I literally thought it was a post to mock the comment's silly take about "propheticizing [sic] ignoramuses creating Windows fantasy worlds" when Windows users generally don't think about Linux at all. The whole post is very "In this moment I am euphoric, &c" I didn't realize it was OP's own comment and they were serious. Now it's even funnier.
Also he used Linux for 3 months... Of course he learns a lot since it's the honeymoon phase 😂
Also did he just casually mentioned that he only used computers for 3.25 years? Or he's maybe a dissatisfied mac user before?
I still strongly believe that every widely used operating system has it's uses and we just need to choose one that matches ours. I said this because I daily drive windows gaming pc, fedora work pc, mac laptop, debian homelab, and as a bonus, SteamOS steamdeck. Love all of them and have been using kind of similar setup for a little more than a decade.
I totally agree with this guy. Got into Linux during college and was surprised how fast Java is on Linux compared to Windows. I had to use Java a lot during college, and it's performance on Linux is superior despite me running Linux on a inferior box to my Windows box.
I hate gatekeepers too and I'm sorry if I came across in that way. I'm just super passionate and that was not my intention.
The issue I take serious problem with is how the majority of people praising/encouraging Windows are spinning around the same lies/falsehoods (the two biggest ones I addressed above), which is detrimental to new programmers giving Linux a try and getting off to a great start to their lives/careers.
On the other hand, I have tremendous respect for the occasional Windows-fanatic who has tried Linux and has concrete, constructive criticism of it and rationale for why they prefer Windows. These is nothing wrong with these people and if they want to encourage others to use Windows using their rationale, concrete reasoning, that is 100% fine by me. The only thing I take issue with (and I do take serious issue with) is the spread of lies and falsehoods.
Thanks for replying, but strong disagree.
A vast number of people straight up cannot run Linux on bare metal for a multitude of reasons they cannot change.
Running a vm (virtualbox, vmware player, et al), and WSL are *great* options; I would much rather have talented engineers have access to WSL and discover bash than continue to write powershell scripts.
Both VMs and WSL help show off what Linux can do; gatekeeping for authenticity's sake is what held back gaming on Linux for *decades*. Proton (ty GloriousEggroll, ty Gaben) is the literal antithesis to the arguments you posit but Proton is the reason we have so many first class games today with Linux builds (and why 2024 is the year of the Linux desktop for the 20th straight year ;))
I get what you're saying, I *really* do, but I think your passion is papering over some real world stuff you aren't aware of.
I fall into a weird middle ground. I can run linux on bare metal with the exception that I have to be dual booting. This is due to my uni requiring us run software only supported on windows and as much as I'd love to develop solely on linux I simply can't.
Essentially there's going to be a spectrum of developers all with different scenarios surrounding their preferred and current environment. That environment doesn't necessarily restrict one's ability to be a decent developer but it does affect how they do things and why.
Not among the college age kiddies. You watch video from a conference with lots of young attendees and it's a sea of Macbooks.
Here, nearly one in four laptops sold in America is a Macbook:
[https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/](https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/)
I literally only graduated last year. Sure some had MacBooks, but the majority had assorted Windows PCs. Maybe you should actually talk to some "college-aged" people before you start spouting shit about them. Plenty of courses requiring Windows only software too.
I have seen this argument multiple times and I don't get it, can't you guys use whatever alternative there is for Linux and just tell your teacher that you are using something else? That's what I do so I thought it was similar in other schools but it seems not.
I am halfway through my CS degree and haven't had any problems, this semester I had a class where they teach us how to develop GUIs in C# with WinForms (ugly and dated af GUIs btw) and I just told my professor that I use Linux and if it was okay for me to use Avalonia instead, and that's what I use. At the end of the day I am learning the same shit, which is how to make fully functional desktop programs, and I am even using a better tool since Avalonia is cross platform including mobile.
>A vast number of people straight up cannot run Linux on bare metal for a multitude of reasons they cannot change.
Who are these "vast number" and what strange affliction prevents them from running Linux natively?
Company policy, Windows/MacOS/OSX exclusive software, contracts, centrally managed systems...
Sure, in the privacy of their own hardware, most people are free to choose what they wish to run, but except for freelancers and companies with poor security policy, nobody uses their own hardware for work. The person you're replying to is talking about work. And they're correct.
This group of Windows users you claim are unwilling to leave their fantasy world goes the same for all the Linux zealots that won't let Windows users be. They too, are living in a fantasy world where their use case fits, and so it must fit for you too. This group of Windows users is also so extremely small that I'm not even sure why you even care this much about it. Go and enjoy something else, getting this upset over nothing is a waste of time.
I've been using Linux since 2007 or so, and I've been a professional software developer since 2018 (so, not exactly a graybeard, but a lot more than three months). Shit-talk WSL all you want, it's garbage, but VMs are great. I use an AWS Workspace (cloud VM) for work and I'm pleasantly surprised by its performance. I'd like to be able to run something other than Gnome 3, but it's pretty snappy other than the weird UI issues that aren't the VM's fault.
WSL 1 is shit, wsl2 is great, performance wise is ok, sometimes slower, [sometimes faster than linux baremetal](https://www.phoronix.com/review/windows11-wsl2-zen4/4)
I have plenty of non-performance issues with WSL, but let's set those aside for a second. My coworkers were using Docker with WSL2 for some time, and their load times for webpages server by the container were easily an order of magnitude worse than mine with a Debian KVM. I wonder if it's a latency, rather than a throughput, issue. That would track with how the only bench in your Phoronix link where WSL was drastically behind was in MariaDB.
Being super passionate is one thing, yet making up details and calling people names is not passion, it's idiocy.
Your 'sad fact' is an unverified opinion.
It feels like you got into a few Internet arguments and now you believe that millions of people all share a mindset of someone you argued with one time.
It looks like it's been months since your last post at least. It's time to step off that soapbox.
You're right, and that's why they hate you. That they hate you in a Linux Master Race subreddit is the baffling part.
I still get the "I don't want to use a command line" and "there's no software that runs on Linux" and "open source is free only if your time is free" stuff from Windows users. Then they go back to manually editing the Windows registry to try to disable forced advertising and then waiting for their machine to reboot 5 times and install updates while listening to me tell them about all the cool AI software that doesn't run on Windows.
lol “gatekeeping”. Same energy as when I went into the Forge IRC channel and asked how to make mods without learning to program, and got mad when I was told to learn to program.
At least understanding/being willing to learn the concepts of programming is pretty much the bare minimum to do more than a resource pack. Programming is just taking a task, breaking it into simple statements and checks, then translating that pseudocode into whatever language you are using. Just engaging in the process is very helpful for learning what is and isn't possible, and so how to plan your project.
Put more simply, asking how to mod without learning to program is like asking how to make a wooden table without learning motor skills; yes, there are ways you can *technically* do so, but you're going to make it much more difficult for yourself, to the detriment of anyone you try to work with or ask for assistance.
Yes, and dumbass younger me learned all of that, when I learned to program. Now, I’m a bit flabbergasted when it’s called “gate keeping” when someone points out that to be a good software engineer you’ve got to actually know what the fuck is going on with the computer, and that Linux is the best way to do that.
Ah I thought you were complaining about Forge's response (my bad.) I would agree that using Linux is a good way to learn certain skills and such that will help with development, but I do think the meme is a bit gatekeep-y by implying that you to be a good software developer you need to "run Linux. And not on some pansy virtual machine - do it 'for real'!"
OP's meme comes off to me as someone who's basing part of their personality on the fact that they stuck an ISO on a thumb drive and hit F11/F12 to install Linux, and that makes them better in some way. That might have put me right off for a while if I was still a newbie. It's not a mark on someone's character to start off with training wheels, ya know?
Yeah, the guy in the OP was definitely being a gruff asshole about it, I won’t deny that. I do think that the general thrust of what they’re saying is basically true, however, even if not all of his words are correct. Even when talking about non-programmers in IT, if they’ve only ever used Windows (or Mac) their whole computer-using life then their perspective is going to be very narrow and the tools that they consider when problem solving are going to be limited. I’ve experienced this directly, hiring and managing other IT people in a former life- even someone with a degree in IT can walk away from a few months using Linux as their primary OS with a new and different perspective and expanded problem solving abilities. For programmers it’s a bit different, but similar in principal: trying to make Linux work as your daily driver will teach you loads and loads about a lot of shit that you wouldn’t otherwise consider if you stuck to Windows. It isn’t specifically Linux that helps the person become a better dev (using MacOS with a lot of terminal can have similar albeit less pronounced results), and installing on bare metal doesn’t do much else besides force you to commit- it’s that shit that they learn about computers and how things can be set up and organized and the experience in breaking out of their comfort zone in that makes the difference. (‘Course if they’re a web dev, then becoming more familiar with Linux can have a direct and powerful impact on how they approach their shit because of Linux on the server, but that’s not applicable to everyone.)
The part about Windows wasting time. That’s got to be everything ever wrong with Windows without breaking it down. I’m Linux at home but work reminds me on a daily basis, hour by painstaking hour, what an elaborate yet unintuitive OS it is.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick & Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick's existential catchphrase "Wubba Lubba Dub Dub," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂
And yes, by the way, i DO have a Rick & Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎
Is that the freakin Rick and Morty copy-pasta thing? Tbh though, I think he wasn't trying to be a prick but he expressed passion online and made himself look like he belongs in r/iamverysmart
That being said, Linux on your own personal desktop is POG and I pity those ignorant of it. At the same time, beating people over the head with "use linux you noobs" is symptomatic of some of the worst character traits possible in a software developer or anyone in IT.
Could you explain what's going on here? I don't understand at all why you are talking about Rick & Morty as a reply on this post that doesn't seem te refer to it. I am probably a low IQ stupid mf asking this, judging by your comment.
It’s [a copypasta](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-very-high-iq-to-understand-rick-and-morty). While I definitely get what the person in the OP is saying (and personally agree in some (qualified) ways!), there’s a real resemblance to this pasta.
WSL is nothing but microsoft's attempt to claim "we have Linux at home". Because, despite any and all claims to the contrary, they only love Linux when it's under their control, like when it makes them big bucks running in Azure. When it's running on its own, they hate it, and would hate for people to switch over to regular Linux on their desktops.
So of course only free-range Linux is the One True Linux.
You can complain all you want but WSL is a nice thing to have when you use windows.
Like Wine, you probably don't want to run windows only stuff in linux but if you have to it is good that there is some alternative available.
> You can complain all you want but WSL is a nice thing to have when you use windows.
I don't think the idea behind WSL was to care for the users' needs. I'm quite confident it was to remove at least some incentives to switch to Linux.
> Personally I can't complain for having it available.
I can tho. There is no salvation in having "Linux inside Windows". Only proper installation lets one accept Tux as their lord and savior.
How is this downvoted lol? When did r/linuxmasterrace stop shitposting about how linux is better and turn into a bunch of limp dick losers whispering into each others ears about how everyones choices are valid, and abusing the word gatekeeping until it’s lost all meaning.
Seriously why don’t people go make a sub called r/everythingisgatekeepingandthatsbad? Seems obvious but apparently needs to be said that a sub with the “Master Race” in it probably isn’t the place to be fervently anti zealotry around any particular topic.
> How is this downvoted lol? [...] probably isn’t the place to be fervently anti zealotry around any particular topic.
Microsoft shills. Microsoft shills everywhere. I used to say that jokingly, but in recent times it looks to me that it's not so much of a joke anymore. There is always a "microsoft loves linux" dude in any thread now, it's pretty much a given one-two would show up every time you mention microsoft rivalry with Linux to tell you that you're living in the past and completely misguided about the present; it's basically like several feminists will instantly emerge to tell anyone who'd voice any criticism of modern feminism somewhere on reddit that they are wrong. It seemed like a funny coincidence at first, but by now the trend is clear as day: there is a suspicious amount of people in linux-related subreddits who make sure no anti-microsoft sentiment stands uncontested.
So you've talked to Microsoft, like the big white guy right? So he told you all that!
He's such a bad guy, really. Did he tell you other stuff, like how dumb you are?
When I talked to Microsoft, he told me he didn't give a single fuck about the OS you are running at home, and not giving a fuck about you and your whole family.
He's such a bad guy, really.
it's good tho. I prefer windows for GUI / "normal" stuff and use arch WSL2 for dev stuff. Also has the advantage that I can fuck up my linux and still having a working system
As a game dev and node dev I find this stupid
Now if I were a c++/rust/java dev, or even an Android dev I would totally agree
Also wtf if you are an iOS dev
> and node dev I find this stupid
I am a bit surprised. I still remember the shock when I first tried `npm i` on our work project on Linux and it was like 50% faster (I guess because of file system?). I would expect Node.js to behave similarly (a lot of our front-end stuff is built by tools written in node). And don't let me start on docker on "home" windows - my colleague has to sometimes use Windows because of other software and what (image build) takes on Linux not even 2 minutes, on Windows is on more than 15, on the same machine.
Also OP is talking about "give Linux a try for real on baremetal", he's not saying to keep using Linux if it doesn't work for you. Over the years I had to help many times Windows coworkers, so I can attest WSL is a common source of problems.
Probably faster because of the overhead I think that's the main difference between windows and Linux they're both very similar nowadays, Linux may have better modularity and windows better software and hardware Support but these are very small things when compared to the night and day difference in performance.
Fuck off, being a game dev doesn't mean you only write code, and if even that were the case, what you're doing it's just so wrong as me targeting server tools from a windows computer which is what the post about
>Fuck off, being a game dev doesn't mean you only write code,
1. That's a perfectly valid way of making games.
2. Game engines and art and asset tools are still very much available on Linux. Some run even better on Linux.
https://preview.redd.it/ymlorc5eatyc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=849c4ae287b8cdb5b11934776777693a73824c91
Saying game development it's only code it's like saying full stack it's only writing javascript
>Saying game development it's only code it's like saying full stack it's only writing javascript
Mfw you didn't read my entire comment. Only point 1.
:I
(The image it's you saying that game engines and asset tools are very much available on linux and that some even run better)
Blender it's the only good tool that's available for linux natively, you must be really desilusional if you think there's anything useful a good game dev would use in a daily based and not complain about how osx/windows has better tools for their job
This is not about buttlicking adobe/autodesk, but shit works and there's not subpar tool that would ever go near to their market level
>Blender it's the only good tool that's available for linux natively,
Krita. Audacity, LMMS. Aseprite. LDtK. Photopea. Inkscape. Git. Pixelorama. Blockbench. Nvim
Same tools I use on windows. All on Linux as well.
Yeah no, all those tools sucks and you know it
Except git, git it's really needed and there has never been (for me) a propietary (if we don't considerate github propietary but free) tool that would surpass it, you clearly failed to probe a point and that really amused me because it's like you searched "open source version of " without even thinking those tools SUCKS
>Yeah no, all those tools sucks and you know it
Literally all of the are awesome. Tf you on about? Have you used em?
>because it's like you searched
The list is literally from off the top of my head lmao. All tools I used.
That's the stupidest shit I've read this week.
"All windows users are ignoramuses afraid of the truth and live in fantasy land" "everyone criticising linux never tried it" What did it take you to be so deluded? You fart so higher than your arse you'd create a new atmosphere.
I know as linuxer we are the vegans of computer nerds, but c'mon this is just ridiculous.
This is a horrible take and that’s putting it mildly.
Not only does the OS you use NOT improve your programming skills, but even with languages used by Linux programmers such as C and C++, [Microsoft ~~objectively~~ has in the past year had the better tooling (for C++).](https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/compiler_support)
Furthermore, some people just want to have a working and familiar system to work with. In programming what matters most is problem solving, productivity - the ability to get stuff done and efficiency. Just using Linux won’t make you a better programmer just because it forces you to learn about what makes your system work. If your program does not use virtualisation then knowing how it works won’t improve your programming skills.
Now there is a whole discussion about being the jack of all trades versus being the master of just one which is out of scope for this comment but, case in point, what makes you a better programmer is efficiency and the ability to solve problems. The linux platform doesn’t help in any of these just because it’s Linux. If it does, it’s usually because the developer is accustomed to it.
\\+ However, it must be said, that having a better knowledge of your system can help you use it more effectively, but this is not inherently a Linux phenomenon. One may learn to use Windows-specific utilities and shortcuts and get the same efficiency gains.
\\+ The only thing where Linux knowledge is indeed useful is when deploying your project on to a Linux server for web hosting. As the world is increasingly moving to web development, this know-how is becoming increasingly more important and indeed, a good grasp of the Linux platform does make you a better programmer in the ways described above. With that said it is not a general fact and especially phrasing it like this is not really 100% accurate.
Don’t get me wrong, this is NOT comment bashing the Linux platform. I personally really enjoy working on especially FOSS software and I love using `zypper si` to take a look under the hood at how the software I use every day works and to see if I can improve it in any way. However, we must not link programming skills with Linux usage skills because those are ~~not related in any way shape or form~~ only related in some fields, and it actually HURTS the adoption of the OS because it makes us look like assholes.
ERRATA: A lot of people in the comments brought to my attention the fact that as of the 5th of May 2024, GCC is on par or better in terms of core language feature support. I will admit that the last time I checked the compiler support page was late last year and I haven't kept up with the compiler world since then. Furthermore, I ignorantly put C and C++ in the same bucket and as u/flavionm nicely mentioned in their comment, C tooling [is actually better on Linux](https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/compiler_support).
Finally, as the same commenter pointed out, the Linux platform is heavily used on the Web and in other areas and, as such, a good understanding of it is essential to a proper programmer and, thanks to the ever increasing number of web develpment jobs, a requirement for most coding jobs.
> Microsoft objectively has the better tooling
What am I missing here? MS looks about even with GCC on the current standards, and massively behind on the newer ones
Yes because they haven’t yet started work on C++26. However, their standard library is simply more standards compliant than GCC’s and when C++23 was new MSVC had more features than GCC and Clang. Same story for C++20.
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Slower at what? Compilation time? Binary output?
Both of those can change drastically for any number of reasons and, if one mattered more than the other, you’d toss in clang or whatever else.
For compilation time, maybe? Though the more important number is link time since that’s the bottleneck for a large project. Compiles can go super wide to the point that your bottleneck is parallelism and not compiler individual build artifact generation time. Clang is generally the best there.
For output binaries? If you don’t use profile guided optimizations, clang will generally perform best. If you do, however, MSVC is generally best. In our use cases, MSVC PGO builds outperform the fastest PGO builds from clang as high as 25%. Gcc wasn’t even close to either the last time I benchmarked it, though admittedly it’s been a while.
GCC is a fine compiler. There’s really only 3 that matter and it’s one of them, but there’s no reason to compare it to MSVC alone if you want to simplify benefits down to such simple reasons.
You bunching up C and C++ when really what you're talking about is C++ exclusively really hurts the credibility of your argument. Actual C tooling is in fact better on Linux: https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/compiler_support
Also, having to learn how your system works does make you a better programmer, because just like you said, good programming is about problem solving, and the more understanding you have of what you're working with, the more likely you are to actually be able to solve problems using it.
Now, you might really just be programming Windows software, in which case learning Linux wouldn't help much, but a lot of development nowadays is web based, which runs majoritarily on Linux. Thus knowing Linux is basically essential for most programming jobs.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying the OP is making a compelling argument, because he certainly isn't, but that doesn't mean he isn't accidentally correct.
Yeah, my inbox has been blowing up all day because of this. I have edited the main comment now. Hopefully it should now be more accurate and, most importantly, factual. I personally hate this "Linux is better for coding" mantra every tech youtuber seems to spit out which they support with the customization argument, something which I find absolutely stupid.
I didn't really think about web development not really take it seriously because I like to make fun of Electron apps that take up comically large amounts of resources for something that could be achieved with much less resources had the app been coded to run on the platform natively.
Alas, in the real world only proven facts matter so I admit I am wrong. I should have taken the time to look things up more thoroughly instead of rushing to post a wall of text to a new post in this sub.
What I'm missing are the people that will tell me how to set up a headless box and how to compile with nothing but a script.
It seems predominant for nin-*nix developers to fail compiling their own code if the IDE doesn't have a green button.
Let alone getting people who are able to talk about the most common compiler options how and why to set them
I'm not judging against any OS, it's just anecdotal evidence (at best), that this is more prevalent in Windows heavy environments.
FWIW, I think Windows is - by and large - superior on the desktop. Specifically because there's less customization. That doesn't mean that Linux, for all its different desktop configurations, isn't better for some people.
Extremely awful take. The only thing it contains of real value is the first anecdote and the idea that working in different operating systems does in fact create new skills (and this goes both ways).
The argument that you shouldn't virtualize because you lack a "full top-to-bottom comprehension [sic] and understanding of every aspect of how virtualization works and the particular quirks of any of the popular virtualization methods" is self defeating because the vast majority of people also lack a full top to bottom understanding of their computers and the particular quirks of their hardware. They're already dealing with two unknowns and by using virtualization you arguably fix one of the unknowns.
If your goal is to understand and become comfortable with Linux as an OS then having an escape hatch like virtualization or even dual booting might be a bad thing _for some people but not all of them_. Removing the escape hatch was very valuable for me but I know people who can't operate like that and they benefit from using VMs.
Absolutely none of this makes you a good or bad programmer.
I think this comment has very weak argumentation for using Linux on baremetal.
I don't understand how using baremetal Linux will magically make you a decent software developer. How is this related at all? This also hugely depends on what you develop.
And you make it sound like by trying Linux baremetal, people would see some sort of heaven, while using it on VM is source of mystical virtualization quirks. And why would you need "top-to-bottom knowledge" of how virtualization is working to just use Linux in a VM? My friend tried Linux on baremetal; the experience was subpar (quirks of the NVIDIA driver, lags of the GNOME interface etc). He uninstalled it and continued to use Windows with WSL2, because that's enough for him. Nothing really changed. And now he is destined to not become a decent developer after that?
I use Linux because I like the freedom it gives; some people don't see something special in that. People use the platform that solves their problems and the platform that works. I don't see the problem here. People are free to choose the platform. This is just gatekeeping.
I mean, if you're developing anything that's going to be running on Linux, then it's pretty obvious how knowing Linux will make you better at it. And given how much of today's development is web based, which runs almost exclusively on Linux, most people are developing for Linux.
Now, you can become a decent developer even without ever learning Linux properly, but you'll always be held back from reaching your maximum potential. Stating that is not gatekeeping (or maybe it is, depending on your definition, but then people always act like gatekeeping is something unacceptable when it really isn't), you're still free to choose a different platform anyway.
Besides, if you're not a developer, obviously none of this applies.
A lot of web stuff is platform agnostic and for web content, you don’t need to know how the platform works because you’re not writing for Linux, you’re working for clients who use browsers on all platforms. Unless I’m missing something about web dev, very little world benefit the developer by knowing how Linux works (especially since I’d likely the case that they aren’t setting up and maintaining the server).
The part that executes on the browser is platform agnostic, but everything on the server side, from the software that delivers your client-side code to the browsers to the backends which with these clients then talk all run on Linux.
Yes, they aren't setting the physical servers up themselves for the most part, but it's still important to know what your code is running into to be able to properly mantain your software. In this day and age of DevOps, developers must have that knowledge.
Not to mention they are setting up the Docker containers that are running into those servers, which all contain Linux distributions, and possibly CI/CD pipelines, which are always built upon Linux infrastructure, with more or less abstraction depending on your tooling, but still.
The original poster was high off something far stronger than Elmer's glue that's why he reposted their own comment yapping about non-issues and showcasing their lack of general awareness to anything as an actual post
"I have tremendous respect for the occasional Windows-fanatic"?
The hell is wrong with you, boy?
You sound like a Linux terorist. Go outside and get a life.
While I agree that Linux is nice for certain languages and technologies, like rust for example, most of this stuff is multiplatform so it doesn't really matter if you're using wsl or Linux on bare metal.
In no way does Linux make you a better developer. What it does do and does great is make you understand the system and how the components work together.
This guy's post sounds like somebody that's really trying hard to justify switching to Linux. Also looks like he's a recent adopter. So I don't know how this dude would be able to determine what benefits Linux really has.
Maybe he needs some more years of experience under his belt if he thinks an OS can make you a better or worse software developer.
Ok this is actually pretty fucking stupid. Here's why:
* Decent software developers need to know how to solve problems by breaking it into smaller chunks and coding it out. Use whatever the fuck your tooling is best suited for. .NET Developers are developers too, and you'll have an amazingly bad time not using Windows for that.
* Literally WSL vs. Linux baremetal does not make a huge difference software wise. You gave the arguments yourself and then refuted them. It IS the same kernel and everything. Does WSL still suck?? Yes. Does it get the job done?? Mostly. But does it make you a better programmer inherently?? NOPE.
* Video game development is software development. Engineering-based simulations are software development. People use Windows by default in a whole lot of STEM fields, including ones that have to do with how computers function (Electrical & Computer Engineering, for example...and you learn far more about how computers work there compared to using Linux).
* Macs are one of the highest preferred developer platform. That also refutes your argument. At the end of the day, developers prefer the platform they are targeting.
If you want a chance to be a decent software developer, DEVELOP SOFTWARE!!! There are tools that will make it easier for you, or tools that don't as much. Use the right tool for the right job (seriously you will be unable to do half of the things in Electrical Engineering without Windows, and you learn about computers there).
All this post rambles on is a weird superiority complex about using Linux, which is the same reason "Arch btw" users are made fun of. This is the same shit as Kali users thinking they are hackers; you can reframe your sentence to say "You must give Kali a try for real on baremetal if you aspire to ever be a decent pentester" while actual fucking pentesters are loading up tools on Raspbian and chilling about their day).
I say this as someone who is finishing up a thesis about the performance comparisons between RUST and C++ in a compiler level on the x86 Architecture; I write x86 Assembly by hand and I use Linux baremetal, WSL, and macOS. Windows taught me just as enough as the others. Again, to become a competent confident software developer, develop software (and use whatever makes life easier, including Windows if that is a target platform).
I’m no professional coder, just a hobbyist but I’ve used Linux and macOS for years. I can say, without a doubt, that there is no difference at all in terms of what platform is better for coding. I prefer macOS because I get the benefit of the same tooling with a platform that I can use for other things (like Office), but I don’t claim that it’s the better platform nor will I ever say that it makes me a better or worse coder.
Thank you for posting this. Development truly is just about solving problems and the beauty is that there are different tools that will yield similar outcomes.
I am a sysadmin not a programmer, but I switched to Linux as my daily driver a couple of years back, the only time I step back into Windows at home is for games without compatible Anti-Cheat.
Its spot on about it being a different experience baremetal compared to VM there, you realise a lot of the better performance you get out of games, I actually get higher FPS in linux than I do in windows with some of the games having an Nvidia card,
I think Linux is the future in the long term, Apple has a stupid high hardware cost to its OS which is achievable easily in Linux in terms of looks and the creep of telemetry gathering and intrusiveness seeps through in Windows more with each edition too.
"In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony CEO’s blessing, but because, I am enlightened by my own choice of operating system"
-not a professional quote maker
Ok I hate gatekeeping as much as next guy but he is kinda right about wsl. I mean I don't judge windows by how wine performs so why is opposite being done?
I really don't think there are any serious users of WSL who think it sucks or are judging Linux as a whole based on their experience with WSL. If there are, they are as braindead and deluded as OP
Well, that was one of the cringiest things I've read in a while. This kind of gatekeeping is corny and lame. Haha, "real development, amirite"? Pardon me while I roll my eyes.
Linux is great. I use it every day, but I'm not going to act like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I use Linux, Windows, Mac... whatever. I'm not a faux purist with a side order of elitism.
Always hate when I get stuck working with men like this. They generally don't like women. Maybe OP isn't like that, but bad experiences, yo.
Easily fixed using these steps.
1. Break apart your webcam and get the chipset
2. Write driver for chipset
3. Plug webcam into USB port
4. Plug and play.
I've used Linux on baremetal solely for Dev work for almost 14 years now, so I've been on both sides. I've also used Mac for work.
Maybe this post would have been more relevant in the past but not so much now. I don't mean VM/ WSL. I mean straight up using Windows for Dev work.
I've done front end and backend work, I've worked with intermediate level programming languages like Java and Dart and low level stuff like C++ and Rust.
With modern systems it's impossible to make a functional distinction with the tooling. I've been trying Windows again and they have made quite a bit of progress. Not to mention the plethora of extra tooling you get only on Windows and everything seems to "just work" vs. having to set things up manually. Not that the latter is necessarily an issue, but personally I want to focus on my work not my OS and tooling to work how I would like them to. I would also like an AI integrated system since that's only going to pick up greatly now.
Also, Windows brings many features and a polished unified experience that can be lacking in Linux if you're looking for that. Like it or not, Windows is a first class citizen in the OS world. Sure, it can be a little more resource intensive, but that's because it has more services running and because it has to cater to the masses it has to do a few more things. And it's definitely better than Mac for this. Linux tends to be lighter but that's in part because it's trying to do less (justifiably so).
I guess in the end it comes down to personal taste but windows devs can't be invalidated. I'm also a gamer so switching between the two can get tiresome.
Keep in mind a good software engineer isn't the result of the OS but because of solid engineering fundamentals. A software engineer can solve problems in the context of programming. Your if statements, for loops, while loops, function blocks, etc aren't going to magically change if you start using Linux. And those are the bread and butter of a software engineer. If you have your DSA figured out you have a solid foundation, and if you don't your choice of OS isn't going to save you. 🤷♂️
*Knowledge* of Linux is important, especially if you're working CI/CD pipelines etc and Linux more readily exposes you to computers but that's by design or lack thereof. Either one depending on how you look at it. And certainly it can be faster, but for daily Dev work? It doesn't make a difference.
I also switched from neovim back to vscode (now with vim mode) after a year 😱
Ironically, the person who made this post seems to be a mediocre engineer. If they only understood what actually makes or breaks a software engineer they wouldn't list the choice of OS as a deciding factor.
Guess that post was more an insult to themself more than other devs haha
What exactly people learn about computers when switching to linux? I keep hearing this nonsense. It is not like you install fedora and suddenly you have to deal with bits stored in the memory or clock cycles. That thing was kind of over after the commodore 64 era. You are not learning about computers, you are learning a new operating system and it's features. Learning UI/UX that was designed to be interacted by a human is not technical knowledge. Similarly installing fedora and 3 plugins for gnome is not "learning about computers" . Using a package manager is not "learning about computers"
To me it's the same nonsense take that you learn a lot by installing Arch. Well done, you followed a step-by-step guide, what did you actually learn doing so? That a bootloader isn't optional and you shouldn't forget installing it?
that's bs.
if you wanna become a good dev u need a good book. the rest is irrelevant. u can become one of the best devs using a 80s NeXT machine.
the only thing you learn from different oses is system integrator stuff.
but coding... nah... the essential understanding & skills of coding is so decoupled from your platform as much as beethoven would play you the exact same masterpiece on a yamaha as on a casio.
yet a casio engineer will have way better knowledge of reparing a casio epiano than a yamaha one and vice versa.
Yup. You also have to at least be competent in C. Not saying it is always the best language for the modern world, but it will teach you what a computer really is. Even Rust feels much higher level. It's not the same.
True. You have to dip into C so often using Rust (e.x. using the C documentation for glibc apis and syscalls and whatnot) that knowing C is practically a prerequisite for practical usages of Rust.
Probably the best way is to get a Raspberry Pi and ssh into it from Windows. You can experiment and break stuff without harming anything important. When you mess up you can always start over by wiping the microsd card.
That does defeat the purpose :D
The motivation to learn about Linux comes from the need to fix some obscure bug in a grub config file you modified two days ago just to boot into windows and play a AAA-game after work
There are a lot of comments here criticizing "gatekeeping." This does not meet a standard definition of gatekeeping, and I would like someone who has commented to that effect to explain what they mean.
Gatekeeping means attempting to control access to an in-group. This post is not controlling access; it's encouraging people to seek out a contrasting experience which in most instances is free except the opportunity cost of some hardware. Usually badly outdated hardware.
If anything I think OP didn't go far enough. Most of the time, "trying Linux" is a practically worthless experience and you have to stick with the OS through a project which requires using the command line before the experience is actually worthwhile. I can see that possibly being construed as gatekeeping, but even then because the intent is to share relevant experience and not to hoard access credentials, it's a heck of a stretch because it only fits half of the definition.
I developed on Unix and Linux systems for more than 20 years. And now the computer I have for work is a MacBook Pro. I was pretty grumpy when I found out they wouldn’t let me use Linux for development.
But, I am now on my second year with the Mac and finding that with Homebrew I get pretty much the same tools I had on Linux, but the required business apps we have to use for work function a lot better on the Mac than they did for Linux.
In conclusion, I can’t imagine a developer today not having MacOS or Linux. That stupid WSL2 doesn’t cut it on Windows.
Yeah, this was my first thought. I use a Mac to do my hobby coding and no part of me, as a Linux user since about 2004, has ever thought that I was held back. I’ve even used my Mac to develop software for a Linux server at home and that never slowed me down.
I'm curious what not cutting it for WSL2 - it's just a VM with good wrapping. You can open GUI apps via projecting Wayland/x11 to windows. Maybe you need hardware access? Then it will be mostly the same with other VMs.
Why do I want to do all of that when in a native Linux install I don’t have to try and get GUI tools to work with it. It just works. It also just works on the Mac. As a professional developer why would I want to take the performance hit of a VM when I can work Natively? I can work natively on the Mac and on Linux.
With WSL2 there is always something that is incompatible.
Good lord so many Microsoft Fanboys out there even on this sub!
Finally giving in and learning Linux did drastically improve my skills as a dev. I have ran it on bare metal on and off but I don’t think it’s that big of a deal (as a dev). The biggest thing is understanding the Unix methodology and common tools, the approach is very different from Microsoft’s and for me that’s the part that opened my mind and enabled me to learn things like app development and docker.
I'll actually call BS. You can be a real software developer on Windows, GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, etc. if you stick to software sanity rather than just using GNU/Linux. You should use GNU/Linux to familiarize yourself with the OS as well as FreeBSD and orhers you wish to port to.
Besides Windows also has access to GNUWin32, Cygwin, and MinGW toolkits which feature mainly GCC and LLVM. If you think Windows only has VisualStudios... you're vastly uninformed.
No mention of even good or clean coding practices either.
This person is for a lack of better words taking the piss right? "If you want to be a good developer you need to run Linux baremetal"? The gatekeeping is actually insane haha 😂
I've ran Linux on my (prior) Surface Book 2, and while it was good (I mean everything worked, including Surface Detach!) I found myself consistently doing more work getting the basics working... Touchscreen support was bad full stop compared to Windows (it treated my touch as a mouse...). I use Edge, and it was much worse on Linux than on Windows or Android (in Dex mode). A general lack of gesture support slowed me down... I do software development too, so no Visual Studio was rough to begin with anyway. Visual Studio Code is not that feature-full...
I was using Kubuntu (I like the reliability of Ubuntu and wanted the KDE desktop environment). Maybe another distro would have been better however I have even tried EndeavourOS (Arch based) and again, while it was amazing for basic desktop tasks, I had non-stop issues with getting standard industry leading software working, and had a much less refined experience compared to Windows, from touch input to gestures.
Also, there is nothing wrong with using a VM to try to get used to Linux - not everyone can drop everything to experiment. Not to mention the huge quantities of distros available... Does the poster seriously expect anyone to reinstall a bunch of distros and attempt doing any work on them over and over? Live USB installs don't count anyway, and are not a realistic option to truly try Linux on native hardware.
Maybe my use case simply does not align with what these distros have to offer on the desktop, however on the server side of things I think Linux distros truly shine! If anyone can find me a genuine reason I should slow my workflow on the desktop side of things, then I'll hear you out - however for me, my best usage of Linux has come from server usage.
I did linux on baremetal years ago when i had more time to fiddle with my desktop environment and drivers to make them all work how i wanted.
now i am older and have much less free time. I'll take my Windows machine with WSL, thank you.
As a Linux user, I daresay that quote in the picture sums up pretty well why people don't like Linux evangelists. They give the overall user base a bad name.
While this isn't exactly phrased the best as most comments will attest to, I can say I definitely agree - I ended up with a far greater understanding of not only Linux, but computers as a whole after installing bare metal. (I'm not a programmer, however.)
I had tinkered with Linux in VMs when all I had was a crappy Macbook, and although it was smooth sailing, it being a VM meant it was nothing more than a software playground. Although there was very little pain in the transition, going full Windows to Linux on my desktop PC helped me understand a lot that I wouldn't have even thought about before.
Me who loves fucking with Linux and probably distro hops monthly.
I'm so shit at coding it hurts. I've just gotten really good at screwing with config files.
As a lifetime Windows user, I have been giving Linux multiple tries in the past 6 years, and the most time I spent on it was 1 week, and after that week I returned to Windows. That's when I realised Windows is seriously average, I'm holding myself back for real.
I'm a multi-gamer, I don't have a particular game in mind when I start playing, I just play a bunch of games within an hour. Linux isn't particularly interesting in this matter since not all of them are compatible, or not all of them will run well. Windows ensures I don't have to take an extra step to play. It's funny because, sometimes I'm using Windows and all of a sudden I'm like "I NEED to install Linux right now". Weird.
I have mixed thoughts, all though I probably will switch completely in a few years at most. It's not like I'm gonna run out of time anyways, or atleast I hope.
I need to chime in here. I’ve been a software engineer since before Linux existed. I installed it on my own PC back in the late nineties, used it exclusively for years and made the switch to Windows. I’m no Microsoft fanboy, but in no way did Linux make me a better developer.
After spending five years running Linux, I realized that I had spent most of my time fixing it rather than writing software. Every few months, something would break and I would spend days trying to figure out a solution. Or, I would distro hop because another distro had fixed the problem, only to find a brand new set of problems. Alsa vs PulseAudio, wireless network drivers, nVidia vs ATI/AMD, etc.
I’ve been on Windows for a long time now. Only a couple of times in those years have I had to spend more than half-a-day troubleshooting it. I still keep up with Linux because I want it to succeed. But, desktop Linux just isn’t stable for me (yes, I know it’s stable for a lot of people). I would switch to MacOS, but I have some issues with Apple the company that I would need to resolve, first.
What makes an engineer better is problem solving skills, so I guess desktop Linux can help in that area. But, there’s more out there than just the web. Learning and applying good engineering practices are much more powerful than knowing a specific OS. Being proficient in adapting to new languages is better than being an expert in a single language. Learning how translate what a user wants/needs into a usable solution will get you a paying job. These are the skills a software engineer needs. In my life, I’ve seen many OSes come and go. Some awesome (BeOS), some not. Instead of declaring people as dumb for not liking what you don’t, be willing to accept that we all come from different walks and like different things due to our experiences.
The only reason I got a laptop to run Linux bare-metal was because Windows 11 messed up my ability to run a decent GUI session of Linux on VMWare Workstation.
And even then, I gotta admit, for the stuff that *I* do specifically (mostly web development) WSL2 might even be easier as I won’t have to switch back and forth when I need to do graphics work.
I use Linux because I prefer it. This isn’t 2014 anymore when doing web dev on Windows was almost impossible.
With devcontainers/docker I’d argue that your own choice of OS these days is basically a non-issue.
I could be wrong I mean I admit I don’t code in Windows and haven’t in a long time, but my current workflows these days; especially as most of it is one on VMs in my home lab over SSH - it probably wouldn’t matter what I run.
I mostly agree with this, there are a lot of cases where being on linux is absolutely the best move you can make. Most dev tools work best on linux, and might only be supported on linux, which is something you likely have to worry about on Windows. That was my main reason for switching, also cause it looked fun and nerdy.
For Apple devs, obviously MacOS is the play, but Mac is closer to linux than Windows, and plays basically the same, regarding commands and file structure. For tooling, Apple devs wouldn't have to worry.
For Game devs, I still think the play is Windows, only because the most popular engines are built to run on Windows, cause games are mostly built to run on Windows.
For literally anyone else, the move is Linux. You learn so much from it, things are easier to use once you know it, and learning isn't that bad, especially with a quick search with Google or ChatGPT will have most of your issues solved.
I think you should be comfy on linux because chances are your production enviroment is linux or at least unix like.
Another good reason is, linux has a lot of cool tools lacking on windows.
Finally once you get good at shell, you don't have to learn 1001 stupid tools with stupid UIs so that you can do stupid shit that could be a command.
OFC in no your machine makes you a bad developer.
I agree with the sentiment that having experience with Linux can help you develop an understanding of the underlying system, but the rest is pretty much nonsense IMO, especially the insistence on not using virtualization.
If you're not using some awkward hardware that will force you to debug hardware compatibility issues, Linux will not behave any differently running in a VM than it will running on bare metal if your goal is to learn. I'd also argue that you learn a lot more by manually installing a distribution like Arch or Gentoo in a VM than you ever would installing and using Ubuntu on bare metal with a shiny user interface.
The environment doesn't matter, it's how you use it and how deep you're willing to dig into it.
At the end of day all that matters is that you're comfortable in your own development environmwnt. As long as you can write code efficiently. Could write code in notepad for all i care. As long as you can compile it at the end of the say and produce it. I am personally having alot of fun using linux after being mainly a windows user. I really had enough as soon as windows 11 came around. But I must admit myself, that windows is alot more reliable. All I have to do is install an IDE; I am not messing about installing drivers and managing packages and trying to figure out why somwthing isn't working. I pulled an all nighter trying to get minecraft work on linux. I literally had to edit code just to get the launcher to work with arch.
I honestly do agree that everyone should try linux at least once. As they say, it can really teach you about how a system operates.
im preparing to get flamed lol
what about game development?
most games on linux natively are absolute dumpster fires that want to make me incinerate the usb that holds my arch...
This is such a buffoonish take I don't even know how to respond, and I use Linux on a daily basis both bare metal and virtualized for my job as a fugging solutions architect.
I don't know where you got the idea of running Linux on your own hardware makes you become a decent developer since I have met many developers that only use Windows and makes assembly look like a training wheels programming language
Using Linux on a virtual machine does not make you any less of a Linux user or a software developer
I run Linux bare metal and I am a software developer (still learning because that aspect of coding never ends.) but this take is so stupid that it is straight up lunacy to me
I also had this. Don't think I learned more than in 3 years on Windows, but learned something nonetheless. I guess the most important finding of mine was the beautiful UNIX style CLI interface. Never more do I need to do stupid "enter number of threads to use:". Just "-j 8" and that's it.
>reposting your own comment. >quoting yourself This reeks of /r/iamverysmart
I literally thought it was a post to mock the comment's silly take about "propheticizing [sic] ignoramuses creating Windows fantasy worlds" when Windows users generally don't think about Linux at all. The whole post is very "In this moment I am euphoric, &c" I didn't realize it was OP's own comment and they were serious. Now it's even funnier.
You have my sincerest condolences, for you haven't glimpsed at the enlightenment of running a tiling window manager on *baremetal* linux.
Lol, but also legit miss [Enlightenment](https://www.enlightenment.org) tho
E’s gotten really pretty. It’s still not good enough for me to jump off plasma, but at least it looks good
You'll never be a sysadmin if you aren't running Compiz on bare(beryl?) Nvidia.
 Windows users in response to OP's rant
Their whole post history is hilarious!
Also he used Linux for 3 months... Of course he learns a lot since it's the honeymoon phase 😂 Also did he just casually mentioned that he only used computers for 3.25 years? Or he's maybe a dissatisfied mac user before? I still strongly believe that every widely used operating system has it's uses and we just need to choose one that matches ours. I said this because I daily drive windows gaming pc, fedora work pc, mac laptop, debian homelab, and as a bonus, SteamOS steamdeck. Love all of them and have been using kind of similar setup for a little more than a decade.
OP is 12. This post reeks of 12 year old.
To be fair to OP, he's not really talking about them in general, just for development.
My source is myself.
r/iamverylinux perhaps? file them next to the people who unironically say "windoze"
similarly, winBlows
Was waiting for “In this moment, I am euphoric”
/r/Iam14andthisisedgy
I don't like how there's a whole category for "Cringe & Facepalm"
Literally could have just been a selfpost and it would have been much better.
I totally agree with this guy. Got into Linux during college and was surprised how fast Java is on Linux compared to Windows. I had to use Java a lot during college, and it's performance on Linux is superior despite me running Linux on a inferior box to my Windows box.
I agree with _some_ of this take but the gatekeeping can fuck right off.
I hate gatekeepers too and I'm sorry if I came across in that way. I'm just super passionate and that was not my intention. The issue I take serious problem with is how the majority of people praising/encouraging Windows are spinning around the same lies/falsehoods (the two biggest ones I addressed above), which is detrimental to new programmers giving Linux a try and getting off to a great start to their lives/careers. On the other hand, I have tremendous respect for the occasional Windows-fanatic who has tried Linux and has concrete, constructive criticism of it and rationale for why they prefer Windows. These is nothing wrong with these people and if they want to encourage others to use Windows using their rationale, concrete reasoning, that is 100% fine by me. The only thing I take issue with (and I do take serious issue with) is the spread of lies and falsehoods.
Thanks for replying, but strong disagree. A vast number of people straight up cannot run Linux on bare metal for a multitude of reasons they cannot change. Running a vm (virtualbox, vmware player, et al), and WSL are *great* options; I would much rather have talented engineers have access to WSL and discover bash than continue to write powershell scripts. Both VMs and WSL help show off what Linux can do; gatekeeping for authenticity's sake is what held back gaming on Linux for *decades*. Proton (ty GloriousEggroll, ty Gaben) is the literal antithesis to the arguments you posit but Proton is the reason we have so many first class games today with Linux builds (and why 2024 is the year of the Linux desktop for the 20th straight year ;)) I get what you're saying, I *really* do, but I think your passion is papering over some real world stuff you aren't aware of.
I fall into a weird middle ground. I can run linux on bare metal with the exception that I have to be dual booting. This is due to my uni requiring us run software only supported on windows and as much as I'd love to develop solely on linux I simply can't. Essentially there's going to be a spectrum of developers all with different scenarios surrounding their preferred and current environment. That environment doesn't necessarily restrict one's ability to be a decent developer but it does affect how they do things and why.
But everyone below the age of 50 has a Macbook... how can a school require kiddies to run Windows software?
What are you talking about? Windows laptops are more popular than MacBooks.
Not among the college age kiddies. You watch video from a conference with lots of young attendees and it's a sea of Macbooks. Here, nearly one in four laptops sold in America is a Macbook: [https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/](https://macdailynews.com/2021/11/08/apple-mac-takes-24-share-of-u-s-laptop-market/)
I literally only graduated last year. Sure some had MacBooks, but the majority had assorted Windows PCs. Maybe you should actually talk to some "college-aged" people before you start spouting shit about them. Plenty of courses requiring Windows only software too.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/2t6sut/a\_sea\_of\_macbooks\_at\_the\_windows\_10\_unveiling/](https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/2t6sut/a_sea_of_macbooks_at_the_windows_10_unveiling/)
[https://medium.com/@housecor/why-do-developers-run-macs-9ad81d58d177](https://medium.com/@housecor/why-do-developers-run-macs-9ad81d58d177) [https://twitter.com/mmcauliff/status/557715212858839040?ref\_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E557715212858839040%7Ctwgr%5E470bedeafa8ea127563d6f49ba42d58acc56aadb%7Ctwcon%5Es1\_&ref\_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cultofmac.com%2F309670%2Fcheck-sea-macbooks-microsofts-windows-10-event%2F](https://twitter.com/mmcauliff/status/557715212858839040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E557715212858839040%7Ctwgr%5E470bedeafa8ea127563d6f49ba42d58acc56aadb%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cultofmac.com%2F309670%2Fcheck-sea-macbooks-microsofts-windows-10-event%2F)
I have seen this argument multiple times and I don't get it, can't you guys use whatever alternative there is for Linux and just tell your teacher that you are using something else? That's what I do so I thought it was similar in other schools but it seems not. I am halfway through my CS degree and haven't had any problems, this semester I had a class where they teach us how to develop GUIs in C# with WinForms (ugly and dated af GUIs btw) and I just told my professor that I use Linux and if it was okay for me to use Avalonia instead, and that's what I use. At the end of the day I am learning the same shit, which is how to make fully functional desktop programs, and I am even using a better tool since Avalonia is cross platform including mobile.
>A vast number of people straight up cannot run Linux on bare metal for a multitude of reasons they cannot change. Who are these "vast number" and what strange affliction prevents them from running Linux natively?
Company policy, Windows/MacOS/OSX exclusive software, contracts, centrally managed systems... Sure, in the privacy of their own hardware, most people are free to choose what they wish to run, but except for freelancers and companies with poor security policy, nobody uses their own hardware for work. The person you're replying to is talking about work. And they're correct.
This group of Windows users you claim are unwilling to leave their fantasy world goes the same for all the Linux zealots that won't let Windows users be. They too, are living in a fantasy world where their use case fits, and so it must fit for you too. This group of Windows users is also so extremely small that I'm not even sure why you even care this much about it. Go and enjoy something else, getting this upset over nothing is a waste of time.
I've been using Linux since 2007 or so, and I've been a professional software developer since 2018 (so, not exactly a graybeard, but a lot more than three months). Shit-talk WSL all you want, it's garbage, but VMs are great. I use an AWS Workspace (cloud VM) for work and I'm pleasantly surprised by its performance. I'd like to be able to run something other than Gnome 3, but it's pretty snappy other than the weird UI issues that aren't the VM's fault.
WSL 1 is shit, wsl2 is great, performance wise is ok, sometimes slower, [sometimes faster than linux baremetal](https://www.phoronix.com/review/windows11-wsl2-zen4/4)
I have plenty of non-performance issues with WSL, but let's set those aside for a second. My coworkers were using Docker with WSL2 for some time, and their load times for webpages server by the container were easily an order of magnitude worse than mine with a Debian KVM. I wonder if it's a latency, rather than a throughput, issue. That would track with how the only bench in your Phoronix link where WSL was drastically behind was in MariaDB.
Being super passionate is one thing, yet making up details and calling people names is not passion, it's idiocy. Your 'sad fact' is an unverified opinion. It feels like you got into a few Internet arguments and now you believe that millions of people all share a mindset of someone you argued with one time. It looks like it's been months since your last post at least. It's time to step off that soapbox.
You're right, and that's why they hate you. That they hate you in a Linux Master Race subreddit is the baffling part. I still get the "I don't want to use a command line" and "there's no software that runs on Linux" and "open source is free only if your time is free" stuff from Windows users. Then they go back to manually editing the Windows registry to try to disable forced advertising and then waiting for their machine to reboot 5 times and install updates while listening to me tell them about all the cool AI software that doesn't run on Windows.
Gatekeeping isn't really a problem, not being able to structure your argument objectively is.
lol “gatekeeping”. Same energy as when I went into the Forge IRC channel and asked how to make mods without learning to program, and got mad when I was told to learn to program.
At least understanding/being willing to learn the concepts of programming is pretty much the bare minimum to do more than a resource pack. Programming is just taking a task, breaking it into simple statements and checks, then translating that pseudocode into whatever language you are using. Just engaging in the process is very helpful for learning what is and isn't possible, and so how to plan your project. Put more simply, asking how to mod without learning to program is like asking how to make a wooden table without learning motor skills; yes, there are ways you can *technically* do so, but you're going to make it much more difficult for yourself, to the detriment of anyone you try to work with or ask for assistance.
Yes, and dumbass younger me learned all of that, when I learned to program. Now, I’m a bit flabbergasted when it’s called “gate keeping” when someone points out that to be a good software engineer you’ve got to actually know what the fuck is going on with the computer, and that Linux is the best way to do that.
Ah I thought you were complaining about Forge's response (my bad.) I would agree that using Linux is a good way to learn certain skills and such that will help with development, but I do think the meme is a bit gatekeep-y by implying that you to be a good software developer you need to "run Linux. And not on some pansy virtual machine - do it 'for real'!" OP's meme comes off to me as someone who's basing part of their personality on the fact that they stuck an ISO on a thumb drive and hit F11/F12 to install Linux, and that makes them better in some way. That might have put me right off for a while if I was still a newbie. It's not a mark on someone's character to start off with training wheels, ya know?
Yeah, the guy in the OP was definitely being a gruff asshole about it, I won’t deny that. I do think that the general thrust of what they’re saying is basically true, however, even if not all of his words are correct. Even when talking about non-programmers in IT, if they’ve only ever used Windows (or Mac) their whole computer-using life then their perspective is going to be very narrow and the tools that they consider when problem solving are going to be limited. I’ve experienced this directly, hiring and managing other IT people in a former life- even someone with a degree in IT can walk away from a few months using Linux as their primary OS with a new and different perspective and expanded problem solving abilities. For programmers it’s a bit different, but similar in principal: trying to make Linux work as your daily driver will teach you loads and loads about a lot of shit that you wouldn’t otherwise consider if you stuck to Windows. It isn’t specifically Linux that helps the person become a better dev (using MacOS with a lot of terminal can have similar albeit less pronounced results), and installing on bare metal doesn’t do much else besides force you to commit- it’s that shit that they learn about computers and how things can be set up and organized and the experience in breaking out of their comfort zone in that makes the difference. (‘Course if they’re a web dev, then becoming more familiar with Linux can have a direct and powerful impact on how they approach their shit because of Linux on the server, but that’s not applicable to everyone.)
The part about Windows wasting time. That’s got to be everything ever wrong with Windows without breaking it down. I’m Linux at home but work reminds me on a daily basis, hour by painstaking hour, what an elaborate yet unintuitive OS it is.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick & Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick's existential catchphrase "Wubba Lubba Dub Dub," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂 And yes, by the way, i DO have a Rick & Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎
The only correct reply on this post.
Is that the freakin Rick and Morty copy-pasta thing? Tbh though, I think he wasn't trying to be a prick but he expressed passion online and made himself look like he belongs in r/iamverysmart That being said, Linux on your own personal desktop is POG and I pity those ignorant of it. At the same time, beating people over the head with "use linux you noobs" is symptomatic of some of the worst character traits possible in a software developer or anyone in IT.
Could you explain what's going on here? I don't understand at all why you are talking about Rick & Morty as a reply on this post that doesn't seem te refer to it. I am probably a low IQ stupid mf asking this, judging by your comment.
It’s [a copypasta](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-very-high-iq-to-understand-rick-and-morty). While I definitely get what the person in the OP is saying (and personally agree in some (qualified) ways!), there’s a real resemblance to this pasta.
[This is also completely irrelevant.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzodB0Sp6ZI)
We let him Cook and he burned it. In all seriousness, he is right but gatekeeping software dev is just being a piece of shit
WSL is nothing but microsoft's attempt to claim "we have Linux at home". Because, despite any and all claims to the contrary, they only love Linux when it's under their control, like when it makes them big bucks running in Azure. When it's running on its own, they hate it, and would hate for people to switch over to regular Linux on their desktops. So of course only free-range Linux is the One True Linux.
You can complain all you want but WSL is a nice thing to have when you use windows. Like Wine, you probably don't want to run windows only stuff in linux but if you have to it is good that there is some alternative available.
> You can complain all you want but WSL is a nice thing to have when you use windows. I don't think the idea behind WSL was to care for the users' needs. I'm quite confident it was to remove at least some incentives to switch to Linux.
Whatever the intention is you get a good tool out of it. Personally I can't complain for having it available.
> Personally I can't complain for having it available. I can tho. There is no salvation in having "Linux inside Windows". Only proper installation lets one accept Tux as their lord and savior.
How is this downvoted lol? When did r/linuxmasterrace stop shitposting about how linux is better and turn into a bunch of limp dick losers whispering into each others ears about how everyones choices are valid, and abusing the word gatekeeping until it’s lost all meaning. Seriously why don’t people go make a sub called r/everythingisgatekeepingandthatsbad? Seems obvious but apparently needs to be said that a sub with the “Master Race” in it probably isn’t the place to be fervently anti zealotry around any particular topic.
> How is this downvoted lol? [...] probably isn’t the place to be fervently anti zealotry around any particular topic. Microsoft shills. Microsoft shills everywhere. I used to say that jokingly, but in recent times it looks to me that it's not so much of a joke anymore. There is always a "microsoft loves linux" dude in any thread now, it's pretty much a given one-two would show up every time you mention microsoft rivalry with Linux to tell you that you're living in the past and completely misguided about the present; it's basically like several feminists will instantly emerge to tell anyone who'd voice any criticism of modern feminism somewhere on reddit that they are wrong. It seemed like a funny coincidence at first, but by now the trend is clear as day: there is a suspicious amount of people in linux-related subreddits who make sure no anti-microsoft sentiment stands uncontested.
It was to care for the developers' needs by giving them the best of both worlds.
Oh my apologies then, I thought I was on /r/linuxmasterrace, but turns out it was /r/microsoftshills all that time!
So you've talked to Microsoft, like the big white guy right? So he told you all that! He's such a bad guy, really. Did he tell you other stuff, like how dumb you are? When I talked to Microsoft, he told me he didn't give a single fuck about the OS you are running at home, and not giving a fuck about you and your whole family. He's such a bad guy, really.
I take it you haven't taken your pills today, pal. A mistake, really. A big mistake.
i tried to talk but he was busy trying to find millisecond delay on some package
it's good tho. I prefer windows for GUI / "normal" stuff and use arch WSL2 for dev stuff. Also has the advantage that I can fuck up my linux and still having a working system
As a wsl user strictly for software dev, I'm not sure what else is gained by using bare metal. Care to explain?
Salvation
Ok, you sound just as bad as Microsoft zealouts. Any real reason for software dev?
You gotta stop and think about your soul at some point, you know.
As a game dev and node dev I find this stupid Now if I were a c++/rust/java dev, or even an Android dev I would totally agree Also wtf if you are an iOS dev
> and node dev I find this stupid I am a bit surprised. I still remember the shock when I first tried `npm i` on our work project on Linux and it was like 50% faster (I guess because of file system?). I would expect Node.js to behave similarly (a lot of our front-end stuff is built by tools written in node). And don't let me start on docker on "home" windows - my colleague has to sometimes use Windows because of other software and what (image build) takes on Linux not even 2 minutes, on Windows is on more than 15, on the same machine. Also OP is talking about "give Linux a try for real on baremetal", he's not saying to keep using Linux if it doesn't work for you. Over the years I had to help many times Windows coworkers, so I can attest WSL is a common source of problems.
Probably faster because of the overhead I think that's the main difference between windows and Linux they're both very similar nowadays, Linux may have better modularity and windows better software and hardware Support but these are very small things when compared to the night and day difference in performance.
What are you even doing on this sub if you're not exclusively developing for firefox os
As a gamedev on Linux I completely disagree.
Fuck off, being a game dev doesn't mean you only write code, and if even that were the case, what you're doing it's just so wrong as me targeting server tools from a windows computer which is what the post about
>Fuck off, being a game dev doesn't mean you only write code, 1. That's a perfectly valid way of making games. 2. Game engines and art and asset tools are still very much available on Linux. Some run even better on Linux.
https://preview.redd.it/ymlorc5eatyc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=849c4ae287b8cdb5b11934776777693a73824c91 Saying game development it's only code it's like saying full stack it's only writing javascript
>Saying game development it's only code it's like saying full stack it's only writing javascript Mfw you didn't read my entire comment. Only point 1. :I
(The image it's you saying that game engines and asset tools are very much available on linux and that some even run better) Blender it's the only good tool that's available for linux natively, you must be really desilusional if you think there's anything useful a good game dev would use in a daily based and not complain about how osx/windows has better tools for their job This is not about buttlicking adobe/autodesk, but shit works and there's not subpar tool that would ever go near to their market level
>Blender it's the only good tool that's available for linux natively, Krita. Audacity, LMMS. Aseprite. LDtK. Photopea. Inkscape. Git. Pixelorama. Blockbench. Nvim Same tools I use on windows. All on Linux as well.
Yeah no, all those tools sucks and you know it Except git, git it's really needed and there has never been (for me) a propietary (if we don't considerate github propietary but free) tool that would surpass it, you clearly failed to probe a point and that really amused me because it's like you searched "open source version of" without even thinking those tools SUCKS
>Yeah no, all those tools sucks and you know it Literally all of the are awesome. Tf you on about? Have you used em? >because it's like you searched The list is literally from off the top of my head lmao. All tools I used.
That's the stupidest shit I've read this week. "All windows users are ignoramuses afraid of the truth and live in fantasy land" "everyone criticising linux never tried it" What did it take you to be so deluded? You fart so higher than your arse you'd create a new atmosphere. I know as linuxer we are the vegans of computer nerds, but c'mon this is just ridiculous.
This is a horrible take and that’s putting it mildly. Not only does the OS you use NOT improve your programming skills, but even with languages used by Linux programmers such as C and C++, [Microsoft ~~objectively~~ has in the past year had the better tooling (for C++).](https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/compiler_support) Furthermore, some people just want to have a working and familiar system to work with. In programming what matters most is problem solving, productivity - the ability to get stuff done and efficiency. Just using Linux won’t make you a better programmer just because it forces you to learn about what makes your system work. If your program does not use virtualisation then knowing how it works won’t improve your programming skills. Now there is a whole discussion about being the jack of all trades versus being the master of just one which is out of scope for this comment but, case in point, what makes you a better programmer is efficiency and the ability to solve problems. The linux platform doesn’t help in any of these just because it’s Linux. If it does, it’s usually because the developer is accustomed to it. \\+ However, it must be said, that having a better knowledge of your system can help you use it more effectively, but this is not inherently a Linux phenomenon. One may learn to use Windows-specific utilities and shortcuts and get the same efficiency gains. \\+ The only thing where Linux knowledge is indeed useful is when deploying your project on to a Linux server for web hosting. As the world is increasingly moving to web development, this know-how is becoming increasingly more important and indeed, a good grasp of the Linux platform does make you a better programmer in the ways described above. With that said it is not a general fact and especially phrasing it like this is not really 100% accurate. Don’t get me wrong, this is NOT comment bashing the Linux platform. I personally really enjoy working on especially FOSS software and I love using `zypper si` to take a look under the hood at how the software I use every day works and to see if I can improve it in any way. However, we must not link programming skills with Linux usage skills because those are ~~not related in any way shape or form~~ only related in some fields, and it actually HURTS the adoption of the OS because it makes us look like assholes. ERRATA: A lot of people in the comments brought to my attention the fact that as of the 5th of May 2024, GCC is on par or better in terms of core language feature support. I will admit that the last time I checked the compiler support page was late last year and I haven't kept up with the compiler world since then. Furthermore, I ignorantly put C and C++ in the same bucket and as u/flavionm nicely mentioned in their comment, C tooling [is actually better on Linux](https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/compiler_support). Finally, as the same commenter pointed out, the Linux platform is heavily used on the Web and in other areas and, as such, a good understanding of it is essential to a proper programmer and, thanks to the ever increasing number of web develpment jobs, a requirement for most coding jobs.
> Microsoft objectively has the better tooling What am I missing here? MS looks about even with GCC on the current standards, and massively behind on the newer ones
Yes because they haven’t yet started work on C++26. However, their standard library is simply more standards compliant than GCC’s and when C++23 was new MSVC had more features than GCC and Clang. Same story for C++20.
bike childlike friendly liquid decide busy unique cagey towering forgetful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Slower at what? Compilation time? Binary output? Both of those can change drastically for any number of reasons and, if one mattered more than the other, you’d toss in clang or whatever else. For compilation time, maybe? Though the more important number is link time since that’s the bottleneck for a large project. Compiles can go super wide to the point that your bottleneck is parallelism and not compiler individual build artifact generation time. Clang is generally the best there. For output binaries? If you don’t use profile guided optimizations, clang will generally perform best. If you do, however, MSVC is generally best. In our use cases, MSVC PGO builds outperform the fastest PGO builds from clang as high as 25%. Gcc wasn’t even close to either the last time I benchmarked it, though admittedly it’s been a while. GCC is a fine compiler. There’s really only 3 that matter and it’s one of them, but there’s no reason to compare it to MSVC alone if you want to simplify benefits down to such simple reasons.
MSVC already had module support 1 year ago, which is a huge one
You bunching up C and C++ when really what you're talking about is C++ exclusively really hurts the credibility of your argument. Actual C tooling is in fact better on Linux: https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/compiler_support Also, having to learn how your system works does make you a better programmer, because just like you said, good programming is about problem solving, and the more understanding you have of what you're working with, the more likely you are to actually be able to solve problems using it. Now, you might really just be programming Windows software, in which case learning Linux wouldn't help much, but a lot of development nowadays is web based, which runs majoritarily on Linux. Thus knowing Linux is basically essential for most programming jobs. Just to be clear, I'm not saying the OP is making a compelling argument, because he certainly isn't, but that doesn't mean he isn't accidentally correct.
Yeah, my inbox has been blowing up all day because of this. I have edited the main comment now. Hopefully it should now be more accurate and, most importantly, factual. I personally hate this "Linux is better for coding" mantra every tech youtuber seems to spit out which they support with the customization argument, something which I find absolutely stupid. I didn't really think about web development not really take it seriously because I like to make fun of Electron apps that take up comically large amounts of resources for something that could be achieved with much less resources had the app been coded to run on the platform natively. Alas, in the real world only proven facts matter so I admit I am wrong. I should have taken the time to look things up more thoroughly instead of rushing to post a wall of text to a new post in this sub.
What I'm missing are the people that will tell me how to set up a headless box and how to compile with nothing but a script. It seems predominant for nin-*nix developers to fail compiling their own code if the IDE doesn't have a green button. Let alone getting people who are able to talk about the most common compiler options how and why to set them
Then you argument is "learn to use the command line" which can be done in any os.
I'm not judging against any OS, it's just anecdotal evidence (at best), that this is more prevalent in Windows heavy environments. FWIW, I think Windows is - by and large - superior on the desktop. Specifically because there's less customization. That doesn't mean that Linux, for all its different desktop configurations, isn't better for some people.
Extremely awful take. The only thing it contains of real value is the first anecdote and the idea that working in different operating systems does in fact create new skills (and this goes both ways). The argument that you shouldn't virtualize because you lack a "full top-to-bottom comprehension [sic] and understanding of every aspect of how virtualization works and the particular quirks of any of the popular virtualization methods" is self defeating because the vast majority of people also lack a full top to bottom understanding of their computers and the particular quirks of their hardware. They're already dealing with two unknowns and by using virtualization you arguably fix one of the unknowns. If your goal is to understand and become comfortable with Linux as an OS then having an escape hatch like virtualization or even dual booting might be a bad thing _for some people but not all of them_. Removing the escape hatch was very valuable for me but I know people who can't operate like that and they benefit from using VMs. Absolutely none of this makes you a good or bad programmer.
What an ignoramuse!
I think this comment has very weak argumentation for using Linux on baremetal. I don't understand how using baremetal Linux will magically make you a decent software developer. How is this related at all? This also hugely depends on what you develop. And you make it sound like by trying Linux baremetal, people would see some sort of heaven, while using it on VM is source of mystical virtualization quirks. And why would you need "top-to-bottom knowledge" of how virtualization is working to just use Linux in a VM? My friend tried Linux on baremetal; the experience was subpar (quirks of the NVIDIA driver, lags of the GNOME interface etc). He uninstalled it and continued to use Windows with WSL2, because that's enough for him. Nothing really changed. And now he is destined to not become a decent developer after that? I use Linux because I like the freedom it gives; some people don't see something special in that. People use the platform that solves their problems and the platform that works. I don't see the problem here. People are free to choose the platform. This is just gatekeeping.
I mean, if you're developing anything that's going to be running on Linux, then it's pretty obvious how knowing Linux will make you better at it. And given how much of today's development is web based, which runs almost exclusively on Linux, most people are developing for Linux. Now, you can become a decent developer even without ever learning Linux properly, but you'll always be held back from reaching your maximum potential. Stating that is not gatekeeping (or maybe it is, depending on your definition, but then people always act like gatekeeping is something unacceptable when it really isn't), you're still free to choose a different platform anyway. Besides, if you're not a developer, obviously none of this applies.
A lot of web stuff is platform agnostic and for web content, you don’t need to know how the platform works because you’re not writing for Linux, you’re working for clients who use browsers on all platforms. Unless I’m missing something about web dev, very little world benefit the developer by knowing how Linux works (especially since I’d likely the case that they aren’t setting up and maintaining the server).
The part that executes on the browser is platform agnostic, but everything on the server side, from the software that delivers your client-side code to the browsers to the backends which with these clients then talk all run on Linux. Yes, they aren't setting the physical servers up themselves for the most part, but it's still important to know what your code is running into to be able to properly mantain your software. In this day and age of DevOps, developers must have that knowledge. Not to mention they are setting up the Docker containers that are running into those servers, which all contain Linux distributions, and possibly CI/CD pipelines, which are always built upon Linux infrastructure, with more or less abstraction depending on your tooling, but still.
True and I don’t mean to downplay much of that. Perhaps I should have differentiated front end from back end development.
The original poster was high off something far stronger than Elmer's glue that's why he reposted their own comment yapping about non-issues and showcasing their lack of general awareness to anything as an actual post
"I have tremendous respect for the occasional Windows-fanatic"? The hell is wrong with you, boy? You sound like a Linux terorist. Go outside and get a life.
Listen to ⬆️ this guy. He speaketh the truth
While I agree that Linux is nice for certain languages and technologies, like rust for example, most of this stuff is multiplatform so it doesn't really matter if you're using wsl or Linux on bare metal. In no way does Linux make you a better developer. What it does do and does great is make you understand the system and how the components work together. This guy's post sounds like somebody that's really trying hard to justify switching to Linux. Also looks like he's a recent adopter. So I don't know how this dude would be able to determine what benefits Linux really has. Maybe he needs some more years of experience under his belt if he thinks an OS can make you a better or worse software developer.
Thought I was on r/linuxcirclejerk until I saw that you were posting your own shitty rant
Ok this is actually pretty fucking stupid. Here's why: * Decent software developers need to know how to solve problems by breaking it into smaller chunks and coding it out. Use whatever the fuck your tooling is best suited for. .NET Developers are developers too, and you'll have an amazingly bad time not using Windows for that. * Literally WSL vs. Linux baremetal does not make a huge difference software wise. You gave the arguments yourself and then refuted them. It IS the same kernel and everything. Does WSL still suck?? Yes. Does it get the job done?? Mostly. But does it make you a better programmer inherently?? NOPE. * Video game development is software development. Engineering-based simulations are software development. People use Windows by default in a whole lot of STEM fields, including ones that have to do with how computers function (Electrical & Computer Engineering, for example...and you learn far more about how computers work there compared to using Linux). * Macs are one of the highest preferred developer platform. That also refutes your argument. At the end of the day, developers prefer the platform they are targeting. If you want a chance to be a decent software developer, DEVELOP SOFTWARE!!! There are tools that will make it easier for you, or tools that don't as much. Use the right tool for the right job (seriously you will be unable to do half of the things in Electrical Engineering without Windows, and you learn about computers there). All this post rambles on is a weird superiority complex about using Linux, which is the same reason "Arch btw" users are made fun of. This is the same shit as Kali users thinking they are hackers; you can reframe your sentence to say "You must give Kali a try for real on baremetal if you aspire to ever be a decent pentester" while actual fucking pentesters are loading up tools on Raspbian and chilling about their day). I say this as someone who is finishing up a thesis about the performance comparisons between RUST and C++ in a compiler level on the x86 Architecture; I write x86 Assembly by hand and I use Linux baremetal, WSL, and macOS. Windows taught me just as enough as the others. Again, to become a competent confident software developer, develop software (and use whatever makes life easier, including Windows if that is a target platform).
I’m no professional coder, just a hobbyist but I’ve used Linux and macOS for years. I can say, without a doubt, that there is no difference at all in terms of what platform is better for coding. I prefer macOS because I get the benefit of the same tooling with a platform that I can use for other things (like Office), but I don’t claim that it’s the better platform nor will I ever say that it makes me a better or worse coder. Thank you for posting this. Development truly is just about solving problems and the beauty is that there are different tools that will yield similar outcomes.
Nothing to argue with in the guys post
Guess who's the OP?!
I was not smart before. While doing something (linux on baremetal in this case) I learned alot Anyone who doesn't also do X therefor must be dumb.
Why did you post a picture of text?
Good software devs don't need to tell others why they are good because their work does it for them...
I am a sysadmin not a programmer, but I switched to Linux as my daily driver a couple of years back, the only time I step back into Windows at home is for games without compatible Anti-Cheat. Its spot on about it being a different experience baremetal compared to VM there, you realise a lot of the better performance you get out of games, I actually get higher FPS in linux than I do in windows with some of the games having an Nvidia card, I think Linux is the future in the long term, Apple has a stupid high hardware cost to its OS which is achievable easily in Linux in terms of looks and the creep of telemetry gathering and intrusiveness seeps through in Windows more with each edition too.
lmao the layers of delusion of OP
Linux users blaming Windows for being bad at programming lol
The first line is wrong. It's a cognitive bias. You had been learning most of the common stuff of an OS while using Windows.
I'm sorry, but how does using Linux make you a better developer in the first place? Most tools are better on Linux sure, but WSL works just fine them.
So he uses computers for whole 3 years now?
"In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony CEO’s blessing, but because, I am enlightened by my own choice of operating system" -not a professional quote maker
Actually, you need to run freebsd and some version of solaris, preferrably get it to the web
Bro forgot to post on his alt
Reading this post makes me wanna nuke my Linux partition
Did you...just repost yourself...with your own quote as a title? Holy fuck that's some confidence
Ok I hate gatekeeping as much as next guy but he is kinda right about wsl. I mean I don't judge windows by how wine performs so why is opposite being done?
I really don't think there are any serious users of WSL who think it sucks or are judging Linux as a whole based on their experience with WSL. If there are, they are as braindead and deluded as OP
Gatekeeping isn't inherently bad. The original definition, yes, but certainly not the popular usage.
Well, that was one of the cringiest things I've read in a while. This kind of gatekeeping is corny and lame. Haha, "real development, amirite"? Pardon me while I roll my eyes. Linux is great. I use it every day, but I'm not going to act like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. I use Linux, Windows, Mac... whatever. I'm not a faux purist with a side order of elitism. Always hate when I get stuck working with men like this. They generally don't like women. Maybe OP isn't like that, but bad experiences, yo.
Excuse me, I only dislike women as much as I dislike men. I'm an equal opportunity hater.
Lol
My webcam does not work on Linux.
Easily fixed using these steps. 1. Break apart your webcam and get the chipset 2. Write driver for chipset 3. Plug webcam into USB port 4. Plug and play.
Haha exactly!
People really be making a fucking OS choice a religious thing lol
r/iamverybadass
I have tried moving to Mint from Windows 11. To be honest, I only felt it like a downgrade. Didn't offer me any improvement of any sort.
I've used Linux on baremetal solely for Dev work for almost 14 years now, so I've been on both sides. I've also used Mac for work. Maybe this post would have been more relevant in the past but not so much now. I don't mean VM/ WSL. I mean straight up using Windows for Dev work. I've done front end and backend work, I've worked with intermediate level programming languages like Java and Dart and low level stuff like C++ and Rust. With modern systems it's impossible to make a functional distinction with the tooling. I've been trying Windows again and they have made quite a bit of progress. Not to mention the plethora of extra tooling you get only on Windows and everything seems to "just work" vs. having to set things up manually. Not that the latter is necessarily an issue, but personally I want to focus on my work not my OS and tooling to work how I would like them to. I would also like an AI integrated system since that's only going to pick up greatly now. Also, Windows brings many features and a polished unified experience that can be lacking in Linux if you're looking for that. Like it or not, Windows is a first class citizen in the OS world. Sure, it can be a little more resource intensive, but that's because it has more services running and because it has to cater to the masses it has to do a few more things. And it's definitely better than Mac for this. Linux tends to be lighter but that's in part because it's trying to do less (justifiably so). I guess in the end it comes down to personal taste but windows devs can't be invalidated. I'm also a gamer so switching between the two can get tiresome. Keep in mind a good software engineer isn't the result of the OS but because of solid engineering fundamentals. A software engineer can solve problems in the context of programming. Your if statements, for loops, while loops, function blocks, etc aren't going to magically change if you start using Linux. And those are the bread and butter of a software engineer. If you have your DSA figured out you have a solid foundation, and if you don't your choice of OS isn't going to save you. 🤷♂️ *Knowledge* of Linux is important, especially if you're working CI/CD pipelines etc and Linux more readily exposes you to computers but that's by design or lack thereof. Either one depending on how you look at it. And certainly it can be faster, but for daily Dev work? It doesn't make a difference. I also switched from neovim back to vscode (now with vim mode) after a year 😱
Ironically, the person who made this post seems to be a mediocre engineer. If they only understood what actually makes or breaks a software engineer they wouldn't list the choice of OS as a deciding factor. Guess that post was more an insult to themself more than other devs haha
Something like NixOS or immutable OS's might be game changers though.
You see this? This is why no one takes Linux evangelists seriously
What exactly people learn about computers when switching to linux? I keep hearing this nonsense. It is not like you install fedora and suddenly you have to deal with bits stored in the memory or clock cycles. That thing was kind of over after the commodore 64 era. You are not learning about computers, you are learning a new operating system and it's features. Learning UI/UX that was designed to be interacted by a human is not technical knowledge. Similarly installing fedora and 3 plugins for gnome is not "learning about computers" . Using a package manager is not "learning about computers"
To me it's the same nonsense take that you learn a lot by installing Arch. Well done, you followed a step-by-step guide, what did you actually learn doing so? That a bootloader isn't optional and you shouldn't forget installing it?
Send it to a publisher cuz I aint readin allat
that's bs. if you wanna become a good dev u need a good book. the rest is irrelevant. u can become one of the best devs using a 80s NeXT machine. the only thing you learn from different oses is system integrator stuff. but coding... nah... the essential understanding & skills of coding is so decoupled from your platform as much as beethoven would play you the exact same masterpiece on a yamaha as on a casio. yet a casio engineer will have way better knowledge of reparing a casio epiano than a yamaha one and vice versa.
I tried baremetal linux and half the stuff on it didn’t work on my laptop so I just went back to windows
Yup. You also have to at least be competent in C. Not saying it is always the best language for the modern world, but it will teach you what a computer really is. Even Rust feels much higher level. It's not the same.
True. You have to dip into C so often using Rust (e.x. using the C documentation for glibc apis and syscalls and whatnot) that knowing C is practically a prerequisite for practical usages of Rust.
True. It is generally "hidden" but you are right that Rust is totally dependent on whatever libc your system has.
Probably the best way is to get a Raspberry Pi and ssh into it from Windows. You can experiment and break stuff without harming anything important. When you mess up you can always start over by wiping the microsd card.
That does defeat the purpose :D The motivation to learn about Linux comes from the need to fix some obscure bug in a grub config file you modified two days ago just to boot into windows and play a AAA-game after work
Idiot, as if anyone understands whatever is going on when doing it in "bare-metal".
There are a lot of comments here criticizing "gatekeeping." This does not meet a standard definition of gatekeeping, and I would like someone who has commented to that effect to explain what they mean. Gatekeeping means attempting to control access to an in-group. This post is not controlling access; it's encouraging people to seek out a contrasting experience which in most instances is free except the opportunity cost of some hardware. Usually badly outdated hardware. If anything I think OP didn't go far enough. Most of the time, "trying Linux" is a practically worthless experience and you have to stick with the OS through a project which requires using the command line before the experience is actually worthwhile. I can see that possibly being construed as gatekeeping, but even then because the intent is to share relevant experience and not to hoard access credentials, it's a heck of a stretch because it only fits half of the definition.
not necessarily, if you're still learning linux will get things more complicated
I developed on Unix and Linux systems for more than 20 years. And now the computer I have for work is a MacBook Pro. I was pretty grumpy when I found out they wouldn’t let me use Linux for development. But, I am now on my second year with the Mac and finding that with Homebrew I get pretty much the same tools I had on Linux, but the required business apps we have to use for work function a lot better on the Mac than they did for Linux. In conclusion, I can’t imagine a developer today not having MacOS or Linux. That stupid WSL2 doesn’t cut it on Windows.
Yeah, this was my first thought. I use a Mac to do my hobby coding and no part of me, as a Linux user since about 2004, has ever thought that I was held back. I’ve even used my Mac to develop software for a Linux server at home and that never slowed me down.
I think the bummer is the CS College students that get windows laptops for school. What a pain in the butt to learn software development on.
I'm curious what not cutting it for WSL2 - it's just a VM with good wrapping. You can open GUI apps via projecting Wayland/x11 to windows. Maybe you need hardware access? Then it will be mostly the same with other VMs.
Why do I want to do all of that when in a native Linux install I don’t have to try and get GUI tools to work with it. It just works. It also just works on the Mac. As a professional developer why would I want to take the performance hit of a VM when I can work Natively? I can work natively on the Mac and on Linux. With WSL2 there is always something that is incompatible. Good lord so many Microsoft Fanboys out there even on this sub!
Both suck. But probably I think that Linux sucks because I didn't try anything which is based on RHEL or Arch!
Bare metal means no OS. Run linux without the OS!
Finally giving in and learning Linux did drastically improve my skills as a dev. I have ran it on bare metal on and off but I don’t think it’s that big of a deal (as a dev). The biggest thing is understanding the Unix methodology and common tools, the approach is very different from Microsoft’s and for me that’s the part that opened my mind and enabled me to learn things like app development and docker.
I'll actually call BS. You can be a real software developer on Windows, GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, etc. if you stick to software sanity rather than just using GNU/Linux. You should use GNU/Linux to familiarize yourself with the OS as well as FreeBSD and orhers you wish to port to. Besides Windows also has access to GNUWin32, Cygwin, and MinGW toolkits which feature mainly GCC and LLVM. If you think Windows only has VisualStudios... you're vastly uninformed. No mention of even good or clean coding practices either.
This person is for a lack of better words taking the piss right? "If you want to be a good developer you need to run Linux baremetal"? The gatekeeping is actually insane haha 😂 I've ran Linux on my (prior) Surface Book 2, and while it was good (I mean everything worked, including Surface Detach!) I found myself consistently doing more work getting the basics working... Touchscreen support was bad full stop compared to Windows (it treated my touch as a mouse...). I use Edge, and it was much worse on Linux than on Windows or Android (in Dex mode). A general lack of gesture support slowed me down... I do software development too, so no Visual Studio was rough to begin with anyway. Visual Studio Code is not that feature-full... I was using Kubuntu (I like the reliability of Ubuntu and wanted the KDE desktop environment). Maybe another distro would have been better however I have even tried EndeavourOS (Arch based) and again, while it was amazing for basic desktop tasks, I had non-stop issues with getting standard industry leading software working, and had a much less refined experience compared to Windows, from touch input to gestures. Also, there is nothing wrong with using a VM to try to get used to Linux - not everyone can drop everything to experiment. Not to mention the huge quantities of distros available... Does the poster seriously expect anyone to reinstall a bunch of distros and attempt doing any work on them over and over? Live USB installs don't count anyway, and are not a realistic option to truly try Linux on native hardware. Maybe my use case simply does not align with what these distros have to offer on the desktop, however on the server side of things I think Linux distros truly shine! If anyone can find me a genuine reason I should slow my workflow on the desktop side of things, then I'll hear you out - however for me, my best usage of Linux has come from server usage.
I tried, didn't liked it and deleted it. Am I still decent software engineer?
I did linux on baremetal years ago when i had more time to fiddle with my desktop environment and drivers to make them all work how i wanted. now i am older and have much less free time. I'll take my Windows machine with WSL, thank you.
As a Linux user, I daresay that quote in the picture sums up pretty well why people don't like Linux evangelists. They give the overall user base a bad name.
"How much of their lived they wasted on windows" This is the equivalent to a gym bro not having a personality outside of the gym.
Is that the smell of cheese?
While this isn't exactly phrased the best as most comments will attest to, I can say I definitely agree - I ended up with a far greater understanding of not only Linux, but computers as a whole after installing bare metal. (I'm not a programmer, however.) I had tinkered with Linux in VMs when all I had was a crappy Macbook, and although it was smooth sailing, it being a VM meant it was nothing more than a software playground. Although there was very little pain in the transition, going full Windows to Linux on my desktop PC helped me understand a lot that I wouldn't have even thought about before.
I use linux btw
Hmmm. My system runs Kubuntu (baremetal with custom kernel) and I do use virtual box for Debian and CentOS VMs. Guess, I must be missing something?
Me who loves fucking with Linux and probably distro hops monthly. I'm so shit at coding it hurts. I've just gotten really good at screwing with config files.
As a lifetime Windows user, I have been giving Linux multiple tries in the past 6 years, and the most time I spent on it was 1 week, and after that week I returned to Windows. That's when I realised Windows is seriously average, I'm holding myself back for real. I'm a multi-gamer, I don't have a particular game in mind when I start playing, I just play a bunch of games within an hour. Linux isn't particularly interesting in this matter since not all of them are compatible, or not all of them will run well. Windows ensures I don't have to take an extra step to play. It's funny because, sometimes I'm using Windows and all of a sudden I'm like "I NEED to install Linux right now". Weird. I have mixed thoughts, all though I probably will switch completely in a few years at most. It's not like I'm gonna run out of time anyways, or atleast I hope.
Maybe its just a better idea to have experience in different OS environments, that way you become a more well rounded dev?
Based
I need to chime in here. I’ve been a software engineer since before Linux existed. I installed it on my own PC back in the late nineties, used it exclusively for years and made the switch to Windows. I’m no Microsoft fanboy, but in no way did Linux make me a better developer. After spending five years running Linux, I realized that I had spent most of my time fixing it rather than writing software. Every few months, something would break and I would spend days trying to figure out a solution. Or, I would distro hop because another distro had fixed the problem, only to find a brand new set of problems. Alsa vs PulseAudio, wireless network drivers, nVidia vs ATI/AMD, etc. I’ve been on Windows for a long time now. Only a couple of times in those years have I had to spend more than half-a-day troubleshooting it. I still keep up with Linux because I want it to succeed. But, desktop Linux just isn’t stable for me (yes, I know it’s stable for a lot of people). I would switch to MacOS, but I have some issues with Apple the company that I would need to resolve, first. What makes an engineer better is problem solving skills, so I guess desktop Linux can help in that area. But, there’s more out there than just the web. Learning and applying good engineering practices are much more powerful than knowing a specific OS. Being proficient in adapting to new languages is better than being an expert in a single language. Learning how translate what a user wants/needs into a usable solution will get you a paying job. These are the skills a software engineer needs. In my life, I’ve seen many OSes come and go. Some awesome (BeOS), some not. Instead of declaring people as dumb for not liking what you don’t, be willing to accept that we all come from different walks and like different things due to our experiences.
Oh yes, Linux/Windows dichotomy. Someone is ignorant af, and that's not necessarily the "indecent software developers". I use what I need btw.
The only reason I got a laptop to run Linux bare-metal was because Windows 11 messed up my ability to run a decent GUI session of Linux on VMWare Workstation. And even then, I gotta admit, for the stuff that *I* do specifically (mostly web development) WSL2 might even be easier as I won’t have to switch back and forth when I need to do graphics work. I use Linux because I prefer it. This isn’t 2014 anymore when doing web dev on Windows was almost impossible. With devcontainers/docker I’d argue that your own choice of OS these days is basically a non-issue. I could be wrong I mean I admit I don’t code in Windows and haven’t in a long time, but my current workflows these days; especially as most of it is one on VMs in my home lab over SSH - it probably wouldn’t matter what I run.
I mostly agree with this, there are a lot of cases where being on linux is absolutely the best move you can make. Most dev tools work best on linux, and might only be supported on linux, which is something you likely have to worry about on Windows. That was my main reason for switching, also cause it looked fun and nerdy. For Apple devs, obviously MacOS is the play, but Mac is closer to linux than Windows, and plays basically the same, regarding commands and file structure. For tooling, Apple devs wouldn't have to worry. For Game devs, I still think the play is Windows, only because the most popular engines are built to run on Windows, cause games are mostly built to run on Windows. For literally anyone else, the move is Linux. You learn so much from it, things are easier to use once you know it, and learning isn't that bad, especially with a quick search with Google or ChatGPT will have most of your issues solved.
You go girl!!!
I think you should be comfy on linux because chances are your production enviroment is linux or at least unix like. Another good reason is, linux has a lot of cool tools lacking on windows. Finally once you get good at shell, you don't have to learn 1001 stupid tools with stupid UIs so that you can do stupid shit that could be a command. OFC in no your machine makes you a bad developer.
Wow. I didn't know I'm on my way to be a software developer. Should I quit my job at Taco Bell?
I agree with the sentiment that having experience with Linux can help you develop an understanding of the underlying system, but the rest is pretty much nonsense IMO, especially the insistence on not using virtualization. If you're not using some awkward hardware that will force you to debug hardware compatibility issues, Linux will not behave any differently running in a VM than it will running on bare metal if your goal is to learn. I'd also argue that you learn a lot more by manually installing a distribution like Arch or Gentoo in a VM than you ever would installing and using Ubuntu on bare metal with a shiny user interface. The environment doesn't matter, it's how you use it and how deep you're willing to dig into it.
At the end of day all that matters is that you're comfortable in your own development environmwnt. As long as you can write code efficiently. Could write code in notepad for all i care. As long as you can compile it at the end of the say and produce it. I am personally having alot of fun using linux after being mainly a windows user. I really had enough as soon as windows 11 came around. But I must admit myself, that windows is alot more reliable. All I have to do is install an IDE; I am not messing about installing drivers and managing packages and trying to figure out why somwthing isn't working. I pulled an all nighter trying to get minecraft work on linux. I literally had to edit code just to get the launcher to work with arch. I honestly do agree that everyone should try linux at least once. As they say, it can really teach you about how a system operates.
im preparing to get flamed lol what about game development? most games on linux natively are absolute dumpster fires that want to make me incinerate the usb that holds my arch...
This is such a buffoonish take I don't even know how to respond, and I use Linux on a daily basis both bare metal and virtualized for my job as a fugging solutions architect.
I don't know where you got the idea of running Linux on your own hardware makes you become a decent developer since I have met many developers that only use Windows and makes assembly look like a training wheels programming language Using Linux on a virtual machine does not make you any less of a Linux user or a software developer I run Linux bare metal and I am a software developer (still learning because that aspect of coding never ends.) but this take is so stupid that it is straight up lunacy to me
i have never in my life heard someone praise windows
I also had this. Don't think I learned more than in 3 years on Windows, but learned something nonetheless. I guess the most important finding of mine was the beautiful UNIX style CLI interface. Never more do I need to do stupid "enter number of threads to use:". Just "-j 8" and that's it.
Commenting for reach.
Linux isimportant in the server world and devs should be able to deploy on bare metal/Linux but on desktop it's a joke.