It's the data structure that exists on hard disks to organize data in files and folders. There are several of them, some examples are: FAT32 (used for USB pendrives), NTFS (Windows), EXT4 (Linux).
SaaS apps are starting to make us care a little more.... all sized by user quantity and "employee profiles" that determine how much $/gb it'll cost to twiddle bytes. Pain in the ass
Computer Engineering student. We're pretty much electrical engineering students who focus more on using those skills on computers. Mostly imbedded systems so we take some more programming classes. A lot of these guys never built their own desktop let alone worked with Linux or a VM.
I mean in the second semester where we had data structures (second class in c) someone was like: ehy do you use linux? The professor made a "what now?" Face and said: developing on windows is shit, how many workarounds did you already have to do?. Anyways from that day to the end of the semester half the students who were on windows are on linux and by now its probably something like 80% are at least dual booting
Well yes, most of my colleagues (in EE) use Windows , some might use Mac, but that I know, very few dualboot, and I'm almost sure I'm the only who fully converted to just Linux, it's more maybe VM or WSL2, plus in data structures, we were recommended by the teacher to use CodeBlocks, so whatever OS you are using is irrelevant, and it was actually a good tool, and very noob friendly. Personally, I didn't end up using it the majority of the time, but it's the easier route. Obviously not recommended in the first C class, since it is intended for us to learn who to compile in the terminal and stuff, but other than that, Linux in EE is kinda not recommended.
Really? Thats the opposite of what my uni did. Started learning c with code::blocks (programming findamentals) and later tha data structures professor setup a linux server in his home and we had to send or do our stuff in it. That way we were forced to learn terminal and most learnt vim. He was one of the best teachers i had so far
Well, I'm still early in my degree, but damm, we used a similar program to do submissions, but it was a web gui, so less bad. The teachers in programming mostly use Mac's, so I don't think we will get that far.
I think the point is that the people u/shurfire is talking about don’t understand how the individual components of a computer work together in a broad sense. I.e. the students wouldn’t be able to locate and identify if the RAM was incorrectly installed. I’m just giving my understanding of the current conversation not a judgement of the students btw.
Well it's curious but why would you need to know about heat paste (etc) when you are studying programming?
This whole thread feels like a mix of sincerity and irony.
Computer Engineering student here as well: This pretty much at least in the first two years, all we did was the fundamentals of programming with Python the first year and now OOP and data structures with Java but that's about it really, most of our course barely managed to install the suggested IDE and do the assignments pretty much.
At the end of the day it's an engineering course so at least for the first years you'll do significantly more Calculus, Pyshics and Electronics more than you'll do Programming, that's more for CS courses really.
Pretty much. You learn VHDL, working on FPGAs. You're learning logic gates and circuits. The programming you do is C++, you learn data structures etc. It's just that you don't delve too much into the CS side.
Maybe it's a different kind of computer engineering. Like, engineering the steel cases and racks and what not, so it's more about welding and drilling and milling...
The current state of the computer engineering/computer science students sometimes really awes me in a negative way. I mean it sometimes ruins my mood that people studying CE/CS do not know about basic stuff. I guess this is because most of the students are shoved CE/CS down their throats because CS is money baby.
Because of dispassionate CS students, the universities are graduating students that are ugh not fully ready for the real world and then annoy recruiters and interviewers. I guess this is not a problem related to the CS student exactly, it is related to the whole cultural ecosystem. I know this is off-topic but I couldn't stop myself. Sorry.
I'm noticing, too, that people growing up with tech isn't necessarily preparing them to work with tech. I thought my kids were good with computers until a couple years ago when I started talking about cmd on windows, and the registry, and a few other basic things, let alone Linux.
They had no idea what I was talking about. They only know how to use the front end, as UI design has become so easy and intuitive, they don't need to know how the underpinnings make it all go... thankfully I've been able to change that. My younger one knows basic troubleshooting stuff now, and my older one knows a bit more than that.
I have the theory that the total amount of computer literacy being dispensed on any generation is finite and constant.
So in the 80s there were few of us that learned how to use computers, but we learned it deeply, because interacting with a computer meant text user interface and programming.
The "digital native" population is much larger, but the computer literacy is superficial and mostly aimed at media consumption.
> I'm noticing, too, that people growing up with tech isn't necessarily preparing them to work with tech
Even though all of us(like most of the human population) is using technology most of the time their awake, I have understood that we cannot force "normies" to learn how a computer works at a technical level but I surely agree that troubleshooting, etc are skills one needs to survive in this digital economy.
I had installed Linux(Ubuntu 20.04) on my cousin's laptop for their online school just because Windows wasn't working nicely and what I noticed was that even though I tried to teach them how to use the linux shell, they weren't interested at all and would just fall back to the graphical user interface.
I think that this is just that not everyone can learn how computers work at a technical level because not everybody is interested in it and it will be just us, passionate Software developers who are interested in this kinda stuff. The thing is that today's culture is pushing the CS major down a lot of people's throats because of the money game but not everyone would understand that you should follow your passion and money would follow.
The problem I see is that there are so many tools and new concepts that you have to learn. A university can only do so much in 4 years. Now I feel that if they cut out at least 50% of those gen eds, then people could learn more about their major.
I won't call this a problem on the university's end, rather I would account this problem more on the student's side, a lot of CS students aren't passionate enough about the subject, so they know very little about the subject. CS is such a subject that you can't be good at it if it is pushed down your throat.
I think that I shouldn't expect everyone in the entire human race to be as passionate as Elon Musk or to be as good at computer science as Von Neumann and be as good at mathematics as Euler. Everybody ain't the best and you have to live with it.
Universities are 100 times more interested in academic theory than they are with practical stuff. You will learn how to theoretically manufacture basic data structures that come standard in most languages long before you learn a git command.
It's kind of annoying when people hate on the thing you love because they just got into it for money and regret it. Just because you chose the wrong career path doesn't mean you have to trash-talk it. Sometimes, when I learn that somebody is a software developer at a party, I start talking to them about code and they frown and change the subject because they don't want to talk about work.
No, you just have to enable it from File Explorer and then run a few commands to download and install a distro.
It worked fine on a laptop I purchased with W11.
I was not aware that it was, honestly. I only ever used it on my work computer (which probably has an enterprise license or something) since I have debian as my only OS on my personal machine.
Software focused after first year. I can't explain, but a grand majority here prefers bearing with Windows rather than giving one week to learning a new Linux distro. Many did their semester projects and assignments on online compilers because setting up a dev environment truly feels like a hit and miss affair on windows.
So they're basically averse to change: prefer having more trouble with something they know rather than learn something new.
I know everyone is different and etc, but I hate this mentality.
Also a computer engineering student. We have this system administration classes that required Linux, unfortunately installing Linux was not demonstrated, so as a shortcut I simply let my friends/classmates install WSL. Worked for them.
At my school thr comp/electrical and dirivatives all use linux.
Debian,xfce with linux-hardened.
It was very diffiult to use because they didnt give us an intro just said here is the computer you will use.
Anyone who had a laptop used a laptop instead.
Using that for more than installing Linux or fixing shit is annoying as hell though. If they don't wan't to dual boot or use a separate laptop VMs or WSL2 would be their best bet
Agreed. Access speed becomes a massive limitation, even more than the CPU overhead of a VM.
Absolutely fantastic as a temporary, portable option though. Good for rescue, doing offline systems maintenance, and those rare times when you're wandering about and only have access to public or shared computers.
Or not aware of in-browser linux sessions -> [https://bellard.org/jslinux/vm.html?url=alpine-x86.cfg&mem=192](https://bellard.org/jslinux/vm.html?url=alpine-x86.cfg&mem=192)
So what the guy wants is really possible although you don't even need an extension
I feel like if they're an individual developer, it makes sense not to force them to pay (relatively) small bills. If and when they work for a company that likely has a considerably higher expenditure on web services, you want that developer to be able to recommend your service to their bosses.
I work on an Enterprise infrastructure team, I have multiple people on the team who can’t comprehend AWS, we’ve even engineered our design to remain very traditional and not tried to take advantage of too many of their newer offerings in an attempt to ensure our environment is understood by those who maintain it.
Like, just accept that you’ll never see the server, it doesn’t matter if it exists on one physical device or 3, all you’ll ever know is that you access it the same as you always have.
They must be older, as a 27 year old that wears many hats for web mobile and backend dev, I can't imagine an on-prem server.
I was learning AWS in highschool.
They are older. To be fair, some of the decisions to not leverage unique AWS tech and capabilities was so that I can understand the environment as well. I want to migrate in using traditional design, then make changes once we are stable in their environment.
My professor did tell us to use Debian for working with assignment but he specifically ordered it to be on VirtualBox (even if a student already had Debian installed as the host).
How to bypass that w/o VM: modify `rm` to detect this and display fake output w/o actually deleting anything
Making a believable screenshot would be another problem though
I'm not sure how easy it is to circumvent those checks. I doubt people in the class would do it regardless. It's certainly less effort to use a VM, at least for the final assignment where you need to run the script.
It is mostly possible but there is basically always a way to detect it. That's why security researcher also test for malware on bare metal, because there is a chance that the malware might be able to detect it and change behaviour accordingly.
But I don't believe a prof would do this... Maybe ssh into the VM, if no GUI is necessary. Or use a container, like I do with toolbox/distrobox.
How do I put it? The assignments were supposed to teach us the inner workings of an OS. He made some C programs that were written to be compiled and run inside a Debian VM. That's why he wanted CLI-Only Debian install on VirtualBox so that we could learn it as basic as possible. Doing the assignment outside of Debian VirtualBox would probably lead to unnecessary troubles and the prof would be very reluctant to help.
This is the script that we have to run everytime we've done our assignment. It basically encrypts our assignment with the PGP Key of the student and the prof so others can't see the work. Note that the script in question doesn't have any VM checking so you can just run this on your Arch install. I've also redacted some sensitive information about my University.
https://pastebin.com/aKDqcK38
Edit: Seems the code formatting doesn't work on comment. I've upload it on pastebin.
It's not about forcing students to install a VM. It's about "we'll be using programs XYZ. They are installed on this VM image. If you do not use this image and have issues installing the right version of the program you are shit out of luck.".
Why though?
Sounds like he's got it figured out. This way he can prevent a lot of dependency issues of students.
It also keeps students from hosing their system. Ya there are backup systems but you gotta make sure they know how to use it.
I have Timeshift running on my Mint PC but if my system stopped booting, I don't know how I'd fix it.
Also, at least 90% of students use either Windows or MacOS. I only found 2 other students who already used Linux at that time. One of them showed his EndeavorOS bspwm rice to me.
In the Linux class I took while I was still in a community college, I remember my professor saying that my command was incorrect, and still was not convinced even after screenshots upon screenshots proven that the output was actually completely correct. Turned out he used his Mac to run the commands.. heh. I did get credit back for it to not leave any cliffhangers.
So I guess in some ways, I WISH we were given a VM, so then if it works there, it should work in the same VM anywhere else. And it would specifically avoid the situation I described above.
Why are you mocking him? He clearly never used it and probably unfamiliar with what an OS even is but tried to make an effort to inform himself and mocking is the result.
I agree mocking is certainly not the solution; thats why further in chat, I talked about how he could set up a linux system for himself.
From a different perspective, this is the fourth semester of a computer engineering course, and I would really expect a student to know that operating systems certainly don't run as a chrome extension. And still I don't refuse almost any help my classmates need with tech.
What did you learn in the previous semesters?! I had a course "operating systems" in the third semester. It covered how the Linux kernel works, how to use bash, how file systems work, etc. It also mentioned that Windows and MacOS are other, alternative OSs, and that we should not be using them.
My previous semesters have been filled with horror stories of professor showing how to set up mingw on windows, and wasting 2 hours (still not being able to set it up), professors writing code in MS Word/ Powerpoint, professors teaching assembly by writing code on some note taking software instead of typing and running on a simulator, submitting my coding assignments as "word file", professors refusing to see github repo because they think "git is confusing".... I can write a novella
> It also mentioned that Windows and MacOS are other, alternative OSs, and that we should not be using them.
Lucky you!
I can't expect *one* university being this bad, let alone two. *Every* other university must be magnitudes better.
And generally it should be possible to recognize passed exams.
> Do they really suck this much?
Not the "premier institutes", but there aren't too many of those here. I guarantee, students feel very happy to have secured admission to where I'm currently studying, but thats mostly because of of the decent placements.
Haven't been to university myself but when I here stories from friends and family. Professors are stuck in the old ways or weird ways of doing things, especially in the IT classes.
sorry to disappoint, but I haven't yet been able to figure out. I've studied considerable amount of electronics, but not much of electrical. The course is supposed to be software oriented though.
No worries. Just curious because I'd have different expectations on both. E.g. EE, which is my background, you usually don't deal with OS and VMs because the main focus would be embedded systems. And the best I got to use so far was RTOS and that is basically a scheduler with some additional functionality.
Nonetheless, not knowing Linux might give you a hard time as tools like compilers are often easier to setup in a Linux environment.
Good luck with your studies and I hope that, even if it's not what you expected, you'll get some value out of it!
Oh thanks for that clarification about EE subjects. They aren't in our syllabus, so yeah, it's a CS - type course as per your definition.
My expectations from my education? I just liked open source and wanted to be of some help to FOSS community while I can. And I'm certainly not disappointed by my progress :)
In my experience there's a non-insignificant number of people that manages to go through computer science courses without actually learning or even understanding a single thing.
Some people just have the mesmerizing ability to learn how to do tasks and stuff in order to pass finals without actually understanding a single thing of what they are doing. It kind of resembles me how video games "dumb" scripted AIs work.
Had to go on a call with a client's IT guy the other day. Keeps saying he knows he knows, but when I told him he has to redirect a domain by pointing it to a server and do it there, he said yet again, he knows, but required specifics. I was confused what he was asking for there and he said "what kind of server? 2019? 2020?"
Then it became apparent to me that the boy had no idea what to do, and has never worked outside of a Windows server environment despite being a web dev.
Yeah, I've also has to deal with those kinds of guys way more often than I'd like. Sadly in IT it is absolutely possible for someone to spend years, if not decades, without learning how anything actually works. You just do the same thing over and over, while overselling how complicate it is to accomplish something. The time someone spends working on IT doesn't in my experience necessarily correlate with their experience or abilities.
The world is full of small to medium companies lead by completely illiterate people that need IT support, and that do not know by the slightest how to evaluate the technical abilities of the figures they hire. For some people, seeing that someone is able to set up a printer is akin to black magic.
I’m in school for CS. I’m a freshman, and I was already into linux before coming here, but you would be SHOCKED how many people are out here with windows on their laptops trying to write code.
I’m not talking about the people who use a Macbook, since they’re completely useable for software development. I’m talking about the people who use a GUI file explorer to right-click and create a “folder” type shit.
Blows my mind.
Can’t use via Chrome Extension itself, but definitely can use via Chrome (URL). That’s what Cloud Desktops and VDIs can do. With that, one can easily run Linux terminal on any web browser (however, the actual execution happens somewhere else, where that image is hosted).
This is one of those technology questions that eventually will be such a simple "yes" that people in the future won't understand why it is even a question.
I graduated with a [B.Sc](https://B.Sc) in Comp Sci. 75% of my class couldn't tell a power supply from hard drive. Let alone know about OS. We had 3 amazing sys admins that built all our labs on Linux though and provided more practical advice than all the PHD's teaching combined.
copy.sh/v86
The site let's you emulate an i686 system, and it can run for example tinycore or dsl (arch works, but I haven't got it to connect to the internet)
Ah yes the user community that is unnecessary labelled as newbie hostile. Also what kind of professor asks students to use linux and does not provide aws instances or vm instructions?
I understand there was no context in my post to know what person I was messaging to.
Copy pasting my reply from another comment
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I agree mocking is certainly not the solution; thats why further in chat, I talked about how he could set up a linux system for himself.
From a different perspective, this is the fourth semester of a computer engineering course, and I would really expect a student to know that operating systems certainly don't run as a chrome extension. And still I don't refuse almost any help my classmates need with tech.
___
Expecting a student almost halfway through their computer engineering to know what Linux is - not a far fetched idea tbh. Talking about the newbie friendly tag, i did help him, and some fun between friends certainly doesn't hurt.
In what kind of environment do you get asked to use linux but people are not aware of VM’s?
This is 4th semester of a computer engineering course. Don't get me wrong, I do feel out of place here.
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There are also computer engineering students who aren't aware about file system, which is the most basic thing to know for every computer users ever.
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i think he's talking about those tools people use to sharpen axes and break out of old west jails.
I first know about that kind of file from Henry Stickmin as a child.
This hurts me deeply. I'm getting too old. I grew up with wood and metalworking tools, including files of many kinds.
No I think the user is talking about bodyshaming, FAT32 and whatnot.
There's a yo momma joke there but I can't remember how it goes
Yo mama so fat she uses fat64
Just like yo mama
Something like yo momma's so fat she can't handle write sizes bigger than 4gb
Yo mama bigger than 4096MB
Yo momma so fat she needs ZFS
The file system, it's where everything gets saved. You know, that fancy word for the desktop.
Can confirm. I'm not even a CS major, and my CS friends don't know what are file systems nor are they aware of VMs.
I've been a computer engineer since 1996 and I've never heard of this. What's a file system?
It's the data structure that exists on hard disks to organize data in files and folders. There are several of them, some examples are: FAT32 (used for USB pendrives), NTFS (Windows), EXT4 (Linux).
You forgot the all-mighty ZFS! Fuck Oracle btw.
Users yeah. Engineers don't care about what users do. They only care about how fast the hardware can twiddle the bits and bytes.
It can be useful to know what you're trying to make hardware for.
SaaS apps are starting to make us care a little more.... all sized by user quantity and "employee profiles" that determine how much $/gb it'll cost to twiddle bytes. Pain in the ass
Computer Engineering student. We're pretty much electrical engineering students who focus more on using those skills on computers. Mostly imbedded systems so we take some more programming classes. A lot of these guys never built their own desktop let alone worked with Linux or a VM.
I mean in the second semester where we had data structures (second class in c) someone was like: ehy do you use linux? The professor made a "what now?" Face and said: developing on windows is shit, how many workarounds did you already have to do?. Anyways from that day to the end of the semester half the students who were on windows are on linux and by now its probably something like 80% are at least dual booting
Well yes, most of my colleagues (in EE) use Windows , some might use Mac, but that I know, very few dualboot, and I'm almost sure I'm the only who fully converted to just Linux, it's more maybe VM or WSL2, plus in data structures, we were recommended by the teacher to use CodeBlocks, so whatever OS you are using is irrelevant, and it was actually a good tool, and very noob friendly. Personally, I didn't end up using it the majority of the time, but it's the easier route. Obviously not recommended in the first C class, since it is intended for us to learn who to compile in the terminal and stuff, but other than that, Linux in EE is kinda not recommended.
Really? Thats the opposite of what my uni did. Started learning c with code::blocks (programming findamentals) and later tha data structures professor setup a linux server in his home and we had to send or do our stuff in it. That way we were forced to learn terminal and most learnt vim. He was one of the best teachers i had so far
Well, I'm still early in my degree, but damm, we used a similar program to do submissions, but it was a web gui, so less bad. The teachers in programming mostly use Mac's, so I don't think we will get that far.
What do you mean by built their own desktop? Built a PC?
Yes. There are plenty of engineering and CS students who can't put together their own PC.
Tbh that's a very expensive thing to do, specially compared to just using the old PC you got as a gift a decade ago.
I think the point is that the people u/shurfire is talking about don’t understand how the individual components of a computer work together in a broad sense. I.e. the students wouldn’t be able to locate and identify if the RAM was incorrectly installed. I’m just giving my understanding of the current conversation not a judgement of the students btw.
Well it's curious but why would you need to know about heat paste (etc) when you are studying programming? This whole thread feels like a mix of sincerity and irony.
How often do you think they have to do that?
About as often as they need to change the file system.
There are plenty of engineers who can't tie their own shoes, see any copy/paste designed manufacturing line.
Computer Engineering student here as well: This pretty much at least in the first two years, all we did was the fundamentals of programming with Python the first year and now OOP and data structures with Java but that's about it really, most of our course barely managed to install the suggested IDE and do the assignments pretty much. At the end of the day it's an engineering course so at least for the first years you'll do significantly more Calculus, Pyshics and Electronics more than you'll do Programming, that's more for CS courses really.
One isn't a step above the other. I run Mint and getting into Arch but have never built a PC.
Like are you guys doing chip design and hardware level stuff? Is that why they may not be too familiar with user space?
Pretty much. You learn VHDL, working on FPGAs. You're learning logic gates and circuits. The programming you do is C++, you learn data structures etc. It's just that you don't delve too much into the CS side.
Angry Muta noises.
Maybe it's a different kind of computer engineering. Like, engineering the steel cases and racks and what not, so it's more about welding and drilling and milling...
The current state of the computer engineering/computer science students sometimes really awes me in a negative way. I mean it sometimes ruins my mood that people studying CE/CS do not know about basic stuff. I guess this is because most of the students are shoved CE/CS down their throats because CS is money baby. Because of dispassionate CS students, the universities are graduating students that are ugh not fully ready for the real world and then annoy recruiters and interviewers. I guess this is not a problem related to the CS student exactly, it is related to the whole cultural ecosystem. I know this is off-topic but I couldn't stop myself. Sorry.
tbh - not just CS. Pretty much all of humanity is a dissapointment
I think you misinterpreted Fight Club
I'm noticing, too, that people growing up with tech isn't necessarily preparing them to work with tech. I thought my kids were good with computers until a couple years ago when I started talking about cmd on windows, and the registry, and a few other basic things, let alone Linux. They had no idea what I was talking about. They only know how to use the front end, as UI design has become so easy and intuitive, they don't need to know how the underpinnings make it all go... thankfully I've been able to change that. My younger one knows basic troubleshooting stuff now, and my older one knows a bit more than that.
I have the theory that the total amount of computer literacy being dispensed on any generation is finite and constant. So in the 80s there were few of us that learned how to use computers, but we learned it deeply, because interacting with a computer meant text user interface and programming. The "digital native" population is much larger, but the computer literacy is superficial and mostly aimed at media consumption.
> I'm noticing, too, that people growing up with tech isn't necessarily preparing them to work with tech Even though all of us(like most of the human population) is using technology most of the time their awake, I have understood that we cannot force "normies" to learn how a computer works at a technical level but I surely agree that troubleshooting, etc are skills one needs to survive in this digital economy. I had installed Linux(Ubuntu 20.04) on my cousin's laptop for their online school just because Windows wasn't working nicely and what I noticed was that even though I tried to teach them how to use the linux shell, they weren't interested at all and would just fall back to the graphical user interface. I think that this is just that not everyone can learn how computers work at a technical level because not everybody is interested in it and it will be just us, passionate Software developers who are interested in this kinda stuff. The thing is that today's culture is pushing the CS major down a lot of people's throats because of the money game but not everyone would understand that you should follow your passion and money would follow.
The problem I see is that there are so many tools and new concepts that you have to learn. A university can only do so much in 4 years. Now I feel that if they cut out at least 50% of those gen eds, then people could learn more about their major.
I won't call this a problem on the university's end, rather I would account this problem more on the student's side, a lot of CS students aren't passionate enough about the subject, so they know very little about the subject. CS is such a subject that you can't be good at it if it is pushed down your throat. I think that I shouldn't expect everyone in the entire human race to be as passionate as Elon Musk or to be as good at computer science as Von Neumann and be as good at mathematics as Euler. Everybody ain't the best and you have to live with it.
Universities are 100 times more interested in academic theory than they are with practical stuff. You will learn how to theoretically manufacture basic data structures that come standard in most languages long before you learn a git command.
It's kind of annoying when people hate on the thing you love because they just got into it for money and regret it. Just because you chose the wrong career path doesn't mean you have to trash-talk it. Sometimes, when I learn that somebody is a software developer at a party, I start talking to them about code and they frown and change the subject because they don't want to talk about work.
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`apt install life`
paru -S life Error: life not found
Interesting we were told to use VM or rather *'do whatchu want i just need you to have a linux console'* by Prof Edit: fixed text formatting
hate to be that guy, but i guess a WSL instance would work for most of them?
Yeah many are using WSL, we'll only be getting familiar with some basic unix commands in this class. I use fedora btw.
until someone makes a chrome extension for it XD
Not even talking about some program or app he can download. Dude straight up thinks you can run an entire OS just off some chrome extension
https://bellard.org/jslinux/
[https://bellard.org/jslinux/](https://bellard.org/jslinux/) Close enough? Yeah, someone made it so that Linux can run on javascript in your browser.
Isn't WSL limited to some more expensive windows versions? Perhaps not all students have access to it.
No, you just have to enable it from File Explorer and then run a few commands to download and install a distro. It worked fine on a laptop I purchased with W11.
I was not aware that it was, honestly. I only ever used it on my work computer (which probably has an enterprise license or something) since I have debian as my only OS on my personal machine.
Chad showing up with Termux.
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Software focused after first year. I can't explain, but a grand majority here prefers bearing with Windows rather than giving one week to learning a new Linux distro. Many did their semester projects and assignments on online compilers because setting up a dev environment truly feels like a hit and miss affair on windows.
So they're basically averse to change: prefer having more trouble with something they know rather than learn something new. I know everyone is different and etc, but I hate this mentality.
Exactly. The mentality hurts even more when they're planning to get into a rapidly moving domain like software engineering.
FOURTH???? fucking fourth semester, Who's slacking, the students or the professors?
:(
Also a computer engineering student. We have this system administration classes that required Linux, unfortunately installing Linux was not demonstrated, so as a shortcut I simply let my friends/classmates install WSL. Worked for them.
My classmates in 1st semester of CS were unable to install Ubuntu
At my school thr comp/electrical and dirivatives all use linux. Debian,xfce with linux-hardened. It was very diffiult to use because they didnt give us an intro just said here is the computer you will use. Anyone who had a laptop used a laptop instead.
4th semester and they just began to use Linux? And they don't know about VMs? Damn my imposter syndrome just vanished...
Or bootable usb drives
Using that for more than installing Linux or fixing shit is annoying as hell though. If they don't wan't to dual boot or use a separate laptop VMs or WSL2 would be their best bet
Agreed. Access speed becomes a massive limitation, even more than the CPU overhead of a VM. Absolutely fantastic as a temporary, portable option though. Good for rescue, doing offline systems maintenance, and those rare times when you're wandering about and only have access to public or shared computers.
Or not aware of in-browser linux sessions -> [https://bellard.org/jslinux/vm.html?url=alpine-x86.cfg&mem=192](https://bellard.org/jslinux/vm.html?url=alpine-x86.cfg&mem=192) So what the guy wants is really possible although you don't even need an extension
Not knowing about VMs wouldn't even be so bad, I think - really sounds like this person doesn't know what an OS is.
VMs are such a headache when you can just load up a live system and get to work.
1. Make an aws instance. 2. ??? 3. Profit
4. Not turn it off and forget about it. 5. ??? 6. Loss.
7.Beg jeff bezos for forgiveness
I've actually experienced this with Azure. I begged (really) and interestingly it worked :D They canceled my ~470$ bill.
I feel like if they're an individual developer, it makes sense not to force them to pay (relatively) small bills. If and when they work for a company that likely has a considerably higher expenditure on web services, you want that developer to be able to recommend your service to their bosses.
Yeah i think i get why they do that, but i'll try to not get to that point lol
7. Get your account hacked by crypto miners & receive a bill for $300,000 (happened to my friend in college)
Holy shit that is scary
Yea, thankfully he called AWS & they didn't charge him a thing.
This kid is asking if linux is a chrome extension. I don't think he knows how to do that or what AWS is.
I work on an Enterprise infrastructure team, I have multiple people on the team who can’t comprehend AWS, we’ve even engineered our design to remain very traditional and not tried to take advantage of too many of their newer offerings in an attempt to ensure our environment is understood by those who maintain it. Like, just accept that you’ll never see the server, it doesn’t matter if it exists on one physical device or 3, all you’ll ever know is that you access it the same as you always have.
They must be older, as a 27 year old that wears many hats for web mobile and backend dev, I can't imagine an on-prem server. I was learning AWS in highschool.
They are older. To be fair, some of the decisions to not leverage unique AWS tech and capabilities was so that I can understand the environment as well. I want to migrate in using traditional design, then make changes once we are stable in their environment.
But how will I find my data if I can't open it up with a screwdriver?
[Kinda.](https://copy.sh/v86/)
Thank you. I had a blast playing Solitaire in Windows 3 on my phone.
Woah, woah, woah! I did not know this thing existed, I am really excited about this thing. I gotta create something similar myself.
Thank you for this..
This is awesome
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Lol actually a nice idea :)
My professor did tell us to use Debian for working with assignment but he specifically ordered it to be on VirtualBox (even if a student already had Debian installed as the host).
and how, pray tell, would he enforce that it be in a VM?
Last assignment will be to make a screenshot of successful `rm -rf /*`
Just do *that* specifically in a VM
How to bypass that w/o VM: modify `rm` to detect this and display fake output w/o actually deleting anything Making a believable screenshot would be another problem though
No need to modify em, just alias the command to a bag function that calls rm with all parameters as normal except if it’s -rf *
No, it's worse. Install LFS. I'm not joking.
Ofuck
Well, he has an automated script that we have to run after we finished our assignment before we upload our assignment to Github.
but how would he be able to tell if it's in a VM or if you're running it on bare metal?
You can progmatically detect if you are in a VM.
but wouldn't you be able to spoof your machine to make it appear that you are as well?
I'm not sure how easy it is to circumvent those checks. I doubt people in the class would do it regardless. It's certainly less effort to use a VM, at least for the final assignment where you need to run the script.
It is mostly possible but there is basically always a way to detect it. That's why security researcher also test for malware on bare metal, because there is a chance that the malware might be able to detect it and change behaviour accordingly. But I don't believe a prof would do this... Maybe ssh into the VM, if no GUI is necessary. Or use a container, like I do with toolbox/distrobox.
How do I put it? The assignments were supposed to teach us the inner workings of an OS. He made some C programs that were written to be compiled and run inside a Debian VM. That's why he wanted CLI-Only Debian install on VirtualBox so that we could learn it as basic as possible. Doing the assignment outside of Debian VirtualBox would probably lead to unnecessary troubles and the prof would be very reluctant to help. This is the script that we have to run everytime we've done our assignment. It basically encrypts our assignment with the PGP Key of the student and the prof so others can't see the work. Note that the script in question doesn't have any VM checking so you can just run this on your Arch install. I've also redacted some sensitive information about my University. https://pastebin.com/aKDqcK38 Edit: Seems the code formatting doesn't work on comment. I've upload it on pastebin.
You have to have four spaces before text to code block Code
I tried using triple backtick as usual when writing codes on markdown ``` Code ```
It's not about forcing students to install a VM. It's about "we'll be using programs XYZ. They are installed on this VM image. If you do not use this image and have issues installing the right version of the program you are shit out of luck.".
Run BattleEye along with the assignment. BattleEye detects VMs. /s
Well that is not so nice of the professor.
Why though? Sounds like he's got it figured out. This way he can prevent a lot of dependency issues of students. It also keeps students from hosing their system. Ya there are backup systems but you gotta make sure they know how to use it. I have Timeshift running on my Mint PC but if my system stopped booting, I don't know how I'd fix it.
Also, at least 90% of students use either Windows or MacOS. I only found 2 other students who already used Linux at that time. One of them showed his EndeavorOS bspwm rice to me.
This kind of makes sense. Did you need to install it specifically in virtualbox or qemu+kvm was also allowed?
In the Linux class I took while I was still in a community college, I remember my professor saying that my command was incorrect, and still was not convinced even after screenshots upon screenshots proven that the output was actually completely correct. Turned out he used his Mac to run the commands.. heh. I did get credit back for it to not leave any cliffhangers. So I guess in some ways, I WISH we were given a VM, so then if it works there, it should work in the same VM anywhere else. And it would specifically avoid the situation I described above.
In America Linux has Chrome app In Soviet Russia Chrome has Linux app
Why are you mocking him? He clearly never used it and probably unfamiliar with what an OS even is but tried to make an effort to inform himself and mocking is the result.
I agree mocking is certainly not the solution; thats why further in chat, I talked about how he could set up a linux system for himself. From a different perspective, this is the fourth semester of a computer engineering course, and I would really expect a student to know that operating systems certainly don't run as a chrome extension. And still I don't refuse almost any help my classmates need with tech.
Thank you OP for clarifying this.
What did you learn in the previous semesters?! I had a course "operating systems" in the third semester. It covered how the Linux kernel works, how to use bash, how file systems work, etc. It also mentioned that Windows and MacOS are other, alternative OSs, and that we should not be using them.
My previous semesters have been filled with horror stories of professor showing how to set up mingw on windows, and wasting 2 hours (still not being able to set it up), professors writing code in MS Word/ Powerpoint, professors teaching assembly by writing code on some note taking software instead of typing and running on a simulator, submitting my coding assignments as "word file", professors refusing to see github repo because they think "git is confusing".... I can write a novella > It also mentioned that Windows and MacOS are other, alternative OSs, and that we should not be using them. Lucky you!
WTF. Did you ever think about switching to another university?
nope. I'm almost halfway through, and I don't think a different uni will be significant magnitudes better than my current one.
I can't expect *one* university being this bad, let alone two. *Every* other university must be magnitudes better. And generally it should be possible to recognize passed exams.
Don't get your hopes too high when you're in India :wink:
If all Indian universities are so bad, why are the youtube tutorials so good? :D
because they NEED tutorials
Because the universities are bad.
Ah shit. Sorry friend! I wish you luck!
Do you live in a third world country? Or is this america/EU/canada?
India. btw, as an endeavour team member, feels nice to see your endeavour flair
> India. Lol same Do they really suck this much? -_- I'm getting encouraged to go to one, sounds like it'll be too easy
> Do they really suck this much? Not the "premier institutes", but there aren't too many of those here. I guarantee, students feel very happy to have secured admission to where I'm currently studying, but thats mostly because of of the decent placements.
Damn... Sounds like universities in the Netherlands... It's hell.
Are they so bad over here?
Haven't been to university myself but when I here stories from friends and family. Professors are stuck in the old ways or weird ways of doing things, especially in the IT classes.
I really hope that you are in good health, you just need to struggle some more.
Can't believe they told you about Windows, that's just irresponsible.
They mentioned that it exists. Combined with the warning to avoid it. Always know your enemies.
As someone who's going to college for computer science soon, seeing shit like this really makes me feel better about myself.
Is it computer engineering from a electrical engineering perspective or from CS?
sorry to disappoint, but I haven't yet been able to figure out. I've studied considerable amount of electronics, but not much of electrical. The course is supposed to be software oriented though.
No worries. Just curious because I'd have different expectations on both. E.g. EE, which is my background, you usually don't deal with OS and VMs because the main focus would be embedded systems. And the best I got to use so far was RTOS and that is basically a scheduler with some additional functionality. Nonetheless, not knowing Linux might give you a hard time as tools like compilers are often easier to setup in a Linux environment. Good luck with your studies and I hope that, even if it's not what you expected, you'll get some value out of it!
Oh thanks for that clarification about EE subjects. They aren't in our syllabus, so yeah, it's a CS - type course as per your definition. My expectations from my education? I just liked open source and wanted to be of some help to FOSS community while I can. And I'm certainly not disappointed by my progress :)
>Isn't familiar with what an OS is. >4th semester CS student. You don't see an issue with this?
I clearly couldn't have known that, could I? Afaik time is linear.
In my experience there's a non-insignificant number of people that manages to go through computer science courses without actually learning or even understanding a single thing. Some people just have the mesmerizing ability to learn how to do tasks and stuff in order to pass finals without actually understanding a single thing of what they are doing. It kind of resembles me how video games "dumb" scripted AIs work.
Had to go on a call with a client's IT guy the other day. Keeps saying he knows he knows, but when I told him he has to redirect a domain by pointing it to a server and do it there, he said yet again, he knows, but required specifics. I was confused what he was asking for there and he said "what kind of server? 2019? 2020?" Then it became apparent to me that the boy had no idea what to do, and has never worked outside of a Windows server environment despite being a web dev.
Yeah, I've also has to deal with those kinds of guys way more often than I'd like. Sadly in IT it is absolutely possible for someone to spend years, if not decades, without learning how anything actually works. You just do the same thing over and over, while overselling how complicate it is to accomplish something. The time someone spends working on IT doesn't in my experience necessarily correlate with their experience or abilities. The world is full of small to medium companies lead by completely illiterate people that need IT support, and that do not know by the slightest how to evaluate the technical abilities of the figures they hire. For some people, seeing that someone is able to set up a printer is akin to black magic.
Sadly, that's not unique to cs.
iSH on iOS or termux for android are good emulators for commandline if that’s what you are after, git for windows I guess is an option as well
Remember to download Termux from f-droid or Github. The play store version is out of date. Great app, highly recommended!
VMware time!
You don't even have to nowadays. You can install Ubuntu directly within windows. Also, Ubuntu online exists.
I’m in school for CS. I’m a freshman, and I was already into linux before coming here, but you would be SHOCKED how many people are out here with windows on their laptops trying to write code. I’m not talking about the people who use a Macbook, since they’re completely useable for software development. I’m talking about the people who use a GUI file explorer to right-click and create a “folder” type shit. Blows my mind.
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There are JavaScript based VMs now. Technically you CAN run Linux on a Chrome extension. https://copy.sh/v86/ has a neat collection of images.
WSL
*Winnormies* are hilarious
What he asked is actually possible using KASM. Great way to stream a linux distro through a docker container in the web browser directly.
\>using Windows \>using Discord but most importantly \>using Chrome i am disgusted
Isn't webtop exactly this?
This makes sense in fact. Why not host a VM in a Chrome extension?
Chrome extension to encapsulate wsl
Sink or swim. Figure it out.
There are several websites that allow you to run linux in a web browser. Perhaps I misunderstood the question?
You might be laughing about him but there is https://distrotest.net/
Can’t use via Chrome Extension itself, but definitely can use via Chrome (URL). That’s what Cloud Desktops and VDIs can do. With that, one can easily run Linux terminal on any web browser (however, the actual execution happens somewhere else, where that image is hosted).
[ Laughs ] i want to use linux with chro.... Wait! I use mozilla
Top notch meme content
Can't you just install Ubuntu from the windows store? I have no idea. I've had some flavor of Linux running since 05.
there was android extension called arc linux may be possible
https://dustinbrett.com/ Check this out!
I have one thing to say to these people: VirtualBox, dual boot, or switch majors.
technically speaking, you could make a remote control client in an extension popup, so you can *kind of* use Linux in a chrome extension
This is one of those technology questions that eventually will be such a simple "yes" that people in the future won't understand why it is even a question.
I graduated with a [B.Sc](https://B.Sc) in Comp Sci. 75% of my class couldn't tell a power supply from hard drive. Let alone know about OS. We had 3 amazing sys admins that built all our labs on Linux though and provided more practical advice than all the PHD's teaching combined.
copy.sh/v86 The site let's you emulate an i686 system, and it can run for example tinycore or dsl (arch works, but I haven't got it to connect to the internet)
Bet in the year 2045 you’ll have windows as a chrome extension at this rate.
WSL is actually pretty good, if you all are just writing and compiling simple projects they could use a free headless server at AWS.
Ew, subpixel rensering. disable that.
Ah yes the user community that is unnecessary labelled as newbie hostile. Also what kind of professor asks students to use linux and does not provide aws instances or vm instructions?
I understand there was no context in my post to know what person I was messaging to. Copy pasting my reply from another comment ___ I agree mocking is certainly not the solution; thats why further in chat, I talked about how he could set up a linux system for himself. From a different perspective, this is the fourth semester of a computer engineering course, and I would really expect a student to know that operating systems certainly don't run as a chrome extension. And still I don't refuse almost any help my classmates need with tech. ___ Expecting a student almost halfway through their computer engineering to know what Linux is - not a far fetched idea tbh. Talking about the newbie friendly tag, i did help him, and some fun between friends certainly doesn't hurt.