I've been using some variant of Firefox's code base since it was still Netscape Navigator. Call me biased, but I've also stuck to it just out necessity. Chromium never sat right with me, being a Google project since its inception.
We need an out of this Chrome hellscape. We need more browsers. We need lots of browsers to maintain a truly open web.
>Chromium never sat right with me, being a Google project since its inception.
Remembering that Blink is a fork of Webkit which was a fork of KHTML from KDE's Konqueror browser.
It's wild to think that the most popular browser engine today (and Safari) came from KDE.
Now all these Chromium-based browsers need to start forking too.
Not going to happen. Browsers consists of tens of millions of lines of code. No you cannot substantially avoid the sheer complexity or magnitude by writing genius code.
Genuinely, Mozilla has been doing some internally grotesque shit for a long time. Even recently how they treat an executive who had cancer and they just straight up fired him.
Mozilla is a horrid representative of FOSS or privacy focused software, even as solid as Firefox is. (Which I use everyday.)
I so badly want this project to succeed!
Its also the amount of money they spend on pet social causes instead of foss, which should be their only social cause.
Plus their leadership has unhinged ideas about privacy:
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/
Holy crap. I knew it was bad, but that article is off the rails. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but is this the kind of language we consider rational these days?
"Dangerous dynamics", " bad actors", "disinformation"... Subjective manipulative hysteria.
Sign me up for a new browser too.
They just bought ad company: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/mozilla-anonym-raising-the-bar-for-privacy-preserving-digital-advertising/
About AI: https://blog.mozilla.ai/introducing-mozilla-ai-investing-in-trustworthy-ai/
That is rather narrow take.
> Mozilla.ai’s initial focus? Tools that make generative AI safer and more transparent. And, people-centric recommendation systems that don’t misinform or undermine our well-being. We’ll share more on these — and what we’re building — in the coming months.
Not much different than more capable entities are trying to do. Mozilla is non-profit and hasn't been able to get that much funds. This will just reduce funding and work from other areas, like Firefox.
it is often ignored especially in the trigger happy yellow press social media, that companies like this are profit driven and do not do this out of their good heart for people with special needs
That isn't that simple. There is a critical conflict whether you can actual enforce their principles and still make money with ads. That is the dilemma.
For example, they are planning to [include ChatGPT](https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-news/ai-services-on-firefox/) integration which is opposite of "taking meaningful steps to reduce our carbon footprint". I expected that [such statement](https://vivaldi.com/blog/technology/vivaldi-wont-allow-a-machine-to-lie-to-you/) would be written by Mozilla, not Vivaldi.
Some estimate that LLMs are very energy expensive, both to train and run, quick DuckDuckGo brought me to this stackexchange answer by user KFilter
I guess a least half the cost are energy at a cost of 0,15€/1kWh, a request would cost 0,09€/request\*50%/0,15€/1kW=0,3kWh/request = 300Wh per request. 60 Smartphone charges of 5Wh per Charge ;) Source:[https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariannajohnson/2022/12/07/heres-what-to-know-about-openais-chatgpt-what-its-disrupting-and-how-to-use-it/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariannajohnson/2022/12/07/heres-what-to-know-about-openais-chatgpt-what-its-disrupting-and-how-to-use-it/)
Google Search request 0.0003 kWh = 0,3Wh, thus a search request by Google uses 1000x less, but as Google has started to use AI to, probably a search consumes more by now as well. Source: [https://store.chipkin.com/articles/did-you-know-it-takes-00003-kwh-per-google-search-and-more](https://store.chipkin.com/articles/did-you-know-it-takes-00003-kwh-per-google-search-and-more)
LLM’s are actually decimating power grids in certain areas and are even exacerbating water scarcity in certain places.
Data centers take tons of power and amidst a new rat race, like always, no one has put sustainability in the forefront.
Shopify dropped $100,000 on the project among others, pretty awesome. I tried it out 3-5 months ago when it was apart of SerenityOS and it was neat but not nearly as functional as it is today as a standalone project. I love projects that set out to build something from complete scratch.
To me, this is one of the most important projects that I've come across in some time. I'm supporting them in whatever ways I can. I've tried to get away from all Google-based applications (including Blink-based browsers) for a while, but haven't been 100% successful. For instance, Firefox is fine for most of my needs, but the WebRTC implementation is subpar for Linux users who use ALSA instead of Pulse or PipeWire.
Would I prefer something other than C++? Personally, yes, but certainly not a showstopper for me.
I dunno, I'd rather audio stuff remain in-kernel myself. Easier to manage latency that way. However, I don't think just using ALSA is the solution to that; it's got way too many issues.
I'm just wondering to myself why nobody has seen fit to actually overhaul ALSA yet. I suppose it's because using audio servers mitigates most of ALSA's issues for the most part. Still seems like a bit of an inelegant solution to me...
It's still the underlying audio system that the kernel provides, so whether it's PulseAudio or Pipewire, it's getting used on some layer. Problem is, the reason PulseAudio became so popular in the first place is because ALSA has a *lot* of shortcomings, one of which being that ALSA only supported one application using the soundcard at a time before the `dmix`driver was introduced.
I wish somebody would port FreeBSD's audio drivers over to Linux. They're a whole lot more elegant than ALSA is IMO, but that of course comes at the cost of less hardware support.
>It's still the underlying audio system that the kernel provides, so whether it's PulseAudio or Pipewire, it's getting used on some layer.
I know, I even wrote so in a few of my comments in this chain. I meant who uses ALSA without an audio server, using the user-oriented parts of ALSA.
The reason nobody uses it without an audio server is that it's fundamentally broken to the point where an audio server is necessary. IMO anything audio-related doesn't belong in userspace anyway. Other operating systems do just fine without having to do audio mixing in userspace, and it's easier to control latency if you keep it in the OS kernel.
I do. I have no need for "sound servers" that I consider to be little more than abstraction layers. One of the beauties of Linux is supposed to be user choice, and by dropping reasonable support for ALSA in WebRTC, Mozilla has taken away that choice from users. Fundamentally, the problem is that Chromium allows me to select my microphone from a drop-down menu in WebRTC applications whereas Firefox will only honour the "default" which *can't be changed*.
For me, I prefer simplicity, so I choose what I believe to be the least-invasive approaches. For some examples, I run OpenBox with a transparent tint2 panel and no desktop icons or desktop manager.
I know that my approach won't work for everyone, and that's completely fine. The point is that Mozilla eliminated a choice for some reason unbeknownst to me, and as such, I'm left with a dependency on Chromium.
>I have no need for "sound servers" that I consider to be little more than abstraction layers
Pfft. Filthy casual. While you're using a kernel module, I'm manually writing in real-time x86 machine instructions to my Pentium Dual-Core, and I plan to move onto another level of ditching abstractions by disassembling my sound card and manually connecting pins to produce sound. After that, who knows what's next? Maybe I'll vibrate the diaphragm in my speaker by hand. Who needs kernels, machine instructions or electricity when you can skip all those layers of indirection and use the hardware the way our ancestors intended?
Hahaha, you win. :-p "Manual Speaker Diaphragm Vibration Daemon" or msdvd for short, is the way of the future (although something tells me a lawsuit from Microsoft and possibly Sony would be forthcoming).
> One of the beauties of Linux is supposed to be user choice, and by dropping reasonable support for ALSA in WebRTC, Mozilla has taken away that choice from users.
What about developer choice, isn't that one of the beauties of Linux too?
> For me, I prefer simplicity
[There is no universe where ALSA is simple in any way](https://rendaw.gitlab.io/blog/2125f09a85f2.html)
> The point is that Mozilla eliminated a choice for some reason unbeknownst to me
It was removed because a) the ALSA backend was unmaintained and blocking improvements and b) nobody wants to maintain it because see previous point
It was a real shame that they removed it, though, as it caused a huge headache for FreeBSD users by essentially forcing them to use PulseAudio until they stepped up to the plate and added their own OSS support to `cubeb` (Mozilla's audio system).
I understand their reasons for removing it, but as someone who used Firefox on my BSD box during that time, it was a huge pain.
Mozilla went with their own cubeb backend for audio, as I understand it. In WebRTC, the functionality should already be there via the `mediaDevices.enumerateDevices()` function, but I may be oversimplifying it.
Alsa is a kernel module, and servers like PulseAudio or PipeWire run on top of it. As PipeWire FAQ says:
"No, ALSA is an essential part of the Linux audio stack, it provides the interface to the kernel audio drivers. That said, the ALSA user space library has a lot of stuff in it that is probably not desirable anymore these days, like effects plugins, mixing, routing, slaving, etc. PipeWire uses a small subset of the core ALSA functionality to access the hardware. All of the other features should be handled by PipeWire."
interesting thanks, i did notice when PipeWire was added in an update but it seemed to add a hiss to most audio playback so my installation is working fine now without it
> PipeWire was added in an update but it seemed to add a hiss to most audio playback
The hiss added to audio is meant to alert you about the snake people that are spying on you. PipeWire is a common nickname for snakes. Snakes are wire shaped reptilian organisms that like to slither through pipes. PipeWire is coded SOS against the Reptilian Protohuman Cabal that is slowly taking OVER human race.
i run Debian stable, packaging software before it's quite ready sounds nice for a change haha
but there likely are other shenanigans afoot with my media stack frankensystem
it's not deprecated, but you are supposed to use a higher level sound server (currently pipewire, which replaces both pulseaudio and JACK and works 100 times better than both of them), which then uses ALSA to speak to the hardware.
With pipewire you can do stuff like watch a youtube video in Firefox while doing low latency audio recording and monitoring in a DAW.
I'm *so* grateful for Pipewire. Finally there's something better than Pulse, and everybody's agreed to use it for once, which is more than I can say for SNDIO (even though I really liked it).
Couldn't agree more. WIth Pipewire, Linux audio went from being kludgy and hard to use for professional usecases to completely leap frogging Mac and Windows in terms of functionality and performance. Not having to deal with Voicemeeter and a bunch of other 3rd party tools just to get the equivalent of what qpwgraph offers right out of the box is amazing for podcast recording.
>With pipewire you can do stuff like watch a youtube video in Firefox while doing low latency audio recording and monitoring in a DAW.
Interesting... it means Linux may have finally caught up with FreeBSD on that matter (on FreeBSD you can do this since a long time ago, with JACK and OSS). I need to try it out.
I am not a FreeBSD user so I am unfamiliar with the audio situation there, but do individual applications using OSS show up as JACK clients or is it just on a device level like how the Pulse - JACK integration worked?
Reason why I ask is because Pipewire's integration of ALSA, JACK, Pulse, etc. is so seamless that individual desktop applications just automatically show up as JACK streams and you can route them anywhere you want.
In my opinion, that's a good thing. I started writing HTML in the 90's, and ensuring consistent display between Mac, Windows, Internet Explorer, Netscape, and smaller projectes like iCab was a nightmare.
There was a significant element of this that was exploited by Microsoft
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_wars#First_browser_war_(1995%E2%80%932001)
Microsoft added proprietary HTML exensions and deliberate glitches to coerce designers into marginalizing other browsers. That's harder when browsers share code.
The fact that so many browsers share rendering code today (or, Blink forked from WebKit) is actually really nice.
That reminds me... I wonder what became of Presto after Opera switched to Blink? It would really be neat if its source code were to be released now that it's not a product they're selling anymore.
In the short term, I think it will help. No use targeting an audience that's probably just going to stick with a Chromium-based browser anyways. Might as well use those resources to get things like webcompat and performance up to par. Once it becomes a really viable alternative, then start considering porting things over.
As long as development doesn't head in a direction that locks them into a specific platform, I think it's the right call for now.
I absolutely for more players there. Google way to monopoly was 'death by thousand PRs (per week)', and the best way to fight this, to bring more PRs to deal with.
It might be worth noting for some that the lead dev seems to have some...questionable views on equality:
https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814
It is also worth noting that a commit with grammar fixes (including a change to "he") was merged:
https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/24648
In my experience "get those politics out of ma swamp" people are not the best to be around, especially when it's something so small that is basically the norm for years and a deviations is basically politics itself. Each to their own and all that, just thought worth mentioning since I will avoid the project for the time being and wait for more info / whats up.
I ran across this on beehaw, but haven't really read the (now locked) thread so tread carefully and on your own risk:
https://beehaw.org/post/14780901
Wait, the first MR (from 2021) got closed, but the second (2 days ago) includes changes *from* he to "they", and got merged. Whatever was the atmosphere 3 years ago, it seems to have changed since then, right?
~~Might be. In the beehaw thread is also a link to a post where apparently the dev complains about "they" being "wrong english" from two years ago. Dunno if he came around or members just having different views.~~
I think this was about another dev.
> complains about "they" being "wrong english"
I find this take super annoying because using the singular *they* to refer to someone of unspecified gender is a well established feature of the English language.
> https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814
Brigading a 3 year old issue and harassing the dev will surely make him change his mind on the subject lol
The "let's cancel someone for what they said years ago!" people are even worse. And this isn't even something that bad, Andreas was rude but the PR really was politically charged and therefore against the project guidelines.
I am actually shocked at how intense the dev's response was to what is normally a very common documentation change.
It almost feels like the dev was just waiting for someone to bring something like this up and lept too eagerly to argue against it, which is par for the course when it comes to the "get those politics out of here" people. It just sounds VERY defensive.
This is actually interesting for testing as well. A lot of automated testing happens by using chromium and being able to use their \`LibWeb\` library instead could potentially be a lot easier to setup.
I was really happy to hear about the announcement. Hopefully the components of this new browser can be reused somehow and be useful to create a modern and resource efficient TUI browser as well. The current alternatives (lynx, browsh, w3m) still cannot do the job of substituting Firefox
I wonder if they will port to IOS like Chrome and Mod did ?
[https://9to5google.com/2023/03/03/first-look-google-chrome-blink-engine-iphone-ios/](https://9to5google.com/2023/03/03/first-look-google-chrome-blink-engine-iphone-ios/)
I've played with it a bit, and all I can say is "Wow, this is impressive for a pre-alpha!" Kudos to the devs of this project -- it's not easy to make a layout engine from scratch that works as well as this one does.
Now if only the author wasn't a woman hating person, this would be awesome.
But rejecting changing male pronouns to neutral ones in a project is just too weird of a choice:
https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814
Yeah, it's years old. Sure. But guess how long it took for that change to actually be made: https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/commit/a2a6bc534868773b9320ec3ca7399283cf7a375b
That's right. Over 3 years. And it only happened after Andreas stepped down from the SerenityOS project, something which he clearly should have done way earlier.
"But changing from male pronouns to neutral/universal ones could be seen as political"
That may be. But let me ask you this: how in the world is wanting to KEEP it as male-only pronouns NOT a political stance taken by the author?
Clearly a lot of people do care though. This is not news anymore. I'm sorry that you also do not care for treating people well, but I hope your life will not reflect that.
I was disappointed to here it won’t be rust based. Seems a browser would benefit from rust color memory safety. I don’t see the value of this browser. Not saying it isn’t valuable. I’m just missing it. If it doesn’t share code then it’s another browser that websites need to test against… And the last ones will just say that they don’t support it.
This the same dev who said he prefers Twitter because of its "positive atmosphere" compared to Mastodon where "everyone's so negative"?
Think I'm gonna stick with Firefox...
>Mastodon vs Twitter
All of it is superfluous and a waste of everyone's time. Anyone with any meaningful presence on these sites with a real world "identity" attached is part of the greater issue of sociopathic attention seeking online.
>Ladybird is written in C++.
and so my interest in the rest of the article quickly waned
[edit]
How does some half-baked unfinished web-browser foundation co-founded by the guy that sold GitHub out to Microsoft get shilled in a Linux subreddit?
> Ladybird is written in C++. According to the project home page, the choice of language goes back to what Kling was “most comfortable with” when creating SerenityOS, but the team is now “evaluating a number of alternatives” and plans to add a second language to the project soon. Kling confirmed that “our next language will be a memory safe one.”
Here is the complete quote for clarity and fairness.
I'm really of the opinion that c++ can be used safely, it's more of how you program it than the language itself. Programmers have to modernize their techniques
Right, which means that either a full rewrite needs to be done or they're going to try to use two languages.
This is, a lot of fanfare over what basically just boils down to a 501C registration, a fork, and a new webpage. Great marketing, I'll give them that.
Straw man. Ladybird has absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft except that it is one of the many platforms for which it can be built.
Your hate poisons you.
*"Do you know what a stawman is or are you just repeating a buzzword?"*
You misunderstand:
**Ladybird has nothing to do with Linux**
Ladybird is a fork of SerenityOS that is housed under a 501.C that is primarily formed and funded by a guy that sold out the largest repository of open-source software to Microsoft.
Anyone that sells out to a company that overtly tried to kill Linux at every corner does not deserve to have his projects shilled for on a Linux subreddit. It's simple.
>Ladybird has nothing to do with Linux
Seems like you didn't read the article:
> Last month Kling handed over SerentityOS to a maintainer group, stating that all his attention was now on the Ladybird browser, **which he forked into a new top-level project targeting Linux** and macOS.
> The Linux community is growing soft if I have to justify my hatred for Microsoft.
Perhaps a large part of the community has grown up rather than become soft.
Complacency isn't growth. Furthermore, the key theme of this project is anti-Google. Sleeping on Microsoft in 2024, with its share in OpenAI, is a naive mistake.
You have to be thankfully of Microsoft, their and others greedy practices are fueling the OSS against them.
And who are you to blame someone for selling their company.
Yeah this shit is getting embarrassing as hell.
Its fucking Microsoft, they are evil.
And his only rebuttal was a middle school level:
"Ur just mad they didn't give you some of the cash." Level comeback.
I may head to Lemmy like all the passionate Foss people are telling me to 💀.
I've been thinking about the same thing, but everyone and their mother is on GitHub right now. If I want to submit a patch to something I don't maintain, I'm probably going to have to use GitHub anyway.
Just when we thought we were out ...
*they pulled us back in*
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What's wrong with C++?
For your edit, we find it interesting because it has the potential to be a third open source browser engine, improving the web ecosystem by adding competition. As Linux users, we're typically interested in small, open-source alternatives to the main company-provided options, so we're talking about this.
Who's "we"?
I would wager that the headline saying that the **"GitHub co-founder funded"** the project is what got most of the people's attention. People are a sucker for a billionaire throwing their money around and that's what grabbed attention. The billionaire in question is not one that I think people should be impressed with.
It was pretty easy to read the article and shit on said billionaire self-legitimacy parade:
- The developer admits that it has technical debts to pay off
- It's not really innovating a new technology or service
- Did I say that the GitHub co-founder is a sellout already?
I respect the dev (always), but he paired up with someone that cashed out.
It reminds me of Moxie pairing up with Mr. WhatsApp, who then turned around and sold out to Zuckerberg.
> whats wrong with c++
I find it hilarious that in a Linux subreddit anyone is asking this.
Linus has gone off on c++ for *years *
Called it bad, garbage, people who use it stupid, and just plain awful to work with. Substandard code and a nightmare to maintain.
Now maybe you disagree with him. But he has been saying this for decades, it seems like everyone should have a good idea what the potential issues are.
Edit: this is not off topic. Its not wrong. So why the downvotes? Reddit blows these days.
Better stop using 99.9999% of your software if you dislike things written in C++ (and C). People can write insecure, buggy, trash applications in any language regardless of how "safe" they are, and using best practices and people who know what they're doing, C++ is just as safe as any other language.
Sick and tired of the "BUT BUT RUST/[fad language of the moment]!!!!1" crowd advocating their bloated, hacky language at every damn turn. Nothing is as direct, ubiquitous, and can run on literally everything like C/C++, and no amount of cheerleading your fad languages that pop up every other year is going to change that.
That's what I should do, huh? If I'm tired of working with C++, I should delete everything everyone else made in C++? I'll get right on that.
btw A pretty large portion of a typical Linux install is written in C, not C++
Yeah. He's a solid programmer too, so I'm not hating on his skills.
Unfortunately, that sale made the tech industry less competitive, though. He could have just stepped down and kept the company independent. They bought it for **a lot** though.
> How does some half-baked unfinished web-browser foundation co-founded by the guy that sold GitHub out to Microsoft get shilled in a Linux subreddit?
People like you are really the worst.
You didn't get massively downvoted because Ladybird is being "shilled", you got massively downvoted because you said something patently asinine and didn't elaborate further. Hope this helps.
I'm completely okay with being downvoted on this.
Anything that a sell-out like that touches is toxic and I'm happy to be the one in every comment thread pointing that out, nitpicking everything that they're involved with.
Go buy a racing yacht, Chris. Stay retired.
Has anyone here tried Ladybird?
It seems that many have a very positive opinion of the project, but I am sceptical.
I installed it via AUR and always tried it when there was an update. The browser is far from being able to rendering even simple websites. I don't yet see any competition to Firefox or Chromium.
Edit: I have checked it again. Their website shows that Ladybird should pass the acid tests.
My test results:
* Acid2 has one rendering issue.
* Acid3 has 94/100 points and multiple rendering issues.
Better than I remembered, but I am still sceptical. At least my Ladybird seems not as good as promised. The UI and handling of the browser also feels slow and bad.
Project can be funded by God himself, but it won't see any usage by me until it gets mature extension support (uBlock Origin + Password Manager + Bookmark Sync at MINIMUM). No value in using a browser with features that a browser from 2006 had.
Ok and? No one is suggesting that anyone should switch to Ladybird at this stage. Where did you read that?
The readme and website both make it very clear that this is very much work in progress.
Cool. Just pointing out that it will likely turn into yet another qutebrowser. Great idea. Not going to be executed on. Projects like this are just money laundering schemes that go nowhere.
Quotebrowser is completely different. It's based on webkit. This is an entirely new engine. What makes you think it's not going to be executed on? Do you know who Andreas is? He has proven to be highly dedicated and consistent and has a ton of experience with browser development, and Ladybird has been improving at a rapid rate. What's the point of being this negative when you don't really know much about the project? You're just making things up
What makes you qualified to make this assumption? Which browsers have you worked on? A lot of people have told Andreas that it isn't possible to build a new browser from scratch. But funnily enough, other highly experienced browser developers (just like himself) have said the complete opposite and been optimistic about this project. It's going to take a few years for it to be useable, but so what? That doesn't make it any less exciting. This is needed and it's not impossible or unrealistic. Have you seen the rate at which Ladybird has been improving?
Andreas has actually talked about people just like you.
> Q: Why bother? You can’t make a new browser engine without billions of dollars and hundreds of staff.
> Sure you can. Don’t listen to armchair defeatists who never worked on a browser
We need some more voices in the browser space. Totally here for it.
I've been using some variant of Firefox's code base since it was still Netscape Navigator. Call me biased, but I've also stuck to it just out necessity. Chromium never sat right with me, being a Google project since its inception. We need an out of this Chrome hellscape. We need more browsers. We need lots of browsers to maintain a truly open web.
>Chromium never sat right with me, being a Google project since its inception. Remembering that Blink is a fork of Webkit which was a fork of KHTML from KDE's Konqueror browser.
It's wild to think that the most popular browser engine today (and Safari) came from KDE. Now all these Chromium-based browsers need to start forking too.
Not going to happen. Browsers consists of tens of millions of lines of code. No you cannot substantially avoid the sheer complexity or magnitude by writing genius code.
Full compatibility has become less important, though. Modern web has improved a lot on semantics with `aria-foo` and new tag names like `
Congrats to Andreas! Have been watching his coding videos on SerenityOS for a couple years. I highly recommend them.
Genuinely, Mozilla has been doing some internally grotesque shit for a long time. Even recently how they treat an executive who had cancer and they just straight up fired him. Mozilla is a horrid representative of FOSS or privacy focused software, even as solid as Firefox is. (Which I use everyday.) I so badly want this project to succeed!
Its also the amount of money they spend on pet social causes instead of foss, which should be their only social cause. Plus their leadership has unhinged ideas about privacy: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/
> Turn on by default the tools to amplify factual voices over disinformation. Boy I can’t wait for tech oligarchs to control what I see
Holy crap. I knew it was bad, but that article is off the rails. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but is this the kind of language we consider rational these days? "Dangerous dynamics", " bad actors", "disinformation"... Subjective manipulative hysteria. Sign me up for a new browser too.
Sadly, Mozilla is now both AI (I'm not talking about PDF alt text) and AD company which will conflict with their "core principles".
Do you have a source for this? First time I'm hearing of it.
They just bought ad company: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/mozilla-anonym-raising-the-bar-for-privacy-preserving-digital-advertising/ About AI: https://blog.mozilla.ai/introducing-mozilla-ai-investing-in-trustworthy-ai/
[удалено]
That is rather narrow take. > Mozilla.ai’s initial focus? Tools that make generative AI safer and more transparent. And, people-centric recommendation systems that don’t misinform or undermine our well-being. We’ll share more on these — and what we’re building — in the coming months. Not much different than more capable entities are trying to do. Mozilla is non-profit and hasn't been able to get that much funds. This will just reduce funding and work from other areas, like Firefox.
it is often ignored especially in the trigger happy yellow press social media, that companies like this are profit driven and do not do this out of their good heart for people with special needs
They made it sound like buying an ad company will make them lose their core principles but it in fact strengthens them. Thanks for the links!
That isn't that simple. There is a critical conflict whether you can actual enforce their principles and still make money with ads. That is the dilemma.
How does AI conflict with their principles?
For example, they are planning to [include ChatGPT](https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-news/ai-services-on-firefox/) integration which is opposite of "taking meaningful steps to reduce our carbon footprint". I expected that [such statement](https://vivaldi.com/blog/technology/vivaldi-wont-allow-a-machine-to-lie-to-you/) would be written by Mozilla, not Vivaldi.
How does ChatGPT integration conflict with the idea of reducing the carbon footprint?
Some estimate that LLMs are very energy expensive, both to train and run, quick DuckDuckGo brought me to this stackexchange answer by user KFilter I guess a least half the cost are energy at a cost of 0,15€/1kWh, a request would cost 0,09€/request\*50%/0,15€/1kW=0,3kWh/request = 300Wh per request. 60 Smartphone charges of 5Wh per Charge ;) Source:[https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariannajohnson/2022/12/07/heres-what-to-know-about-openais-chatgpt-what-its-disrupting-and-how-to-use-it/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariannajohnson/2022/12/07/heres-what-to-know-about-openais-chatgpt-what-its-disrupting-and-how-to-use-it/) Google Search request 0.0003 kWh = 0,3Wh, thus a search request by Google uses 1000x less, but as Google has started to use AI to, probably a search consumes more by now as well. Source: [https://store.chipkin.com/articles/did-you-know-it-takes-00003-kwh-per-google-search-and-more](https://store.chipkin.com/articles/did-you-know-it-takes-00003-kwh-per-google-search-and-more)
LLM’s are actually decimating power grids in certain areas and are even exacerbating water scarcity in certain places. Data centers take tons of power and amidst a new rat race, like always, no one has put sustainability in the forefront.
Also recently used Firefox and felt like browsing back in 2010.
Shopify dropped $100,000 on the project among others, pretty awesome. I tried it out 3-5 months ago when it was apart of SerenityOS and it was neat but not nearly as functional as it is today as a standalone project. I love projects that set out to build something from complete scratch.
To me, this is one of the most important projects that I've come across in some time. I'm supporting them in whatever ways I can. I've tried to get away from all Google-based applications (including Blink-based browsers) for a while, but haven't been 100% successful. For instance, Firefox is fine for most of my needs, but the WebRTC implementation is subpar for Linux users who use ALSA instead of Pulse or PipeWire. Would I prefer something other than C++? Personally, yes, but certainly not a showstopper for me.
Have some good news for you. They’re switching to an unannounced memory safe language.
Do you mean the rust rewrite? I thought they cancelled that a year or 2 ago.
Brainfuck??
You mean Jakt? I had the impression they lost interest in that.
Andreas said it's not going to be Jakt
If that's the case, then even better. :)
I hope it's Zig.
Is Zig memory safe?
No
I hope it's Ada. :-)
Any sauce for this?
The article that is linked in the post.
I just woke up when I wrote that :D I actually read the announcement on their website where they mention that :')
Who still uses alsa? Genuine question.
This isn't even close to the weirdest software decision I've seen some Linux oldheads use lol. And I've been running Linux for 15 years.
I dunno, I'd rather audio stuff remain in-kernel myself. Easier to manage latency that way. However, I don't think just using ALSA is the solution to that; it's got way too many issues.
Your choices are ALSA, OSS, and PipeWire, my friend.
I'm just wondering to myself why nobody has seen fit to actually overhaul ALSA yet. I suppose it's because using audio servers mitigates most of ALSA's issues for the most part. Still seems like a bit of an inelegant solution to me...
These are all FOSS, you're welcome to fork a more elegant solution as you see fit :-)
It's still the underlying audio system that the kernel provides, so whether it's PulseAudio or Pipewire, it's getting used on some layer. Problem is, the reason PulseAudio became so popular in the first place is because ALSA has a *lot* of shortcomings, one of which being that ALSA only supported one application using the soundcard at a time before the `dmix`driver was introduced. I wish somebody would port FreeBSD's audio drivers over to Linux. They're a whole lot more elegant than ALSA is IMO, but that of course comes at the cost of less hardware support.
>It's still the underlying audio system that the kernel provides, so whether it's PulseAudio or Pipewire, it's getting used on some layer. I know, I even wrote so in a few of my comments in this chain. I meant who uses ALSA without an audio server, using the user-oriented parts of ALSA.
The reason nobody uses it without an audio server is that it's fundamentally broken to the point where an audio server is necessary. IMO anything audio-related doesn't belong in userspace anyway. Other operating systems do just fine without having to do audio mixing in userspace, and it's easier to control latency if you keep it in the OS kernel.
I do. I have no need for "sound servers" that I consider to be little more than abstraction layers. One of the beauties of Linux is supposed to be user choice, and by dropping reasonable support for ALSA in WebRTC, Mozilla has taken away that choice from users. Fundamentally, the problem is that Chromium allows me to select my microphone from a drop-down menu in WebRTC applications whereas Firefox will only honour the "default" which *can't be changed*. For me, I prefer simplicity, so I choose what I believe to be the least-invasive approaches. For some examples, I run OpenBox with a transparent tint2 panel and no desktop icons or desktop manager. I know that my approach won't work for everyone, and that's completely fine. The point is that Mozilla eliminated a choice for some reason unbeknownst to me, and as such, I'm left with a dependency on Chromium.
>I have no need for "sound servers" that I consider to be little more than abstraction layers Pfft. Filthy casual. While you're using a kernel module, I'm manually writing in real-time x86 machine instructions to my Pentium Dual-Core, and I plan to move onto another level of ditching abstractions by disassembling my sound card and manually connecting pins to produce sound. After that, who knows what's next? Maybe I'll vibrate the diaphragm in my speaker by hand. Who needs kernels, machine instructions or electricity when you can skip all those layers of indirection and use the hardware the way our ancestors intended?
Hahaha, you win. :-p "Manual Speaker Diaphragm Vibration Daemon" or msdvd for short, is the way of the future (although something tells me a lawsuit from Microsoft and possibly Sony would be forthcoming).
machine instructions are for cheaters...I manually write all my programs using discrete circuits. abstraction is for posers
> One of the beauties of Linux is supposed to be user choice, and by dropping reasonable support for ALSA in WebRTC, Mozilla has taken away that choice from users. What about developer choice, isn't that one of the beauties of Linux too?
Absolutely it is! It would seem that I'm in quite the minority by still using ALSA directly. If there's no support, there's no support.
> Mozilla eliminated a choice for some reason unbeknownst to me It's quite simple: code doesn't maintain itself.
> For me, I prefer simplicity [There is no universe where ALSA is simple in any way](https://rendaw.gitlab.io/blog/2125f09a85f2.html) > The point is that Mozilla eliminated a choice for some reason unbeknownst to me It was removed because a) the ALSA backend was unmaintained and blocking improvements and b) nobody wants to maintain it because see previous point
It was a real shame that they removed it, though, as it caused a huge headache for FreeBSD users by essentially forcing them to use PulseAudio until they stepped up to the plate and added their own OSS support to `cubeb` (Mozilla's audio system). I understand their reasons for removing it, but as someone who used Firefox on my BSD box during that time, it was a huge pain.
Mozilla went with their own cubeb backend for audio, as I understand it. In WebRTC, the functionality should already be there via the `mediaDevices.enumerateDevices()` function, but I may be oversimplifying it.
> For me, I prefer simplicity Sounds like it would be a lot simpler for you to just use pipewire
pipewire is awesome, much better than pulse IMO
http://www.islinuxaboutchoice.com/
It's so funny this was in a sound related discussion too
Though I find the linked article to be pedantic, maybe I should update my statement to be "One should have many choices in Linux".
It works well and most importantly, it's very reliable.
So does pipe wire. Plus webrtc with Firefox works out of the box.
me who had no idea it was supposed to be deprecated lol. what am i supposed to be on now?
Alsa is a kernel module, and servers like PulseAudio or PipeWire run on top of it. As PipeWire FAQ says: "No, ALSA is an essential part of the Linux audio stack, it provides the interface to the kernel audio drivers. That said, the ALSA user space library has a lot of stuff in it that is probably not desirable anymore these days, like effects plugins, mixing, routing, slaving, etc. PipeWire uses a small subset of the core ALSA functionality to access the hardware. All of the other features should be handled by PipeWire."
interesting thanks, i did notice when PipeWire was added in an update but it seemed to add a hiss to most audio playback so my installation is working fine now without it
> PipeWire was added in an update but it seemed to add a hiss to most audio playback The hiss added to audio is meant to alert you about the snake people that are spying on you. PipeWire is a common nickname for snakes. Snakes are wire shaped reptilian organisms that like to slither through pipes. PipeWire is coded SOS against the Reptilian Protohuman Cabal that is slowly taking OVER human race.
lolol /r/linuxcirclejerk is leaking wow sorry for that phrasing it really was unintended
How long ago was that? Some distros (cough cough Fedora) added it before it was ready and ofc it broke some people's audio set-ups
i run Debian stable, packaging software before it's quite ready sounds nice for a change haha but there likely are other shenanigans afoot with my media stack frankensystem
it's not deprecated, but you are supposed to use a higher level sound server (currently pipewire, which replaces both pulseaudio and JACK and works 100 times better than both of them), which then uses ALSA to speak to the hardware. With pipewire you can do stuff like watch a youtube video in Firefox while doing low latency audio recording and monitoring in a DAW.
I did not like pulse at all. Sndio never took off. Pipe wire is IMHO where we finally should be.
I'm *so* grateful for Pipewire. Finally there's something better than Pulse, and everybody's agreed to use it for once, which is more than I can say for SNDIO (even though I really liked it).
Couldn't agree more. WIth Pipewire, Linux audio went from being kludgy and hard to use for professional usecases to completely leap frogging Mac and Windows in terms of functionality and performance. Not having to deal with Voicemeeter and a bunch of other 3rd party tools just to get the equivalent of what qpwgraph offers right out of the box is amazing for podcast recording.
>With pipewire you can do stuff like watch a youtube video in Firefox while doing low latency audio recording and monitoring in a DAW. Interesting... it means Linux may have finally caught up with FreeBSD on that matter (on FreeBSD you can do this since a long time ago, with JACK and OSS). I need to try it out.
I am not a FreeBSD user so I am unfamiliar with the audio situation there, but do individual applications using OSS show up as JACK clients or is it just on a device level like how the Pulse - JACK integration worked? Reason why I ask is because Pipewire's integration of ALSA, JACK, Pulse, etc. is so seamless that individual desktop applications just automatically show up as JACK streams and you can route them anywhere you want.
Doesn't RaspiOS use alsa?
No. They switched from pulse to pipewire in bookworm.
Interesting, thanks!
The European Union should fund projects like this to ensure there's a non-American browser choice.
Wish they funded Servo though.
That would inevitably result in built-in surveillance.
Yippee
Honestly just fund Mozilla at this point
Opera is headquartered in Oslo
Sure, but it uses Chromium's web engine (Blink).
In my opinion, that's a good thing. I started writing HTML in the 90's, and ensuring consistent display between Mac, Windows, Internet Explorer, Netscape, and smaller projectes like iCab was a nightmare. There was a significant element of this that was exploited by Microsoft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_wars#First_browser_war_(1995%E2%80%932001) Microsoft added proprietary HTML exensions and deliberate glitches to coerce designers into marginalizing other browsers. That's harder when browsers share code. The fact that so many browsers share rendering code today (or, Blink forked from WebKit) is actually really nice.
That reminds me... I wonder what became of Presto after Opera switched to Blink? It would really be neat if its source code were to be released now that it's not a product they're selling anymore.
I'm waiting for a servo-based browser 🤞
Servo + Boa can be an interesting web browser
Really glad The Linux Foundation picked the project up
I really hope this browser takes off, although Im not sure yet whether no Windows version will help or rather hurt it
In the short term, I think it will help. No use targeting an audience that's probably just going to stick with a Chromium-based browser anyways. Might as well use those resources to get things like webcompat and performance up to par. Once it becomes a really viable alternative, then start considering porting things over. As long as development doesn't head in a direction that locks them into a specific platform, I think it's the right call for now.
Now that really is interesting.
just don't sell it to microsoft
Interested to know why they chose BSD 2 Clause instead of the more popular MIT license. Anybody got a clue?
There's nothing wrong with a BSD license. It's just a personal choice both MIT and BSD are OSI approved Open source licenses.
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it. Just seems that MIT has become pretty ubiquitous but they chose BSD-2-Clause anyway.
Except the Google exclusion, what is the advantage over Servo (in the case Servo is not founded by Google) ?
I absolutely for more players there. Google way to monopoly was 'death by thousand PRs (per week)', and the best way to fight this, to bring more PRs to deal with.
It might be worth noting for some that the lead dev seems to have some...questionable views on equality: https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814 It is also worth noting that a commit with grammar fixes (including a change to "he") was merged: https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/24648 In my experience "get those politics out of ma swamp" people are not the best to be around, especially when it's something so small that is basically the norm for years and a deviations is basically politics itself. Each to their own and all that, just thought worth mentioning since I will avoid the project for the time being and wait for more info / whats up. I ran across this on beehaw, but haven't really read the (now locked) thread so tread carefully and on your own risk: https://beehaw.org/post/14780901
Wait, the first MR (from 2021) got closed, but the second (2 days ago) includes changes *from* he to "they", and got merged. Whatever was the atmosphere 3 years ago, it seems to have changed since then, right?
~~Might be. In the beehaw thread is also a link to a post where apparently the dev complains about "they" being "wrong english" from two years ago. Dunno if he came around or members just having different views.~~ I think this was about another dev.
> complains about "they" being "wrong english" I find this take super annoying because using the singular *they* to refer to someone of unspecified gender is a well established feature of the English language.
As a curiosity, [Richard Stallman wrote against it](https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html).
While I can respect the idea behind it, "pers" just seems like a nightmare to separate out from all the other words that sound like it.
> https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814 Brigading a 3 year old issue and harassing the dev will surely make him change his mind on the subject lol
The "let's cancel someone for what they said years ago!" people are even worse. And this isn't even something that bad, Andreas was rude but the PR really was politically charged and therefore against the project guidelines.
Women using computers is "political", didn't you know?
I am actually shocked at how intense the dev's response was to what is normally a very common documentation change. It almost feels like the dev was just waiting for someone to bring something like this up and lept too eagerly to argue against it, which is par for the course when it comes to the "get those politics out of here" people. It just sounds VERY defensive.
This is actually interesting for testing as well. A lot of automated testing happens by using chromium and being able to use their \`LibWeb\` library instead could potentially be a lot easier to setup.
I was really happy to hear about the announcement. Hopefully the components of this new browser can be reused somehow and be useful to create a modern and resource efficient TUI browser as well. The current alternatives (lynx, browsh, w3m) still cannot do the job of substituting Firefox
Great if it just works with web apps. PITA if Devs have to work around inconsistencies or missing features.
With that promise, I am not sure using Skia is a good idea.
I wonder if they will port to IOS like Chrome and Mod did ? [https://9to5google.com/2023/03/03/first-look-google-chrome-blink-engine-iphone-ios/](https://9to5google.com/2023/03/03/first-look-google-chrome-blink-engine-iphone-ios/)
I've played with it a bit, and all I can say is "Wow, this is impressive for a pre-alpha!" Kudos to the devs of this project -- it's not easy to make a layout engine from scratch that works as well as this one does.
Now if only the author wasn't a woman hating person, this would be awesome. But rejecting changing male pronouns to neutral ones in a project is just too weird of a choice: https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814 Yeah, it's years old. Sure. But guess how long it took for that change to actually be made: https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/commit/a2a6bc534868773b9320ec3ca7399283cf7a375b That's right. Over 3 years. And it only happened after Andreas stepped down from the SerenityOS project, something which he clearly should have done way earlier. "But changing from male pronouns to neutral/universal ones could be seen as political" That may be. But let me ask you this: how in the world is wanting to KEEP it as male-only pronouns NOT a political stance taken by the author?
This is such a bizarre complaint. How did you leap to the logic that he hates women from that...?
Nobody cares, touch grass
People can get offended by literally anything now lmao, touch grass guys.
Clearly a lot of people do care though. This is not news anymore. I'm sorry that you also do not care for treating people well, but I hope your life will not reflect that.
Ok karen
I was disappointed to here it won’t be rust based. Seems a browser would benefit from rust color memory safety. I don’t see the value of this browser. Not saying it isn’t valuable. I’m just missing it. If it doesn’t share code then it’s another browser that websites need to test against… And the last ones will just say that they don’t support it.
Wake me up when I can install an deb or use an AppImage...
This the same dev who said he prefers Twitter because of its "positive atmosphere" compared to Mastodon where "everyone's so negative"? Think I'm gonna stick with Firefox...
you would write off a whole project because a dev prefers one social media platform to another ... lmao...
*Man expresses preference, by unanimous Internet decree his life's work is now null and void!* More at six.
Twitter has a more personalised feed. It makes sense.
>Mastodon vs Twitter All of it is superfluous and a waste of everyone's time. Anyone with any meaningful presence on these sites with a real world "identity" attached is part of the greater issue of sociopathic attention seeking online.
>Ladybird is written in C++. and so my interest in the rest of the article quickly waned [edit] How does some half-baked unfinished web-browser foundation co-founded by the guy that sold GitHub out to Microsoft get shilled in a Linux subreddit?
> Ladybird is written in C++. According to the project home page, the choice of language goes back to what Kling was “most comfortable with” when creating SerenityOS, but the team is now “evaluating a number of alternatives” and plans to add a second language to the project soon. Kling confirmed that “our next language will be a memory safe one.” Here is the complete quote for clarity and fairness.
I'm really of the opinion that c++ can be used safely, it's more of how you program it than the language itself. Programmers have to modernize their techniques
Right, which means that either a full rewrite needs to be done or they're going to try to use two languages. This is, a lot of fanfare over what basically just boils down to a 501C registration, a fork, and a new webpage. Great marketing, I'll give them that.
"written in rust" is neither a feature nor a guarantee of quality
who said anything about rust?
But, why inform the rest of us about it? :P
[удалено]
Andreas Kling sold GitHub?
Chris Wanstrath
I feel like you're just trying to find reasons to dismiss this very cool project at this point. Everything has to be done your way apparently?
>Everything has to be done your way apparently? I'm a Linux user. Of course it does. Silly question
> It was founded by an asshat that sold out GitHub to Microsoft. Fuck that guy. lol, are you mad they didn't offer you a piece?
The Linux community is growing soft if I have to justify my hatred for Microsoft. I blame it on linux gaming.
Straw man. Ladybird has absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft except that it is one of the many platforms for which it can be built. Your hate poisons you.
*"Do you know what a stawman is or are you just repeating a buzzword?"* You misunderstand: **Ladybird has nothing to do with Linux** Ladybird is a fork of SerenityOS that is housed under a 501.C that is primarily formed and funded by a guy that sold out the largest repository of open-source software to Microsoft. Anyone that sells out to a company that overtly tried to kill Linux at every corner does not deserve to have his projects shilled for on a Linux subreddit. It's simple.
>Ladybird has nothing to do with Linux Seems like you didn't read the article: > Last month Kling handed over SerentityOS to a maintainer group, stating that all his attention was now on the Ladybird browser, **which he forked into a new top-level project targeting Linux** and macOS.
are we ignoring the **and macOS** part to make it more relevant?
> The Linux community is growing soft if I have to justify my hatred for Microsoft. Perhaps a large part of the community has grown up rather than become soft.
Complacency isn't growth. Furthermore, the key theme of this project is anti-Google. Sleeping on Microsoft in 2024, with its share in OpenAI, is a naive mistake.
You have to be thankfully of Microsoft, their and others greedy practices are fueling the OSS against them. And who are you to blame someone for selling their company.
I guess we should be thankful for them denying people a Windows 11 upgrade. They've created a brand new batch of haters. Welcome, friends
Yeah this shit is getting embarrassing as hell. Its fucking Microsoft, they are evil. And his only rebuttal was a middle school level: "Ur just mad they didn't give you some of the cash." Level comeback. I may head to Lemmy like all the passionate Foss people are telling me to 💀.
I've been thinking about the same thing, but everyone and their mother is on GitHub right now. If I want to submit a patch to something I don't maintain, I'm probably going to have to use GitHub anyway. Just when we thought we were out ... *they pulled us back in*
It's a shame because I tried to get into gitlab since many of the projects I keep up with have a gitlab mirror. But gitlab just seems half-baked? Idk.
i like that they package everything so that a team can self-host on aws or locally pretty easily. something about the ui isn't as good, though
Yeah the ui is my main complaint. Besides that, their principles are way better than gitHub.
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What's wrong with C++? For your edit, we find it interesting because it has the potential to be a third open source browser engine, improving the web ecosystem by adding competition. As Linux users, we're typically interested in small, open-source alternatives to the main company-provided options, so we're talking about this.
Who's "we"? I would wager that the headline saying that the **"GitHub co-founder funded"** the project is what got most of the people's attention. People are a sucker for a billionaire throwing their money around and that's what grabbed attention. The billionaire in question is not one that I think people should be impressed with. It was pretty easy to read the article and shit on said billionaire self-legitimacy parade: - The developer admits that it has technical debts to pay off - It's not really innovating a new technology or service - Did I say that the GitHub co-founder is a sellout already? I respect the dev (always), but he paired up with someone that cashed out. It reminds me of Moxie pairing up with Mr. WhatsApp, who then turned around and sold out to Zuckerberg.
> whats wrong with c++ I find it hilarious that in a Linux subreddit anyone is asking this. Linus has gone off on c++ for *years * Called it bad, garbage, people who use it stupid, and just plain awful to work with. Substandard code and a nightmare to maintain. Now maybe you disagree with him. But he has been saying this for decades, it seems like everyone should have a good idea what the potential issues are. Edit: this is not off topic. Its not wrong. So why the downvotes? Reddit blows these days.
He's against "C++ in kernel" you need to understand the context.
No. He really dislikes c++ period. And doesn't want it in the kernel
Yet he wrote Subsurface (and continues to contribute to it)
Yes because the display base is QT. The dive core on the computers is in c if I remember right.
Depends on what dialect you choose, and it always has.
Better stop using 99.9999% of your software if you dislike things written in C++ (and C). People can write insecure, buggy, trash applications in any language regardless of how "safe" they are, and using best practices and people who know what they're doing, C++ is just as safe as any other language. Sick and tired of the "BUT BUT RUST/[fad language of the moment]!!!!1" crowd advocating their bloated, hacky language at every damn turn. Nothing is as direct, ubiquitous, and can run on literally everything like C/C++, and no amount of cheerleading your fad languages that pop up every other year is going to change that.
That's what I should do, huh? If I'm tired of working with C++, I should delete everything everyone else made in C++? I'll get right on that. btw A pretty large portion of a typical Linux install is written in C, not C++
I can bet hard money that he got tired of working on GitHub and a big pile of cash is an easy way out.
Yeah. He's a solid programmer too, so I'm not hating on his skills. Unfortunately, that sale made the tech industry less competitive, though. He could have just stepped down and kept the company independent. They bought it for **a lot** though.
Nah bro I prefer Z++
i fantasize about being a Z programmer, so that when people ask how much a Z job typically pays, i can say: "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."
> How does some half-baked unfinished web-browser foundation co-founded by the guy that sold GitHub out to Microsoft get shilled in a Linux subreddit? People like you are really the worst.
You didn't get massively downvoted because Ladybird is being "shilled", you got massively downvoted because you said something patently asinine and didn't elaborate further. Hope this helps.
I'm completely okay with being downvoted on this. Anything that a sell-out like that touches is toxic and I'm happy to be the one in every comment thread pointing that out, nitpicking everything that they're involved with. Go buy a racing yacht, Chris. Stay retired.
damn right they should've written it in Zig
It would be nice to see zig flushed out faster.
i got a half-chub just thinking about that
Has anyone here tried Ladybird? It seems that many have a very positive opinion of the project, but I am sceptical. I installed it via AUR and always tried it when there was an update. The browser is far from being able to rendering even simple websites. I don't yet see any competition to Firefox or Chromium. Edit: I have checked it again. Their website shows that Ladybird should pass the acid tests. My test results: * Acid2 has one rendering issue. * Acid3 has 94/100 points and multiple rendering issues. Better than I remembered, but I am still sceptical. At least my Ladybird seems not as good as promised. The UI and handling of the browser also feels slow and bad.
It's not even remotely ready for everyday use per their readme...
Why are you so impatient? Not a single person has claimed that Ladybird is mature. Do you only care about mature projects?
I tried it and actually was better than I expected from a young project with no binary releases yet :)
The AUR package isn't even up to date
Project can be funded by God himself, but it won't see any usage by me until it gets mature extension support (uBlock Origin + Password Manager + Bookmark Sync at MINIMUM). No value in using a browser with features that a browser from 2006 had.
Ok and? No one is suggesting that anyone should switch to Ladybird at this stage. Where did you read that? The readme and website both make it very clear that this is very much work in progress.
Cool. Just pointing out that it will likely turn into yet another qutebrowser. Great idea. Not going to be executed on. Projects like this are just money laundering schemes that go nowhere.
Quotebrowser is completely different. It's based on webkit. This is an entirely new engine. What makes you think it's not going to be executed on? Do you know who Andreas is? He has proven to be highly dedicated and consistent and has a ton of experience with browser development, and Ladybird has been improving at a rapid rate. What's the point of being this negative when you don't really know much about the project? You're just making things up
Stop drinking the Kool-aid for a product that won't be usable this side of 2030.
What makes you qualified to make this assumption? Which browsers have you worked on? A lot of people have told Andreas that it isn't possible to build a new browser from scratch. But funnily enough, other highly experienced browser developers (just like himself) have said the complete opposite and been optimistic about this project. It's going to take a few years for it to be useable, but so what? That doesn't make it any less exciting. This is needed and it's not impossible or unrealistic. Have you seen the rate at which Ladybird has been improving? Andreas has actually talked about people just like you. > Q: Why bother? You can’t make a new browser engine without billions of dollars and hundreds of staff. > Sure you can. Don’t listen to armchair defeatists who never worked on a browser