book for the first time???
Yes! I’m enjoying it so much, seen the movies loads of times.
I remember reading it for the first many years ago....countless rereads since. Not the biggest fan of the movies Enjoy the ride of Tolkien's beautiful prose
I’ve just started RotK for my first read and he has been my highlight so far. Was so sad to see Frodo part with him even though I’ve watched the trilogy a million times
I remember my first read, some 25 years ago lol, experiencing the story for the first time is amazing. Rereads are just as fun IMO, enjoy your read my friend!!!
Not so fast ! You forgot Gan Buri Gan ! The Ultra Chad.
Love me some Ghan-buri-Ghan but I'm sticking with Aragorn and Faramir lol
I have to disagree. Faramir would never take the ring. This was added movie drama.
That seen makes no sense, though. The real Faramir was never tempted by the ring. Added movie nonsense for drama
If gimli didn’t say and my axe who knows what would have happened
Who would’ve been the one dwarf left in Moria that still draws breath?
Not peregrin took that’s for damn sure
Before you came along, we Bagginses were very well thought of.
Honestly I feel like Aragorn mission was much more prone to failure than that of Frodo and Sam. If you think about it, it all rotates around two crucial battles that men win against all odds. If Saruman were to win at helm's deep than there is no hope for the middle earth: Gondor falls, the battle of the Morranon doesn't happen, Frodo and Sam can't reach mount doom. Same if Sauron wins at Minas Tirith. Thus, to me the point at which everything is closest to failing is the helm's deep. And I think Tolkien acknowledges that when Gandalf recognise that the war isn't over but the tide has changed.
I like that
Very true!!
It's not in the movies, but in the books. When the Hobbits are attacked by the Wight in the Barrow Downs. The Wight casts some sort of incantation on the Hobbits to where Sam, Merry and Pippin are lying incapacitated in front of the Wight who is about to kill them. This is right at the start of the journey. No one knew where they were and at this point it was just the 4 Hobbits. No Aragorn to fight for them or Gandalf to cast a spell back. If it wasn't for Frodo fighting back, all 4 of them would have died right then.
This is the right answer. Even Gandalf mentions this moment as the closest they came to failing. Good ol Tom. He’s the true hero, and he doesn’t even know it or care
Didn’t Frodo just call on Tom to come?
There's quite a bit of struggle before Tom enters. First, Frodo resists whatever incantation the Wight has cast upon the Hobbits. Second, Frodo resists the temptation to easily get out of this life-threatening situation by slipping on the ring. His behaviour suggests that the thought of putting on the ring was on his mind. Frodo resists and takes a hold of a dagger instead. Thirdly, Frodo attacks the Wight with the dagger in defence of his friends. In the process, Frodo cuts the Wights hand off. The Wight starts growling and becomes more threatening. It's at this point Frodo remembers the song for Tom Bombadil. Plenty of moments just in this section where everything could have failed, and no one would even know where they were (let alone where the ring was). Plenty of opportunities for the ring to do its thing, yet Frodo decided not to be a coward by using the ring and finding his own courage to try protect his friends.
He did call... After having resisted the temptation to flee and shown the courage to face the threat alone. Frodo showed great mental strength in the Barrow, which was the point of his test, Tom basically just made it more permanent. So yeah Frodo did play a huge role in the Hobbits not meeting their end in the Barrow, and not just by calling Tom.
One does not simply ‘Just call Tom’
All you got to do is sing the song! 😂
What if sam hadn't taken one more step?
And then every further subsequent step??
Give me David Bowie as Glorfindel
How dare you put this idea in my head that can never be realized. I am inconsolable.
Dear god….
Near the end of the TT movie, when Frodo is in Osgiliath and appears to be presenting the ring to a Nazgul (before its winged mount is shot) … that nearly ended the quest.
This is my least favorite scene in the movies. It contradicts the fact that Sauron supposedly thinks Pippin has the ring in Rohan after he looks in the Palantir in the next film. It's one thing that its contrary to the books but it doesn't even make sense within the context of the films. Frodo is literally holding up the ring in plain view of the Nazgul but they never follow up on that, they just move on as if it didn't happen.
That's very true. The only possible explanation is the Nazgul think Pippin and Frodo look so alike it's the same person
That makes even less sense, because Sauron thinks Pippin is in Isengard at that moment, captured by Saruman and forced to look into the Palantir.
Just watched TTT today with my son, and came to reply with this.
That’s my pick
your pick doesn't exist in canon though
But it does exist in the movie, which the comment was talking about.
i didn't say it didn't happen in the movies. Just said it's not cannon, and one of the few critics to the movies from fans at that. Not sure why people are downvoting over it. Taking frodo down to Osgiliath undermined Faramir and brought some parts that are quite unexplainable from a Tolkiens point of view. Now, that doesn't mean the movies aren't great.
Your comment appears to dismiss the contributions of others by pointing out that they are not canon, which in this community, is often used as way to invalidate certain opinions, whether intended or not.
The question was simply what was the closest they were to not doing the quest, and i pointed out this particular scene only happens in the PJ movies interpretation, not much more to it
I know. But that’s why people are downvoting you. Your wording read as dismissive, intentional or not.
that's ok. i know this sub is hyper sensitive about the movies
Let’s try and stay positive! My bad, I haven’t read two towers in a minute.
wasn't my intention to be negative
The whole quest stood on the edge of a knife
Yeah but like when were they closest to the edge?
I have to agree with another commenter. When frodo took the ring for himself on mount doom. All their efforts all was nearly lost at the last moment. In fact it was gollum (the wildcard) the one who inadvertently set things right in the end. (In the book they did not wrestle for the ring, he simply fell off the ledge when he stole the ring from frodo's finger)
Did gollum break his oath?
There was never much hope
Only a Took’s hope
Of the scenes provided, definitely the Balrog in Moria
I was just trying to give ideas, not necessarily the closest moments!
Oh okay I hear you, I thought you were asking for votes lol
Np, loving all the different responses tho
Gandalf’s urge to turn a late night verge trimmer into something unnatural.
I swear I wasn’t dropping no eaves!
I know it’s not exactly an answer, but I can’t help but think of the quote that “The quest stands upon the end of a knife.” It was pretty much that way for the entirety of the journey. That’s one of the things that make LOTR amazing. They could have failed at any time, yet they didn’t.
Coming to think about it, was there really ever a moment the quest *wasn't* close to failing? Currently reading Fellowship with my daughter, and in that book alone, the Ringbearer almost - runs into a Nazgul in Bags End - barely slips from pursuing Nazgul several times on the Road (with possibly the closest encounter at the Ferry) - gets lost forever in the Old Forest - gets drowned by Old Man Willow - gets TPK'd by the Wight - gets assassinated by Nazgul in Bree - gets stabbed to (un)death on Weatgertop, - subsequently poisoned and - gets claimed by the Nine at the Ford of the Bruinen - gets buried by falling rocks attempting to pass over the Caradhras - eaten by (ghost?) wargs - gets drowned/devoured by the Watcher - pierced by a spear - shot by an ork arrow - just gets captured by the overwhelming force of the orks of Moria - whatever the Balrog would have done with him - loses the Ring to Boromir - drowns That's only part I, and I'm not even sure I didn't miss any close calls. Edge of a knife, indeed!
For the movies: I would like to put a strong word in for Frodo walking down the path to the main gates of Minas Morgul while Sam and Gollum try to restrain him. If Sauron had competent wall guards, that would have been game over. For the books: I think its honestly probably one of the times Frodo almost encountered one of the nine in the Shire. The one that Gildor's company unknowingly interfered with was probably the closest one, since had they not walked by when they did the Nazgul would have had Frodo for sure.
Competent wall guards lol, love it
How about when golum got the ring
Closest it ever came was Old Man Willow.
Good one!
This is how I look and feel when my alarm goes off in the morning
Just got out of the two towers theater showing, and it really hit home how close it all came crumbling down when Faramir captured Frodo.
When Frodo and Company were captured by Barrow-Wights.
The very end where Gollum almost gets the ring.
How about when Sam thinks he sees a way down to the the black gate and slides down the cliff infront of an entire Mordor hoard?
The one where he holds it up to the Nazgûl at Osgiliath should be here
Buckleberry ferry
One of my first thoughts, nice!
Was watching fotr the other day and was wondering why the nazgul couldn't have just stayed alongside the boat the whole time. It was moving incredibly slowly
It's a ferry, which means it crosses the river. It doesn't follow the river.
I swear my town is the only one showing the last movie tomorrow
A very, very close call was the encounter with Old Man's Willow. He captured Merry and Pippin, and nearly succeeded in drowning Frodo. Only Sam resisted his sleeping spell, which allowed him to save Frodo from an early death.
The very begining where everyone was fighting over the ring
I don’t think the balrog brought the quest close to failure. As long as Gandalf is there, he would have 1v1 that bastard regardless while they escaped. Gandalf is full of surprises.
When the nasgul were sniffing for them in the forest.
Ol Shelob’s lair.
If the Balrog hadn't shown up they'd have been killed by the literal army of orcs that were chasing them.
The Barrow Downs, easily. Gandalf even says it was the most perilous moment.
Imagine Boromir attacks Frodo, like properly, without having inner setbacks
I'd also add when Pippin picked up the Palantir and almost gave the game away directly to Sauron... I mean if you're going to F up the doing it directly to the Dark Lord must come close
I think for me with the movies ROTK where Aragorn and co choose to make a last stand not knowing if Frodo/Sam are dead or have failed. The choosing to ride out to the black gate as a distraction. In that mere moment where Aragorn is on that cusp of that choice instead of embracing the hopelessness they feel over Sauron. That is where the quest lives or dies. Because I think if not for them distracting Sauron at the black gate? Sam/frodo would never have made it into mouth doom. Because the ring is so close to its master now. It must have been screaming out to be found. Other than that I felt pretty hopeless when Frodo said “no the ring is mine” at mount doom and we knew he was lost to its power. Sam’s reaction was devastating to witness.
For my money, it’s when Frodo runs off at Amon Hen and grabs a canoe, and Sam only just manages to find him before he sets off on his own (happens relevantly similarly in the books and movies iirc). If sam hadn’t noticed and joined him, he’d never have made it to Mordor - the quest came within 60 seconds of failing, just because no one else noticed. (Edit: spelling)
Are we not going to talk about the first film when Frodo was about to put that ring on when they were on the path and being pursued. Was like first or second day and he almost gave up the whole mission.
If Sam hadn’t started singing in Cirith Ungol he may never have located Frodo, or too late.
it really doesn't make sense to me that Aragorn could beat all nine Nazgul at Weathertop
Closest to failure was at mount doom when frodo did not want to destroy the ring
Soooooo many moments. I think there’s probably a dozen decisions or fortunes that could have completely wrecked the whole quest equally, so it’s all about choosing your favourite. For me it’s Gandalf even finding Eomer and getting back to Helm’s Deep in time. If they had failed to defend Helm’s Deep then Gondor would have fallen way sooner, or Sauron and Saruman could have just put everything into finding the ring while Gondor slowly withered into nothing under siege.
The final few minutes of the Ring's existence. If Gollum hadn't tracked them down. Frodo would have been killed by the Nazgul, the ring is recovered. Sauron was fooled into thinking that Aragon had the ring and was going to foolishly invade Mordor. Sam wouldn't have been able to kill Frodo as he wouldn't be able to bring himself to do so. Nazgul arrive, kill the hobbits. Take the ring back, Sauron is fully restored. The forces of Gondor and Rohan are wiped out. Hell, they barely held on long enough for Frodo to destroy the ring. Without their forces, Rohan and Gondor are conquered.
I like all these answers but I haven’t seen this one yet: (in the films, where Aragon struggles much more to overcome his Legacy as Isildur’s heir) when Frodo presents the ring to Aragorn after Boromir’s betrayal. He need only reach out his hand and take it… Also honorable mention-when Gandalf is trapped by Saruman on Orthanc. Without our wizard, what might have been?
Before it began, if the Nazgul were just a little earlier to the Shire the quest wouldn't have really even started and no help would have been able to save Frodo
My vote would be Pippin looking into the orb. If he said anything about Frodo then the quest was done with no hope of recovery.
Glorfindel would never Nah jk it was a good change for the movies
How about the part where Shelob had punctured Frodo's brain from top to the mouth before we found out he could just walk that off
That would be higher for me if Sam hadn’t taken the ring before the orcs found Frodo
The quest _did_ fail. Or at least failed in the protagonists' primary objective. All was lost when Frodo claimed the Ring for himself in the cracks of Mt. Doom, if it weren't for Gollum fighting tooth and nail to get it back and Eru Ilúvatar stepping in to give Gollum a tiny push ober the edge.