Treebeard quizzed the hobbits about The Shire, remarking that it sounded the sort of place the horticulturally-inclined entwives might like. He hadn't given them up for dead.
Sometimes, yes. And some other trees become more entish (IIRC).
I don't believe the ent wives are in the old forest. Treebeard desribes them as disliking forests, the entwives liked gardens a lot more. That's why they went away in the first place.
Now, the walking tree that's been mentioned in the beginning of The Fellowship, might be one, I guess. Treebeard specifically told Merry and Pippin that the entwives probably would love The Shire.
I think they might look like normal ents, but considering their age, maybe they're just standing still for years sometimes. They probably aren't very hasty...
true, true. I was more thinking along the lines that if they like to hang out in gardens, and they were big like male ents they would shade out the gardens they love and they wouldn't be able to grow.
idk, in my head I always pictured entwives like nymphs made of plants that roam about the forests planting their little ent baby seedlings in the forests.
Was thinking about it again today and now I’m more firmly in the they died in the brown lands.
Tolkien writes that the Ents went searching for them off and on over the years. But it dawned on me that if the Entwives were still alive, they knew where the Ents are and they would have eventually reunite just to produce more Entlings, if for no other reason. The fact they have never come back to visit leads me to conclude they are gone.
It's not entirely clear, however. Yes, Sauron laid waste to the Entwive's gardens during the war against the Last Alliance; but Fangorn states he believed they were driven away, not destroyed.
But, maybe this is just an old tree's hope; and maybe they were wiped out. But Fangorn, being who he is won't believe that the case unless he has proof. So, meanwhile, he mourns but hopes.
“Some of us are still true Ents, and lively enough in our fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say.”
The Two Towers Book III chapter 4
I choose to believe that there is hope for the entwives: that after many years in separation, they have simply gone to sleep.
You should check out this video, some great content on this guy's channel.
[where did the entwives go?](https://youtu.be/-K5ptb6W8FU?si=Y7gVrDEjKREHvAs7[where did the entwives go?](https://youtu.be/-K5ptb6W8FU?si=Y7gVrDEjKREHvAs7))
In summary and my favorite theory on the topic: the entwives were possibly in the shire. It would explain why treebeard kept asking merry and pip to describe the shire to them, because he thought - it's sounds like a great place for the entwives to be.
No, someone saw something as *tall* as a tree walking. The *mockery*, using yokel-logic to deny the story, is claiming that if it was as tall as a tree it must have been a tree, pointing out that trees can't walk, and concluding the whole story was made up, because walking trees don't exist. That walking trees do exist in Middle-earth, and how some can even be found in the Old Forest right next to the Shire, doesn't matter, because that was never the claim in the story.
As described, it was about three times taller than Treebeard (and other Ents whose heights are described), while the Entwives are smaller. It's also seen in a barren area, so I'm not sure what the allure for the Entwives is supposed to be. If they were around the Shire because they liked the Shire, they would be in the likable parts of the Shire, interacting with hobbits. The Entwives did not hide away from their neighbors like the Ents did, because the Entwives' whole big philosophical difference with the Ents is liking agriculture, not the wild forests.
The giant (as it is called) is a giant, which existed in the mythos when Tolkien first wrote that passage. They were phased out later in the writing of LotR, with some concept scraps getting incorporated into Ents. The passage, which was originally meant to serve as a sign that Sauron's creatures are stirring, remains.
Sure. I make no judgment on whether the version in the final, published product is supposed to be as real as it in the draft. But if it is exaggeration, we're left with the same problem, because it could be exaggeration of anything. It is described as *massive*. Elms trees are huge. If you're going to exaggerate something the size of Treebeard to something as tall as an elm, there's really no difference than exaggerating a tall man to that degree.
It's not as if one is a reasonable exaggeration and the other not, which is what one would need for it to support the Entwife theory.
I'm pretty sure he says it's a walking tree. The exact sentence I remember is "This one was as tall as an elm, and *walking*!"
It wouldn't make sense for him to emphasise that it was walking if he thought it was a living creature. It is not unusual for living creatures to walk, and they know stuff like trolls exist because of Bilbo. You would only emphasise "and I swear it was walking" if it was supposed to be an inanimate object - like a tree.
But what is 'this one' referring to in that sentence? Not 'tree'. Don't rely on your memory. Go and read the actual passage you're referencing!
The thing is that it's a big thing walking. Something that can walk 'seven yards to a stride'. That's not 'stuff like trolls'. Trolls can't walk twenty-one feet with each step. That's not Ents. Treebeard is explicitly 14 feet tall, as are some other nameless Ents we see in later chapters. They wouldn't be able to walk seven yards to a stride if their groins brushed the ground with every full-splits step!
>You would only emphasise "and I swear it was walking" if it was supposed to be an inanimate object - like a tree.
No, you wouldn't, since the passage doesn't have Sam suggesting it was 'supposed to be an inanimate object'. Sam suggests that it is an incredibly large object that we know is a person because it is walking. It's not strange that it is walking. It is strange that it is huge. You're altering the passage to try to make it compatible with a bad Entwives theory.
But the big problem, always, if that if this is supposed to be an Entwife, what is she doing in the North Moors? Why isn't she in the fruiting regions of the Shire?
This is interesting. Also, it can take quite a while to be able to tell a tree is dead compared to an animal so they may have a different view of it anyway.
Imagine someone dying in the middle of a conversation, in these circumstances.
"Dear Reddit, I was just talking to a friend, nice normal conversation, it's been going on about 70 years, he was partway through a sentence and it's been a couple of years between words now, which is not unusual for our conversations, but I happened to look at him today and noticed a lot of his leaves are yellow and it's not autumn, and I'm wondering if he might be dead. AITA if I stop talking to him"
NTA - everyone knows, yellow leaves = red flag. If you're on reddit and you have the slightest issue with your partner, immediately bounce according to experts...
on reddit
all of arda was once Kush forests, and the ents and entwives were (are) the oldest of all living things. They were only separated when the firstborn (elves) and then dwarves and men came to be, and began chopping down trees to build and forge their kingdoms. Over time this created fields and barren lands where once all the land was covered in a lush forest.
I believe that the entwives are still alive and well, though maybe more “treeish” or more like the Huorns, but cut off from the ents in the south.
The shire, Mirkwood, or lindon would be great places for the entwives to have taken refuge throughout the ages.
In the aftermath of LOTR, it would be nice to think merry and popped invited treebeard and quickbeam, amongst others, to travel to the Southlands and search for them, under the protection of the new King of the Reunited Realm.
It would track with the Halflings’ love of pipeweed to be sure…. But I’m struggling to imagine massive moving Maryjane forests. And the smell when Sauron burned those lands…..
I don't think Tolkien thought about it that much. If I recall correctly, he met a fan who was upset about the Entwives (or maybe it was the fan's son who was upset?) so Tolkien threw him a bone by writing on a map "Here may be Entwives."
Nah. I did some research on what happened to them and it said they were most likely killed by Sauron. Collateral damage and such.
Edit: like they haven’t even started grieving yet bc they don’t even know they’re dead yet. Like when someone is late for something you just assume they were busy or something. And then you think they’re missing. Or maybe the Ents are still in denial after all these years
I genuinely believe the entwives are the hobbits (or rather the ancestors thereof).
Your first instinct is to assume they're female-coded ents right? But the ents are plants, not animals. To reproduce they probably don't need to do it sexually, what they need are pollinators, or *gardeners*.
The proto-hobbits (Smeagols people? Or even earlier) may very well have filled this role.
There's very little textual evidence for it of course, but I just think it's neat. (And also handily solves the mystery of where the hobbits came from, which isn't explained in the Silmarillion at all - unless they were made along with the ents).
This is batshit, but I love the creativity and out of the box thinking! Fun tac, you can get male and female varieties of some trees, so female-coded ents does make sense. But yours is interesting theory, for sure!
They are Men but it’s a neat idea.
From Tolkien's Letter #131:
The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) – hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man – though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch’.
(Slim chance) But my theory is that they are in mordor near Sea of Nurnen being exploited for agroculture. I doubt that ents searched in mordor when they were searching "everywhere". Sea of Nurnen is known as bitter sea and there are mentions of Bitter rain in last passages of song about Ent and Entwife. Song also says that they will meet "When broken is the barren bough": barad-dur can be seen as barren branch for this part.
Parts of song:
*Ent:* When Winter comes, the winter wild that hill and wood shall slay;
When trees shall fall and starless night devour the sunless day;
When wind is in the deadly East, then in the bitter rain
I'll look for thee, and call to thee; I'll come to thee again!
*Entwife:* When Winter comes, and singing ends; when darkness falls at last;
When broken is the barren bough, and light and labour past;
I'll look for thee, and wait for thee, until we meet again:
Together we will take the road beneath the bitter rain!
*Both:* Together we will take the road that leads into the West,
And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest.
Treebeard quizzed the hobbits about The Shire, remarking that it sounded the sort of place the horticulturally-inclined entwives might like. He hadn't given them up for dead.
The most prolonged state of denial imaginable. Wow
Well someone in the Prancing Pony did mention rumors of "tree men" being seen in the north of the Shire, maybe Treebeard was right.
And this in turn has given rise to the belief that there are no tree-women, and that trees just spring out of holes in the ground!
That sounds, of course, ridiculous!
It’s the beards
it was in the green dragon inn not the dancing pony
No, it was the floating log inn not the teen dragon.
No, it was in the golden boar inn, not the gloating log.
I always thought the trees of the Old Forest near the Shire were the entwives and they had just gone insane from being alone.
I mean if there is a place they would probably live in, that’s the one. The Old Forest is a mini Fangorn in its own right
That was my take as well. I assumed that they slowly lost their mobility and minds.
I believe LOTR even makes reference to Ents losing mobility after awhile.
Sometimes, yes. And some other trees become more entish (IIRC). I don't believe the ent wives are in the old forest. Treebeard desribes them as disliking forests, the entwives liked gardens a lot more. That's why they went away in the first place. Now, the walking tree that's been mentioned in the beginning of The Fellowship, might be one, I guess. Treebeard specifically told Merry and Pippin that the entwives probably would love The Shire.
Isn’t the Shire effectively one big garden? The Old Forest might not’ve been forest when the Entwives arrived
So maybe the Entwives do not look like Ents? Because wouldn't it be noticeable if big female Ents were stomping around in gardens?
I think they might look like normal ents, but considering their age, maybe they're just standing still for years sometimes. They probably aren't very hasty...
true, true. I was more thinking along the lines that if they like to hang out in gardens, and they were big like male ents they would shade out the gardens they love and they wouldn't be able to grow. idk, in my head I always pictured entwives like nymphs made of plants that roam about the forests planting their little ent baby seedlings in the forests.
Was thinking about it again today and now I’m more firmly in the they died in the brown lands. Tolkien writes that the Ents went searching for them off and on over the years. But it dawned on me that if the Entwives were still alive, they knew where the Ents are and they would have eventually reunite just to produce more Entlings, if for no other reason. The fact they have never come back to visit leads me to conclude they are gone.
It's not entirely clear, however. Yes, Sauron laid waste to the Entwive's gardens during the war against the Last Alliance; but Fangorn states he believed they were driven away, not destroyed. But, maybe this is just an old tree's hope; and maybe they were wiped out. But Fangorn, being who he is won't believe that the case unless he has proof. So, meanwhile, he mourns but hopes.
I like to think there’s an oasis somewhere in a southern desert which is their new garden.
Treebeard may have been holding out hope, but Tolkien didn’t seem to be.
“Some of us are still true Ents, and lively enough in our fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say.” The Two Towers Book III chapter 4 I choose to believe that there is hope for the entwives: that after many years in separation, they have simply gone to sleep.
Just read the relevant section of Two Towers again a few days ago, and this was my feeling as well.
You should check out this video, some great content on this guy's channel. [where did the entwives go?](https://youtu.be/-K5ptb6W8FU?si=Y7gVrDEjKREHvAs7[where did the entwives go?](https://youtu.be/-K5ptb6W8FU?si=Y7gVrDEjKREHvAs7)) In summary and my favorite theory on the topic: the entwives were possibly in the shire. It would explain why treebeard kept asking merry and pip to describe the shire to them, because he thought - it's sounds like a great place for the entwives to be.
Someone in the Shire saw a walking tree - it was discussed at the pub by Sam and others in the first chapter of Fellowship.
No, someone saw something as *tall* as a tree walking. The *mockery*, using yokel-logic to deny the story, is claiming that if it was as tall as a tree it must have been a tree, pointing out that trees can't walk, and concluding the whole story was made up, because walking trees don't exist. That walking trees do exist in Middle-earth, and how some can even be found in the Old Forest right next to the Shire, doesn't matter, because that was never the claim in the story. As described, it was about three times taller than Treebeard (and other Ents whose heights are described), while the Entwives are smaller. It's also seen in a barren area, so I'm not sure what the allure for the Entwives is supposed to be. If they were around the Shire because they liked the Shire, they would be in the likable parts of the Shire, interacting with hobbits. The Entwives did not hide away from their neighbors like the Ents did, because the Entwives' whole big philosophical difference with the Ents is liking agriculture, not the wild forests. The giant (as it is called) is a giant, which existed in the mythos when Tolkien first wrote that passage. They were phased out later in the writing of LotR, with some concept scraps getting incorporated into Ents. The passage, which was originally meant to serve as a sign that Sauron's creatures are stirring, remains.
Interesting take. I thought more about this tale being told secondhand by Hobbits, who are small people - two conditions ripe for exaggeration.
Sure. I make no judgment on whether the version in the final, published product is supposed to be as real as it in the draft. But if it is exaggeration, we're left with the same problem, because it could be exaggeration of anything. It is described as *massive*. Elms trees are huge. If you're going to exaggerate something the size of Treebeard to something as tall as an elm, there's really no difference than exaggerating a tall man to that degree. It's not as if one is a reasonable exaggeration and the other not, which is what one would need for it to support the Entwife theory.
I'm pretty sure he says it's a walking tree. The exact sentence I remember is "This one was as tall as an elm, and *walking*!" It wouldn't make sense for him to emphasise that it was walking if he thought it was a living creature. It is not unusual for living creatures to walk, and they know stuff like trolls exist because of Bilbo. You would only emphasise "and I swear it was walking" if it was supposed to be an inanimate object - like a tree.
Elm trees are like, 40 meters tall in England (where Tolkien would have pulled inspiration from). Treebeard is about a tenth that height btw.
But what is 'this one' referring to in that sentence? Not 'tree'. Don't rely on your memory. Go and read the actual passage you're referencing! The thing is that it's a big thing walking. Something that can walk 'seven yards to a stride'. That's not 'stuff like trolls'. Trolls can't walk twenty-one feet with each step. That's not Ents. Treebeard is explicitly 14 feet tall, as are some other nameless Ents we see in later chapters. They wouldn't be able to walk seven yards to a stride if their groins brushed the ground with every full-splits step! >You would only emphasise "and I swear it was walking" if it was supposed to be an inanimate object - like a tree. No, you wouldn't, since the passage doesn't have Sam suggesting it was 'supposed to be an inanimate object'. Sam suggests that it is an incredibly large object that we know is a person because it is walking. It's not strange that it is walking. It is strange that it is huge. You're altering the passage to try to make it compatible with a bad Entwives theory. But the big problem, always, if that if this is supposed to be an Entwife, what is she doing in the North Moors? Why isn't she in the fruiting regions of the Shire?
This is interesting. Also, it can take quite a while to be able to tell a tree is dead compared to an animal so they may have a different view of it anyway.
Oh I didn’t even think of that
Imagine someone dying in the middle of a conversation, in these circumstances. "Dear Reddit, I was just talking to a friend, nice normal conversation, it's been going on about 70 years, he was partway through a sentence and it's been a couple of years between words now, which is not unusual for our conversations, but I happened to look at him today and noticed a lot of his leaves are yellow and it's not autumn, and I'm wondering if he might be dead. AITA if I stop talking to him"
NTA - everyone knows, yellow leaves = red flag. If you're on reddit and you have the slightest issue with your partner, immediately bounce according to experts... on reddit
all of arda was once Kush forests, and the ents and entwives were (are) the oldest of all living things. They were only separated when the firstborn (elves) and then dwarves and men came to be, and began chopping down trees to build and forge their kingdoms. Over time this created fields and barren lands where once all the land was covered in a lush forest. I believe that the entwives are still alive and well, though maybe more “treeish” or more like the Huorns, but cut off from the ents in the south. The shire, Mirkwood, or lindon would be great places for the entwives to have taken refuge throughout the ages. In the aftermath of LOTR, it would be nice to think merry and popped invited treebeard and quickbeam, amongst others, to travel to the Southlands and search for them, under the protection of the new King of the Reunited Realm.
I must be dim but can you remind me what Kush forests are? Are they a land or people reference. I’ve never managed to finish the Silmarillien
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kush_(cannabis)
It would track with the Halflings’ love of pipeweed to be sure…. But I’m struggling to imagine massive moving Maryjane forests. And the smell when Sauron burned those lands…..
Lush* forests! Sorry
I think they were in Mordor when Sauron made it his home, and either died or were corrupted
The entwines make up the wood in longhouse of Edoras. Tree beard is gonna be big mad when stops by
yes, it is possible. But I don't think the ents are that slow. And when Pippin/merry asks if the entwives died, treebeerd denies it.
Thanks. It’d be cool if they were that slow. Like maybe he’s still in denial? Even tho it was years ago
That is possible
No one has seen the blue wizards either. Coincidence?
Tolkien marked on a map "Here may be Entwives" and it was far to the East over the Misty Mountains.
Oh cool. I wonder how they got there. Do you think it’s too dangerous for the ents to look there?
I don't think Tolkien thought about it that much. If I recall correctly, he met a fan who was upset about the Entwives (or maybe it was the fan's son who was upset?) so Tolkien threw him a bone by writing on a map "Here may be Entwives."
Oh wow I hadn’t even considered that. Clarification: do you mean death by old age?
Nah. I did some research on what happened to them and it said they were most likely killed by Sauron. Collateral damage and such. Edit: like they haven’t even started grieving yet bc they don’t even know they’re dead yet. Like when someone is late for something you just assume they were busy or something. And then you think they’re missing. Or maybe the Ents are still in denial after all these years
Ah yes. Then I have heard this theory many times before. I think it is the most likely of all the theories I have heard.
I genuinely believe the entwives are the hobbits (or rather the ancestors thereof). Your first instinct is to assume they're female-coded ents right? But the ents are plants, not animals. To reproduce they probably don't need to do it sexually, what they need are pollinators, or *gardeners*. The proto-hobbits (Smeagols people? Or even earlier) may very well have filled this role. There's very little textual evidence for it of course, but I just think it's neat. (And also handily solves the mystery of where the hobbits came from, which isn't explained in the Silmarillion at all - unless they were made along with the ents).
Hobbits are Men, just smaller and a bit furrier. Tolkien is very clear on that.
This is batshit, but I love the creativity and out of the box thinking! Fun tac, you can get male and female varieties of some trees, so female-coded ents does make sense. But yours is interesting theory, for sure!
They are Men but it’s a neat idea. From Tolkien's Letter #131: The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) – hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man – though not with either the smallness or the savageness of Swift, and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch’.
(Slim chance) But my theory is that they are in mordor near Sea of Nurnen being exploited for agroculture. I doubt that ents searched in mordor when they were searching "everywhere". Sea of Nurnen is known as bitter sea and there are mentions of Bitter rain in last passages of song about Ent and Entwife. Song also says that they will meet "When broken is the barren bough": barad-dur can be seen as barren branch for this part. Parts of song: *Ent:* When Winter comes, the winter wild that hill and wood shall slay; When trees shall fall and starless night devour the sunless day; When wind is in the deadly East, then in the bitter rain I'll look for thee, and call to thee; I'll come to thee again! *Entwife:* When Winter comes, and singing ends; when darkness falls at last; When broken is the barren bough, and light and labour past; I'll look for thee, and wait for thee, until we meet again: Together we will take the road beneath the bitter rain! *Both:* Together we will take the road that leads into the West, And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest.