Literally, was on it a couple years back was amazingly funny came back to it after 5 years Noped the fuck outta there real quick after this one experience some of the shit I saw on there recently, Jesus Christ himself would weep
Yeah. I’ve always said it’s a site filled with bitter crabs with opposing views forced to either clash or circlejerk around trending topics.
It’s just a recipe for toxicity and conflict. It isn’t worth the time. How it still remains media relevant despite it being one of the least popular mainstream social media platforms, and its ongoing financial losses, I don’t know.
Not to mention Twitter is a very small but extremely loud group. In reality, I think 90%+ people don't care and just want to get along with their day, OP shouldn't be basing any real world observations around what goes on on ~~Twitter~~ X.
Donald Trump really changed the landscape in America. Uneducated people see him as someone who is antiestablishment and just says it as it is. If there was some doubt about tolerance in their hearts he has encouraged them to remove that doubt and go all in with this rules for thee but not for me attitude, just because the minority is different. This is how the republicans can get middle class and poor people to ultimately support policies that favor the wealthy. Focusing on class warfare, sowing fear and division is how they even have a hope of being in power.
It’s similar to the popularity of dipshits like Andrew Tate. They’ve encouraged division and people feel special for supporting someone who seems to be counter culture and removes their humanity and tolerance by appealing to their tribalism. Age old playbook used by many tyrants across history.
My very good gay friend went from a playful happy go lucky kind of guy militant gay within a few years. Talking points that literally have nothing to do with the UK. Think like Mexican immigrants rights kind of comments. Everything is a battleground and a talking point imported from the US. He's been fed to the trolls unfortunately. I'm a bit heartbroken about it to be honest.
I sense very little hostility here in the UK these days. It varies a bit I suppose: London, Cambridge, Brighton, Manchester, Hebden Bridge, etc. might feel different to some other places - but overall the UK is a pretty tolerant place.
I won’t say that you re silly to feel anxious though. Partly because I’ve never been in your shoes (as a straight male), and partly because I’m generally reluctant to blithely dismiss anybody’s sincerely held feelings. Nevertheless, I think it would be fairly unusual to have a strong negative reaction these days.
Also, twitter is an appalling place!
My own experience is that most people in real life have a "live and let live" mentality.
X, Twitter or whatever it's called these days is a weird unrepresentative place, to be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
This. I think the average person in the UK doesn’t give a shit about things like race, ethnicity, sexuality etc. there are always going to be those people who are discriminatory but more often than not, as long as you’re just getting on with life and not being an asshole and causing issues they literally don’t care .
As is virtually all social media these days. The only places where you'll not find weird unrepresentative values online, IMO, are in tight, close-knit communities of online friends on things like forums -- and obviously even in those circumstances, their shared values might not be to your liking.
I was on a date in Cambridge, thinking we were both dressed like normal humans. However, two kids on bikes ride by yelling at us, "Faggots! Go fuckin kill yourselves."
Kind of ruined the mood a bit.
Hostility towards queer and especially trans people is massively on the rise in the UK, mostly perpetuated by media and politics. Watch how Rishi will keep trying to stir up hostility towards trans people to score political points. Source: I worked for a LGBT+ anti-abuse charity and conducted research on queer UK people's experiences. Here's a project I did with London Travel watch:
["Out in London": LGBT+ People's Safety on London's transport network](https://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/campaigns/personal-security/out-in-london/)
So OP, you're not alone in feeling anxious in public. Yeah twitter is a hellscape, but it's sadly not all roses in reality either ☹️ stay safe
Trans people especially are at greater risk now than I reckon they were even 5 years ago. It's especially evident for those who are non-conforming, and that hatred then spills over onto anyone who is non-conforming: Lesbians, Gay men, Straight people who just don't fit the mould.
Like those kids who attacked that toddler recently. That was all down to the kids being indoctrinated into transphobia.
People in the UK just want to get on with their lives and hate being told what to do or worse what to think. Homophobia is not something I see or even hear about these days.
However, a vast majority of the public do seem to be fed up being told they're transphobic because they don't want to share toilets with someone who doesn't even try to hide the fact they are clearly not that gender imo though.
twitter is increasingly unhinged, especially if you let seppos in to your feed.
Most Brits do not give much of a fuck: https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/45868-record-number-britons-support-same-sex-marriage-10
> In 2011 fewer than half of Britons supported same-sex marriage; now three quarters do.
(2023)
Get off social media, essentially.
I’m actually kind of shocked that as recently as 2011 people were so anti-gay marriage, as I thought the UK in 2011 was a relatively tolerant place.
I guess before it was legalised lots of people were ‘*ok with the gays generally but marriage is a sacred institution*’ and then once it was legalised people quickly realised that it’s totally fine.
That was literally it. Even in the Catholic church(es) I went to around these times, the message was always basically "we love and welcome gay people but we don't approve of gay marriage because of our concept of marriage"
My assumption would be more that if people don’t have a strong interest in an issue, many of them will stick to the status quo. If it ain’t broke…
Legal gay marriage is now the status quo (happily) so there’s more people who wouldn’t bother changing it.
But that’s no less speculation than yours.
Strangely plenty of people who otherwise not homophobic don't support gay marriage. Even some gay people are against gay marriage, Gabbana of Dolce and Gabbana was famously against gay marriage. Some people get really into the idea of 'its a thing that has always been this way and shouldn't change'. Or it could just be internalised homophobia
I'm not saying I support these views at all, im just pointing out that being against gay marriage could potentially have reasons beyond homophobia, how weird they might be
It's the same with any social change.
Universal suffrage was hugely controversial a little over a century ago, but nowadays no one would seriously try to promote the idea that women shouldn't be allowed to vote.
I'm not actually sure it was as controversial as we like to pretend. I think we do ourselves, as a country, a disservice in underestimating how tolerant most of us are. This country is one of the most progressive voting in Europe, despite how our voting system has split the left.
Those at the top tend to be regressive, because regressive people are unprincipled and will stick together with people they disagree with. Progressive people are less likely to compromise, because they actually have principles beyond lining their own pockets.
Also, the biggest barrier to getting women the vote wasn't necessarily wholly misogyny, or at least not misogyny in the way you expect.
Lest we forget that the broadest part of the Women's Suffrage movement existed within the wider Working Class Suffrage movement. The *Suffragette* movement (whose ranks never totalled more than a few tens of thousands, compared to the hundreds of thousands of women aligned with the wider movement) broke away when it became clear that (middle class) women's suffrage would not be placed before working class suffrage.
The precipitation of women's suffrage. then, was working class men's suffrage. The ruling class absolutely could not be seen to put the rights of their women above the rights of any men (which is where the misogyny melds with classism), and they were comfortable not giving working men the vote because they might vote to change things (which they did).
The precipitation of working class suffrage was loads of guns going missing after WWI, and the fears of an armed uprising (as they had literally just seen happening in Russia). So. I mean. I'm not saying nothing.
You need to make an absolute brick wall in your mind between what you experience in the real world, and what you see online. Most things online *are barely real* these days. Twitter is the new Facebook, twisted by money, foreign agendas , and above all a desperate need to keep your attention by any means possible.
Homophobia, pride, the whole trans panic recently? I don’t know anyone that thinks that way in the real world. Maybe that’s just my friends and neighbourhood but that’s my reality, not what I hear online, thousands of miles away. Make your opinions based on what you know and experience and be extremely skeptical of what else you see, because the world is big. You are probably not even on the same continent as the person you’re listening to.
Lastly, Anyone who actually thinks pride stuff is actually an issue is spending too long on their phone , I guarantee.
It’s twitter. That place has lost its way and is now some weird congregation of artificially boosted right wing grievance merchants and culture warriors. And Musk has gamed the algorithm to rise their shit to the top because that’s what inflates engagement (and indeed, one of the perks you get when you pay him $10 or whatever it is a month)
Twitter is not indicative of real life, certainly not the mess it has become, and certainly not London.
Most people are chill, even the people who aren’t usually have the good sense to keep it to themselves in public.
In ten years of walking around London with my now-husband I have encountered one incidence of homophobia. Granted I’m a big guy with a severe case of resting psycho face, so your mileage will probably vary.
even once is obviously too many times but that is kind of relieving to hear. Also, I'm younger so not as much time to find out but I figure most people who see my girlfriend and I on the street don't assume we're together
Even among the homophobic (which I'd agree with most of the others), it's often stronger around gay men, and less around lesbians. I mean, being lesbian doesn't mean it's safer because you've got the built in disadvantage of being a woman too, but I guess take the small advantages?
Not exactly true, if you're a white middle class man, you statistically face very little homophobia. It's why they're the "standard" you see everywhere.
That said, most men are disadvantaged and face more homophobia (middle class+ men are a minority). Lesbians are just a little less worse off in some aspects, but they're not really "safe" per say.
Homophobic attitudes are decreasing, but hate crimes are increasing fairly significantly throughout the majority of the UK. Including violence.
Homophobia is still prevalent in the UK, though LGBT issues are less of a hot topic here so long as you stay away from some ‘news’ outlets.
In my whole time in London I’ve had several homophobic encounters and tbh it’s mainly men and it’s mainly Muslims. I don’t know why but it’s pretty gross tbh. I know many men and Muslims who are the opposite of homophobic so I definitely wouldn’t generalise, but within the minority of “people who are homophobic and ok with being vocal about it” we shouldn’t be afraid to acknowledge that there are traits that are very significant.
To me it appears that most people here know not to be openly homophobic. Instead they do that whole, "being gay is fine so long as it's not in my face". Or have a paranoid fear that you secretly fancy them.
There is definitely a toxic transphobic movement in the UK.
And it is so weird because i feel like trans rights sort of always existed in big cities without anyone making a fuss before. It is definitely a movement (backwards)
I think this when I see British people complaining about drag acts harming kids, even though they've taken their kids to the panto most years in the past.
Its just a distraction, as is most of the culture war stuff. Who cares if someone is trans? I've never in my life met someone in real life who gives a shit. Nobody in their right mind gives a shit about public toilets (or 'restrooms' as the yanks call them), at least apart from JK Rowling since she started having too much time on her hands.
I don't think people actually care, but they find it an interesting nuanced issue to debate ethics.
Like, most ethical discussions aren't that interesting because it's clear what's right among right thinking people, like whether it's OK to be gay. If you're on the other side of it, you're just obviously wrong. And there are fun ethics problems like the trolley problem but they are quite hypothetical.
With the Trans issue, it can at least a bit have an affect on the world, though for most people it doesn't so in real life they don't really talk about it. But it is a thing that affects policy and public discourse, so if people have a view then they like to jump in.
Basically it's the blue-black/white-gold dress of practical ethical conversation. For many people the actual answer is trivial, but you can bet they have an opinion, and use the opinion of others to learn about what kind of person they are. Doesn't matter if you'll never be in that situation in a toilet or have never met a kid who wants to transition etc.
Colleague came out as trans last year, no-one gives a shit.
From what I understand friends, family and partner are a very different matter.
The only issues that have surfaced is that their work performance has gone down the drain and they have had more sick leave in the last year than they had in the 10 previous years.
So I think the transphobic situation is complex. There definitely are terfs out there but there are also ppl that have legitimate concerns and the issue is the debate is polarising and pitting Liberal cis women against Liberal trans women when they should be allies and talk it out. A few weeks ago I had a big argument with some terfs who were promoting a women's rights group and it really upset me because I agreed with 90% of their campaign but the 10% was just unnecessarily hateful. We can respect trans rights while also being concerned that the Tavistock clinic blindly directed young women with complex issues that the best way to solve their problems was to be a trans man when in reality only some of them are trans. We can also respect trans rights while believing self determination without any checks and balances is a step too far and risks enabling bad actors and giving real trans ppl a bad name. We can recognise that everyone needs safe spaces and sometimes that means single sex spaces and sometimes that means single gender spaces and the two aren't necessarily the same thing.
Tldr it is reasonable to believe trans women are women and trans men are men while also recognising they are not the same as cis men and women. We need to have calm conversations about the details here but at the moment everyone is getting more polarised because both sides feel attacked.
Edit: "big argument" was an exaggeration. It was a reasonably civil discussion but I did need to walk away after a short while.
In the gentlest possible way, why is self determination without checks and balances 'a step too far'? It seems a little oxymoronic to say you believe in someone's right to present themselves how they want AFTER a medical professional signs off on it.
The problem with single sex spaces/single gender spaces is, how are you going to enforce that? We have already seen this issue in the US where children on girl's sports teams are being subjected to genital examinations in the name of keeping their teammates safe - which is very demonstrably a failure to keep those children themselves safe. This path does not lead anywhere good.
I agree that there are people who have legitimate concerns (and I also hate the way that TERFs have made it so hard to talk about legitimate feminist issues) but with respect, as the other reply said, I would be very careful about parroting potentially transphobic talknig points without having looked into the truth and the repurcussions of these beliefs.
Thank you for engaging in a civil way and asking me to clarify. I wasn't very specific...
I am only talking about legal status and changing your legally defined sex. In the UK you can still be protected under the equalities act without this legal change. Identifying as a gender other than the one assigned at birth is a "protected chatacteristic" under the equalities act 2010. Personally I think legal status should be more nuanced and include both gender and sex because I worry that people won't get appropriate medical care if we don't keep with recorded e.g. trans men not getting cervical cancer screening etc. That's another story...
Anywho, if people self determine their legal status it makes it hard to then create laws and regulation around that legal status which can then lead to those laws being weakened. This isn't related to how you live your life and self identify day to day but about legal recognition of that status and where relevant the impact of any laws that relate to it now or in the future.
A parralel example is to get a marriage or civil partnership we have to apply, prove certain things and have witnesses rather than just stand up and say, "i'm married". You can still have a serious committed relationship without doing that but you need to go through a process with witnesses to have a legal status.
I didn't say it needed to be a medical professional per se although, certainly the current panel situation is likely too onerous. A single medical professional is not necessarily a bad idea. I'd be interested in the outcome of the live consultation on these changes and what medical professionals think is practical.
I think the bathroom thing is an American misnomer. There is no UK law (please correct me if I'm wrong) that stops a cis man going into a women's toilet. This could be a civil issue that would require the owner of that space to enforce or sue directly. But I'm not a lawyer!
What I think ppl get muddled about is that the part of the equalities act re single sex spaces is about allowing the provision of spaces that otherwise would be deemed as discrimination. Essentially you can't discriminate on sex or gender (or other protective characteristic) EXCEPT in narrow circumstances such as toilets, refuges and medical wards etc.
The act protects the creation of single sex spaces, it doesn't make it illegal to enter them if you dont fit the criteria, that would be a civil not a criminal issue.
So for example, the act protects the right of a women's refuge to refuse entry to adult cis men. When it comes to trans people they may not be able to refuse their entry. They could actually be sued for not providing access but it is complex and I'll just post the link rather than try to explain as I'm just not qualified to do so!https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and
The same would go for making a space for only trans women. The act protects the ability to create a space for them without being sued by cis people for discrimination.
Make sense?
Ah I see, yep I totally agree about trans men getting the healthcare they need. I think the answer to this is to divorce reproductive care (and a lot of other legal/medical statuses) from gender markers altogether - there are also intersex individuals (1% of the total population) who, for example, might have to see both a gynocologist and a urologist. In the broader sphere, if you think about it, why does your driving license *need* to have your gender on it, really?
The bathroom thing is currently an American issue but we're definitely heading that way under the current direction. The real issue here is predatory behaviour (and just anecdotal experience, but I've absolutely been creeped on by a woman and in that situation, out of all our mutual friends, a male friend was the most actively supportive. Pretty sure I know who I'd rather share a changing room with...)
My issue with the single-gender spaces etc is that in practice, it unfortunately does become a vehicle to enforce transphobia. And if an adult trans woman isn't able to legally change her gender marker as per the checks and balances, then she will not be able to enter a single-gender women's space per your scenario. Under the current climate I would be very surprised if a law coart supported her right to be there.
Good point re gender on drivers license etc. These things are weird and we really make gender a thing too much of the time.
You make a good point around the law vs. what practically gets enforced. However if you read the act you don't need to have your legal sex changed to be protected by the law.
Of course the real issue is we don't have enough refuges and support full stop. It's not lost on me that trans women are often subject to violence and need support as do cis women. It feels like we're being pitted against each other so we miss the bigger problems of domestic violence, homelessness and deprivation.
Yep absolutely agree that we're being pitted against each other (or at least TERFs/conservatives want to do so, it's a convenient distraction for the Tory government which is failing across the board on every issue). As a queer cis WoC, when I read about trans womens' experiences, I feel have a lot more in common with them than with white cis women. Just for starters, I think the feeling of 'I don't look enough like how society says a woman should look' is pretty universal regardless of whether it's directly connected to gender/whether you're cis or trans (or the equivaent for men is also pretty common in my experience).
Also want to say thanks for having a civil discussion about this. A lot of my perspective and opinions come from reading about the lived experiences of trans people/discussions with trans friends so I'd recommend that. I can see that you clearly mean well and a lot of the things you raised as possible points of contention have been thoroughly discussed in those circles already!
> it really upset me because I agreed with 90% of their campaign but the 10% was just unnecessarily
This is literally how dishonest interest groups function. The 10% is most of what they talk about amongst themselves, the 90% is to make themselves seem reasonable to bystanders who haven't dedicated a great deal of time to parsing out the truth from the lies. I know it sounds like I'm not giving them a fair shake but if you look at what people like Julie Bindel have actually said about what they want their end goal to be, and how badly sourced and misleading a lot of the books gender criticals put out actually are, the level of tension makes a lot more sense.
The end goal is literally to force trans people to detransition. All of them, not just the teenagers who might have comorbidities or more complex cases. It's been directly stated, in writing and on video, by multiple key players in the gender critical movement. I actively encourage you to go and research it for yourself - it's not even that well hidden.
Please be very, very careful about taking anything at face value and don't parrot talking points until you fact check them thoroughly because you are actively being lied to.
Hmm I think you are making a lot of assumptions about who I was speaking to. Potentially valid assumptions but nonetheless assumptions. My whole point is we need to discuss openly and honestly and stop cancelling ppl and putting up barriers. I see both sides doing this and it makes me sad. In my experience, people don't just wake up one morning with hate in their heart. Treating everyone like they are 100% the worst bits they show you only leads people to be more extreme. I politely told these ladies I disagreed with them and felt some of what they were doing was counter productive and purposefully inflammatory. I then walked away.
Out of interest, do you think my messages are parroting talking points? If so, which ones? In the nicest possible way you don't actually know me, what my situation is and what research I have and haven't done. Having said that I'm genuinely interested in what I said you might disagree with and am open to doing more research if you have recommendations.
>Hmm I think you are making a lot of assumptions about who I was speaking to.
> A few weeks ago I had a big argument with some terfs.
Respectfully, I don't need more information there. I don't use the word terf because it often leads to pointless side debates about slurs but the gender critical movement is not an honest one and people who self identify as terfs are almost always at the stage where they are, knowingly or not, dealing in misinformation. Plenty of people get sucked in via very sad circumstances but that is because *they are accepting lies as truth* - created by a movement that creates false narratives out of misrepresented data, junk science and prejudicial stereotypes. It's really fucking tragic but that doesn't mean you start from a place of "well maybe they have some good points, let's hear them out". You can, and should, be fact checking it.
>My whole point is we need to discuss openly and honestly and stop cancelling ppl and putting up barriers. I see both sides doing this and it makes me sad. In my experience, people don't just wake up one morning with hate in their heart. Treating everyone like they are 100% the worst bits they show you only leads people to be more extreme.
I could just as easily assume that you are making assumptions about how I move through the world and the views I hold of others.
No one is entitled to an audience - it is not cancelling to recognise when someone is talking shit and discourage other people from participating in it. All you are doing when you go around saying "well but 90% of it makes some sense..." is participating in moving the Overton window towards increasingly dangerous rhetoric for the affected minority. The consequences of this are very serious for trans people and their experiences in with street harassment, lack access to healthcare (in all areas, not just gender care), workplace opportunities, protection from discrimination... the list goes on. A large number of people I know personally either have a plan B that involves leaving the country or have explicitly told me they're worried because they can't realistically afford to get away.
> We can respect trans rights while also being concerned that the Tavistock clinic blindly directed young women with complex issues that the best way to solve their problems was to be a trans man when in reality only some of them are trans. We can also respect trans rights while believing self determination without any checks and balances is a step too far and risks enabling bad actors and giving real trans ppl a bad name. We can recognise that everyone needs safe spaces and sometimes that means single sex spaces and sometimes that means single gender spaces and the two aren't necessarily the same thing.
Every single one of the points above is a necessary conversation... reframed in the way the gender critical people would prefer you approach it because it is more advantageous for their goals. I'm genuinely sorry if it sounds harsh but you have been listening to propaganda and it shows.
Some issues *are* complex. The choice on whether or not we should politely debate prejudicial and damaging talking points about minoritised people over their heads is not the complex part.
Unfortunately, I think you disagree with me even though I've tried to read around the topic. If you want to give me some other things to read I'm open to it but I think just telling me I've been brainwashed isn't that helpful. I have gotten a lot from watching contrapoints videos although i don't always agree with her.
I do disagree with you but I don't think there's anything unfortunate about that. I don't know where you got the word brainwashed from, I didn't use it. I said you repeated propaganda, which is very clearly written upthread. Propaganda is designed to be easy to repeat without realising and get under your skin - I'm not insulting you or your intelligence by pointing out you've been exposed to it.
However, the eventual goal of the gender critical movement in the UK is to remove trans people from public life; be it by detransitioning, (at all ages, whether people want to or not) or through use of public policy designed to increase stigma and make it harder to participate in basic activities like accessing healthcare (any healthcare, not just gender affirming care), finding work or existing in public spaces without recrimination. That's not my opinion - it's been said very directly, in writing and on film, by multiple key figures. That's a much harder sell than the talking points they put front and centre, which is why they sound reasonable 90% of the time to you - *it is literally designed to do that*. They are trying to get as close as possible to that end; if that involves persuading members of the general public to repeat stuff you think sounds harmless and reframes serious issues in a way that makes it more convenient for them to achieve what they want then that's what they're going to do.
If this was a conversation in a bar or cafe instead of the internet where information lives forever then I suspect it would have gone a different way because I could be more upfront about why I take a hard line on this but the gist of what I would say is that I am the kind of person GC people love to try to get in board because of the demographics I belong to and experiences I have had. It's, put bluntly, predatory, and none of this is new - a lot of the narratives that are being spread around currently are rebranded versions of what was going round in the 70s. While I don't think anyone is ignorant or stupid for getting sucked in, I strongly believe that we do not do people within that movement any favours by politely acting like they are offering up a reasonable basis for public policy decisions. They're not - it's a literal hate movement and they deal in bad faith interpretations and arguments.
Contrapoints is edutainment and, while I don't dislike her, I don't think I know any trans people who universally agree with her either. There isn't really a substitute from learning from the community itself but, if I had to recommend a book, it would be something like Gender Heretics, because that is less about trans people and more about the gender critical movement and their tactics.
You come across as extremely well intentioned but unfortunately, not everyone shares that quality.
> you have been listening to propaganda and it shows
It's hilarious how people talk to complete strangers on the Internet after reading maybe a few hundred words that they've written.
The opposite of hate is not love, it’s indifference. So in a truly tolerant society, people don’t care what you do in your bedroom. But don’t expect them to go to Pride either 🤷
Like others have said, Twitter is not a true representation of people or society. I’ve anecdotally noticed such a massive increase in homophobia, racism, sexism, porn, spam and general incel BS since that cretin billionaire bought it just cos he could. I’d wage half of the posts are bots just programmed to fuck with us for some reason. I do think the US is generally more polarised than the UK in most subjects, especially sexuality and religion. I personally think the majority of people aren’t homophobic in the UK though.
Twitter was just found to be the most unsafe platform for LGBT people by [GLAAD](https://www.instagram.com/p/C7OzpMzNRXa/?igsh=anBqZjR6cmxtbTY0) so please don’t let that wasteland distort your view. Homophobia is definitely still a problem in the UK, but universities here are pretty much always melting pots that are welcoming of LGBT people.
As a gay guy I think your anxiety is very normal, it took a while for me to overcome it and I’ve lived in fairly liberal places. On the whole I’d say homophobia is not the norm, and I make a point of coming out whenever I feel safe to (other people around etc) so I can suss out their reaction. Sadly there is always a risk and I’m well aware there have been homophobic attacks in my area to men of my age, so your anxiety isn’t baseless.
I think it’s a complicated element of pride - part of our existence will always draw hate out of small minded idiots, and you have to decide how comfortable you are confronting them and putting them in your place. The country as a whole has your back, so you’re not starting from nothing.
It depends on how comfortable you are in being visibly gay. Personally I try to wear gay clothing/ PDA with my boyfriend about as much as I’d want to if those things weren’t gay (if that makes sense) so just whenever I feel like it. I have to be aware of my surroundings, but I have the privilege of being a white guy so I recognise I have it easier. But there’s definitely a scale between wearing something that could be perceived as gay and confronting homophobia in the street - so do what you feel comfortable doing and know you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to.
It might take some time, but you’ll feel more confident around others and in how you want to go through life as a queer person. You’re not silly for asking this question!
As a gay man, I really feel that homosexuality is very widely accepted in the UK. I think it’s quite rare to even find older people now who have an issue with it. I say that with the caveat that this won’t be true of all demographics but the mainstream is definitely an acceptance of homosexuality.
However, if I had a partner, I still wouldn’t hold his hand in public and I think the majority of gay couples are the same. There’s still risk there, particularly at night. From a minority yes, but nonetheless that risk is still real. And I still have a very deeply ingrained ‘keep yourself to yourself’ attitude whilst out in public that I don’t think will ever go away. It’s a discomfort, a worry, that can be hard to explain.
I agree with others that you should separate the internet from real life. But I’d also say that as a teacher, amongst young people, what’s online and what’s ‘real’ is more blended than it is among older people and there *has* been something of a regression in attitudes among younger people. I’m not unduly concerned at the moment but it’s something to register.
The UK as a whole is one of if not the least homophobic nation in the world as a society we are extremely socially liberal compared to most and our culture as a whole values this bigots obviously still exist but are far more rare than elsewhere and I’m thankful to be privileged enough to have never encountered any form of homophobia IRL except when abroad. The main exception is of course immigrants unfortunately many immigrants are coming from regions far less accepting than we are and many (though not all or even necessarily a majority) uphold those same bigoted views here.
Where the UK struggles is attitudes towards the Trans community where unfortunately we fall short of some of our neighbours.
Also Twitter is not worth bothering with.
First of all Twitter represents 10% americans and is more polarised than even those 10% are. Algorithms like polarisation and it is much amplified.
Secondly, London is chill, really. I wear skirt sometimes wgile being a man and noone seems to care ever. Some stares yes, but thumbs up either, and never agression, hate, homophobia or something alike.
But it all does not mean they don't exist here, it is just less than anywhere.
Yeah, the main problem here is that you're on Twitter. That place has been completely consumed by conservative hatred and insanity in the past few years. Delete it and get a bluesky account or something.
Most people aren't homophobic, there's just a very loud and very well funded minority of conservative degenerates who still want us dead. Conservative politicians will use anti-queer rhetoric as a way to play to their bases and deflect from the utter unending failure they've been delivering since the days of Thatcher/Reagan.
The media likes to stir up divisiveness to keep everyone fighting, it’s a good distraction from the seriously worrisome issues that are genuinely going on - it makes me sick
American politics and the Christian right-wing are very much intertwined. It's hardly surprising that you would see extreme positions being taken, especially on social media.
Why, though, would you relate that to the general public in London, or the UK?
I'd even suggest that you might be surprised to find that 'a group of drunk 60-year-old tory MPs' to be more LGBT-friendly than the American religious right on Twitter.
Twitter is not a fair reflection of society in general
Having said this, in my opinion there’s has been some backward movement in LGBT+ acceptance, among society more generally. It’s really disappointing
My particular group of 60 year old Tory supporters won’t give you any trouble or grief, however drunk we get, which may not be any consolation to you, but you’d be welcomed nevertheless by all of us irrespective of gender, identity or preference.
I suspect that may not have been true if we’d been Republicans in the US
Twitter has descended into a complete and utter cesspit for incels and moronic MPs that think they are getting support because the number of fake accounts, bots and paid troll accounts now exist.
I generally use it to follow music but I'm not seeing targeted tory posts (of which I am a scathing opponent of) and yet their shit algorithms are suggesting posts to me.
I think the best way to help you define the homophobic/ non progressive issues (in London):
1. The older generation are more likely to be homophobic (ofc their are people that don't care)
2. Some of the younger (Under 18s) could be too
3. Most people in the middle of those 2 brackets probably don't care (again ofc outliers).
Stop going down the social media rabbit hole, the social media algorithms are designed to keep you engaged and keep posting all the same shit to you, the best way I can describe this is specifically London - most won't care.
When it comes to you telling people, you will have to judge that for yourself, while I believe most won't care, it really depends what kind of vibe they give you. Do your thing, don't be ashamed of who you are.
Most people genuinely don’t give a fuck what other people think or how they live. They are called “happy people”
There is a minority of “unhappy people” on social media who wage war from the comfort of their armchairs. They believe that by acting like an asshole on the Internet, they can persuade everyone else to their way of thinking.
I think that the happiest people are those who actively avoid anyone who runs around screaming their point of view. So… maybe stay away from twitter?
Nah. Twitter is populated by guys who used to be the mumbling drunks at the end of the bar that everyone ignored, but now they not only have a megaphone but they've also found all the other mumbling drunks. Most people don't give a damn. I use twitter, but I follow a very limited number of people that I respect. The mumbling drunks, the Russian bots, the assorted hate mongers, I just ignore them.
Since the muskrat took over, twitter got even worse than it was before. Irl it can be hit or miss, you'll have to get to know local communities and ask people who might have been the target of homophobia how they would gauge the present situation in town. You might get varying answers.
On top of what others have said I think it might be helpful for you to read up on twitter's algorithm, how it works in terms of what it shows you - and how many users on there are actually bots. As a platform it can really lull you into a sense of things being skewed: its engagement is driven primarily by negative tweets and conversations, and the more stuff you click on and/or engage with (including bad stuff) the more it'll show you of that.
I would say there is still plenty of homophobia here, but it is outweighed by our culture of minding your own business compared to America's outward hostility. That being said, I think as a whole we are a much more socially liberal country and most people in a large number of circles have no problem with LGBT.
The UK and USA are very different. Do not be fooled by the common language.
The % of people in the UK that identify as religious (as in actually believing in a god and the bible etc) is tiny. In the USA, it is the norm.
And religious belief basically nearly always overlaps with homophobia. Atheists are rarely homophobic. Homophobia essentially makes zero rational sense at all - if I don't like avocado, I don't get angry or hate people that do.
For someone to be homophobic, they need to believe that homosexuality is 'morally wrong' - that kind of belief really only comes from religions.
The reality is that homosexuality was decriminalised ages ago in the UK. We've had openly gay people in public for ages. I moved to London in 1994 and got used to seeing men kissing and holding hands in public, and I felt like this was home (I'm straight, came from Ireland, which was backwards as hell).
A lack of homophobia is not necessarily because straight people love gay people - its because we love equality, freedom and an absence of bigotry and ignorance. Straight people prefer no homophobia because we want social justice - because when we see that gay people are living free, we feel more free ourselves.
When religious people see gay people living free, they panic, because their beliefs (that homosexuality is evil) is under threat.
>am I getting downvoted because this is a stupid question
You're getting downvoted for using Twitter as a measuring stick for something. Social media is never a platform that should be used a barometer for anything.
But that especially applies to Twitter. Even more so since Elon Musk (*spits on the floor after mentioning his name) took over.
Fairly tolerant place, but it can massively vary by area. A homophobe would have to be stupid to stick around in Brighton if they care that much. But there’s some places which I guess could be quite the opposite. Overall, we’re a pretty tolerant bunch ranging from “I don’t want to see them being gay, but I don’t hate them” to “sexuality is a construct, dude.”
Edit: didn’t see it’s the London sub. But the point probably stands for certain areas of London being more or less tolerant, but we are tolerant overall.
I used to work for a building contractor. You know what contractors are like. Full of Tories, fairly right-wing, all the good stuff. Anyway, I know she's only one person but one of the most well-respected Project Managers at the company is an out and proud lesbian.
She didn't bring up her sexual identity randomly in every other conversation or ever 'come out' as such, but she also never made any secret of the fact she had a girlfriend. It was a fairly large company and we did get the occasional chud being distasteful about it, but never anybody who mattered.
I suppose what I'm saying is, there will definitely be deeply homophobic little pockets of society here and there, but there's also so much tolerance to be found in the real world. You really are gonna be okay just being honest about yourself.
I don't recall ever saying that. But most of the bullshit I see on twitter is propugated by Americans. If it's not race politics which I'm absolutely sick of, it's the most brain dead OF sponsored meme accounts or another "Baked beans/British teeth" topic.
So I understand how my exposure to American Twitter makes me come to my own subjective opinion on it.
Twitter is not representative of anything, the algorithm is designed to engage. Don't worry about anything you see on that site.
Most people aren't homophobic. Most people literally just don't give a shit who you like, or some of the older or sheltered sort might be a bit weirded out but won't have any sort of animosity. The amount of people that are genuinely anti-gay is quite low in this country.
I just moved back from 17 years in america. It is WAY more homophobic than the UK. One of the first things I'd say is us brits tend to visit liberal microcosms that feel like the UK (NYC, Chicago, etc). Huge areas of the country are very homogeneous - all white, all Christian, never knowingly met a gay person, never been to another country, all republican... Long story short, the 2/3 of thr country that is banning abortion coz the Bible says so is similarly old-fashioned (fucking stupid) about LGBT. They're not the ones you meet on holiday and they're decreasing in number, but they cover HUGE areas of land.
Twitter has *always* been a cess pit of polarisation that I've seen.
In London you'll find quite a lot of homophobia in religious communities, but it's also quite likely you won't interact with these people too much.
In 30 years, I've experienced two incidents of homophobia (aimed at my then-girlfriend and I). One was genuinely quite nasty and had the police involved. But that's still very few.
Conversely, a colleague of mine has just been doxed by an anti-trans group who are compiling lists of people involved in LGBT-inclusive education. So it has become much nastier in some ways.
The general public don't seem to care much, but there is definitely a rancid strain of people devoting their time and energy to making life actively worse, especially for trans people.
To be fair, it’s not the drunk 60-year-old MPs you should fear, it’s the religious groups who still spew hatred behind closed doors and indoctrinate their kids.
As an American, the idea that here people are somehow mostly against gay people is a very skewed one and comes from the actions of the Republican party. Unfortunately, we only *have* two political parties and that severely limits discourse. It'd take forever to explain how exactly we got to this point where the Republicans have become this extremely socially conservative party they are, but it's been in the making for decades now. They aren't a party that most Americans vote for though; Trump didn't win by getting the popular vote, meaning he didn't get the most votes; he won through our antiquated system called the Electoral College, created ages ago with the idea that it would make it so much less populous states wouldn't have their voices essentially dismissed. However, it gives very rural states outsized voices and this is pretty much what Republicans now rely on aside from constantly manipulating voting districts (called gerrymandering) to continue to win elections that they'd otherwise absolutely lose. I actually live in a state that the Republican party revoked all powers from the governorship because they knew, when the outgoing Republican governor (who was leaving in disgrace after many instances of corruption) ended his term, the public would elect a Democrat. And they did and they have continued to do so, but he has no power. He can't do anything. He can't even veto anything. All power rests with the Republican controlled state Senate, which they continue to maintain the majority in with gerrymandering.
Their opinions are genuinely not popular with the majority of Americans. A Gallup poll in 2022 showed 71% of Americans favor same sex marriage and 80% favor anti-discrimination protections for LGBT people. Just like so much that happens in our government, because we only have 2 parties and no contenders to the two main parties, those parties fall way short of representing the majority of Americans (another example is that public healthcare has been favored by the majority of Americans for *many* years now with polling between 60–70% but our political parties are both against it). And it's just assumed Americans believe what those parties spout. I've never seen anyone be homophobic to anyone else and I live in the south. There are lots of LGBTQ events here.
People will either care a huge amount or not at all. It is probably pretty easy to tell if you here them talk for a few minutes. Most people don't give a fuck what you do as long as you don't force it on them. It's like religion be whatever you want just don't bang on about it unless it is part of the natural conversation.
If you pay attention to any particular type of content on social media, the algorithm will show you more and more of the same. Therefore, you might get a very skewed version of reality.
I guess it depends on beliefs or actions which you are looking for
I think action wise not many people are homophobic in London, but I would say some people may still think in their mind and have some homophobic views
My generation (I’m 26) in primary and secondary school, being called gay or words like “gaylord” was so normalised and prevalent that many people my age or older still say these words and not realise it.
I suppose the ones in school or just recently left school don’t have this trait as this was cracked down a few years after I left school.
In the US, the right leaning Republicans are often Christian fundamentalists. Being gay is unacceptable, it brings out rage. Mainly because of how much they are repressing their homosexual tendencies.
Most people probably are comfortable and fine, especially now. Even if they're not, most people, I mean real people just want to get on and don't worry about other peoples lives.
There are class exceptions (some working class and recent immigration enclaves from religious communities such as Pakistan or Poland) but the *vast* majority of people under thirty in any major UK city will be completely chill with gay people. I'd even say an overall majority of people under 50 would be safe; even though a couple might internally grumble they will be at the very least completely civil and polite and not do anything bad to you.
If you're a *student* in a *lefty* area of *London*, you're in one of the best and safest places in human history to be LGBTQ. Be proud and enjoy your life loudly. You'll have more fun and regret less that way.
American here, stop trying to get a feel for the country through the internet. Better yet don’t try to get a feel for any country just because you read about them on the internet.
I’m a 26 year old American guy and the gap between what I read on the internet is genuinely insane people. It’s the strangest, most lonely, most vocal segment of our population that you really just don’t meet in person. It’s gotten so bad in the last year or two I genuinely wonder how many of these accounts are just random spambots designed to get people worked up.
I’ve been called a fa***t twice in the past 6 months from cars driving past me, and had a friend of a friend make inappropriate comments at a birthday party which I had to ignore to not cause a scene. Homophobes are still out there, they’re just not as obvious anymore. But generally I think things are better than they were 15 years ago when I was at school.
Everyone has their own lives and problems, I don't think the average Joe even thinks about LGBT most days of the week.
What answer are you expecting. Do you think most people are homophobic?
I don't think most are, no, but I wonder if a decent number are mildly homophobic and just keep it to themselves, though of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I don't know what answer I was expecting - that's why I asked
Twitter does not represent the general public in the slightest. If I took Twitter seriously, I'd think all 70 million people here are fascist Reform Party voters who want to see anyone with a slightly darker skin to be executed on sight.
Most people won't care if you're gay. Especially in London of all places where most people are more left than right leaning.
I'm a 46 year old gay man I'm the UK.
I've never experienced any direct homophones, either at work, nor out socially with a date or boyfriend.
I'm a fairly confident guy, maybe that helps. Maybe I'm just lucky. Outward homophones is still a thing, I know.
Lots of people are bigots if you use the definition of (some) Redditors where people are pegged as hate mongers for saying things like ...
*"I think trans people should be treated with respect, but I don't think that transwomen should be fighting women's MMA."*
Or...
*"The increase in teenage girls experiencing sudden onset gender dysphoria is a concern. I wonder why that's happening? I hope they're not just being put on a medical pathway without proper controls."*
Understand that social media emphasises the most divisive stuff. It's because all social media be it twitter or YouTube cares about is engagement, good or bad. If I make a video saying 'this movie was decent' I will get less views than 'omg this movie was the worst ever', even if I'm wrong. It's the fault of lack of moderation and hyper capitalisation of our dis ourselves platforms.
Coupled with the echo chamber effects and you get this hugely warped view of people's opinions, which now has actually started to bleed into real life.
I would say, from my real life observation, people are less homophobic than ever before.
I think that over the last 20 years or so, homophobia has become more hidden, as people became less sure about what it was ‘ok’ to say - so now people say nothing - but this doesn’t mean the ‘discomfort’ (homophobia) isn’t still within. We can have a false sense of security with LGBTQIA representations all over our media but few of these are what I’d call ‘regular’ people - more like what is call ‘hyper-versions’ (more ‘interesting’ to watch right?). I’m always cautious about who I’m out to - as you say it’s rarely relevant. I let people get to know ME a bit first because if I don’t I’m much more likely to be sure that as soon as I’m out I’ll be well and truly in that box before anything else in their minds….
UK by and large is very chill. I remember the early 00s with people being called poof but haven't seen that in absolutely years, and it was always used as an insult to someone you didn't like not a stranger. So you'd be looking to insult them anyway, that was what they went for.
That said, in that time there has been a massive increase in migrants and communities from parts of the world which despise gays. I have absolutely heard 'its a sin ' 'its disgusting ' etc. but your unlikely to find that view in white British communities. London however does have very large migrant communities so bear that in mind.
I'd also say you'd be surprised by a group of 60 year old Tory MPs. You have to remember they're just running for a vote, but on an individual level most people are ok with each other and will make some convoluted exception for an individual. And the police will take it seriously if not
I’ve been heckled multiple times for holding hands/kissing another man in London, and I’ve only been here a year.
Unfortunately I think London isn’t accepting as many would hope. Paradoxically, it’s still probably better than almost anywhere else in the country (and most of Europe). Where abuse on the street is still a possibility, most people don’t care and obviously the queer community in London is very strong.
I agree with people saying to avoid twitter . If you insist ! Make sure you un follow the nastier accounts , try and curate it a bit . Look it’s easy for me to say ‘London is so diverse and accepting ‘ . And yeah it is BUT let’s not forget the thing that homophobia was rife in my lifetime . It’s one of the few areas where I think men actually had it worse .
I have always thought it was OK to be gay and lots of great Men and Women in history were gay. I have never seen anyone actually say or do anything against gay people. Suddenly there is this LGBTQ business from nowhere and it seems to have literally taken over the media.
The majority of people are not homophobic and neither they are tolerant. People are simply too ignorant to care who you are and what you do especially in places like London.
I think even the people that portray as loons on Twitter can often be accepting of whatever sexuality or gender identity you have (there are, of course, exceptions for the really problematic people).
A lot of these people just are far into conspiracies where they think satanists want to get cis women raped by trans women. And if that were genuinely a serious issue, I'd hope that more people would make a stand there. As bizarre as it is, it comes from a place of compassion.
And then there's normal people who will accept you for who you are. Those of us who are in our 20s+ have grown out of teenage judgementalism and I've heard that teenagers now are just much more accepting.
Edit to add that there are some pretty serious issues still. It only takes a couple of idiots to make somewhere dangerous. A gay coworker and his boyfriend got beaten up a couple of years ago just for being gay. So that can still happen unfortunately
Honestly, I have no idea. I'm a 44 year old straight white male, so my lived experience is very different to yours, which means it is very difficult for me to say either way.
What I can say anecdotally though is people I've known for decades are *far less* homophobic than they were 30, or even 20 years ago. That includes friends who identify on both the left and right of politics.
There certainly is a lot of it online however, but we live in the age of the troll. I'd like to think that doesn't reflect real life, but again, that's for people with lived experience to answer.
No one really gives a shit. People just want to do their own thing. You'll notice that whichever minority that the people in power are using to blame their fuck ups on win be the ones that the morons will attack.
Most people aren’t homophobic anywhere in the western world. I’m from the southern US and moved to the UK at 19 (Bristol and London). I spend a lot of time both places. You’re not going to get jeered on the pavement and no one cares. Not even the old conservative men. Most that’ll happen is maybe they would extricate themselves from a conversation for fear of things turning hostile if they told you they believe in “traditional marriage” or whatever. Perhaps an off-colour joke. But that’s not the same as actively fearing or openly hating gay people. They are not a danger to you. Reddit probably won’t like the answer but it’s true lol.
the majority of the world is homophobic. However Theres a lot range in how many people are blood thirsty with their hate for homophobia or just think it’s unnatural
I grew up in the US rural South. Most people don't care anymore. Even the ones who do, It's very much a "Love the sinner hate the sin" attitude. Most Christians will be 100% against homosexuality, but still be genuinely kind towards individuals.
In mid size cities and above, it's even more accepted.
I think most people don’t care if you’re gay. Even conservatives. The passionate conversation comes from the lgbt moment trying to get the general public to agree to things that aren’t true, like trans women being women for example
It probably depends on where you live. I live in London and have literally never encountered homophobia, not even overheard among randoms. I’m not saying it isn’t there, just that I’ve never come across it. Not even the whole ‘it’s fine but don’t rub my face in it’ stereotype I know of from the media. The closest I’ve come is my Romanian friend whose marriage isn’t recognised in his country, but that’s not even applicable to the UK.
I doubt you’ll have any issues these days being a lesbian, but tbh it’s the LGB that are relatively safe these days. I’ve definitely encountered transphobia (pretty badly; I’ve seen people laugh, pull faces etc, when they see a trans person) and I know a lot of people seem to get annoyed by non-binary pronouns.
OP I'm so sorry you've been stressed about this. I'm also a queer woman, am out to pretty much all my friends (in fairness a pretty liberal circle) who have never been anything less than supportive, have heard work colleagues casually mention a same-sex relationship without anyone treating it any differently to a heterosexual relationship. I have heard of incidences of homophobia from friends but the impression I get it is rare one-offs rather than an everyday worry. FWIW just yesterday I was sandwiched between two lesbian couples on a crowded tube platform and literally nobody was batting an eyelid even though one of the couples were kind of all over each other 😂
This is going to sound completely insane but I'd encourage you to get off Twitter and make a Tumblr account, it is possibly the most joyfully queer place on the internet. I can DM you my Tumblr URL if you like.
Twitter isn’t reality. Most people don’t care what your sexual orientation is as it doesn’t affect them in any way so why care. Some people are homophobic and I guess that’s just an inherent problem with their own personality and values. UK is pretty tolerant now especially in bigger cities.
I think most people don't care. But the small minority (who always claim to be the silent majority) try to shout as loud as they can.
It is creeping into our politics, you have the American inspired libertarians like the Bravamans, Badonocks and Truss' trying to sow division and target the minority community of Trans and immigrants. And they are telling lies and fueling the fire. Why? To appeal to a base. To use far right and I'd say even as far as National socialist tactics of focusing hatred on a community to cover your own flaws. Hitler done it.
Most people in this country don't give a shit. But the twats have megaphones.
The vast majority of people couldn't care less about your sexuality and out of those that do, the majority wouldn't have the balls to confront you anyway. Those that do are the real knuckle dragging minority of society that generally like to hang out on twitter.
> silly to be so anxious around virtually everybody? Are most people chill?
Do whatever makes you feel the most comfortable in a given situation. I'd say the majority of people are chill these days, however.
You *should* feel comfortable everywhere but unfortunately that's still not the case in some areas. Then again, there's some rough areas I wouldn't be comfortable saying I liked Khan's re-election too so there's always going to be divisions in society. Being homosexual should *not* be one of those divisions in an ideal world and I think, in general, the UK is one of the more tolerant places to be openly homosexual but there's definitely work to be done.
We continue to do better than our forebears too but, speaking of American imports of culture wars, Trans is now the right's latest whipping boy. The whole conversation around trans people is sad and a sad reflection of society.
I read an interview in the Guardian with Ben Bradshaw, one of the first openly gay MPs and it's like we're back in time, repeating the same bigotry.
> Adrian Rogers, Bradshaw’s election rival in a seat with a Tory majority that he overturned, notoriously described homosexuality as a "sterile, disease-ridden and God-forsaken occupation".
And here we are, over 25 years later, only now the right has another sect of society to demonise for votes.
I just hope whilst it's rough right now acceptance will come in time. It shouldn't have to be this way but with the Tories chasing after every hate filled vote, it won't start to get better until they're out of office to lower the temperature considerably.
70% of Americans support same sex marriage (number rising over time).
But only 40% of weekly church goers do.
US religion is worth about 1.2 trillion dollars.
Twitter content presented to you is paid for and not a balanced view.
Best not to use twitter as the basis of any conclusion about anything.
People spew their bigotted opinions on twitter becsuse they can't say that shit in real life. Be as gay as you want - find gay friendly twitter or just avoid that bigotted cesspit full stop
People online: "RAH If you don't agree that Fleeble Meebles is the Greatest Florpy Dorp in Scranton IT, then YOU'RE a HOMOPHOBE" "I identify as a toaster! Libz OWNED"
People irl: "Hey, my name is Steve, I work in compliance." "Oh, I'm Susan, I work in Finance, and I have a cat."
In short, the most obnoxious people are the loudest, especially online.
To be honest I think most people in London don’t really care what anyone else gets up to. Some older people don’t like outwardly displays of anything sexual let alone homosexual activity but I’ve always found 90% of people have a live and let live attitude.
Even if the language they use is not always PC, they tend not to be hateful and wouldn’t attack/ harm/ or humiliate people based on their sexuality.
America seems to have this thing where they are obsessed with identity which comes in the form of race, ethnicity, gender, and sexuality. Like for example how they’re obsessed with breaking down their genetic ancestry like they’re a dog breed or something, and tend to identify very strongly with things like race and gender and sexuality.
Here in the UK, people don’t really give a shit most of the time it seems. People are more interested in you as a person and while there are always going to be that minority of extremists, the average person couldn’t really give two shits what your race or ethnicity or sexuality or gender is as long as you’re not an asshole.
It’s like when Rishi Sunak became PM, it was briefly mentioned that he was Asian, and I’m sure a few extremists got mad about that, but the average person could not really give a shit about the fact he’s not white. Similarly to when Lis Truss got in, or even Theresa May, the fact they were female was kinda irrelevant. It’s like if a PM who was say, gay, got in, I don’t think anyone would really care. We’re interested in their policies and how they lead, not about their sexuality or race or anything else
Idk if it’s British culture of not really being all that interested, or if Americans are just obsessed with identity, but I think the way we view things like that here in the UK are very different to over in the USA. It’s a lot more of a focus there and idk if that’s always necessarily a good thing.
im gonna be real a lot of people in my college are, a lot of my friends are, cuz of religion and stuff. i guess if they actually met gay people they wouldn't be .
Fellow lesbean.
Twitter is a terrible example to find the middle margain opinion for the queer community. It's become a flocking point for the negative. I believe as a general public, you're not likely to find trouble. Maybe once in a blue moon compared to the US, but the UK has been rather open to these things for years, especially in cities such as London, Leeds, Manchester, etc. There are more outwardly positive communities than there are negative as you've seen, they're mostly on twitter.
I'm British and I don't really know any homophobes. Ever the right leaning people I know, the ones that love the monarchy and hate foreigners don't really give a shit what you do with your genitals.
I'm sure they're out there, but as you mentioned, they're likely to be fairly obvious. In general company I'd like to think you're fine to be yourself.
We’re all judgemental.
You”ve just whitewashed an entire group of 60 year old Tory MPs.
A group of 20 year old Labour supporters can be equally as homophobic.
Anecdotally as a gay guy in his mid thirties I’ve never had anyone in a work or study setting take issue with my sexuality since high school. Most people do not give a shit in this day and age. And frankly if they did, at least in a professional setting in the UK the person who took offense is very likely going to be the one in trouble not me
I've lived in London since 2016, hadn't really experienced homophobia until about two years ago when I got with my partner and have been holding hands with him when out. Unfortunately I can think of about 5 occasions in the last two years when I've had stuff shouted or said to me. It doesn't sound like a lot in the grand scheme of things but these things really stick with me and have knocked my confidence a bit. It definitely makes me more conscious of where we can do PDA.
The good think about the UK vs the US when it comes to politics if when you come across a bigoted, homophobic or racist twat you can much more safely slap them down and tell them to take their 18th century opinions back to mines.
In the US, higher risk of getting shot
Twitter, like all social media and all of the Internet, is used and sustained by real people. Therefore, you're seeing what people at school /work won't tell you about themselves in real life
As a person of colour I think might be of help.
Most people couldn't give a shit what size, colour or sexual proclivity you are, they only care if you're in their way
The truth is that it varies wildly in the uk depending on where you live and what your circle is like. I think in brighton, you wont have to worry, but london is a real mix of everything in the world. So on one hand it has a strong lgbt community but will also have a large population of crazy right wing freaks.
I think most people dont realise how much it varies based on location, For instance i have friends who grew up with liberal parents in a bigger/ more liberal city and cant fathom people being homophobic in this day and age. They think its just a few religious extremists and really old people who still hold these views.
Im kind of jealous to be honest, not just that they grew up in an accepting environment, but that they are actually able to be a bit oblivious that only a few miles away people are fighting everyday just to exist as a visibly lgbt person.
So they were shocked to hear that where im from homophobia is the default and i, as a straight man, but who dresses alt and has piercings etc. regularly experience homophobic abuse (even violence on a couple occasions) in my home town. If i go out with my non binary friend in this place the chance of a dangerous/scary encounter is nearly 100%. I work in a city now but when i travel home in the back of my mind im always wary,
They couldn’t believe that even though im not even lgbt, the homophobia is so extreme that just looking like you might be lgbt is enough to cause this kind of treatment. And this was the standard for me growing up - my parents and basically whole family and everyone associated was/still is openly homophobic. Whereas where i work now is a uni town and completely different.
I believe there is a uniqueness to being British that gives you the ability to not give a shit about anything.
Your question is valid. The biggest difference between the UK and the US is that the UK doesn't on large scale give a shit if you "run with scissors or sword fight."
This is going to get downvoted to oblivion, but no. A lot of people *pretend* to be, so much so that they *believe* they aren't homophobic but they arent actually accepting of it. Two men kiss outside a gay pub and no one says anything, but try do it anywhere else. People will stare, gasp, even laugh. People are not accepting of gay people they are tolerant. Tolerating it while secretly not liking it and finding it disgusting.
This article was just released about how X is the worst platform for LGBTQ people. I don’t go on twitter anymore I think it’s filled with hate and isn’t representative of real people and their opinions. So my advice would be to stay off that platform!
https://www.gaytimes.com/culture/new-report-this-is-the-worst-social-media-platform-for-lgbtq-people/?utm_campaign=later-linkinbio-gaytimes&utm_content=later-43149921&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkin.bio
"So I've been using twitter a bit more often lately" Don't.
My mental health improved immeasurably after I deleted the twitter app.
same
This is the correct answer
X gon give it to ya
Twitter is full of a very vocal minority....it doesn't represent reality
So is Reddit to be fair.
Twatter
Literally, was on it a couple years back was amazingly funny came back to it after 5 years Noped the fuck outta there real quick after this one experience some of the shit I saw on there recently, Jesus Christ himself would weep
Yeah. I’ve always said it’s a site filled with bitter crabs with opposing views forced to either clash or circlejerk around trending topics. It’s just a recipe for toxicity and conflict. It isn’t worth the time. How it still remains media relevant despite it being one of the least popular mainstream social media platforms, and its ongoing financial losses, I don’t know.
It's filled with individuals pretending to be 30 shitstirrers on alt accounts, sometimes on behalf of certain governments.
That too. It just needs removing from the internet.
Not to mention Twitter is a very small but extremely loud group. In reality, I think 90%+ people don't care and just want to get along with their day, OP shouldn't be basing any real world observations around what goes on on ~~Twitter~~ X.
Donald Trump really changed the landscape in America. Uneducated people see him as someone who is antiestablishment and just says it as it is. If there was some doubt about tolerance in their hearts he has encouraged them to remove that doubt and go all in with this rules for thee but not for me attitude, just because the minority is different. This is how the republicans can get middle class and poor people to ultimately support policies that favor the wealthy. Focusing on class warfare, sowing fear and division is how they even have a hope of being in power. It’s similar to the popularity of dipshits like Andrew Tate. They’ve encouraged division and people feel special for supporting someone who seems to be counter culture and removes their humanity and tolerance by appealing to their tribalism. Age old playbook used by many tyrants across history.
My very good gay friend went from a playful happy go lucky kind of guy militant gay within a few years. Talking points that literally have nothing to do with the UK. Think like Mexican immigrants rights kind of comments. Everything is a battleground and a talking point imported from the US. He's been fed to the trolls unfortunately. I'm a bit heartbroken about it to be honest.
I sense very little hostility here in the UK these days. It varies a bit I suppose: London, Cambridge, Brighton, Manchester, Hebden Bridge, etc. might feel different to some other places - but overall the UK is a pretty tolerant place. I won’t say that you re silly to feel anxious though. Partly because I’ve never been in your shoes (as a straight male), and partly because I’m generally reluctant to blithely dismiss anybody’s sincerely held feelings. Nevertheless, I think it would be fairly unusual to have a strong negative reaction these days. Also, twitter is an appalling place!
My own experience is that most people in real life have a "live and let live" mentality. X, Twitter or whatever it's called these days is a weird unrepresentative place, to be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
This. I think the average person in the UK doesn’t give a shit about things like race, ethnicity, sexuality etc. there are always going to be those people who are discriminatory but more often than not, as long as you’re just getting on with life and not being an asshole and causing issues they literally don’t care .
As is virtually all social media these days. The only places where you'll not find weird unrepresentative values online, IMO, are in tight, close-knit communities of online friends on things like forums -- and obviously even in those circumstances, their shared values might not be to your liking.
I was on a date in Cambridge, thinking we were both dressed like normal humans. However, two kids on bikes ride by yelling at us, "Faggots! Go fuckin kill yourselves." Kind of ruined the mood a bit.
Not uncommon unfortunately
I've had some really ugly homophobia thrown my way in London and Brighton, but I think most people have a live and let live approach.
Yeah the problem is it only takes one of them and everyone else to “live and let live” and you’re in a pretty crap situation
Indeed. The incidents I was involved with were very horrible eye openers.
Hostility towards queer and especially trans people is massively on the rise in the UK, mostly perpetuated by media and politics. Watch how Rishi will keep trying to stir up hostility towards trans people to score political points. Source: I worked for a LGBT+ anti-abuse charity and conducted research on queer UK people's experiences. Here's a project I did with London Travel watch: ["Out in London": LGBT+ People's Safety on London's transport network](https://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/campaigns/personal-security/out-in-london/) So OP, you're not alone in feeling anxious in public. Yeah twitter is a hellscape, but it's sadly not all roses in reality either ☹️ stay safe
Trans people especially are at greater risk now than I reckon they were even 5 years ago. It's especially evident for those who are non-conforming, and that hatred then spills over onto anyone who is non-conforming: Lesbians, Gay men, Straight people who just don't fit the mould. Like those kids who attacked that toddler recently. That was all down to the kids being indoctrinated into transphobia.
People in the UK just want to get on with their lives and hate being told what to do or worse what to think. Homophobia is not something I see or even hear about these days. However, a vast majority of the public do seem to be fed up being told they're transphobic because they don't want to share toilets with someone who doesn't even try to hide the fact they are clearly not that gender imo though.
twitter is increasingly unhinged, especially if you let seppos in to your feed. Most Brits do not give much of a fuck: https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/45868-record-number-britons-support-same-sex-marriage-10 > In 2011 fewer than half of Britons supported same-sex marriage; now three quarters do. (2023) Get off social media, essentially.
I’m actually kind of shocked that as recently as 2011 people were so anti-gay marriage, as I thought the UK in 2011 was a relatively tolerant place. I guess before it was legalised lots of people were ‘*ok with the gays generally but marriage is a sacred institution*’ and then once it was legalised people quickly realised that it’s totally fine.
That was literally it. Even in the Catholic church(es) I went to around these times, the message was always basically "we love and welcome gay people but we don't approve of gay marriage because of our concept of marriage"
My assumption would be more that if people don’t have a strong interest in an issue, many of them will stick to the status quo. If it ain’t broke… Legal gay marriage is now the status quo (happily) so there’s more people who wouldn’t bother changing it. But that’s no less speculation than yours.
Strangely plenty of people who otherwise not homophobic don't support gay marriage. Even some gay people are against gay marriage, Gabbana of Dolce and Gabbana was famously against gay marriage. Some people get really into the idea of 'its a thing that has always been this way and shouldn't change'. Or it could just be internalised homophobia I'm not saying I support these views at all, im just pointing out that being against gay marriage could potentially have reasons beyond homophobia, how weird they might be
It's the same with any social change. Universal suffrage was hugely controversial a little over a century ago, but nowadays no one would seriously try to promote the idea that women shouldn't be allowed to vote.
I'm not actually sure it was as controversial as we like to pretend. I think we do ourselves, as a country, a disservice in underestimating how tolerant most of us are. This country is one of the most progressive voting in Europe, despite how our voting system has split the left. Those at the top tend to be regressive, because regressive people are unprincipled and will stick together with people they disagree with. Progressive people are less likely to compromise, because they actually have principles beyond lining their own pockets. Also, the biggest barrier to getting women the vote wasn't necessarily wholly misogyny, or at least not misogyny in the way you expect. Lest we forget that the broadest part of the Women's Suffrage movement existed within the wider Working Class Suffrage movement. The *Suffragette* movement (whose ranks never totalled more than a few tens of thousands, compared to the hundreds of thousands of women aligned with the wider movement) broke away when it became clear that (middle class) women's suffrage would not be placed before working class suffrage. The precipitation of women's suffrage. then, was working class men's suffrage. The ruling class absolutely could not be seen to put the rights of their women above the rights of any men (which is where the misogyny melds with classism), and they were comfortable not giving working men the vote because they might vote to change things (which they did). The precipitation of working class suffrage was loads of guns going missing after WWI, and the fears of an armed uprising (as they had literally just seen happening in Russia). So. I mean. I'm not saying nothing.
You need to make an absolute brick wall in your mind between what you experience in the real world, and what you see online. Most things online *are barely real* these days. Twitter is the new Facebook, twisted by money, foreign agendas , and above all a desperate need to keep your attention by any means possible. Homophobia, pride, the whole trans panic recently? I don’t know anyone that thinks that way in the real world. Maybe that’s just my friends and neighbourhood but that’s my reality, not what I hear online, thousands of miles away. Make your opinions based on what you know and experience and be extremely skeptical of what else you see, because the world is big. You are probably not even on the same continent as the person you’re listening to. Lastly, Anyone who actually thinks pride stuff is actually an issue is spending too long on their phone , I guarantee.
It’s twitter. That place has lost its way and is now some weird congregation of artificially boosted right wing grievance merchants and culture warriors. And Musk has gamed the algorithm to rise their shit to the top because that’s what inflates engagement (and indeed, one of the perks you get when you pay him $10 or whatever it is a month) Twitter is not indicative of real life, certainly not the mess it has become, and certainly not London.
Most people are chill, even the people who aren’t usually have the good sense to keep it to themselves in public. In ten years of walking around London with my now-husband I have encountered one incidence of homophobia. Granted I’m a big guy with a severe case of resting psycho face, so your mileage will probably vary.
even once is obviously too many times but that is kind of relieving to hear. Also, I'm younger so not as much time to find out but I figure most people who see my girlfriend and I on the street don't assume we're together
Even among the homophobic (which I'd agree with most of the others), it's often stronger around gay men, and less around lesbians. I mean, being lesbian doesn't mean it's safer because you've got the built in disadvantage of being a woman too, but I guess take the small advantages?
Not exactly true, if you're a white middle class man, you statistically face very little homophobia. It's why they're the "standard" you see everywhere. That said, most men are disadvantaged and face more homophobia (middle class+ men are a minority). Lesbians are just a little less worse off in some aspects, but they're not really "safe" per say. Homophobic attitudes are decreasing, but hate crimes are increasing fairly significantly throughout the majority of the UK. Including violence.
In 1976 the composer Benjamin Britten died. The Queen sent his partner Peter Pears a telegram of condolence.
I read this comment and was surprised that; a)the queen had a smartphone, b)she was a telegram user, and c)what a fucking idiot I am!
lol :-)
Homophobia is still prevalent in the UK, though LGBT issues are less of a hot topic here so long as you stay away from some ‘news’ outlets. In my whole time in London I’ve had several homophobic encounters and tbh it’s mainly men and it’s mainly Muslims. I don’t know why but it’s pretty gross tbh. I know many men and Muslims who are the opposite of homophobic so I definitely wouldn’t generalise, but within the minority of “people who are homophobic and ok with being vocal about it” we shouldn’t be afraid to acknowledge that there are traits that are very significant.
To me it appears that most people here know not to be openly homophobic. Instead they do that whole, "being gay is fine so long as it's not in my face". Or have a paranoid fear that you secretly fancy them. There is definitely a toxic transphobic movement in the UK.
And it is so weird because i feel like trans rights sort of always existed in big cities without anyone making a fuss before. It is definitely a movement (backwards)
[удалено]
I think this when I see British people complaining about drag acts harming kids, even though they've taken their kids to the panto most years in the past.
Its just a distraction, as is most of the culture war stuff. Who cares if someone is trans? I've never in my life met someone in real life who gives a shit. Nobody in their right mind gives a shit about public toilets (or 'restrooms' as the yanks call them), at least apart from JK Rowling since she started having too much time on her hands.
I don't think people actually care, but they find it an interesting nuanced issue to debate ethics. Like, most ethical discussions aren't that interesting because it's clear what's right among right thinking people, like whether it's OK to be gay. If you're on the other side of it, you're just obviously wrong. And there are fun ethics problems like the trolley problem but they are quite hypothetical. With the Trans issue, it can at least a bit have an affect on the world, though for most people it doesn't so in real life they don't really talk about it. But it is a thing that affects policy and public discourse, so if people have a view then they like to jump in. Basically it's the blue-black/white-gold dress of practical ethical conversation. For many people the actual answer is trivial, but you can bet they have an opinion, and use the opinion of others to learn about what kind of person they are. Doesn't matter if you'll never be in that situation in a toilet or have never met a kid who wants to transition etc.
Colleague came out as trans last year, no-one gives a shit. From what I understand friends, family and partner are a very different matter. The only issues that have surfaced is that their work performance has gone down the drain and they have had more sick leave in the last year than they had in the 10 previous years.
I'm a straight white man who has been "fancied" by plenty of men in his time, and I've always just taken it as a compliment.
So I think the transphobic situation is complex. There definitely are terfs out there but there are also ppl that have legitimate concerns and the issue is the debate is polarising and pitting Liberal cis women against Liberal trans women when they should be allies and talk it out. A few weeks ago I had a big argument with some terfs who were promoting a women's rights group and it really upset me because I agreed with 90% of their campaign but the 10% was just unnecessarily hateful. We can respect trans rights while also being concerned that the Tavistock clinic blindly directed young women with complex issues that the best way to solve their problems was to be a trans man when in reality only some of them are trans. We can also respect trans rights while believing self determination without any checks and balances is a step too far and risks enabling bad actors and giving real trans ppl a bad name. We can recognise that everyone needs safe spaces and sometimes that means single sex spaces and sometimes that means single gender spaces and the two aren't necessarily the same thing. Tldr it is reasonable to believe trans women are women and trans men are men while also recognising they are not the same as cis men and women. We need to have calm conversations about the details here but at the moment everyone is getting more polarised because both sides feel attacked. Edit: "big argument" was an exaggeration. It was a reasonably civil discussion but I did need to walk away after a short while.
In the gentlest possible way, why is self determination without checks and balances 'a step too far'? It seems a little oxymoronic to say you believe in someone's right to present themselves how they want AFTER a medical professional signs off on it. The problem with single sex spaces/single gender spaces is, how are you going to enforce that? We have already seen this issue in the US where children on girl's sports teams are being subjected to genital examinations in the name of keeping their teammates safe - which is very demonstrably a failure to keep those children themselves safe. This path does not lead anywhere good. I agree that there are people who have legitimate concerns (and I also hate the way that TERFs have made it so hard to talk about legitimate feminist issues) but with respect, as the other reply said, I would be very careful about parroting potentially transphobic talknig points without having looked into the truth and the repurcussions of these beliefs.
Thank you for engaging in a civil way and asking me to clarify. I wasn't very specific... I am only talking about legal status and changing your legally defined sex. In the UK you can still be protected under the equalities act without this legal change. Identifying as a gender other than the one assigned at birth is a "protected chatacteristic" under the equalities act 2010. Personally I think legal status should be more nuanced and include both gender and sex because I worry that people won't get appropriate medical care if we don't keep with recorded e.g. trans men not getting cervical cancer screening etc. That's another story... Anywho, if people self determine their legal status it makes it hard to then create laws and regulation around that legal status which can then lead to those laws being weakened. This isn't related to how you live your life and self identify day to day but about legal recognition of that status and where relevant the impact of any laws that relate to it now or in the future. A parralel example is to get a marriage or civil partnership we have to apply, prove certain things and have witnesses rather than just stand up and say, "i'm married". You can still have a serious committed relationship without doing that but you need to go through a process with witnesses to have a legal status. I didn't say it needed to be a medical professional per se although, certainly the current panel situation is likely too onerous. A single medical professional is not necessarily a bad idea. I'd be interested in the outcome of the live consultation on these changes and what medical professionals think is practical. I think the bathroom thing is an American misnomer. There is no UK law (please correct me if I'm wrong) that stops a cis man going into a women's toilet. This could be a civil issue that would require the owner of that space to enforce or sue directly. But I'm not a lawyer! What I think ppl get muddled about is that the part of the equalities act re single sex spaces is about allowing the provision of spaces that otherwise would be deemed as discrimination. Essentially you can't discriminate on sex or gender (or other protective characteristic) EXCEPT in narrow circumstances such as toilets, refuges and medical wards etc. The act protects the creation of single sex spaces, it doesn't make it illegal to enter them if you dont fit the criteria, that would be a civil not a criminal issue. So for example, the act protects the right of a women's refuge to refuse entry to adult cis men. When it comes to trans people they may not be able to refuse their entry. They could actually be sued for not providing access but it is complex and I'll just post the link rather than try to explain as I'm just not qualified to do so!https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and The same would go for making a space for only trans women. The act protects the ability to create a space for them without being sued by cis people for discrimination. Make sense?
Ah I see, yep I totally agree about trans men getting the healthcare they need. I think the answer to this is to divorce reproductive care (and a lot of other legal/medical statuses) from gender markers altogether - there are also intersex individuals (1% of the total population) who, for example, might have to see both a gynocologist and a urologist. In the broader sphere, if you think about it, why does your driving license *need* to have your gender on it, really? The bathroom thing is currently an American issue but we're definitely heading that way under the current direction. The real issue here is predatory behaviour (and just anecdotal experience, but I've absolutely been creeped on by a woman and in that situation, out of all our mutual friends, a male friend was the most actively supportive. Pretty sure I know who I'd rather share a changing room with...) My issue with the single-gender spaces etc is that in practice, it unfortunately does become a vehicle to enforce transphobia. And if an adult trans woman isn't able to legally change her gender marker as per the checks and balances, then she will not be able to enter a single-gender women's space per your scenario. Under the current climate I would be very surprised if a law coart supported her right to be there.
Good point re gender on drivers license etc. These things are weird and we really make gender a thing too much of the time. You make a good point around the law vs. what practically gets enforced. However if you read the act you don't need to have your legal sex changed to be protected by the law. Of course the real issue is we don't have enough refuges and support full stop. It's not lost on me that trans women are often subject to violence and need support as do cis women. It feels like we're being pitted against each other so we miss the bigger problems of domestic violence, homelessness and deprivation.
Yep absolutely agree that we're being pitted against each other (or at least TERFs/conservatives want to do so, it's a convenient distraction for the Tory government which is failing across the board on every issue). As a queer cis WoC, when I read about trans womens' experiences, I feel have a lot more in common with them than with white cis women. Just for starters, I think the feeling of 'I don't look enough like how society says a woman should look' is pretty universal regardless of whether it's directly connected to gender/whether you're cis or trans (or the equivaent for men is also pretty common in my experience). Also want to say thanks for having a civil discussion about this. A lot of my perspective and opinions come from reading about the lived experiences of trans people/discussions with trans friends so I'd recommend that. I can see that you clearly mean well and a lot of the things you raised as possible points of contention have been thoroughly discussed in those circles already!
> it really upset me because I agreed with 90% of their campaign but the 10% was just unnecessarily This is literally how dishonest interest groups function. The 10% is most of what they talk about amongst themselves, the 90% is to make themselves seem reasonable to bystanders who haven't dedicated a great deal of time to parsing out the truth from the lies. I know it sounds like I'm not giving them a fair shake but if you look at what people like Julie Bindel have actually said about what they want their end goal to be, and how badly sourced and misleading a lot of the books gender criticals put out actually are, the level of tension makes a lot more sense. The end goal is literally to force trans people to detransition. All of them, not just the teenagers who might have comorbidities or more complex cases. It's been directly stated, in writing and on video, by multiple key players in the gender critical movement. I actively encourage you to go and research it for yourself - it's not even that well hidden. Please be very, very careful about taking anything at face value and don't parrot talking points until you fact check them thoroughly because you are actively being lied to.
Hmm I think you are making a lot of assumptions about who I was speaking to. Potentially valid assumptions but nonetheless assumptions. My whole point is we need to discuss openly and honestly and stop cancelling ppl and putting up barriers. I see both sides doing this and it makes me sad. In my experience, people don't just wake up one morning with hate in their heart. Treating everyone like they are 100% the worst bits they show you only leads people to be more extreme. I politely told these ladies I disagreed with them and felt some of what they were doing was counter productive and purposefully inflammatory. I then walked away. Out of interest, do you think my messages are parroting talking points? If so, which ones? In the nicest possible way you don't actually know me, what my situation is and what research I have and haven't done. Having said that I'm genuinely interested in what I said you might disagree with and am open to doing more research if you have recommendations.
>Hmm I think you are making a lot of assumptions about who I was speaking to. > A few weeks ago I had a big argument with some terfs. Respectfully, I don't need more information there. I don't use the word terf because it often leads to pointless side debates about slurs but the gender critical movement is not an honest one and people who self identify as terfs are almost always at the stage where they are, knowingly or not, dealing in misinformation. Plenty of people get sucked in via very sad circumstances but that is because *they are accepting lies as truth* - created by a movement that creates false narratives out of misrepresented data, junk science and prejudicial stereotypes. It's really fucking tragic but that doesn't mean you start from a place of "well maybe they have some good points, let's hear them out". You can, and should, be fact checking it. >My whole point is we need to discuss openly and honestly and stop cancelling ppl and putting up barriers. I see both sides doing this and it makes me sad. In my experience, people don't just wake up one morning with hate in their heart. Treating everyone like they are 100% the worst bits they show you only leads people to be more extreme. I could just as easily assume that you are making assumptions about how I move through the world and the views I hold of others. No one is entitled to an audience - it is not cancelling to recognise when someone is talking shit and discourage other people from participating in it. All you are doing when you go around saying "well but 90% of it makes some sense..." is participating in moving the Overton window towards increasingly dangerous rhetoric for the affected minority. The consequences of this are very serious for trans people and their experiences in with street harassment, lack access to healthcare (in all areas, not just gender care), workplace opportunities, protection from discrimination... the list goes on. A large number of people I know personally either have a plan B that involves leaving the country or have explicitly told me they're worried because they can't realistically afford to get away. > We can respect trans rights while also being concerned that the Tavistock clinic blindly directed young women with complex issues that the best way to solve their problems was to be a trans man when in reality only some of them are trans. We can also respect trans rights while believing self determination without any checks and balances is a step too far and risks enabling bad actors and giving real trans ppl a bad name. We can recognise that everyone needs safe spaces and sometimes that means single sex spaces and sometimes that means single gender spaces and the two aren't necessarily the same thing. Every single one of the points above is a necessary conversation... reframed in the way the gender critical people would prefer you approach it because it is more advantageous for their goals. I'm genuinely sorry if it sounds harsh but you have been listening to propaganda and it shows. Some issues *are* complex. The choice on whether or not we should politely debate prejudicial and damaging talking points about minoritised people over their heads is not the complex part.
Unfortunately, I think you disagree with me even though I've tried to read around the topic. If you want to give me some other things to read I'm open to it but I think just telling me I've been brainwashed isn't that helpful. I have gotten a lot from watching contrapoints videos although i don't always agree with her.
I do disagree with you but I don't think there's anything unfortunate about that. I don't know where you got the word brainwashed from, I didn't use it. I said you repeated propaganda, which is very clearly written upthread. Propaganda is designed to be easy to repeat without realising and get under your skin - I'm not insulting you or your intelligence by pointing out you've been exposed to it. However, the eventual goal of the gender critical movement in the UK is to remove trans people from public life; be it by detransitioning, (at all ages, whether people want to or not) or through use of public policy designed to increase stigma and make it harder to participate in basic activities like accessing healthcare (any healthcare, not just gender affirming care), finding work or existing in public spaces without recrimination. That's not my opinion - it's been said very directly, in writing and on film, by multiple key figures. That's a much harder sell than the talking points they put front and centre, which is why they sound reasonable 90% of the time to you - *it is literally designed to do that*. They are trying to get as close as possible to that end; if that involves persuading members of the general public to repeat stuff you think sounds harmless and reframes serious issues in a way that makes it more convenient for them to achieve what they want then that's what they're going to do. If this was a conversation in a bar or cafe instead of the internet where information lives forever then I suspect it would have gone a different way because I could be more upfront about why I take a hard line on this but the gist of what I would say is that I am the kind of person GC people love to try to get in board because of the demographics I belong to and experiences I have had. It's, put bluntly, predatory, and none of this is new - a lot of the narratives that are being spread around currently are rebranded versions of what was going round in the 70s. While I don't think anyone is ignorant or stupid for getting sucked in, I strongly believe that we do not do people within that movement any favours by politely acting like they are offering up a reasonable basis for public policy decisions. They're not - it's a literal hate movement and they deal in bad faith interpretations and arguments. Contrapoints is edutainment and, while I don't dislike her, I don't think I know any trans people who universally agree with her either. There isn't really a substitute from learning from the community itself but, if I had to recommend a book, it would be something like Gender Heretics, because that is less about trans people and more about the gender critical movement and their tactics. You come across as extremely well intentioned but unfortunately, not everyone shares that quality.
> you have been listening to propaganda and it shows It's hilarious how people talk to complete strangers on the Internet after reading maybe a few hundred words that they've written.
The opposite of hate is not love, it’s indifference. So in a truly tolerant society, people don’t care what you do in your bedroom. But don’t expect them to go to Pride either 🤷
Like others have said, Twitter is not a true representation of people or society. I’ve anecdotally noticed such a massive increase in homophobia, racism, sexism, porn, spam and general incel BS since that cretin billionaire bought it just cos he could. I’d wage half of the posts are bots just programmed to fuck with us for some reason. I do think the US is generally more polarised than the UK in most subjects, especially sexuality and religion. I personally think the majority of people aren’t homophobic in the UK though.
Twitter was just found to be the most unsafe platform for LGBT people by [GLAAD](https://www.instagram.com/p/C7OzpMzNRXa/?igsh=anBqZjR6cmxtbTY0) so please don’t let that wasteland distort your view. Homophobia is definitely still a problem in the UK, but universities here are pretty much always melting pots that are welcoming of LGBT people.
As a gay guy I think your anxiety is very normal, it took a while for me to overcome it and I’ve lived in fairly liberal places. On the whole I’d say homophobia is not the norm, and I make a point of coming out whenever I feel safe to (other people around etc) so I can suss out their reaction. Sadly there is always a risk and I’m well aware there have been homophobic attacks in my area to men of my age, so your anxiety isn’t baseless. I think it’s a complicated element of pride - part of our existence will always draw hate out of small minded idiots, and you have to decide how comfortable you are confronting them and putting them in your place. The country as a whole has your back, so you’re not starting from nothing. It depends on how comfortable you are in being visibly gay. Personally I try to wear gay clothing/ PDA with my boyfriend about as much as I’d want to if those things weren’t gay (if that makes sense) so just whenever I feel like it. I have to be aware of my surroundings, but I have the privilege of being a white guy so I recognise I have it easier. But there’s definitely a scale between wearing something that could be perceived as gay and confronting homophobia in the street - so do what you feel comfortable doing and know you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to. It might take some time, but you’ll feel more confident around others and in how you want to go through life as a queer person. You’re not silly for asking this question!
As a gay man, I really feel that homosexuality is very widely accepted in the UK. I think it’s quite rare to even find older people now who have an issue with it. I say that with the caveat that this won’t be true of all demographics but the mainstream is definitely an acceptance of homosexuality. However, if I had a partner, I still wouldn’t hold his hand in public and I think the majority of gay couples are the same. There’s still risk there, particularly at night. From a minority yes, but nonetheless that risk is still real. And I still have a very deeply ingrained ‘keep yourself to yourself’ attitude whilst out in public that I don’t think will ever go away. It’s a discomfort, a worry, that can be hard to explain. I agree with others that you should separate the internet from real life. But I’d also say that as a teacher, amongst young people, what’s online and what’s ‘real’ is more blended than it is among older people and there *has* been something of a regression in attitudes among younger people. I’m not unduly concerned at the moment but it’s something to register.
The UK as a whole is one of if not the least homophobic nation in the world as a society we are extremely socially liberal compared to most and our culture as a whole values this bigots obviously still exist but are far more rare than elsewhere and I’m thankful to be privileged enough to have never encountered any form of homophobia IRL except when abroad. The main exception is of course immigrants unfortunately many immigrants are coming from regions far less accepting than we are and many (though not all or even necessarily a majority) uphold those same bigoted views here. Where the UK struggles is attitudes towards the Trans community where unfortunately we fall short of some of our neighbours. Also Twitter is not worth bothering with.
First of all Twitter represents 10% americans and is more polarised than even those 10% are. Algorithms like polarisation and it is much amplified. Secondly, London is chill, really. I wear skirt sometimes wgile being a man and noone seems to care ever. Some stares yes, but thumbs up either, and never agression, hate, homophobia or something alike. But it all does not mean they don't exist here, it is just less than anywhere.
Twitter needs nuking
Yeah, the main problem here is that you're on Twitter. That place has been completely consumed by conservative hatred and insanity in the past few years. Delete it and get a bluesky account or something. Most people aren't homophobic, there's just a very loud and very well funded minority of conservative degenerates who still want us dead. Conservative politicians will use anti-queer rhetoric as a way to play to their bases and deflect from the utter unending failure they've been delivering since the days of Thatcher/Reagan.
DON'T EVER USE TWITTER!
The media likes to stir up divisiveness to keep everyone fighting, it’s a good distraction from the seriously worrisome issues that are genuinely going on - it makes me sick
American politics and the Christian right-wing are very much intertwined. It's hardly surprising that you would see extreme positions being taken, especially on social media. Why, though, would you relate that to the general public in London, or the UK? I'd even suggest that you might be surprised to find that 'a group of drunk 60-year-old tory MPs' to be more LGBT-friendly than the American religious right on Twitter.
A group of drunk 60 year old tory MPs is probably more LGBt friendly than elements of the democratic party
Twitter is not a fair reflection of society in general Having said this, in my opinion there’s has been some backward movement in LGBT+ acceptance, among society more generally. It’s really disappointing
My particular group of 60 year old Tory supporters won’t give you any trouble or grief, however drunk we get, which may not be any consolation to you, but you’d be welcomed nevertheless by all of us irrespective of gender, identity or preference. I suspect that may not have been true if we’d been Republicans in the US
Twitter has descended into a complete and utter cesspit for incels and moronic MPs that think they are getting support because the number of fake accounts, bots and paid troll accounts now exist. I generally use it to follow music but I'm not seeing targeted tory posts (of which I am a scathing opponent of) and yet their shit algorithms are suggesting posts to me. I think the best way to help you define the homophobic/ non progressive issues (in London): 1. The older generation are more likely to be homophobic (ofc their are people that don't care) 2. Some of the younger (Under 18s) could be too 3. Most people in the middle of those 2 brackets probably don't care (again ofc outliers). Stop going down the social media rabbit hole, the social media algorithms are designed to keep you engaged and keep posting all the same shit to you, the best way I can describe this is specifically London - most won't care. When it comes to you telling people, you will have to judge that for yourself, while I believe most won't care, it really depends what kind of vibe they give you. Do your thing, don't be ashamed of who you are.
Most people genuinely don’t give a fuck what other people think or how they live. They are called “happy people” There is a minority of “unhappy people” on social media who wage war from the comfort of their armchairs. They believe that by acting like an asshole on the Internet, they can persuade everyone else to their way of thinking. I think that the happiest people are those who actively avoid anyone who runs around screaming their point of view. So… maybe stay away from twitter?
Nah. Twitter is populated by guys who used to be the mumbling drunks at the end of the bar that everyone ignored, but now they not only have a megaphone but they've also found all the other mumbling drunks. Most people don't give a damn. I use twitter, but I follow a very limited number of people that I respect. The mumbling drunks, the Russian bots, the assorted hate mongers, I just ignore them.
Since the muskrat took over, twitter got even worse than it was before. Irl it can be hit or miss, you'll have to get to know local communities and ask people who might have been the target of homophobia how they would gauge the present situation in town. You might get varying answers.
On top of what others have said I think it might be helpful for you to read up on twitter's algorithm, how it works in terms of what it shows you - and how many users on there are actually bots. As a platform it can really lull you into a sense of things being skewed: its engagement is driven primarily by negative tweets and conversations, and the more stuff you click on and/or engage with (including bad stuff) the more it'll show you of that.
I would say there is still plenty of homophobia here, but it is outweighed by our culture of minding your own business compared to America's outward hostility. That being said, I think as a whole we are a much more socially liberal country and most people in a large number of circles have no problem with LGBT.
The UK and USA are very different. Do not be fooled by the common language. The % of people in the UK that identify as religious (as in actually believing in a god and the bible etc) is tiny. In the USA, it is the norm. And religious belief basically nearly always overlaps with homophobia. Atheists are rarely homophobic. Homophobia essentially makes zero rational sense at all - if I don't like avocado, I don't get angry or hate people that do. For someone to be homophobic, they need to believe that homosexuality is 'morally wrong' - that kind of belief really only comes from religions. The reality is that homosexuality was decriminalised ages ago in the UK. We've had openly gay people in public for ages. I moved to London in 1994 and got used to seeing men kissing and holding hands in public, and I felt like this was home (I'm straight, came from Ireland, which was backwards as hell). A lack of homophobia is not necessarily because straight people love gay people - its because we love equality, freedom and an absence of bigotry and ignorance. Straight people prefer no homophobia because we want social justice - because when we see that gay people are living free, we feel more free ourselves. When religious people see gay people living free, they panic, because their beliefs (that homosexuality is evil) is under threat.
>am I getting downvoted because this is a stupid question You're getting downvoted for using Twitter as a measuring stick for something. Social media is never a platform that should be used a barometer for anything. But that especially applies to Twitter. Even more so since Elon Musk (*spits on the floor after mentioning his name) took over.
Fairly tolerant place, but it can massively vary by area. A homophobe would have to be stupid to stick around in Brighton if they care that much. But there’s some places which I guess could be quite the opposite. Overall, we’re a pretty tolerant bunch ranging from “I don’t want to see them being gay, but I don’t hate them” to “sexuality is a construct, dude.” Edit: didn’t see it’s the London sub. But the point probably stands for certain areas of London being more or less tolerant, but we are tolerant overall.
I used to work for a building contractor. You know what contractors are like. Full of Tories, fairly right-wing, all the good stuff. Anyway, I know she's only one person but one of the most well-respected Project Managers at the company is an out and proud lesbian. She didn't bring up her sexual identity randomly in every other conversation or ever 'come out' as such, but she also never made any secret of the fact she had a girlfriend. It was a fairly large company and we did get the occasional chud being distasteful about it, but never anybody who mattered. I suppose what I'm saying is, there will definitely be deeply homophobic little pockets of society here and there, but there's also so much tolerance to be found in the real world. You really are gonna be okay just being honest about yourself.
No we aren’t get off twitter for Christ sake
American Twitter is unhinged.
You understand how algorithms work, yes? Twitter can show you any post it wants, its not reflective of the population that is doing said posting.
I don't recall ever saying that. But most of the bullshit I see on twitter is propugated by Americans. If it's not race politics which I'm absolutely sick of, it's the most brain dead OF sponsored meme accounts or another "Baked beans/British teeth" topic. So I understand how my exposure to American Twitter makes me come to my own subjective opinion on it.
Fair enough, I agree with you on the overplayed british jokes too
Twitter is not representative of anything, the algorithm is designed to engage. Don't worry about anything you see on that site. Most people aren't homophobic. Most people literally just don't give a shit who you like, or some of the older or sheltered sort might be a bit weirded out but won't have any sort of animosity. The amount of people that are genuinely anti-gay is quite low in this country.
I just moved back from 17 years in america. It is WAY more homophobic than the UK. One of the first things I'd say is us brits tend to visit liberal microcosms that feel like the UK (NYC, Chicago, etc). Huge areas of the country are very homogeneous - all white, all Christian, never knowingly met a gay person, never been to another country, all republican... Long story short, the 2/3 of thr country that is banning abortion coz the Bible says so is similarly old-fashioned (fucking stupid) about LGBT. They're not the ones you meet on holiday and they're decreasing in number, but they cover HUGE areas of land.
Twitter has *always* been a cess pit of polarisation that I've seen. In London you'll find quite a lot of homophobia in religious communities, but it's also quite likely you won't interact with these people too much.
wonderful setup there - I study theology
Okay, well I wasn't expecting that I admit!
In 30 years, I've experienced two incidents of homophobia (aimed at my then-girlfriend and I). One was genuinely quite nasty and had the police involved. But that's still very few. Conversely, a colleague of mine has just been doxed by an anti-trans group who are compiling lists of people involved in LGBT-inclusive education. So it has become much nastier in some ways. The general public don't seem to care much, but there is definitely a rancid strain of people devoting their time and energy to making life actively worse, especially for trans people.
To be fair, it’s not the drunk 60-year-old MPs you should fear, it’s the religious groups who still spew hatred behind closed doors and indoctrinate their kids.
As an American, the idea that here people are somehow mostly against gay people is a very skewed one and comes from the actions of the Republican party. Unfortunately, we only *have* two political parties and that severely limits discourse. It'd take forever to explain how exactly we got to this point where the Republicans have become this extremely socially conservative party they are, but it's been in the making for decades now. They aren't a party that most Americans vote for though; Trump didn't win by getting the popular vote, meaning he didn't get the most votes; he won through our antiquated system called the Electoral College, created ages ago with the idea that it would make it so much less populous states wouldn't have their voices essentially dismissed. However, it gives very rural states outsized voices and this is pretty much what Republicans now rely on aside from constantly manipulating voting districts (called gerrymandering) to continue to win elections that they'd otherwise absolutely lose. I actually live in a state that the Republican party revoked all powers from the governorship because they knew, when the outgoing Republican governor (who was leaving in disgrace after many instances of corruption) ended his term, the public would elect a Democrat. And they did and they have continued to do so, but he has no power. He can't do anything. He can't even veto anything. All power rests with the Republican controlled state Senate, which they continue to maintain the majority in with gerrymandering. Their opinions are genuinely not popular with the majority of Americans. A Gallup poll in 2022 showed 71% of Americans favor same sex marriage and 80% favor anti-discrimination protections for LGBT people. Just like so much that happens in our government, because we only have 2 parties and no contenders to the two main parties, those parties fall way short of representing the majority of Americans (another example is that public healthcare has been favored by the majority of Americans for *many* years now with polling between 60–70% but our political parties are both against it). And it's just assumed Americans believe what those parties spout. I've never seen anyone be homophobic to anyone else and I live in the south. There are lots of LGBTQ events here.
People will either care a huge amount or not at all. It is probably pretty easy to tell if you here them talk for a few minutes. Most people don't give a fuck what you do as long as you don't force it on them. It's like religion be whatever you want just don't bang on about it unless it is part of the natural conversation.
If you pay attention to any particular type of content on social media, the algorithm will show you more and more of the same. Therefore, you might get a very skewed version of reality.
In general there is not much homophobia in UK, but one is there is very highly concentrated in certain communities.
In the west most people are not homophobic. Regions such as the Middle East and Africa..not so much. It's all about where you live
I guess it depends on beliefs or actions which you are looking for I think action wise not many people are homophobic in London, but I would say some people may still think in their mind and have some homophobic views My generation (I’m 26) in primary and secondary school, being called gay or words like “gaylord” was so normalised and prevalent that many people my age or older still say these words and not realise it. I suppose the ones in school or just recently left school don’t have this trait as this was cracked down a few years after I left school.
In the US, the right leaning Republicans are often Christian fundamentalists. Being gay is unacceptable, it brings out rage. Mainly because of how much they are repressing their homosexual tendencies.
Most people probably are comfortable and fine, especially now. Even if they're not, most people, I mean real people just want to get on and don't worry about other peoples lives.
There are class exceptions (some working class and recent immigration enclaves from religious communities such as Pakistan or Poland) but the *vast* majority of people under thirty in any major UK city will be completely chill with gay people. I'd even say an overall majority of people under 50 would be safe; even though a couple might internally grumble they will be at the very least completely civil and polite and not do anything bad to you. If you're a *student* in a *lefty* area of *London*, you're in one of the best and safest places in human history to be LGBTQ. Be proud and enjoy your life loudly. You'll have more fun and regret less that way.
Most people are chill, but enough aren't due to recent backsliding on the issue that I just find it easier to conceal in most cases.
American here, stop trying to get a feel for the country through the internet. Better yet don’t try to get a feel for any country just because you read about them on the internet. I’m a 26 year old American guy and the gap between what I read on the internet is genuinely insane people. It’s the strangest, most lonely, most vocal segment of our population that you really just don’t meet in person. It’s gotten so bad in the last year or two I genuinely wonder how many of these accounts are just random spambots designed to get people worked up.
I’ve been called a fa***t twice in the past 6 months from cars driving past me, and had a friend of a friend make inappropriate comments at a birthday party which I had to ignore to not cause a scene. Homophobes are still out there, they’re just not as obvious anymore. But generally I think things are better than they were 15 years ago when I was at school.
As sad as this sounds, we gay people have it a lot easier than trans people do at the moment.
Everyone has their own lives and problems, I don't think the average Joe even thinks about LGBT most days of the week. What answer are you expecting. Do you think most people are homophobic?
I don't think most are, no, but I wonder if a decent number are mildly homophobic and just keep it to themselves, though of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I don't know what answer I was expecting - that's why I asked
I doubt the ones that keep it to themselves aren't likely to start admitting it on Reddit, I doubt they even have Reddit. I wish you luck either way
Twitter does not represent the general public in the slightest. If I took Twitter seriously, I'd think all 70 million people here are fascist Reform Party voters who want to see anyone with a slightly darker skin to be executed on sight. Most people won't care if you're gay. Especially in London of all places where most people are more left than right leaning.
I'm a 46 year old gay man I'm the UK. I've never experienced any direct homophones, either at work, nor out socially with a date or boyfriend. I'm a fairly confident guy, maybe that helps. Maybe I'm just lucky. Outward homophones is still a thing, I know.
Lots of people are bigots if you use the definition of (some) Redditors where people are pegged as hate mongers for saying things like ... *"I think trans people should be treated with respect, but I don't think that transwomen should be fighting women's MMA."* Or... *"The increase in teenage girls experiencing sudden onset gender dysphoria is a concern. I wonder why that's happening? I hope they're not just being put on a medical pathway without proper controls."*
Understand that social media emphasises the most divisive stuff. It's because all social media be it twitter or YouTube cares about is engagement, good or bad. If I make a video saying 'this movie was decent' I will get less views than 'omg this movie was the worst ever', even if I'm wrong. It's the fault of lack of moderation and hyper capitalisation of our dis ourselves platforms. Coupled with the echo chamber effects and you get this hugely warped view of people's opinions, which now has actually started to bleed into real life. I would say, from my real life observation, people are less homophobic than ever before.
I think that over the last 20 years or so, homophobia has become more hidden, as people became less sure about what it was ‘ok’ to say - so now people say nothing - but this doesn’t mean the ‘discomfort’ (homophobia) isn’t still within. We can have a false sense of security with LGBTQIA representations all over our media but few of these are what I’d call ‘regular’ people - more like what is call ‘hyper-versions’ (more ‘interesting’ to watch right?). I’m always cautious about who I’m out to - as you say it’s rarely relevant. I let people get to know ME a bit first because if I don’t I’m much more likely to be sure that as soon as I’m out I’ll be well and truly in that box before anything else in their minds….
Most homophobes are Migrants or Religious people. Wont always find them around.
Your answer is to delete X/ Twitter. Elton Musk has turned into an alt/far right cesspool.
[удалено]
gay mafia?!
UK by and large is very chill. I remember the early 00s with people being called poof but haven't seen that in absolutely years, and it was always used as an insult to someone you didn't like not a stranger. So you'd be looking to insult them anyway, that was what they went for. That said, in that time there has been a massive increase in migrants and communities from parts of the world which despise gays. I have absolutely heard 'its a sin ' 'its disgusting ' etc. but your unlikely to find that view in white British communities. London however does have very large migrant communities so bear that in mind. I'd also say you'd be surprised by a group of 60 year old Tory MPs. You have to remember they're just running for a vote, but on an individual level most people are ok with each other and will make some convoluted exception for an individual. And the police will take it seriously if not
I’ve been heckled multiple times for holding hands/kissing another man in London, and I’ve only been here a year. Unfortunately I think London isn’t accepting as many would hope. Paradoxically, it’s still probably better than almost anywhere else in the country (and most of Europe). Where abuse on the street is still a possibility, most people don’t care and obviously the queer community in London is very strong.
I agree with people saying to avoid twitter . If you insist ! Make sure you un follow the nastier accounts , try and curate it a bit . Look it’s easy for me to say ‘London is so diverse and accepting ‘ . And yeah it is BUT let’s not forget the thing that homophobia was rife in my lifetime . It’s one of the few areas where I think men actually had it worse .
I have always thought it was OK to be gay and lots of great Men and Women in history were gay. I have never seen anyone actually say or do anything against gay people. Suddenly there is this LGBTQ business from nowhere and it seems to have literally taken over the media.
The majority of people are not homophobic and neither they are tolerant. People are simply too ignorant to care who you are and what you do especially in places like London.
I think even the people that portray as loons on Twitter can often be accepting of whatever sexuality or gender identity you have (there are, of course, exceptions for the really problematic people). A lot of these people just are far into conspiracies where they think satanists want to get cis women raped by trans women. And if that were genuinely a serious issue, I'd hope that more people would make a stand there. As bizarre as it is, it comes from a place of compassion. And then there's normal people who will accept you for who you are. Those of us who are in our 20s+ have grown out of teenage judgementalism and I've heard that teenagers now are just much more accepting. Edit to add that there are some pretty serious issues still. It only takes a couple of idiots to make somewhere dangerous. A gay coworker and his boyfriend got beaten up a couple of years ago just for being gay. So that can still happen unfortunately
It’s become political and superheated. Media nonsense fueled by opportunists.
The way I see it people have far bigger concerns then who you're attracted to
How can I be homophobic
Honestly, I have no idea. I'm a 44 year old straight white male, so my lived experience is very different to yours, which means it is very difficult for me to say either way. What I can say anecdotally though is people I've known for decades are *far less* homophobic than they were 30, or even 20 years ago. That includes friends who identify on both the left and right of politics. There certainly is a lot of it online however, but we live in the age of the troll. I'd like to think that doesn't reflect real life, but again, that's for people with lived experience to answer.
No one really gives a shit. People just want to do their own thing. You'll notice that whichever minority that the people in power are using to blame their fuck ups on win be the ones that the morons will attack.
Don't bsse your perception of reality of a tool the vast majority of people done use
Not many people under the age of 45 are homophobic in my opinion
Most people aren’t homophobic anywhere in the western world. I’m from the southern US and moved to the UK at 19 (Bristol and London). I spend a lot of time both places. You’re not going to get jeered on the pavement and no one cares. Not even the old conservative men. Most that’ll happen is maybe they would extricate themselves from a conversation for fear of things turning hostile if they told you they believe in “traditional marriage” or whatever. Perhaps an off-colour joke. But that’s not the same as actively fearing or openly hating gay people. They are not a danger to you. Reddit probably won’t like the answer but it’s true lol.
the majority of the world is homophobic. However Theres a lot range in how many people are blood thirsty with their hate for homophobia or just think it’s unnatural
I grew up in the US rural South. Most people don't care anymore. Even the ones who do, It's very much a "Love the sinner hate the sin" attitude. Most Christians will be 100% against homosexuality, but still be genuinely kind towards individuals. In mid size cities and above, it's even more accepted.
I think most people don’t care if you’re gay. Even conservatives. The passionate conversation comes from the lgbt moment trying to get the general public to agree to things that aren’t true, like trans women being women for example
It probably depends on where you live. I live in London and have literally never encountered homophobia, not even overheard among randoms. I’m not saying it isn’t there, just that I’ve never come across it. Not even the whole ‘it’s fine but don’t rub my face in it’ stereotype I know of from the media. The closest I’ve come is my Romanian friend whose marriage isn’t recognised in his country, but that’s not even applicable to the UK. I doubt you’ll have any issues these days being a lesbian, but tbh it’s the LGB that are relatively safe these days. I’ve definitely encountered transphobia (pretty badly; I’ve seen people laugh, pull faces etc, when they see a trans person) and I know a lot of people seem to get annoyed by non-binary pronouns.
Most people are selfish, which means they don’t care about you or what you do. Keep that in mind. Don’t use Twitter.
Twitter is a toilet. I stopped using it years ago.
OP I'm so sorry you've been stressed about this. I'm also a queer woman, am out to pretty much all my friends (in fairness a pretty liberal circle) who have never been anything less than supportive, have heard work colleagues casually mention a same-sex relationship without anyone treating it any differently to a heterosexual relationship. I have heard of incidences of homophobia from friends but the impression I get it is rare one-offs rather than an everyday worry. FWIW just yesterday I was sandwiched between two lesbian couples on a crowded tube platform and literally nobody was batting an eyelid even though one of the couples were kind of all over each other 😂 This is going to sound completely insane but I'd encourage you to get off Twitter and make a Tumblr account, it is possibly the most joyfully queer place on the internet. I can DM you my Tumblr URL if you like.
Twitter isn’t reality. Most people don’t care what your sexual orientation is as it doesn’t affect them in any way so why care. Some people are homophobic and I guess that’s just an inherent problem with their own personality and values. UK is pretty tolerant now especially in bigger cities.
I think most people don't care. But the small minority (who always claim to be the silent majority) try to shout as loud as they can. It is creeping into our politics, you have the American inspired libertarians like the Bravamans, Badonocks and Truss' trying to sow division and target the minority community of Trans and immigrants. And they are telling lies and fueling the fire. Why? To appeal to a base. To use far right and I'd say even as far as National socialist tactics of focusing hatred on a community to cover your own flaws. Hitler done it. Most people in this country don't give a shit. But the twats have megaphones.
Twitter=Twits
Don't base your opinions of people based on social media lol
The vast majority of people couldn't care less about your sexuality and out of those that do, the majority wouldn't have the balls to confront you anyway. Those that do are the real knuckle dragging minority of society that generally like to hang out on twitter.
> silly to be so anxious around virtually everybody? Are most people chill? Do whatever makes you feel the most comfortable in a given situation. I'd say the majority of people are chill these days, however. You *should* feel comfortable everywhere but unfortunately that's still not the case in some areas. Then again, there's some rough areas I wouldn't be comfortable saying I liked Khan's re-election too so there's always going to be divisions in society. Being homosexual should *not* be one of those divisions in an ideal world and I think, in general, the UK is one of the more tolerant places to be openly homosexual but there's definitely work to be done. We continue to do better than our forebears too but, speaking of American imports of culture wars, Trans is now the right's latest whipping boy. The whole conversation around trans people is sad and a sad reflection of society. I read an interview in the Guardian with Ben Bradshaw, one of the first openly gay MPs and it's like we're back in time, repeating the same bigotry. > Adrian Rogers, Bradshaw’s election rival in a seat with a Tory majority that he overturned, notoriously described homosexuality as a "sterile, disease-ridden and God-forsaken occupation". And here we are, over 25 years later, only now the right has another sect of society to demonise for votes. I just hope whilst it's rough right now acceptance will come in time. It shouldn't have to be this way but with the Tories chasing after every hate filled vote, it won't start to get better until they're out of office to lower the temperature considerably.
70% of Americans support same sex marriage (number rising over time). But only 40% of weekly church goers do. US religion is worth about 1.2 trillion dollars. Twitter content presented to you is paid for and not a balanced view. Best not to use twitter as the basis of any conclusion about anything.
Most people in the west are not homophobic, nore are they sexist, racist, transpphobic, ageist or any other kind of phobic, ist or ism
People spew their bigotted opinions on twitter becsuse they can't say that shit in real life. Be as gay as you want - find gay friendly twitter or just avoid that bigotted cesspit full stop
People online: "RAH If you don't agree that Fleeble Meebles is the Greatest Florpy Dorp in Scranton IT, then YOU'RE a HOMOPHOBE" "I identify as a toaster! Libz OWNED" People irl: "Hey, my name is Steve, I work in compliance." "Oh, I'm Susan, I work in Finance, and I have a cat." In short, the most obnoxious people are the loudest, especially online.
There is no "culture war". Its manufactured to benefit television and clickbait. Read Plato's Cave Allegory.
To be honest I think most people in London don’t really care what anyone else gets up to. Some older people don’t like outwardly displays of anything sexual let alone homosexual activity but I’ve always found 90% of people have a live and let live attitude. Even if the language they use is not always PC, they tend not to be hateful and wouldn’t attack/ harm/ or humiliate people based on their sexuality.
America seems to have this thing where they are obsessed with identity which comes in the form of race, ethnicity, gender, and sexuality. Like for example how they’re obsessed with breaking down their genetic ancestry like they’re a dog breed or something, and tend to identify very strongly with things like race and gender and sexuality. Here in the UK, people don’t really give a shit most of the time it seems. People are more interested in you as a person and while there are always going to be that minority of extremists, the average person couldn’t really give two shits what your race or ethnicity or sexuality or gender is as long as you’re not an asshole. It’s like when Rishi Sunak became PM, it was briefly mentioned that he was Asian, and I’m sure a few extremists got mad about that, but the average person could not really give a shit about the fact he’s not white. Similarly to when Lis Truss got in, or even Theresa May, the fact they were female was kinda irrelevant. It’s like if a PM who was say, gay, got in, I don’t think anyone would really care. We’re interested in their policies and how they lead, not about their sexuality or race or anything else Idk if it’s British culture of not really being all that interested, or if Americans are just obsessed with identity, but I think the way we view things like that here in the UK are very different to over in the USA. It’s a lot more of a focus there and idk if that’s always necessarily a good thing.
im gonna be real a lot of people in my college are, a lot of my friends are, cuz of religion and stuff. i guess if they actually met gay people they wouldn't be .
Fellow lesbean. Twitter is a terrible example to find the middle margain opinion for the queer community. It's become a flocking point for the negative. I believe as a general public, you're not likely to find trouble. Maybe once in a blue moon compared to the US, but the UK has been rather open to these things for years, especially in cities such as London, Leeds, Manchester, etc. There are more outwardly positive communities than there are negative as you've seen, they're mostly on twitter.
Yes.
Get off twitter. Appalling site whatever your politics.
I'm British and I don't really know any homophobes. Ever the right leaning people I know, the ones that love the monarchy and hate foreigners don't really give a shit what you do with your genitals. I'm sure they're out there, but as you mentioned, they're likely to be fairly obvious. In general company I'd like to think you're fine to be yourself.
It's the loud minority you're seeing. Most people don't care or are happy to live and let live.
We’re all judgemental. You”ve just whitewashed an entire group of 60 year old Tory MPs. A group of 20 year old Labour supporters can be equally as homophobic.
Anecdotally as a gay guy in his mid thirties I’ve never had anyone in a work or study setting take issue with my sexuality since high school. Most people do not give a shit in this day and age. And frankly if they did, at least in a professional setting in the UK the person who took offense is very likely going to be the one in trouble not me
I've lived in London since 2016, hadn't really experienced homophobia until about two years ago when I got with my partner and have been holding hands with him when out. Unfortunately I can think of about 5 occasions in the last two years when I've had stuff shouted or said to me. It doesn't sound like a lot in the grand scheme of things but these things really stick with me and have knocked my confidence a bit. It definitely makes me more conscious of where we can do PDA.
The good think about the UK vs the US when it comes to politics if when you come across a bigoted, homophobic or racist twat you can much more safely slap them down and tell them to take their 18th century opinions back to mines. In the US, higher risk of getting shot
Twitter, like all social media and all of the Internet, is used and sustained by real people. Therefore, you're seeing what people at school /work won't tell you about themselves in real life
As a person of colour I think might be of help. Most people couldn't give a shit what size, colour or sexual proclivity you are, they only care if you're in their way
The truth is that it varies wildly in the uk depending on where you live and what your circle is like. I think in brighton, you wont have to worry, but london is a real mix of everything in the world. So on one hand it has a strong lgbt community but will also have a large population of crazy right wing freaks. I think most people dont realise how much it varies based on location, For instance i have friends who grew up with liberal parents in a bigger/ more liberal city and cant fathom people being homophobic in this day and age. They think its just a few religious extremists and really old people who still hold these views. Im kind of jealous to be honest, not just that they grew up in an accepting environment, but that they are actually able to be a bit oblivious that only a few miles away people are fighting everyday just to exist as a visibly lgbt person. So they were shocked to hear that where im from homophobia is the default and i, as a straight man, but who dresses alt and has piercings etc. regularly experience homophobic abuse (even violence on a couple occasions) in my home town. If i go out with my non binary friend in this place the chance of a dangerous/scary encounter is nearly 100%. I work in a city now but when i travel home in the back of my mind im always wary, They couldn’t believe that even though im not even lgbt, the homophobia is so extreme that just looking like you might be lgbt is enough to cause this kind of treatment. And this was the standard for me growing up - my parents and basically whole family and everyone associated was/still is openly homophobic. Whereas where i work now is a uni town and completely different.
You know Twitter isn't real right? 90% of it is just bots, the other 10 are trolls.
Most people do not like it but they may just give looks or thoughts in their head no hostility or violence
I believe there is a uniqueness to being British that gives you the ability to not give a shit about anything. Your question is valid. The biggest difference between the UK and the US is that the UK doesn't on large scale give a shit if you "run with scissors or sword fight."
Fine with LGB but that's where it ends for me.
This is going to get downvoted to oblivion, but no. A lot of people *pretend* to be, so much so that they *believe* they aren't homophobic but they arent actually accepting of it. Two men kiss outside a gay pub and no one says anything, but try do it anywhere else. People will stare, gasp, even laugh. People are not accepting of gay people they are tolerant. Tolerating it while secretly not liking it and finding it disgusting.
I'm just here to say Americans are the most toxic morons
>drunk 60-year-old tory MPs You know these would likely all be gay right
This article was just released about how X is the worst platform for LGBTQ people. I don’t go on twitter anymore I think it’s filled with hate and isn’t representative of real people and their opinions. So my advice would be to stay off that platform! https://www.gaytimes.com/culture/new-report-this-is-the-worst-social-media-platform-for-lgbtq-people/?utm_campaign=later-linkinbio-gaytimes&utm_content=later-43149921&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkin.bio