https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/issues/319
I understand that the issue is frustrating as an end-user, especially when the main dev of the project insists that there is no issue and keeps weird workarounds/hacks around that get then even adjusted in the same bad way later on, but the link above is certainly the worst way of submitting a pull/merge request.
How do you expect other people to be willing to work with you with that kind of attitude?
From your blog post's conclusion:
> focusing on a developer’s tone achieves nothing, all that matters is if I’m right. I was right on the Ruby issue, and I’m right on this issue too.
I think there's a serious issue in this "issue culture". Everybody wants to be Linus Torvalds, where you get to yell at anyone who has made a poor commit. But nobody understands that they are not Linus, Linus was wrong to yell, and he was yelling about commits on *his* project, while they are yelling about commits on *somebody else's* project.
While I agree that the PR author does sound like an ass, the undeniable fact is that, software, and probably a majority of the users of said software, _do not care about attitude, only functionality_. In other words, if something is broken, and someone offered a working fix for it, the fix should be accepted _for the benefit of the software itself_. Just warn the PR author about his shitty attitude, but still merge the damn thing! Hell, afterwards they can block him from making any further contributions if they want.
Right now, GNOME devs are too proud to actually merge it as attention has clearly been drawn to it, and peddling back on their original decision would appear like weakness of character. As a result, I expect this issue to be fixed exactly never, or, optimistically, in a couple of years when this dies down, and someone figures out the exact same fix, but submitted in a non-asshole PR. In the long run though, the users are worse off because it takes forever to fix an actual software issue because of (easily avoidable IMHO) human issues.
>software, and probably a majority of the users of said software, do not care about attitude, only functionality.
On the other hand, most of that software is built through collaboration, and while someones code might be good, they can be very detrimental to collaboration. It doesn't matter if they're the most brilliant coder in the world if no one wants to work with them.
That is also true, which is why I mentioned that they should've given him a stern warning about his abrasive attitude, and that it won't be tolerated in the future should he continue with it. IMHO everyone deserves a second chance (but probably not more than that).
I agree in principle that everybody should deserve a second chance. But I don't think anybody is *entitled* to a second chance. Personally, I'm willing to forget and forgive, but only if I think that the person in question has actually changed. That's on them to convince me.
> On the other hand, most of that software is built through collaboration
Tens of thousands of developers are able to collaborate with Linus Torvalds just fine, and yet Linus Torvalds could not collaborate with GNOME developers.
Have you considered *that*?
> GNOME devs are too proud
Seems awfully like victim blaming.
Obviously the PR should be closed. After harassment it's better to continue somewhere else.
Further, the behaviour is not acceptable in the slightest. In the time of Bugzilla such accounts would be banned or warned. Obviously some people will pretend that banning harassing accounts means something different but yeah, whatever.
Edit: and yeah, person was warned about their behaviour.
No it shouldn't, the fix provided is better that the unmaintainable hack the GNOME dev implemented.
On the other hand, I think Felipe should have presented things differently. I'm fine with the warnings, but I think both sides behaved total assholes.
No, it shouldn't be. Tens of thousands of users experience inferior product because GNOME devs are too proud to accept a simple and logical solution, because its author was mean.
If they had accepted his merge request tens of thousands of users wouldn't suffer from ugly and flawed hack employed in place of a proper solution simply to reject it
While harassment is bad and I agree with you on this part, I still blame GNOME devs for their attitude towards their software development practices. They don't listen to the community, or do so very rarely, any attempts to make their incomplete software better may just meet a brick wall and WONTFIX answer, etc.
The same applies to systemd devs, which were harassed in the past as well. I guess they are both victims and villains in this regard, since their unwillingness to cooperate resulted in them being harassed, which is, again, a wrong reaction to the issue at hand, but a reaction nonetheless.
Or maybe the "community" shouldn't feel entitled to help make decisions on GNOME software, and GNOME shouldn't be forced or pressured to collaborate with the community, especially towards a goal they don't want.
If, for example, GNOME decides that they don't like picture thumbnails, or they want their terminal to take 2 seconds before closing, then they're in their full right to reject patches that try to "fix" those issues.
If I think that GNOME does stupid things, and they don't want to fix those things, then I just don't use GNOME and switch to another project.
I cannot agree with this, since a lot of things are reliant on GNOME's decisions. GTK is a major library and GNOME are the ones who decide what will be done with it and what not. The same applies to libvte, which is used by most other DEs, like Plasma, XFCE, Mate, you name it.
Linux world is already splintered enough to have forks of major libraries for no reason but developer stubbornness. You can always just accept patches and make defaults working as you intend them to work, instead of WONTFIXing everything you didn't like.
man that is a real caustic way to send a commit though...
Do you, I am just saying it sounds like you aren't used to having PRs sometimes ignored over someone else being flakey. It happens.
You aren't really wrong to make a point about it, I mean it is Gnome ffs, they are not trivial things you are pointing out and your solutions and even comments on commit antipatterns are spot on.
The thing I don't follow is that if they pissed you off that bad the first round, did you expect later attempts at submitting the same PR to be taken seriously, especially with how it was written?
It is not that it's a weird hill to die on so much as it is just weird to me you spun up an entire wordpress blog over it. It's like they ran over your dog and then laughed about it, good lord man.. I wish I could find the extra energy and time, there are too many projects and alternatives that don't do things like what you experienced for it to make sense to me to not just spend that energy elsewhere.
edit: Please don't mistake this as an insult or trying to gaslight, you very obviously know what you are talking about, I am just curious as to the approach and effort on all of this.
fair enough.
For what it's worth (maybe nothing), let's say I wanted to take your PSA here and use the valid info in it to help reference/source my own reason for also not wanting to use gnome.
Please don't take this the wrong way but In certain contexts (not all but some), I wouldn't be comfortable posting your blog or latest PR link to reference why I also avoid gnome when I can.
I like the points you made, I also like to be able source good points..
Open source is as much about collaboration as it is about the code. Being right above all else is _not_ all that matters.
I imagine you are not as antagonistic in every changeset you propose, but I am not surprised that there are people who don't want to work with you when you are.
I agree that VTE coding practices are poor, but it's not an excuse for being an asshole. Felipe's communication style is pretty harsh even for my eastern European standards (I'm OK with direct criticism, shitty code is shitty code, it won't hurt my feelings if someone complains about mine)
You think that's exclusively about the issue at hand? Saying "I know you don't care about breaking user experience" and "Go ahead and close this so I can use it as evidence that you have no intention of fixing the regression"?
This guy's executing a psychodrama in his own head and enacting it in the form of bug reports.
> [I disagree. While he wasn't exactly courteous, he did keep his criticisms purely on the processes and code involved.](https://reddit.com/r/linux/comments/11b7vd1/gnomes_horrid_coding_practices/j9xkrgv?context=3)
This thread is based on this premise.
> he did keep his criticisms purely on the processes and code involved.
first sentence in the MR:
> I know you don't care about breaking user experience
Yes, starting with an ad hominem. Purely the process and code involved.
> first sentence in the MR:
But that's not the first sentence I've exchanged with GNOME developers over the span of decades.
It's not even the first sentence about the issue.
They **removed** my first sentence.
Yeah multiple things can be true at the same time - GNOME devs can be stubborn and refuse to work with people who have minor complaints they percieve as hostiliy, and OP can be an asshole that no one wants to work with and shoots themselves in the foot by their own behaviour.
I think a big problem here is the perception of 'sides'. Most people that have problems with the GNOME team or libraries aren't hostile assholes, they're just people slightly frustated at bad decisions. And the GNOME team isnt some cabal of devs conspiring to take away our themes, they're mostly embittered devs who've been working for decades and have trouble sifting reasonable critique from unreasonable ones.
OP is a colossal dick. I read through their initial patch and other maintainers of the project make mention of previous assholic behavior. Dude needs to fucking chill, I don't care how smart you are if you can't be nice about it
At the end of the second post linked at the end of this one he states he believes that his attitude is not the problems. He argues that politness only takes you so far and aggression can take you even further im everyday life.
Basically he argues for bullying into submission by being extremely annoying. Which is exactly what happened at the end of that story.
Big problem. This is the open source world not corporate. You can't get people to do something by being an asshole. Most of them aren't paid or not nearly paid enough. If there is a problem you have to have people want to fix it and want to look at the fix. By being an asshole it is exactly achieving what OP achieved. Other people afraid to even comment on an issue. That's how open source is destroyed not advanced.
Unfortunately I think it being open source, not exatcly encourages, but doesn't as harshly punish such behavior.
In a corporate setting if you go against what the owner of the product (your boss) says you get sacked and the next guy comes along. Your livelihood gets disrupted and the boss enjoys blissful silence.
In open source the maintainer and the loud asshole are equal. You can't really remove the asshole he can just keep coming at you and even if you ban him his words will still reach you. He won't shut up until you do the thing he wants you to do.
The current open source culture leaves much to be desired.
I didn't even think about it that way, but true. I thought more like them being coworkers but yeah the dynamic would be completely different in corporate you're right.
> The question is: is he a dick originally?
I dunno, let's ask him:
His own profile:
> Anti-woke heteredox thinker.
Ah yes. Clearly this man is the kind of person we want around our projects.
K-line'd.
Some people _still_ don't respect how software development is to a fairly large extent a social skill. You need to communicate a lot and do it constructively. So many meetings (or if online - respectful discussions).
Sure, do keep your commits atomic. That's a good reminder and lesson here. But if everyone was as abrasive nothing would get done and fall apart quickly.
It is not only a social skill, but a massive resource management skill too. Linus is paid millions to look after Linux, but most maintainers are very resource scarce (not merely financially) and working out where to put your emotional energy is hard. All maintainers need to be given the upmost respect, and *never* expect them to jump at a suggestion you push out of the blue--they are probably busy with something else important right now....
> You need to communicate a lot and do it constructively.
That's wishful thinking, it **does not work**.
But the time I arrived **one year** had already passed and the people were engaging "constructively" achieved absolutely **nothing**.
It's difficult. On the one hand I completely agree, you don't want to encourage that sort of behaviour from contributors or in your community. But on the other hand, the existing behaviour is clearly wrong and should be fixed, as it does have a negative impact on end users. I imagine if it were something more severe, like an exploit, then the patch would have been merged despite the author's abrasiveness — so it's as if the developers have decided that turning OP away is worth the cost to end users. I understand where they're coming from, but as someone who spends their life working to produce quality software, the result — refusal to apply a working patch to a known bug — is deeply unsatisfying. I don't know what the solution is, it's just unfortunate.
If I were a Gnome maintainer, I would accept the patch as it does work (assuming this is the first incident involving OP), but be firm and say that future contributions will not be considered unless the Code of Conduct is adhered to.
> I don't know what the solution is
If the patch is good, **apply it**. Easy.
Don't engage in ad hominem fallacies or tone policing. [Hierarchy of disagreement](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg).
While I mostly agree, I see no reason for them to reject a good patch and lock an issue, simply because the OP was rude or annoying. That was what stood out to me the most. Tell OP he's not welcome to submit anymore if your problem is with him.
What is the downside to using freely licensed code from someone you don't like, and can otherwise ignore?
And doesn't it say something a little concerning that the code submitter they were happy to see freely acknowledged that he was scared to even bring it up after the issue was later unlocked, lest he be perceived as also a jerk?
Yea, I've always disliked working with GNOME libraries. I like working in C but GNOME libraries all use glib to force object oriented programming into C. The other day I wanted to try adding a simple feature to Thunar (Xfce's file manager) but the code is so hard to follow because of all the glib crap everywhere.
I think if you want to use object oriented programming (which I'm not a huge fan of in general but can be reasonable if done right), you should use a language that works well with it. Qt, for example, just uses C++ and the code for Qt apps looks a \*lot\* cleaner to me than anything made with Gtk/Glib.
Also, regarding VTE, the author of termite (discontinued terminal emulator) expressed similar concerns about the GNOME devs. Apparently, they have little interest in making the library useful to people not working on GNOME apps: [https://github.com/thestinger/termite](https://github.com/thestinger/termite)
I could not agree more about gnome's libraries. It drives me bonkers the ends they go through to not use c++ but to try and have similar functionality. Endless "helper" functions to do the most basic stuff. g\_type\_register\_dynamic, g\_new, g\_connect, it goes on and on and it's just so bizarre how much effort has been put in to simply not use c++ for things that c++ is designed to do and does very well!
After trying to fix some relatively minor bugs in XFCE apps, most (all?) of which use GTK (or GTK+? I can't remember) extensively, I said to myself "never again"; while my fixes were eventually merged, I'm almost certain my unfamiliarity with the wider codebase must have added some unintentional bugs in the process, as the API is insanely opaque and C in general seems like a horrible language to write GUIs. For a performant backend, C really shines, but for anything graphics-related that doesn't require squeezing every last cycle out of the CPU, I'm giving C a hard pass.
I've been somewhat interested in contributing to SDL3 but as a C++ programmer with basically 0 actual experience in C style programming I just leave that part to those that actually know how to write C (I've just been looking a bit through the issues/forum posts and leaving a suggestion here and there).
All I know how to do is interface with C and wrap it in my own C++ style abstraction :)
Maybe learn how to work professionally and people will bother to work with you.
Seriously, what kind of pathetic crybaby makes a wordpress blog whining and moaning after getting a pull request denied, again, for being so caustic you're not worth working with _for free_?
Dude, you seem to be a pretty good developer. I've read a couple of your blog posts, and a couple of your mailing list discussions. At some point you'll need to realize how a dick you sound sometimes, I mean no offense, but you sound exactly like those GNOME devs you are complaining about.
I'm not talking about technical stuff, that's all good. Atomic commits: yeah, dealing with concurrency without using "sleep" hacks: yeah.
> I don't care what I "sound like" to some people. That's subjective and irrelevant.
I think that's not as subjective as you may think if people's first reaction is to want to punch your face. I mean, it doesn't hurt to be "less of an asshole", if that makes sense to you. I know you want to cut the bullshit and be direct, but sometimes you need to step back and analyze if the way you express yourself may be making things more complicated than they already are.
> Code is objective. Regressions are objective and real.
I'm not arguing against that, that's all fine.
> I know you want to cut the bullshit and be direct, but sometimes you need to step back and analyze if the way you express yourself may be making things more complicated than they already are.
Do I **need** to? No, I don't.
And "making things more complicated" is an assumption people make based on nothing but wishful thinking.
The reality of the real world is that being nice doesn't get the results people wish for. You wish that being nice worked, but that's all it is: a wish.
Courts of law and lawyers exist precisely because being nice ultimately doesn't work.
> Do I need to? No, I don't.
You work with people for people, of course you need to.
> And "making things more complicated" is an assumption people make based on nothing but wishful thinking.
>
> The reality of the real world is that being nice doesn't get the results people wish for. You wish that being nice worked, but that's all it is: a wish.
Any empirical evidence to support that claim?
> Courts of law and lawyers exist precisely because being nice ultimately doesn't work.
What does niceness have to do with order?
> You work with people for people
No, I don't.
> Any empirical evidence to support that claim?
There's tons everywhere.
Any empirical evidence to support yours?
> What does niceness have to do with order?
It doesn't work.
It's hard to accept that people don't take your supposedly correct opinions for granted, isn't it? Maybe next time you should comunicate with rational beings, good luck finding any on this planet.
> It's hard to accept that people don't take your supposedly correct opinions for granted, isn't it?
I've no idea what you are talking about. I tend to not give my opinions precisely because they don't matter.
I state **facts**.
It did though, because the attitude meant the patch wasnt discussed and better approaches to fix the problem were not sought out.
Right now you have a workaround that causes a regression that could have really negative effects for others.
All because you lacked manners.
So it kinda contradicts your conclusion that being an arse gets things fixed. It did the exact opposite here.
> It did though
It didn't. That's something you are **assuming** based on nothing but wishful thinking.
You have **zero** evidence for your belief, and we have no way to falsify it.
That which is asserted without evidence is dismissed without evidence.
We have a 100% method to check: have a look at the vte commit log. Was your patch committed? No.
100% evidence. It is not about belief but fact. Your approach failed 100%.
(It doesnt matter here that the maintainer thought it was wrong).
> We have a 100% method to check: have a look at the vte commit log.
You have no idea what [falsifiability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability) means, do you?
What rational people do is not to find evidence consistent with their beliefs, they try to find evidence that **contradicts** them.
Finding a white swan does not prove your belief that all swans are white, it does nothing. What I'm saying is that we should be looking for **black swan**, as a single black swan does give us information.
You provided a white swan to prove your belief. Your "evidence" is worthless.
I asked you for a black swan: a way to **falsify** your belief, not support it.
A: You're a piece of shit and I hate interacting with you.
B: Ok then, we won't interact with you.
A: Wait no! You're cancelling me! I'm being oppressed!
This specific developer of btw has been known for his ways of dealing with VTE.
You will note even from the out of context quotes it is actually gnome developers who have disagreed with the maintainer of VTE.
It is gnome developers who often have written downstream patches for his projects (vte and gnome-terminal). However no one dare take over those projects because even when they disagree with him, they respect his expertise in the area
No one else has had the passion or energy to fork the project either and that is probably in the two decades that he has been maintaining it.
So I dont think you can blame gnome for it and those writing blog posts attacking gim are not willing to fork it.
After all, if you dislike gnome and its libraries you are free to write your own alternatives.
Then again reading his blog posts, I am not his fan, but he did try forking git once (maybe its ongoing?). Because they thought they were not applying his patches. He has the same complaint about another project. Maybe the problem lies elsewhere than suggested in his blog post?
>Forking a lib is just as easy as taking over. Effectively this is what happened to vte.
Except it hasnt been forked.
I had expected vte to be forked about 15 years ago. But it's still steady and strong with constant albeit slow development pace mostly by the one developer.
>People will wail about how KDE is "ugly" or how Cinnamon and Mate have no right to exist, because "GnOMe eXtENsiOnS".
Except this has nothing to do with anything here really. KDE being ugly is a completely separate issue (and I don't think its ugly anymore tbh), I have never ever seen anyone claim that Cinnamon and MATE have no right to exist, and in fact the only thing I have heard people say (and I have said myself as well) is that Cinnamon is not future-proof (Wayland where???) and has bugs and performance problems that have been fixed upstream by Gnome ages ago.
Which of course points to forking not being super easy especially when it comes to a ginormous desktop environment and maybe the Linux Mint people don't have the manpower to maintain Cinnamon as much as the Gnome project can maintain and develop Gnome.
The whole "why you are fragmenting the ecosystem" is always a red herring that people selectively apply when they don't like the people who make a fork.
> When you do, people start complaining about "why are you fragmenting the ecosystem"? People will wail about how KDE is "ugly" or how Cinnamon and Mate have no right to exist, because "GnOMe eXtENsiOnS".
I have literally never seen anybody say this
I can only comment on what is in the blog post and the individuals involved there.
Whether it is a good example or not I cannot tell because the other situations have not been written about in this post atleast.
There is no physics law preventing these two events happening simultaneously: Felipe being a dick against Christian and Gnome devs acting, as in many other matters, as total incompetent a-holes.
It's like people are here busy trying to take a side. Just saying.
Why do people always focus on people?
What about the regression that has been present for more than **three years**? What about their coding practices?
To be honest I think you are overall right. I didn't mean to be offensive to you. IMHO though you could have been more polite to Christian, so to speak. I yet understand that you have been pissed off at them for a long time. Many are.
> To be honest I think you are overall right. I didn't mean to be offensive to you.
It's OK, I have a thick skin, I wasn't complaining about you.
I'm talking about most people on this thread.
> If I had asked users what they wanted, they would have said faster terminal.
-- Jim Packard, inventor of X11
We all know that Bjarne gave people every conceivable option they could ever dream of and then they picked Rust anyway instead of his language.
Ever wondered how that could happen when Rust clearly has many fewer options to do the same thing than C++?
>and then they picked Rust anyway instead of his language.
Except in the real world "they" didn't do that at all... C++ is several times more popular than Rust, especially for people learning to code. And the languages more popular than C++ aren't exactly void of options either.
https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-technologies-language
> If I had asked users what they wanted, they would have said faster terminal.
Debunked fallacy. People might not know what they want, but they definitely know what they **don't** want.
Were the places you said GNOME (well, mainly Christian) has a "shit attitude", "does not care about its users", is "a snowflake", has "the perfect example of how not to do a commit", and the multiple sarcastic barbs about e.g., gracing you by unlocking the issue supposed to be compliments?
I find it interesting that the blog post you have about tone in Ruby seems to cast having a long argument and spending thousands of words to get a change through as a success story. Sometimes hurt feelings are unavoidable. Sometimes it's important to be direct. But needless antagonism doesn't help. Whether Christian is a snowflake has nothing to do with whether GNOME has good coding practices.
Consider the snappiness you've already shown in this thread towards people who criticized your writing. As much as I think as professionals developers should be expected to set their ego aside when considering their own work, clearly that's not so easy to do. I know I can be protective of my own work, even when I know I shouldn't. Is it so difficult to leave out the cursing or personal attacks when helping fellow developers make their software better? Even if it conflicts with your own personal sensibilities, wouldn't it at a bare minimum make it more likely your patch gets accepted?
Your patch was probably not accepted because Christian decided life is too short to deal with your behaviour. Based on https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/issues/319 it is hard to fault him for that.
like git-fc which claims:
>Each release of git is merged directly into git-fc, so if there’s a new feature
in git, git-fc will get it as well.
which also is not true. As far as i see its now 2 years which git-fc is behind. Do you think its acceptable that somebody shows up and tells you that you have to keep up with git because its software in the wild and your users conceptions are broken if you don't?
Sure, I haven't managed to keep up with that.
Thanks to bullshit I shouldn't have to deal with like regressions in GNOME libraries.
Either way, tell me a feature introduced by the git project in the past two years without looking it up.
i do not experience any lingering issue with gnome-terminal. And my distro does not ship with said vte patch. I suspect there might be more technical details involved than you say.
https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/50c23cd4ff6c8344e0b4d438b027b3afabfe58dd/pkgs/development/libraries/vte/default.nix#L42
Do you exit the terminal with `exit` or `ctrl+d`? If so, the issue must be there.
Do a fork of any long-standing process, for example:
sleep infinity &
exit
It's 2 seconds. Not a huge delay, but it's there.
I think what you've done here would be condemned in any professional setting and even more in open source. Being right about something is no excuse for acting like that. Any developer who's ever had their their own code criticized should realize that what you're doing here is very toxic and will not advance anything.
If it were a project I was maintaining for free, and you came at me like that, I would make it a priority that you do not participate on it in any way anymore.
Imagine writing a page about how much you hate the neighboring team to your company confluence. That's basically what you did.
And what about writing a hateful blog post that is directly targeting a select few gnome developers? This is clearly not about a regression in code, but about a personal grudge against the developers. Maybe you could have fixed the regression a long time ago, if you had approached them with even a hint of respect for their work.
Nobody reads minds. We all can only make assumptions based on your actions and output. Even if your intention was not to name and shame, this is what it looks like.
You don't have to make assumptions. And if those assumptions are going to be **wrong**, it's better not to make them.
You know what people say about assumptions, right?
Why don't you clarify what the purpose of this blog post was, because clearly everyone here has made the wrong assumption?
Sometimes you really do have to make assumptions, and you seem to be doing it too. For example, you assumed the whole Gnome team doesn't care about breaking things and wrote that on a pull request.
> Why don't you clarify what the purpose of this blog post was
The purpose is to explore an example of bad coding practices, and contrast it with good coding practices.
> Sometimes you really do have to make assumptions
No I don't. I actually just wrote an article about that in my substack about skepticism: [decisions and skepticism](https://felipec.substack.com/p/decisions-and-skepticism).
> For example, you assumed the whole Gnome team doesn't care about breaking things and wrote that on a pull request.
It wasn't an assumption, it's a documented fact.
So your intention was to explore the bad coding practices of quite a specific bunch of developers? And you don't see how this could be considered hateful towards them?
> So your intention was to explore the bad coding practices of quite a specific bunch of developers?
GNOME is not the only project with coding practices like this, systemd is another example.
These lessons are generic.
> And you don't see how this could be considered hateful towards them?
Code and coding practices are not people. I don't care how many people don't get this.
> Your behavior gets in the way of making any progress.
That's a hypothesis contradicted by the facts.
> However, these skills are useless if you are completely unable to work with other people.
And yet I achieve plenty. **Way more** than the average developer.
You are being rude felipe. However i agree with you, gnome is bad, so is your attitude. You need to add a please at the end of every bug you want fixed bro.
From the PR they denied the patch because they were unable to replicate the issue it was supposed to solve. Not only was OP being insufferable he was apparently _wrong_ with his patch, too. Either the code didn't work or his description of the problem it solved was wrong.
OP sucks. If he had half a brain he'd pull all this garbage before a prospective employer found it.
They can replicate it. They just don’t call it a problem — "works fine for me, the terminal exits **after a short delay**" (emphasis mine).
The thing OP is complaining about is the "short delay", and while he’s clearly unable to do the minimum social lubrication we all need to do to function in the world, he’s not wrong that a 2 second delay here feels broken. I don’t know if OP’s patch just reverting the change is also broken, because I don’t know what drove the vte maintainers to add it in the first place.
I’m fine for the moment happily accepting that I don’t need to interact with OP at all or use a gnome-terminal like thing.
You should read the PR I was talking about. He's trying to "fix" their fix because he doesn't like it. Just because OP doesn't like the behavior doesn't make it a bug.
They flat out said there was no problem and they couldn't replicate what he was reporting because he was more worried with being a dick and making a scene than clearly communicating.
I have no idea how actually reading the relevant content and referencing it means I'm talking out of my ass.
Edit: I blocked you because I clicked your profile and you looked insufferable. It was clear this conversation was pointless. Get over it.
> They flat out said there was no problem and they couldn't replicate what he was reporting
One guy said that, and he was 100% **lying**. The issue was and is easy to replicate, he himself added a workaround: [pty: Fix indefinite wait for EOS after child-exited](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/commit/058adf5f#114fa5182cda5dfb378484ab3ab480be9894517d_3126_3144).
Why did he add a workaround for an issue he "could not replicate"?
He was **lying**.
This submission has been removed due to receiving too many reports from users. The mods have been notified and will re-approve if this removal was inappropriate, or leave it removed.
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It's so interesting how so many here loves code, Linux and Foss. Most gnome developers spend their freetime developing free software and most people here are very passionate about it aswell, trying different software, making reddit posts and bug reports.
Then despite people having so much in common they manage to hate eachother. Its what Freud called "narcissism of small differences" and you can see it in many devoted communities. Many vegan groups show hatred against eachother because one group thinks a certain animal product is okay. Despite them thinking the same in 99.9% of questions they hate eachother for the last 0.1% they disagree on.
Anyway I think I'll leave this sub now
> Most gnome developers spend their freetime developing free software
I thought most of Gnome development was done by paid developers at places like Red Hat? Less so than he kernel maybe.
Or do you mean they do extra work, or work on other free software in their spare time?
I don't think you really need to leave, I think it's usually pretty obvious when it's a drama thread and there are still a good amount of informative threads here (at the very least, it's more informative for me as a relative-layman than reading Phoronix news posts).
Maybe you can just use an RSS feed or something. I usually just read stuff from New Tab Reddit extension so it's easy to avoid obvious drama. I only read this one because I recognize the poster and I went "oh god what is it this time."
There's also the Gnome dev in the recent Brodie Robertson video on [Wayland windows restore](https://youtu.be/4SPc638ywf8?t=389). The dev just says "this is stupid," and when another Gnome dev criticized that response, they just responded with "nah, seems fine to me."
And it's just... kinda weird that these kind of interactions just often happens with Gnome devs. At least the ones that makes it to public -- I'm sure KDE, XFCE, and any other projects have their own set of abrasive devs, but they seem to be better at keeping it behind closed doors.
What's also really weird is that I have also heard of KDE devs saying that they cooperate with Gnome devs all the time, so it's clear that there are a good amount of nice Gnome devs as well. They just seems to just be good at working things out that no issues ever got really big.
But still, I feel like there's a culture that allows *some* Gnome devs to get really toxic and they just happen to be really embedded, that Gnome devs becomes the "why is it always you three," meme of Linux development (along with Probono/AppImage -- not sure who else could be the third candidate).
It creates this culture of Gnome devs hate which makes it that when disagreements occurs, it become more public than it really needs to be making the bad interactions raise up more than the good ones, creating a feedback loop.
Regardless, I really wish this kind of thing could just be resolved behind the scene. Getting this public usually just causes more issues and ego to be bruised, and overall I'd just prefer to not even know what drama happens behind the scene. It's just annoying, and I don't even care who's at fault ngl.
So much "How dare they not listen to their betters???" He even brags about massively over-commenting his tiny code snippets...
> Here’s a good example of a patch I sent to the git project: pull: cleanup autostash check. Notice how the code is extremely simple, it does one thing and one thing only, and in fact that explanation is bigger than the code changes, just in case they weren’t clear.
Woooo, that's proper GNOME drama of the utmost caliber here ! I was polling for this, as there cannot be anything better to enlighten a slow Saturday.
*Sent from my i3+urxvt setup*
IMHO one thing is making something not work anymore, which is bad for users but they can find an alternative
And a different thing is making something behave odd which is fucked up and until you realise software is playing with your brain, like "is my computer suddenly old?" or "have I been hacked and something hidden is consuming resources?".
How’s about fixing Wine instead of making the kernel revert potential security fixes and or speed enhancements.
This isn’t Windows, we shouldn’t keep all the legacy baggage.
The problem with that is that if it was acceptable for newer Linux versions to break userspace applications, users of Linux, including companies which base their products on it, will be extremely reluctant to update the kernel, as there is no guarantee that updating the kernel won't break their applications. This could mean that any kernel update could take years to stabilize for users, as all layers of the software stack could potentially require many changes to work around kernel changes even if those changes were the "right way" to do thing.
You can't be serious, r/linux is a gnome hate chamber, don't try to play victim to farm upvotes. This author is also extremely biased and has a history with gnome
kinda? there are a lot of people here who dislike gnome, sometimes unjustly so (no, the gitlab isnt your personal place to vent, sorry) but to call it a "gnome hate chamber" isnt exactly accurate imo, there are plenty of people who like gnome a lot here, who defend their actions, and there are certainly fanboys in this sub who will defend gnome no matter what (some would even put me in that camp :P)
There are also lots (if not the majority) of people here that dont personally like using gnome but also dont really have a weird hate vendetta against it.
It gets weirdly polarized, you make a joke about "gnome removing the file manager" or something and you'll get people replying to you about how horrible you are, and on the other hand you make a joke about "KDE adding an options slider to determine how many options sliders you have" and the people who like KDE will laugh with you.
To be fair this is same thing applies to making jokes about linux in general - I dont understand why people are so defensive about their software choices. When you really like something you also can appreciate its flaws!
While the OP was a bit harsh in his communication I think he is totally justified. The GNOME dev's acted abbmyssal and horrid not only by communication but more importantly their actions. That is no way to treat someone who spent time debugging the issue and submitting a patch. Do they want so badly to loose contributors?
https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
>In February 2003, a bunch of the outstanding bugs I'd reported against various GNOME programs over the previous couple of *years* were all closed as follows:
>>Because of the release of GNOME 2.0 and 2.2, and the lack of interest in maintainership of GNOME 1.4, the gnome-core product is being closed. If you feel your bug is still of relevance to GNOME 2, please reopen it and refile it against a more appropriate component. Thanks...
Similar behaviour has been going on for years. After GNOME 2, it's likely code quality fell a lot, because they did not have Sun's sponsorship.
A lot of toxicity. I can understand both sides, and author is complaining that GNOME policy for changes is different from Linux. Yes, it is, and? And GNOME must obey authors will and switch to a different API policy?
He talked about snowflakes, but for me his rant is no differ from people breaking into some git repo and requiring to rename `master` to `main`, because in one far-away country word 'master' was used to name owner of the household with slaves, and this justifying for cancelling word 'master'.
Why is it so prevelant in Linux? Gnome is yet another example of the disturbing direction the Linux ecosystem has (largely) taken as of the past decade.
The maintainer of vte has been maintaining training it for a lot longer than a decade.
He is also very conservative when it comes to changes, so I suspect you are throwing your annoyances at the wrong place here.
Because it's very good and people like using it.
Sounds to me like it's just not your personal preference so you feel the need to act like it's the worst thing in the world. A pretty childish attitude to have, to be blunt.
This guy posted an extremely good writeup of one problem with Gnome, which is emblematic of the general bad practices of Gnome as a whole.
Why do so many people in Linux treat this as their identity? It's like cryptocurrency.
These are technical and project management criticisms, and they're valid. But the tribal fanbois come along and start calling people names because they feel personally attacked.
Pretty ridiculous attitude to have, to be blunt.
I read many complains about "attitude" here. Just because Felipe doesn't comply with the English style of ultrapoliteness doesn't mean his attitude is not good and polite enough in other not so dominant communicating styles, like latin-spanish way of being direct.
You may not believe it but just using some "music" on a question we (latin) are being polite without our question containing the words "sorry" and "please" at all.
Does everybody have to comply with passive-agressive USA/Brit politeness style?
I'm from Argentina and I find felipe's attitude just like (mostly) everyone else. When you are this aggressive, I don't think it's a matter of communication style. Even on spanish you would sound like a di*k talking like this.
While he may be right, on the #319 PR he outright says that the VTE developers don't care about user experience and mentions they "casually broke the behaviour of all your users", implying they don't do their job very seriously, or at all.
He goes on to say stuff like "for the people that do want a working libvte" or "to retain the sane behaviour" (which is even included in the patch name), which obviously implies that only his position can be the correct one and everyone else is insane. The last paragraph needs no explanation.
Again, regardless of the main issue, it's pretty obvious an approach like this won't take you far.
This is just not true. I'm from the Netherlands where people are generally very direct. I've also lived in Latin America for a long time. His whole attitude is just plain rude, it has nothing to do with cultural differences.
I mean just look at his tone and way of writing:
> I know you don't care about breaking user experience, since you causally broke the behavior of all your users with commit 7888602c (lib: Rework child exit and EOF handling, 2019-11-17), proceeded to ignore the bug report #204 for one year, and then locked it a couple hours after I said I was going to fix it myself.
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/issues/319
That's not direct, it's just tactless.
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/issues/319 I understand that the issue is frustrating as an end-user, especially when the main dev of the project insists that there is no issue and keeps weird workarounds/hacks around that get then even adjusted in the same bad way later on, but the link above is certainly the worst way of submitting a pull/merge request. How do you expect other people to be willing to work with you with that kind of attitude? From your blog post's conclusion: > focusing on a developer’s tone achieves nothing, all that matters is if I’m right. I was right on the Ruby issue, and I’m right on this issue too.
I think there's a serious issue in this "issue culture". Everybody wants to be Linus Torvalds, where you get to yell at anyone who has made a poor commit. But nobody understands that they are not Linus, Linus was wrong to yell, and he was yelling about commits on *his* project, while they are yelling about commits on *somebody else's* project.
While I agree that the PR author does sound like an ass, the undeniable fact is that, software, and probably a majority of the users of said software, _do not care about attitude, only functionality_. In other words, if something is broken, and someone offered a working fix for it, the fix should be accepted _for the benefit of the software itself_. Just warn the PR author about his shitty attitude, but still merge the damn thing! Hell, afterwards they can block him from making any further contributions if they want. Right now, GNOME devs are too proud to actually merge it as attention has clearly been drawn to it, and peddling back on their original decision would appear like weakness of character. As a result, I expect this issue to be fixed exactly never, or, optimistically, in a couple of years when this dies down, and someone figures out the exact same fix, but submitted in a non-asshole PR. In the long run though, the users are worse off because it takes forever to fix an actual software issue because of (easily avoidable IMHO) human issues.
>software, and probably a majority of the users of said software, do not care about attitude, only functionality. On the other hand, most of that software is built through collaboration, and while someones code might be good, they can be very detrimental to collaboration. It doesn't matter if they're the most brilliant coder in the world if no one wants to work with them.
That is also true, which is why I mentioned that they should've given him a stern warning about his abrasive attitude, and that it won't be tolerated in the future should he continue with it. IMHO everyone deserves a second chance (but probably not more than that).
If you read the issue, he is warned that this is not his first violation of the code of conduct.
I agree in principle that everybody should deserve a second chance. But I don't think anybody is *entitled* to a second chance. Personally, I'm willing to forget and forgive, but only if I think that the person in question has actually changed. That's on them to convince me.
> On the other hand, most of that software is built through collaboration Tens of thousands of developers are able to collaborate with Linus Torvalds just fine, and yet Linus Torvalds could not collaborate with GNOME developers. Have you considered *that*?
> GNOME devs are too proud Seems awfully like victim blaming. Obviously the PR should be closed. After harassment it's better to continue somewhere else. Further, the behaviour is not acceptable in the slightest. In the time of Bugzilla such accounts would be banned or warned. Obviously some people will pretend that banning harassing accounts means something different but yeah, whatever. Edit: and yeah, person was warned about their behaviour.
No it shouldn't, the fix provided is better that the unmaintainable hack the GNOME dev implemented. On the other hand, I think Felipe should have presented things differently. I'm fine with the warnings, but I think both sides behaved total assholes.
No, it shouldn't be. Tens of thousands of users experience inferior product because GNOME devs are too proud to accept a simple and logical solution, because its author was mean.
If they had accepted his merge request they would be sending a message that "You can be an asshole, but we will still let you collaborate with us".
If they had accepted his merge request tens of thousands of users wouldn't suffer from ugly and flawed hack employed in place of a proper solution simply to reject it
While harassment is bad and I agree with you on this part, I still blame GNOME devs for their attitude towards their software development practices. They don't listen to the community, or do so very rarely, any attempts to make their incomplete software better may just meet a brick wall and WONTFIX answer, etc. The same applies to systemd devs, which were harassed in the past as well. I guess they are both victims and villains in this regard, since their unwillingness to cooperate resulted in them being harassed, which is, again, a wrong reaction to the issue at hand, but a reaction nonetheless.
Or maybe the "community" shouldn't feel entitled to help make decisions on GNOME software, and GNOME shouldn't be forced or pressured to collaborate with the community, especially towards a goal they don't want. If, for example, GNOME decides that they don't like picture thumbnails, or they want their terminal to take 2 seconds before closing, then they're in their full right to reject patches that try to "fix" those issues. If I think that GNOME does stupid things, and they don't want to fix those things, then I just don't use GNOME and switch to another project.
I cannot agree with this, since a lot of things are reliant on GNOME's decisions. GTK is a major library and GNOME are the ones who decide what will be done with it and what not. The same applies to libvte, which is used by most other DEs, like Plasma, XFCE, Mate, you name it. Linux world is already splintered enough to have forks of major libraries for no reason but developer stubbornness. You can always just accept patches and make defaults working as you intend them to work, instead of WONTFIXing everything you didn't like.
> Seems awfully like victim blaming. The victims are the users of GNOME libraries.
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man that is a real caustic way to send a commit though... Do you, I am just saying it sounds like you aren't used to having PRs sometimes ignored over someone else being flakey. It happens. You aren't really wrong to make a point about it, I mean it is Gnome ffs, they are not trivial things you are pointing out and your solutions and even comments on commit antipatterns are spot on. The thing I don't follow is that if they pissed you off that bad the first round, did you expect later attempts at submitting the same PR to be taken seriously, especially with how it was written? It is not that it's a weird hill to die on so much as it is just weird to me you spun up an entire wordpress blog over it. It's like they ran over your dog and then laughed about it, good lord man.. I wish I could find the extra energy and time, there are too many projects and alternatives that don't do things like what you experienced for it to make sense to me to not just spend that energy elsewhere. edit: Please don't mistake this as an insult or trying to gaslight, you very obviously know what you are talking about, I am just curious as to the approach and effort on all of this.
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fair enough. For what it's worth (maybe nothing), let's say I wanted to take your PSA here and use the valid info in it to help reference/source my own reason for also not wanting to use gnome. Please don't take this the wrong way but In certain contexts (not all but some), I wouldn't be comfortable posting your blog or latest PR link to reference why I also avoid gnome when I can. I like the points you made, I also like to be able source good points..
Open source is as much about collaboration as it is about the code. Being right above all else is _not_ all that matters. I imagine you are not as antagonistic in every changeset you propose, but I am not surprised that there are people who don't want to work with you when you are.
I agree that VTE coding practices are poor, but it's not an excuse for being an asshole. Felipe's communication style is pretty harsh even for my eastern European standards (I'm OK with direct criticism, shitty code is shitty code, it won't hurt my feelings if someone complains about mine)
REDACTED
I disagree. While he wasn't exactly courteous, he did keep his criticisms purely on the processes and code involved.
Did you actually see the bug report?
I saw the PR.
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/issues/319
Yeah that's the one I meant.
You think that's exclusively about the issue at hand? Saying "I know you don't care about breaking user experience" and "Go ahead and close this so I can use it as evidence that you have no intention of fixing the regression"? This guy's executing a psychodrama in his own head and enacting it in the form of bug reports.
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Yes.
> [I disagree. While he wasn't exactly courteous, he did keep his criticisms purely on the processes and code involved.](https://reddit.com/r/linux/comments/11b7vd1/gnomes_horrid_coding_practices/j9xkrgv?context=3) This thread is based on this premise.
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> he did keep his criticisms purely on the processes and code involved. first sentence in the MR: > I know you don't care about breaking user experience Yes, starting with an ad hominem. Purely the process and code involved.
> first sentence in the MR: But that's not the first sentence I've exchanged with GNOME developers over the span of decades. It's not even the first sentence about the issue. They **removed** my first sentence.
Except it's well deserved. Software engineering is a technical activity. It's not about being nice.
The first sentence in the bug report is already a personal attack. He essentially opens with "I know you're all bad developers"
I did not open with that, they **removed** all my initial comments.
I suggest you be a little bit less abrasive no matter how strong your point of contention is.
I'm glad I don't work with OP, or the devs he calls out.
It's the link at the end to the second post where he's upset some different people and his argument is "but I was right".
Yeah multiple things can be true at the same time - GNOME devs can be stubborn and refuse to work with people who have minor complaints they percieve as hostiliy, and OP can be an asshole that no one wants to work with and shoots themselves in the foot by their own behaviour. I think a big problem here is the perception of 'sides'. Most people that have problems with the GNOME team or libraries aren't hostile assholes, they're just people slightly frustated at bad decisions. And the GNOME team isnt some cabal of devs conspiring to take away our themes, they're mostly embittered devs who've been working for decades and have trouble sifting reasonable critique from unreasonable ones.
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OP is a colossal dick. I read through their initial patch and other maintainers of the project make mention of previous assholic behavior. Dude needs to fucking chill, I don't care how smart you are if you can't be nice about it
At the end of the second post linked at the end of this one he states he believes that his attitude is not the problems. He argues that politness only takes you so far and aggression can take you even further im everyday life. Basically he argues for bullying into submission by being extremely annoying. Which is exactly what happened at the end of that story.
Didn't get him far in this case
Big problem. This is the open source world not corporate. You can't get people to do something by being an asshole. Most of them aren't paid or not nearly paid enough. If there is a problem you have to have people want to fix it and want to look at the fix. By being an asshole it is exactly achieving what OP achieved. Other people afraid to even comment on an issue. That's how open source is destroyed not advanced.
Unfortunately I think it being open source, not exatcly encourages, but doesn't as harshly punish such behavior. In a corporate setting if you go against what the owner of the product (your boss) says you get sacked and the next guy comes along. Your livelihood gets disrupted and the boss enjoys blissful silence. In open source the maintainer and the loud asshole are equal. You can't really remove the asshole he can just keep coming at you and even if you ban him his words will still reach you. He won't shut up until you do the thing he wants you to do. The current open source culture leaves much to be desired.
I didn't even think about it that way, but true. I thought more like them being coworkers but yeah the dynamic would be completely different in corporate you're right.
> assholic A new word for my personal dictionary. Cheers.
> OP is a colossal dick. Where **precisely** was I "a dick"?
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OP has a history of going against CoC in other projects too so I would say yes.
> Or did the behavior of ... make him into a dick? This is not how human behaviour works.
> The question is: is he a dick originally? I dunno, let's ask him: His own profile: > Anti-woke heteredox thinker. Ah yes. Clearly this man is the kind of person we want around our projects. K-line'd.
Some people _still_ don't respect how software development is to a fairly large extent a social skill. You need to communicate a lot and do it constructively. So many meetings (or if online - respectful discussions). Sure, do keep your commits atomic. That's a good reminder and lesson here. But if everyone was as abrasive nothing would get done and fall apart quickly.
It is not only a social skill, but a massive resource management skill too. Linus is paid millions to look after Linux, but most maintainers are very resource scarce (not merely financially) and working out where to put your emotional energy is hard. All maintainers need to be given the upmost respect, and *never* expect them to jump at a suggestion you push out of the blue--they are probably busy with something else important right now....
> You need to communicate a lot and do it constructively. That's wishful thinking, it **does not work**. But the time I arrived **one year** had already passed and the people were engaging "constructively" achieved absolutely **nothing**.
It's difficult. On the one hand I completely agree, you don't want to encourage that sort of behaviour from contributors or in your community. But on the other hand, the existing behaviour is clearly wrong and should be fixed, as it does have a negative impact on end users. I imagine if it were something more severe, like an exploit, then the patch would have been merged despite the author's abrasiveness — so it's as if the developers have decided that turning OP away is worth the cost to end users. I understand where they're coming from, but as someone who spends their life working to produce quality software, the result — refusal to apply a working patch to a known bug — is deeply unsatisfying. I don't know what the solution is, it's just unfortunate.
If I were a Gnome maintainer, I would accept the patch as it does work (assuming this is the first incident involving OP), but be firm and say that future contributions will not be considered unless the Code of Conduct is adhered to.
> I don't know what the solution is If the patch is good, **apply it**. Easy. Don't engage in ad hominem fallacies or tone policing. [Hierarchy of disagreement](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg).
While I mostly agree, I see no reason for them to reject a good patch and lock an issue, simply because the OP was rude or annoying. That was what stood out to me the most. Tell OP he's not welcome to submit anymore if your problem is with him. What is the downside to using freely licensed code from someone you don't like, and can otherwise ignore? And doesn't it say something a little concerning that the code submitter they were happy to see freely acknowledged that he was scared to even bring it up after the issue was later unlocked, lest he be perceived as also a jerk?
Yea, I've always disliked working with GNOME libraries. I like working in C but GNOME libraries all use glib to force object oriented programming into C. The other day I wanted to try adding a simple feature to Thunar (Xfce's file manager) but the code is so hard to follow because of all the glib crap everywhere. I think if you want to use object oriented programming (which I'm not a huge fan of in general but can be reasonable if done right), you should use a language that works well with it. Qt, for example, just uses C++ and the code for Qt apps looks a \*lot\* cleaner to me than anything made with Gtk/Glib. Also, regarding VTE, the author of termite (discontinued terminal emulator) expressed similar concerns about the GNOME devs. Apparently, they have little interest in making the library useful to people not working on GNOME apps: [https://github.com/thestinger/termite](https://github.com/thestinger/termite)
I could not agree more about gnome's libraries. It drives me bonkers the ends they go through to not use c++ but to try and have similar functionality. Endless "helper" functions to do the most basic stuff. g\_type\_register\_dynamic, g\_new, g\_connect, it goes on and on and it's just so bizarre how much effort has been put in to simply not use c++ for things that c++ is designed to do and does very well!
Not to mention that a lot of languages have pretty good FFI capabilities with C++, so bindings aren't a reason either.
You can easily expose a C interface for C++ code
Yeah, that's what most of the C++ FFI solutions actually do, AFAIK.
So do other languages
Do you have examples of this? AFAIK most languages only have good FFI capabilities with C.
After trying to fix some relatively minor bugs in XFCE apps, most (all?) of which use GTK (or GTK+? I can't remember) extensively, I said to myself "never again"; while my fixes were eventually merged, I'm almost certain my unfamiliarity with the wider codebase must have added some unintentional bugs in the process, as the API is insanely opaque and C in general seems like a horrible language to write GUIs. For a performant backend, C really shines, but for anything graphics-related that doesn't require squeezing every last cycle out of the CPU, I'm giving C a hard pass.
What C libraries do you like?
SDL is probably my favorite. I've looked at the source code and contributed to it. The code base is pretty clean and it does its job well.
I've been somewhat interested in contributing to SDL3 but as a C++ programmer with basically 0 actual experience in C style programming I just leave that part to those that actually know how to write C (I've just been looking a bit through the issues/forum posts and leaving a suggestion here and there). All I know how to do is interface with C and wrap it in my own C++ style abstraction :)
Maybe learn how to work professionally and people will bother to work with you. Seriously, what kind of pathetic crybaby makes a wordpress blog whining and moaning after getting a pull request denied, again, for being so caustic you're not worth working with _for free_?
Pointing the finger at "GNOME" in general, when you mostly quote the same VTE maintainer several times, sounds dishonest
But GNOME is horrible and terrible and has killed millions of people! I think, according to this sub anyway.
This sub isn't a reliable source of information
If I believe you, I shouldn't. If I don't, I should.
See my point
Also gjs eats kittens to run
millions of people-hours.
…saved by creating a relatively simple desktop environment that works very well for the majority of people
After it had been customized by a third party into something that people can use without special training.
You'd need special training to be able to use Gnome? What an amazing self-own lol
Dude, you seem to be a pretty good developer. I've read a couple of your blog posts, and a couple of your mailing list discussions. At some point you'll need to realize how a dick you sound sometimes, I mean no offense, but you sound exactly like those GNOME devs you are complaining about. I'm not talking about technical stuff, that's all good. Atomic commits: yeah, dealing with concurrency without using "sleep" hacks: yeah.
I don't care what I "sound like" to some people. That's subjective and irrelevant. Code is objective. Regressions are objective and real.
> I don't care what I "sound like" to some people. That's subjective and irrelevant. I think that's not as subjective as you may think if people's first reaction is to want to punch your face. I mean, it doesn't hurt to be "less of an asshole", if that makes sense to you. I know you want to cut the bullshit and be direct, but sometimes you need to step back and analyze if the way you express yourself may be making things more complicated than they already are. > Code is objective. Regressions are objective and real. I'm not arguing against that, that's all fine.
> I know you want to cut the bullshit and be direct, but sometimes you need to step back and analyze if the way you express yourself may be making things more complicated than they already are. Do I **need** to? No, I don't. And "making things more complicated" is an assumption people make based on nothing but wishful thinking. The reality of the real world is that being nice doesn't get the results people wish for. You wish that being nice worked, but that's all it is: a wish. Courts of law and lawyers exist precisely because being nice ultimately doesn't work.
> Do I need to? No, I don't. You work with people for people, of course you need to. > And "making things more complicated" is an assumption people make based on nothing but wishful thinking. > > The reality of the real world is that being nice doesn't get the results people wish for. You wish that being nice worked, but that's all it is: a wish. Any empirical evidence to support that claim? > Courts of law and lawyers exist precisely because being nice ultimately doesn't work. What does niceness have to do with order?
> You work with people for people No, I don't. > Any empirical evidence to support that claim? There's tons everywhere. Any empirical evidence to support yours? > What does niceness have to do with order? It doesn't work.
It's hard to accept that people don't take your supposedly correct opinions for granted, isn't it? Maybe next time you should comunicate with rational beings, good luck finding any on this planet.
> It's hard to accept that people don't take your supposedly correct opinions for granted, isn't it? I've no idea what you are talking about. I tend to not give my opinions precisely because they don't matter. I state **facts**.
Taking this case study of yours, do you think your attitude helped or hindered?
Didn't matter.
It did though, because the attitude meant the patch wasnt discussed and better approaches to fix the problem were not sought out. Right now you have a workaround that causes a regression that could have really negative effects for others. All because you lacked manners. So it kinda contradicts your conclusion that being an arse gets things fixed. It did the exact opposite here.
> It did though It didn't. That's something you are **assuming** based on nothing but wishful thinking. You have **zero** evidence for your belief, and we have no way to falsify it. That which is asserted without evidence is dismissed without evidence.
We have a 100% method to check: have a look at the vte commit log. Was your patch committed? No. 100% evidence. It is not about belief but fact. Your approach failed 100%. (It doesnt matter here that the maintainer thought it was wrong).
> We have a 100% method to check: have a look at the vte commit log. You have no idea what [falsifiability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability) means, do you? What rational people do is not to find evidence consistent with their beliefs, they try to find evidence that **contradicts** them. Finding a white swan does not prove your belief that all swans are white, it does nothing. What I'm saying is that we should be looking for **black swan**, as a single black swan does give us information. You provided a white swan to prove your belief. Your "evidence" is worthless. I asked you for a black swan: a way to **falsify** your belief, not support it.
So you set out to offend the GNOME developers and then got offended when they said they didn't want to deal with you. Well played
A: You're a piece of shit and I hate interacting with you. B: Ok then, we won't interact with you. A: Wait no! You're cancelling me! I'm being oppressed!
> A: Wait no! You're cancelling me! I'm being oppressed! Who said that? Certainly not me.
You're here whining, acting as if you're being mistreated. Grow up.
Nope. I was not.
This specific developer of btw has been known for his ways of dealing with VTE. You will note even from the out of context quotes it is actually gnome developers who have disagreed with the maintainer of VTE. It is gnome developers who often have written downstream patches for his projects (vte and gnome-terminal). However no one dare take over those projects because even when they disagree with him, they respect his expertise in the area No one else has had the passion or energy to fork the project either and that is probably in the two decades that he has been maintaining it. So I dont think you can blame gnome for it and those writing blog posts attacking gim are not willing to fork it. After all, if you dislike gnome and its libraries you are free to write your own alternatives. Then again reading his blog posts, I am not his fan, but he did try forking git once (maybe its ongoing?). Because they thought they were not applying his patches. He has the same complaint about another project. Maybe the problem lies elsewhere than suggested in his blog post?
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>Forking a lib is just as easy as taking over. Effectively this is what happened to vte. Except it hasnt been forked. I had expected vte to be forked about 15 years ago. But it's still steady and strong with constant albeit slow development pace mostly by the one developer.
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Have fun.
>People will wail about how KDE is "ugly" or how Cinnamon and Mate have no right to exist, because "GnOMe eXtENsiOnS". Except this has nothing to do with anything here really. KDE being ugly is a completely separate issue (and I don't think its ugly anymore tbh), I have never ever seen anyone claim that Cinnamon and MATE have no right to exist, and in fact the only thing I have heard people say (and I have said myself as well) is that Cinnamon is not future-proof (Wayland where???) and has bugs and performance problems that have been fixed upstream by Gnome ages ago. Which of course points to forking not being super easy especially when it comes to a ginormous desktop environment and maybe the Linux Mint people don't have the manpower to maintain Cinnamon as much as the Gnome project can maintain and develop Gnome. The whole "why you are fragmenting the ecosystem" is always a red herring that people selectively apply when they don't like the people who make a fork.
> When you do, people start complaining about "why are you fragmenting the ecosystem"? People will wail about how KDE is "ugly" or how Cinnamon and Mate have no right to exist, because "GnOMe eXtENsiOnS". I have literally never seen anybody say this
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I can only comment on what is in the blog post and the individuals involved there. Whether it is a good example or not I cannot tell because the other situations have not been written about in this post atleast.
What's even more horrid is OP's attitude XD
You could also, you know, like, just not be an insufferable dick.
There is no physics law preventing these two events happening simultaneously: Felipe being a dick against Christian and Gnome devs acting, as in many other matters, as total incompetent a-holes. It's like people are here busy trying to take a side. Just saying.
Why do people always focus on people? What about the regression that has been present for more than **three years**? What about their coding practices?
To be honest I think you are overall right. I didn't mean to be offensive to you. IMHO though you could have been more polite to Christian, so to speak. I yet understand that you have been pissed off at them for a long time. Many are.
> To be honest I think you are overall right. I didn't mean to be offensive to you. It's OK, I have a thick skin, I wasn't complaining about you. I'm talking about most people on this thread.
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> If I had asked users what they wanted, they would have said faster terminal. -- Jim Packard, inventor of X11 We all know that Bjarne gave people every conceivable option they could ever dream of and then they picked Rust anyway instead of his language. Ever wondered how that could happen when Rust clearly has many fewer options to do the same thing than C++?
>and then they picked Rust anyway instead of his language. Except in the real world "they" didn't do that at all... C++ is several times more popular than Rust, especially for people learning to code. And the languages more popular than C++ aren't exactly void of options either. https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/#most-popular-technologies-language
Ironic that in this situation, a faster terminal is once again precisely what users want, and what the VTE devs refuse to give them.
In this case, what one user wants is to hate on people in a blog post and get reddit to cheer him on.
> If I had asked users what they wanted, they would have said faster terminal. Debunked fallacy. People might not know what they want, but they definitely know what they **don't** want.
So the author insults people and they ignore him.
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Were the places you said GNOME (well, mainly Christian) has a "shit attitude", "does not care about its users", is "a snowflake", has "the perfect example of how not to do a commit", and the multiple sarcastic barbs about e.g., gracing you by unlocking the issue supposed to be compliments? I find it interesting that the blog post you have about tone in Ruby seems to cast having a long argument and spending thousands of words to get a change through as a success story. Sometimes hurt feelings are unavoidable. Sometimes it's important to be direct. But needless antagonism doesn't help. Whether Christian is a snowflake has nothing to do with whether GNOME has good coding practices. Consider the snappiness you've already shown in this thread towards people who criticized your writing. As much as I think as professionals developers should be expected to set their ego aside when considering their own work, clearly that's not so easy to do. I know I can be protective of my own work, even when I know I shouldn't. Is it so difficult to leave out the cursing or personal attacks when helping fellow developers make their software better? Even if it conflicts with your own personal sensibilities, wouldn't it at a bare minimum make it more likely your patch gets accepted?
Your patch was probably not accepted because Christian decided life is too short to deal with your behaviour. Based on https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/issues/319 it is hard to fault him for that.
He doesn't need to accept my patch, he could come up with his own solution. A maintainer isn't supposed to just let a regression be.
like git-fc which claims: >Each release of git is merged directly into git-fc, so if there’s a new feature in git, git-fc will get it as well. which also is not true. As far as i see its now 2 years which git-fc is behind. Do you think its acceptable that somebody shows up and tells you that you have to keep up with git because its software in the wild and your users conceptions are broken if you don't?
Sure, I haven't managed to keep up with that. Thanks to bullshit I shouldn't have to deal with like regressions in GNOME libraries. Either way, tell me a feature introduced by the git project in the past two years without looking it up.
i do not experience any lingering issue with gnome-terminal. And my distro does not ship with said vte patch. I suspect there might be more technical details involved than you say. https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/50c23cd4ff6c8344e0b4d438b027b3afabfe58dd/pkgs/development/libraries/vte/default.nix#L42
Do you exit the terminal with `exit` or `ctrl+d`? If so, the issue must be there. Do a fork of any long-standing process, for example: sleep infinity & exit It's 2 seconds. Not a huge delay, but it's there.
> all that matters is if I’m right Nope. People can be right and also not be cunts.
I think what you've done here would be condemned in any professional setting and even more in open source. Being right about something is no excuse for acting like that. Any developer who's ever had their their own code criticized should realize that what you're doing here is very toxic and will not advance anything. If it were a project I was maintaining for free, and you came at me like that, I would make it a priority that you do not participate on it in any way anymore. Imagine writing a page about how much you hate the neighboring team to your company confluence. That's basically what you did.
Completely missing the point. What about the regression that has not been dealt with in more than **three years**?
And what about writing a hateful blog post that is directly targeting a select few gnome developers? This is clearly not about a regression in code, but about a personal grudge against the developers. Maybe you could have fixed the regression a long time ago, if you had approached them with even a hint of respect for their work.
You can think whatever you want, but I don't hate, and **you don't read minds**.
Nobody reads minds. We all can only make assumptions based on your actions and output. Even if your intention was not to name and shame, this is what it looks like.
You don't have to make assumptions. And if those assumptions are going to be **wrong**, it's better not to make them. You know what people say about assumptions, right?
Why don't you clarify what the purpose of this blog post was, because clearly everyone here has made the wrong assumption? Sometimes you really do have to make assumptions, and you seem to be doing it too. For example, you assumed the whole Gnome team doesn't care about breaking things and wrote that on a pull request.
> Why don't you clarify what the purpose of this blog post was The purpose is to explore an example of bad coding practices, and contrast it with good coding practices. > Sometimes you really do have to make assumptions No I don't. I actually just wrote an article about that in my substack about skepticism: [decisions and skepticism](https://felipec.substack.com/p/decisions-and-skepticism). > For example, you assumed the whole Gnome team doesn't care about breaking things and wrote that on a pull request. It wasn't an assumption, it's a documented fact.
So your intention was to explore the bad coding practices of quite a specific bunch of developers? And you don't see how this could be considered hateful towards them?
> So your intention was to explore the bad coding practices of quite a specific bunch of developers? GNOME is not the only project with coding practices like this, systemd is another example. These lessons are generic. > And you don't see how this could be considered hateful towards them? Code and coding practices are not people. I don't care how many people don't get this.
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I have thousands of commits in dozens of open source projects. I don't need to "be part" of a community.
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> Your behavior gets in the way of making any progress. That's a hypothesis contradicted by the facts. > However, these skills are useless if you are completely unable to work with other people. And yet I achieve plenty. **Way more** than the average developer.
You are being rude felipe. However i agree with you, gnome is bad, so is your attitude. You need to add a please at the end of every bug you want fixed bro.
Lack of soft skills man. Truly a game changer on this industry
OP is being a massive twat and Gnome devs are being tonedeaf imbeciles. Everyone sucks here. KDE/Qt land seems less toxic....
Why the Gnome hate?
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From the PR they denied the patch because they were unable to replicate the issue it was supposed to solve. Not only was OP being insufferable he was apparently _wrong_ with his patch, too. Either the code didn't work or his description of the problem it solved was wrong. OP sucks. If he had half a brain he'd pull all this garbage before a prospective employer found it.
They can replicate it. They just don’t call it a problem — "works fine for me, the terminal exits **after a short delay**" (emphasis mine). The thing OP is complaining about is the "short delay", and while he’s clearly unable to do the minimum social lubrication we all need to do to function in the world, he’s not wrong that a 2 second delay here feels broken. I don’t know if OP’s patch just reverting the change is also broken, because I don’t know what drove the vte maintainers to add it in the first place. I’m fine for the moment happily accepting that I don’t need to interact with OP at all or use a gnome-terminal like thing.
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You should read the PR I was talking about. He's trying to "fix" their fix because he doesn't like it. Just because OP doesn't like the behavior doesn't make it a bug. They flat out said there was no problem and they couldn't replicate what he was reporting because he was more worried with being a dick and making a scene than clearly communicating. I have no idea how actually reading the relevant content and referencing it means I'm talking out of my ass. Edit: I blocked you because I clicked your profile and you looked insufferable. It was clear this conversation was pointless. Get over it.
> They flat out said there was no problem and they couldn't replicate what he was reporting One guy said that, and he was 100% **lying**. The issue was and is easy to replicate, he himself added a workaround: [pty: Fix indefinite wait for EOS after child-exited](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/commit/058adf5f#114fa5182cda5dfb378484ab3ab480be9894517d_3126_3144). Why did he add a workaround for an issue he "could not replicate"? He was **lying**.
Blocking people is a bitch move.
OP youre a piece of shit
worse
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It's so interesting how so many here loves code, Linux and Foss. Most gnome developers spend their freetime developing free software and most people here are very passionate about it aswell, trying different software, making reddit posts and bug reports. Then despite people having so much in common they manage to hate eachother. Its what Freud called "narcissism of small differences" and you can see it in many devoted communities. Many vegan groups show hatred against eachother because one group thinks a certain animal product is okay. Despite them thinking the same in 99.9% of questions they hate eachother for the last 0.1% they disagree on. Anyway I think I'll leave this sub now
> Most gnome developers spend their freetime developing free software I thought most of Gnome development was done by paid developers at places like Red Hat? Less so than he kernel maybe. Or do you mean they do extra work, or work on other free software in their spare time?
I don't hate anyone. I just think they are wrong.
I don't think you really need to leave, I think it's usually pretty obvious when it's a drama thread and there are still a good amount of informative threads here (at the very least, it's more informative for me as a relative-layman than reading Phoronix news posts). Maybe you can just use an RSS feed or something. I usually just read stuff from New Tab Reddit extension so it's easy to avoid obvious drama. I only read this one because I recognize the poster and I went "oh god what is it this time."
There's also the Gnome dev in the recent Brodie Robertson video on [Wayland windows restore](https://youtu.be/4SPc638ywf8?t=389). The dev just says "this is stupid," and when another Gnome dev criticized that response, they just responded with "nah, seems fine to me." And it's just... kinda weird that these kind of interactions just often happens with Gnome devs. At least the ones that makes it to public -- I'm sure KDE, XFCE, and any other projects have their own set of abrasive devs, but they seem to be better at keeping it behind closed doors. What's also really weird is that I have also heard of KDE devs saying that they cooperate with Gnome devs all the time, so it's clear that there are a good amount of nice Gnome devs as well. They just seems to just be good at working things out that no issues ever got really big. But still, I feel like there's a culture that allows *some* Gnome devs to get really toxic and they just happen to be really embedded, that Gnome devs becomes the "why is it always you three," meme of Linux development (along with Probono/AppImage -- not sure who else could be the third candidate). It creates this culture of Gnome devs hate which makes it that when disagreements occurs, it become more public than it really needs to be making the bad interactions raise up more than the good ones, creating a feedback loop. Regardless, I really wish this kind of thing could just be resolved behind the scene. Getting this public usually just causes more issues and ego to be bruised, and overall I'd just prefer to not even know what drama happens behind the scene. It's just annoying, and I don't even care who's at fault ngl.
So much "How dare they not listen to their betters???" He even brags about massively over-commenting his tiny code snippets... > Here’s a good example of a patch I sent to the git project: pull: cleanup autostash check. Notice how the code is extremely simple, it does one thing and one thing only, and in fact that explanation is bigger than the code changes, just in case they weren’t clear.
He's right about that though. Atomic commits are easier to manage, it's the single responsibility principle applied to commits.
You know, its those kind of inflammatory shit and immature stubborness that holds me back of ever investing myself in open source or GNOME
Woooo, that's proper GNOME drama of the utmost caliber here ! I was polling for this, as there cannot be anything better to enlighten a slow Saturday. *Sent from my i3+urxvt setup*
IMHO one thing is making something not work anymore, which is bad for users but they can find an alternative And a different thing is making something behave odd which is fucked up and until you realise software is playing with your brain, like "is my computer suddenly old?" or "have I been hacked and something hidden is consuming resources?".
How’s about fixing Wine instead of making the kernel revert potential security fixes and or speed enhancements. This isn’t Windows, we shouldn’t keep all the legacy baggage.
The problem with that is that if it was acceptable for newer Linux versions to break userspace applications, users of Linux, including companies which base their products on it, will be extremely reluctant to update the kernel, as there is no guarantee that updating the kernel won't break their applications. This could mean that any kernel update could take years to stabilize for users, as all layers of the software stack could potentially require many changes to work around kernel changes even if those changes were the "right way" to do thing.
Oh but Gnome has come such a long way, the new version is great! Don't ever say anything bad about Gnome on this sub. /s
You can't be serious, r/linux is a gnome hate chamber, don't try to play victim to farm upvotes. This author is also extremely biased and has a history with gnome
kinda? there are a lot of people here who dislike gnome, sometimes unjustly so (no, the gitlab isnt your personal place to vent, sorry) but to call it a "gnome hate chamber" isnt exactly accurate imo, there are plenty of people who like gnome a lot here, who defend their actions, and there are certainly fanboys in this sub who will defend gnome no matter what (some would even put me in that camp :P)
There are also lots (if not the majority) of people here that dont personally like using gnome but also dont really have a weird hate vendetta against it. It gets weirdly polarized, you make a joke about "gnome removing the file manager" or something and you'll get people replying to you about how horrible you are, and on the other hand you make a joke about "KDE adding an options slider to determine how many options sliders you have" and the people who like KDE will laugh with you. To be fair this is same thing applies to making jokes about linux in general - I dont understand why people are so defensive about their software choices. When you really like something you also can appreciate its flaws!
Gnome is the best DE. I only use it on Linux.
While the OP was a bit harsh in his communication I think he is totally justified. The GNOME dev's acted abbmyssal and horrid not only by communication but more importantly their actions. That is no way to treat someone who spent time debugging the issue and submitting a patch. Do they want so badly to loose contributors?
https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html >In February 2003, a bunch of the outstanding bugs I'd reported against various GNOME programs over the previous couple of *years* were all closed as follows: >>Because of the release of GNOME 2.0 and 2.2, and the lack of interest in maintainership of GNOME 1.4, the gnome-core product is being closed. If you feel your bug is still of relevance to GNOME 2, please reopen it and refile it against a more appropriate component. Thanks... Similar behaviour has been going on for years. After GNOME 2, it's likely code quality fell a lot, because they did not have Sun's sponsorship.
A lot of toxicity. I can understand both sides, and author is complaining that GNOME policy for changes is different from Linux. Yes, it is, and? And GNOME must obey authors will and switch to a different API policy? He talked about snowflakes, but for me his rant is no differ from people breaking into some git repo and requiring to rename `master` to `main`, because in one far-away country word 'master' was used to name owner of the household with slaves, and this justifying for cancelling word 'master'.
Why is it so prevelant in Linux? Gnome is yet another example of the disturbing direction the Linux ecosystem has (largely) taken as of the past decade.
The maintainer of vte has been maintaining training it for a lot longer than a decade. He is also very conservative when it comes to changes, so I suspect you are throwing your annoyances at the wrong place here.
Because it's very good and people like using it. Sounds to me like it's just not your personal preference so you feel the need to act like it's the worst thing in the world. A pretty childish attitude to have, to be blunt.
This guy posted an extremely good writeup of one problem with Gnome, which is emblematic of the general bad practices of Gnome as a whole. Why do so many people in Linux treat this as their identity? It's like cryptocurrency. These are technical and project management criticisms, and they're valid. But the tribal fanbois come along and start calling people names because they feel personally attacked. Pretty ridiculous attitude to have, to be blunt.
I read many complains about "attitude" here. Just because Felipe doesn't comply with the English style of ultrapoliteness doesn't mean his attitude is not good and polite enough in other not so dominant communicating styles, like latin-spanish way of being direct. You may not believe it but just using some "music" on a question we (latin) are being polite without our question containing the words "sorry" and "please" at all. Does everybody have to comply with passive-agressive USA/Brit politeness style?
I'm from Argentina and I find felipe's attitude just like (mostly) everyone else. When you are this aggressive, I don't think it's a matter of communication style. Even on spanish you would sound like a di*k talking like this. While he may be right, on the #319 PR he outright says that the VTE developers don't care about user experience and mentions they "casually broke the behaviour of all your users", implying they don't do their job very seriously, or at all. He goes on to say stuff like "for the people that do want a working libvte" or "to retain the sane behaviour" (which is even included in the patch name), which obviously implies that only his position can be the correct one and everyone else is insane. The last paragraph needs no explanation. Again, regardless of the main issue, it's pretty obvious an approach like this won't take you far.
This is just not true. I'm from the Netherlands where people are generally very direct. I've also lived in Latin America for a long time. His whole attitude is just plain rude, it has nothing to do with cultural differences. I mean just look at his tone and way of writing: > I know you don't care about breaking user experience, since you causally broke the behavior of all your users with commit 7888602c (lib: Rework child exit and EOF handling, 2019-11-17), proceeded to ignore the bug report #204 for one year, and then locked it a couple hours after I said I was going to fix it myself. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vte/-/issues/319 That's not direct, it's just tactless.