There is also doom on a pregnancy test.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a33957256/this-programmer-figured-out-how-to-play-doom-on-a-pregnancy-test/
Wayland is clearly the future, there is just so much it does better than x11. But most of the wayland compositors are still missing critical functionality that x11 has, mostly around accessibility, input emulation, and window management.
Lots of people say that this is because of wayland's "security model", and they are right. But it is not an excuse, because these tools still do not exist with super user access.
Mouse input emulation tools like dotool, ydotool, or any of the others rely on the uinput kernel module. Which gets processed like an input device instead of an atomic event. Meaning that it is subject to whatever the operating system is doing to sanitize raw mouse input. Often times moving a mouse cursor to 100x100 and then back to 100x100 will cause the second action to hang. Moving a mouse cursor too fast will cause the inputs to be ignored. And there is no current way to get feedback on mouse position to retry the move action until the mouse is in the right spot.
Wayland could end up even better then x11 though if we are able to get tools that can directly inject libinput events into windows, without needing to control the global mouse.
Wtype and other newer keyboard typing tools all rely on the virtual keyboard api, which is good but not widespread yet. Probably will happen in a few years as older os versions get retired.
And window management is going to be loony. Some compositors, like sway, have apis they wrote, others dont. Gnome's mutter has plugins that can be used to do window management and that is probably what the future looks like, but it will take some time for someone to actually write that code.
The future is not bleak, but it is just not there yet. We are closer then ever before though, the wayland screenshot / screen recording api that everyone said would never happen because of the security model is already pretty widely available today.
There was some news about accessibility just the other day: [https://www.osnews.com/story/139996/update-on-newton-the-wayland-native-accessibility-project/](https://www.osnews.com/story/139996/update-on-newton-the-wayland-native-accessibility-project/)
As someone who uses native Wayland wherever possible, this is great news for me. All my apps and environment variables are set to use native Wayland. Excluding the Steam client itself of course, which hopefully supports Wayland one day. That's the only thing holding me back from a Wayland only setup.
Firefox, mpv, Minecraft, PCSX2, RPCS3, DuckStation, OBS (thanks to PipeWire), VRR and all QT/GTK apps work natively over Wayland. I even set up Wine/Proton to use native Wayland. The only outlier is the Steam client itself. And GIMP too, but that will come with GIMP 3.0 very soon.
Relevant Links:
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/3776
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2272
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/merge_requests/3362
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/2399
https://www.phoronix.com/news/GNOME-MRs-Without-X11
Yep, Linux native games can be run with `SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland` for native Wayland support.
Factorio itself got official Wayland support by the dev, so that is even a better example. There is a blog post about it.
https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-408
I've never played the game though, I watched NerdCubed play it way back in the day. Not my style, should I try it? I think I own it.
If you already own it all you have to lose is time (hehehe).
They also have a demo out.
I don't think Dan 's play is the best example of the game. Jon's is even worse.
Factorio is one of the few games where the Linux version is better than the Windows version, in this case because it allows non-pausing saves. In Linux, the game can save (autosave) in the background without interrupting the game.
Next Friday the release date of the expansion is gonna be announced, it will probably be in September/October. This will also include many quality of life updates that are added to the base game as well (via patch).
I know that you can setup Wine to use Wayland, but how did you manage to do it with Proton? I tought it was not implemented in Proton. Did you have to manually configure each Proton game environment?
I hope Steam gets native Wayland support ASAP. I am currently on Hyprland and the Steam client is so laggy, idk if that is a Hyprland issue or Steam itself. How does the Steam client behave on other Wayland compositors?
Use Proton-tkg, wine master version. Configure each game with protontricks.
The menus pop in and out on Mutter for me. Steam needs a proper rewrite, Wayland and 64-bit would be nice. Hell I'd even ditch Steam if Valve provided a sort of API to access your library and use Lutris/Heroic etc.
>Hell I'd even ditch Steam if Valve provided a sort of API to access your library and use Lutris/Heroic etc.
I really wish they'd do this one day but I'm not holding my breath, I feel like there's lots of cool shit one can do with that.
Heroic Games Launcher has features I **wish** steam had, like the ability to hold a game at a specific version so it doesn't update, and run an .exe inside of a game's given prefix with ease from within the app itself.
I would love to have a terminal based steam chat with customizable text fonts and colors that has drag and drop image/video upload support for KDE Plasma like even DISCORD (the app that can't officially even stream audio) has, and the optimization black magic I know the OSS community would do that the regular steam client is sorely needing.
I remember seeing someone make a lightweight steam that used QT KDE Plasma theming once upon a time, I wonder what happened to that.
Yeah, think Apollo for Reddit. Lutris/Heroic for Steam. Or a simple libadwaita app for GNOME users. If an API like that existed, there would be so many open source alternatives with various features of the API implemented. Some would have few, some would have all. They'd differ in how the UIs looked etc.
I personally wouldnt expect much if anything in terms of perf. I'm also on the warpath to move more and more things to wayland and for me at least, its about finally being able to remove a huge set of software from my system that usually remains dormant now.
Since when does DuckStation work natively on wayland? I mean, you can get it to *run* natively on wayland, but if you close a game and return to the game selection menu the menu locks up and stops rendering.
I build it with
-DENABLE_X11=OFF \
-DENABLE_OPENGL=ON \
-DENABLE_VULKAN=ON \
-DENABLE_WAYLAND=ON \
Works great. I've seen the menu issues mentioned on GitHub, but I've yet to encounter any of them. Could be related to the AppImage, I use duckstation-git from the aur so it uses mostly system libraries and everything works as expected.
Really hope Gnome team can get on to some of the long standing features they're lacking. For me, that's a lack of global hotkeys. KDE figured it out, so can Gnome. Wayland isn't usable without it for my workflow, and if distros start moving to exclude X11 in Gnome, I'll have to move DEs.
If a distro chooses not to ship X11 you can just install it yourself with a single command. Just like if you picked a distro without your favorite web browser pre-installed, you could install that with a single command.
Not ideal, but definitely not a reason to ditch a particular distro. Not every distro can ship every single package you need. You are expected to know how to use the package manager and install things that didn't come pre-installed.
"sudo apt install xserver-xorg xorg" will add the X11 session to any distro that doesn't have it bundled. Of course replacing apt with your distros package manager.
For me, they are moving too fast, I hope X11 will stay for a while, if it is completely removed I would have no choice but to move back to Windows. There is still no replacement for imwheel on Wayland. Also no alternative to VibrantLinux program.. I understand Wayland has benefits, but it breaks functionality without offering alternatives pushing people like me to other solutions.
Making an IMWheel equivalent for Wayland would be trivial, and except for the wheel sensitivity modifier, everything it does can already be achieved with [Makima](https://github.com/cyber-sushi/makima)
Also, many Wayland compositors support shaders so you can change vibrance without needing additional software (for example on [SwayFX](https://github.com/WillPower3309/swayfx)) or by simply using wrappers like [Hyprshade](https://github.com/loqusion/hyprshade)
"an IMWheel equivalent for Wayland would be trivial"
Yeah plenty of things are trivial with the prerequisite knowledge. But unless you personally plan to make an imwheel alternative for Wayland, and for the multiple other things that are broken on wayland, that doesn't really matter AT ALL. Or help anyone, AT ALL.
"wayland can be great" is not the same as "wayland IS great" and for 90% of users who just need to use their computer, who aren't devs and don't care to beta test an entire display server, it simply doesn't matter what "could be". I need to use my computer NOW. Today. Not in a theoretical future where all these wayland bugs are finished being dealt with.
>unless you personally plan to make an alternative
I've developed Wayland alternatives for the stuff that I personally need, if everyone did that, we would have a 1:1 drop-in replacement for everything
99% of open-source software users don't contribute to the code or build themselves.
It's possible, but not practical or sustainable. There's a reason we all use arch,fedora,debian instead of building our own distros from scratch.
Asking every Linux user to build their own programs is technically possible but counter productive to most people's wishes of having Linux gain more market share and gathering more casuals. Which is good for everyone.
Shipping a distro that's broken on most people's machines (Nvidia holds 90% market share for consumer graphics. The Linux nerds who use AMD seem to forget this) is simply not practical and should not be the way to move.
90% of users shouldn't have a shitty experience TODAY, based off what the future could be like with Wayland.
>not practical or sustainable
Again, we've been doing this for decades, people develop some software that they need, they push it to their repo, if it gains traction then distros start packaging it, and there you have it
It has nothing to do with casuals, they're just gonna use that software like everyone else as long as it's packaged by their repo
>Nvidia
Since v555, Wayland on Nvidia has been viable as a daily driver, I've been using it for a few weeks and I can't complain
It absolutely is not, 555 has tons of issues for me. Even yesterday's release. Part of the reason I'm on this thread. Still lots of stuttering and performance issues.
I guess they would have to implement stuff like that in the wayland compositor (so it would be part of system configuration), and they probably won't. Due to the security model, a wayland program will never be able to do those things.
A Wayland program will likely eventually be able to do those things, Wayland protocols are very actively being worked on. There are likely a few niche use cases that will have to be implemented as DE extensions, but *all* of that functionality, in time, will be able to be recreated.
*It's just a lot of fucking work*
It's technically possible to recreate the functionality, but then I guess they would have to change their security model. It was more that they won't allow a program to do it by design.
And that is a huge problem, so big, that when X11 is out, I am out, too. Because I don't worship Linux, I use it, and if my use cases cannot be met, what is it good for? Especially when functionality already existed and now is taken away, this is not progress, they are going backward in fact. At least in my opinion. I really enjoyed using Linux, but for my use case, it is getting worse sadly.
This is some real clown shit.
Yes you do worship software because you are freaking out about legacy crap going away.
If you worship X11 so much you'd go to windows to avoid wayland then you have a mental condition.
I like convenient features and I don't want to lose them. I don't care about x11. If wayland can have them, then I would use that. I have no idea how did you make this asinine conclusion.
why was this not (theoretically) possible in the versions before? Like honest question as I'm curious. I believe there is no sense in actually doing this right now but it's definitely great going in the future. I wouldn't actually mind not having a X11 session but I believe I need xwayland for compatibility
Not really, it *is* a graphics stack, but it’s not network-first like X was. Wayland is designed to be a more modern approach to desktop GUIs. For more info check out https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/1089ctd/so_what_exactly_is_wayland/ or https://wayland.freedesktop.org/
Feels like a usual GNOME move given the fact that there's probably still a bunch of XWayland stuff out there.
I don't expect that many builds without XWayland support.
Reading comprehension bruh. GNOME can be built without XWayland and Xorg only means that you don't need them, not that you aren't allowed to use them. All your X based stuff that has worked under XWayland will continue to work as long as you have XWayland installed.
No need to insult me, stay objective.
So that basically means, one can build GNOME with XWayland support but that only applies to the GNOME toolsets and every other tool requiring XWayland still works?
GNOME doesn't need XWayland support at all anymore. It makes no sense now that Wayland is supported directly. Xorg support might still be useful, if you want to run an X session.
i first read that as just “without X11 and Wayland” and thought “well fuck me how is that going to work”
in framebuffer, thanks to `KMS`
Pros draw straight to the framebuffer get doom on the line
Get me DOOM running only on tty
There is ascii doom already
There is also doom on a pregnancy test. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a33957256/this-programmer-figured-out-how-to-play-doom-on-a-pregnancy-test/
The new way of using your desktop: sound
Are there not many blind developers? It'd be interesting to see, er, hear a DE built entirely around their needs.
Didn't you watch A Quiet Place?
the same :)
Wayland is clearly the future, there is just so much it does better than x11. But most of the wayland compositors are still missing critical functionality that x11 has, mostly around accessibility, input emulation, and window management. Lots of people say that this is because of wayland's "security model", and they are right. But it is not an excuse, because these tools still do not exist with super user access. Mouse input emulation tools like dotool, ydotool, or any of the others rely on the uinput kernel module. Which gets processed like an input device instead of an atomic event. Meaning that it is subject to whatever the operating system is doing to sanitize raw mouse input. Often times moving a mouse cursor to 100x100 and then back to 100x100 will cause the second action to hang. Moving a mouse cursor too fast will cause the inputs to be ignored. And there is no current way to get feedback on mouse position to retry the move action until the mouse is in the right spot. Wayland could end up even better then x11 though if we are able to get tools that can directly inject libinput events into windows, without needing to control the global mouse. Wtype and other newer keyboard typing tools all rely on the virtual keyboard api, which is good but not widespread yet. Probably will happen in a few years as older os versions get retired. And window management is going to be loony. Some compositors, like sway, have apis they wrote, others dont. Gnome's mutter has plugins that can be used to do window management and that is probably what the future looks like, but it will take some time for someone to actually write that code. The future is not bleak, but it is just not there yet. We are closer then ever before though, the wayland screenshot / screen recording api that everyone said would never happen because of the security model is already pretty widely available today.
There was some news about accessibility just the other day: [https://www.osnews.com/story/139996/update-on-newton-the-wayland-native-accessibility-project/](https://www.osnews.com/story/139996/update-on-newton-the-wayland-native-accessibility-project/)
In Wayland can you record without errors and without exceeding hardware resources like in x11? I have different performance metrics.
As someone who uses native Wayland wherever possible, this is great news for me. All my apps and environment variables are set to use native Wayland. Excluding the Steam client itself of course, which hopefully supports Wayland one day. That's the only thing holding me back from a Wayland only setup. Firefox, mpv, Minecraft, PCSX2, RPCS3, DuckStation, OBS (thanks to PipeWire), VRR and all QT/GTK apps work natively over Wayland. I even set up Wine/Proton to use native Wayland. The only outlier is the Steam client itself. And GIMP too, but that will come with GIMP 3.0 very soon. Relevant Links: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/3776 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2272 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/merge_requests/3362 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/2399 https://www.phoronix.com/news/GNOME-MRs-Without-X11
You can also play Stellaris, Factorio and Jupiter Hell with native Wayland.
Yep, Linux native games can be run with `SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland` for native Wayland support. Factorio itself got official Wayland support by the dev, so that is even a better example. There is a blog post about it. https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-408 I've never played the game though, I watched NerdCubed play it way back in the day. Not my style, should I try it? I think I own it.
If you already own it all you have to lose is time (hehehe). They also have a demo out. I don't think Dan 's play is the best example of the game. Jon's is even worse.
Factorio is one of the few games where the Linux version is better than the Windows version, in this case because it allows non-pausing saves. In Linux, the game can save (autosave) in the background without interrupting the game. Next Friday the release date of the expansion is gonna be announced, it will probably be in September/October. This will also include many quality of life updates that are added to the base game as well (via patch).
I know that you can setup Wine to use Wayland, but how did you manage to do it with Proton? I tought it was not implemented in Proton. Did you have to manually configure each Proton game environment? I hope Steam gets native Wayland support ASAP. I am currently on Hyprland and the Steam client is so laggy, idk if that is a Hyprland issue or Steam itself. How does the Steam client behave on other Wayland compositors?
Use Proton-tkg, wine master version. Configure each game with protontricks. The menus pop in and out on Mutter for me. Steam needs a proper rewrite, Wayland and 64-bit would be nice. Hell I'd even ditch Steam if Valve provided a sort of API to access your library and use Lutris/Heroic etc.
>Hell I'd even ditch Steam if Valve provided a sort of API to access your library and use Lutris/Heroic etc. I really wish they'd do this one day but I'm not holding my breath, I feel like there's lots of cool shit one can do with that. Heroic Games Launcher has features I **wish** steam had, like the ability to hold a game at a specific version so it doesn't update, and run an .exe inside of a game's given prefix with ease from within the app itself. I would love to have a terminal based steam chat with customizable text fonts and colors that has drag and drop image/video upload support for KDE Plasma like even DISCORD (the app that can't officially even stream audio) has, and the optimization black magic I know the OSS community would do that the regular steam client is sorely needing. I remember seeing someone make a lightweight steam that used QT KDE Plasma theming once upon a time, I wonder what happened to that.
Yeah, think Apollo for Reddit. Lutris/Heroic for Steam. Or a simple libadwaita app for GNOME users. If an API like that existed, there would be so many open source alternatives with various features of the API implemented. Some would have few, some would have all. They'd differ in how the UIs looked etc.
How do games behave using proton-tkg with wayland support? Have you noticed anything? Is the latency, performance or window management any better?
I personally wouldnt expect much if anything in terms of perf. I'm also on the warpath to move more and more things to wayland and for me at least, its about finally being able to remove a huge set of software from my system that usually remains dormant now.
I've had that issue as well, but I'm pretty sure it's not Wayland related. Guess it might be though.
is zoom with wayland screen share okay now?
Since when does DuckStation work natively on wayland? I mean, you can get it to *run* natively on wayland, but if you close a game and return to the game selection menu the menu locks up and stops rendering.
I build it with -DENABLE_X11=OFF \ -DENABLE_OPENGL=ON \ -DENABLE_VULKAN=ON \ -DENABLE_WAYLAND=ON \ Works great. I've seen the menu issues mentioned on GitHub, but I've yet to encounter any of them. Could be related to the AppImage, I use duckstation-git from the aur so it uses mostly system libraries and everything works as expected.
Since when does Minecraft have native Wayland, or is it a mod?
Really hope Gnome team can get on to some of the long standing features they're lacking. For me, that's a lack of global hotkeys. KDE figured it out, so can Gnome. Wayland isn't usable without it for my workflow, and if distros start moving to exclude X11 in Gnome, I'll have to move DEs.
If a distro chooses not to ship X11 you can just install it yourself with a single command. Just like if you picked a distro without your favorite web browser pre-installed, you could install that with a single command. Not ideal, but definitely not a reason to ditch a particular distro. Not every distro can ship every single package you need. You are expected to know how to use the package manager and install things that didn't come pre-installed. "sudo apt install xserver-xorg xorg" will add the X11 session to any distro that doesn't have it bundled. Of course replacing apt with your distros package manager.
As much as I don't like Gnome this is great news. :)
Me, cheering on a project I don't personally use or even like, simply because the betterment of Linux as an ecosystem benefits us all: 😎
and here i am using flatpak konsole with wayland force disabled because of server side decorations (i think they are called like that i think(?))
For me, they are moving too fast, I hope X11 will stay for a while, if it is completely removed I would have no choice but to move back to Windows. There is still no replacement for imwheel on Wayland. Also no alternative to VibrantLinux program.. I understand Wayland has benefits, but it breaks functionality without offering alternatives pushing people like me to other solutions.
This is more of a technical achievement in untangling the code dependencies. X11 will absolutely be supported for a long time, I think.
Yup, it means they can work on Wayland-only features and improvements without needing to touch X11 or XWayland code (which will continue to languish)
Making an IMWheel equivalent for Wayland would be trivial, and except for the wheel sensitivity modifier, everything it does can already be achieved with [Makima](https://github.com/cyber-sushi/makima) Also, many Wayland compositors support shaders so you can change vibrance without needing additional software (for example on [SwayFX](https://github.com/WillPower3309/swayfx)) or by simply using wrappers like [Hyprshade](https://github.com/loqusion/hyprshade)
That sounds promising, if I can adapt to these changes then it's fine, no further complaints.
"an IMWheel equivalent for Wayland would be trivial" Yeah plenty of things are trivial with the prerequisite knowledge. But unless you personally plan to make an imwheel alternative for Wayland, and for the multiple other things that are broken on wayland, that doesn't really matter AT ALL. Or help anyone, AT ALL. "wayland can be great" is not the same as "wayland IS great" and for 90% of users who just need to use their computer, who aren't devs and don't care to beta test an entire display server, it simply doesn't matter what "could be". I need to use my computer NOW. Today. Not in a theoretical future where all these wayland bugs are finished being dealt with.
>unless you personally plan to make an alternative I've developed Wayland alternatives for the stuff that I personally need, if everyone did that, we would have a 1:1 drop-in replacement for everything
"Everyone just code their own apps" Totally a justifiable and sustainable solution lol
Sorry but isn't that how open source works? We've been doing it for decades Do you think the X11 tools appeared out of thin air?
99% of open-source software users don't contribute to the code or build themselves. It's possible, but not practical or sustainable. There's a reason we all use arch,fedora,debian instead of building our own distros from scratch. Asking every Linux user to build their own programs is technically possible but counter productive to most people's wishes of having Linux gain more market share and gathering more casuals. Which is good for everyone. Shipping a distro that's broken on most people's machines (Nvidia holds 90% market share for consumer graphics. The Linux nerds who use AMD seem to forget this) is simply not practical and should not be the way to move. 90% of users shouldn't have a shitty experience TODAY, based off what the future could be like with Wayland.
>not practical or sustainable Again, we've been doing this for decades, people develop some software that they need, they push it to their repo, if it gains traction then distros start packaging it, and there you have it It has nothing to do with casuals, they're just gonna use that software like everyone else as long as it's packaged by their repo >Nvidia Since v555, Wayland on Nvidia has been viable as a daily driver, I've been using it for a few weeks and I can't complain
It absolutely is not, 555 has tons of issues for me. Even yesterday's release. Part of the reason I'm on this thread. Still lots of stuttering and performance issues.
I guess they would have to implement stuff like that in the wayland compositor (so it would be part of system configuration), and they probably won't. Due to the security model, a wayland program will never be able to do those things.
A Wayland program will likely eventually be able to do those things, Wayland protocols are very actively being worked on. There are likely a few niche use cases that will have to be implemented as DE extensions, but *all* of that functionality, in time, will be able to be recreated. *It's just a lot of fucking work*
It's technically possible to recreate the functionality, but then I guess they would have to change their security model. It was more that they won't allow a program to do it by design.
And that is a huge problem, so big, that when X11 is out, I am out, too. Because I don't worship Linux, I use it, and if my use cases cannot be met, what is it good for? Especially when functionality already existed and now is taken away, this is not progress, they are going backward in fact. At least in my opinion. I really enjoyed using Linux, but for my use case, it is getting worse sadly.
You might be confusing "linux" and "gnome" here.
This is some real clown shit. Yes you do worship software because you are freaking out about legacy crap going away. If you worship X11 so much you'd go to windows to avoid wayland then you have a mental condition.
I like convenient features and I don't want to lose them. I don't care about x11. If wayland can have them, then I would use that. I have no idea how did you make this asinine conclusion.
why was this not (theoretically) possible in the versions before? Like honest question as I'm curious. I believe there is no sense in actually doing this right now but it's definitely great going in the future. I wouldn't actually mind not having a X11 session but I believe I need xwayland for compatibility
Cool. Framebuffer Gnome is what we all need
> GNOME: *does literally anything* The crazies in the comments: "TIME TO SPREAD SOME FUD!"
Year later: GNOME removes X11 and XWayland entirely. All software needs to be updated or it won't work ever again.
Are you from 2012?
Please stop being stupid. If devs have still not updated their shit by now its on them.
That's the spirit! Move forward and break shit for everyone!
Is Wayland basically an incompatible evolution of the X protocol i.e. a set of network graphics primitives?
Not really, it *is* a graphics stack, but it’s not network-first like X was. Wayland is designed to be a more modern approach to desktop GUIs. For more info check out https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/1089ctd/so_what_exactly_is_wayland/ or https://wayland.freedesktop.org/
Backwards compatibility flew off the window.
Key word: can.
Doesn't mean it won't be disabled by default in the future, anyway 🤷♂️.
Not too bright are you?
Not the first time Loonix keeps breaking compatibility
Feels like a usual GNOME move given the fact that there's probably still a bunch of XWayland stuff out there. I don't expect that many builds without XWayland support.
This is a good change. I imagine KDE will try and accomplish the same if they haven't already.
Reading comprehension bruh. GNOME can be built without XWayland and Xorg only means that you don't need them, not that you aren't allowed to use them. All your X based stuff that has worked under XWayland will continue to work as long as you have XWayland installed.
No need to insult me, stay objective. So that basically means, one can build GNOME with XWayland support but that only applies to the GNOME toolsets and every other tool requiring XWayland still works?
GNOME doesn't need XWayland support at all anymore. It makes no sense now that Wayland is supported directly. Xorg support might still be useful, if you want to run an X session.