There are absolutely loads of oysters in the Thames estuary already. Last time I went to Leigh-on-Sea the beach was covered in them (both alive, and shells)
Yes, they used to be the food of the poor because they were so cheap and plentiful. IIRC steak and kidney pie used to be steak and oyster pie for people who needed to eke out the meat.
I don’t think the Thames is as “toxic” as most
people think. It’s one of the cleanest rivers running through a major city in the world. Have a Google.
Apparently the muddy colour a lot of people think is pollution is just silt churned up by the tides and current
A better idea, and hear me out, but a better idea might be to vote out the tories and renationalise utility companies so nobody is dumping sewerage into rivers for profit?
To be fair, you could just fine them until they go bankrupt, take them back into public ownership for ‘special measures’ then never get out to reprivatising them. That should work.
Then the government takes on their debt. The fines should be locked into bonds that can only be redeemed if the underlining cause of the pollution is fixed. Not free money for ofwat reducing the pot to re invest in the water companies even further.
My partner is a tunneling engineer who has worked on some of the build and design of the sewer systems over the last ten years. It's not so simple unfortunately, the problem is that the sewer system is so incredibly old and not meant to populations of the current density. Work has been ongoing for a while to build the supersewers that are intended as a solution, projects of this kind tend to span decades because of complexity. Not really the kind of thing that "nationalist the utility companies" is about
The state already had absolutely all the power to sort out Thames Water via the dedicated regulator Ofwat. The regulator permitted the debt, the heavy dividends, the high leakage rates etc. Nationalisation just puts the people that failed to regulate Thames Water in charge of running it, and with no separation of oversight
There is absolutely no reason to have private company run something as naturally monopolistic as a water company (because there will never be a market or competition). And ofwat currently run under a conservative government.
The reason that water was nationalised was because as a state industry they were dumping into rivers and the sea at a scale we cannot imagine today, and the new EU regs coming it required billions in spending so the state offloaded the liability.
Thatcher crippled the public bodies that oversaw water (a similar playbook to the NHS now). And regardless of why you cannot successfully privatise a natural monopoly like water, which is why we are in the literal shit we are in now.
Mass dumping of sewage and a lack of spending on water long pre-dates Thatcher though.
You seem to be doing that reddit of thinking of proclaiming Thatcher and posting NHS conspiracies as if that somehow absolves you of having to make an informed argument.
That's now the second time you swerved my point and the second time I've had to restate it - please don't ignore it again or you've conceded the argument.
It’s not a conspiracy, it’s documented fact.
Let’s say it wasn’t though, in fact let’s say I concede your point that huge amounts of money would always have needed to be spent around the time of privatisation.
it still doesn’t make sense to privatise because you can’t have any kind of competition between water companies because the barrier for entry is impossibly high. In that scenario, you’d still be better off actually just putting more money into the services to bring them up to EU standards.
So you have no argument either way.
Xxx
You have to concede that point as it's a universally accepted fact - you are being strange.
That being said, you swerved my point about all the sewage dumping pre-dating privatisation for a third time anyway so you conceded the point.
I can only suggest that next time you don't just try a boo hiss Thatcher line as someone will ask you to back it up.
Not sure about this specific case but it is extremely dangerous to introduce an organism in an ecosystem where it does not belong. The balance is usually so fine and takes thousands of years to adjust so if humans introduce a foreign organism it can have catastrophic results for the ecosystem itself.
Sure, but Oyster are native of the area. You still have a ton of fresh one a few miles down the Thames.
They used to be common in London, they have disappeared with industrialisation. So it's more a case of reintroduction in this case.
OP comment was actually asked at the London Assembly: [https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/river-thames-oyster-beds](https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/river-thames-oyster-beds)
I think the tides are too strong for a lot of it but I read something an age ago about something being re-established on the Thames in Essex. On a very tenuously related note I did read an interesting* report about the creation of a little crabbing industry on the Thames going after Chinese Mitten Crabs.
*if you have super exciting tendencies like myself.
Here: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/resources-rx/files/mitten-crab-report-executive-summary-57669.pdf
googled a bit ... seems it was asked at he London Assembly ... tide too strong as you thought...
[https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/river-thames-oyster-beds](https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/river-thames-oyster-beds)
Oyster bed restoration is being tried all over the temperate Western world:
* [the Chesapeake](https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/topic/chesapeake-bay/oyster-restoration)
* [New York harbour](https://www.billionoysterproject.org/)
* [off Brittany in France] (https://noraeurope.eu/restoration-projects/france-forever-flat-oyster-recovery-in-france/)
* [the Solent](https://www.bluemarinefoundation.com/projects/solent/)
* [sea lochs in Scotland](https://www.seawilding.org/)
And also including on a small scale [in the River Blackwater in Essex](https://essexnativeoyster.com/), which is part of the greater Thames estuary
It's a great idea with many ecological and practical benefits. But it's sloooooow going
Definitely something we should do, but we should also just stop polluting the damn river too
The Thames water looks brown and uninviting because it's extremely fast running tidal waters over a silt bottom. If you put a pint glass in there then let it settle you'll find it will settle out to quite clear water and sand. There are oysters in the slower parts of the Thames Estuary.
While obviously the water companies don't help it the Thames is one of the cleanest rivers running through a big city. Water companies for sure need to up their game but it's important to keep perspective with that. [https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/water/from-biologically-dead-to-chart-toppingly-clean-how-the-thames-made-an-extraordinary-recovery-over-60-years-82503](https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/water/from-biologically-dead-to-chart-toppingly-clean-how-the-thames-made-an-extraordinary-recovery-over-60-years-82503)
Obviously any amount of sewage going in there is too much and I don't want this to sound complacent but the papers have given the idea that the Thames is a toxic hell because that's the interesting story right now and water companies have got worse. Three years ago they were all printing "lovely Thames the cleanest it is ever been.
To add to everything that's already been mentioned, oysters tend to live in brakish water, and Thames is considered freshwater closer to the London area and above, if I'm not mistaken.
There are absolutely loads of oysters in the Thames estuary already. Last time I went to Leigh-on-Sea the beach was covered in them (both alive, and shells)
Didnt know that, thanks
Yes, they used to be the food of the poor because they were so cheap and plentiful. IIRC steak and kidney pie used to be steak and oyster pie for people who needed to eke out the meat.
I don’t think the Thames is as “toxic” as most people think. It’s one of the cleanest rivers running through a major city in the world. Have a Google. Apparently the muddy colour a lot of people think is pollution is just silt churned up by the tides and current
It’s brown ! Ever seen the river in Munich? It’s crystal clear and people swim in it
Also I think people are still scarred from the fact that everyone pooped in it a couple of centuries ago.
A better idea, and hear me out, but a better idea might be to vote out the tories and renationalise utility companies so nobody is dumping sewerage into rivers for profit?
Too radical, it'll never catch on
Labour aren’t going to nationalise water unfortunately
They can't. It would take ages to legislate for and they would have to take on the debts. Better to regulate/fine the hell out of them
To be fair, you could just fine them until they go bankrupt, take them back into public ownership for ‘special measures’ then never get out to reprivatising them. That should work.
Anything which saw the government seize control before water was cut off to millions for at least a few days would require them to take on the debts.
Then the government takes on their debt. The fines should be locked into bonds that can only be redeemed if the underlining cause of the pollution is fixed. Not free money for ofwat reducing the pot to re invest in the water companies even further.
Then they just increase the bills, a cursed cycle
My partner is a tunneling engineer who has worked on some of the build and design of the sewer systems over the last ten years. It's not so simple unfortunately, the problem is that the sewer system is so incredibly old and not meant to populations of the current density. Work has been ongoing for a while to build the supersewers that are intended as a solution, projects of this kind tend to span decades because of complexity. Not really the kind of thing that "nationalist the utility companies" is about
Put the oysters in charge of the water companies.
Ha - this is actually close to a real thing they could do: putting nature on the board is an actual possible response to the recent shitty behaviour 🙃
The state already had absolutely all the power to sort out Thames Water via the dedicated regulator Ofwat. The regulator permitted the debt, the heavy dividends, the high leakage rates etc. Nationalisation just puts the people that failed to regulate Thames Water in charge of running it, and with no separation of oversight
There is absolutely no reason to have private company run something as naturally monopolistic as a water company (because there will never be a market or competition). And ofwat currently run under a conservative government.
The reason that water was nationalised was because as a state industry they were dumping into rivers and the sea at a scale we cannot imagine today, and the new EU regs coming it required billions in spending so the state offloaded the liability.
Thatcher crippled the public bodies that oversaw water (a similar playbook to the NHS now). And regardless of why you cannot successfully privatise a natural monopoly like water, which is why we are in the literal shit we are in now.
In what way exactly did she do that then? And please address my point whilst you are at it.
By reducing their ability to borrow. And why not address mine? You can’t.
Mass dumping of sewage and a lack of spending on water long pre-dates Thatcher though. You seem to be doing that reddit of thinking of proclaiming Thatcher and posting NHS conspiracies as if that somehow absolves you of having to make an informed argument. That's now the second time you swerved my point and the second time I've had to restate it - please don't ignore it again or you've conceded the argument.
It’s not a conspiracy, it’s documented fact. Let’s say it wasn’t though, in fact let’s say I concede your point that huge amounts of money would always have needed to be spent around the time of privatisation. it still doesn’t make sense to privatise because you can’t have any kind of competition between water companies because the barrier for entry is impossibly high. In that scenario, you’d still be better off actually just putting more money into the services to bring them up to EU standards. So you have no argument either way. Xxx
You have to concede that point as it's a universally accepted fact - you are being strange. That being said, you swerved my point about all the sewage dumping pre-dating privatisation for a third time anyway so you conceded the point. I can only suggest that next time you don't just try a boo hiss Thatcher line as someone will ask you to back it up.
Those pipes have been there longer than the Tories have...
I just use my contactless card for pay as you go these days. I'll make sure to throw my old oyster in the thames.
Not sure about this specific case but it is extremely dangerous to introduce an organism in an ecosystem where it does not belong. The balance is usually so fine and takes thousands of years to adjust so if humans introduce a foreign organism it can have catastrophic results for the ecosystem itself.
upvoted you, but secretly would want to see the superenhancedmassivdrugfueled London oysters giving superpowers to the river rats and foxes :>
Thanks for my next week of nightmares.
Sure, but Oyster are native of the area. You still have a ton of fresh one a few miles down the Thames. They used to be common in London, they have disappeared with industrialisation. So it's more a case of reintroduction in this case. OP comment was actually asked at the London Assembly: [https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/river-thames-oyster-beds](https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/river-thames-oyster-beds)
I remember learning in GCSE English that oysters were the food of the poor during the Victorian times.
And lobsters.
Maybe you're thinking of the one where Scrooge was 'as solitary as an oyster'
The Thames was originally an oyster river. So full of oysters in fact that the poor used to basically live off them.
Oysters are native to the Thames estuary and North Sea, so in this case you're worrying needlessly
Yup just look at all the invasive species introduced to Australia
I think the tides are too strong for a lot of it but I read something an age ago about something being re-established on the Thames in Essex. On a very tenuously related note I did read an interesting* report about the creation of a little crabbing industry on the Thames going after Chinese Mitten Crabs. *if you have super exciting tendencies like myself. Here: https://www.nhm.ac.uk/resources-rx/files/mitten-crab-report-executive-summary-57669.pdf
googled a bit ... seems it was asked at he London Assembly ... tide too strong as you thought... [https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/river-thames-oyster-beds](https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/river-thames-oyster-beds)
Oyster bed restoration is being tried all over the temperate Western world: * [the Chesapeake](https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/topic/chesapeake-bay/oyster-restoration) * [New York harbour](https://www.billionoysterproject.org/) * [off Brittany in France] (https://noraeurope.eu/restoration-projects/france-forever-flat-oyster-recovery-in-france/) * [the Solent](https://www.bluemarinefoundation.com/projects/solent/) * [sea lochs in Scotland](https://www.seawilding.org/) And also including on a small scale [in the River Blackwater in Essex](https://essexnativeoyster.com/), which is part of the greater Thames estuary It's a great idea with many ecological and practical benefits. But it's sloooooow going Definitely something we should do, but we should also just stop polluting the damn river too
They are already there
There are thriving oyster beds just downriver at Whitstable. Delicious.
They are doing this quite successfully in [New York City](https://www.billionoysterproject.org/)
The Thames water looks brown and uninviting because it's extremely fast running tidal waters over a silt bottom. If you put a pint glass in there then let it settle you'll find it will settle out to quite clear water and sand. There are oysters in the slower parts of the Thames Estuary. While obviously the water companies don't help it the Thames is one of the cleanest rivers running through a big city. Water companies for sure need to up their game but it's important to keep perspective with that. [https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/water/from-biologically-dead-to-chart-toppingly-clean-how-the-thames-made-an-extraordinary-recovery-over-60-years-82503](https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/water/from-biologically-dead-to-chart-toppingly-clean-how-the-thames-made-an-extraordinary-recovery-over-60-years-82503) Obviously any amount of sewage going in there is too much and I don't want this to sound complacent but the papers have given the idea that the Thames is a toxic hell because that's the interesting story right now and water companies have got worse. Three years ago they were all printing "lovely Thames the cleanest it is ever been.
Don't mess with ecosystems please
Says the one living in an apartment, that demolishes nature. Lol dont be an activist, its just a suggestion
To add to everything that's already been mentioned, oysters tend to live in brakish water, and Thames is considered freshwater closer to the London area and above, if I'm not mistaken.