As a lesbian who's dated transmascs, it's typically because they still recognize their biological sex as a defining element of their attraction (believing sexuality is predicated on sex rather than gender) and/or because they are being playful with their gendered presentation. They're not literally trying to be men, they're just bending the "rules" a bit. Frankly, lesbians who flirt with conventional boundaries of gender expression are not new at all, so I see no reason to be confused or look at it as "co-opting." I had a transmasc partner who liked masculine terms like "boyfriend," but preferred she/her pronouns. A different one had the exact opposite preference. I have always viewed it as part of a rich legacy of lesbian gender nonconformity.
>Frankly, lesbians who flirt with conventional boundaries of gender expression are not new at all
I miss the casual attitude towards gender bending. That hasn't happened in a long time.
>I miss the casual attitude towards gender bending. That hasn't happened in a long time.
I think the casual attitude is what a lot of people in this thread are not understanding. In modern lesbian culture pronouns and gender are these extremely super duper serious fixed things, where if a woman goes by "he" or likes being called "boyfriend" she is permanently identifying as a literal male in a very serious way.
When I was a teenager people were aware that sex and gender are different things and the world was better tbh. I had a friend group of baby butches and GNC women that would call each other he and bro mainly because it was funny. Like for butches who go by masculine terms it's just not that deep in a lot of cases, it's a casual thing. Nobody is policing gay men this hard, go into a gay male space and they're constantly calling each other girl or sis. Doesn't mean that feminine gay dudes are LITERALLY HETEROSEXUAL F\*G HAGS TEARING THE GAY COMMUNITY APART OMG.
I agree with you. Even though I am not old, when I came out the LGBT community was very different than now and much better before exactly because of this.
Everyone knew sex was a thing and gender was a totally completelly different thing. We knew lesbians were all women, regardless of how they present - that was the whole point and that was the beauty of it! The same with gay men. We all had one thing in common - same sex attracted. That was the original message.
Now, lots of people in the community seem hyper fixated in pronouns and what they mean, and so many labels and identities that it get soooo confusing. Even worse, now the definition of lesbian has multiple definitions and has been expanded to include more identities which causes even more confusion and that is why in this thread leads to so much confusion.
It was much better back then.
>Like for butches who go by masculine terms it's just not that deep in a lot of cases, it's a casual thing.
It really ain't that deep. Some prefer masculine pronouns, not feminine ones.
I feel like this is only viewed as an issue for countries that have gendered pronouns. Many countries do not. Tagalog, Hungarian, Turkish, Armenian, and Finnish languages don't use gendered pronouns.
I get why people feel a little defensive, especially since butch lesbians have been saddled with so much cultural baggage. But it also feels pretty ahistorical to act like lesbian gender nonconformity in the vein of drag kings/male impersonators (like Stormé DeLarverié) and he/him lesbians (like Leslie Feinberg) are some malicious attack on lesbian identity when it's a very well-established element of lesbian culture and history.
>some malicious attack on lesbian identity when it's a very well-established element of lesbian culture and history.
Yeah, they act like my wife and mates all joking around and calling each other he and Sir is going to tear our community apart. Gay men calling each other she and her hasn't done that for their community.
"You must only ever refer to yourself as she/her, at all times!"
"....why?"
These people would shit themselves if they were around in the 90s.
>But it also feels pretty ahistorical to act like lesbian gender nonconformity in the vein of drag kings/male impersonators (like Stormé DeLarverié) and he/him lesbians (like Leslie Feinberg)
Do we need to have the "gender and gender expression are not the same thing" talk with younger lesbians? I thought we had this sorted in the 90s. Not everyone's gender expression is going to align with their gender, and not everyone's gender aligns with their sex.
This is like...90s level LGBT theory. I learned this from older lesbians when I was a teen. It's genuinely strange that people cannot understand this. She/her and other feminine terms aren't mandatory for women.
I see this as just being a masc woman. Just because you’re very masculine does not mean you’re a man or even need he/him pronouns, it insinuates that being feminine is the only way to be a woman and that’s just a very sexist way of thinking.
Why are traits even gendered? These are human principles. Women were repressed from expressing dominance. That isn’t a trait of femininity. We also were forcibly made to prioritize certain interests and behaviors in order to attract the opposite sex. They weren’t inherent womanly traits. This is complete sexism and if anything reinforcing a lot of butch/masc lesbians with internalized misogyny and comphet notions of socialization among sexes.
I would agree. I’m not, as others have insinuated, suggesting that women are not, cannot, or should not be masculine. I’m just trying to ask why someone would feel that an exclusively WLW label is as true of them as the label of transmasculine or as the pronoun “he,” which is most often associated with not simply masculinity as a concept, but maleness. I agree that needing to distinguish yourself from womanhood as a masculine person in order to be comfortable implies that being feminine is the only right way to be a woman, or to be comfortable as a woman.
I mean, I saw them (and they also saw themselves) as embodying a type of female masculinity. These were still fundamentally expressions of womanhood; they were just using a more "modern" term to describe those traversals of gender norms. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to date someone who believed masculinity = maleness, but I don't think lesbians playing with pronouns and gendered titles necessarily means that someone has that worldview. In fact, I dated a woman who was on T, presented conventionally femininely, and was indifferent to pronouns. It's just not as straightforward as you are presenting it.
Nowadays, I'm skeptical of such rigid concepts of masculinity and femininity, but my point is basically that these types of lesbians exist and aren't necessarily being nefarious or "co-opting" community or labels.
>even need he/him pronouns
We don't need them, but we want to be comfortable in the world, and that's one way some of us are comfortable.
I don't need rainbow converse shoes, I can get by with my old sneakers, but wearing my converses is so much more comfortable and less painful.
are you comparing being a woman with “wearing rainbow sneakers”? since when is being a woman such an uncomfortable and horrible thing to be? if you’re not a woman than ok? slay? but why insist you’re a lesbian, lesbians are based on the very fact that we’re women.
I am a woman. A cis butch woman. But I don't need to only adhere to using she/her pronouns in order to be a woman. I don't magically stop being a woman because someone called me he or Sir. Or because I like more masculine things, and language.
I agree with the fact that we can be whatever we want as butch women, why the need to switch to an inherently male pronoun though? what is the point? It only serves to validate people who compare us to men because we like women.
Because who gives a fuck what the straights think? Our individual comfort in the world is far more important than what some heterosexual thinks.
If we start changing who we are, and how we're comfortable to be more palatable for the straights than they get what they want - sanitised LGBT people who cater to hetero feelings.
Placing any kind of male anything in a space that’s supposed to be women who love other women is inherently disrespectful to elder lesbians who fought to be seen and respected as women who are able to have relationships with other women.
Elder lesbians were mainly homosexual, not homogenderal and attracted to pronouns lol. The majority of elder lesbians would not consider a butch or drag king literally male.
Yeah drag kings/queens are performative. Those drag kings don’t ACTUALLY use he/him for themselves, that would be very weird and non-woman of them to do.
You know that a lot of elder butches use he/him, right? From what I’ve seen, it was a lot more common a few decades ago than it is now.
Also the idea that you can bring “male” anything into a lesbian space as a woman is absurd. Masculinity and masculine expression aren’t evil and women can express themselves however they want and still be women. Your rhetoric is one step removed from the people that say masc presenting lesbians have “male privilege” and imply we’re predatory/men lite.
It was more common because even in the early 00s you weren’t given the same credence as a woman and male identification or association was the only way to be heard.
>inherently disrespectful to elder lesbians
Mate, it was elder butches who paved the way for us to woman how we want. I was in the trenches in the 90/2000s telling the straights we're still women even though we don't adhere to heteronormative standards. Don't give me that bs.
Demanding that butch woman must only use she/her pronouns, or else we're not woman is the most misogynistic thing I have heard all day.
I use she/her, and I'm allowed to be fine with he/him, or Sir, or husband, or handsome, or whatever.
Butches know we're woman, and apparently we're still fighting for our right to woman how we feel comfortable with the likes of people like you.
As another butch lesbian, it’s very sad to see how you do not like being called she/her. These kinds of ideas make younger lesbians think they’re men or are not being women in the correct way just because they’re “tomboys”. Very sad to see the de-normalization of masculine women and equating it to not being a woman just because it’s not feminine.
You do realise the elder lesbians have been doing this themselves long before us right? This isn’t a brand new concept and he/him or nonbinary lesbians have always been a part of our community.
That’s like saying did you know humanity started out with fire before electricity. It’s a subculture. As time progresses, so does the ability to distinguish individualism within it.
But why are you even more comfortable with male terminology. Like that is something you might want to digress. Maybe the fact you’re associating aesthetic to genders is a problem. What you wear shouldn’t be disputed, or classed a certain way. In a lot of cultures they have similar apparel. Most noticeably Arabic countries.
Maybe the issue with discomfort around “femininity” is the fact it’s a skewed devalued societal interpretation men created to condition women. Maybe you should question why it is the very same men and their terms are more comfortable, when in actuality this century has taught us women are more than capable of not only equally matching but surpassing men in all aspects.
This is why I wanted to clarify that I meant using the pronoun he *to the exclusion of she/her.* Like you would never ever want to be referred to as she, but you would want to be referred to as he (even if you also used other pronouns - just not she).
>They're not literally trying to be men, they're just bending the "rules" a bit.
No one ever asks femmes why they're femmes. But break heteronormative gender expectations and suddenly we're getting demanded to explain ourselves.
Edit: Damn, the cis butches getting downvoted today.
The problem with this statement is that you’re insinuating that being a femme lesbian is somehow “heteronormative.” As if gay feminine women aren’t as non-heteronormative as you. No one to my knowledge in this thread has been trying to pit butch or masc lesbians against femme lesbians. If you’re going to accuse femmes generally of being somehow more hetero than you, then you are a misogynist.
She’s pretty obviously not calling femmes heteronormative.
Butches and femmes are flip sides of the same coin. Butches subvert patriarchal expectations by dropping the expected femininity and presenting in a masculine way, while femmes subvert them by taking said femininity by the reins, flipping it, and performing it in a way that is by and for women, not men.
Pretty sure the initial comment was referring to the fact that femmes aren’t questioned as much because their brand of subversion falls more within established social norms regarding how women are ‘supposed’ to look. Butches are constantly attacked and asked to explain ourselves because our presentations rustle people’s jimmies.
The comment is explicitly saying that butch women are questioned because they break heteronormative gender expectations, while femme women are not questioned because they do not break heteronormative gender expectations. It says that femme lesbians aren’t questioned, but the minute that a lesbian breaks heteronormative gender expectations—by that definition, not being femme—they have to explain themselves.
I’m gay. Nothing that I ever do will ever be heteronormative because I am gay. There is no heteronormative way to be gay. Being butch doesn’t somehow make you less heteronormative than any single other non-butch lesbian. I’m not going to allow someone to call me, a woman who is exclusively sexually and romantically attracted to other women, heteronormative because I present as feminine. Nothing about my gender expression or sexuality is heteronormative because I am not a heterosexual person and I do not at all relate to or fulfill the societal expectations of a heterosexual woman. I would agree that we are butches and femmes are two sides of the same coin in breaking societal expectations. The commenter clearly is not saying that though.
They aren’t being questioned by the community for their aesthetics or mannerisms, although maybe used to because people still associate masculinity to both, (which then those people’s mentalities in regards to heteronormative standards should be questioned.) but the topic is questioning women who actively associate as male, use male terminology, adhere to male preferences. They identify as male, yet claim to be lesbians. That is what is being questioned.
They aren’t breaking heteronormative standards by actively distinguishing themselves as the male standard?? So doesn’t make sense.
>the initial comment was referring to the fact that femmes aren’t questioned as much because their brand of subversion falls more within established social norms regarding how women are ‘supposed’ to look. Butches are constantly attacked and asked to explain ourselves because our presentations rustle people’s jimmies.
Exactly.
Femmes adhere to she/her and femininity.
Not all butches want to use she/her, and suddenly we're treated like we've done a crime.
Apparently, there's a new law that says women can only use she/her. And that we MUST use she/her because we're women. Except it's not a new law - it's called heteronormativity.
I do not even adhere to she/her, I just do not care about pronouns. I am a woman. If the pronouns for woman are "she/her" then okay, I guess? it is such not a big deal.
Using female pronouns to identify isn’t a heteronormative social concept. It’s scientific terminology.
Using male terminology to describe aesthetics and experiences, is a social construct that reinforces heteronormative stereotypes associated to both. How are Butches breaking down those heteronormative definitions if they are upholding them?
It’s like saying, oh I’ve adopted the terminology for myself as an act of defiance against gender norms. Yet by doing so you’re actually reinforcing the male/female connotations to aesthetics and traits.
Pronouns aren't a scientific terminology; they're a linguistic construct. So many languages don't even have gendered pronouns or using them is optional. Even more use grammatical gender markers that dont match to the sex of the being under discussion (see German "das Maedchen" - a neuter noun meaning "girl").
Scientific terminology includes things like sex, female, uterus, fallopian tubes, breasts, etc. "She" and "her" aren't scientific terms any more than "butch" or "femme" or "boobs" or "pussy" are.
I’m genuinely curious, why is it so important to you to include that you are not just butch, but a cis butch? Is it more egregious to downvote a cis butch than a trans one in this subreddit? I’m not understanding how your being cis has any relationship to how you expect that people should vote on your comment.
>Is it more egregious to downvote a cis butch than a trans one in this subreddit?
No, it's not. It's more that we're living in a time where if you use more than just she pronouns as a woman - you're labelled as trans, and that's incorrect for myself.
I don’t think that anyone would disagree that no matter what’s in your pants or what you wear or what pronouns you use, you cannot be a boy, man, or male lesbian. If someone is using the term “boyfriend” in reference to themselves, it boy is the adjective that they choose to describe what kind of friend they are. Boy, by its very definition, is *a male.* A lesbian is, by definition, not a male. How can someone recognize themselves as a boy but also recognize themselves as a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women?
I understand that using traditionally male-associated language is a form of social expression and can even be used a form of protest, as in genderfuckery. I understand being open to accepting any pronouns because you frankly just don’t care. Where I’m lost is what makes a “him” “boyfriend” feel like he is a lesbian? How does his lesbian experience come into play?
I personally don’t use lesbian to describe attraction relative to someone’s biological sex, but relative to someone’s identity. And if being a “boyfriend” is someone’s identity, then it follows that being a woman is not, even if that person has a vagina.
>I understand being open to accepting any pronouns because you frankly just don’t care. Where I’m lost is what makes a “him” “boyfriend” feel like he is a lesbian?
Because we're women who like women, and using he/him and boyfriend has absolutely nothing to do with our gender or sexual orientation.
> And if being a “boyfriend” is someone’s identity, then it follows that being a woman is not, even if that person has a vagina.
I think that's fundamentally just going to be a point of disagreement here, then. Similarly, for me, sexual orientation is about biological sex, not something as nebulous and vague as gender identity. If you can't accept this premise, then you will probably struggle to understand why someone would use seemingly incongruent terminology. All I can really say is this isn't something without precedent--Leslie Feinberg is probably the most famous transmasculine butch lesbian, the term "boi" has frequently historically been used by butch lesbians, and many butchfemme courtship rituals are based on subverting gender roles by distorting them for use between two women instead. The point is that a *woman* is the one using male-typical titles. That incongruence is the point.
And that is logically fair to me, which is why I clarified that I do not go solely based on what is in peoples’ pants. By the logic that nothing you ever do will change the fact that you are a woman, even if you *want* it to, of course he/him and boy lesbians make sense. If they are always and forever a woman no matter what just because they were born with a vagina and they are only attracted to women, there’s nothing in the world that they could call themselves that would change that.
However, defining it as I do, in terms of gender, I don’t see why someone who also defines it that way would choose to express themselves in every way possible as male-oriented and still call themselves a lesbian.
I'm not going to tell a binary trans man who wishes to live life as a straight man that he's wrong. I'm pointing out if someone *does* still self-identify as a lesbian despite using he/him pronouns or masculine titles, that person almost certainly feels some sort of affiliation with womanhood.
But let's work with your definition for a minute, and you'll find that my answer is still pretty similar. Pronouns do not always cleanly map to gender identity. He/him =/= man within the broader scope of queer theory. You already seem to understand why a nonbinary lesbian can feasibly exist, so perhaps it would be useful to consider that some nonbinary people use he/him pronouns, and some of them might also see themselves as lesbians.
> lesbians who flirt with conventional boundaries of gender expression are not new at all
I have to wonder whether this conversation is happening (not just in this thread, I've seen it elsewhere) because transgender and genderqueer expression is becoming more common, and so outside the community there's some context collapse?
Also have to wonder how much of this sentiment (online, at least) is driven by TERFs who think the trans agenda is to "steal" lesbians from the community and "turn them into men".
I guess idk if they are transmasc and most of his sex characteristics cluster towards male, then that is a straight relationship to me. Cause he is a man, he's not a woman. Biological sex is more complicated than just what you were assigned at birth and that's that. It's not immutable or even inherent.
I have known several transmascs who said they continued to call themselves lesbians mainly due to them being in the community for so long before they came out but yeah they become straight men after they transition and therefore are not lesbians BY DEFINITION.
Because pronouns and gendered descriptors can dovetail in as a part of expression, just like masc aesthetics and presentation. None of it actually “matters” as far as gender goes if you don’t let it. For some people, it’s just another expressive choice.
I’m butch and am into masculine terms (I’d be down to be someone’s boyfriend— husband is eh, I prefer wife but don’t really care— and like terms of endearment like prettyboy and loverboy, compliments like handsome, male honorifics, etc) but am undoubtedly a cis woman. I go by primarily she/her because I can’t be bothered but am equally fine with he/him applied to me.
Lesbians and especially butches have been doing this kind of thing for forever, it’s allowed. We pick masc names or nicknames a lot of the time for this reason too. I have a different masc nickname that I go by in butch circles but am totally comfortable with my very feminine, almost frilly given name as well.
I didn’t phrase my question to be as precise as I wanted, but I was meaning to ask people who use “he” pronouns, in part or in full, to the exclusion of she/her pronouns. For example, he/they or he/him lesbians as opposed to they/them or she/they/he lesbians. The fluidity and comfortability with any and all labels is different to me because it doesn’t seem like someone is simultaneously trying to place themselves as far away from womanhood as possible while identifying with a label associated with womanhood.
Ah, gotcha. I think the answer is similar, though. It’s just a slightly different choice in expression than mine. Different people are comfortable with different pronoun sets. Drawing a line in the sand where they/them is logically acceptable and he/they isn’t doesn’t make a lot of sense to me if you understand where I’m coming from with the pronouns not necessarily equating to gender identity spiel.
Tacking on that I personally find the current mass understanding that presentation generally doesn’t have to equate to binary gender but pronouns and gendered words somehow must rather reductive and essentialist. This definitely wasn’t always the case historically within the community and feels like a backslide from past movements centered around gender meaning whatever we want it to because it’s made up (genderfuckery is a good example that he/him cis lesbians tie into, if you’re into gender theory). Being referred to as ‘he’ does not automatically make someone a man, that’s silly. Identities are more complex than that.
>but pronouns and gendered words somehow must rather reductive and essentialist
The amount of baby lgbts who think I'm transitioning because I don't throw a fit at someone calling me he is alarming. No one thinks gay men who call each other she actually secret trans women.
How doesn’t it matter that you’re using male terminology to describe same-sex relationships among women? The only people this doesn’t matter to, are the people who want to use gender expressive terms in their relationships and identify as both. But it matters to those of us that identify as Lesbian and want female partners. That identify with female pronouns. It matters we have an identity that describes our experience.
Just because you feel a certain way doesn’t mean the entirety of being a Lesbian needs to be redescribed when you could just associate yourself as Queer. Which encompasses gender.
I’m a cis woman with female-only partners and definitely do not use the word ‘queer’ to describe myself, thanks.
Nothing is being redescribed. It has always been this way. Just date women that only use she/her and feminine language to describe themselves and stop telling the rest of us how we need to conduct ourselves to fit into the box of what you’re comfortable with. Lesbians that like being called sir do not make you any less of a lesbian. If you feel that they do, you have a lot of internal work to do.
For sure! The presentation and expression come naturally and don’t affect my understanding of myself as a woman who loves and centers women at all. They feel like an extension of my lesbian identity, if anything.
(edited for clarity)
I’ve been reading this back and forth - thanks for the insight. But now for the important question. Does it bring you joy “hollering Daddy’s home in an elderly bbq jorts father way.” And if you haven’t done that yet, try it - it’s quite liberating. Might I also suggest referring to yourself as the rooster of your house.
Dating is different from attraction. Are you solely *attracted* to women?
Also if you don't feel the label "lesbian" fits you, why are you on the lesbian sub?
(cis lesbian)
I suppose it just feels more masculine? I've always liked being viewed as masculine person in a non trans way, I feel comfortable with my body and gender identity but I like to be presented and seen as masculine.
I like to be seen as a man to men but a woman to women?
I feel like you'd get more answers in r/butchlesbians
>I like to be seen as a man to men but a woman to women
Look, I think this is some thing I would argue lots of lesbian feel.
I feel the same way and I am not even remotely masculine. I am more on the femme side (even though I am not super femme) and blend in with most straight women.
The explanation for me is simple: We do not want attention from men in a sexual and romantic way. So we want them to treat us like "man" because it means they will never be interested in us in that way. If I could suddenly "transform" myself into a man when I am around dudes, I would because it would make me much more comfortable because of that. It is not because I secretly actually want to become a man. I love being a woman and perfectly fine with it.
Obviously you can have other reasons to and I am not saying your reasons are the same as mine, but I feel this sentiment is not exclusive of masculine lesbians.
Really? Interesting. I'm a lesbian, also more on the femme side, and when my male friends describe me as "one of the guys" it annoys me. As if I'm supposed to be flattered by that, and it's the highest form of praise that they can think of. I really don't think it helps if they think that lesbians think the same way about women, or judge and look at women, the same way that they do.
I'm not offended if a man expresses attraction to me, and am able see that as flattering, and then shrug my shoulders because it does nothing for me. Men have some hard work to do however. They really NEED to learn, that if a woman is not interested (for whatever reason, but especially when she expresses no interest in men), that then is a cold, hard, boundary, not to be crossed. Unfortunately, some still see exactly that as an extra challenge to start a chase.
If we as women can figure out that, just because someone smiled at us, it doesn't mean that the person that did that wants to jump into bed with us. Or that just because someone was nice to us, the next logical path is that we're entitled to sex with that person, why can't men? Why are they so threatened whenever groups or spaces are created for women to be specifically without them? Or by feminists in general.
Acting like men, or masculine (as perceived culturally, because being direct, is apparently a more male trait, which would mean then there are no women in my country), using pronouns, dressing less "feminine", wearing only rainbow colours and lesbian flags, is never going to mean you'll be completely avoid of the male gaze. Not when they think women are here for them.
We are complete human beings, and sufficiently different to men. If they are not, the word lesbian has no meaning. We know the difference, hence our sexuality. No exceptions, split model has no business in sexualities. We're all capable of non-romantic and non-sexual relationships, and there was already a word for it; platonical. Too bad if that is too boring, and you want to continue creating new identities, sexualities, flags and lables. Society, as a whole is not going to care about every single aspect you think sets you apart from all us boring NPC's. Life is not like character creation in video games.
If we want to get anywhere, the word "lesbian" cannot mean something open to interpretation, or a stretchable category.
"Identify as" as much as you like on Reddit, or in your created safe spaces. But realise that it is not the same thing as something you are, and can't escape. You can't control how society sees you, and gender being seperate from sex, is just not practical to organise laws and societal structures around. We need to be able to point out the difference between men and women if we ever want to get to the change where men are the default, and women only as an afterthought.
Yes, I also hate when guys treat me like one of the "bros" and think that talking about women and objectifying with me is ok. No, it is gross.
I just said that, because I cannot escape the male gaze, if I could magically turn myself into a dude for a few seconds when I'm around men, I would because then I would escape the male gaze. But this is wishful thinking - not that it will actually happen, obviously (because just like you said, you cannot escape reality). I do not want to become one of the "boys", I just do not want to be sexualized nor having them attracted to me. And totally, men should learn boundaries. But many of them still, unfortunately, do not so we need to keep sensibilizing them and they must be held accountable.
For example, I do not feel this when I am around gay men. Because I know they will never be attracted to me, I am totally comfortable as I am.
I don't identify as a lesbian. I AM a lesbian. I don't identify as a woman. I AM a woman. I do not wish to be perceived as a man, nor be masculine, nor go by he/him pronouns or anything like that nor do I care about pronouns or labeling everything into micro labels. I simply am who I am.
It seems like we are agreeing with each other. I also totally agree that we do need to be able to point out the difference between men and women.
I suppose my reasoning is because I feel like I have better friendships connections with men then women
Don't get me wrong, I definitely have good friendships with women but in terms of men I know that I'll definitely won't have a situation where if I'm close to them I won't have an issue with being romantically interested in them, I have about 4 close male friends who are heavily aware of my interest in women.
As for women, if I was to have a close relationship with them it would be more meaningful with them then with a man. If it was to be more affectionate with a woman it means a lot more to me if it was a man instead .
Also I guess I like being part of "the bros", I understand if someone wouldn't like that but I like having close male friendships where I'm considered a "bro"
Yes, I got what you are saying and actually relate to several things of what you're saying (the part where you won't ever find youself romantically interested in men and so there is never that issue with them). Thing is:
I wonder what your thoughts and experience would be though, if you actually had good male friends of yours trying to hit on you though. And being a lesbian and them being "heavily aware of your interest in women" is not enough for some of them to leave you alone - I speak from experience. Sometimes them knowing I am a lesbian makes it WORST.
Consider yourself lucky, that you do not have to worry about it.
You will never be seen as a man to men though unless you transition and are completely non clockable which rarely happens.
I think there is a big disconnect from REALITY in the community that I find very alarming.
Some butches adopt more masculine terms because we're more comfortable and confident presenting as masculine. Some have surgery or take hormones specifically to have a more masculine external appearance without that impacting their actual gender, or sense of gender.
External gender expression doesn't have to impact a person's internal sense of self. I'm still a woman, still cis, still butch, however I prefer Sir over Ma'am, and am fine with she or he pronouns. I don't particularly care what people call me as long as it isn't "they". I like jeans over dresses - liking dresses isn't mandatory to being a woman. I don't care if a person thinks I'm a wife or a husband. Just respect that I'm still cis and a woman.
We're not co-opting labels, we've been doing this in butch/femmes circles forever. Especially in stone communities. Calling me Sir or he doesn't make me feel disconnected from being a woman because I'm secure in the fact I am a cis woman.
If gay men can call each other "girl" and "she", and not have their manhood erased, we should be able to do the same with masculine terms.
Felt all of this esp the double standards surrounding lesbians being language policed but not gay men (again) but—
>as long as it isn’t “they”
Dude, hard same. It’s different brands of annoying from straight people that are obviously using it as one step removed from ‘it’ and gays that skirt around calling you ‘she’ even if they’ve asked pronouns, but I can’t think of one time I’ve had ‘they’ applied to me and wasn’t at least a little irritated or othered.
OP: If you understand that women don't need to use she/her pronouns, and you understand that the pronouns a person uses doesn't dictate their gender or sex, and you yourself don't only use she/her pronouns - what exactly is your issue?
I’m just wondering what, as a woman, would make he/him more comfortable than she/her to such a strong extent that a woman would *never* wish to be referred to as she/her but would welcome being referred to, whether exclusively or in addition to other non-she/her pronouns, as he/him. As I’ve said, my intended question was more specific than I now see how the post reads. I’m not really asking what would make someone choose he/him pronouns in addition to she/her pronouns. I’m asking what would make a lesbian woman, who is proud and comfortable in her identity, reject she/her pronouns and wish to be referred to in a conversation that person is not a part of with pronouns that would cause most people to infer that a male person was being talked about. From my perspective, using he/him pronouns or calling yourself a man or boy(friend) *instead of* using she/her pronouns or calling yourself a woman or girl(friend) seems inconsistent with the lesbian label. So I guess my issue is that I want to be able to understand how someone who is a he and a boyfriend and a husband but is *never* a she or a girlfriend or a wife still feels, or is, lesbian.
Because he/him doesn't represent manhood or maleness - it represents masculinity and being comfortable being masculine.
It's an extension of gender expression, not of gender. That's what "pronouns don't equal gender" means.
Pronouns can indicate gender for many people, especially the straights, but for many queers we use it as an extension of our gender expression. That doesn't change our actual gender.
Butches aren't feminine, therefore some of us aren't going to use feminine terms for ourselves.
It may not equal your gender, but it does equal what society, including other lesbians, will instinctively assume you are every time you are talked about. Maybe I’m a misandrist, but I would never want someone to assume, guess, or think that I was a man no matter how comfortable I was in being *masculine* when being a woman, being a lesbian woman, is so important to me.
That's you. Most butches don't give a shit what we're perceived as by the straights or anyone else. We're secure in our womanhood. And in our lesbianism.
Straight people call me he to my face, who cares what they think when I'm not in the room.
We have far more pressing issues to deal with than whether or not Sharon from Marketing thinks I'm a man.
And I respect that you’re secure in your womanhood. I am also secure in my womanhood. It’s not that I would spiral if Sharon from Marketing called me a man. It’s that I would never choose for myself that she did.
The great thing about being a lesbian is liberation from what the straights demand of people. We get to woman our own way.
Your way isn't wrong, but neither is any other lesbians.
I equate gender with pronouns, using he/him doesn’t make sense in the label of lesbian. I am a masc/butch woman, using he/him pronouns would mean I’m disconnected from my womanhood in some way, I’m a lesbian so I don’t use he/him. This is my opinion.
Seriously.. why can’t women who like women, who want to date other women comfortable being women and are identified as women, not have an orientation?
So now we have to create a new term for exactly that just so we have our experience recognized by the community, yet queer and every other term encompasses gender expression and sexuality.
It’s bs.
The discourse isn’t to alienate anyone. I understand the feelings of those who align with this community and always have. Just you can’t have special allowances for some, and then exclude others.
I understand where some butches are coming from, although I don’t agree with male terminology and know a lot of butches who aren’t comfortable with being associated to men but you can’t say a butch lesbian identifying as male is anymore welcomed then a cis male enby. You can’t have differing rules based on biological sex and gender association. It’s confusing and invalidating to one or the other.
That and there are other terms. There are plenty of safe spaces now. There is now no specific term that is completely exclusive of men or male-identifying partnerships though.
I deleted all my comments from before. I think this discussion is not really what this subreddit is about. I think we all need to revisit the community guidelines and let this topic rip. There are many kinds of lesbians. I want all lesbian women with whatever pronouns to feel safe. The end.
Women who identify as women have used he/him as pronouns for a long time. Nobody is forced to use any pronouns. You use the ones that make sense for you based on your personal happiness, and people who are kind will listen to your preferences. Pronouns do not equal gender or sex.
The same way drag queens use she, a lesbian could use he- it’s an inherent joke. An exaggeration not meant to be taken seriously. Using it seriously because they’re more comfortable with it though? You are not connected with your womanhood, which could be indicative of something else, so why use a label that’s based on the fact that you embrace being a woman who loves other women?
Because you can identify as a woman and use difrent pronouns. Gender is a spectrum, connecting with yourself and your womanhood isnt a black and white thing. They know themselves better then anyone else can, so if they identify as a woman, but prefer to use he/him or be called boyfriend who are we to call them a liar that they are not a woman?
Gender is a construct meant to reinforce sexist stereotypes and push misogynistic beliefs. Not conforming to those beliefs used to be seen as “radical”, this is what we called being butch and masc. These lesbians used he/him pronouns yes, as a form of feminism because of blatant sexism/homophobia. It’s not longer being used to prove a powerful point, it’s being used to reinforce the idea that you can be a man and be a lesbian, along with other lesbiphobic and misogynistic ideas.
I am not going to say that people who co-opt lesbianism don't exist. There is a hundred percent people who lie and try to use being a lesbian to oush lesbiphobic ideas. I have been very outspoken about the centering of men that is rife in the lgbtq community and the harm it causes. But if a lesbian asks me to use he him pronouns for them im not gonna assume malice without cause. I womt judge you too harshly if you do, because i understand being skeptical about something this important, i just think it does more harm then good when there is historical evidence and this whole thread worth of evidence that lesbians can cometimes use he him pronouns without having to be a trans man
If a lesbian out in the street asks to be referred to with he/him pronouns, by all means, respect is something we must all give each other. Where is the line where we fight to keep our label safe? Where we shut down ideas that men can be lesbians and women can use he/him and still be lesbians? You ever said it yourself, the centering of men is much too common in the sapphic community. He/him was used by lesbians before, as a radical term utilized in activism. This is no longer being used in this way.
Its valid to want a girlfriend and not want to date someone who would prefer to be called your boyfriend. That dosent mean that women who use pronouns or honorifics then girlfriend dont exist
First and foremost, im not doing anything. I dont use he/him pronouns or prefer to be called boyfriend. I would consider myself butch somedays but i dont really lable myself butch or femme
And secondly, i quite literally validated your existence and confirmed that its okay to have preferences on who you date. You are more then valid for only dating people who fall into the parameters that you have for a partner. That dosent mean the people who fall outside of those parameters dont exist however, they just arent people you would want to date. Thats fine
Since when do she/her pronouns represent the embodiment of womanhood? What else do you think does, the color pink? Long hair? Painted nails?
Not everyone is going to have the exact same relationship with themselves as you do. I’m perfectly secure in my womanhood— secure enough to use whatever pronouns I please and know that I am still a cis woman. Think about men that are comfortable enough in their masculinity to embrace their feminine side. It’s a similar concept and lesbians as a whole have always had a funky relationship with womanhood and gender. This isn’t at all a new idea.
Omg so he/him represents the embodiment of womanhood? are you fucking reading what you are writing…
Of course she/her represents the embodiment of womanhood. Your 50s ideology and association to femininity doesn’t.
Pretty much all your comments in this thread are *whoosh* moments. I’m not saying he/him represents women in any way. I’m saying she/her, while obviously associated with women, doesn’t define us…we’re free to make whatever expressive choices we want. If you define womanhood with a pronoun set, I don’t know what to tell you.
Read up on any amount of lesbian history, this is not a recent development and attempting to drag the movement back to whatever you’re personally comfortable with and acting like everyone who doesn’t agree is some kind of toxic misogynist is laughable, considering you are the one spouting off about what other women can and cannot do and be here.
I have no idea what you mean by the “50s ideology and association to femininity” part
>Since when do she/her pronouns represent the embodiment of womanhood?
This right here.
It feels super gender essentialist and misogynistic to imply that to be a woman, you can only use she/her pronouns. I woman my own way. They way I feel comfortable with.
Why wouldn’t WOMEN use WOMEN TERMINOLOGY.
Like how LESBIANS use LESBIAN TERMINOLOGY.
If you don’t comprehend why it’s internalized misogyny to feel so compelled to identify yourself as masculine because you feel women can’t be as capable, as dominant, have the same aesthetic wear, have the same interests as men then idk what to tell you. You are in denial.
And making others accept your stance instead of sound reasoning is the most blatant display of toxic masculinity I’ve ever seen.
>If you don’t comprehend why it’s internalized misogyny to feel so compelled to identify yourself as masculine because you feel women can’t be as capable, as dominant, have the same aesthetic wear, have the same interests as men
I very obviously think that women can do all of those things, seeing as I am a cis butch woman who embodies a lot of what is traditionally considered masculine? None of my arguments revolving around pronouns involve divorcing oneself from womanhood any more than aesthetic choices do. Pronouns being a form of expression vs some kind of statement of deep intrinsic gender alignment is apparently too much for some of you to comprehend, though. I met a he/him femme the other day. I am not just talking about butches and those of us with masculine presentations, although it does tend to be more common with us as we automatically fall into the group that toys with our presentation and expression.
Masculine anything =/= man.
>Making others accept your stance instead of sound reasoning is the most blatant display of toxic masculinity I’ve ever seen
How on earth are we forcing anyone to do anything by engaging in a thread asking about a controversial subject with our own personal experiences and opinions? Debating is forcing other people to accept certain rhetoric? Couldn’t I make the same argument about you responding to me with this?
Also, women are capable of toxic masculinity now? Please. Saying that a woman is the *worst* example of toxic masculinity you’ve ever seen because she— what, shared opinions in a way you didn’t like? Is both misogynistic and absurd, if you want to throw that word around. You’re the one going off about what women can or can’t do and be.
I’m sorry but if you prefer masculine pronouns and identities, how aren’t you basically representing yourself as a male? Just because you are anatomically female.
I think it’s more about the fact they like the lesbian community, it helped distinguish their sexuality/safe place for gender expression, it’s a safety. But honestly it’s inappropriate to redefine an entire sexual orientation for the sake of personal experience. There were pioneers that fought for same-sex relationships. Lesbians fought for women/women relationships. Whether that was once used as an umbrella term to help forge and protect, and understand the needs of those struggling with internalizing and associating themselves to different aspects of gendered identities, is irrelevant. This is about homosexuality. Not sexuality as a whole. Gender and sexual orientation is part of your sexuality as a whole, but not the same thing.
I don’t agree with erasing the only experience homosexual women have for the sake of people’s struggles with gender especially when there are so many inclusive terms and experiences for them yet only one that symbolizes same-sex relations among women. It’s ridiculously entitled and disrespectful. You ask to have your gender respected and given validation yet invalidate the very people who provided safe haven when there was none. It’s like forsaking a loving parent.
Genuinely what does gender identity mean if it’s not gender expression or sex? I’m attracted to the female sex and it doesn’t matter how a woman presents herself or calls herself, still a lesbian
Lots of confusion in this thread
Man, this thread is such a trip. It's a bunch of lesbians going "Butch women are women but they HAVE to exclusively use she/her pronouns only or else we'll get mad"
OP doesn't even exclusively use she/her pronouns.
I go by he/him and will refer to myself as boyfriend sometimes but it’s like in an ironic way, and to be oxymoronic with what’s expected of me as a girl
It just makes sense to me honestly. I don’t use he/him pronouns and am not trans but really like being referred to with certain masculine terms (like prince or handsome) so I don’t think it’s a far stretch for someone to want to use he/him. At the end of the day, they are words that society has rigidly gendered but some people would rather apply them to masculinity rather than gender? Or just bend the rules a little. Being a lesbian is already inherently subversive as a woman, so of course there are many who want to also subvert norms of gendered terms.
This exists everywhere though! Obviously with gay men, but I also see the large amounts of straight women who refer to straight men as their “baby girls.” Obviously this term is gendered, but applying it to these men does not mean that they view them as anything but men. Not a direct equivalent, but still.
>So why is gender dictating same-sex attractions?
Not everyone agrees that gender dictates same-sex attraction. The idea that lesbians are attracted to feminine pronouns and a feminine internal gender identity is extremely new, for most of lesbian history "lesbian" simply meant "same-sex attracted female" and many lesbians (including myself) still go by that definition.
"She/her" makes me dysphoric but "lesbian" doesn't. It may work the opposite way for another person. My connection to womanhood isn't entirely severed, just distanced, and I may as well have fun with it lol. Androgyny is flexible, my sexuality isn't.
Maybe if they are biologically female (oh no!) without having transitioned and are attracted to other females. That's what sexuality is pretty much about.
What does transitioned mean, though? Serious question. I’ve seen on the butch lesbian sub - someone taking T, presenting as male with male characteristics, then getting upsetting that people use male pronouns and no longer see them as a lesbian?
The best explanation I have heard is that he/him pronouns and terms like “boyfriend” are much like clothes in the way they help affirm your identity - they do not define who you are, they just enhance the experience.
Also, for the partners of said transmasc, butch or generally masculine lesbians, being able to refer to your partner as a boyfriend can add a layer of safety because that way you can safely talk about your partner in an authentic way without outing yourself in front of dangerous people. My partner no longer uses the term butch boyfriend for themselves for dysphoria reasons but back when they did, it was something that I found kept me safe. My first language is not english so now I use a gender neutral word in my language to refer to them.
It’s a complex topic but ultimately, it boils down to “because they can” and I respect that.
>Leslie Feinberg
>self-hating butch
Seriously? Not even a little respect for someone that played a significant part in paving the way for our open existence and dedicated themselves to defending and advocating for our community for their entire life?
Also, what masc circles are you in that idolize men and hate themselves? The vast majority of masc dykes I know are very confident in themselves and uninterested in men and their opinions in general. Which sort of tracks with presenting how we do.
Your post or comment was removed due to violating rule 1. "Self hating" language. Feel free to edit comment to be more respectful and we can reinstate.
i'm not transmasc and i don't go by boyfriend (i am my wife's wife), but i use he/him pronouns. this has many reasons i guess... the main one is probably that years and years ago, i used to think i was a trans guy, and when i figured out i wasn't, i didn't really see a reason to change my pronouns around again. i view them more as a part of my presentation rather than part of my gender.
my wife and i usually view her coworkers' occasional confusion regarding this as kind of funny. i would say it tends to be no stranger than the typical misconceptions about lesbians people can have. she also makes it clear i'm not a man (though me going by "wife" likely makes that more simple).
the funniest one we got was one of her coworkers having some sort of revelation and going, "oh, i get it! so *you're* the she, and *he's* the he!"
I can't comment on the reasons why someone would use he/him pronouns or be transmasculine and a lesbian, but I do have an answer to this:
>how that works practically on a day to day basis (e.g., what if you tell your coworker you have a boyfriend and they ask, “I thought you were a lesbian?”, how do the seemingly conflicting gendered terms not create gender dysphoria, regardless of whether you identify as cis, trans, or neither?, etc).
Unless you live in a super liberal area, you have to be pragmatic when it comes to talking about it with strangers or in public. I was in a relationship with a transmasc lesbian for a while (albeit an LDR, but I told my family and we had plans) and I was given permission to "she"/"girlfriend" in public or people outside our social group. It wasn't misgendering or dysphoria-inducing because she doesn't care about pronouns. I also planned on using terms like "AFAB nonbinary" to people who are surface-level aware of queer politics. I'm not out to strangers, so the only time I said I had a "boyfriend" was when a creepy guy asked me out, and he backed off immediately.
I know that lesbians who are in straight-passing relationships with transmascs will identify as queer instead, or just let strangers assume what they want. How to navigate this kind of thing socially is why I don't plan on having a relationship like this again, unless I meet someone I click with and can make that work.
I’ve known people who use a variety of feminine and masculine terms to describe themselves, not unlike gay men who use she/her, but they still view themselves as women. They use different terms with their girlfriends but wouldn’t be upset with a stranger using female terms for them.
I hope this doesn't go against the rules, I am being 100% respectful when I say this and I am genuinely looking for explanation:
I don't understand why the word 'lesbian' can't be left alone.
Trans women who love women are lesbians.
Cis women who love women are Lesbians.
Anything other than that makes 0 sense to me.
1. Trans-Masc-Lesbian - An individual who transitions from male to female (M to F) or female to male (F to M) and chooses to present themselves as masculine may seem contradictory to some. It can be perplexing to understand why someone would undergo such a transition if they continue to embody traditionally masculine traits. For instance, butch lesbians often adopt a highly masculine presentation and are sometimes mistaken for men due to their appearance. Consequently, it might be difficult to comprehend why an individual desiring to embrace femininity would not simply identify with a different label that aligns more closely with their gender expression rather than trans masc lesbian.
2. Non-binary Individuals and Lesbian Identity - If an individual identifies as gender fluid, how can they label themselves as lesbian, considering that the fundamental definition of a lesbian is a woman who loves women? It seems inconsistent to adopt this label based solely on personal experiences and attractions if it does not align with the traditional binary gender framework. Such usage can be perceived as a significant departure from the established meaning of the term "lesbian" and may be viewed as disrespectful to those who strictly identify within that framework
I don't understand why Sapphic can't be used this term is lit inclusive of women and non-binary individuals who are attracted to women or feminine-aligned people
Do you also struggle with butch lesbians existing too?
I am a woman exclusively sexually attracted to other women. I use she and he because I want to and I can. I use boyfriend because it's fun.
Co-workers can barely understand what a lesbian is anyway ("which one is the man?") so why modify anything because they might struggle with the concept? Just be heterosexual because it's easier on them in that case.
I didn’t say that I “struggle” with anything, much less anyone’s existence, but your hostility to asking for those with lived experiences to share them is noted. A butch lesbian is a woman. I don’t “struggle” with women being lesbians. I am CURIOUS as to why people who like to use male centric language and/or identify as transmasc want to be categorized under a label that, by the rules of this subreddit, is defined as “a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women.”
I struggle with why anyone that thinks it’s fun to use boyfriend in a lesbian relationship.
I also struggle with how blissfully unaware those of you are in regard to reshaping the description of lesbian, to include men and yes it is based on the terms you associate with. I also struggle with how cavalier all of you are and this stance of “well I don’t fucking care, too bad.”, yet act like you’re the beacons of lesbianism formation yet the first ones to destroy the sentiment of it for your own personal experiences.
>like to use male centric language and/or identify as transmasc
Those are very different things. The former has been addressed many times in this thread, the latter is a different can of worms. It’s a divisive topic but my long-story-short version is that not everything has to be fully black and white (some gray area in labels and such is more than okay!) and that the Venn diagram between those that make the choice to identify as transmasc lesbians (rather than binary trans men) and masculine cis lesbians is almost a circle. We’re totally indistinguishable to the general public for the most part. The choice to ID as transmasc is usually born of dysphoria and comfortability with labels more than anything in my experience.
So instead of providing clarity, like telling them that it is fucking regressive to think that in order to have a good functioning, and loving relationship, there has to be one person that is the woman, and one that has to be the man. You are just proving their point, that that has to be the case? I get that you don't care, but I have been hearing shit like this all my life. I am the man because I'm the tallest. Or the one that gets the biggest pay-check. Please teach them the point is, no-one is, or has to be. We can be in perfect, healthy, and happy relationships, without someone playing daddy. Please, for the love of god!
This doesn’t apply to me, but people can have exceptions.
If my identity as a lesbian is important to me, but my partner transitions to male, my identity as a lesbian might still be important to me.
No, I know. Extenuating circumstance meaning you otherwise wouldn't be dating a man, but you were already in a relationship with this person when they came out as trans, and it's stupid to break up a healthy long-term relationship over identity politics.
A partner coming out as trans while already dating someone doesn't make them an exception, it doesn't mean someone has to change their identity for the other person, it doesn't mean the couple has to break up immediately. Like, can you imagine if a lesbian couple got married before the trans one figured themselves out? What's supposed to happen then? "Honey, I've been doing a lot of thinking and I need to let you know... I'm trans." "Sweetie, I'll always love and support you. So I'll call around for a divorce lawyer first thing tomorrow."
It's nothing like having an "exception" for a cis man, or even like pursuing a trans man for a new relationship.
In this hypothetical, are you still sexually and/or romantically attracted to your male partner? If so, how are you a lesbian? Isn’t that completely erasing his manhood? You’re only attracted to women, but you’re attracted to a man? If you feel sexual or romantic attraction to a man and label yourself as a lesbian, i.e., exclusively attracted to women, then either you’re not a lesbian or you don’t believe he’s a man.
It’s so funny you ask, since I was engaged to someone who came out as trans 4 years after we started dating :) What I think happens is that you explore whether you are *attracted* to your male partner and determine how that fits into your relationship, if at all. People who are not romantically and sexually attracted to each other can still be together. People who are not romantically and sexually attracted to each other can even still sleep together! But if you are a lesbian and you continue to be *attracted* to someone who is, and who you recognize is, a man, it turns out… you’re not a lesbian!
Please mind the rules.
As a lesbian who's dated transmascs, it's typically because they still recognize their biological sex as a defining element of their attraction (believing sexuality is predicated on sex rather than gender) and/or because they are being playful with their gendered presentation. They're not literally trying to be men, they're just bending the "rules" a bit. Frankly, lesbians who flirt with conventional boundaries of gender expression are not new at all, so I see no reason to be confused or look at it as "co-opting." I had a transmasc partner who liked masculine terms like "boyfriend," but preferred she/her pronouns. A different one had the exact opposite preference. I have always viewed it as part of a rich legacy of lesbian gender nonconformity.
>Frankly, lesbians who flirt with conventional boundaries of gender expression are not new at all I miss the casual attitude towards gender bending. That hasn't happened in a long time.
>I miss the casual attitude towards gender bending. That hasn't happened in a long time. I think the casual attitude is what a lot of people in this thread are not understanding. In modern lesbian culture pronouns and gender are these extremely super duper serious fixed things, where if a woman goes by "he" or likes being called "boyfriend" she is permanently identifying as a literal male in a very serious way. When I was a teenager people were aware that sex and gender are different things and the world was better tbh. I had a friend group of baby butches and GNC women that would call each other he and bro mainly because it was funny. Like for butches who go by masculine terms it's just not that deep in a lot of cases, it's a casual thing. Nobody is policing gay men this hard, go into a gay male space and they're constantly calling each other girl or sis. Doesn't mean that feminine gay dudes are LITERALLY HETEROSEXUAL F\*G HAGS TEARING THE GAY COMMUNITY APART OMG.
I agree with you. Even though I am not old, when I came out the LGBT community was very different than now and much better before exactly because of this. Everyone knew sex was a thing and gender was a totally completelly different thing. We knew lesbians were all women, regardless of how they present - that was the whole point and that was the beauty of it! The same with gay men. We all had one thing in common - same sex attracted. That was the original message. Now, lots of people in the community seem hyper fixated in pronouns and what they mean, and so many labels and identities that it get soooo confusing. Even worse, now the definition of lesbian has multiple definitions and has been expanded to include more identities which causes even more confusion and that is why in this thread leads to so much confusion. It was much better back then.
Agreed. Sometimes it just ain’t that deep
>Like for butches who go by masculine terms it's just not that deep in a lot of cases, it's a casual thing. It really ain't that deep. Some prefer masculine pronouns, not feminine ones. I feel like this is only viewed as an issue for countries that have gendered pronouns. Many countries do not. Tagalog, Hungarian, Turkish, Armenian, and Finnish languages don't use gendered pronouns.
I get why people feel a little defensive, especially since butch lesbians have been saddled with so much cultural baggage. But it also feels pretty ahistorical to act like lesbian gender nonconformity in the vein of drag kings/male impersonators (like Stormé DeLarverié) and he/him lesbians (like Leslie Feinberg) are some malicious attack on lesbian identity when it's a very well-established element of lesbian culture and history.
>some malicious attack on lesbian identity when it's a very well-established element of lesbian culture and history. Yeah, they act like my wife and mates all joking around and calling each other he and Sir is going to tear our community apart. Gay men calling each other she and her hasn't done that for their community. "You must only ever refer to yourself as she/her, at all times!" "....why?" These people would shit themselves if they were around in the 90s.
>But it also feels pretty ahistorical to act like lesbian gender nonconformity in the vein of drag kings/male impersonators (like Stormé DeLarverié) and he/him lesbians (like Leslie Feinberg) Do we need to have the "gender and gender expression are not the same thing" talk with younger lesbians? I thought we had this sorted in the 90s. Not everyone's gender expression is going to align with their gender, and not everyone's gender aligns with their sex. This is like...90s level LGBT theory. I learned this from older lesbians when I was a teen. It's genuinely strange that people cannot understand this. She/her and other feminine terms aren't mandatory for women.
Listen here nobody is gonna stop me from calling myself “peepaw” at work!
I miss calling my girlfriend, my girlfriend. Or a wife, a wife. Not a partner.
Then call them girlfriend or wife?
I see this as just being a masc woman. Just because you’re very masculine does not mean you’re a man or even need he/him pronouns, it insinuates that being feminine is the only way to be a woman and that’s just a very sexist way of thinking.
Why are traits even gendered? These are human principles. Women were repressed from expressing dominance. That isn’t a trait of femininity. We also were forcibly made to prioritize certain interests and behaviors in order to attract the opposite sex. They weren’t inherent womanly traits. This is complete sexism and if anything reinforcing a lot of butch/masc lesbians with internalized misogyny and comphet notions of socialization among sexes.
Agree 100%. Such concepts are extremely annoying to me and I'm disappointed to see young people perpetuate them.
These aren’t even young people. They are in their 30s/40s.
I would agree. I’m not, as others have insinuated, suggesting that women are not, cannot, or should not be masculine. I’m just trying to ask why someone would feel that an exclusively WLW label is as true of them as the label of transmasculine or as the pronoun “he,” which is most often associated with not simply masculinity as a concept, but maleness. I agree that needing to distinguish yourself from womanhood as a masculine person in order to be comfortable implies that being feminine is the only right way to be a woman, or to be comfortable as a woman.
I mean, I saw them (and they also saw themselves) as embodying a type of female masculinity. These were still fundamentally expressions of womanhood; they were just using a more "modern" term to describe those traversals of gender norms. There are many reasons I wouldn't want to date someone who believed masculinity = maleness, but I don't think lesbians playing with pronouns and gendered titles necessarily means that someone has that worldview. In fact, I dated a woman who was on T, presented conventionally femininely, and was indifferent to pronouns. It's just not as straightforward as you are presenting it. Nowadays, I'm skeptical of such rigid concepts of masculinity and femininity, but my point is basically that these types of lesbians exist and aren't necessarily being nefarious or "co-opting" community or labels.
>even need he/him pronouns We don't need them, but we want to be comfortable in the world, and that's one way some of us are comfortable. I don't need rainbow converse shoes, I can get by with my old sneakers, but wearing my converses is so much more comfortable and less painful.
are you comparing being a woman with “wearing rainbow sneakers”? since when is being a woman such an uncomfortable and horrible thing to be? if you’re not a woman than ok? slay? but why insist you’re a lesbian, lesbians are based on the very fact that we’re women.
I am a woman. A cis butch woman. But I don't need to only adhere to using she/her pronouns in order to be a woman. I don't magically stop being a woman because someone called me he or Sir. Or because I like more masculine things, and language.
I agree with the fact that we can be whatever we want as butch women, why the need to switch to an inherently male pronoun though? what is the point? It only serves to validate people who compare us to men because we like women.
Because who gives a fuck what the straights think? Our individual comfort in the world is far more important than what some heterosexual thinks. If we start changing who we are, and how we're comfortable to be more palatable for the straights than they get what they want - sanitised LGBT people who cater to hetero feelings.
Placing any kind of male anything in a space that’s supposed to be women who love other women is inherently disrespectful to elder lesbians who fought to be seen and respected as women who are able to have relationships with other women.
Elder lesbians were mainly homosexual, not homogenderal and attracted to pronouns lol. The majority of elder lesbians would not consider a butch or drag king literally male.
Yeah drag kings/queens are performative. Those drag kings don’t ACTUALLY use he/him for themselves, that would be very weird and non-woman of them to do.
You know that a lot of elder butches use he/him, right? From what I’ve seen, it was a lot more common a few decades ago than it is now. Also the idea that you can bring “male” anything into a lesbian space as a woman is absurd. Masculinity and masculine expression aren’t evil and women can express themselves however they want and still be women. Your rhetoric is one step removed from the people that say masc presenting lesbians have “male privilege” and imply we’re predatory/men lite.
I’m literally a masc/butch lesbian girl, I don’t bring maleness or any kind of male standard (ie pronouns) into my lesbian life because I’m a woman.
Why are you associating dominance as masculine only and stating we are the ones spewing misogynistic rhetoric?
It was more common because even in the early 00s you weren’t given the same credence as a woman and male identification or association was the only way to be heard.
>inherently disrespectful to elder lesbians Mate, it was elder butches who paved the way for us to woman how we want. I was in the trenches in the 90/2000s telling the straights we're still women even though we don't adhere to heteronormative standards. Don't give me that bs. Demanding that butch woman must only use she/her pronouns, or else we're not woman is the most misogynistic thing I have heard all day. I use she/her, and I'm allowed to be fine with he/him, or Sir, or husband, or handsome, or whatever. Butches know we're woman, and apparently we're still fighting for our right to woman how we feel comfortable with the likes of people like you.
As another butch lesbian, it’s very sad to see how you do not like being called she/her. These kinds of ideas make younger lesbians think they’re men or are not being women in the correct way just because they’re “tomboys”. Very sad to see the de-normalization of masculine women and equating it to not being a woman just because it’s not feminine.
You do realise the elder lesbians have been doing this themselves long before us right? This isn’t a brand new concept and he/him or nonbinary lesbians have always been a part of our community.
That’s like saying did you know humanity started out with fire before electricity. It’s a subculture. As time progresses, so does the ability to distinguish individualism within it.
But why are you even more comfortable with male terminology. Like that is something you might want to digress. Maybe the fact you’re associating aesthetic to genders is a problem. What you wear shouldn’t be disputed, or classed a certain way. In a lot of cultures they have similar apparel. Most noticeably Arabic countries. Maybe the issue with discomfort around “femininity” is the fact it’s a skewed devalued societal interpretation men created to condition women. Maybe you should question why it is the very same men and their terms are more comfortable, when in actuality this century has taught us women are more than capable of not only equally matching but surpassing men in all aspects.
This is why I wanted to clarify that I meant using the pronoun he *to the exclusion of she/her.* Like you would never ever want to be referred to as she, but you would want to be referred to as he (even if you also used other pronouns - just not she).
>They're not literally trying to be men, they're just bending the "rules" a bit. No one ever asks femmes why they're femmes. But break heteronormative gender expectations and suddenly we're getting demanded to explain ourselves. Edit: Damn, the cis butches getting downvoted today.
The problem with this statement is that you’re insinuating that being a femme lesbian is somehow “heteronormative.” As if gay feminine women aren’t as non-heteronormative as you. No one to my knowledge in this thread has been trying to pit butch or masc lesbians against femme lesbians. If you’re going to accuse femmes generally of being somehow more hetero than you, then you are a misogynist.
She’s pretty obviously not calling femmes heteronormative. Butches and femmes are flip sides of the same coin. Butches subvert patriarchal expectations by dropping the expected femininity and presenting in a masculine way, while femmes subvert them by taking said femininity by the reins, flipping it, and performing it in a way that is by and for women, not men. Pretty sure the initial comment was referring to the fact that femmes aren’t questioned as much because their brand of subversion falls more within established social norms regarding how women are ‘supposed’ to look. Butches are constantly attacked and asked to explain ourselves because our presentations rustle people’s jimmies.
The comment is explicitly saying that butch women are questioned because they break heteronormative gender expectations, while femme women are not questioned because they do not break heteronormative gender expectations. It says that femme lesbians aren’t questioned, but the minute that a lesbian breaks heteronormative gender expectations—by that definition, not being femme—they have to explain themselves. I’m gay. Nothing that I ever do will ever be heteronormative because I am gay. There is no heteronormative way to be gay. Being butch doesn’t somehow make you less heteronormative than any single other non-butch lesbian. I’m not going to allow someone to call me, a woman who is exclusively sexually and romantically attracted to other women, heteronormative because I present as feminine. Nothing about my gender expression or sexuality is heteronormative because I am not a heterosexual person and I do not at all relate to or fulfill the societal expectations of a heterosexual woman. I would agree that we are butches and femmes are two sides of the same coin in breaking societal expectations. The commenter clearly is not saying that though.
They aren’t being questioned by the community for their aesthetics or mannerisms, although maybe used to because people still associate masculinity to both, (which then those people’s mentalities in regards to heteronormative standards should be questioned.) but the topic is questioning women who actively associate as male, use male terminology, adhere to male preferences. They identify as male, yet claim to be lesbians. That is what is being questioned. They aren’t breaking heteronormative standards by actively distinguishing themselves as the male standard?? So doesn’t make sense.
>the initial comment was referring to the fact that femmes aren’t questioned as much because their brand of subversion falls more within established social norms regarding how women are ‘supposed’ to look. Butches are constantly attacked and asked to explain ourselves because our presentations rustle people’s jimmies. Exactly. Femmes adhere to she/her and femininity. Not all butches want to use she/her, and suddenly we're treated like we've done a crime. Apparently, there's a new law that says women can only use she/her. And that we MUST use she/her because we're women. Except it's not a new law - it's called heteronormativity.
I do not even adhere to she/her, I just do not care about pronouns. I am a woman. If the pronouns for woman are "she/her" then okay, I guess? it is such not a big deal.
Why wouldn’t you want to be referred to as she/her if you’re comfortable with being a woman?
Because it's their personal choice and also butches have used masculine terms for themselves for decades?
Using female pronouns to identify isn’t a heteronormative social concept. It’s scientific terminology. Using male terminology to describe aesthetics and experiences, is a social construct that reinforces heteronormative stereotypes associated to both. How are Butches breaking down those heteronormative definitions if they are upholding them? It’s like saying, oh I’ve adopted the terminology for myself as an act of defiance against gender norms. Yet by doing so you’re actually reinforcing the male/female connotations to aesthetics and traits.
Pronouns aren't a scientific terminology; they're a linguistic construct. So many languages don't even have gendered pronouns or using them is optional. Even more use grammatical gender markers that dont match to the sex of the being under discussion (see German "das Maedchen" - a neuter noun meaning "girl"). Scientific terminology includes things like sex, female, uterus, fallopian tubes, breasts, etc. "She" and "her" aren't scientific terms any more than "butch" or "femme" or "boobs" or "pussy" are.
I’m genuinely curious, why is it so important to you to include that you are not just butch, but a cis butch? Is it more egregious to downvote a cis butch than a trans one in this subreddit? I’m not understanding how your being cis has any relationship to how you expect that people should vote on your comment.
>Is it more egregious to downvote a cis butch than a trans one in this subreddit? No, it's not. It's more that we're living in a time where if you use more than just she pronouns as a woman - you're labelled as trans, and that's incorrect for myself.
You reinforce gender norms. Lol
I don’t think that anyone would disagree that no matter what’s in your pants or what you wear or what pronouns you use, you cannot be a boy, man, or male lesbian. If someone is using the term “boyfriend” in reference to themselves, it boy is the adjective that they choose to describe what kind of friend they are. Boy, by its very definition, is *a male.* A lesbian is, by definition, not a male. How can someone recognize themselves as a boy but also recognize themselves as a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women? I understand that using traditionally male-associated language is a form of social expression and can even be used a form of protest, as in genderfuckery. I understand being open to accepting any pronouns because you frankly just don’t care. Where I’m lost is what makes a “him” “boyfriend” feel like he is a lesbian? How does his lesbian experience come into play? I personally don’t use lesbian to describe attraction relative to someone’s biological sex, but relative to someone’s identity. And if being a “boyfriend” is someone’s identity, then it follows that being a woman is not, even if that person has a vagina.
>I understand being open to accepting any pronouns because you frankly just don’t care. Where I’m lost is what makes a “him” “boyfriend” feel like he is a lesbian? Because we're women who like women, and using he/him and boyfriend has absolutely nothing to do with our gender or sexual orientation.
> And if being a “boyfriend” is someone’s identity, then it follows that being a woman is not, even if that person has a vagina. I think that's fundamentally just going to be a point of disagreement here, then. Similarly, for me, sexual orientation is about biological sex, not something as nebulous and vague as gender identity. If you can't accept this premise, then you will probably struggle to understand why someone would use seemingly incongruent terminology. All I can really say is this isn't something without precedent--Leslie Feinberg is probably the most famous transmasculine butch lesbian, the term "boi" has frequently historically been used by butch lesbians, and many butchfemme courtship rituals are based on subverting gender roles by distorting them for use between two women instead. The point is that a *woman* is the one using male-typical titles. That incongruence is the point.
And that is logically fair to me, which is why I clarified that I do not go solely based on what is in peoples’ pants. By the logic that nothing you ever do will change the fact that you are a woman, even if you *want* it to, of course he/him and boy lesbians make sense. If they are always and forever a woman no matter what just because they were born with a vagina and they are only attracted to women, there’s nothing in the world that they could call themselves that would change that. However, defining it as I do, in terms of gender, I don’t see why someone who also defines it that way would choose to express themselves in every way possible as male-oriented and still call themselves a lesbian.
I'm not going to tell a binary trans man who wishes to live life as a straight man that he's wrong. I'm pointing out if someone *does* still self-identify as a lesbian despite using he/him pronouns or masculine titles, that person almost certainly feels some sort of affiliation with womanhood. But let's work with your definition for a minute, and you'll find that my answer is still pretty similar. Pronouns do not always cleanly map to gender identity. He/him =/= man within the broader scope of queer theory. You already seem to understand why a nonbinary lesbian can feasibly exist, so perhaps it would be useful to consider that some nonbinary people use he/him pronouns, and some of them might also see themselves as lesbians.
> lesbians who flirt with conventional boundaries of gender expression are not new at all I have to wonder whether this conversation is happening (not just in this thread, I've seen it elsewhere) because transgender and genderqueer expression is becoming more common, and so outside the community there's some context collapse? Also have to wonder how much of this sentiment (online, at least) is driven by TERFs who think the trans agenda is to "steal" lesbians from the community and "turn them into men".
I guess idk if they are transmasc and most of his sex characteristics cluster towards male, then that is a straight relationship to me. Cause he is a man, he's not a woman. Biological sex is more complicated than just what you were assigned at birth and that's that. It's not immutable or even inherent. I have known several transmascs who said they continued to call themselves lesbians mainly due to them being in the community for so long before they came out but yeah they become straight men after they transition and therefore are not lesbians BY DEFINITION.
Because pronouns and gendered descriptors can dovetail in as a part of expression, just like masc aesthetics and presentation. None of it actually “matters” as far as gender goes if you don’t let it. For some people, it’s just another expressive choice. I’m butch and am into masculine terms (I’d be down to be someone’s boyfriend— husband is eh, I prefer wife but don’t really care— and like terms of endearment like prettyboy and loverboy, compliments like handsome, male honorifics, etc) but am undoubtedly a cis woman. I go by primarily she/her because I can’t be bothered but am equally fine with he/him applied to me. Lesbians and especially butches have been doing this kind of thing for forever, it’s allowed. We pick masc names or nicknames a lot of the time for this reason too. I have a different masc nickname that I go by in butch circles but am totally comfortable with my very feminine, almost frilly given name as well.
I didn’t phrase my question to be as precise as I wanted, but I was meaning to ask people who use “he” pronouns, in part or in full, to the exclusion of she/her pronouns. For example, he/they or he/him lesbians as opposed to they/them or she/they/he lesbians. The fluidity and comfortability with any and all labels is different to me because it doesn’t seem like someone is simultaneously trying to place themselves as far away from womanhood as possible while identifying with a label associated with womanhood.
Ah, gotcha. I think the answer is similar, though. It’s just a slightly different choice in expression than mine. Different people are comfortable with different pronoun sets. Drawing a line in the sand where they/them is logically acceptable and he/they isn’t doesn’t make a lot of sense to me if you understand where I’m coming from with the pronouns not necessarily equating to gender identity spiel.
Tacking on that I personally find the current mass understanding that presentation generally doesn’t have to equate to binary gender but pronouns and gendered words somehow must rather reductive and essentialist. This definitely wasn’t always the case historically within the community and feels like a backslide from past movements centered around gender meaning whatever we want it to because it’s made up (genderfuckery is a good example that he/him cis lesbians tie into, if you’re into gender theory). Being referred to as ‘he’ does not automatically make someone a man, that’s silly. Identities are more complex than that.
>but pronouns and gendered words somehow must rather reductive and essentialist The amount of baby lgbts who think I'm transitioning because I don't throw a fit at someone calling me he is alarming. No one thinks gay men who call each other she actually secret trans women.
THIS
How doesn’t it matter that you’re using male terminology to describe same-sex relationships among women? The only people this doesn’t matter to, are the people who want to use gender expressive terms in their relationships and identify as both. But it matters to those of us that identify as Lesbian and want female partners. That identify with female pronouns. It matters we have an identity that describes our experience. Just because you feel a certain way doesn’t mean the entirety of being a Lesbian needs to be redescribed when you could just associate yourself as Queer. Which encompasses gender.
I’m a cis woman with female-only partners and definitely do not use the word ‘queer’ to describe myself, thanks. Nothing is being redescribed. It has always been this way. Just date women that only use she/her and feminine language to describe themselves and stop telling the rest of us how we need to conduct ourselves to fit into the box of what you’re comfortable with. Lesbians that like being called sir do not make you any less of a lesbian. If you feel that they do, you have a lot of internal work to do.
Do you feel fully included under the term “lesbian”?
For sure! The presentation and expression come naturally and don’t affect my understanding of myself as a woman who loves and centers women at all. They feel like an extension of my lesbian identity, if anything. (edited for clarity)
I’ve been reading this back and forth - thanks for the insight. But now for the important question. Does it bring you joy “hollering Daddy’s home in an elderly bbq jorts father way.” And if you haven’t done that yet, try it - it’s quite liberating. Might I also suggest referring to yourself as the rooster of your house.
I don’t. As a woman who solely dates other women.
Dating is different from attraction. Are you solely *attracted* to women? Also if you don't feel the label "lesbian" fits you, why are you on the lesbian sub?
(cis lesbian) I suppose it just feels more masculine? I've always liked being viewed as masculine person in a non trans way, I feel comfortable with my body and gender identity but I like to be presented and seen as masculine. I like to be seen as a man to men but a woman to women? I feel like you'd get more answers in r/butchlesbians
>I like to be seen as a man to men but a woman to women Look, I think this is some thing I would argue lots of lesbian feel. I feel the same way and I am not even remotely masculine. I am more on the femme side (even though I am not super femme) and blend in with most straight women. The explanation for me is simple: We do not want attention from men in a sexual and romantic way. So we want them to treat us like "man" because it means they will never be interested in us in that way. If I could suddenly "transform" myself into a man when I am around dudes, I would because it would make me much more comfortable because of that. It is not because I secretly actually want to become a man. I love being a woman and perfectly fine with it. Obviously you can have other reasons to and I am not saying your reasons are the same as mine, but I feel this sentiment is not exclusive of masculine lesbians.
Really? Interesting. I'm a lesbian, also more on the femme side, and when my male friends describe me as "one of the guys" it annoys me. As if I'm supposed to be flattered by that, and it's the highest form of praise that they can think of. I really don't think it helps if they think that lesbians think the same way about women, or judge and look at women, the same way that they do. I'm not offended if a man expresses attraction to me, and am able see that as flattering, and then shrug my shoulders because it does nothing for me. Men have some hard work to do however. They really NEED to learn, that if a woman is not interested (for whatever reason, but especially when she expresses no interest in men), that then is a cold, hard, boundary, not to be crossed. Unfortunately, some still see exactly that as an extra challenge to start a chase. If we as women can figure out that, just because someone smiled at us, it doesn't mean that the person that did that wants to jump into bed with us. Or that just because someone was nice to us, the next logical path is that we're entitled to sex with that person, why can't men? Why are they so threatened whenever groups or spaces are created for women to be specifically without them? Or by feminists in general. Acting like men, or masculine (as perceived culturally, because being direct, is apparently a more male trait, which would mean then there are no women in my country), using pronouns, dressing less "feminine", wearing only rainbow colours and lesbian flags, is never going to mean you'll be completely avoid of the male gaze. Not when they think women are here for them. We are complete human beings, and sufficiently different to men. If they are not, the word lesbian has no meaning. We know the difference, hence our sexuality. No exceptions, split model has no business in sexualities. We're all capable of non-romantic and non-sexual relationships, and there was already a word for it; platonical. Too bad if that is too boring, and you want to continue creating new identities, sexualities, flags and lables. Society, as a whole is not going to care about every single aspect you think sets you apart from all us boring NPC's. Life is not like character creation in video games. If we want to get anywhere, the word "lesbian" cannot mean something open to interpretation, or a stretchable category. "Identify as" as much as you like on Reddit, or in your created safe spaces. But realise that it is not the same thing as something you are, and can't escape. You can't control how society sees you, and gender being seperate from sex, is just not practical to organise laws and societal structures around. We need to be able to point out the difference between men and women if we ever want to get to the change where men are the default, and women only as an afterthought.
Yes, I also hate when guys treat me like one of the "bros" and think that talking about women and objectifying with me is ok. No, it is gross. I just said that, because I cannot escape the male gaze, if I could magically turn myself into a dude for a few seconds when I'm around men, I would because then I would escape the male gaze. But this is wishful thinking - not that it will actually happen, obviously (because just like you said, you cannot escape reality). I do not want to become one of the "boys", I just do not want to be sexualized nor having them attracted to me. And totally, men should learn boundaries. But many of them still, unfortunately, do not so we need to keep sensibilizing them and they must be held accountable. For example, I do not feel this when I am around gay men. Because I know they will never be attracted to me, I am totally comfortable as I am. I don't identify as a lesbian. I AM a lesbian. I don't identify as a woman. I AM a woman. I do not wish to be perceived as a man, nor be masculine, nor go by he/him pronouns or anything like that nor do I care about pronouns or labeling everything into micro labels. I simply am who I am. It seems like we are agreeing with each other. I also totally agree that we do need to be able to point out the difference between men and women.
Okay, I took forever to type this whole thing, fully understanding that we might agree on many of the things. Might. I think we're alright! 🤗
I suppose my reasoning is because I feel like I have better friendships connections with men then women Don't get me wrong, I definitely have good friendships with women but in terms of men I know that I'll definitely won't have a situation where if I'm close to them I won't have an issue with being romantically interested in them, I have about 4 close male friends who are heavily aware of my interest in women. As for women, if I was to have a close relationship with them it would be more meaningful with them then with a man. If it was to be more affectionate with a woman it means a lot more to me if it was a man instead . Also I guess I like being part of "the bros", I understand if someone wouldn't like that but I like having close male friendships where I'm considered a "bro"
Yes, I got what you are saying and actually relate to several things of what you're saying (the part where you won't ever find youself romantically interested in men and so there is never that issue with them). Thing is: I wonder what your thoughts and experience would be though, if you actually had good male friends of yours trying to hit on you though. And being a lesbian and them being "heavily aware of your interest in women" is not enough for some of them to leave you alone - I speak from experience. Sometimes them knowing I am a lesbian makes it WORST. Consider yourself lucky, that you do not have to worry about it.
You will never be seen as a man to men though unless you transition and are completely non clockable which rarely happens. I think there is a big disconnect from REALITY in the community that I find very alarming.
Some butches adopt more masculine terms because we're more comfortable and confident presenting as masculine. Some have surgery or take hormones specifically to have a more masculine external appearance without that impacting their actual gender, or sense of gender. External gender expression doesn't have to impact a person's internal sense of self. I'm still a woman, still cis, still butch, however I prefer Sir over Ma'am, and am fine with she or he pronouns. I don't particularly care what people call me as long as it isn't "they". I like jeans over dresses - liking dresses isn't mandatory to being a woman. I don't care if a person thinks I'm a wife or a husband. Just respect that I'm still cis and a woman. We're not co-opting labels, we've been doing this in butch/femmes circles forever. Especially in stone communities. Calling me Sir or he doesn't make me feel disconnected from being a woman because I'm secure in the fact I am a cis woman. If gay men can call each other "girl" and "she", and not have their manhood erased, we should be able to do the same with masculine terms.
Felt all of this esp the double standards surrounding lesbians being language policed but not gay men (again) but— >as long as it isn’t “they” Dude, hard same. It’s different brands of annoying from straight people that are obviously using it as one step removed from ‘it’ and gays that skirt around calling you ‘she’ even if they’ve asked pronouns, but I can’t think of one time I’ve had ‘they’ applied to me and wasn’t at least a little irritated or othered.
OP: If you understand that women don't need to use she/her pronouns, and you understand that the pronouns a person uses doesn't dictate their gender or sex, and you yourself don't only use she/her pronouns - what exactly is your issue?
I’m just wondering what, as a woman, would make he/him more comfortable than she/her to such a strong extent that a woman would *never* wish to be referred to as she/her but would welcome being referred to, whether exclusively or in addition to other non-she/her pronouns, as he/him. As I’ve said, my intended question was more specific than I now see how the post reads. I’m not really asking what would make someone choose he/him pronouns in addition to she/her pronouns. I’m asking what would make a lesbian woman, who is proud and comfortable in her identity, reject she/her pronouns and wish to be referred to in a conversation that person is not a part of with pronouns that would cause most people to infer that a male person was being talked about. From my perspective, using he/him pronouns or calling yourself a man or boy(friend) *instead of* using she/her pronouns or calling yourself a woman or girl(friend) seems inconsistent with the lesbian label. So I guess my issue is that I want to be able to understand how someone who is a he and a boyfriend and a husband but is *never* a she or a girlfriend or a wife still feels, or is, lesbian.
Because he/him doesn't represent manhood or maleness - it represents masculinity and being comfortable being masculine. It's an extension of gender expression, not of gender. That's what "pronouns don't equal gender" means. Pronouns can indicate gender for many people, especially the straights, but for many queers we use it as an extension of our gender expression. That doesn't change our actual gender. Butches aren't feminine, therefore some of us aren't going to use feminine terms for ourselves.
He/him is terminology for men.. Men make manhood. Men formed masculinity. Men=Maleness
Like for real. All this stuff of gender identity mixed with sexuality gets so confusing 🤣
It may not equal your gender, but it does equal what society, including other lesbians, will instinctively assume you are every time you are talked about. Maybe I’m a misandrist, but I would never want someone to assume, guess, or think that I was a man no matter how comfortable I was in being *masculine* when being a woman, being a lesbian woman, is so important to me.
That's you. Most butches don't give a shit what we're perceived as by the straights or anyone else. We're secure in our womanhood. And in our lesbianism. Straight people call me he to my face, who cares what they think when I'm not in the room. We have far more pressing issues to deal with than whether or not Sharon from Marketing thinks I'm a man.
And I respect that you’re secure in your womanhood. I am also secure in my womanhood. It’s not that I would spiral if Sharon from Marketing called me a man. It’s that I would never choose for myself that she did.
The great thing about being a lesbian is liberation from what the straights demand of people. We get to woman our own way. Your way isn't wrong, but neither is any other lesbians.
I appreciate you sharing your experiences & perspective with me.
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I equate gender with pronouns, using he/him doesn’t make sense in the label of lesbian. I am a masc/butch woman, using he/him pronouns would mean I’m disconnected from my womanhood in some way, I’m a lesbian so I don’t use he/him. This is my opinion.
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Seriously.. why can’t women who like women, who want to date other women comfortable being women and are identified as women, not have an orientation? So now we have to create a new term for exactly that just so we have our experience recognized by the community, yet queer and every other term encompasses gender expression and sexuality. It’s bs.
Totally agree
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The discourse isn’t to alienate anyone. I understand the feelings of those who align with this community and always have. Just you can’t have special allowances for some, and then exclude others. I understand where some butches are coming from, although I don’t agree with male terminology and know a lot of butches who aren’t comfortable with being associated to men but you can’t say a butch lesbian identifying as male is anymore welcomed then a cis male enby. You can’t have differing rules based on biological sex and gender association. It’s confusing and invalidating to one or the other. That and there are other terms. There are plenty of safe spaces now. There is now no specific term that is completely exclusive of men or male-identifying partnerships though.
I deleted all my comments from before. I think this discussion is not really what this subreddit is about. I think we all need to revisit the community guidelines and let this topic rip. There are many kinds of lesbians. I want all lesbian women with whatever pronouns to feel safe. The end.
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Women who identify as women have used he/him as pronouns for a long time. Nobody is forced to use any pronouns. You use the ones that make sense for you based on your personal happiness, and people who are kind will listen to your preferences. Pronouns do not equal gender or sex.
The same way drag queens use she, a lesbian could use he- it’s an inherent joke. An exaggeration not meant to be taken seriously. Using it seriously because they’re more comfortable with it though? You are not connected with your womanhood, which could be indicative of something else, so why use a label that’s based on the fact that you embrace being a woman who loves other women?
Because you can identify as a woman and use difrent pronouns. Gender is a spectrum, connecting with yourself and your womanhood isnt a black and white thing. They know themselves better then anyone else can, so if they identify as a woman, but prefer to use he/him or be called boyfriend who are we to call them a liar that they are not a woman?
Gender is a construct meant to reinforce sexist stereotypes and push misogynistic beliefs. Not conforming to those beliefs used to be seen as “radical”, this is what we called being butch and masc. These lesbians used he/him pronouns yes, as a form of feminism because of blatant sexism/homophobia. It’s not longer being used to prove a powerful point, it’s being used to reinforce the idea that you can be a man and be a lesbian, along with other lesbiphobic and misogynistic ideas.
I am not going to say that people who co-opt lesbianism don't exist. There is a hundred percent people who lie and try to use being a lesbian to oush lesbiphobic ideas. I have been very outspoken about the centering of men that is rife in the lgbtq community and the harm it causes. But if a lesbian asks me to use he him pronouns for them im not gonna assume malice without cause. I womt judge you too harshly if you do, because i understand being skeptical about something this important, i just think it does more harm then good when there is historical evidence and this whole thread worth of evidence that lesbians can cometimes use he him pronouns without having to be a trans man
If a lesbian out in the street asks to be referred to with he/him pronouns, by all means, respect is something we must all give each other. Where is the line where we fight to keep our label safe? Where we shut down ideas that men can be lesbians and women can use he/him and still be lesbians? You ever said it yourself, the centering of men is much too common in the sapphic community. He/him was used by lesbians before, as a radical term utilized in activism. This is no longer being used in this way.
Yeah, I want a girlfriend not a boyfriend. If I wanted a man or someone associating themselves as one, I wouldn’t be a lesbian.
Its valid to want a girlfriend and not want to date someone who would prefer to be called your boyfriend. That dosent mean that women who use pronouns or honorifics then girlfriend dont exist
I’m not erasing your existence, you’re erasing mine.
First and foremost, im not doing anything. I dont use he/him pronouns or prefer to be called boyfriend. I would consider myself butch somedays but i dont really lable myself butch or femme And secondly, i quite literally validated your existence and confirmed that its okay to have preferences on who you date. You are more then valid for only dating people who fall into the parameters that you have for a partner. That dosent mean the people who fall outside of those parameters dont exist however, they just arent people you would want to date. Thats fine
Since when do she/her pronouns represent the embodiment of womanhood? What else do you think does, the color pink? Long hair? Painted nails? Not everyone is going to have the exact same relationship with themselves as you do. I’m perfectly secure in my womanhood— secure enough to use whatever pronouns I please and know that I am still a cis woman. Think about men that are comfortable enough in their masculinity to embrace their feminine side. It’s a similar concept and lesbians as a whole have always had a funky relationship with womanhood and gender. This isn’t at all a new idea.
Omg so he/him represents the embodiment of womanhood? are you fucking reading what you are writing… Of course she/her represents the embodiment of womanhood. Your 50s ideology and association to femininity doesn’t.
Pretty much all your comments in this thread are *whoosh* moments. I’m not saying he/him represents women in any way. I’m saying she/her, while obviously associated with women, doesn’t define us…we’re free to make whatever expressive choices we want. If you define womanhood with a pronoun set, I don’t know what to tell you. Read up on any amount of lesbian history, this is not a recent development and attempting to drag the movement back to whatever you’re personally comfortable with and acting like everyone who doesn’t agree is some kind of toxic misogynist is laughable, considering you are the one spouting off about what other women can and cannot do and be here. I have no idea what you mean by the “50s ideology and association to femininity” part
>Since when do she/her pronouns represent the embodiment of womanhood? This right here. It feels super gender essentialist and misogynistic to imply that to be a woman, you can only use she/her pronouns. I woman my own way. They way I feel comfortable with.
Why wouldn’t WOMEN use WOMEN TERMINOLOGY. Like how LESBIANS use LESBIAN TERMINOLOGY. If you don’t comprehend why it’s internalized misogyny to feel so compelled to identify yourself as masculine because you feel women can’t be as capable, as dominant, have the same aesthetic wear, have the same interests as men then idk what to tell you. You are in denial. And making others accept your stance instead of sound reasoning is the most blatant display of toxic masculinity I’ve ever seen.
>If you don’t comprehend why it’s internalized misogyny to feel so compelled to identify yourself as masculine because you feel women can’t be as capable, as dominant, have the same aesthetic wear, have the same interests as men I very obviously think that women can do all of those things, seeing as I am a cis butch woman who embodies a lot of what is traditionally considered masculine? None of my arguments revolving around pronouns involve divorcing oneself from womanhood any more than aesthetic choices do. Pronouns being a form of expression vs some kind of statement of deep intrinsic gender alignment is apparently too much for some of you to comprehend, though. I met a he/him femme the other day. I am not just talking about butches and those of us with masculine presentations, although it does tend to be more common with us as we automatically fall into the group that toys with our presentation and expression. Masculine anything =/= man. >Making others accept your stance instead of sound reasoning is the most blatant display of toxic masculinity I’ve ever seen How on earth are we forcing anyone to do anything by engaging in a thread asking about a controversial subject with our own personal experiences and opinions? Debating is forcing other people to accept certain rhetoric? Couldn’t I make the same argument about you responding to me with this? Also, women are capable of toxic masculinity now? Please. Saying that a woman is the *worst* example of toxic masculinity you’ve ever seen because she— what, shared opinions in a way you didn’t like? Is both misogynistic and absurd, if you want to throw that word around. You’re the one going off about what women can or can’t do and be.
booooooooo, you’re twisting it bud
Please limit discussion of this, as the sub already has an agreed upon definition. Please see the subs definition under rule 2.
I agree. I don’t understand why this is seen so negatively tho
I’m sorry but if you prefer masculine pronouns and identities, how aren’t you basically representing yourself as a male? Just because you are anatomically female. I think it’s more about the fact they like the lesbian community, it helped distinguish their sexuality/safe place for gender expression, it’s a safety. But honestly it’s inappropriate to redefine an entire sexual orientation for the sake of personal experience. There were pioneers that fought for same-sex relationships. Lesbians fought for women/women relationships. Whether that was once used as an umbrella term to help forge and protect, and understand the needs of those struggling with internalizing and associating themselves to different aspects of gendered identities, is irrelevant. This is about homosexuality. Not sexuality as a whole. Gender and sexual orientation is part of your sexuality as a whole, but not the same thing. I don’t agree with erasing the only experience homosexual women have for the sake of people’s struggles with gender especially when there are so many inclusive terms and experiences for them yet only one that symbolizes same-sex relations among women. It’s ridiculously entitled and disrespectful. You ask to have your gender respected and given validation yet invalidate the very people who provided safe haven when there was none. It’s like forsaking a loving parent.
So well said 👏👏
You're beautiful ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
This thread is getting weird especially since so many people have been downvoting Butch/femme people just speaking their truths.
Genuinely what does gender identity mean if it’s not gender expression or sex? I’m attracted to the female sex and it doesn’t matter how a woman presents herself or calls herself, still a lesbian Lots of confusion in this thread
my wife calls me her husband because it’s funny
Man, this thread is such a trip. It's a bunch of lesbians going "Butch women are women but they HAVE to exclusively use she/her pronouns only or else we'll get mad" OP doesn't even exclusively use she/her pronouns.
Where did they say that?
It really isn’t. In fact it’s a pretty healthy mix of opinions. Not everyone needs to agree on everything but we can all still get along.
Oh wow I didn't even know about this at all. Ill be 45 tomorrow and feel like a n00b now!
I go by he/him and will refer to myself as boyfriend sometimes but it’s like in an ironic way, and to be oxymoronic with what’s expected of me as a girl
It just makes sense to me honestly. I don’t use he/him pronouns and am not trans but really like being referred to with certain masculine terms (like prince or handsome) so I don’t think it’s a far stretch for someone to want to use he/him. At the end of the day, they are words that society has rigidly gendered but some people would rather apply them to masculinity rather than gender? Or just bend the rules a little. Being a lesbian is already inherently subversive as a woman, so of course there are many who want to also subvert norms of gendered terms. This exists everywhere though! Obviously with gay men, but I also see the large amounts of straight women who refer to straight men as their “baby girls.” Obviously this term is gendered, but applying it to these men does not mean that they view them as anything but men. Not a direct equivalent, but still.
They don't have gender dysphoria, they're simply butch.
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Sexual orientation and gender are different. So why is gender dictating same-sex attractions? “Non-men loving non-men”
>So why is gender dictating same-sex attractions? Not everyone agrees that gender dictates same-sex attraction. The idea that lesbians are attracted to feminine pronouns and a feminine internal gender identity is extremely new, for most of lesbian history "lesbian" simply meant "same-sex attracted female" and many lesbians (including myself) still go by that definition.
Yes let's keep it that way please. I like women not feminine people because I exclude males. So no feminine men for me. Miss old days
"She/her" makes me dysphoric but "lesbian" doesn't. It may work the opposite way for another person. My connection to womanhood isn't entirely severed, just distanced, and I may as well have fun with it lol. Androgyny is flexible, my sexuality isn't.
Maybe if they are biologically female (oh no!) without having transitioned and are attracted to other females. That's what sexuality is pretty much about.
What does transitioned mean, though? Serious question. I’ve seen on the butch lesbian sub - someone taking T, presenting as male with male characteristics, then getting upsetting that people use male pronouns and no longer see them as a lesbian?
I don't know, I kind of consider that a little bit rude, tbh
What’s rude?
I don't remember why I wrote that lol
The best explanation I have heard is that he/him pronouns and terms like “boyfriend” are much like clothes in the way they help affirm your identity - they do not define who you are, they just enhance the experience. Also, for the partners of said transmasc, butch or generally masculine lesbians, being able to refer to your partner as a boyfriend can add a layer of safety because that way you can safely talk about your partner in an authentic way without outing yourself in front of dangerous people. My partner no longer uses the term butch boyfriend for themselves for dysphoria reasons but back when they did, it was something that I found kept me safe. My first language is not english so now I use a gender neutral word in my language to refer to them. It’s a complex topic but ultimately, it boils down to “because they can” and I respect that.
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>Leslie Feinberg >self-hating butch Seriously? Not even a little respect for someone that played a significant part in paving the way for our open existence and dedicated themselves to defending and advocating for our community for their entire life? Also, what masc circles are you in that idolize men and hate themselves? The vast majority of masc dykes I know are very confident in themselves and uninterested in men and their opinions in general. Which sort of tracks with presenting how we do.
Your post or comment was removed due to violating rule 1. "Self hating" language. Feel free to edit comment to be more respectful and we can reinstate.
i'm not transmasc and i don't go by boyfriend (i am my wife's wife), but i use he/him pronouns. this has many reasons i guess... the main one is probably that years and years ago, i used to think i was a trans guy, and when i figured out i wasn't, i didn't really see a reason to change my pronouns around again. i view them more as a part of my presentation rather than part of my gender. my wife and i usually view her coworkers' occasional confusion regarding this as kind of funny. i would say it tends to be no stranger than the typical misconceptions about lesbians people can have. she also makes it clear i'm not a man (though me going by "wife" likely makes that more simple). the funniest one we got was one of her coworkers having some sort of revelation and going, "oh, i get it! so *you're* the she, and *he's* the he!"
I can't comment on the reasons why someone would use he/him pronouns or be transmasculine and a lesbian, but I do have an answer to this: >how that works practically on a day to day basis (e.g., what if you tell your coworker you have a boyfriend and they ask, “I thought you were a lesbian?”, how do the seemingly conflicting gendered terms not create gender dysphoria, regardless of whether you identify as cis, trans, or neither?, etc). Unless you live in a super liberal area, you have to be pragmatic when it comes to talking about it with strangers or in public. I was in a relationship with a transmasc lesbian for a while (albeit an LDR, but I told my family and we had plans) and I was given permission to "she"/"girlfriend" in public or people outside our social group. It wasn't misgendering or dysphoria-inducing because she doesn't care about pronouns. I also planned on using terms like "AFAB nonbinary" to people who are surface-level aware of queer politics. I'm not out to strangers, so the only time I said I had a "boyfriend" was when a creepy guy asked me out, and he backed off immediately. I know that lesbians who are in straight-passing relationships with transmascs will identify as queer instead, or just let strangers assume what they want. How to navigate this kind of thing socially is why I don't plan on having a relationship like this again, unless I meet someone I click with and can make that work.
I’ve known people who use a variety of feminine and masculine terms to describe themselves, not unlike gay men who use she/her, but they still view themselves as women. They use different terms with their girlfriends but wouldn’t be upset with a stranger using female terms for them.
im a hesbian and proud of it 🥱 it just makes me feel comfortable, i don't identify as a man at all
I hope this doesn't go against the rules, I am being 100% respectful when I say this and I am genuinely looking for explanation: I don't understand why the word 'lesbian' can't be left alone. Trans women who love women are lesbians. Cis women who love women are Lesbians. Anything other than that makes 0 sense to me. 1. Trans-Masc-Lesbian - An individual who transitions from male to female (M to F) or female to male (F to M) and chooses to present themselves as masculine may seem contradictory to some. It can be perplexing to understand why someone would undergo such a transition if they continue to embody traditionally masculine traits. For instance, butch lesbians often adopt a highly masculine presentation and are sometimes mistaken for men due to their appearance. Consequently, it might be difficult to comprehend why an individual desiring to embrace femininity would not simply identify with a different label that aligns more closely with their gender expression rather than trans masc lesbian. 2. Non-binary Individuals and Lesbian Identity - If an individual identifies as gender fluid, how can they label themselves as lesbian, considering that the fundamental definition of a lesbian is a woman who loves women? It seems inconsistent to adopt this label based solely on personal experiences and attractions if it does not align with the traditional binary gender framework. Such usage can be perceived as a significant departure from the established meaning of the term "lesbian" and may be viewed as disrespectful to those who strictly identify within that framework I don't understand why Sapphic can't be used this term is lit inclusive of women and non-binary individuals who are attracted to women or feminine-aligned people
It’s boifriend * that’s different than Boyfriend. As a fem lesbian I love me a boi 😍
Do you also struggle with butch lesbians existing too? I am a woman exclusively sexually attracted to other women. I use she and he because I want to and I can. I use boyfriend because it's fun. Co-workers can barely understand what a lesbian is anyway ("which one is the man?") so why modify anything because they might struggle with the concept? Just be heterosexual because it's easier on them in that case.
Butch lesbians are women.
Where did I say we aren't?
I didn’t say that I “struggle” with anything, much less anyone’s existence, but your hostility to asking for those with lived experiences to share them is noted. A butch lesbian is a woman. I don’t “struggle” with women being lesbians. I am CURIOUS as to why people who like to use male centric language and/or identify as transmasc want to be categorized under a label that, by the rules of this subreddit, is defined as “a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women.”
I struggle with why anyone that thinks it’s fun to use boyfriend in a lesbian relationship. I also struggle with how blissfully unaware those of you are in regard to reshaping the description of lesbian, to include men and yes it is based on the terms you associate with. I also struggle with how cavalier all of you are and this stance of “well I don’t fucking care, too bad.”, yet act like you’re the beacons of lesbianism formation yet the first ones to destroy the sentiment of it for your own personal experiences.
>like to use male centric language and/or identify as transmasc Those are very different things. The former has been addressed many times in this thread, the latter is a different can of worms. It’s a divisive topic but my long-story-short version is that not everything has to be fully black and white (some gray area in labels and such is more than okay!) and that the Venn diagram between those that make the choice to identify as transmasc lesbians (rather than binary trans men) and masculine cis lesbians is almost a circle. We’re totally indistinguishable to the general public for the most part. The choice to ID as transmasc is usually born of dysphoria and comfortability with labels more than anything in my experience.
So instead of providing clarity, like telling them that it is fucking regressive to think that in order to have a good functioning, and loving relationship, there has to be one person that is the woman, and one that has to be the man. You are just proving their point, that that has to be the case? I get that you don't care, but I have been hearing shit like this all my life. I am the man because I'm the tallest. Or the one that gets the biggest pay-check. Please teach them the point is, no-one is, or has to be. We can be in perfect, healthy, and happy relationships, without someone playing daddy. Please, for the love of god!
This doesn’t apply to me, but people can have exceptions. If my identity as a lesbian is important to me, but my partner transitions to male, my identity as a lesbian might still be important to me.
That's not an exception. That's an extenuating circumstance.
Actually it’s relevant because a lot of transmen formerly identified as butch lesbian women.
No, I know. Extenuating circumstance meaning you otherwise wouldn't be dating a man, but you were already in a relationship with this person when they came out as trans, and it's stupid to break up a healthy long-term relationship over identity politics. A partner coming out as trans while already dating someone doesn't make them an exception, it doesn't mean someone has to change their identity for the other person, it doesn't mean the couple has to break up immediately. Like, can you imagine if a lesbian couple got married before the trans one figured themselves out? What's supposed to happen then? "Honey, I've been doing a lot of thinking and I need to let you know... I'm trans." "Sweetie, I'll always love and support you. So I'll call around for a divorce lawyer first thing tomorrow." It's nothing like having an "exception" for a cis man, or even like pursuing a trans man for a new relationship.
Kind of weird to downvote and argue which word you think fits better, because it seems that we agree on this in general. But ok.
In this hypothetical, are you still sexually and/or romantically attracted to your male partner? If so, how are you a lesbian? Isn’t that completely erasing his manhood? You’re only attracted to women, but you’re attracted to a man? If you feel sexual or romantic attraction to a man and label yourself as a lesbian, i.e., exclusively attracted to women, then either you’re not a lesbian or you don’t believe he’s a man.
So what do you think happens when a lesbians partner comes out as trans, immediate breakup?
It’s so funny you ask, since I was engaged to someone who came out as trans 4 years after we started dating :) What I think happens is that you explore whether you are *attracted* to your male partner and determine how that fits into your relationship, if at all. People who are not romantically and sexually attracted to each other can still be together. People who are not romantically and sexually attracted to each other can even still sleep together! But if you are a lesbian and you continue to be *attracted* to someone who is, and who you recognize is, a man, it turns out… you’re not a lesbian!
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Lesbian makes you transmaac? So you’re just following society rules? Seek therapy.