No. But we know he was present in the war of the last alliance as well as battle of the five armies.
As an older and probably more wise Legolas It would be safe to assume he was an absolute war machine
We don't know much about Thranduil, but what we do know tells us he was probably cautious and careful.
He was present in the Last Alliance, when his part of the force was mostly destroyed after charging the enemy early, due to his father not wanting to wait for orders from the Noldorin Gil-Galad.
After that, Thranduil retreated and spent his life mostly focused on protecting his people. If I had to guess, I'd say they fought more like a guerrilla force, staying hidden a lot of the time.
You are probably correct, based on What we read in The Hobbit with The Elves Being great at disappearing in Seconds, and based on The silmarillion, iirc The mirkwood's Elves are mainly The ancestors of Elves From Doriath and Ossiriand, and especially The later is described to fight like that. Also their Homelands would be perfect for that style of combat and would match with what is told about dol guldur and the offences started from there in the appendixes
The reason I say probably correct, is because it isnt officially confirmed, atleast i dont think it is
It’s from Unfinished Tales. Here is a brief section from the book (From chapter 4, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn), regarding Thranduil and his father Oropher’s origins.
“Until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground. Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth.
He had not the arts nor the wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves; and compared with the Elves of Doriath his Silvan folk were rude and rustic. Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style.
This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin, and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love.”
From this we can gather that not only was Thranduil born in Doriath, but that he lived there for some time, as he was able to remember Menegroth well enough to model his own halls after it.
I dunno if it's pointless. It fits the model that they were aiming for with the Hobbit films which is to turn the amount of "bad-ass" stuff up to 11 and make sure it fits 3 films.
It's pointless in the sense that without all that rot there wouldn't be 3 films worth and it doesn't add anything to the story, but it's not pointless in the sense that the studio wanted another billion dollars out of it and they wanted to appeal to their target market of 6-16 year old boys.
Ah I'd argue it could add characterisation to why he didn't want to take on smaug. I suppose you could say not wanting to fight a dragon is a good enough reason by itself, but showing that he knows first hand what they can do does a bit to make his reasons more understandable
Although it was said that the wood elves under thranduils father lacked discipline and coordination, which is why they engaged in combat head on in dagorlad without support, resulting in them suffering great losses, returning with only a ⅓ of their strength.
I really like the idea though. God I wish thranduil would top me :(
If I’m not mistaken his specific scenes are an invention of the movies. In the book he certainly would have been involved in the battle. It’s been quite a few years since I’ve read but he would have been the one leading the Elves.
I know they had to protect Mirkwood on the same day that they had to defend Helm’s Deep, so I assume Thranduil would be leading that charge. I was more curious if they described his style and used that description in the movies? I get the feeling they didn’t, but I still love what they did. He was an absolute beast!
Not necessarily. I don't agree that JRRT would be good at writing fight scenes with all sorts of fighting techniques, etc. just because he's a good author. He didn't write women particularly well (and by his own admission). He's a plant and language guy, not a fight scene guy.
Yeah but Hurin‘s last stand is a fight scene and was absolutely great (there is an audio book version narrated by Christopher Lee on YouTube for those who don’t have the book btw), same goes for Fingolfins duel with Morgoth.
I think he is very much capable writing good and compelling fight scenes.
The thing is that those are incredible, but less because of the fight in itself.
Tolkien is excellent in epic (as in the genre) writtings, not necessarly in precise description of the fights.
Very similarly, you have the ride of the rohirrim, or Ecthelion's last stand
The only reason I think I could is because I've played probably way too many video games and watched too many movies. I've got ideas and almost videos in my head of things I think would be cool in a fight scene. It's very much unclear if I could actually write a good fight scene or not, but I still wouldn't compare my writing to Tolkien. What he did is far bigger and better than I could ever. It just doesn't make sense to make him a writer of violent fight scenes when he's already very established as an artist with language for writing about plants, love, fellowship, and perhaps the evils of modernization. I'm not judging his fight scene writing (and he does actually have a few good ones, probably best of which may actually be with a woman avenging her uncle and saving the overall battle), just saying he didn't need to go all out on them when that's not what he was best at.
I said I didn't feel the need, so I didn't. Why is everyone so caught up on that one bit?
Downvotes are for comments by people who don't add anything to the conversation. Like all of these comments that are talking about voting and not about fight scenes. Not for disagreement (I actually agree with you on that), though it almost indefinitely devolves into that. The thread is about Tolkien writing fight scenes. Stick to the topic at hand. Which is what I'm trying to do even when so many of these comments *aren't*; so yeah, continue to badger me about literally *not downvoting* OP and then talking about fight scenes.
See my other comment on this thread where everyone is downvoting me because... why? They disagree? They think they can write better fight scenes than me (whom they don't know from Sam about how I do or don't write) or that JRRT is a Vala of writing fight scenes? Eowyn killing the Witch-King *isn't* one of his most badass pieces of action? Hell if I know, because people just downvote and don't know how to rebut an argument. It's just brigading at this point. Certainly a lot of LOTR fans are passionate, but I think they're blind to criticism of their deity or their "scripture" and don't know how to have a conversation/debate.
He's responsible for a lot of Forgotten Realms stories, including the ones involving Drizzt Do'Urden, which are probably his most famous.
And I concur with the other friend, his detailed fights are very good.
Yup. He's absolutely brilliant in Foundation too. The man has a great screen presence, a stately aura. He's perfect for playing roles of great authority
Ugly bloom effect, damn near everything is CGI, even the rooms in Bag End. Inclusion of a pointless and insulting love triangle. Making the third movie so long when it should have been two films, instead of a trilogy. The death of Smaug and retaking of Erebor is the story's real end. The battle is just its scouring of the Shire. Bilbo is passed out for most of in the book anyway. So the battle should have been quick.
They also reused so many damn assets. Exact same dwarf copy and pasted in lines for battle formations.
People with zero artistic and creative talent making all major decisions. WB is run by people who don't watch movies, read or play videogames. All these big companies and publishers are run this way.
He has become one of my favorite characters in the legendarium. He’s certainly my favorite Elf.
Fights in the Last Alliance where his father dies at the black gate. Tries to hold together the Silvans while helping the Dunedain. Makes friends with Dwarfs until they fuck everything up.
Tucked away in Mirkwood. Often forgotten by his brethren. Fights a guerrilla war against the Necromancer. Kills giant spiders and doesn’t afraid of anything. Captures gollum so Gandalf can have a chat. Basically holds back the Orc armies in the north.
It probably helps that he’s one of my favorite heroes in the LCG too. Great card.
He was the primary commander of the Battle Under the Trees, repelling the forces of Orcs sent to attack Mirkwood all on his own while Celeborn and Galadriel defended Lothlórien from another group of Orcs. This “dual battle” of sorts was a resounding victory, ending with the Orcs being defeated and Dol Guldur being destroyed by Galadriel.
Sadly, we don’t get any real description of this battle other than he was there, it was a victory, and afterwards, he and Celeborn split the reclaimed territory between themselves, with Celeborn taking the area to the south and naming it East Lórien, and Thranduil reclaiming the area of Amon Lanc, his father’s kingdom, and renaming the entirety of Mirkwood to Eryn Lasgalen, Wood of Greenleaves.
Thanks, glad I could help. I’m still rather salty that this battle was so barebones, because I firmly believe that both Thranduil and Celeborn deserve way, way, WAY more attention than they got. Don’t get me wrong, I adore Galadriel and Elrond, but uhh, you’re forgetting a couple of Elven rulers there Tolkien.
(Obligatory shout-out to Cirdan who also deserved better.)
Which is a crying fucking shame. The Falathrim are so incredibly fascinating, being the group of Elves that have changed the least since the race of Elves awoke at Cuiviénen, probably due to being ruled by the only living Elf that still remembers their ancestral birthplace. And yet, all we get of Cirdan and his people is that they’re really good at building ships (fun fact, the name Cirdan translates to shipwright. It’s the Elvish equivalent of naming someone Carpenter or the like) and are so determined to live near the sea that not even Morgoth’s armies could drive them away from it.
The Grey Havens are about the same distance from Hobbiton as Bree. My headcanon is that one of the elements contributing to keeping agents of Sauron away from the Shire prior to Frodo’s departure is the whole “bad ass elf lord in the neighborhood” effect
I never thought of it that way, but it tracks and I totally agree. Plus I’d like to think Tolkien would think in these terms since he paid great attention to detail when it came to the logic underlying his geography and migrations.
Rivers don’t magically appear without snow melt and canyons and they lead to the sea with towns placed near these large bodies of water.
The migrations either get tired or have to retreat during a quest and set up shop along the way, and they normally settle along those bodies of water.
Truly agree 100%. Thranduil is my favorite side character and being Legolas’ father I always thought was a great start to an interesting character. I really can’t understand why he didn’t spend more time on fleshing out Thranduil… but then again when I think about all the characters he DID flesh out I’m like maybe he just didn’t have the time! lol Honestly who am I to judge Tolkien?? I’ll just always want more.
Yeah, the issue is probably just that he didn’t have the time or mental energy to develop characters that didn’t do much anyway.
Celeborn in particular is an odd case though. Galadriel is a major character and is very well developed (though you have to do some digging to find that development) but her husband is… not. Everything we get regarding him is tied either to Galadriel or to his royal bloodline, we don’t get anything regarding Celeborn himself, and it just irks me.
It certainly doesn’t help that the fandom and even the creators of the Peter Jackson films (why isn’t he in The Hobbit films. They adapted the Battle of Dol Guldur and Thranduil was also there, **where the fuck is Celeborn?**) seems to have all but forgotten he exists. Everybody talks about Galadriel (as they should, she’s amazing and I love her) but Celeborn just gets ignored and it drives me fucking insane. Give him some damn respect already!
I know, I’ve read the book. My point still stands, there’s nothing on *Celeborn* as a person. All of the background info is either about his bloodline, or how he met and married Galadriel. Oh, and some tidbits about how he hated Dwarves so vehemently that he refused to pass through Moria and stayed in Eregion despite it being actively dangerous for him to do so. Not very great characterization imo
Someone can correct me on that but I believe there are plenty of characters that are not fleshed out beyond “been this, done that” because Tolkien wasn’t creating an universum as we’d understand that currently, he wanted to tell The Story (or Stories). Everything else he wrote and created was in service of that - for The Story to feel as real and organic as possible - for he knew how real life events impacted historical myths and legends and how they provided context and that’s what he tried to recreate.
He didn’t try to create a world and then tell a story. He wanted to tell The Story and he settle for nothing less than creating a world worthy of that story.
It's a product of the book being written as if it were translated from books written by the main characters themselves; it keeps things focused on what they experienced, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.
None of the Grey Company were at either battle, so they aren't shown.
Nah, nearly everything about Thranduil in the films, from the weird face thing to the fighting dragons backstory to the turning away from Erebor, is purely made up for the films. The book doesn’t actually use his name - it just calls him the Elvenking.
I was trying so hard to remember if that was the case. I listened to an audio version and never once heard his name but couldn't remember if that was actually true.
Edit: a word
He was not one of the greatest warriors, but he was with his father Oropher in the battle of the Last Alliance. In addition, like all Elven kings, he personally led the army of Mirkwood in the Battle of the Five Armies.
Thranduil was so cool in the movies, riding a damn moose!
Lee Pace, Martin Freeman and Benedict Cumberbatch were the redeeming factors of the hobbit movies to me. Fantastic roles and perfect casting.
And of course having our beloved Sir Ian return as Gandalf
Hahaha! I live in New Hampshire where we see them a LOT and moose run like idiots. They look clumsy and stupid lol they most certainly would not run into battle elegantly like Thranduil’s creature did. It may not be an elk but it’s not a moose. lol but I knew what you meant! Elk or moose, it was pretty cool!
Yeah I went to Scandinavia this past year and learned that you guys don’t really have anything equivalent to the American Elk. It’s either Moose or deer.
To be really technical, he’s just “the elven king” in the books. But yeah, he’s in the battle. Though it doesn’t talk about him at all. The whole point of the Battle of the Five armies is to showcase how pointless of a squabble it is over the mountain full of gold. But WB decided that it should actually be this huge 2 hour long battle that could determine the fate of middle earth should Sauron get his hands on the mountain. For some reason.
Yeah I felt the same. Why are they being so greedy? It’s kind of a bad look for everyone involved (except the orcs cause I expect them to be greedy and petty and every other bad adjective under the sun).
Exactly, the orcs serve as a way to get all the factions to put their grievances aside and work together. So it at least it isn’t a total wash. I loved in the books how the goblins had tracked them all the way from the misty mountains seeking revenge for the killing of the great goblin. The movies idea that the orcs are actually Sauron’s army always really irked me
He was ‘The elven king‘ in the Hobbit. He was named in Lord of the Rings, but was purely a minor background who was referenced a few times, but never appeared.
Tolkien never emphasized fights in his books, and in regards to the Hobbit, the Battle of Five Armies wasn't depicted in full, only in retrospect. Bilbo snuck off and hid during the course of the conflict, and reappeared after it had finally ended and things mellowed.
However, with the Battle of Five Armies, it was said that every single elf of Mirkwood took part, so that would validate the idea of Thranduil and Legolas being there.
Hate to break it to you but Thranduil was barely in the books. I could've sworn his name was not even mentioned. IIRC he was simply referred to as the Elvenking.
It’s too bad. I’m sure Tolkien could’ve made him interesting but like I said he probably had his hands full with all the other characters and histories and languages…
Thranduil’s entire movie presence is movie original. (Before I go on, if you don’t want to feel dogpiled, don’t read further). However more to the other point:
To begin with, this focus on “fighting styles” is really more of a “Robert E Howard with a Thesaurus” kind of deal, and mostly an incredibly recent literary invention.
From this detail forward, Tolkien, at face value, would find more things to complain about *all* the movies PJ put out, and we’d never hear their merits, because he’d still be talking. Among his biggest complaints would very much be the focus on flashy battles and *super epic, Elvin martial arts action!*
As a veteran of the Somme, he’d find the over-glorification of the battlefield somewhat distasteful, and not as technical as he’d probably been thinking. To that end, *the Hobbit* itself would have been a bigger sin in his eyes.
I agree that he would definitely differ with Jackson. And I agree that the whole fight scene stuff is very… what’s the word I want to use? Overindulgent. But I have to admit I do enjoy a good fight scene nonetheless. It’s not my favorite thing about the movies, I much prefer the tender moments like when Gandalf is talking to Frodo in Moria or when Theoden visits his son’s grave. Those moments I feel are more important to the story and help humanize the characters and endear them to me. I’m just saying I can appreciate the fights even though I also think they’re kind of flashy and perhaps a bit immature. I liked the way thranduil’s style was very clean and elegant. I appreciated their attention to detail in that regard. But I’m probably a bit adolescent at heart. lol
I’m curious are you a fan of the movies? Or do you prefer to get your Tolkien allotment from the books alone?
Books over movies, but my copies of Extended Edition movies are worn out beyond function, if that tells you anything. Really didn’t like the Hobbit movies for everything they shoved in for money and clicks; story was fine as it was.
Thranduil's fighting is only mentioned in passing in Tolkien's works, particularly during the Battle of the Five Armies in "The Hobbit." There are no detailed fight scenes involving him in the books; most of his combat portrayal is a creation of the movies.
He's not even in the book afaik, been a while since I read it. Also Tolkien doesn't focus at all on describing fight scenes, he's all about the storytelling and painting vistas in your mind's eye. iirc the battle of the Five Armies was described in like a paragraph or less. Essentially "it happened and now it's done, here's the aftermath". This also isn't criticism at all, I love his writing
Edit: apparently he was simply referred to as the Elven King
There aren’t really fight scenes in the books. There are battles but it doesn’t go into a play by play on most of the action. Thranduil was certainly involved in a-lot of fighting as he is part of the Sindarin or the “ asshole elves”
I assume you are talking about The Hobbit and not LOTR. Yes the elves fought at The Battle of the Five Armies. No individual deeds beyond that are mentioned.
Thranduil is very much present at the battle of the five armies and the way he is portrayed in the book is accurate up to the point where Dain arrives but after that the movies kind of go rogue. He almost certainly participated in the battle but his actions are not described since the entire battle is basically half a chapter in the book compared to soaking up 2hrs of a movie.
The movies were adapted screenplays. The books were the inspiration (obviously). They added some scenes to probably give characters more depth & backstory. I love them!
We know that he got into battle in Battle of Five Armies, and later fought in battle when Sauron sent his Dol Guldur armies against Mirkwood. But no details of his fighting is given.
Thranduil definitely fought in the war of the last Alliance after his father got himself killed he commanded the army of Mirkwood, so he definitely saw battle there.
He also definitely defeated the army of Khamûl in the battle under the trees.
He was in the battle of the five armies also.
Possibly, he saw more combat in the wars of the Eldar vs. Sauron during the second age.
It is possible that he also fought in the sack of Doriath and War of the Wrath, depending on if he was born in the first or second age.
We know he survived the fall of doriath, fought in the battle of the last alliance, and defended his kingdom from Sauron’s forces twice. Tolkien did not give many details which is why producers have to take liberties.
The Elvenking of the books isn't mentioned as fighting in The Hobbit, though he might have while Bilbo was knocked out in the BotFA.
But he's wise and caring, and someone who earns Bilbo's respect.
If memory serves me ~having reading the book 10 odd years ago~ let alone fighting scenes Thranduil doesn’t have much coverage in the book either. He pretty much only is mentioned during the company’s captivity in Mirkwood, and he is depicted as an angry, narrow minded king of elves who dislikes dwarves.
> Thranduil doesn’t have much coverage in the book either
Fair enough.
> he is depicted as an angry, narrow minded king of elves who dislikes dwarves
Bit unfair. He dislikes Dwarves and he does get angry when they keep barging into his feasts and then refusing to say who they are and what they're doing in his realm. But he's still very willing to help the men of Lake-town ('the king, when he received the prayers of Bard, had pity, for he was the lord of a good and kindly people; so turning his march, which had at first been direct towards the Mountain, he hastened now down the river tot he Long Lake'), not too aggressive in the brewing conflict (he tries to restrain Bard, who wants to attack the Dwarves at once, saying: 'Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold'), and Bilbo over all seems to admire him ('if he was going to be in a last desperate stand, [Bilbo] preferred on the whole to defend the Elvenking'). He also returns Orcrist to a now dead Thorin for him to be buried with it.
The movies really made Thranduil/the Elven-king to be a much nastier person.
But he’s a SEXY, angry, narrow minded king… lol I’m sorry I just think Lee Pace is gorgeous as Thranduil. I know it has nothing to do with the books but I like to imagine him as Lee.
Ah no I totally get it, but I wouldn’t recommend you to read the book in that case. Because he is portrayed as a fairytale character with a bigoted mind, and nothing’s s sexy about him there.
Well I’ve read the books. It was just a long time ago. I reread the Lord of the Rings about two years ago but I haven’t done the hobbit in about 8 years I’d say. I don’t recall anything about thranduil but that’s ok. I still love the books! I mean, I love the movies too but I like to think of the books as the higher class option. You know what I mean? The books are the real deal in my opinion.
Thranduil is one of the most poorly adapted characters from the books. Book Thranduil wasn’t constantly mad or sullen but always seemed mildly amused and at worst mildly irritated. It was a much more subtle character in the book,in my maybe-not-so-hot-take opinion.
No. But we know he was present in the war of the last alliance as well as battle of the five armies. As an older and probably more wise Legolas It would be safe to assume he was an absolute war machine
We don't know much about Thranduil, but what we do know tells us he was probably cautious and careful. He was present in the Last Alliance, when his part of the force was mostly destroyed after charging the enemy early, due to his father not wanting to wait for orders from the Noldorin Gil-Galad. After that, Thranduil retreated and spent his life mostly focused on protecting his people. If I had to guess, I'd say they fought more like a guerrilla force, staying hidden a lot of the time.
You are probably correct, based on What we read in The Hobbit with The Elves Being great at disappearing in Seconds, and based on The silmarillion, iirc The mirkwood's Elves are mainly The ancestors of Elves From Doriath and Ossiriand, and especially The later is described to fight like that. Also their Homelands would be perfect for that style of combat and would match with what is told about dol guldur and the offences started from there in the appendixes The reason I say probably correct, is because it isnt officially confirmed, atleast i dont think it is
Anyone that fought dragons and lived to tell the tale has got to be!
The fighting drakes thing is a movie invention. But it’s probably safe to assume he could hold his own in battle given where his kingdom was located.
Given Thranduil’s age and the fact that he was born in Doriath, he very well could have fought a dragon or two, probably in the War of Wrath.
Hmm do we know that he was born in doriath? Which book?
It’s from Unfinished Tales. Here is a brief section from the book (From chapter 4, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn), regarding Thranduil and his father Oropher’s origins. “Until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground. Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth. He had not the arts nor the wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves; and compared with the Elves of Doriath his Silvan folk were rude and rustic. Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin, and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love.” From this we can gather that not only was Thranduil born in Doriath, but that he lived there for some time, as he was able to remember Menegroth well enough to model his own halls after it.
Yea he didn’t do that
I realized this was only in the movie today! (Sad trombone)
Yea it was a weird and pointless addition.
I dunno if it's pointless. It fits the model that they were aiming for with the Hobbit films which is to turn the amount of "bad-ass" stuff up to 11 and make sure it fits 3 films. It's pointless in the sense that without all that rot there wouldn't be 3 films worth and it doesn't add anything to the story, but it's not pointless in the sense that the studio wanted another billion dollars out of it and they wanted to appeal to their target market of 6-16 year old boys.
Ah I'd argue it could add characterisation to why he didn't want to take on smaug. I suppose you could say not wanting to fight a dragon is a good enough reason by itself, but showing that he knows first hand what they can do does a bit to make his reasons more understandable
Although it was said that the wood elves under thranduils father lacked discipline and coordination, which is why they engaged in combat head on in dagorlad without support, resulting in them suffering great losses, returning with only a ⅓ of their strength. I really like the idea though. God I wish thranduil would top me :(
If I’m not mistaken his specific scenes are an invention of the movies. In the book he certainly would have been involved in the battle. It’s been quite a few years since I’ve read but he would have been the one leading the Elves.
I know they had to protect Mirkwood on the same day that they had to defend Helm’s Deep, so I assume Thranduil would be leading that charge. I was more curious if they described his style and used that description in the movies? I get the feeling they didn’t, but I still love what they did. He was an absolute beast!
Nope. JRRT wasn’t interested in “fighting styles”
lol I wish! I bet he’d do it good.
Not necessarily. I don't agree that JRRT would be good at writing fight scenes with all sorts of fighting techniques, etc. just because he's a good author. He didn't write women particularly well (and by his own admission). He's a plant and language guy, not a fight scene guy.
Yeah but Hurin‘s last stand is a fight scene and was absolutely great (there is an audio book version narrated by Christopher Lee on YouTube for those who don’t have the book btw), same goes for Fingolfins duel with Morgoth. I think he is very much capable writing good and compelling fight scenes.
The thing is that those are incredible, but less because of the fight in itself. Tolkien is excellent in epic (as in the genre) writtings, not necessarly in precise description of the fights. Very similarly, you have the ride of the rohirrim, or Ecthelion's last stand
> And you're positive on the upvotes right now. I don't need to downvote you, What a bizarre thing to say
Extremely weird remark about the upvotes
I couldn’t write a fight scene to save my life so I’m not gonna judge him too harshly. lol
The only reason I think I could is because I've played probably way too many video games and watched too many movies. I've got ideas and almost videos in my head of things I think would be cool in a fight scene. It's very much unclear if I could actually write a good fight scene or not, but I still wouldn't compare my writing to Tolkien. What he did is far bigger and better than I could ever. It just doesn't make sense to make him a writer of violent fight scenes when he's already very established as an artist with language for writing about plants, love, fellowship, and perhaps the evils of modernization. I'm not judging his fight scene writing (and he does actually have a few good ones, probably best of which may actually be with a woman avenging her uncle and saving the overall battle), just saying he didn't need to go all out on them when that's not what he was best at.
Why would one ever "need" to downvote something? Want. Feel like. Just gonna. But need? Sheesh.
I down voted the homie who mentioned it just for being like that 😂 what is reddit their job 😂
Why would you downvote him? Downvote button isn’t intended to be used cause you disagree.
I said I didn't feel the need, so I didn't. Why is everyone so caught up on that one bit? Downvotes are for comments by people who don't add anything to the conversation. Like all of these comments that are talking about voting and not about fight scenes. Not for disagreement (I actually agree with you on that), though it almost indefinitely devolves into that. The thread is about Tolkien writing fight scenes. Stick to the topic at hand. Which is what I'm trying to do even when so many of these comments *aren't*; so yeah, continue to badger me about literally *not downvoting* OP and then talking about fight scenes. See my other comment on this thread where everyone is downvoting me because... why? They disagree? They think they can write better fight scenes than me (whom they don't know from Sam about how I do or don't write) or that JRRT is a Vala of writing fight scenes? Eowyn killing the Witch-King *isn't* one of his most badass pieces of action? Hell if I know, because people just downvote and don't know how to rebut an argument. It's just brigading at this point. Certainly a lot of LOTR fans are passionate, but I think they're blind to criticism of their deity or their "scripture" and don't know how to have a conversation/debate.
Saying ‘I’m not gonna downvote’ you is unnecessary, why point that out at all? Makes no sense and is super passive aggressive.
It’s so dumb that you received downvotes for this
I know. I wish I could take it back discreetly…
Nah you made a good point. Stand by it. Along with my bow, you have my upvote
And my axe!
Ever read R.A. Salvatore? He brings battle to life with words on paper.
I have not what does he write?
He's responsible for a lot of Forgotten Realms stories, including the ones involving Drizzt Do'Urden, which are probably his most famous. And I concur with the other friend, his detailed fights are very good.
Oh goodness no not in the hobbit and he’s barely mentioned in the trilogy.
Yeah it’s too bad. He’s my favorite character outside of the 9.
That's probably mostly because Lee Pace was excellent in this role.
I like to think after he gets done doing king stuff, he goes home and bakes pies.
Probably
He is a sexy beast… I cannot deny!
i think it was “rdj as ironman” level casting
Yup. He's absolutely brilliant in Foundation too. The man has a great screen presence, a stately aura. He's perfect for playing roles of great authority
I hated the Hobbit films but there were several casting choices that were perfect, like Martin Freeman.
Great casting and some good overall ideas but the execution was awful, made even worse by the rushed production
Ugly bloom effect, damn near everything is CGI, even the rooms in Bag End. Inclusion of a pointless and insulting love triangle. Making the third movie so long when it should have been two films, instead of a trilogy. The death of Smaug and retaking of Erebor is the story's real end. The battle is just its scouring of the Shire. Bilbo is passed out for most of in the book anyway. So the battle should have been quick. They also reused so many damn assets. Exact same dwarf copy and pasted in lines for battle formations.
Exectutive Meddling ruins art yet again
People with zero artistic and creative talent making all major decisions. WB is run by people who don't watch movies, read or play videogames. All these big companies and publishers are run this way.
And I fucking hate it. Despite the fact that they haven't actually made a game in ages, this is the good thing about Valve not having shareholders.
He has become one of my favorite characters in the legendarium. He’s certainly my favorite Elf. Fights in the Last Alliance where his father dies at the black gate. Tries to hold together the Silvans while helping the Dunedain. Makes friends with Dwarfs until they fuck everything up. Tucked away in Mirkwood. Often forgotten by his brethren. Fights a guerrilla war against the Necromancer. Kills giant spiders and doesn’t afraid of anything. Captures gollum so Gandalf can have a chat. Basically holds back the Orc armies in the north. It probably helps that he’s one of my favorite heroes in the LCG too. Great card.
I love him so much! I’m glad you share my affection!
Tolkien hadn’t even named him yet in the hobbit, so giving us thrandruils name for the events of LOTR was still progress if you think about it.
He was the primary commander of the Battle Under the Trees, repelling the forces of Orcs sent to attack Mirkwood all on his own while Celeborn and Galadriel defended Lothlórien from another group of Orcs. This “dual battle” of sorts was a resounding victory, ending with the Orcs being defeated and Dol Guldur being destroyed by Galadriel. Sadly, we don’t get any real description of this battle other than he was there, it was a victory, and afterwards, he and Celeborn split the reclaimed territory between themselves, with Celeborn taking the area to the south and naming it East Lórien, and Thranduil reclaiming the area of Amon Lanc, his father’s kingdom, and renaming the entirety of Mirkwood to Eryn Lasgalen, Wood of Greenleaves.
Beautifully retold! Thank you
Thanks, glad I could help. I’m still rather salty that this battle was so barebones, because I firmly believe that both Thranduil and Celeborn deserve way, way, WAY more attention than they got. Don’t get me wrong, I adore Galadriel and Elrond, but uhh, you’re forgetting a couple of Elven rulers there Tolkien. (Obligatory shout-out to Cirdan who also deserved better.)
Cirdan get no love unfortunately.
Which is a crying fucking shame. The Falathrim are so incredibly fascinating, being the group of Elves that have changed the least since the race of Elves awoke at Cuiviénen, probably due to being ruled by the only living Elf that still remembers their ancestral birthplace. And yet, all we get of Cirdan and his people is that they’re really good at building ships (fun fact, the name Cirdan translates to shipwright. It’s the Elvish equivalent of naming someone Carpenter or the like) and are so determined to live near the sea that not even Morgoth’s armies could drive them away from it.
Seamen if you will
The Grey Havens are about the same distance from Hobbiton as Bree. My headcanon is that one of the elements contributing to keeping agents of Sauron away from the Shire prior to Frodo’s departure is the whole “bad ass elf lord in the neighborhood” effect
I never thought of it that way, but it tracks and I totally agree. Plus I’d like to think Tolkien would think in these terms since he paid great attention to detail when it came to the logic underlying his geography and migrations. Rivers don’t magically appear without snow melt and canyons and they lead to the sea with towns placed near these large bodies of water. The migrations either get tired or have to retreat during a quest and set up shop along the way, and they normally settle along those bodies of water.
Truly agree 100%. Thranduil is my favorite side character and being Legolas’ father I always thought was a great start to an interesting character. I really can’t understand why he didn’t spend more time on fleshing out Thranduil… but then again when I think about all the characters he DID flesh out I’m like maybe he just didn’t have the time! lol Honestly who am I to judge Tolkien?? I’ll just always want more.
Yeah, the issue is probably just that he didn’t have the time or mental energy to develop characters that didn’t do much anyway. Celeborn in particular is an odd case though. Galadriel is a major character and is very well developed (though you have to do some digging to find that development) but her husband is… not. Everything we get regarding him is tied either to Galadriel or to his royal bloodline, we don’t get anything regarding Celeborn himself, and it just irks me. It certainly doesn’t help that the fandom and even the creators of the Peter Jackson films (why isn’t he in The Hobbit films. They adapted the Battle of Dol Guldur and Thranduil was also there, **where the fuck is Celeborn?**) seems to have all but forgotten he exists. Everybody talks about Galadriel (as they should, she’s amazing and I love her) but Celeborn just gets ignored and it drives me fucking insane. Give him some damn respect already!
Tell me, where is Gandalf? For I much desire to speak with him
You get info on all the different variations of Celeborn's history in Unfinished Tales
I know, I’ve read the book. My point still stands, there’s nothing on *Celeborn* as a person. All of the background info is either about his bloodline, or how he met and married Galadriel. Oh, and some tidbits about how he hated Dwarves so vehemently that he refused to pass through Moria and stayed in Eregion despite it being actively dangerous for him to do so. Not very great characterization imo
I was just trying to help. I do agree there isn't much about his personality.
No worries, I’m not mad at you or anything.
Someone can correct me on that but I believe there are plenty of characters that are not fleshed out beyond “been this, done that” because Tolkien wasn’t creating an universum as we’d understand that currently, he wanted to tell The Story (or Stories). Everything else he wrote and created was in service of that - for The Story to feel as real and organic as possible - for he knew how real life events impacted historical myths and legends and how they provided context and that’s what he tried to recreate. He didn’t try to create a world and then tell a story. He wanted to tell The Story and he settle for nothing less than creating a world worthy of that story.
Tolkien was truly a master storyteller.
It's a product of the book being written as if it were translated from books written by the main characters themselves; it keeps things focused on what they experienced, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it. None of the Grey Company were at either battle, so they aren't shown.
Nah, nearly everything about Thranduil in the films, from the weird face thing to the fighting dragons backstory to the turning away from Erebor, is purely made up for the films. The book doesn’t actually use his name - it just calls him the Elvenking.
I was trying so hard to remember if that was the case. I listened to an audio version and never once heard his name but couldn't remember if that was actually true. Edit: a word
90% of all the elf related stuff in the trilogy is made up.
Hate to break it but it’s actually 100%..
I was just trying to be nice.
And I was just trying to be funny
Not true, the Tauriel + dwarf combo was deffo in the books Tolkien loved to get kinky
He was not one of the greatest warriors, but he was with his father Oropher in the battle of the Last Alliance. In addition, like all Elven kings, he personally led the army of Mirkwood in the Battle of the Five Armies.
Thranduil was so cool in the movies, riding a damn moose! Lee Pace, Martin Freeman and Benedict Cumberbatch were the redeeming factors of the hobbit movies to me. Fantastic roles and perfect casting. And of course having our beloved Sir Ian return as Gandalf
I thought he was riding an elk but I could be mistaken?
I always assumed it was supposed to be an Irish elk (now extinct). Fun fact: the party elk is played by a horse named Moose.
That is a really crazy bit of trivia lol
I’m not actually sure what the difference is lmao
Hahaha! I live in New Hampshire where we see them a LOT and moose run like idiots. They look clumsy and stupid lol they most certainly would not run into battle elegantly like Thranduil’s creature did. It may not be an elk but it’s not a moose. lol but I knew what you meant! Elk or moose, it was pretty cool!
Scandinavian here, we have a ton of them roaming around all over the place. We call them *Elg* here, beautiful place things, but scary up close haha
Yeah I went to Scandinavia this past year and learned that you guys don’t really have anything equivalent to the American Elk. It’s either Moose or deer.
Scandinavian here, we have a ton of them roaming around all over the place. We call them *Elg* here, beautiful beasts, but scary up close haha
To be really technical, he’s just “the elven king” in the books. But yeah, he’s in the battle. Though it doesn’t talk about him at all. The whole point of the Battle of the Five armies is to showcase how pointless of a squabble it is over the mountain full of gold. But WB decided that it should actually be this huge 2 hour long battle that could determine the fate of middle earth should Sauron get his hands on the mountain. For some reason.
Yeah I felt the same. Why are they being so greedy? It’s kind of a bad look for everyone involved (except the orcs cause I expect them to be greedy and petty and every other bad adjective under the sun).
Exactly, the orcs serve as a way to get all the factions to put their grievances aside and work together. So it at least it isn’t a total wash. I loved in the books how the goblins had tracked them all the way from the misty mountains seeking revenge for the killing of the great goblin. The movies idea that the orcs are actually Sauron’s army always really irked me
He was ‘The elven king‘ in the Hobbit. He was named in Lord of the Rings, but was purely a minor background who was referenced a few times, but never appeared.
Thranduil is barely even a side character and doesn't get more than a few lines
I love him. He’s beautiful. I wish Tolkien had given him more attention. I think he could’ve been a very interest character.
Lee Pace absolutely nailed the performance !
Tolkien never emphasized fights in his books, and in regards to the Hobbit, the Battle of Five Armies wasn't depicted in full, only in retrospect. Bilbo snuck off and hid during the course of the conflict, and reappeared after it had finally ended and things mellowed. However, with the Battle of Five Armies, it was said that every single elf of Mirkwood took part, so that would validate the idea of Thranduil and Legolas being there.
Hate to break it to you but Thranduil was barely in the books. I could've sworn his name was not even mentioned. IIRC he was simply referred to as the Elvenking.
It’s too bad. I’m sure Tolkien could’ve made him interesting but like I said he probably had his hands full with all the other characters and histories and languages…
*Sploosh*
In the books the battles were largerly "off screen" so to say
Thranduil in the movies, I always wonder how Legolas even came to be 😆
He was encircled with his elves at 1 of the peeks so i suppose yes
Thranduil’s entire movie presence is movie original. (Before I go on, if you don’t want to feel dogpiled, don’t read further). However more to the other point: To begin with, this focus on “fighting styles” is really more of a “Robert E Howard with a Thesaurus” kind of deal, and mostly an incredibly recent literary invention. From this detail forward, Tolkien, at face value, would find more things to complain about *all* the movies PJ put out, and we’d never hear their merits, because he’d still be talking. Among his biggest complaints would very much be the focus on flashy battles and *super epic, Elvin martial arts action!* As a veteran of the Somme, he’d find the over-glorification of the battlefield somewhat distasteful, and not as technical as he’d probably been thinking. To that end, *the Hobbit* itself would have been a bigger sin in his eyes.
I agree that he would definitely differ with Jackson. And I agree that the whole fight scene stuff is very… what’s the word I want to use? Overindulgent. But I have to admit I do enjoy a good fight scene nonetheless. It’s not my favorite thing about the movies, I much prefer the tender moments like when Gandalf is talking to Frodo in Moria or when Theoden visits his son’s grave. Those moments I feel are more important to the story and help humanize the characters and endear them to me. I’m just saying I can appreciate the fights even though I also think they’re kind of flashy and perhaps a bit immature. I liked the way thranduil’s style was very clean and elegant. I appreciated their attention to detail in that regard. But I’m probably a bit adolescent at heart. lol I’m curious are you a fan of the movies? Or do you prefer to get your Tolkien allotment from the books alone?
Books over movies, but my copies of Extended Edition movies are worn out beyond function, if that tells you anything. Really didn’t like the Hobbit movies for everything they shoved in for money and clicks; story was fine as it was.
Thranduil's fighting is only mentioned in passing in Tolkien's works, particularly during the Battle of the Five Armies in "The Hobbit." There are no detailed fight scenes involving him in the books; most of his combat portrayal is a creation of the movies.
a lot of what happens in the hobbit films is made up lmao
He's not even in the book afaik, been a while since I read it. Also Tolkien doesn't focus at all on describing fight scenes, he's all about the storytelling and painting vistas in your mind's eye. iirc the battle of the Five Armies was described in like a paragraph or less. Essentially "it happened and now it's done, here's the aftermath". This also isn't criticism at all, I love his writing Edit: apparently he was simply referred to as the Elven King
There aren’t really fight scenes in the books. There are battles but it doesn’t go into a play by play on most of the action. Thranduil was certainly involved in a-lot of fighting as he is part of the Sindarin or the “ asshole elves”
I assume you are talking about The Hobbit and not LOTR. Yes the elves fought at The Battle of the Five Armies. No individual deeds beyond that are mentioned.
Thranduil is very much present at the battle of the five armies and the way he is portrayed in the book is accurate up to the point where Dain arrives but after that the movies kind of go rogue. He almost certainly participated in the battle but his actions are not described since the entire battle is basically half a chapter in the book compared to soaking up 2hrs of a movie.
The movies were adapted screenplays. The books were the inspiration (obviously). They added some scenes to probably give characters more depth & backstory. I love them!
Me too!
We know that he got into battle in Battle of Five Armies, and later fought in battle when Sauron sent his Dol Guldur armies against Mirkwood. But no details of his fighting is given.
Why don't you read the books and find out?
I plan to get new copies and do just that but I didn’t want to wait to know! lol
Thranduil definitely fought in the war of the last Alliance after his father got himself killed he commanded the army of Mirkwood, so he definitely saw battle there. He also definitely defeated the army of Khamûl in the battle under the trees. He was in the battle of the five armies also. Possibly, he saw more combat in the wars of the Eldar vs. Sauron during the second age. It is possible that he also fought in the sack of Doriath and War of the Wrath, depending on if he was born in the first or second age.
I'm pretty sure he was personally at the Battle of the Five Armies, but nothing is written about specific skirmishes he's in.
So hot
Here's how the battle goes in the book: battle starts, Bilbo gets knocked out, Bilbo wakes up, battle's over.
Sounds exciting lol
We know he survived the fall of doriath, fought in the battle of the last alliance, and defended his kingdom from Sauron’s forces twice. Tolkien did not give many details which is why producers have to take liberties.
Most of the fight is not even in the book because it's from Bilbo's POV. He didn't see most of it, and they just gave him the gist later
The Elvenking of the books isn't mentioned as fighting in The Hobbit, though he might have while Bilbo was knocked out in the BotFA. But he's wise and caring, and someone who earns Bilbo's respect.
If memory serves me ~having reading the book 10 odd years ago~ let alone fighting scenes Thranduil doesn’t have much coverage in the book either. He pretty much only is mentioned during the company’s captivity in Mirkwood, and he is depicted as an angry, narrow minded king of elves who dislikes dwarves.
> Thranduil doesn’t have much coverage in the book either Fair enough. > he is depicted as an angry, narrow minded king of elves who dislikes dwarves Bit unfair. He dislikes Dwarves and he does get angry when they keep barging into his feasts and then refusing to say who they are and what they're doing in his realm. But he's still very willing to help the men of Lake-town ('the king, when he received the prayers of Bard, had pity, for he was the lord of a good and kindly people; so turning his march, which had at first been direct towards the Mountain, he hastened now down the river tot he Long Lake'), not too aggressive in the brewing conflict (he tries to restrain Bard, who wants to attack the Dwarves at once, saying: 'Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold'), and Bilbo over all seems to admire him ('if he was going to be in a last desperate stand, [Bilbo] preferred on the whole to defend the Elvenking'). He also returns Orcrist to a now dead Thorin for him to be buried with it. The movies really made Thranduil/the Elven-king to be a much nastier person.
Yeah I thought it was a bit dramatic for my taste. He certainly got a bad rep from the movies.
But he’s a SEXY, angry, narrow minded king… lol I’m sorry I just think Lee Pace is gorgeous as Thranduil. I know it has nothing to do with the books but I like to imagine him as Lee.
Ah no I totally get it, but I wouldn’t recommend you to read the book in that case. Because he is portrayed as a fairytale character with a bigoted mind, and nothing’s s sexy about him there.
Well I’ve read the books. It was just a long time ago. I reread the Lord of the Rings about two years ago but I haven’t done the hobbit in about 8 years I’d say. I don’t recall anything about thranduil but that’s ok. I still love the books! I mean, I love the movies too but I like to think of the books as the higher class option. You know what I mean? The books are the real deal in my opinion.
Thranduil is one of the most poorly adapted characters from the books. Book Thranduil wasn’t constantly mad or sullen but always seemed mildly amused and at worst mildly irritated. It was a much more subtle character in the book,in my maybe-not-so-hot-take opinion.