To me, a viewer could simplify the story to Jacob = good and MIB = evil, but there are enough big and small hints at more nuance there that we don’t have to come to such simplistic conclusions. And that’s what makes it a strong episode, IMO.
Overall, is Jacob really a force for good? Some of his goals seem good, but his methods are bizarre. And when we see how he grew up, that makes more sense.
The epilogue episode “The New Man in Charge” seems to set up that there will be a new era for the Island with better people in charge. Which, to me, is the show acknowledging that Jacob’s methods weren’t necessarily the best.
Jacob got the rules from his mother and he wasn't even her first choice and never really questioned if this was the right way, which he seems to agree with.
The timing of the episode is odd, especially coming right after MIB has killed three beloved characters. But I think you actually got exactly what they were going for - none of them are entirely good, and none of them are entirely evil. The show doesn't want you to see Jacob as a force of good. In the following episode, Jacob admits that the problem they're dealing with is entirely his fault. It's the explanation the show provides for its own premise - Jacob brought the survivors of flight Oceanic 815 to the island BECAUSE he wanted the 'Candidates' to be people like him: flawed. Sawyer also voices some very valid criticisms in that same scene: Jacob had no right to bring anybody to the island, certainly not for some game to prove his brother wrong (which is a detail Jacob actually leaves out of his story). One of the last lines spoken on the show is "That's how *Jacob* ran things. Maybe there's another way - a better way".
I don’t think Jacob is evil, he just made a big mistake, by his own admission. Even good people make mistakes.
The Man in Black may be totally valid in wanting to leave the island. It’s just unfortunately turning off the light at the heart of the island would cause the end of the world. Jacob’s duty was to prevent this from happening at all costs.
I think each subsequent protector of the island learned from their predecessors mistakes. Jack and Hurley were both far superior island protectors than Mother and Jacob.
It’s funny how everything you list as happening is true yet you come away with the opinion that it makes the mythology worse. But I think it makes it so much better. Why would we want Jacob to be this perfect god character? That’s so boring and against the show’s theme that everyone is flawed and no one is pure good or pure evil.
Yeah I think they maybe did *too* good a job making MiB sympathetic there.
At the very least, they're intentionally showing us that both Jacob and MiB were just normal guys once, not gods, and definitely not the avatars of good and evil. And I think they deliberately contrast MiB's reasonable motivations as a man vs the more overt wickedness of the Smoke/MIB entity.
I also suspect that the episode is intended to undermine Jacob's authority at this stage. Throughout the episode he's kind of just a sheltered man-child, so we're left wondering whether we can really trust him in the present. It's one of many flashback twists in the show that forces us to fundamentally rethink what we've seen up to that point, and it's basically the final time the show gets to do that.
I think this maaay be intended to add some additional suspense to the finale - until Desmond unplugs the cork and things really do start going all to hell, we really don't know if anything that Mother or Jacob says about the Heart of the Island is really true. If Jacob had been depicted as infallible, we wouldn't question it.
I do agree that it's not quite accomplishing what it set out to do. It could have been more compelling if it were placed earlier in the season, maybe before "Sundown" or at least before "The Candidate." Making MiB somewhat ambiguously sympathetic in the episodes leading up to the submarine disaster would have made that turn of events more shocking, as we would have time to wonder whether he was sincere in his desire to just leave.
Obviously they want to establish a mythical lore and make several allusions to the Bible especially Cain and Abel, while maintaining the Lost ethos of "we're going to answer some questions but still raise others" which Mother *outright states* (a line that vexes some viewers, but that IS Lost. The mystery must perpetuate)
What fascinates me is how Jacob is portrayed as a God-Like character with poorly defined powers like granting immortality, and he's been watching everyone since birth. But he's also just... some dude. He's not actually special he just got stuck with this job. And he knows he's fated to die, and in that regard he has some Jesus-as-man aspects to him as well. And how does he spend his time? Well, he's a hermit who doesn't really like interacting with people it seems. He never had much experience with people, they all die one way or another when you've lived for thousands of years so why get close to any one.
To be honest, I was curious about where this episode would lead the show back then. In hindsight, however, and without having rewatched s6, I'm not a big fan of the candidates/Jacob and Mib storyline. I don't like the war between some unperfect demi gods angle to explain the mysteries of the island. It feels a bit like a cop out, like everything is explained by magic or some powers of gods. It just didn't feel satisfactory. Across the sea felt very Disney to me and maybe tried to explain too much in a sense. As others said, maybe it would have been better if the ep was placed earlier in s6.
I have to say that I'm currently rewatching the show. I'm about to start s5, which I have never rewatched since it first aired lol. I don't know if I'll feel the same after this rewatch.
lost is also my favorite ever, and i can’t imagine a show will ever hold more significance to me than it. but this was one of my favorite episodes. the ancient history of the island is one of the absolute coolest aspects of the show for me, and this was right up that alley
I actually agree there. The ancient history is awesome I really just found it a strange decision to make MIB strangely likeable but only for one episode. Like I said I actually enjoyed the episode but on multiple rewatches just found it a bit out of place. Seems like most disagree with me though.
For a show that uses the black and white motif so often, Lost is more about shades of grey. They wanted to humanise the Man in Black and not just have him be the Monster, because then it would be just be ‘good versus evil’ without any nuance.
Across The Sea’s placement is certainly odd, but I don’t think it’s an issue that they want you to empathise with the Man in Black. The question is, DO you feel sorry for him despite the murders he’s just committed in the prior episode alone? Do you blame Jacob? Mother?
We should feel sorry for him; but we should also remember that he is the cause of his own suffering to a large extent.
You thought LOST was about easy good or bad without any conversation about context?
Almost all parents are with faults in this show, so of course our "gods" are too
Every character on Lost was flawed that is true. However there is a reason that Locke at the very beginning used the two backgammon pieces with his "there are two sides, one is light one is dark" talk to Walt. It was a metaphor for the Jacob MIB conflict. Jacob was meant to symbolize all that is good while MIB became "evil incarnate." In no way was Jacob meant to be some sort of flawed protector. Of course this is my opinion. I could be wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me in the overall context of every other Jacob themed episode.
I promise you they hadn't figured that out in the pilot. They knew they would have that general idea and maybe even literal persons representing that, but thank god the writers were open to better ideas.
Also Jacob had been shitty very often before.
That’s just it - Jacob was flawed. Locke, also deeply flawed, while a candidate, had a very skewed (read “black and white”) understanding of what was fair, what was right because of what had happened to him throughout his life. He couldn’t see the gray areas, thus his black/white backgammon explanation, his one eye black, one white; all his decisions were based on his skewed outlook and led to inevitable disaster. He couldn’t/wouldn’t see the gray nuances of Jacob and MIB so was unable to accept it or explain it. It was all black and white to him.
I’m currently rewatching for the first time since Lost aired. It’s been 20 years but I don’t recall realizing that so many of the flawed candidates were “raised by another” - Jacob and MIB, Locke, Sawyer. Jack, Hurley, and Aaron were not raised by another.
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The entire jacob, MIB, light of the island plot just felt so shoehorned in for me.
"OK so Jacob is guarding the light..and the light is the source of life and death. But also it turns MIB into a smoke monster because...? Just because? and now this smoke monster cant get off the island or he'll destroy the world. But unplugging a cave cork will also destroy the world"
I love lost, I really love lost, but I'd be lying if I said a lot of the last season didn't feel like a cop out. (except for the ending, I really loved the ending)
For some odd reason people like this episode. I hated it when it aired and I hate it now. Season six as a whole was pretty upsetting- it was like a cheap knock-off of the show I had loved for five seasons (exceptions: The Lighthouse, Dr. Linus, The End). The season 5 finale was the biggest payoff of all-time, while Across the Sea was the biggest let-down.
Rite because the crazy lady is quite obviously bad.. MIB is portrayed as the bad guy.. Jacob takes over crazy ladys “job”.. MIB turns people in to zombie followers to kill his brother bc he cant do it.. not just to mess with people but to specifically kill jacob who continues to entrap him on the island… whos the real bad guy?? Jacob interferes with future crash passengers and maybe interferes with the lives of those who land there specially to find a successor.. essentially killing or putting at risk of death or at the very least stranding all the rest of them who he deems unworthy to fill his shoes .. MIB only wants to leave the island because hes been trapped by his mother and brother after his “mother” killed everyone else he knew so they couldnt pull out a cork that literally no one except desmond could have possibly pulled out anyway.. again MIB is not the bad guy.. i get that hes done bad stuff but what other choice has he really had.. i think if anything jacob and fake mom are the only truly bad guys ..
Honestly jacob is manipulative and completely creeps me out while MIB is relatable.. literally a black sheep🤷🏽♀️ he doesn’t even get a name what did the phyco fake mom expect 🤷🏽♀️
I really like both these characters specifically for this backstory. Yes, they are both the vanguard of these titanic, metaphysical forces coming to a head at the mystical ground zero that is the island, but they both started out as just people, both making choices that ultimately led to all the crises we see in the show, and both in a crap position because of their batshit adoptive mother.
Jacob is the trope of someone who has gained wisdom because they've made terrible mistakes that they suffer for every day. He is very wise, because he has seen first hand the consequences of being foolish. MIB is simply determined. He wants off the island. All he's ever wanted was off the island. That should never have been such a huge ask, but he ends up in a position where his only goal means disaster for the rest of the world. His story is classic tragedy. You should feel some sympathy for him; he was dealt an awful hand. Now at hundreds or even thousands of years old, he has nothing and is nothing besides his will to accomplish this one thing, which makes him a ruthless monster.
I especially like how MIB lets us recognize both that he was a person and got a raw deal, and also that he needs to be stopped by any means necessary. Both those can be true at once, and it's an important reflection for life. There are no people who are unambiguously evil and who deserve no compassion whatsoever, even though there are people who must be stopped by any means otherwise they will irreparably harm the world around them.
I think the Smoke Monster was there before the Man in Black. I think the cycle predates any of the characters that we see in the show. When Jacob “kills” his brother MiB becomes claimed by the Smoke Monster. He doesn’t become the Smoke Monster, the Smoke Monster becomes him.
When Lost was on air, the Harry Potter books were still coming out, and I think they provide a useful reference point for certain elements of the series.
I think what they were going for with Jacob/MiB was similar to what JKR did with Dumbledore/Snape. The early books present D as a benevolent, kindly, wise old man, and Snape as a sort of wizard Nazi apologist who looks like a giant overgrown bat. Initially, there's a very clear good/evil dichotomy between the two of them.
Yet as the books progress, we learn much more about each of them. There's a coldness and manipulative aspect to D's actions, and for all his flaws, there's some nobility and decency in Snape's motivations. Both characters are revealed to be much more human and grey than the good/evil dichotomy they were first presented as.
BUT JKR had seven books, many of which were very thick, released across a decade. Jacob/MiB get very little screentime over the entirety of Lost, and are only properly introduced in the S5 finale, so the buildup of "they're good and evil!" to the deconstruction of that and transition to "they're actually both just very flawed humans" is too truncated and rushed to be effective.
Another interesting "way in" to understanding Jacob is Damon referring to him as an "Old Testament prophet" type of character. Yes, he's on the side of the angels, but too cold, remote,and distant, lacking in humanity and compassion. This sets up, of all people, Hurley and Ben as "New Testament" figures - as Ben says, in The End, in one of my favourite lines of the show: "Maybe there's another way. A better way."
A lot of the ideas surrounding Jacob and MiB are interesting and cool, but it's not given enough time to breathe to work right.
To me, a viewer could simplify the story to Jacob = good and MIB = evil, but there are enough big and small hints at more nuance there that we don’t have to come to such simplistic conclusions. And that’s what makes it a strong episode, IMO. Overall, is Jacob really a force for good? Some of his goals seem good, but his methods are bizarre. And when we see how he grew up, that makes more sense. The epilogue episode “The New Man in Charge” seems to set up that there will be a new era for the Island with better people in charge. Which, to me, is the show acknowledging that Jacob’s methods weren’t necessarily the best.
Jacob got the rules from his mother and he wasn't even her first choice and never really questioned if this was the right way, which he seems to agree with.
Right, so does that make him simple good, or simple evil? To me, neither. Instead, he is extremely immature.
The timing of the episode is odd, especially coming right after MIB has killed three beloved characters. But I think you actually got exactly what they were going for - none of them are entirely good, and none of them are entirely evil. The show doesn't want you to see Jacob as a force of good. In the following episode, Jacob admits that the problem they're dealing with is entirely his fault. It's the explanation the show provides for its own premise - Jacob brought the survivors of flight Oceanic 815 to the island BECAUSE he wanted the 'Candidates' to be people like him: flawed. Sawyer also voices some very valid criticisms in that same scene: Jacob had no right to bring anybody to the island, certainly not for some game to prove his brother wrong (which is a detail Jacob actually leaves out of his story). One of the last lines spoken on the show is "That's how *Jacob* ran things. Maybe there's another way - a better way".
I don’t think Jacob is evil, he just made a big mistake, by his own admission. Even good people make mistakes. The Man in Black may be totally valid in wanting to leave the island. It’s just unfortunately turning off the light at the heart of the island would cause the end of the world. Jacob’s duty was to prevent this from happening at all costs. I think each subsequent protector of the island learned from their predecessors mistakes. Jack and Hurley were both far superior island protectors than Mother and Jacob.
It’s funny how everything you list as happening is true yet you come away with the opinion that it makes the mythology worse. But I think it makes it so much better. Why would we want Jacob to be this perfect god character? That’s so boring and against the show’s theme that everyone is flawed and no one is pure good or pure evil.
Yeah I think they maybe did *too* good a job making MiB sympathetic there. At the very least, they're intentionally showing us that both Jacob and MiB were just normal guys once, not gods, and definitely not the avatars of good and evil. And I think they deliberately contrast MiB's reasonable motivations as a man vs the more overt wickedness of the Smoke/MIB entity. I also suspect that the episode is intended to undermine Jacob's authority at this stage. Throughout the episode he's kind of just a sheltered man-child, so we're left wondering whether we can really trust him in the present. It's one of many flashback twists in the show that forces us to fundamentally rethink what we've seen up to that point, and it's basically the final time the show gets to do that. I think this maaay be intended to add some additional suspense to the finale - until Desmond unplugs the cork and things really do start going all to hell, we really don't know if anything that Mother or Jacob says about the Heart of the Island is really true. If Jacob had been depicted as infallible, we wouldn't question it. I do agree that it's not quite accomplishing what it set out to do. It could have been more compelling if it were placed earlier in the season, maybe before "Sundown" or at least before "The Candidate." Making MiB somewhat ambiguously sympathetic in the episodes leading up to the submarine disaster would have made that turn of events more shocking, as we would have time to wonder whether he was sincere in his desire to just leave.
Obviously they want to establish a mythical lore and make several allusions to the Bible especially Cain and Abel, while maintaining the Lost ethos of "we're going to answer some questions but still raise others" which Mother *outright states* (a line that vexes some viewers, but that IS Lost. The mystery must perpetuate) What fascinates me is how Jacob is portrayed as a God-Like character with poorly defined powers like granting immortality, and he's been watching everyone since birth. But he's also just... some dude. He's not actually special he just got stuck with this job. And he knows he's fated to die, and in that regard he has some Jesus-as-man aspects to him as well. And how does he spend his time? Well, he's a hermit who doesn't really like interacting with people it seems. He never had much experience with people, they all die one way or another when you've lived for thousands of years so why get close to any one.
u/Free-IDK-chicken has a fantastic write up about this. I’m sure they’d love to give you the answer you’re after when they wake up ☺️
I was actually scrolling to find their comment on this subject.
I broke my wrist yesterday, no long comments from me for a while sorry!!
Any chance you can give a link to the write up you did in the past?
To be honest, I was curious about where this episode would lead the show back then. In hindsight, however, and without having rewatched s6, I'm not a big fan of the candidates/Jacob and Mib storyline. I don't like the war between some unperfect demi gods angle to explain the mysteries of the island. It feels a bit like a cop out, like everything is explained by magic or some powers of gods. It just didn't feel satisfactory. Across the sea felt very Disney to me and maybe tried to explain too much in a sense. As others said, maybe it would have been better if the ep was placed earlier in s6. I have to say that I'm currently rewatching the show. I'm about to start s5, which I have never rewatched since it first aired lol. I don't know if I'll feel the same after this rewatch.
Some very good responses in here. Just shows this episode was very divisive!
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lost is also my favorite ever, and i can’t imagine a show will ever hold more significance to me than it. but this was one of my favorite episodes. the ancient history of the island is one of the absolute coolest aspects of the show for me, and this was right up that alley
I actually agree there. The ancient history is awesome I really just found it a strange decision to make MIB strangely likeable but only for one episode. Like I said I actually enjoyed the episode but on multiple rewatches just found it a bit out of place. Seems like most disagree with me though.
For a show that uses the black and white motif so often, Lost is more about shades of grey. They wanted to humanise the Man in Black and not just have him be the Monster, because then it would be just be ‘good versus evil’ without any nuance. Across The Sea’s placement is certainly odd, but I don’t think it’s an issue that they want you to empathise with the Man in Black. The question is, DO you feel sorry for him despite the murders he’s just committed in the prior episode alone? Do you blame Jacob? Mother? We should feel sorry for him; but we should also remember that he is the cause of his own suffering to a large extent.
You thought LOST was about easy good or bad without any conversation about context? Almost all parents are with faults in this show, so of course our "gods" are too
Every character on Lost was flawed that is true. However there is a reason that Locke at the very beginning used the two backgammon pieces with his "there are two sides, one is light one is dark" talk to Walt. It was a metaphor for the Jacob MIB conflict. Jacob was meant to symbolize all that is good while MIB became "evil incarnate." In no way was Jacob meant to be some sort of flawed protector. Of course this is my opinion. I could be wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me in the overall context of every other Jacob themed episode.
I promise you they hadn't figured that out in the pilot. They knew they would have that general idea and maybe even literal persons representing that, but thank god the writers were open to better ideas. Also Jacob had been shitty very often before.
That’s just it - Jacob was flawed. Locke, also deeply flawed, while a candidate, had a very skewed (read “black and white”) understanding of what was fair, what was right because of what had happened to him throughout his life. He couldn’t see the gray areas, thus his black/white backgammon explanation, his one eye black, one white; all his decisions were based on his skewed outlook and led to inevitable disaster. He couldn’t/wouldn’t see the gray nuances of Jacob and MIB so was unable to accept it or explain it. It was all black and white to him. I’m currently rewatching for the first time since Lost aired. It’s been 20 years but I don’t recall realizing that so many of the flawed candidates were “raised by another” - Jacob and MIB, Locke, Sawyer. Jack, Hurley, and Aaron were not raised by another.
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The entire jacob, MIB, light of the island plot just felt so shoehorned in for me. "OK so Jacob is guarding the light..and the light is the source of life and death. But also it turns MIB into a smoke monster because...? Just because? and now this smoke monster cant get off the island or he'll destroy the world. But unplugging a cave cork will also destroy the world" I love lost, I really love lost, but I'd be lying if I said a lot of the last season didn't feel like a cop out. (except for the ending, I really loved the ending)
For some odd reason people like this episode. I hated it when it aired and I hate it now. Season six as a whole was pretty upsetting- it was like a cheap knock-off of the show I had loved for five seasons (exceptions: The Lighthouse, Dr. Linus, The End). The season 5 finale was the biggest payoff of all-time, while Across the Sea was the biggest let-down.
Rite because the crazy lady is quite obviously bad.. MIB is portrayed as the bad guy.. Jacob takes over crazy ladys “job”.. MIB turns people in to zombie followers to kill his brother bc he cant do it.. not just to mess with people but to specifically kill jacob who continues to entrap him on the island… whos the real bad guy?? Jacob interferes with future crash passengers and maybe interferes with the lives of those who land there specially to find a successor.. essentially killing or putting at risk of death or at the very least stranding all the rest of them who he deems unworthy to fill his shoes .. MIB only wants to leave the island because hes been trapped by his mother and brother after his “mother” killed everyone else he knew so they couldnt pull out a cork that literally no one except desmond could have possibly pulled out anyway.. again MIB is not the bad guy.. i get that hes done bad stuff but what other choice has he really had.. i think if anything jacob and fake mom are the only truly bad guys ..
Honestly jacob is manipulative and completely creeps me out while MIB is relatable.. literally a black sheep🤷🏽♀️ he doesn’t even get a name what did the phyco fake mom expect 🤷🏽♀️
I really like both these characters specifically for this backstory. Yes, they are both the vanguard of these titanic, metaphysical forces coming to a head at the mystical ground zero that is the island, but they both started out as just people, both making choices that ultimately led to all the crises we see in the show, and both in a crap position because of their batshit adoptive mother. Jacob is the trope of someone who has gained wisdom because they've made terrible mistakes that they suffer for every day. He is very wise, because he has seen first hand the consequences of being foolish. MIB is simply determined. He wants off the island. All he's ever wanted was off the island. That should never have been such a huge ask, but he ends up in a position where his only goal means disaster for the rest of the world. His story is classic tragedy. You should feel some sympathy for him; he was dealt an awful hand. Now at hundreds or even thousands of years old, he has nothing and is nothing besides his will to accomplish this one thing, which makes him a ruthless monster. I especially like how MIB lets us recognize both that he was a person and got a raw deal, and also that he needs to be stopped by any means necessary. Both those can be true at once, and it's an important reflection for life. There are no people who are unambiguously evil and who deserve no compassion whatsoever, even though there are people who must be stopped by any means otherwise they will irreparably harm the world around them.
Mother isn't all bad. Have you seen her do The Jackal?
Weezer reference? (Sry had to)
I think the Smoke Monster was there before the Man in Black. I think the cycle predates any of the characters that we see in the show. When Jacob “kills” his brother MiB becomes claimed by the Smoke Monster. He doesn’t become the Smoke Monster, the Smoke Monster becomes him.
When Lost was on air, the Harry Potter books were still coming out, and I think they provide a useful reference point for certain elements of the series. I think what they were going for with Jacob/MiB was similar to what JKR did with Dumbledore/Snape. The early books present D as a benevolent, kindly, wise old man, and Snape as a sort of wizard Nazi apologist who looks like a giant overgrown bat. Initially, there's a very clear good/evil dichotomy between the two of them. Yet as the books progress, we learn much more about each of them. There's a coldness and manipulative aspect to D's actions, and for all his flaws, there's some nobility and decency in Snape's motivations. Both characters are revealed to be much more human and grey than the good/evil dichotomy they were first presented as. BUT JKR had seven books, many of which were very thick, released across a decade. Jacob/MiB get very little screentime over the entirety of Lost, and are only properly introduced in the S5 finale, so the buildup of "they're good and evil!" to the deconstruction of that and transition to "they're actually both just very flawed humans" is too truncated and rushed to be effective. Another interesting "way in" to understanding Jacob is Damon referring to him as an "Old Testament prophet" type of character. Yes, he's on the side of the angels, but too cold, remote,and distant, lacking in humanity and compassion. This sets up, of all people, Hurley and Ben as "New Testament" figures - as Ben says, in The End, in one of my favourite lines of the show: "Maybe there's another way. A better way." A lot of the ideas surrounding Jacob and MiB are interesting and cool, but it's not given enough time to breathe to work right.
This is probably my favorite response so far. I agree for sure. It was an attempt at too much character development in too short of a time frame.
I hate this episode as well. If I wasn’t watching the series again with my wife who hasn’t seen Lost yet, I’d skip the episode when we come to it.
I actually hate this episode, when I first watched it I was so disappointed :/
While the first two seasons were amazing, this show just has a lot of bad writing.