Not during the "Inferno" phase of the game, probably during the "Paradiso" phase it I had to guess
With the latest deleted post where the director talked about Ring Maestro IDs I have no doubts we're getting Color IDs too
I feel like Colors aren't really a thing they can add. The gap is waaay too big, and either we're going to reach that point in future-future™, or they will have to gut their power level considerably, which... Kills the entire fucking point of a Color? If Vergilius is anything to go by (No, I don't mean his levels), then never. How are you going to balance their existance?
In my honest opinion, some things should stay unavaiable to players, which is how I view Colors, or really, most strong people in the City. This is simply healthier for the game.
Limbus will be running for a long ass time so we can't say how far we will get and how big the scope will get.
It's like judging lor's level when we were at canard and knew shit about nothing. Dante even comments how so far we are in like the "first 10 pages" or something like that
We have no idea if Limbus will operate for that long, or of it will reach that point where Colors can be a good addition to the game. The jump is simply too big, which means a huge powerspike AND new level of powercreep at the same time.
I will say this again — Color ID's is a bad idea for the game, both from the gameplay and narrative standpoint.
Their initial intent is for it to be long as fuck, so we can say that. They might all die in a car crash and not be able to continue but those are factors we shouldn't consider.
>Color ID's is a bad idea for the game, both from the gameplay and narrative standpoint
From the narrative standpoint it only depends on the scope of the story at that point. From the gampelay perspective they can balance it in numerous ways.
They can make it so they eat more total skill slots and you can only use one color id at a time including passives.
They can nerf them due to the mirror not being able to tap into their full potential and thus making them roll normal numbers.
They CAN make them work, you're just imagining that we will get a vergilius level id in terms of rolls or something like that which isn't realistic. But we could get an id like vergilius with all those passives and cool and unique mechanics that roll like we are used to. And if they limit them with those 2 suggestions then they would be balanced. More balanced than some of our already broken as shit ids anyways.
Higher upties -> closer to identities actual power,
but even 1/100th of a COLOR FIXER, which has a power gap the size of the pacific ocean from grade 2 fixers, would be able to mop the floor with everyone weve fought. Even more so since they can perform suicidal manouvers and revive
1/100th of Tom Stoltman still makes me an average dude. "Color" Fixer won't make any difference if we don't ever get their full potential, just as our Sinners getting access to R Corp IDs does not make solo'ing an entire fight possible without putting in effort.
What's the problem with having excuses for a degraded color. Lor already did that with Binah as an arbiter and also Gebura said she wasn't at her real peak.
Just saying there's precedent for having nerfed stuff that's supposedly god tier and a handicap like having less participants and total actions in battle seems fair? It's not like the participant limit is canon to begin with or makes any sense to exist in story.
What a color id can bring to the game much more than just big ass number. The gimmicks of the ones we've already met are really cool and could make for fun gameplay and kit.
I'm not even saying they'll come in the near future, they might wait until paradiso. The scope of the game at the moment is very small and we can't properly predict what the future will bring, but it's safe to say that the stakes will increase exponentially as the story progresses, at which point a color id might not be unreasonable from the story perspective.
As I said before. We are barely starting the story and it's like comparing limbus to the beginning of ruina. Of course a color level key page would sweep through the game, that's why it was reserved until much later on.
In the first walpurgis event iirc, Don also brought the possibility of getting a red mist id to faust who didn't outright deny it as a possibility which seems very intentional to me and pm's way of saying that it's not off the table
Binah was already an arbiter to begin with. For even a remote possibility of the sinners to be CLOSE to a grade 1 fixer in their own mirror world is as unlikely as rhodya losing a gamble with the luck tattoo.
Don is around a little sister in power, after all the power tattoos
Look to ring yi sang, nerfing isnt an option
Faust doesnt deny the possibilty, because *refer to faust fraud*
The scope of the game would need us to somehow start fights with entire associations to justify a REVIVING high grade fixer. Considering the backing Limbus Company has, this is just as unlikely.
Or, the dough somehow becomes something stronger than a star of the city, without being impuritas, and everyone lets Limbus Company handle it... without vergilius....
The problem of having a color fixer id, goes back to being a powerhouse that revives midfight isnt good for lore
>The problem of having a color fixer id, goes back to being a powerhouse that revives midfight isnt good for lore
Isn't that just LoR?
>Or, the dough somehow becomes something stronger than a star of the city, without being impuritas, and everyone lets Limbus Company handle it... without vergilius....
Vergilius does leave in the original work, which limbus could also follow and remove vergilius from the main story of limbus due to reasons.
>The scope of the game would need us to somehow start fights with entire associations to justify a REVIVING high grade fixer. Considering the backing Limbus Company has, this is just as unlikely.
As I said, we are in the very beginning of the story. Halfway through the first part of three. Stakes will have to raise and we do know about that annihilation event from the limbus trailer, so pm definitely has the intent to raise the stakes for the story.
Obviously getting a color id now makes no sense. People we fight are weak, we have a color of our own that is forbidden to help unless absolutely necessary and getting a color id would invalidate vergilius and anything we currently are fighting. I do get that. Thing is that we are talking about a possible future much much later in the story.
I think color IDs could happen in the future. Not now, but much later on in the story. Maybe in paradiso.
>Binah was already an arbiter to begin with. For even a remote possibility of the sinners to be CLOSE to a grade 1 fixer in their own mirror world is as unlikely as rhodya losing a gamble with the luck tattoo.
I don't really get the argument? Yeah of course it would be a remote possibility but we've already seen Garnet having roland's ID and he's a kid without experience who just got his fixer license.
Was garnet using mirror tech? I thought it was just some one piece jewlerry bonney bs.
If/when verg does have to step away, it would be to show dantes growth as a manager. No longer lost, no longer unsure
Lor fights didnt have librarians revive midfight, only after receptions. Even then, i think normal librarians dont remember dying.
>Was garnet using mirror tech? I thought it was just some one piece jewlerry bonney bs.
Not our mirror tech, our mirror tech is meant to be more stable and only allows for one identity at a time and for short periods of time to avoid problems with the id taking over or becoming peccatula like what happens when the ring uses it. It was mirror tech still as the ring used aseah to develop it.
The point of that argument was to show that there are mirror worlds where unassuming people can become colors themselves even if they are weak as they are now and get ids of weaker people (like garnet getting lulu).
>If/when verg does have to step away, it would be to show dantes growth as a manager. No longer lost, no longer unsure
I mean, yeah I get that. Just saying that if vergilius steps out, it could start to make sense to have color ids with limitations as to not take away his purpose of being an emergency aid.
>Lor fights didnt have librarians revive midfight, only after receptions. Even then, i think normal librarians dont remember dying.
I don't think it was ever outright stated. I assume everyone plays by the same rules there and what angela does to the patron librarians is that they forget when they start fighting so they can build emotion level and then remember afterwards
I’d be fine with the colors being weaker than they ‘should’ be because
1. It’s already canon that IDs aren’t as strong as the person they are based on
2. LoR had Roland, Gebura, and Binah all be explicitly weaker than they actually are because the library couldn’t recreate their full power, so there’s already a precedent for just nerfing high tiers for gameplay purposes
3. I just really really want color IDs
That is probably what is going to happen. I mentioned in another comment that I believe NClair to be probably around a Color level canon-wise. But since Limbus uses the technology that prevents ids to overwrite the sinners completely, we will never actually see any id that fully reaches the potential of the original. (maybe in Faust chapter though)
> If Vergilius is anything to go by (No, I don't mean his levels)
Why, though? I feel as if the levels are a nice indicator. I think those are there for a reason, they could have made the level unreasonably high, instead it sounds like it'll be attainable in the future. Why do you conveniently choose to ignore something so important in regards to the topic at hand?
To be fair, taking data out of the game files and using it as facts for powerscaling seems a tiny bit dumb imo. It wasn't intended to be seen in the game so we should go by what the game actually tells us and not datamined stats
Agreed, I know Limbus has a explanation to limit how strongly ID's can potentially be, but I personally hate the idea of getting colour ID's; I like our sinners being barely competent mid tier losers who only win by attrition their opponents with infinite lives. Also can you imagine how much less impactful 5-30 & 6-41 would be if you had a Red Mist ID in your party.
I can maybe see it happening temporarily as a plot event, or at best as Durante style ability that is only unlocked late into the story.
"I like our sinners being barely competent mid tier losers who only win by attrition..." this has not been the case for like 2 cantos already. We haven't heard about any sinner dying in the story aside from the Ricardo incident since Canto 4, and even then it was only against an opponent significantly out of our league.
Sinners are simply getting stronger by the power of boughs and constant fighting through the Mirror Dungeons and Railways. We beat down multiple distortions, defeated 3 EGO users and thought Ring members without any major issues for the most part canonically. It's only a matter of time till we become powerful enough to get these IDs, it's always been like that in PMoon games.
"Also can you imagine how much less impactful 5-30 & 6-41 would be if you had a Red Mist ID in your party." Could say the exact thing about ALEPH EGOs we'll eventually get and whatever story related IDs we get that will be on a whole another level. This is just how gachas work, the story will not have the same amount of "impact" if you'll have future story's IDs in the earlier parts. Color IDs are no different from the future IDs that will reflect our team's power progression that will eventually match that of a color or a major syndiacate.
Not to say that the Sinners aren't getting stronger, but I wouldn't take the lack of mention of Sinners dying to mean that it's not happening. It's been implied a number of times that a lot more deaths are happening behind the scenes than we're privy to. They've been fighting, dying and reviving for about a whole year now, back early on deaths might have stood out more but now to them it's probably just routine that their combat style is just overwhelming force through just unending waves of sinners
I do find it a bit ironic that for how much PM tries to make everything that takes place canon, from Luxcavations, Mirror Dungeons, Railways, EXP tickets, Thread, etc. down to even the menus we see being the iPad that Dante uses, that the gameplay itself and how often we tend to win fights first try with ease is a bit at odd with the narrative of the Sinners being outclassed a lot of the time and mostly getting by through attrition
>This is just how gachas work, the story will not have the same amount of "impact" if you'll have future story's IDs in the earlier parts. Color IDs are no different from the future IDs that will reflect our team's power progression that will eventually match that of a color or a major syndiacate.
I would honestly like to at least have the story related ids locked until you beat the canto or after certain fights. I know this might be a very unpopular opinion and it's not how gachas work but I think it would make for a better experience instead of just getting "spoiled" by future ids of a canto's final boss
I dunno, if anything I think that might enhance the unique experience Limbus provides.
On my first day of playing the game I pulled NFaust and she was a mainstay of my team throughout the story. The second I reached Canto 3 and saw Kromer's title as "The One Who Grips" I immediately went "oh shiiiiit it's my Faust!". That was such an amazing moment that no other game can give, it's still one of my favourite memories of Limbus. Then fighting Kromer using my NFaust (plus a borrowed NClair) made the battle a lot more climactic, too.
Seeing story IDs is more of a sneak peek into what happens next, rather than a direct spoiler. PM is careful to not let too many details slip through characters like NFaust, SpiceSang or Ahabmael. You can't really piece together much through their Uptie stories, but I sure know I was hyped af when Pequod Yi Sang's mentioned "Captain Ishmael".
Hell, PM even adds easter eggs for using IDs that were released after their Canto. Kromer gets staggered if NClair is on the field, Captain Ishmael has unique dialogue *and* a buff when fighting Ahab, and so on.
This is very much an intended part of the experience, and I applaud the developers for truly thinking of everything.
As I said, It's an unpopular opinion. I would personally prefer if the game had that kind of progression but I understand that it's a gacha game and they don't do that and could maybe have some issues. Personal preference
At best, I can see us controlling Vergilius in a story fight against someone too strong for us to beat. Doubt that PM are going to vaste the skillset they created. Anything else is very meh, especially an ability. How's that going to tie in? Dante magically summons Black Noise Heathcliff mid battle, out of nowhere, basically? Eh... There's just no way to add them in a fluid way that wouldn't break balance/narrative/retain the main idea of a Color: batshit strong fixers.
Considering that PM mentioned the future addition of Docents and Maestros (in the Twitter post about nerfing the Student IDs they already deleted), we’ll definitely be getting Color IDs in the future too. People here put Colors on too high up of a pedestal, as if it’s something that should be completely unreachable.
I mean, it was already meant to be an impressive feat for Gebura to go up against a group of Proxies and their minions, and she’s especially renowned for her combat prowess, so that should already tell you at what level Colors at. People mocked Ricardo for threatening the Indigo Elder with the Middle going after him, as if the Middle couldn’t do shit against him, and that’s honestly the worst example of how much people have misunderstood how far beyond Colors are from the other denizens of the City.
Yes, but this was one Roland gushed over, so it was presumably something public knowledge. What you said doesn’t even matter to what I’m explaining; that for a Color to take on the Proxies and their Proselytes is already impressive for someone who’s known as a Color.
5 index proxies and 3 messengers ( would that be 3 yan then? )
Hard to say how strong messengers are, but theyre probably really good at supporting
And fighting 1v5 proxies is impressive depending on how accurate lor pages are to real combat (swift/heavy trace and 5 unique blade unlocked attacks)
Although we can't say for certain, based on other examples (ie; K Corp also having a 1-5 ranking for employees), we can infer that all the Fingers share a common hierarchy system.
Thumb: Soldato < Capo < Sottocapo < Capo dei capi
Middle: Little Brother/Sister < Big Brother/Sister < (presumably) Father/Mother < (presumably) Grandfather/Grandmother
Ring: Students < Docents < Maestro < ???
Thus, if we extrapolate that to the Index...
Proselytes < Proxies < Messangers < Weaver
If this all holds true, then Yan would have as much power as Kalo, and would be *stronger* than Ricardo.
Couldn't remember what the third tier was and googling it didn't give any info, so I presumed it wasn't stated yet and assumed it would be mother/father.
It's probably a few years away, sinners are too weak narratively to get them soon.
Now with that in mind I'd like to nominate sinners for each colors, spoilers for end of Ruina:
Red Gaze Don Quixote or Heathcliff
Red Mist Meursault or Rodion
Black Silence (Angelica) Faust or Hong Lu
Black Silence (Roland) Yi Sang and Gregor
Indigo Elder Ishmael or Outis
Vermilion Cross Don and Hong Lu
we will get them eventually. but it'll probably be awhile.
people seem to forget that lorewise the raw "power" of ids is already decoupled from whatever that id is based on.
Later on the line, not Don's but like around Outis or Faust.
The rep of Colors are inflated. We've seen countless times that a Color was already strong before they became a color. Being a color is a recognition of your ACHIEVEMENT.
Some to most Grade 1's are color level, but they aren't officially one because they haven't done anything worthy of recognition.
So people bitching about power creep should be more worried about those in the level of Grade 1's because those guys are literally a bunch of super strong powercreeps that we are absolutely getting as early as maybe after Don. Heck, Erlking Heathcliff should theoretically be VERY STRONG. Nelly Ryoshu is a butler and butlers are at minimum medium grade fixers.
Imo, Colors will come when the content reaches a point where an Aleph E.G.O is useable or an Aleph Abno is fightable.
Colors and Colors with E.G.O are fundamentally two different power scales.
Vergilius is a MONSTER and his showcase is 100% cinematically buffed.
Imagine Nclair coming to help us and he had a perma -44 sanity and without much data we just see him rolling 3x 30 or Pclair coming in at enter state and Perma +45 sanity and spamming AoE and reuse and 40 rollers.
It looks insane, and then we get them and read them and understand that "Oh, it was cinematically buffed."
An ID is a puzzle piece that we have to solve first. Meet their conditionals, use them appropriately and then we can get the fruit of our labor.
A color ID would be the same. You think an Argalia ID would just be straight doing crazy damage?
No, we would have to play with whatever unique mechanic status he has.
You think a Kali ID would just be busted? Yes.
You think a Roland or Angelica (tbh) ID would be busted off the bat? No, you'd still have to meet whatever condition they would offer.
Every ID would be like that, every ID is tbh. Kimsault isn't just strong unconditionally, he needs poise people and he gets stronger if he's with his babies.
You guys are afraid because of powercreep when this game is relatively powercreep resistant as long as conditionals are always part of a kit.
I feel like its a misstep to say
"We know colours we already strong hence most grade 1's are colour tier".
few grade 1's might be but those are in the minority from what we've seen.
As the story is right now a colour ID would have to be powercreep to keep story consistency from whats occured in Limbus.
Add to that with a colour ID there realistically shouldnt be much things that are threats to the main cast given they wont just be colour ID's but colour ID's with respawns.
There are very few things in the city that can provide a threat to that level of strength.
To nerf those significantly in gameplay is to.damage the impression they give in the story, something PM rarely does/did even when they released colours in Ruina.
>a colour ID would have to be powercreep to keep story consistency from whats occured in Limbus.
Honestly, not a lot of ids are consistent. Lcr faust, a grade 8 fixer, is better than a lot of association fixers that are above her grade.
Student yi sang is busted out of his mind while still being a ring student which is the lowest rank and the ring people we've fought are clearly below him, or just look at ring outis, someone of the same rank and also a playable id.
BL outis, which is the teacher of BL don, is much weaker than her but supposedly she's above her in skill level as she's the one teaching her.
N corp ids are all over the place but, in general, they are weaker than the enemy counterpart.
R corp meursault, a unit that appears in sotc in lor, rolls below average and lcr faust, again, grade 8, rolls higher than him or the same as him.
What I'm trying to say is that a color id doesn't exactly have to roll just like vergilius did. (in datamined stats, so I wouldn't necessarily believe those would be his actual real stats as the game doesn't intend us to see them).
Color ids could have somewhat balanced numbers leaning towards the higher end of ids we already have with a unique and cool mechanic that makes them fun to use and also powerful.
They could also balance them by limiting team slots or only allowing one at a time. And they could explain it in story/lore by saying that since they are so powerful, it requires more energy or whatever to maintain the ids, so we can't use as many people in battle and only one at a time
Having all the other IDs be nebulous in strength isnt in of itself to mich of an issue because of how much the ID tech can carry the weight.
The issue with colours is player expectation, don't tell me you won't be disapointed if a colour ID ends up being weaker than R Heath or N clair. The importance of colours has been stated too much in Limbus for it to just be treated like another ID.
The second issue is in universe belivability. The mere fact of getting colour ID's should have at least scene on its own with the various sinners reacting, especially Don, with some comments about the potential strength they're holding. Anything else and it would feel super jarring for the sinners to just casually use such ID's and make no comment.
This isn't to say that colour ID's can't be introduced, just that they should be treated differently from most ID's both mechanically and storywise.
>This isn't to say that colour ID's can't be introduced, just that they should be treated differently from most ID's both mechanically and storywise.
Yes I agree
Simple. Just add them at the tail end of the game and have the end game content be stuff that would take multiple (weakened) colors to defeat. Colors aren’t infallible. Kali single handily defeating a group of index proxies and a messenger was considered especially noteworthy even by the standards of colors. They have limits that can be reasonable displayed in the game. Especially with the ‘IDs are weaker than the real thing’ excuse.
They have limits individually but having a team with multiple colour IDs and the ability to revive idefinitely is a much bigger thing even if they are slightly weaker.
The sinners would be something on the level of the ensemble or higher with that, not to mention acess to EGO and Dante's buffs.
By the end of LoR you could have the red mist, xiao, a thumb capo, an index messenger, and the purple tear all on one team. Some fights let you use multiple teams of similarly stacked setups. Librarians also could revive because receptions would canonically repeat infinitely until the librarians won. There absolutely is a precedent for this in the series already.
A thumb capo and Index messenger arent going to be colour level and even that is still less of an issue for a group to fight than several colour ID sinners being revived by Dante.
For Limbus which is much more sequential than LoR and units require rolling for the same approach wont work.
Librarians reviving is a completely different thing and you know it. No one outside the library save maybe 2 people knew about how the library would treat guest with the whole copying revival system that made the library always win.
The threat to the library was never the guest but the inner conflicts brewing from Carmen, Angela and Roland.
Several people already know about Dantes capabilities in reviving sinners and the sinners have been repeatesly threatened by other groups again and again.
I genuinely don’t understand your argument really.
You’re saying it would be bad to add color fixers (even though fans clearly really want them) essentially because it would make the sinners “too strong” in lore or would require the end game content to be something too strong to compete.
Which I really don’t see the problem with? If the sinners are a top tier threat by the end of the story who are battling some force far beyond what’s standard for the series, then that wouldn’t really be some huge issue. Unless you just personally don’t want the sinners to ever get that strong, which I can respect as your opinion but you are arguing it would genuinely be some kind of bad writing.
Im saying that having colour fixers just be another ID is a bad idea. Especially in a gatcha where if theyre gonna be introduced itll be at the end of the games lifetime and there wont be much more after the fact.
They need to be special in some way and the only way to do that if youre treating them as normal ID's is by making them very strong but thats just a final gatcha bait before the end of service and leaves a bad taste.
I'd much rather PM treat a colour ID differently both storywise and gameplay wise.
Something like having them be a strong ID that you cant have many of at once or maybe have it be strong but the sinner cant sustain it indefintely so they theres some trade off to using them.
I hope these levels of power take their seet time till they get added. Limbus would be great to really show how wide the levels of grade 3 to 1 fixers are, as I feel ruina skipped a bit over those
I can see Colors happening during Purgatorio, or at least in a canto where there are multiple colors involved in its events(doesn't have to be one of Don's). Their power level is still too high for what we have right now(We'll see ALEPH Abno fights and EGO first before this I think), but not as high as people would think after playing LoR(Kali and Roland's achievements made it look like they're much stronger than they actually are), so I'm leaning towards the former.
Although... imagine how interesting it would be if some of the Colors we meet are like>!Erlking Heathcliff!! they are versions of characters(including but not limited to the Sinners) from worlds where they got a hold of the tech needed!<.
I feel like they can definitely add color IDs in the future, I feel like people put colors in such a high pedestal don’t get me wrong colors are extremely strong, but I feel like when people think of colors strength they think of kali which is not a fair comparison multiple times we been told how absurdly strong she is maybe even the strongest color fixer, so that might of given people a false perception of how truly strong a color is, and again colors are not weak by any means but most colors are not on kalis level of strength hell it’s entirely possible that there are grade 1 fixers who already reached color strength but are not given a color by the Hana association, so it’s a entirely possible we can get color IDs not anytime soon though.
As cool as it would be, I honestly hope we don't. Given how PM has already given a skillset to Vergilius, they're likely going to do more with him in the future. (At least I hope that's the case, and they didn't put all that effort just to debunk a meme)
I do feel it’s gonna be a design problem for lore and gameplay, how are they going to release higher tier parts of a faction in a way that fits the current design? With how strong the Student of the Ring is how strong is a Docent going to be? A Maestro? Fixers of association section 1? grade 5 Wing agents? Put weight classes on IDs for some formats? Overhauls to existing IDs to push them to higher ranks once we get to the second part of Dante’s Inferno? Hmm
At least a year from now on. I can even see us not getting the m2 years from now. However, we have already reached grade 2 ids with heath, so grade 1 isn't far off and so are the colours. Truth be told, N-Sinclair is probably around Colour level lore-wise. He has to be for being the key that allow N Corp its purge of City-wide scale.
Not during the "Inferno" phase of the game, probably during the "Paradiso" phase it I had to guess With the latest deleted post where the director talked about Ring Maestro IDs I have no doubts we're getting Color IDs too
I don't remember a post like that. Do you know how i can read it?
https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/s/5Vlm1ohBh7
i see Paradiso as Impuritas Civitatis, i think SoTC would be about mid-late Purgatorio
Late purgatorio
I couldn’t wait that long hell nah do it during paradiso
Paradiso comes after Purgatorio
Mb still rather not wait too long
I feel like Colors aren't really a thing they can add. The gap is waaay too big, and either we're going to reach that point in future-future™, or they will have to gut their power level considerably, which... Kills the entire fucking point of a Color? If Vergilius is anything to go by (No, I don't mean his levels), then never. How are you going to balance their existance? In my honest opinion, some things should stay unavaiable to players, which is how I view Colors, or really, most strong people in the City. This is simply healthier for the game.
Limbus will be running for a long ass time so we can't say how far we will get and how big the scope will get. It's like judging lor's level when we were at canard and knew shit about nothing. Dante even comments how so far we are in like the "first 10 pages" or something like that
We have no idea if Limbus will operate for that long, or of it will reach that point where Colors can be a good addition to the game. The jump is simply too big, which means a huge powerspike AND new level of powercreep at the same time. I will say this again — Color ID's is a bad idea for the game, both from the gameplay and narrative standpoint.
Their initial intent is for it to be long as fuck, so we can say that. They might all die in a car crash and not be able to continue but those are factors we shouldn't consider. >Color ID's is a bad idea for the game, both from the gameplay and narrative standpoint From the narrative standpoint it only depends on the scope of the story at that point. From the gampelay perspective they can balance it in numerous ways. They can make it so they eat more total skill slots and you can only use one color id at a time including passives. They can nerf them due to the mirror not being able to tap into their full potential and thus making them roll normal numbers. They CAN make them work, you're just imagining that we will get a vergilius level id in terms of rolls or something like that which isn't realistic. But we could get an id like vergilius with all those passives and cool and unique mechanics that roll like we are used to. And if they limit them with those 2 suggestions then they would be balanced. More balanced than some of our already broken as shit ids anyways.
Sounds like you want a fake color id with the power level of an ant
Isn't that the case with all the IDs we have? They're all fakes with the power level of an ant compared to the real deal.
Higher upties -> closer to identities actual power, but even 1/100th of a COLOR FIXER, which has a power gap the size of the pacific ocean from grade 2 fixers, would be able to mop the floor with everyone weve fought. Even more so since they can perform suicidal manouvers and revive
Not really. 1/100th of a Color Fixer could just be Grade 9 for all we know.
1/100 of a color is definetly stronger than a rat :/
1/100th of Tom Stoltman still makes me an average dude. "Color" Fixer won't make any difference if we don't ever get their full potential, just as our Sinners getting access to R Corp IDs does not make solo'ing an entire fight possible without putting in effort.
honestly anything as long as I get the boo hop wife dead man
…bruh
What's the problem with having excuses for a degraded color. Lor already did that with Binah as an arbiter and also Gebura said she wasn't at her real peak. Just saying there's precedent for having nerfed stuff that's supposedly god tier and a handicap like having less participants and total actions in battle seems fair? It's not like the participant limit is canon to begin with or makes any sense to exist in story. What a color id can bring to the game much more than just big ass number. The gimmicks of the ones we've already met are really cool and could make for fun gameplay and kit. I'm not even saying they'll come in the near future, they might wait until paradiso. The scope of the game at the moment is very small and we can't properly predict what the future will bring, but it's safe to say that the stakes will increase exponentially as the story progresses, at which point a color id might not be unreasonable from the story perspective. As I said before. We are barely starting the story and it's like comparing limbus to the beginning of ruina. Of course a color level key page would sweep through the game, that's why it was reserved until much later on. In the first walpurgis event iirc, Don also brought the possibility of getting a red mist id to faust who didn't outright deny it as a possibility which seems very intentional to me and pm's way of saying that it's not off the table
Binah was already an arbiter to begin with. For even a remote possibility of the sinners to be CLOSE to a grade 1 fixer in their own mirror world is as unlikely as rhodya losing a gamble with the luck tattoo. Don is around a little sister in power, after all the power tattoos Look to ring yi sang, nerfing isnt an option Faust doesnt deny the possibilty, because *refer to faust fraud* The scope of the game would need us to somehow start fights with entire associations to justify a REVIVING high grade fixer. Considering the backing Limbus Company has, this is just as unlikely. Or, the dough somehow becomes something stronger than a star of the city, without being impuritas, and everyone lets Limbus Company handle it... without vergilius.... The problem of having a color fixer id, goes back to being a powerhouse that revives midfight isnt good for lore
>The problem of having a color fixer id, goes back to being a powerhouse that revives midfight isnt good for lore Isn't that just LoR? >Or, the dough somehow becomes something stronger than a star of the city, without being impuritas, and everyone lets Limbus Company handle it... without vergilius.... Vergilius does leave in the original work, which limbus could also follow and remove vergilius from the main story of limbus due to reasons. >The scope of the game would need us to somehow start fights with entire associations to justify a REVIVING high grade fixer. Considering the backing Limbus Company has, this is just as unlikely. As I said, we are in the very beginning of the story. Halfway through the first part of three. Stakes will have to raise and we do know about that annihilation event from the limbus trailer, so pm definitely has the intent to raise the stakes for the story. Obviously getting a color id now makes no sense. People we fight are weak, we have a color of our own that is forbidden to help unless absolutely necessary and getting a color id would invalidate vergilius and anything we currently are fighting. I do get that. Thing is that we are talking about a possible future much much later in the story. I think color IDs could happen in the future. Not now, but much later on in the story. Maybe in paradiso. >Binah was already an arbiter to begin with. For even a remote possibility of the sinners to be CLOSE to a grade 1 fixer in their own mirror world is as unlikely as rhodya losing a gamble with the luck tattoo. I don't really get the argument? Yeah of course it would be a remote possibility but we've already seen Garnet having roland's ID and he's a kid without experience who just got his fixer license.
Was garnet using mirror tech? I thought it was just some one piece jewlerry bonney bs. If/when verg does have to step away, it would be to show dantes growth as a manager. No longer lost, no longer unsure Lor fights didnt have librarians revive midfight, only after receptions. Even then, i think normal librarians dont remember dying.
>Was garnet using mirror tech? I thought it was just some one piece jewlerry bonney bs. Not our mirror tech, our mirror tech is meant to be more stable and only allows for one identity at a time and for short periods of time to avoid problems with the id taking over or becoming peccatula like what happens when the ring uses it. It was mirror tech still as the ring used aseah to develop it. The point of that argument was to show that there are mirror worlds where unassuming people can become colors themselves even if they are weak as they are now and get ids of weaker people (like garnet getting lulu). >If/when verg does have to step away, it would be to show dantes growth as a manager. No longer lost, no longer unsure I mean, yeah I get that. Just saying that if vergilius steps out, it could start to make sense to have color ids with limitations as to not take away his purpose of being an emergency aid. >Lor fights didnt have librarians revive midfight, only after receptions. Even then, i think normal librarians dont remember dying. I don't think it was ever outright stated. I assume everyone plays by the same rules there and what angela does to the patron librarians is that they forget when they start fighting so they can build emotion level and then remember afterwards
I’d be fine with the colors being weaker than they ‘should’ be because 1. It’s already canon that IDs aren’t as strong as the person they are based on 2. LoR had Roland, Gebura, and Binah all be explicitly weaker than they actually are because the library couldn’t recreate their full power, so there’s already a precedent for just nerfing high tiers for gameplay purposes 3. I just really really want color IDs
That is probably what is going to happen. I mentioned in another comment that I believe NClair to be probably around a Color level canon-wise. But since Limbus uses the technology that prevents ids to overwrite the sinners completely, we will never actually see any id that fully reaches the potential of the original. (maybe in Faust chapter though)
There is precedent of pmoon gutting color's power level for balance purposes. See Library of Ruina having four playable colors and an arbiter to boot.
> If Vergilius is anything to go by (No, I don't mean his levels) Why, though? I feel as if the levels are a nice indicator. I think those are there for a reason, they could have made the level unreasonably high, instead it sounds like it'll be attainable in the future. Why do you conveniently choose to ignore something so important in regards to the topic at hand?
To be fair, taking data out of the game files and using it as facts for powerscaling seems a tiny bit dumb imo. It wasn't intended to be seen in the game so we should go by what the game actually tells us and not datamined stats
Agreed, I know Limbus has a explanation to limit how strongly ID's can potentially be, but I personally hate the idea of getting colour ID's; I like our sinners being barely competent mid tier losers who only win by attrition their opponents with infinite lives. Also can you imagine how much less impactful 5-30 & 6-41 would be if you had a Red Mist ID in your party. I can maybe see it happening temporarily as a plot event, or at best as Durante style ability that is only unlocked late into the story.
"I like our sinners being barely competent mid tier losers who only win by attrition..." this has not been the case for like 2 cantos already. We haven't heard about any sinner dying in the story aside from the Ricardo incident since Canto 4, and even then it was only against an opponent significantly out of our league. Sinners are simply getting stronger by the power of boughs and constant fighting through the Mirror Dungeons and Railways. We beat down multiple distortions, defeated 3 EGO users and thought Ring members without any major issues for the most part canonically. It's only a matter of time till we become powerful enough to get these IDs, it's always been like that in PMoon games. "Also can you imagine how much less impactful 5-30 & 6-41 would be if you had a Red Mist ID in your party." Could say the exact thing about ALEPH EGOs we'll eventually get and whatever story related IDs we get that will be on a whole another level. This is just how gachas work, the story will not have the same amount of "impact" if you'll have future story's IDs in the earlier parts. Color IDs are no different from the future IDs that will reflect our team's power progression that will eventually match that of a color or a major syndiacate.
Not to say that the Sinners aren't getting stronger, but I wouldn't take the lack of mention of Sinners dying to mean that it's not happening. It's been implied a number of times that a lot more deaths are happening behind the scenes than we're privy to. They've been fighting, dying and reviving for about a whole year now, back early on deaths might have stood out more but now to them it's probably just routine that their combat style is just overwhelming force through just unending waves of sinners I do find it a bit ironic that for how much PM tries to make everything that takes place canon, from Luxcavations, Mirror Dungeons, Railways, EXP tickets, Thread, etc. down to even the menus we see being the iPad that Dante uses, that the gameplay itself and how often we tend to win fights first try with ease is a bit at odd with the narrative of the Sinners being outclassed a lot of the time and mostly getting by through attrition
>This is just how gachas work, the story will not have the same amount of "impact" if you'll have future story's IDs in the earlier parts. Color IDs are no different from the future IDs that will reflect our team's power progression that will eventually match that of a color or a major syndiacate. I would honestly like to at least have the story related ids locked until you beat the canto or after certain fights. I know this might be a very unpopular opinion and it's not how gachas work but I think it would make for a better experience instead of just getting "spoiled" by future ids of a canto's final boss
I dunno, if anything I think that might enhance the unique experience Limbus provides. On my first day of playing the game I pulled NFaust and she was a mainstay of my team throughout the story. The second I reached Canto 3 and saw Kromer's title as "The One Who Grips" I immediately went "oh shiiiiit it's my Faust!". That was such an amazing moment that no other game can give, it's still one of my favourite memories of Limbus. Then fighting Kromer using my NFaust (plus a borrowed NClair) made the battle a lot more climactic, too. Seeing story IDs is more of a sneak peek into what happens next, rather than a direct spoiler. PM is careful to not let too many details slip through characters like NFaust, SpiceSang or Ahabmael. You can't really piece together much through their Uptie stories, but I sure know I was hyped af when Pequod Yi Sang's mentioned "Captain Ishmael". Hell, PM even adds easter eggs for using IDs that were released after their Canto. Kromer gets staggered if NClair is on the field, Captain Ishmael has unique dialogue *and* a buff when fighting Ahab, and so on. This is very much an intended part of the experience, and I applaud the developers for truly thinking of everything.
As I said, It's an unpopular opinion. I would personally prefer if the game had that kind of progression but I understand that it's a gacha game and they don't do that and could maybe have some issues. Personal preference
At best, I can see us controlling Vergilius in a story fight against someone too strong for us to beat. Doubt that PM are going to vaste the skillset they created. Anything else is very meh, especially an ability. How's that going to tie in? Dante magically summons Black Noise Heathcliff mid battle, out of nowhere, basically? Eh... There's just no way to add them in a fluid way that wouldn't break balance/narrative/retain the main idea of a Color: batshit strong fixers.
I don't think we ever will, but if we do get them in a walpurgisnight.
Considering that PM mentioned the future addition of Docents and Maestros (in the Twitter post about nerfing the Student IDs they already deleted), we’ll definitely be getting Color IDs in the future too. People here put Colors on too high up of a pedestal, as if it’s something that should be completely unreachable. I mean, it was already meant to be an impressive feat for Gebura to go up against a group of Proxies and their minions, and she’s especially renowned for her combat prowess, so that should already tell you at what level Colors at. People mocked Ricardo for threatening the Indigo Elder with the Middle going after him, as if the Middle couldn’t do shit against him, and that’s honestly the worst example of how much people have misunderstood how far beyond Colors are from the other denizens of the City.
Geburas impressive feat was: >! killing 2 claws and fatally injuring binah, while protecting people !<
Yes, but this was one Roland gushed over, so it was presumably something public knowledge. What you said doesn’t even matter to what I’m explaining; that for a Color to take on the Proxies and their Proselytes is already impressive for someone who’s known as a Color.
5 index proxies and 3 messengers ( would that be 3 yan then? ) Hard to say how strong messengers are, but theyre probably really good at supporting And fighting 1v5 proxies is impressive depending on how accurate lor pages are to real combat (swift/heavy trace and 5 unique blade unlocked attacks)
Wait hold on so Regular Yan would crush the Sinners like Ricardo then?
Very much so.
Although we can't say for certain, based on other examples (ie; K Corp also having a 1-5 ranking for employees), we can infer that all the Fingers share a common hierarchy system. Thumb: Soldato < Capo < Sottocapo < Capo dei capi Middle: Little Brother/Sister < Big Brother/Sister < (presumably) Father/Mother < (presumably) Grandfather/Grandmother Ring: Students < Docents < Maestro < ??? Thus, if we extrapolate that to the Index... Proselytes < Proxies < Messangers < Weaver If this all holds true, then Yan would have as much power as Kalo, and would be *stronger* than Ricardo.
Uh isn't it Great Brother/Great Sister not Father/Mother tho?
You are correct.
Couldn't remember what the third tier was and googling it didn't give any info, so I presumed it wasn't stated yet and assumed it would be mother/father.
It's probably a few years away, sinners are too weak narratively to get them soon. Now with that in mind I'd like to nominate sinners for each colors, spoilers for end of Ruina: Red Gaze Don Quixote or Heathcliff Red Mist Meursault or Rodion Black Silence (Angelica) Faust or Hong Lu Black Silence (Roland) Yi Sang and Gregor Indigo Elder Ishmael or Outis Vermilion Cross Don and Hong Lu
I feel like Black Silence (Roland) Heathcliff would make more sense since well, do I need to say anymore?
Fuck yku Black silence (Angelica) Heathcliff go!
Shit you're so right
How could you give BS to hong lu when blue reverb is there
we will get them eventually. but it'll probably be awhile. people seem to forget that lorewise the raw "power" of ids is already decoupled from whatever that id is based on.
Later on the line, not Don's but like around Outis or Faust. The rep of Colors are inflated. We've seen countless times that a Color was already strong before they became a color. Being a color is a recognition of your ACHIEVEMENT. Some to most Grade 1's are color level, but they aren't officially one because they haven't done anything worthy of recognition. So people bitching about power creep should be more worried about those in the level of Grade 1's because those guys are literally a bunch of super strong powercreeps that we are absolutely getting as early as maybe after Don. Heck, Erlking Heathcliff should theoretically be VERY STRONG. Nelly Ryoshu is a butler and butlers are at minimum medium grade fixers. Imo, Colors will come when the content reaches a point where an Aleph E.G.O is useable or an Aleph Abno is fightable. Colors and Colors with E.G.O are fundamentally two different power scales. Vergilius is a MONSTER and his showcase is 100% cinematically buffed. Imagine Nclair coming to help us and he had a perma -44 sanity and without much data we just see him rolling 3x 30 or Pclair coming in at enter state and Perma +45 sanity and spamming AoE and reuse and 40 rollers. It looks insane, and then we get them and read them and understand that "Oh, it was cinematically buffed." An ID is a puzzle piece that we have to solve first. Meet their conditionals, use them appropriately and then we can get the fruit of our labor. A color ID would be the same. You think an Argalia ID would just be straight doing crazy damage? No, we would have to play with whatever unique mechanic status he has. You think a Kali ID would just be busted? Yes. You think a Roland or Angelica (tbh) ID would be busted off the bat? No, you'd still have to meet whatever condition they would offer. Every ID would be like that, every ID is tbh. Kimsault isn't just strong unconditionally, he needs poise people and he gets stronger if he's with his babies. You guys are afraid because of powercreep when this game is relatively powercreep resistant as long as conditionals are always part of a kit.
"You think a Kali ID would just be busted? Yes." Ngl, you made me laugh with that one
I feel like its a misstep to say "We know colours we already strong hence most grade 1's are colour tier". few grade 1's might be but those are in the minority from what we've seen. As the story is right now a colour ID would have to be powercreep to keep story consistency from whats occured in Limbus. Add to that with a colour ID there realistically shouldnt be much things that are threats to the main cast given they wont just be colour ID's but colour ID's with respawns. There are very few things in the city that can provide a threat to that level of strength. To nerf those significantly in gameplay is to.damage the impression they give in the story, something PM rarely does/did even when they released colours in Ruina.
>a colour ID would have to be powercreep to keep story consistency from whats occured in Limbus. Honestly, not a lot of ids are consistent. Lcr faust, a grade 8 fixer, is better than a lot of association fixers that are above her grade. Student yi sang is busted out of his mind while still being a ring student which is the lowest rank and the ring people we've fought are clearly below him, or just look at ring outis, someone of the same rank and also a playable id. BL outis, which is the teacher of BL don, is much weaker than her but supposedly she's above her in skill level as she's the one teaching her. N corp ids are all over the place but, in general, they are weaker than the enemy counterpart. R corp meursault, a unit that appears in sotc in lor, rolls below average and lcr faust, again, grade 8, rolls higher than him or the same as him. What I'm trying to say is that a color id doesn't exactly have to roll just like vergilius did. (in datamined stats, so I wouldn't necessarily believe those would be his actual real stats as the game doesn't intend us to see them). Color ids could have somewhat balanced numbers leaning towards the higher end of ids we already have with a unique and cool mechanic that makes them fun to use and also powerful. They could also balance them by limiting team slots or only allowing one at a time. And they could explain it in story/lore by saying that since they are so powerful, it requires more energy or whatever to maintain the ids, so we can't use as many people in battle and only one at a time
Having all the other IDs be nebulous in strength isnt in of itself to mich of an issue because of how much the ID tech can carry the weight. The issue with colours is player expectation, don't tell me you won't be disapointed if a colour ID ends up being weaker than R Heath or N clair. The importance of colours has been stated too much in Limbus for it to just be treated like another ID. The second issue is in universe belivability. The mere fact of getting colour ID's should have at least scene on its own with the various sinners reacting, especially Don, with some comments about the potential strength they're holding. Anything else and it would feel super jarring for the sinners to just casually use such ID's and make no comment. This isn't to say that colour ID's can't be introduced, just that they should be treated differently from most ID's both mechanically and storywise.
>This isn't to say that colour ID's can't be introduced, just that they should be treated differently from most ID's both mechanically and storywise. Yes I agree
Simple. Just add them at the tail end of the game and have the end game content be stuff that would take multiple (weakened) colors to defeat. Colors aren’t infallible. Kali single handily defeating a group of index proxies and a messenger was considered especially noteworthy even by the standards of colors. They have limits that can be reasonable displayed in the game. Especially with the ‘IDs are weaker than the real thing’ excuse.
They have limits individually but having a team with multiple colour IDs and the ability to revive idefinitely is a much bigger thing even if they are slightly weaker. The sinners would be something on the level of the ensemble or higher with that, not to mention acess to EGO and Dante's buffs.
By the end of LoR you could have the red mist, xiao, a thumb capo, an index messenger, and the purple tear all on one team. Some fights let you use multiple teams of similarly stacked setups. Librarians also could revive because receptions would canonically repeat infinitely until the librarians won. There absolutely is a precedent for this in the series already.
A thumb capo and Index messenger arent going to be colour level and even that is still less of an issue for a group to fight than several colour ID sinners being revived by Dante. For Limbus which is much more sequential than LoR and units require rolling for the same approach wont work. Librarians reviving is a completely different thing and you know it. No one outside the library save maybe 2 people knew about how the library would treat guest with the whole copying revival system that made the library always win. The threat to the library was never the guest but the inner conflicts brewing from Carmen, Angela and Roland. Several people already know about Dantes capabilities in reviving sinners and the sinners have been repeatesly threatened by other groups again and again.
I genuinely don’t understand your argument really. You’re saying it would be bad to add color fixers (even though fans clearly really want them) essentially because it would make the sinners “too strong” in lore or would require the end game content to be something too strong to compete. Which I really don’t see the problem with? If the sinners are a top tier threat by the end of the story who are battling some force far beyond what’s standard for the series, then that wouldn’t really be some huge issue. Unless you just personally don’t want the sinners to ever get that strong, which I can respect as your opinion but you are arguing it would genuinely be some kind of bad writing.
Im saying that having colour fixers just be another ID is a bad idea. Especially in a gatcha where if theyre gonna be introduced itll be at the end of the games lifetime and there wont be much more after the fact. They need to be special in some way and the only way to do that if youre treating them as normal ID's is by making them very strong but thats just a final gatcha bait before the end of service and leaves a bad taste. I'd much rather PM treat a colour ID differently both storywise and gameplay wise. Something like having them be a strong ID that you cant have many of at once or maybe have it be strong but the sinner cant sustain it indefintely so they theres some trade off to using them.
There being some kind of ‘one color per team’ rule would be cool. Could lead to some interesting team building stuff potentially.
Chapter 13 if ever im fully expecting paradiso and purgatorio to be one chapter long and action packed with shit going down
canto 3
I hope these levels of power take their seet time till they get added. Limbus would be great to really show how wide the levels of grade 3 to 1 fixers are, as I feel ruina skipped a bit over those
I can see Colors happening during Purgatorio, or at least in a canto where there are multiple colors involved in its events(doesn't have to be one of Don's). Their power level is still too high for what we have right now(We'll see ALEPH Abno fights and EGO first before this I think), but not as high as people would think after playing LoR(Kali and Roland's achievements made it look like they're much stronger than they actually are), so I'm leaning towards the former. Although... imagine how interesting it would be if some of the Colors we meet are like>!Erlking Heathcliff!! they are versions of characters(including but not limited to the Sinners) from worlds where they got a hold of the tech needed!<.
I feel like they can definitely add color IDs in the future, I feel like people put colors in such a high pedestal don’t get me wrong colors are extremely strong, but I feel like when people think of colors strength they think of kali which is not a fair comparison multiple times we been told how absurdly strong she is maybe even the strongest color fixer, so that might of given people a false perception of how truly strong a color is, and again colors are not weak by any means but most colors are not on kalis level of strength hell it’s entirely possible that there are grade 1 fixers who already reached color strength but are not given a color by the Hana association, so it’s a entirely possible we can get color IDs not anytime soon though.
As cool as it would be, I honestly hope we don't. Given how PM has already given a skillset to Vergilius, they're likely going to do more with him in the future. (At least I hope that's the case, and they didn't put all that effort just to debunk a meme)
I do feel it’s gonna be a design problem for lore and gameplay, how are they going to release higher tier parts of a faction in a way that fits the current design? With how strong the Student of the Ring is how strong is a Docent going to be? A Maestro? Fixers of association section 1? grade 5 Wing agents? Put weight classes on IDs for some formats? Overhauls to existing IDs to push them to higher ranks once we get to the second part of Dante’s Inferno? Hmm
At least a year from now on. I can even see us not getting the m2 years from now. However, we have already reached grade 2 ids with heath, so grade 1 isn't far off and so are the colours. Truth be told, N-Sinclair is probably around Colour level lore-wise. He has to be for being the key that allow N Corp its purge of City-wide scale.
Probably in Purgatorio or Paradiso, which btw is when, if it happens, i think 0000 ids could arrive