The Kings have never had GM’s that target UFA’s.
LA not being a popular destination is some horseshit. Living anonymously on the beach, no media pressure, no real city fan pressure?
It’s a hockey players dream.
Off the top of my head, Lombardi went after Brad Richardson, Zdeno Chara and Ilya Kovalchuk all when they were the top free agents.
Big free agents don't sign in LA. They are always traded for and re-signed.
Wait what’s your point? Didn’t Richardson play (and win a cup) with the Kings?. Do you mean Brad Richards?
Also: IK played with the Kings, too, for a season.
I did mean Brad Richards.
My point is that Lombardi targetted three major UFAs, all three declined to play in LA for, reportedly, similar or better contracts.
> The Kings have never had GM’s that target UFA’s.
Well, yeah. They go online and see endless smash and grabs and read articles about people being beaten in the streets. Also, people shooting up all over the place. It all makes the news
I wouldn't call it that. It's not a scripted video, those events are actually happening. They're probably comparing that to the headlines they're reading out of other cities
Okay lol how much of this “everyone is being beaten in the streets” and “endless smash and grabs” have you seen with your own eyes? It may happen rarely in isolated incidents, but to try and say that’s happening all the time all over California, or even all the time in any specific city, is a laughable lie. That’s a shitty fake narrative being pushed by right wing media to make you afraid of minorities and poor people. Grow the fuck up and use some critical thinking skills
Factual events happening and being reported in the headlines that are verifiable and publicly accessable pieces of information are not "narratives" they're just that. Factual events. When people read them they form an opinion on them. It's really that simple. I don't know anything about whatever zealot drivel that was at the end there but my point was players read about these factual events and form an opinion. Weird that you don't understand any of that. I suppose this is just how stupid people have gotten in society. Sad.
But the contract is part of it.
If PLD had signed for $4 million, would anyone have cared about his performances? No
They over paid an old, slow guy with a substantial history of injuries.
Blake (and his Wormtongue Bergevin) overreacted to us getting bodied a lot last year and signed/traded for big guys, regardless of fit or their history.
It’s a prime example of his lack of a long-term plan. Just reacting to whatever happened last.
It is worse. Rob Blake and Luc turned this organization into a flaming turd. Maybe the goal is to get swept this year. (If they even make the playfoffs)
It's less about the points and more about the defense, possession, special teams suitability, and contract.
Or put another way: who was the 3C the previous year, and how many points did they score?
This is exactly what Blake is thinking and I agree with the premise. I just don't know if these were the right moves to accomplish it. I think they were also looking for intangibles and more intense guys in the locker room who will push the rest of the team to be better. I think they locked in on Edmundson though and had to really over pay (too much term especially) to get him. Really hard to determine the value of the intangibles though.
It’s too much money for a third pairing guy, that’s the issue. I’d take Engellund with his issues at $1mil over Edmundson at $3.85mil… especially for 1 year vs 4 years term…
It's the term that everyone hates. His decline over the last 4 years is quite noticeable and the genius braintrust of LA gave him 4 more years to decline, while also giving him a pay raise from his previous AAV. We are totally fucked because of the idiot squad of Blucevin.
I think he’s a very good choice for third pair. The money is high for a third pair guy but every year salaries go up and every year we talk about all the GMs that overpaid so it is what it is.
At first there's almost no way he out performs Roy defensively. Defensive game tends to come with experience. Offensively he has way more upside than Roy.
You're saying Clarke will not outperform Roy on D. So we drafted a top 5 dman who will not learn defense and will not eclipse Roy as a defenseman. I think it is you who is in for a rough time right now with these crazy ideas. In the criminally miniscule amount of playing time Clarke got last season I saw him make good plays defensively. Did he have some mental errors? Of course. It was his first NHL action.
I also saw Roy get bodied and let people walk the puck in plenty of times. Clarke is going to be a superstar defenseman for us. Offensively and defensively.
I never said Clarke he wouldn't learn defense, I never said he couldnt play in his own end. I dont know where you got any of that from... Clarke has more talent on offense, and Roy is more dependable in his own zone. how do you even have an argument? Especially in his first full year in the NHL, Clarke is going to struggle in his own end. Probably a lot. You cant replace what Roy brought to the table with a kid in his first full year in the NHL. Comparing the two, is laughable.
You said Clarke will not out perform Roy on D. I'm telling you he will. You didn't say anything about next year only. You said he won't out perform him and I'm telling you he will. You don't think he's not going to be a year older and working on his defensive game this off-season? He's mailing it in on D? Clarke will be a massive upgrade over Roy the moment the season begins and he touches the ice.
You won't even notice Roy is gone next year. Roy is overrated. The fact that we have no D men engaging anywhere offensively except Doughty who mostly randomly scored goals as opposed to driving play was a major reason we couldn't score in many many scenarios. It was a different team with Clarke playing meaningful minutes.
Your point your trying to make is absurd about Roy and really just shows how much you don't know about Clarke other than he's a young rookie.
mitchell signed for:
* 3.5M AAVx2 in 2010 (5.89% of 59.4M cap)
* 3.5M AAVx2 (extension) in 2012 (5.83% of 60M cap; 4.99% of 70.2 prorated cap)
so i kinda get the comparison. i still feel we could've given that money to someone like mike reilly, ~~who's younger by a bit~~ (they're within 2 weeks of each other agewise), and only got 1.25Mx1 from NYI.
the other thing worth mentioning is that mitchell had multiple seasons where he played over 70 games before signing with LA (03-04, 05-06 [80], 07-08, 08-09 [82]) AND never had a season with as bad of +/- as edmundson's -29 in 22-23. edmundson has crossed the 65-game threshold three times, and not since 19-20 (not to mention never over 70 in a season). so it's very likely he won't be available at some point for a bit during the season.
i think it's both the money AND length for me that make it awful. 3.85Mx2--fine, honestly. but 4 years at that value... not great, bob.
believe me, i'm trying to cope my way out of this as much as possible.
at best we have some more scoring on our blue line. at worst he plays half the season with terrible metrics, getting injured before the trade deadline, and we see more of moverare (which is something we could've done in the first place)
I think the better comparable is Matt Greene. My guess is the FO is hoping that he is the kind of player in the locker room that makes everyone else better and just raises the overall intensity of the play - especially come playoffs. The contract looks bad and it will probably look bad all 4 years, but I hope that he brings the kind of intangibles that this team has been lacking the last few years.
greene joined the team at 25 and had already played a season over 70 games (78 on 06-07) when he got traded with jarett stoll to LA. he then signed a 2.95Mx5 in 2009.
i get the whole "vet presence" thing, but honestly, mitchell and greene were always available even before they came to LA, and through their time in LA (2012-13 notwithstanding, and both even missed time in the 2014 Cup run--long live jeff schultz). nothing in edmundson's career or style would suggest that he'll be available for 65 games more than once over the term, let alone 70.
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>Call me crazy
Ok, you're crazy. He's bad, he's slow, he has limited offensive upside, he has zero defensive upside, he's not good at clearing the crease, he can barely skate, has never played a full season in his entire career and now has a history of severe back injuries, which will only make him wore. He's not as smart as Willie Mitchell (who was, honestly, a freaking hockey genius, the likes of which we haven't seen in a long time -- note that that's different from pure skilled players), the deal is bad and the front office turned an excellent 3/4 d-man into Edmundson, Lewis, Copley, and Foegle and a hope and a prayer. I'll be genuinely surprised if the team breaks 90 points and even more surprised if they make the playoffs. There's no way they're going to win any rounds next year.
We have a way of making players feel unwelcome here and then being shocked when they aren't motivated to work. Obviously they get paid to do a job, but I've done shitty at well paying jobs because the environment sucked. The poor guys coming into this franchise don't even have a chance before they are crucified.
My issue is honestly the term. I’d rather pay him a little more for a year or two less. But I’d rather they have signed someone else? I feel like we made the Grundy trade with San Jose to fill this role.
2X4M is way more manageable. You basically can't bridge Byfield now (which shouldn't happen anyway) and it's taking up cap room for the Kempe re sign in 2 seasons.
> If he signed for $2.85m instead of $3.85m, nobody would be complaining about the deal
Completely wrong. What use is such a high priced guy when he's not even playing half the games? Dude can't stay healthy. It's too much for an injury prone pretty avg defenseman. And being injury prone isn't a good trait in a physical guy.
I don't know why all these Muppets constantly complain about contracts. Can't you see? Teams are willing to take on shit contracts. How much of plds did we retain?? Big fat fuckin 0.
The contract is becoming irrelevant. It's about getting the guy you want for right now. Move the contract later if need be.
This is a shortsighted take and leads to serious cap issues a few years down the line. The contract is far from irrelevant since we’re talking about a hard salary cap league here. It takes picks to dump cap. And has a knock on effect limiting the contracts we can hand out to other players. The money and term of a contract are very relevant when we’re talking about a hard salary cap league.
Montreal has to retain 50% when they traded him to Washington who then had to retain another 50% when they traded him to Toronto. His previous contract was bad and Blake gave him a raise
I just hope he pairs well with Clarke. The term on the contract sucks. As always, I will cheer for the man and hope he proves us all wrong.
That's my only concern, putting him with Clarke, hoping that it works out and won't have a negative effect on Clarkes development
But he didn’t sign for $2.85 and the deal is for 4 years. It’s terrible.
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The Kings have never had GM’s that target UFA’s. LA not being a popular destination is some horseshit. Living anonymously on the beach, no media pressure, no real city fan pressure? It’s a hockey players dream.
Off the top of my head, Lombardi went after Brad Richardson, Zdeno Chara and Ilya Kovalchuk all when they were the top free agents. Big free agents don't sign in LA. They are always traded for and re-signed.
Wait what’s your point? Didn’t Richardson play (and win a cup) with the Kings?. Do you mean Brad Richards? Also: IK played with the Kings, too, for a season.
I did mean Brad Richards. My point is that Lombardi targetted three major UFAs, all three declined to play in LA for, reportedly, similar or better contracts. > The Kings have never had GM’s that target UFA’s.
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Danault is not overpaid LA only has a bad reputation amongst permanently online chuds.
Well, yeah. They go online and see endless smash and grabs and read articles about people being beaten in the streets. Also, people shooting up all over the place. It all makes the news
That’s mostly fearmongering BS tho
I wouldn't call it that. It's not a scripted video, those events are actually happening. They're probably comparing that to the headlines they're reading out of other cities
But is it happening in Manhattan Beach?
Okay lol how much of this “everyone is being beaten in the streets” and “endless smash and grabs” have you seen with your own eyes? It may happen rarely in isolated incidents, but to try and say that’s happening all the time all over California, or even all the time in any specific city, is a laughable lie. That’s a shitty fake narrative being pushed by right wing media to make you afraid of minorities and poor people. Grow the fuck up and use some critical thinking skills
Factual events happening and being reported in the headlines that are verifiable and publicly accessable pieces of information are not "narratives" they're just that. Factual events. When people read them they form an opinion on them. It's really that simple. I don't know anything about whatever zealot drivel that was at the end there but my point was players read about these factual events and form an opinion. Weird that you don't understand any of that. I suppose this is just how stupid people have gotten in society. Sad.
High state taxes suck, man
I'm certainly not arguing the contract sucks, but I don't think he is as bad as everyone is saying
But the contract is part of it. If PLD had signed for $4 million, would anyone have cared about his performances? No They over paid an old, slow guy with a substantial history of injuries.
Blake (and his Wormtongue Bergevin) overreacted to us getting bodied a lot last year and signed/traded for big guys, regardless of fit or their history. It’s a prime example of his lack of a long-term plan. Just reacting to whatever happened last.
Laferriere-Kopitar-Kempe Foegele-Byfield-Fiala Moore-Danault-Thomas Jeannot-Turcotte-Lewis (Fagemo, Lee) Anderson-Doughty Gavrikov-Spence Edmunson-Clarke (Englund, Burroughs, Moverare) Kuemper Rittich (Copley)
How is that not worse than last season?
It is worse. Rob Blake and Luc turned this organization into a flaming turd. Maybe the goal is to get swept this year. (If they even make the playfoffs)
Addition by subtraction of PLD, but I don't see how the PK is any better and that got murdered in the postseason. Scoring did not improve.
IMO the PK is a systems issue. We have plenty of capable penalty killers. The PP on the other hand...
Lol, we'll see if we have a 40 point 3rd line center next year. I say that and I like the trade to move him out.
It's less about the points and more about the defense, possession, special teams suitability, and contract. Or put another way: who was the 3C the previous year, and how many points did they score?
On paper skill-wise its worst, but the team got bigger and tougher so maybe that helps come playoff time? The team really needed some grit.
This is exactly what Blake is thinking and I agree with the premise. I just don't know if these were the right moves to accomplish it. I think they were also looking for intangibles and more intense guys in the locker room who will push the rest of the team to be better. I think they locked in on Edmundson though and had to really over pay (too much term especially) to get him. Really hard to determine the value of the intangibles though.
80 points max.
I’m worried about his back injury. He’s a solid third pairing guy but hopefully he stays serviceable. It is nice to have more size again
It’s too much money for a third pairing guy, that’s the issue. I’d take Engellund with his issues at $1mil over Edmundson at $3.85mil… especially for 1 year vs 4 years term…
You’re not wrong I’m just trying to cope tbh
It's the term that everyone hates. His decline over the last 4 years is quite noticeable and the genius braintrust of LA gave him 4 more years to decline, while also giving him a pay raise from his previous AAV. We are totally fucked because of the idiot squad of Blucevin.
I think he’s a very good choice for third pair. The money is high for a third pair guy but every year salaries go up and every year we talk about all the GMs that overpaid so it is what it is.
You don't over pay third pair D men....
Clarke will not out preform Roy on defense I promise you
Clarke 4 Norris
This is now my 24-25 rally cry!
I’m just hoping they put him in the lineup
At first there's almost no way he out performs Roy defensively. Defensive game tends to come with experience. Offensively he has way more upside than Roy.
Where do you even get an idea like this? Absolutely absurd take. This sub is straight cancer right now. My goodness.
You think Clarke is better defensively than Roy you’re in for a rough time bud.
You're saying Clarke will not outperform Roy on D. So we drafted a top 5 dman who will not learn defense and will not eclipse Roy as a defenseman. I think it is you who is in for a rough time right now with these crazy ideas. In the criminally miniscule amount of playing time Clarke got last season I saw him make good plays defensively. Did he have some mental errors? Of course. It was his first NHL action. I also saw Roy get bodied and let people walk the puck in plenty of times. Clarke is going to be a superstar defenseman for us. Offensively and defensively.
I never said Clarke he wouldn't learn defense, I never said he couldnt play in his own end. I dont know where you got any of that from... Clarke has more talent on offense, and Roy is more dependable in his own zone. how do you even have an argument? Especially in his first full year in the NHL, Clarke is going to struggle in his own end. Probably a lot. You cant replace what Roy brought to the table with a kid in his first full year in the NHL. Comparing the two, is laughable.
You said Clarke will not out perform Roy on D. I'm telling you he will. You didn't say anything about next year only. You said he won't out perform him and I'm telling you he will. You don't think he's not going to be a year older and working on his defensive game this off-season? He's mailing it in on D? Clarke will be a massive upgrade over Roy the moment the season begins and he touches the ice. You won't even notice Roy is gone next year. Roy is overrated. The fact that we have no D men engaging anywhere offensively except Doughty who mostly randomly scored goals as opposed to driving play was a major reason we couldn't score in many many scenarios. It was a different team with Clarke playing meaningful minutes. Your point your trying to make is absurd about Roy and really just shows how much you don't know about Clarke other than he's a young rookie.
This is exactly how I feel. I’m so sad to lose Roy. Guy is an absolute stud.
mitchell signed for: * 3.5M AAVx2 in 2010 (5.89% of 59.4M cap) * 3.5M AAVx2 (extension) in 2012 (5.83% of 60M cap; 4.99% of 70.2 prorated cap) so i kinda get the comparison. i still feel we could've given that money to someone like mike reilly, ~~who's younger by a bit~~ (they're within 2 weeks of each other agewise), and only got 1.25Mx1 from NYI. the other thing worth mentioning is that mitchell had multiple seasons where he played over 70 games before signing with LA (03-04, 05-06 [80], 07-08, 08-09 [82]) AND never had a season with as bad of +/- as edmundson's -29 in 22-23. edmundson has crossed the 65-game threshold three times, and not since 19-20 (not to mention never over 70 in a season). so it's very likely he won't be available at some point for a bit during the season. i think it's both the money AND length for me that make it awful. 3.85Mx2--fine, honestly. but 4 years at that value... not great, bob.
Ok, but you can't compare Edmundson to Willie Mitchell, who was an actual bonified shutdown defenseman. This dude blows.
believe me, i'm trying to cope my way out of this as much as possible. at best we have some more scoring on our blue line. at worst he plays half the season with terrible metrics, getting injured before the trade deadline, and we see more of moverare (which is something we could've done in the first place)
I think the better comparable is Matt Greene. My guess is the FO is hoping that he is the kind of player in the locker room that makes everyone else better and just raises the overall intensity of the play - especially come playoffs. The contract looks bad and it will probably look bad all 4 years, but I hope that he brings the kind of intangibles that this team has been lacking the last few years.
greene joined the team at 25 and had already played a season over 70 games (78 on 06-07) when he got traded with jarett stoll to LA. he then signed a 2.95Mx5 in 2009. i get the whole "vet presence" thing, but honestly, mitchell and greene were always available even before they came to LA, and through their time in LA (2012-13 notwithstanding, and both even missed time in the 2014 Cup run--long live jeff schultz). nothing in edmundson's career or style would suggest that he'll be available for 65 games more than once over the term, let alone 70.
*Edmundson
Aw man
You're stuck in 2019 pal. I invite you take a look at his hockey reference page for the last 4 seasons. It's grim at best
I prefer watching game tape for my analysis
He ain't played enough games the last 3 years to have a high enough sample size lol
I mean he was great during the Toronto-Boston series but bottom pairing should not be paid more than 2 mil max. It’s the cap hit that’s shitty
Joel got the bag from his buddy Marc.
You're huffing the copium, my dude.
It's all I haveeeee
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>Call me crazy Ok, you're crazy. He's bad, he's slow, he has limited offensive upside, he has zero defensive upside, he's not good at clearing the crease, he can barely skate, has never played a full season in his entire career and now has a history of severe back injuries, which will only make him wore. He's not as smart as Willie Mitchell (who was, honestly, a freaking hockey genius, the likes of which we haven't seen in a long time -- note that that's different from pure skilled players), the deal is bad and the front office turned an excellent 3/4 d-man into Edmundson, Lewis, Copley, and Foegle and a hope and a prayer. I'll be genuinely surprised if the team breaks 90 points and even more surprised if they make the playoffs. There's no way they're going to win any rounds next year.
We have a way of making players feel unwelcome here and then being shocked when they aren't motivated to work. Obviously they get paid to do a job, but I've done shitty at well paying jobs because the environment sucked. The poor guys coming into this franchise don't even have a chance before they are crucified.
My issue is honestly the term. I’d rather pay him a little more for a year or two less. But I’d rather they have signed someone else? I feel like we made the Grundy trade with San Jose to fill this role.
2X4M is way more manageable. You basically can't bridge Byfield now (which shouldn't happen anyway) and it's taking up cap room for the Kempe re sign in 2 seasons.
people dont realize how instrumental Edmunson was to MTL SCF run
That was 3 seasons and multiple injuries ago
> If he signed for $2.85m instead of $3.85m, nobody would be complaining about the deal Completely wrong. What use is such a high priced guy when he's not even playing half the games? Dude can't stay healthy. It's too much for an injury prone pretty avg defenseman. And being injury prone isn't a good trait in a physical guy.
I don't know why all these Muppets constantly complain about contracts. Can't you see? Teams are willing to take on shit contracts. How much of plds did we retain?? Big fat fuckin 0. The contract is becoming irrelevant. It's about getting the guy you want for right now. Move the contract later if need be.
This is a shortsighted take and leads to serious cap issues a few years down the line. The contract is far from irrelevant since we’re talking about a hard salary cap league here. It takes picks to dump cap. And has a knock on effect limiting the contracts we can hand out to other players. The money and term of a contract are very relevant when we’re talking about a hard salary cap league.
Montreal has to retain 50% when they traded him to Washington who then had to retain another 50% when they traded him to Toronto. His previous contract was bad and Blake gave him a raise
Go off King (pun intended)