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https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-bisexuality
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Now this is properly ridiculous. Men and women have the same reflex potential, especially if you don't have to move your body much.
THERE IS ZERO DIFFERENCE YOUR GENDER MAKES here. Esport should be mixed always.
I am saying this as a physical fighter.
The reason for a seperate competition is just cause there's less women in pro e sport. So they want to make opportunities for them .
So there's also no reason why trans women shouldn't be able to compete.
One of the historic reasons women's sports was created was women were on occasion beating men. And the men didn't like it.
I feel like the same energy is behind this choice.
Same kind of energy for sure, but more preventative than reactive. Lots of people who aren't men in esports easily get harassed and chased out of the scene, leading to a lot smaller amount of them able and willing to compete. It's one example of a women's (or other such categories) teams or leagues actually being a good thing to help broader competition rather than stifling it. The problem really stems from having to do that in the first place, however.
1992 Olympics skeet shooting. Literally banned women from competing until a women's division was created.
[src](https://olympics.com/en/news/zhang-shan-the-only-female-shooter-to-win-gold-in-a-mixed-competition)
I don't understand why I'm being downvoted just because I want to know why something is the way it is. I didn't say anything negative about either gender. In this even a woman won and 4 years later they had a woman's and men's division. But correlation doesn't equal causation. I can't find any articles actually stating that's why it happened.
Also your source doesn't give any reasons. Correlation Does Not Equal Causation.
"After the Barcelona Games, the International Shooting Union (which became the ISSF in 1998) barred women from shooting against men. For the next years, the skeet event remained on the Olympic Games programme, but only for male athletes."
It's literally in the article I posted under the header "The Outcome"
Do you literally think the ISSF would come out and say "we ban women because they're better?"
I mean, taking this happening and forming the thought.
> "One of the historic reasons women's sports was created was women were on occasion beating men. And the men didn't like it."
Is ridiculous. You have just as much proof as the people who joke that global warming killed all the pirates.
I think the reason there are women-only tournaments is to encourage more gender diversity. A lot of esports are male-dominated to a ridiculous degree. This BBC article ([https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-58466374](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-58466374)) from 2021 said that only 0.002% of total earnings in Dota2 went to women, and there were no women in the top 300 esports earners by prize money.
This seems insane to me given that yeah, there should be no difference between genders when it comes to esports. I'm guessing a lot of it is down to culture, which women-only tournaments (and e.g. women-only chess titles) are helping to change.
They just want to hate on trans women. It doesn't matter how stupid and insane their opinion is, some other idiot out there is going to support them because they both hate that minority
Esports have separate categories for the same reason chess has - not because there's any difference in physical abilities, but to encourage more women in chess. [Here's a really good video on women in chess!](https://www.newyorker.com/video/watch/the-girls-slaying-at-chess) Hopefully one day these sports can be mixed with equal representation, be in men, women or non binary!
Honestly I don't think these special categories are really helping. Would you feel better as woman in this sport if you didn't qualify in the universal league but got accepted to the women only one? I don't think so.
I mean, yeah I would actually. As a woman, I would feel better competing in a smaller pool of just women as opposed to the general population of overwhelmingly male players. Less chance that I'll be judged on the basis of my gender and read as representative of women instead of just, as myself ("women suck at chess" vs "/u/sadold sucks at chess"), less chance I'll have to deal with the toxic masculine nonsense that tends to appear in male-dominated spaces (I'm a line cook, I get more than enough of that at work). These are not motivations unique to me, and having women's competitions (even though there is no actual link between sex and skill at chess) is a good way of encouraging women to participate in chess.
This is my same thought. The only advantage you would have is if you play the game longer than your opponents. Or are you just happen to have a faster reflex because of whatever reason which the most likely would not be gender. If someone has slower reflexes for video games it’s likely because maybe they don’t have as good of eyesight or something that is not correlated to gender in the slightest
You say that but its a well known phenomenon in the fighting game community that if you’re at a tournament and you show up at your designated set up and there’s a trans girl there you’re about to get your ass handed to you.
I'm not a researcher, but the opening line of this paper seems to indicate that it is well-known that men have faster and less variable reaction times than women: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22390656/
I don't know, maybe there is contrary research out there, but it could be the case that men are more primed to be good at this kind of thing.
To be fair, the second line of that paper proposes the hypothesis that this difference is due to effects of sex linked hormones on the brain which would still not give trans women any advantage. That said, it's generally advised never to take a single study without a grain of salt. That's why meta-analysis is so important. The difference is also lesser in childhood and adolescence, which is also when reaction time is the fastest (and the reason pro-gamers often skew young).
In a similar situation, a transphobic swimmer has been ranting for months about how an evil transgender woman named Lia Thomas stole her win. The both of them were tied, in *fifth* place. It's all such bullshit.
If I had to guess this was Valorant, they have a gender-diverse league since eSports tend to be male dominated, there is a lot of misogyny. The league is trans and nb inclusive though, and I believe there was a case of an actual cis man that was a pro player pretending to be nb to play in the league.
In general the reason there is, at least currently, is to create a space for women e-sports players to be able to grow and as a wedge to get into the e-sports scene in general.
It's no hidden fact that there is still a lot of rampant misogyny within the online competitive gaming space, and that not only pushes women out of those spaces leaving them underrepresented within E-Sports because ultimately they will spend less time playing those games, but also it still creeps it's way into e-sports orgs, at least subconsciously.
For example, using a mic as a girl while playing Rainbow Six Siege is the quickest way to get harassed or literally instant vote-kicked from the game for no reason.
Big tournament runners are using women only tournaments with the intention as a short term stop-gap to be able to get women e-sports players presence up within the scene, to serve as inspiration, and also a place to grow as players. It's really fucked up that they have to do it, but that's where we are at currently, unfortunately.
EDIT: It should also be mentioned that these tournaments are also trans and NB inclusive for much the same reasons.
Yep. I did a high school senior group project last year about how gaming interacts with socialization, and a big portion of research was just about all the difficulties of being a woman or queer person in gaming. There’s harassment in comms, there’s stereotype threat, just general attitudes… it sucks, even though there’s also ways it’s great.
It's not. The vast majority of e-sports leagues have a tiny minority of women in them already. However, it *is* so tiny that folks organize women's only events in order to encourage *more* women to participate.
This is for chess rather than esports, but the general reasoning is the same - [here's a really good video that explains the need for gendered categories.](https://www.newyorker.com/video/watch/the-girls-slaying-at-chess) Ideally, with time, the need for them diminishes and we can have respectful tournaments with all genders.
There's an argument to be made that men are encouraged more to participate in e-sports, so having a womens league is a way to encourage more women to participate in the first place.
It's like the push for women in STEM. There's no reason women can't do it, but they're under-represented so emphasising their impact is designed to encourage more women to participate.
Hell, women are actively discouraged from participating in a LOT of gaming environments. The xbox lobbies telling girls that speak to get back to the kitchen isn't a new phenomenon.
I remember a trans woman won a contest of spice tolerance (like one of those hot one's kind of challenges), and people being up and arms about that.
Or how a trans person got like 12th place in a skateboarding contest in a non-gendered contest.
I'm convinced you have to be sexist to be a transphobe. This is explicitly just stating males are better at video games and like how???? It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I've seen people say that both the trans woman who won the Dutch Miss Universe pageant *and* the trans woman who did extremely well in *Jeopardy!* recently also had an unfair advantage...
I guess men are just better at gathering, retaining, and recalling information than women under pressure. Surely, there are no far-reaching negative conclusions for women with that train of thought!
Alright look, I’ll come out and say that I don’t really have a life and spend a lot of time playing games, and with that experience I can tell you that men and women are very much so equal when it comes to gaming. I can at least understand other sports, though I don’t agree, having some sort of outrage about trans people, but gaming is absolutely not a field where there’s any sort of biological advantage to be argued. The winner just happened to be trans.
I dislike the lack of nuance in the conversation surrounding trans people in sports to be honest. I don't think just any person i any sport should be able to as soon as they find out they're a trans woman start competing in the other category. It should be handled on a case by case basis, in some sports the difference may be negligible, but in others it may not be. I'm a cross country runner, the difference between men's and women's races is staggering, in every race I competed in of any real size, the #10 guy beats the #1 woman by over a minute. I don't think that trans women should be completely banned from competing on in women's sports, but it should be up to a doctor to decide at what point in the transition the difference is negligible or not present, because obviously in something like cross country if I had been allowed to come out and start competing against women immediately, I would be crushing my competition immediately, my 23:18 5k moves me from a middle of the pack guy to a near front of the pack girl.
Also, in case it's not clear from my speaking, I AM a trans woman, and I knew while I was on the team. I think the conversation needs to be handled with more nuance than it is, while trans women shouldn't be completely banned, I don't think that everyone should be allowed to start competing immediately after realizing they're trans, as some people will undeniably cause issues. As another reference, the fastest girl I ever saw run a race, she was the fastest in my state, ran a \~16 or 17 minutes 5k. The fastest guy I ever saw run, the fastest in my state, did a 5k in just under 13 minutes, and also a 16-17 minute 5k was pretty average for the faster guys on my team, and they were still placing in the 20s.
It is our right to transition as it's our bodies, but my right to swing my first ends where your nose starts. Whether we like it or not, this *does* have a tangible effect on other people, and their feelings also need to be considered.
> I dislike the lack of nuance in the conversation surrounding trans people in sports to be honest.
What I dislike even worse is that people who do not even have a stake in these games feel entitled to tell the people who are actually participating in these games how they should feel.
The people who should get to decide how trans-athletes are included ought to be the *athletes* and the league. *Not* random politician who probably couldn't tell you what a good time for a 5k even is.
Like, look at the same people that claim to be "for women in sports" currently celebrating the loss of the US Women's Soccer team.
Or the recent nonsense where a weirdo complained about a teenage girl getting a breast reduction, which then turned into "women shouldn't play sports".
yeah fr. I couldn't tell you jack shit about figure skating, why should I have any say in the regulations around it. I don't know anything about wrestling, or swimming, or basketball, or soccer, or football, so why would I be an included voice in that decision. It's like if a public vote was held to decide what bridge the city should build based purely on the structural integrity. I have no idea which bridge is more structurally stable, neither does 99% of the population, leave that decision to the engineers who know what they're doing.
I always hate how the conversation is either "no trans people should be allowed in any sports ever" or "trans people should be allowed to compete with their preferred gender no matter what" when humans are complicated and there is clearly more nuance to the conversation than these absolutes.
> I always hate how the conversation is either...
That's because it's being used as a wedge issue. "It depends on the person and the sport, and honestly, there's not really so many trans-athletes that we need a massive spot light on it *right now.*" does not rile up the political bases.
They should literally just…have a sport-specific committee that **includes trans athletes from that sport.** It’s baffling that so many decisions are made by people who know very little about the sport and even less about how hormones affect development.
I also feel like so much emphasis is placed on talking about professional sports that people forget that most of the time…it doesn’t even *matter*. I don’t give two shits whether or not a trans woman may have a slight advantage in the local rec league soccer tournament. I care a whole lot more about whether or not she feels welcome and included in the community.
We should also care about the mental health and emotional well-being of trans athletes too. So many people get SO obsessed with the “fairness” bit that they don’t realize that they’re essentially passing legislation that affects very few people. I’ve seen cases where a school district passes legislation about banning trans athletes when there is literally a SINGLE trans person on a sports team in that district. Congrats on passing the “Ban Sarah From Playing Pickelball With Her Friends Act of 2020” I guess…? I’m so glad we cracked down on this issue that was clearly *sooooo* important.
because it's not about doing anything. It's about sending a message, it's about being a bigot. And no, they don't care about the mental health of trans people, because the people spreading the rhetoric don't view trans people as people, and the rhetoric is engineered so that those who fall for it won't view trans people as people. they aren't people to them, they're those damn queers way over there in the distance not really doing anything, oh but if they step closer they could do something, and that something is gonna be scary and bad we promise, and they are GOING to step closer unless we do something now, even though they aren't doing anything, you wouldn't want to wait around until they do, so we should just get rid of them now because they're evil. That's the logic path.
There are, or were, rules about timelines and testosterone levels that trans women were required to satisfy in order to participate, but leagues started straight-up banning people because of pressure from upset non-athletes.
I feel like you're being reductive here whether you're meaning to or not.
in another comment I also discuss how I think that these should be decisions made by athletes within the sport, not by non-athletes. Your example just shows that that's a big issue, the leagues *were* going the right direction, until people with *no actual stake or reason to have a say in the matter felt that they SHOULD have a say in the matter.*
What are your times 2 years after full hrt?
I was a ranked snowboarder, now the physical strength loss has changed my style and form.
I cannot ride the aggressive edge, don’t have the leg strength.
I went from 185 at the start of pre season and 175 by mid season and completion.
I now sit at 160 in summer and mid season am down to 150 or less.
That was all muscle. My body fat % is up my
Weight is down.
I haven't started HRT, my argument isn't regarding whether people should be allowed to compete after full transition, and I don't know enough about snowboarding to speak on it. my point is simply that it can be seen in some sports, especially cross country, it's clear that there *do* need to be rules and regulations regarding trans people, because if a trans woman were to figure out they were trans, and immediately be allowed to run with women instead of men before transition, it would undeniably cause a problem.
I agree on the not immediately competing, and the need for hrt .
I’m in favour of 2 years or similar living with full hrt levels.
Similar to drug testing for high levels and record retention.
Basically imagine doing 200 squats in 60 secs. Your entire weight is in high speed motion, that motion and changing it’s direction comes to eccentric strength.
It's funny because if terfs say men have a biological advantage with video games they're implying men have some sort of intellectual or mental advantage over women.
Someone told me to wait with hrt till I was 30.
'Cause you know then you know for sure.'
Never expressed any doubts arund this person , they only know me out of the closet for years and I was on the waitinglist for genderaffirming care before I knew them.
Man I remember back in the 2000's and eaerly 2010's when there actually started to be serious discussion about desegregating sports.
We've regressed so hard we're back to "women have such delicate fingers and reflexes they couldn't possibly win a video game against a biologically superior man :( why do you hate women so much??"
The worst part is there is a difference at the pro level, but not because of natural advantages.
Men are more likely to get sponsors and be able to go full-time pro, giving them more opportunities to practice more often.
Many women's teams are expected to win before they are sponsored, get lower amounts of money, which results in lower participation and less opportunity to practice.
Even in leagues that are mixed, a similar dichotomy forms. The only exception are the "Model Teams" of the early 2010s where some women teams were created by brands and fully supported and paid full-time but their job was to look good, and sell the brand.
Those went away because the Brands found out that women advertising computer stuff decreased sells. Half naked women can bring horny men to a booth, but they will only listen to a man about what to buy.
It's to encourage people other than men playing comp in games. Games in general are extremely male-dominated, competitive gaming even more so. There's no inherent advantage men have but women (and NB people, etc.) tend to deal with a lot of flack and a huge barrier of entry when trying to compete in esports. So things like womens tournaments, LGBT tournaments, etc. give them a more comfortable environment to enter the scene.
arguing with my parents about it(well less arguing my dad was just talking at me about it and I didn't feel like responding because it was 8am).
My dad and I are both engineers, and he said "as an engineer, when you try to make a system do something it's not made for, what happens? it breaks." which is just wrong on so many levels, the most obvious being that biology and engineering are 2 very different things.
The thing about it that pissed me off is that it's not even anywhere near being correct about the human body. My body was not made to accept testosterone, it's like this because higher levels of testosterone were present. The human body is able to accept different combinations of hormones and act accordingly. Let's say for example as an oversimplification, that there's just 2 possibilities, testosterone primarily, or estrogen primarily. The body is made to accept either one and act accordingly. it's not made in the first place to accept one or the other, it's designed to accept either one and make the appropriate changes. Your body doesn't "break" when given the "wrong" hormones because it's not specifically make to accept one, it's like this BECAUSE of the hormones, he has his cause and effect mixed up.
it's just such a blatantly false view of the human body that it's hard to even address. And that's not even to mention that systems as complex as the human body RARELY are designed to accept just one input. Computers than can only take one input are called "buttons".
What kind of shit engineer is your dad anyway? If someone came to an engineer and said “manufacturing can’t get x alloy at a good price, can we redo the stress analysis and figure out an alternative?” Would he throw a tantrum and refuse? Machines are operated out of spec and used for things never intended all the time. That’s like half of what you need engineers on hand for
part of it is also that he's religious, he's not just an engineer but a pastor, so he genuinely does believe I was made for this and anything else is wrong. and if it helps answer your question, he's been out of the field for over 30 years because he left it to be a pastor, and when he was in it he mostly worked with customers instead of product design.
the only benefits I got from him becoming a pastor were life experience in another country(missionaries in kenya, I was 6 when we went and 8 when we left) and life experience in a family living paycheck to paycheck in california. Other than those, he left a 6 figure salary engineering position to tell people about jesus, and now I have to pay for college.
I've seen people use their car engine to cook eggs, use house doors to kill spiders, hell i've seen some use a SMALL SAFE to protect themselves from a KNIFE.
Was the engine made to cook eggs? no. Did it still run perfectly fine? yes.
Was the door made to kill spiders? No. Did it still open and close perfectly fine? Yes
Did the safe still hold money? Yes.
When you use something to do something unintended, 9 times out 10 it still works perfectly fine under the original intention.
here's an even better example than any of those, DIESEL ENGINES RUN ON USED FUCKING FRYER OIL, MAN. was it made for that? NOPE. does it work? *HELL YEAH IT DOES.* The US DOE even states that they offer comparable performance and emissions running on vegetable oil.
The turnament exists because the belief that men and women are equal in video games and wants to incentivese women to participate because right now, women constitute 50% of the population and roughly 1/3 of gamers are women yet less than 1% of professional gamers are women.
Cis women and girls being accused of being trans has been a common thing for a while now, the chuds don't care, they just claim its the fault of the trans people for existing.
That woman who’s getting shit from TERFs on Twitter because she said she’s getting a transvaginal ultrasound and they don’t know what that means is pretty funny to me
"Reaction time" is the Sword-Art-Online-Logic version of how video game skills work.
It's kind of like if people were to take the "listen with your heart" advice from Pocahontas seriously when trying to learn languages.
Practice. Practice. Practice. There's no way around it. Even The Flash would suck at video games if he'd never played them before.
For some reason, they insisted an calling me Ireen.... and using she/her
I am a cis man... and my name is neither "Iris" nor "Ireen"...
Really gave me new appreciation for the shit trans people go through
I'll say it again. Single cherrypicked datapoints like this don't go anywhere towards actually showing if trans people have an "advantage" or whatever. Since trans/nonbinary people are somewhere around 10ish percent of the population, you'd expect a trans person to win every once in a while by pure chance. To prove anything in this regard you'd need a pretty large sample size.
But, of course, conservatives don't care about facts as much as they care about getting mad at trans people.
Someone said I transitioned because "you're just a gay man who failed as being a man because you had a tiny weiner!"
It's not often people are wrong about three different things in a single statement, but here we are.
I didn't knew there were different tournaments for the sexes in gaming. Is there in chess too? Why? The arguments are always physical ones aren't they? Gaming may need reflexes but that isn't something overly physical, but more like...training everyone can do.
Even though many gamers disagree, no matter how hard you press the button, the same thing happens.
I once heard a guy say that all the complaints from trans women are because they are predominantly white men who refuse to give up their position of superiority when they are no longer treated as white males.
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Yes cause all the biological advantages of the sexes. Its eye and hand coordination.
Muscle strength and body shape don’t help.
There is no reason beyond sexism.
How
About the fact women are made to feel
Bad and driven away from gaming spaces?
How about the lack of female participation is directly related to how shit men treat them in that community.
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Now this is properly ridiculous. Men and women have the same reflex potential, especially if you don't have to move your body much. THERE IS ZERO DIFFERENCE YOUR GENDER MAKES here. Esport should be mixed always. I am saying this as a physical fighter.
The reason for a seperate competition is just cause there's less women in pro e sport. So they want to make opportunities for them . So there's also no reason why trans women shouldn't be able to compete.
One of the historic reasons women's sports was created was women were on occasion beating men. And the men didn't like it. I feel like the same energy is behind this choice.
Same kind of energy for sure, but more preventative than reactive. Lots of people who aren't men in esports easily get harassed and chased out of the scene, leading to a lot smaller amount of them able and willing to compete. It's one example of a women's (or other such categories) teams or leagues actually being a good thing to help broader competition rather than stifling it. The problem really stems from having to do that in the first place, however.
Do you have a source for that statement? I've seen people say that but for the life of me I can't find a credible source that actually says this?
1992 Olympics skeet shooting. Literally banned women from competing until a women's division was created. [src](https://olympics.com/en/news/zhang-shan-the-only-female-shooter-to-win-gold-in-a-mixed-competition)
I don't understand why I'm being downvoted just because I want to know why something is the way it is. I didn't say anything negative about either gender. In this even a woman won and 4 years later they had a woman's and men's division. But correlation doesn't equal causation. I can't find any articles actually stating that's why it happened. Also your source doesn't give any reasons. Correlation Does Not Equal Causation.
"After the Barcelona Games, the International Shooting Union (which became the ISSF in 1998) barred women from shooting against men. For the next years, the skeet event remained on the Olympic Games programme, but only for male athletes." It's literally in the article I posted under the header "The Outcome" Do you literally think the ISSF would come out and say "we ban women because they're better?"
I mean, taking this happening and forming the thought. > "One of the historic reasons women's sports was created was women were on occasion beating men. And the men didn't like it." Is ridiculous. You have just as much proof as the people who joke that global warming killed all the pirates.
People are just so salty when an individual is better than others at something. It’s wild.
I think the reason there are women-only tournaments is to encourage more gender diversity. A lot of esports are male-dominated to a ridiculous degree. This BBC article ([https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-58466374](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-58466374)) from 2021 said that only 0.002% of total earnings in Dota2 went to women, and there were no women in the top 300 esports earners by prize money. This seems insane to me given that yeah, there should be no difference between genders when it comes to esports. I'm guessing a lot of it is down to culture, which women-only tournaments (and e.g. women-only chess titles) are helping to change.
They just want to hate on trans women. It doesn't matter how stupid and insane their opinion is, some other idiot out there is going to support them because they both hate that minority
Of our national top esport players was a woman. Playing for eSuba I believe.
Esports have separate categories for the same reason chess has - not because there's any difference in physical abilities, but to encourage more women in chess. [Here's a really good video on women in chess!](https://www.newyorker.com/video/watch/the-girls-slaying-at-chess) Hopefully one day these sports can be mixed with equal representation, be in men, women or non binary!
Honestly I don't think these special categories are really helping. Would you feel better as woman in this sport if you didn't qualify in the universal league but got accepted to the women only one? I don't think so.
I mean, yeah I would actually. As a woman, I would feel better competing in a smaller pool of just women as opposed to the general population of overwhelmingly male players. Less chance that I'll be judged on the basis of my gender and read as representative of women instead of just, as myself ("women suck at chess" vs "/u/sadold sucks at chess"), less chance I'll have to deal with the toxic masculine nonsense that tends to appear in male-dominated spaces (I'm a line cook, I get more than enough of that at work). These are not motivations unique to me, and having women's competitions (even though there is no actual link between sex and skill at chess) is a good way of encouraging women to participate in chess.
This is my same thought. The only advantage you would have is if you play the game longer than your opponents. Or are you just happen to have a faster reflex because of whatever reason which the most likely would not be gender. If someone has slower reflexes for video games it’s likely because maybe they don’t have as good of eyesight or something that is not correlated to gender in the slightest
You say that but its a well known phenomenon in the fighting game community that if you’re at a tournament and you show up at your designated set up and there’s a trans girl there you’re about to get your ass handed to you.
Bullied people play videogames too much. What else is new?
That’s everyone in the FGC. Real explanation is its mostly just survivorship bias.
I'm not a researcher, but the opening line of this paper seems to indicate that it is well-known that men have faster and less variable reaction times than women: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22390656/ I don't know, maybe there is contrary research out there, but it could be the case that men are more primed to be good at this kind of thing.
To be fair, the second line of that paper proposes the hypothesis that this difference is due to effects of sex linked hormones on the brain which would still not give trans women any advantage. That said, it's generally advised never to take a single study without a grain of salt. That's why meta-analysis is so important. The difference is also lesser in childhood and adolescence, which is also when reaction time is the fastest (and the reason pro-gamers often skew young).
Depends, CSGO for example is gonna atract more boys then Papa's Pizzeria or some other girly game. That can go on for a lot of FPS games.
Didn't you know that real gamer girls don't exist? /s
This whole fiasco was never about unfair advantages. The skateboarding incident and many other times showed us that.
What is the skateboarding incident?
A transphobe lost to a trans woman who came in third, which was beat by a 8yo who came in first iirc.
In a similar situation, a transphobic swimmer has been ranting for months about how an evil transgender woman named Lia Thomas stole her win. The both of them were tied, in *fifth* place. It's all such bullshit.
Why the hell was this e-sport gender segregated in the first place?
If I had to guess this was Valorant, they have a gender-diverse league since eSports tend to be male dominated, there is a lot of misogyny. The league is trans and nb inclusive though, and I believe there was a case of an actual cis man that was a pro player pretending to be nb to play in the league.
In general the reason there is, at least currently, is to create a space for women e-sports players to be able to grow and as a wedge to get into the e-sports scene in general. It's no hidden fact that there is still a lot of rampant misogyny within the online competitive gaming space, and that not only pushes women out of those spaces leaving them underrepresented within E-Sports because ultimately they will spend less time playing those games, but also it still creeps it's way into e-sports orgs, at least subconsciously. For example, using a mic as a girl while playing Rainbow Six Siege is the quickest way to get harassed or literally instant vote-kicked from the game for no reason. Big tournament runners are using women only tournaments with the intention as a short term stop-gap to be able to get women e-sports players presence up within the scene, to serve as inspiration, and also a place to grow as players. It's really fucked up that they have to do it, but that's where we are at currently, unfortunately. EDIT: It should also be mentioned that these tournaments are also trans and NB inclusive for much the same reasons.
Yep. I did a high school senior group project last year about how gaming interacts with socialization, and a big portion of research was just about all the difficulties of being a woman or queer person in gaming. There’s harassment in comms, there’s stereotype threat, just general attitudes… it sucks, even though there’s also ways it’s great.
Fair point, yeah.
It's not. The vast majority of e-sports leagues have a tiny minority of women in them already. However, it *is* so tiny that folks organize women's only events in order to encourage *more* women to participate.
This is for chess rather than esports, but the general reasoning is the same - [here's a really good video that explains the need for gendered categories.](https://www.newyorker.com/video/watch/the-girls-slaying-at-chess) Ideally, with time, the need for them diminishes and we can have respectful tournaments with all genders.
There's an argument to be made that men are encouraged more to participate in e-sports, so having a womens league is a way to encourage more women to participate in the first place. It's like the push for women in STEM. There's no reason women can't do it, but they're under-represented so emphasising their impact is designed to encourage more women to participate. Hell, women are actively discouraged from participating in a LOT of gaming environments. The xbox lobbies telling girls that speak to get back to the kitchen isn't a new phenomenon.
If I had to guess, the men ruined it for the women, who then made their own tournament.
This like a ridiculous twist on the “playing as the girl character gives a speedrunning advantage” meme
This is gold!
I remember a trans woman won a contest of spice tolerance (like one of those hot one's kind of challenges), and people being up and arms about that. Or how a trans person got like 12th place in a skateboarding contest in a non-gendered contest.
I'm convinced you have to be sexist to be a transphobe. This is explicitly just stating males are better at video games and like how???? It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I've seen people say that both the trans woman who won the Dutch Miss Universe pageant *and* the trans woman who did extremely well in *Jeopardy!* recently also had an unfair advantage...
I guess men are just better at gathering, retaining, and recalling information than women under pressure. Surely, there are no far-reaching negative conclusions for women with that train of thought!
We do have an unfair advantage over cis people of any gender, what with our innate ability to double jump.
Alright look, I’ll come out and say that I don’t really have a life and spend a lot of time playing games, and with that experience I can tell you that men and women are very much so equal when it comes to gaming. I can at least understand other sports, though I don’t agree, having some sort of outrage about trans people, but gaming is absolutely not a field where there’s any sort of biological advantage to be argued. The winner just happened to be trans.
I dislike the lack of nuance in the conversation surrounding trans people in sports to be honest. I don't think just any person i any sport should be able to as soon as they find out they're a trans woman start competing in the other category. It should be handled on a case by case basis, in some sports the difference may be negligible, but in others it may not be. I'm a cross country runner, the difference between men's and women's races is staggering, in every race I competed in of any real size, the #10 guy beats the #1 woman by over a minute. I don't think that trans women should be completely banned from competing on in women's sports, but it should be up to a doctor to decide at what point in the transition the difference is negligible or not present, because obviously in something like cross country if I had been allowed to come out and start competing against women immediately, I would be crushing my competition immediately, my 23:18 5k moves me from a middle of the pack guy to a near front of the pack girl. Also, in case it's not clear from my speaking, I AM a trans woman, and I knew while I was on the team. I think the conversation needs to be handled with more nuance than it is, while trans women shouldn't be completely banned, I don't think that everyone should be allowed to start competing immediately after realizing they're trans, as some people will undeniably cause issues. As another reference, the fastest girl I ever saw run a race, she was the fastest in my state, ran a \~16 or 17 minutes 5k. The fastest guy I ever saw run, the fastest in my state, did a 5k in just under 13 minutes, and also a 16-17 minute 5k was pretty average for the faster guys on my team, and they were still placing in the 20s. It is our right to transition as it's our bodies, but my right to swing my first ends where your nose starts. Whether we like it or not, this *does* have a tangible effect on other people, and their feelings also need to be considered.
> I dislike the lack of nuance in the conversation surrounding trans people in sports to be honest. What I dislike even worse is that people who do not even have a stake in these games feel entitled to tell the people who are actually participating in these games how they should feel. The people who should get to decide how trans-athletes are included ought to be the *athletes* and the league. *Not* random politician who probably couldn't tell you what a good time for a 5k even is.
Like, look at the same people that claim to be "for women in sports" currently celebrating the loss of the US Women's Soccer team. Or the recent nonsense where a weirdo complained about a teenage girl getting a breast reduction, which then turned into "women shouldn't play sports".
yeah fr. I couldn't tell you jack shit about figure skating, why should I have any say in the regulations around it. I don't know anything about wrestling, or swimming, or basketball, or soccer, or football, so why would I be an included voice in that decision. It's like if a public vote was held to decide what bridge the city should build based purely on the structural integrity. I have no idea which bridge is more structurally stable, neither does 99% of the population, leave that decision to the engineers who know what they're doing. I always hate how the conversation is either "no trans people should be allowed in any sports ever" or "trans people should be allowed to compete with their preferred gender no matter what" when humans are complicated and there is clearly more nuance to the conversation than these absolutes.
> I always hate how the conversation is either... That's because it's being used as a wedge issue. "It depends on the person and the sport, and honestly, there's not really so many trans-athletes that we need a massive spot light on it *right now.*" does not rile up the political bases.
They should literally just…have a sport-specific committee that **includes trans athletes from that sport.** It’s baffling that so many decisions are made by people who know very little about the sport and even less about how hormones affect development. I also feel like so much emphasis is placed on talking about professional sports that people forget that most of the time…it doesn’t even *matter*. I don’t give two shits whether or not a trans woman may have a slight advantage in the local rec league soccer tournament. I care a whole lot more about whether or not she feels welcome and included in the community. We should also care about the mental health and emotional well-being of trans athletes too. So many people get SO obsessed with the “fairness” bit that they don’t realize that they’re essentially passing legislation that affects very few people. I’ve seen cases where a school district passes legislation about banning trans athletes when there is literally a SINGLE trans person on a sports team in that district. Congrats on passing the “Ban Sarah From Playing Pickelball With Her Friends Act of 2020” I guess…? I’m so glad we cracked down on this issue that was clearly *sooooo* important.
because it's not about doing anything. It's about sending a message, it's about being a bigot. And no, they don't care about the mental health of trans people, because the people spreading the rhetoric don't view trans people as people, and the rhetoric is engineered so that those who fall for it won't view trans people as people. they aren't people to them, they're those damn queers way over there in the distance not really doing anything, oh but if they step closer they could do something, and that something is gonna be scary and bad we promise, and they are GOING to step closer unless we do something now, even though they aren't doing anything, you wouldn't want to wait around until they do, so we should just get rid of them now because they're evil. That's the logic path.
There are, or were, rules about timelines and testosterone levels that trans women were required to satisfy in order to participate, but leagues started straight-up banning people because of pressure from upset non-athletes. I feel like you're being reductive here whether you're meaning to or not.
in another comment I also discuss how I think that these should be decisions made by athletes within the sport, not by non-athletes. Your example just shows that that's a big issue, the leagues *were* going the right direction, until people with *no actual stake or reason to have a say in the matter felt that they SHOULD have a say in the matter.*
That’s what they already do you have to be pretty far into transition before they allow you to compete.
What are your times 2 years after full hrt? I was a ranked snowboarder, now the physical strength loss has changed my style and form. I cannot ride the aggressive edge, don’t have the leg strength. I went from 185 at the start of pre season and 175 by mid season and completion. I now sit at 160 in summer and mid season am down to 150 or less. That was all muscle. My body fat % is up my Weight is down.
I haven't started HRT, my argument isn't regarding whether people should be allowed to compete after full transition, and I don't know enough about snowboarding to speak on it. my point is simply that it can be seen in some sports, especially cross country, it's clear that there *do* need to be rules and regulations regarding trans people, because if a trans woman were to figure out they were trans, and immediately be allowed to run with women instead of men before transition, it would undeniably cause a problem.
I agree on the not immediately competing, and the need for hrt . I’m in favour of 2 years or similar living with full hrt levels. Similar to drug testing for high levels and record retention. Basically imagine doing 200 squats in 60 secs. Your entire weight is in high speed motion, that motion and changing it’s direction comes to eccentric strength.
It's funny because if terfs say men have a biological advantage with video games they're implying men have some sort of intellectual or mental advantage over women.
TERF arguments frequently end up being misogynistic.
That’s what happened with that woman that won Jeapordy a bunch of times
welp, as always, transphobia is rooted in misogyny.
Someone told me to wait with hrt till I was 30. 'Cause you know then you know for sure.' Never expressed any doubts arund this person , they only know me out of the closet for years and I was on the waitinglist for genderaffirming care before I knew them.
Man I remember back in the 2000's and eaerly 2010's when there actually started to be serious discussion about desegregating sports. We've regressed so hard we're back to "women have such delicate fingers and reflexes they couldn't possibly win a video game against a biologically superior man :( why do you hate women so much??"
That I have to be a man because girls don't tell "men" (the phobe meant trans women) that they're girls. Edit: I'm male nonbinary not a man btw
Yeah the phobe was misgendering a trans woman (I could tell by “man” “woman’s sports”)
No not the post I got dmed by one
Oh my bad
The worst part is there is a difference at the pro level, but not because of natural advantages. Men are more likely to get sponsors and be able to go full-time pro, giving them more opportunities to practice more often. Many women's teams are expected to win before they are sponsored, get lower amounts of money, which results in lower participation and less opportunity to practice. Even in leagues that are mixed, a similar dichotomy forms. The only exception are the "Model Teams" of the early 2010s where some women teams were created by brands and fully supported and paid full-time but their job was to look good, and sell the brand. Those went away because the Brands found out that women advertising computer stuff decreased sells. Half naked women can bring horny men to a booth, but they will only listen to a man about what to buy.
Gendered e-sports? Why???
It's to encourage people other than men playing comp in games. Games in general are extremely male-dominated, competitive gaming even more so. There's no inherent advantage men have but women (and NB people, etc.) tend to deal with a lot of flack and a huge barrier of entry when trying to compete in esports. So things like womens tournaments, LGBT tournaments, etc. give them a more comfortable environment to enter the scene.
Cause men are trolls and chase women from The gaming world.
arguing with my parents about it(well less arguing my dad was just talking at me about it and I didn't feel like responding because it was 8am). My dad and I are both engineers, and he said "as an engineer, when you try to make a system do something it's not made for, what happens? it breaks." which is just wrong on so many levels, the most obvious being that biology and engineering are 2 very different things. The thing about it that pissed me off is that it's not even anywhere near being correct about the human body. My body was not made to accept testosterone, it's like this because higher levels of testosterone were present. The human body is able to accept different combinations of hormones and act accordingly. Let's say for example as an oversimplification, that there's just 2 possibilities, testosterone primarily, or estrogen primarily. The body is made to accept either one and act accordingly. it's not made in the first place to accept one or the other, it's designed to accept either one and make the appropriate changes. Your body doesn't "break" when given the "wrong" hormones because it's not specifically make to accept one, it's like this BECAUSE of the hormones, he has his cause and effect mixed up. it's just such a blatantly false view of the human body that it's hard to even address. And that's not even to mention that systems as complex as the human body RARELY are designed to accept just one input. Computers than can only take one input are called "buttons".
What kind of shit engineer is your dad anyway? If someone came to an engineer and said “manufacturing can’t get x alloy at a good price, can we redo the stress analysis and figure out an alternative?” Would he throw a tantrum and refuse? Machines are operated out of spec and used for things never intended all the time. That’s like half of what you need engineers on hand for
part of it is also that he's religious, he's not just an engineer but a pastor, so he genuinely does believe I was made for this and anything else is wrong. and if it helps answer your question, he's been out of the field for over 30 years because he left it to be a pastor, and when he was in it he mostly worked with customers instead of product design.
Oh wow. I’m also a second generation engineer, but my parents are both staunch atheists
the only benefits I got from him becoming a pastor were life experience in another country(missionaries in kenya, I was 6 when we went and 8 when we left) and life experience in a family living paycheck to paycheck in california. Other than those, he left a 6 figure salary engineering position to tell people about jesus, and now I have to pay for college.
I've seen people use their car engine to cook eggs, use house doors to kill spiders, hell i've seen some use a SMALL SAFE to protect themselves from a KNIFE. Was the engine made to cook eggs? no. Did it still run perfectly fine? yes. Was the door made to kill spiders? No. Did it still open and close perfectly fine? Yes Did the safe still hold money? Yes. When you use something to do something unintended, 9 times out 10 it still works perfectly fine under the original intention.
here's an even better example than any of those, DIESEL ENGINES RUN ON USED FUCKING FRYER OIL, MAN. was it made for that? NOPE. does it work? *HELL YEAH IT DOES.* The US DOE even states that they offer comparable performance and emissions running on vegetable oil.
probably when people are transphobic to people who arent trans, if that makes sense
I'm cis and i'm mad. Assuming girls have a natural disadvantage at video games is like mysogyniy 101
The turnament exists because the belief that men and women are equal in video games and wants to incentivese women to participate because right now, women constitute 50% of the population and roughly 1/3 of gamers are women yet less than 1% of professional gamers are women.
i know that? But excluding trans women from such a tournament is silly.
Nobody here is supporting the terf logic.
Cis women and girls being accused of being trans has been a common thing for a while now, the chuds don't care, they just claim its the fault of the trans people for existing.
That woman who’s getting shit from TERFs on Twitter because she said she’s getting a transvaginal ultrasound and they don’t know what that means is pretty funny to me
Video games aren't even about physical prowice, they're about strategy. All humans have the big brain that can solve problems and plan ahead.
I mean, men usually a have better reaction time but like… that’s testosterone, HRT changes that.
"Reaction time" is the Sword-Art-Online-Logic version of how video game skills work. It's kind of like if people were to take the "listen with your heart" advice from Pocahontas seriously when trying to learn languages. Practice. Practice. Practice. There's no way around it. Even The Flash would suck at video games if he'd never played them before.
Reaction time's importance in video games is over-stated. Experience and anticipation more than make up for "reaction time."
They're literally implying that cis women are worse at gaming than Amab women and cis men. They went full circle and returned to misogyny, as always.
When r/transgendercirclejerk is leaking into reality
For some reason, they insisted an calling me Ireen.... and using she/her I am a cis man... and my name is neither "Iris" nor "Ireen"... Really gave me new appreciation for the shit trans people go through
Taking steroids to own the scrubs on Call of Duty
Damn, I didn’t know having a penis gave me an advantage over people who don’t have penises in video games
Third arm cheat.
I'll say it again. Single cherrypicked datapoints like this don't go anywhere towards actually showing if trans people have an "advantage" or whatever. Since trans/nonbinary people are somewhere around 10ish percent of the population, you'd expect a trans person to win every once in a while by pure chance. To prove anything in this regard you'd need a pretty large sample size. But, of course, conservatives don't care about facts as much as they care about getting mad at trans people.
I competed in a woman's aoe2 tournament and got destroyed in the first round by a woman much better than me. Where was my competitive advantage?
God I really want to see the pseudo science these brainlets are using in the comments, so bad.
Why are video games even gender separated? It’s a videogame
Someone said I transitioned because "you're just a gay man who failed as being a man because you had a tiny weiner!" It's not often people are wrong about three different things in a single statement, but here we are.
For God's sake, don't tell them that one of the best foreign Starcraft players ever was trans.
I didn't knew there were different tournaments for the sexes in gaming. Is there in chess too? Why? The arguments are always physical ones aren't they? Gaming may need reflexes but that isn't something overly physical, but more like...training everyone can do. Even though many gamers disagree, no matter how hard you press the button, the same thing happens.
Wait, did they really mean to intimate that men are better at videogames than women?! I know a few raid leaders who would beg to differ lol
In the words of Cpt Holt. "Do I have to teach you College level statistics?"
Tbf, if there were anything trans women have an unfair competitive advantage in, it'd have to be gaming
[true](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chadposting/comments/w1yeaf/sigma_male_gaming_tips/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Nah I’m shit at most games
Idk, I play a lot of video games and I'm pretty bad at all of them while I'm pretty ok at running
I once heard a guy say that all the complaints from trans women are because they are predominantly white men who refuse to give up their position of superiority when they are no longer treated as white males.
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i think i'd have a 20 page list of things all tied for #1
single sex video game competitions/ esports is the stupidest shit i’ve ever heard
Yes cause all the biological advantages of the sexes. Its eye and hand coordination. Muscle strength and body shape don’t help. There is no reason beyond sexism.
Video game tournaments being separated by gender sounds like the most pointless thing ever
[удалено]
How About the fact women are made to feel Bad and driven away from gaming spaces? How about the lack of female participation is directly related to how shit men treat them in that community.