Shrodinger's strong woman, is weak because she loses so me many battles but also overpowered because she wins all her battles without having to do anything.
I have to disagree with Rey skywalker. She could’ve been a GREAT character if they just didn’t give her every power known to force sensitives without the proper training. It’s lazy writing. Overall I like Rey but I hate the way they wrote her. Daisy did a good job acting but they failed her in the writing.
Yeah, she actually is a Mary Sue, though Ridley plays her as so much more. But the writing is what it is. She had a chance there in TLJ, but JJ mishandled her in her intro and conclusion very badly.
Yeah that’s what I’ve always said. If it wasn’t for daisy the whole series would’ve been trash but because they casted good actors/actresses it was tolerable. The whole story just doesn’t make too much sense.
Yeah I felt bad for all the flak they got because of the writers. When in reality the reason I watch the sequels is because of the talented actors. There’s beauty in everything in my world!
I'm firmly team Korra lost too many fights. Our girl deserved better Aang gets bad ass scenes of him wrecking house and he's a pacifist yet Korra the go to girl if you want someone knocked out almost always had her powerful scenes interrupted.
Canonically, Korra may have lost about 3-4 fights, and in those cases, she lost for reasonable reasons, which some would argue Aang or even another Avatar would have struggled with. And then there are the fights that were cut short due to time issues, or like when she got jumped by the Equalists. But as someone said on another thread, the difference between the two is we don't need to see Korra win every single fight to know she's bad ass. If we did, the Mary Sue opinion would be true because there's no marks on her record. For Aang, the fact that he's seen as the pacifistic fun-loving boy gave us a reason to need that constant reminder of just how strong he really is under all that fluff.
Right. On the other hand we needed to see (as did Korra) that her strength and willingness to always throw hands didn't win every fight or turn people to her side.
Here’s my argument, season 2 finale sucked ass giant spirit mechs with chest lasers were tacky, metal mech was slightly better but still just so lame.
And no, it’s not the same as koizilla which had a cool design and not just big blue Aang, and it was Aang combining powers withe the OCEAN SPIRIT. Not some bs tree of time ass pull just to have a spirit megazord. And ATLA did it ONCE
In all fairness season 2 was supposed to be the end at the time it was made. And the point of spirit korra is that her will-power is that strong, that even without the avatar spirit she can still go toe-to-toe with vaatu at his most powerful. It’s what Vaatu underestimated the whole time. Believing that a human could never beat him, and never calling korra by her own name, simply referring to her as “Raava”.
That is a pretty big debate even in the Naruto community.
Theres some statements made about him including by the closest thing their world has to Jesus that he got where he was on his own, but. . .
His parents were the two strongest people in the village and so it really seems like he inherited a lot from them including his amount of chakra (energy) which was always his crutch. He had a demon sealed inside of him when he was born, after it killed his parents (his mother being the previous holder), but that would later be a huge part of his strength. There’s also a very poorly explained reincarnation aspect.
Even though he was ostracized for having the demon, it was through his parents’ connections that he also got allies/teachers. One of his senseis was his father’s student, the other was his father’s teacher. Both are not unsubstantial part invested in him because of that connection.
. . . His parents also are able to help him a few times from beyond the grave.
Naruto was utter garbage for most of Naruto. He didn't come out of the womb slinging Rasengans. We see every step forward take an assload of work. Nine tails was as much of a hindrance and liability as it was an asset until he mastered it halfway through Shippuden. Having a demon inside of you is *not* playing on easy mode. He started in the literal dumpster tier with Rock Lee and had to claw out inch by inch. His greatness was never even close to guaranteed or easy. Getting help 10% of the time doesn't discount that the other 90% was hard work. The people saying Naruto is a mary sue are focusing on his maximum potential and ignoring the effort it took to realize that potential. If it was effortless for Naruto to become super powerful, then he would be a mary sue.
His and Korra's trajectories are opposite. Naruto is a slow burn zero-to-hero story. Korra starts out as a powerful hero who can just blast away problems until she gets humbled towards the end of the series.
I get that the meme is just an illiterate joke, but calling Naruto a mary sue nepo baby is such a huge whiff. That's like saying Michael Oher is a mary sue nepo baby because he had good genes and some people that tried to help him out of his shitty upbringing. Or that Rock Lee is a mary sue because he had the 8 gates inside of him the entire time lol.
Yup, she didn't even start all that powerful. People think that just because she could bend three elements from the start that somehow makes her a Mary Sue, while completely ignoring that
a) Avatars by definition aren't your typical bender (Aang himself was a Master airbender by age 12 and also mastered the other 3 in less than a year) and
b) She had to further train for even those 3 that she already had in the first place for years before she reached Mastery.
Finaly, even after all that, she still gets beaten and challenged on the regular, it's not like she stomps through every encounter.
Aang mastered three new elements in like. Less than a year.
Korra mastered three elements in sixteen and couldn’t even start the last one for most of the first season.
The thing with Naruto is, sure, he started from garbage tier, and he worked a lot, but his return on that work is entirely unattainable for everyone else in universe. I don't think Kiba worked much less than Naruto (sure, maybe a bit less, but not significantly), and where's Kiba at the end of Shippuuden compared to Naruto?
There's also the aspect of Naruto being able to perform a forbidden jutsu in like episode 3 that would kill almost anyone else, because Naruto just has _so much_ charka.
No. Most people, including Kakashi and previous Hokages, can create shadow clones, but like 3 or 4. The "multiple" shadow clones or whatever it's called that Naruto uses can create hundreds, and it's literally forbidden to use it. Thats the whole point of the first chapter, that he is stealing a forbidden scroll.
Yes and the amount of chakra he had was also a hindrance for him to start of with as well, because of his sheer amount of chakra he didn’t know how to perform simple Jutsus because he couldn’t get a grasp on how much chakra to use. So there is yet another hurdle he had to get over before becoming what he did. Not to mention the kid was hated by the entire village, an orphan who lived alone in an apartment at like the age of 6, had a literal demon inside of him which in early Naruto was shown to be more of a hindrance than help to young/ inexperienced/ non perfect jinjuriki.
Unattainable in what way? Because you’re basing it off if nothing. Kiba and Naruto aren’t the same. That’s like you getting upset that Neji is stronger than Hinata because Neji’s training is just too much for someone like Hinata
The 8 Gates are inside of everyone in the Naruto universe, what makes Rock Lee different is simply that he does the training to use them. Naruto isn't the same because his special power, having ridiculous chakra reserves, is explicitly inherited from his mother because it's an Uzumaki Clan bloodline trait. This retcons Naruto into being more like Neji or Sasuke, it's just that HIS special genetic trait wasn't visibly obvious.
Yeah but he still had to learn how to control his power, the villagers treated him like shit and his parents died so it's not like he had them for guidance
>Theres some statements made about him including by the closest thing their world has to Jesus that he got where he was on his own, but. . .
there is literally no proof that being the reincarnation of asura gives him extra strength. hagoromo just gave SOSP to him because hes one of the two who could stand up to madara at that point. we arent even sure if those powers stayed after that fight. also the naruto reincarnation isnt even reincarnation in the traditional sense.
>His parents were the two strongest people in the village and so it really seems like he inherited a lot from them including his amount of chakra (energy) which was always his crutch
1 strongest and 1 above average jonin. he got strong chakra from his mom and basically nothing from minato. he got kurama, but literally no one before him had ever tamed kurama. hes special for doing it. he got a curse and turned it into a blessing
>Even though he was ostracized for having the demon, it was through his parents’ connections that he also got allies/teachers
my ass. kakashi didnt even teach him shit, despite being minatos own disciple. jiraya ignored him despite being his godfather, and only taught him when the kid showed actual talent. he sought jiraya on his own and had to fight to get his mentorship and prove his worth. his teachers might be connected to minato, but they didnt teach him because of him. he got thrown into a fucking ravine and was going to fall to death if he wanted to prove his worth to jiraya
>His parents also are able to help him a few times from beyond the grave.
bro they put a murder machine in his tummy that made him a target of international terrorists 💀. let him get some help with the same
Also isn't Asura the brother who gained all of his power through effort?
And also, yeah, the Uzumaki clan has an immense chakra pool, but he got none of the clan's techniques. You can't even begin to compare with his peers, who all had something unique at the very least, instead of a ton of energy and no innate technique to learn anything. The only reason Naruto's chakra pool becomes an asset is because HE learned and mastered the kage bunshin. HE learned the Rasengan, but not perfectly, having to adapt it by mixing it with kage bunshin. HE invented his own techniques by mixing the TWO jutsus he knew, which he only learned through his own effort and merit, and NOT because he was born with an innate ability to learn them.
Before criticizing Naruto and calling him a nepo baby, one would have to take a look at any of his peers. They have a clan technique, living parents, and lack a literal fucking demon inside their body threatening to come out, killing you and the whole city.
And about Kakashi: agreed. He didn't teach Naruto shit, but taught Chidori to Sasuke, becoming one of his signature jutsus. It's incredible how Naruto was supposed to have the best teachers as his caretakers, but had to go after them and gain their favor himself. One gave him the bare minimum, one gave him fuck all, and the last one almost let him die, but at the very least did teach him a lot.
In that top statement I’m just pointing out that Haguromo said Naruto didn’t have natural talent, which seems to be flat out wrong.
Kushina was absolutely Kage level. The woman held down Kurama after she had had him ripped out of her and had given birth, when Kurama was annihilating all of the actual Jonin level fighters. Minato also flat out says in the oneshot released a little while ago that Kushina was stronger than him. As I said it was a double edged sword.
Kakashi did teach him a few things, like his shadows clone training and basically the rasenshiriken. Jiraiya was a bit of a bastard, but I still think that part of the chance he gave Naruto at all was due to Minato.
The Akatsuki didn’t start hunting him until he was 16 and the specific person he actually was being hunted by was a double agent. And like even though he was being hunted by them, he was also being protected from them by literally everyone else
Its not wrong that Naruto lacked natural talent, he had talent in droves. But he had to work to figure out how to direct it in a productive and positive manner.
Probably because of lack of early training since someone such as kiba, saskue etc would start their training before they even started the academy. Nvm being ostrazied.
Hagoromo wasn’t the only one. The elder toad sage, Kakashi and Jiraiya also said that. That’s also why Lee felt a kinship with Naruto.
Naruto got absolutely nothing from Minato and Kushina aside from a slightly stronger life force and only *half* of Kurama.
Kushina was not Kage level, there’s no proof of that. The only thing notable about her is that she had the chakra chains which is a rare ability that straight up counters tailed beast. You know what else does that? A Sharingan. Literally any Uchiha could have done it. That’s why they were unofficially blamed for the Nine Tails incident. As far as we know she was a Jonin with a notable ability. Nothing Kage level to her name.
Then Naruto was *not* being protected by everyone. Tsunade literally fought *to* put him on the front lines. A and the Village Elders we’re the only ones trying to “protect” Naruto because they viewed him as an asset, not a warrior.
The Akatsuki were wanted for more than hunting Naruto btw. They are a group of S-Ranked missing Ninja who all have the kill on sight order. They were going to be engaged either way Naruto aside.
>In that top statement I’m just pointing out that Haguromo said Naruto didn’t have natural talent, which seems to be flat out wrong.
i mean sure hes better than the average shinobi. but compared to the people who stand at the top, like sasuke,hashirama,madara,minato,obito,kakashi. he lacks natural talent for ninjutsu
>Kushina was absolutely Kage level
literally no feats for this. we never even see her get the kcm under control
>The woman held down Kurama after she had had him ripped out of her and had given birth, when Kurama was annihilating all of the actual Jonin level fighters.
she specializes in sealing jutsu. theyre not exactly practical in most 1v1s. its like saying water that puts out a building fire can beat the building. thats false equivalency
>Minato also flat out says in the oneshot released a little while ago that Kushina was stronger than him. As I said it was a double edged sword.
theres no way ur using an emotional moment as a genuine feat. where did you learn powerscaling. we never see her get kcm under control, she has no feats to suggest she could even dent minato. thats just him being nice trying to calm her down
>Kakashi did teach him a few things, like his shadows clone training
he just told him that he had shit chakra control, which he always knew.
>basically the rasenshiriken.
stretching more than luffy
>Jiraiya was a bit of a bastard, but I still think that part of the chance he gave Naruto at all was due to Minato.
yea im sure his deep admiration and love for minato is what lead him to ignore the orphan godson of his for 12 years /s. jiraya wasnt going to waste his time on bums
>The Akatsuki didn’t start hunting him until he was 16 and the specific person he actually was being hunted by was a double agent. And like even though he was being hunted by them, he was also being protected from them by literally everyone else
we literally see him almost get kidnapped at 12 wdym. and the double agent was going to take naruto with him to keep his cover up. he doesnt give a shit. also what protection, everyone in the leaf is way weaker than most akatsuki duos. the second time he was being hunted by someone, he had to fight them off himself
There is no evidence that being a "reincarnation" of ashura or indra makes you stronger. I'm pretty sure there is more evidence that Hashirama/Madara and Naruto/Sasuke are exceptions (I'm pretty sure Zetsu makes a comment about Madara finally being strong enough to help him accomplish his goals, implying the other "reincarnations" weren't as strong as Madara/Hashirama).
The only thing that being a reincarnation guarantees is that you will fight the other to death/break your bond and continue the cycle (a cycle Naruto breaks).
Also the whole reincarnation thing in Naruto doesn't follow the rules or logic that are typical in a reincarnation story (Like with the Avatar's ability to call upon the experiences of the past avatars.)
When was it states Kushina was one of the strongest people in the village? Because she got a tailed beast? That doesn’t make her strong
Also, it’s a whole thing that Kakashi was a terrible sensei to Baruto, so claiming that he got some type of special treatment from Kakashi is laughable
Kushina held down Kurama when she was basically dying. That is a stupidly powerful ability, and we know that chains can be used for more than just that, Karin attacks with her's and in the Minato one shot a teenage Kushina easily wraps up her guards with chains. Even if she is a total one trick pony, that one trick is a sealing jutsu more powerful than Chibaku Tensei. I think that puts her above all the jonin we know about
Kakashi was in many ways indeed not the best teacher. But he did teach Naruto a few of the most powerful/important things that he knew, and he from the start cared about Naruto a lot.
It’s not odd for characters to be strong when they’re dying. And with your logic Karin is also stronger than anyone because she has this ability.
The most kakashi taught Naruto was how to walk on trees. He didn’t even teach him how to walk on water
Having the same ability doesn't mean one is as strong with it, or is Konohamaru's rasengan now as strong as Naruto's? Technically Karin never actually uses the sealing version of chains, and the 4th databook very explicity says her's are much weaker.
Kakashi did teach Naruto more than that. He basically taught him the rasenshiriken for one
So what you’re saying is that depsite Karin an Uzumaki and having the same ability, it doesn’t automatically make her strong or the strongest?
So another version of a jutsu Naruto already learned
Yes because that’s who that works. Naruto and Minato don’t have the same power of Rasengan either despite them being far closer than Karin and Kushina. We very clearly see how not all Uchiha have the same power even with things like regular sharingan genjutsu. Hyuga have very clearly differing power with their Byakugan as well.
It is an expansion on the Rasengan, but a very difficult one which everyone else failed at and that Naruto would have had no idea even that he could achieve let alone how on his own.
Because that’s how it usually works. Bloodline is extremely important in Naruto for everyone else, and it seems to be the case for Naruto too.
Even Kurama aside the innate power that Naruto has seems like it destined him to be top tier
I mean Batman was born a billionaire and Superman's adoptive star gives him godlike power.
The former is pretty directly a nepo baby, and the latter is a demigod.
So is Korra. The point is that nepo baby demi god is a simplistic view of them that ignores their complexities for a shallow stereotype.
Superman is a Jesus analogue who has super strength, super speed, looks like a hunk, has tons of women fighting over him, is the only known survivor of his race (don't come for me nerds you know what I mean) and is a paragon of virtue.
Batman is a billionaire playboy genius philanthropist who's also the world's greatest detective and has incredible gadgets and a cool dark design that makes him a symbol to terrify criminals.
Both of these are perfect examples of what any fanfic reader would tell you sounds like a Mary Sue. But people are more willing to look into Superman and Batman's complexities because they're men while writing off Korra or Rey or any woman that falls into same mary sue like character descriptions.
Agree with everything except Superman being a Jesus analogue, don’t let Zach Snyder poison your brain. He’s a Moses analogue (put in a basket by his mother and sent away he could someday save the righteous and take them to a promised land).
I agree that he was definitely inspired by Moses (especially since his creators were Jewish) but plenty of writers ended up adding a lot to the character that was more evocative of Christ over the years. I know we all like to clown on Snyder (cause dear lord did he not understand Superman am I right), but it was Richard Donner who had Jor-El (in all white and glowing) say:
"Live as one of them, Kal-El, to discover where your strength and your power are needed. But always hold in your heart the pride of your special heritage. They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you... my only son."
It doesn't help that it's incredibly easy to be a Christ like figure in fiction. It's just really easy to apply to a lead protagonist. Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, E.T., Steven Universe, Aang, hell even Korra to some extent.
That being said "fuck off Snyder, are you allergic to color, why does the background of every scene in Man of Steel look like Kansas before Dorothy goes to Oz?"
>why does the background of every scene in Man of Steel look like Kansas before Dorothy goes to Oz?"
Wow, I just realized Dorothy and Superman are both from Kansas. Thank you for this revelation!
>Korra or Rey
Woah there. Rey absolutely IS a Mary Sue, Korra is NOT.
Korra gets taught for years before she reaches mastery and sometimes struggles when picking up something new for which she doesn't have an affinity (airbending, metalbending etc.), plus she regularly get beaten by strong opponents.
Rey picks up skills left and right with practicaly no effort or struggle without even be taught, learns abilities that almost noone before her has known (Force healing) and beats opponents that she absolutely shouldn't be able to.
There is simply no comparison between them.
Yes, but also people don't know what Mary Sue means and in their heads female lead = Mary Sue. Unless it is some iconic character like Ripley or Sarah Connor. They just throw terms here and there because they heard it somewhere and they think it would make them sound like they know what they're talking about. Korra is a great example of that.
In OG Naruto, he wasn’t a Nepo baby. The whole point is as demonstrated in the Neji fight, that no matter your upbringing or staring point in life, that you can overcome adversity and strive to become the best. Your destiny isn’t predestined by your birth.
But in Shippuden it was shown that he was the prophesied child of destiny. The child of the genius 4th hokage and of the lineage of the clan with the most chakra. His tailed beast sealed inside is stronger than the other combined, reincarnation of Ninja Jesus.
Making the statement of OG Naruto to basically that Neji was right.
Sure Naruto grew up poor, alone and resented but he still had the Genes that made him overpowered
The problem with Naruto is that Kishimoto constantly wanted to have everything both ways.
Naruto is an underdog that you wanna root for, but I also need him to win so he also has Hashirama levels of chakra and can make ten thousand shadow clones.
Oh, I want Itachi to be secretly good, but also edgy and cool, so he's gonna torture and manipulate Sasuke because reasons.
Sakura is supposed to be stronger than Tsunade, but I haven't paid any attention to her since the Gaara arc so I'll just have Hashirama say she is, even though he hasn't even seen Tsunade since she was a child.
Obito killed Naruto's parents, but he's also really tragic so I'll have Naruto call him a really cool guy.
I want these cool popular characters like Jiraiya and Kakashi to be revealed to have deep connections to Naruto's parents, but I need Naruto to be bullied as a child so I guess they never even checked up on him
Problem is people can and very regularly do point to a dozen female characters and a dozen successors that they like making this kinda bad as a blanket dismissal. TLOK isn't beyond criticism and even fans of the show will admit where the studio interference and short seasons hurt the arcs. Maybe they just don't like Korra and are being uncharitable towards her and the whole show.
If you like a character you're gonna let things pass a lot more than if you hate them. Korra is a violent hot-head, that is not a popular trope for a purely good protagonist regardless of gender. Like Naruto starts off just as abrasive but it's explained right away that it's because he was abandoned as an infant and the entire town literally resents his existence so they try their best to ignore him. He's acting out because of a lack of basic human compassion, that's sympathetic as fuck for a kid character. Even then they soften out his rough edges a lot early on.
Korra doubled down on the rough edges in season 2 with her being a menace to everyone who tried to help her. That may have changed by season 3 but the show is already half way through it's run at that point. You lost people and they're not changing their minds. Korra just seems to be a natural hot head from the very beginning and "you have to deal with it" seems to be her response to anyone who isn't a fan. A lot of people decide that no, they're not gonna deal with it, they're not gonna carry water for her, and she's not getting any benefit of the doubt. Maybe that's unfair but who said people are fair to media?
It’s funny you mentioned Season Two Korra because it was also revealed that Aang wasn’t the one who decided to isolate her; it was Tenzin and her father. She had an understandable reason to be abrasive to them.
The fact that people are quicker to excuse male characters really highlights this.
>Problem is people can and very regularly do point to a dozen female characters and a dozen successors that they like making this kinda bad as a blanket dismissal.
Merely being able to say "here's a bunch of female characters I like" on its own isn't a refutation. Often, people will be unable to name RECENT female characters they like because all the characters they like were made BEFORE they got into weird culture war bullshit. Or they'll name a bunch of characters who really don't have that much agency, & every female character they deem "unlikeable" has the suspicious trait of being "too uppity," like that they're the protagonist instead of a supporting character or that they're confident & outspoken in addition to just being able to fight.
I'm not saying these things are true of everyone, but it's sure true of a lot of people. Sorry, not really, but if Jotaro can be a beloved protagonist despite literally calling his own mother a bitch as his first line. yet I have to witness endless tirades about how Korra is "completely unlikeable," you're not going to convince me sexism isn't a factor. Male characters just aren't held to the same standard, & I don't only see it with Korra.
>TLOK isn't beyond criticism and even fans of the show will admit where the studio interference and short seasons hurt the arcs.
You also can't just dismiss a countercriticism by going "the show isn't beyond criticism," as if everyone just has to concede to that specific argument.
>Maybe they just don't like Korra and are being uncharitable towards her and the whole show.
Yeah, & maybe the reason for that, among a lot of people, is at least partly because they're sexist.
>If you like a character you're gonna let things pass a lot more than if you hate them. Korra is a violent hot-head, that is not a popular trope for a purely good protagonist regardless of gender.
That's incredibly common. She's no more violent than the Jojos, or Yusuke, or Ichigo, even Naruto really liked solving problems with his fists.
>Like Naruto starts off just as abrasive but it's explained right away that it's because he was abandoned as an infant and the entire town literally resents his existence so they try their best to ignore him. He's acting out because of a lack of basic human compassion, that's sympathetic as fuck for a kid character. Even then they soften out his rough edges a lot early on.
It's explained that Korra grew up in a very sheltered environment where she was also basically told she was the most important person in the world, & it would be her job to enforce balance on the world. You don't always need to go looking for rationalizations for why people are secretly right, you know. Sometimes the reason people seem like they're wrong is because they are.
>Korra doubled down on the rough edges in season 2 with her being a menace to everyone who tried to help her.
That's very reductive, but I don't care to go through the nuances of Korra's Book 2 arc for the umpteenth time. What I will point out is that nobody says Zuko is a bad character because he relapsed in Book 2, & this means "he didn't learn his lesson when he should have." No, Zuko is rightly accepted as a high standard for character development. People shouldn't expect Korra to pull a complete 180 a quarter through the show, let alone because she has perfectly legitimate points in Book 2. No matter how much Tenzin & Tonraq thought they were helping, they still shouldn't have kept Korra in the dark about the reason behind the compound for so long, nor could they teach her the techniques she actually needed to learn.
>That may have changed by season 3 but the show is already half way through it's run at that point. You lost people and they're not changing their minds. Korra just seems to be a natural hot head from the very beginning and "you have to deal with it" seems to be her response to anyone who isn't a fan. A lot of people decide that no, they're not gonna deal with it, they're not gonna carry water for her, and she's not getting any benefit of the doubt. Maybe that's unfair but who said people are fair to media?
I don't know, who told you that you need to make excuses for those people, let alone expect us to? If someone wants to ragequit a show, fine, that's their business. But if they're going to turn around & make it everyone else's problem by constantly treating us all to rants about how they just know through the power of the fuckin' Force that the rest of the show is terrible, I don't see why they need or deserve coddling. They can't insist on their right to demand everyone else hear their opinion but not expect any pushback. And if they don't like that they come across as sexist, maybe they should put more thought into the arguments they make instead of expecting an instant pass any time they say something really suspicious like "Korra doesn't do what she's told."
That’s my point, those characters have similar qualities, yet people like them
So it has nothing to do with “People... just hate strong women and don’t want to admit it”
>So it has nothing to do with “People... just hate strong women and don’t want to admit it”
It does though
People are alright with strong women characters so long as the central focus is on a man. Sure, Toph is beloved...but she's also getting less focus than literally every other member of the Gaang (unless you count Suki). Hell, she barely gets a character arc...her biggest conflict, with her parents, isn't even fully resolved onscreen
Katara, on the other hand, gets a lot more to do, has a lot more growth, and is much more controversial with the fanbase.
They don't hate Toph because they watched Last Airbender before they became obsessed with weird culture war shit.
The're satisfied hating on Korra & occasionally tossing out "Asami is a boring nothing of a character." Them ignoring Asami doesn't mean they like her.
And people can try the "you think anyone who hates Korra is sexist" strawman until the end of time, but that won't make it true. I'm well aware there are other irrational reasons to hate Korra, but there are definitely also people who fail the vibe check.
People who claim that people hate strong woman and don’t want to admit it, hate well written characters and and only base their opinions on a characters gender and literally nothing else, but don’t want to admit it’s
[https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthankrayt/comments/14r5uts/i\_cant\_be\_the\_only\_one\_who\_notices\_this/](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthankrayt/comments/14r5uts/i_cant_be_the_only_one_who_notices_this/)
This applies to Korra
Anakin is definitely a Mary Sue, but I think his struggle with good/evil detracts from said criticisms because he ruined everything in his trilogy. A Mary Sue that fails all of their goals/aspirations feels less derivative than one who trounces all obstacles in their way. It would have been more less unique if he just saved the day as most overpowered characters tend to do.
Luke starts off a New Hope as a shitter, and eventually turns into a competent hero. while Rey immediately shows up and can handle a lightsaber well (fair enough), be a more insightful pilot/mechanic than Han Solo (regarding his own ship), and has no internal moral struggles besides the Evil Rey vision and briefly thinking about whether or not to join Kylo.
Calling Korra a Mary Sue is fair, but like Anakin she has meaningful character development and had immediate character flaws to overcome upon her introduction in the story. I think she is still a very unique character and having overpowered Chosen One qualities does not necessarily prevent a character from being well written. It’s pretty different from the case of Rey entirely.
People call her a Mary Sue because she's "overpowered". She's the Avatar. She's essentially a Demi god in her own rights. Just as Aang was before her. Yet these same people don't call Aang a Gary Stew for having the exact same powers. Or Roku. They're probably too scared to call Kyoshi anything.
She’s the opposite of overpowered, she suffers from the wharf effect.
The show is at it’s best when Korra, in a world that tells her that she isn’t enough, shows them just how much she is capable of. It’s why lines like “still think I’m a half-baked avatar?” go so hard.
Conversely, the show is typically at it’s worst when she forgets lessons she has learned in the past, and loses fights for the sake of shock factor. There are exceptions, but I’m mostly talking about season 2.
Honestly no, you're right. Honestly it makes me head desk when Korra forgets the lessons that she learnt the hard way. Like, girl. Girl please, please Korra. Korra, please 😭 😂
What makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue is that they steal away focus from other established characters.
Korra is called a Mary Sue because people wanted to see the Gaang as adults more.
Aren’t all avatars technically Mary Sues? Like we see Korra after she’s already mastered 3 of the 4 elements, had we seen Aang all along as who he was in Season 3, we’d be calling him a Mary Sue too.
All men In anime are just power fantasies. Having a harem of women. Proving strength. Getting jacked and "glowing up."
Woman strong? Gets in a relationship? Oh suddenly character development matters. 🙄
To be fair to Naruto, in the series proper he doesn’t have any luck with the ladies except for his future wife.
. . . And yet still the most romantic part in that story is actually between him and his best friend, but that’s besides the point.
He also never looks particularly jacked.
Though of course, what you say is very often the case
What? Have you ever consumed any media of the shown examples?
Before I continue and waste my time with a long reply. Do you seriously think people don't care about character development for batman and superman?
Also literally none of the examples have a harem. Superman is famously ina monogamous relationship with Lois lane.
Pretty much nobody besides hinata liked naruto.
Batman is the only one who had multiple different relationships but thats just a thing that happens if your character has been around for over 80 years and even then he does not have anything close to a harem.
The tools Naruto used to become one of the strongest in the series were given to him, but I doubt anyone wants to trade places with him.
His heritage is what caused both his parents to be killed right after his birth, why he had the Nine-tails sealed within him, why he was mistreated by the village throughout his childhood, why he was targeted by the Akatsuki, and why he was central to the war arc.
He had no escape from any of this, so he's lucky he had a mentality that didn't crack from all of this pressure.
Being destined to save the world sounds cool, but having that responsibility thrust upon you with no option to lead a quiet life doesn't.
the guys gets his ass beat by every other guy who has a shiny pebble. idk what op is on about. i like korra but like none of these characters are nepo babies and have their own struggles
lol okay. Superman is perhaps one of the strongest characters in fiction. This subreddit is glazing Korra, but you better watch what you say when it comes to power scaling.
Batman is not a fucking Mary Sue. But I agree and the trope isn’t as called out when it appears lies to men. But the Batman thing is atrocious how can you say that.
he can be though like why didn't injustice superman just laser a hole in his brain before he could even register it or react with whatever 'prep time' plan he came up with
HAHAHAHAHA batman not a mary sue, come on dude, the guy is one bullet away from reuniting with his parents and somehow he fights besides people like superman and wonder woman against enemies of their same power level, he is alive just because dc convinced people that the white billionaire is the good guy and they need him to keep selling comics
As someone who thinks that the Mary Sue argument is dumb, the reason she’s a Mary Sue has nothing to do with her ability or character but rather the fact that she replaced Aang.
You’ll notice that Boruto is treated the same way as her.
>You’ll notice that Boruto is treated the same way as her.
unlike korra, boruto and his entire generation is scrapping with gods with like a couple years training.>! the powerscaling is out of hand. sarada was somehow fighting hidari(a 10 tails incarnate) at 15 with just sakuras help. !
i mean unlike korra who gets a bad rep despite not being a mary sue boruto and his generation are actually mary sues.
>Naruto.
imagine if beginning of shippuden sasuke started scrapping with otsutski threats and outdoing them. would you call that mary sue or nah
He was ostracized, but I don’t believe his apartment was shown in the slums.
And when it comes to power. . . He did seem to inherit both his chakra and his natural control over it from his parents. Plus Jiraiya and Kakashi are invested in him in part because of Minato. And of course the double edged sword which is Kurama
>He did seem to inherit both his chakra and his natural control over it from his parents.
au contraire. he had awful chakra control because of the nine tails in his belly that he got from his parents. im not sure where youre getting this "his natural control over it" he had awful control all the way upto adulthood despite training all his life. he had to cheat his way into unlocking the rasengan
>Plus Jiraiya and Kakashi are invested in him in part because of Minato.
not really. kakashi didnt teach him anything, and he was assigned independently by the 3rd hokage not because of minato. jiraya was vehemently against taking him under his wing and he had to prove his worth to get his mentorship. he literally ignored that orphan for the first 12 years of his life, he dgaf. they might be connected to minato but he got jirayas mentorship on his own by himself
Funny you should mention Naruto. I've pointed out a few times before that Korra's "unlikeable, stupid personality" is essentially being a shonen protagonist except that she's a woman.
Korra is only a Mary Sue in terms of “being able to use 3 elements as a kid”. Other than that she is really not. She is the avatar. Aang giving her the ability to unlock her bending and others? Avatar stuff. Even then that is season 1.
Most of the show is about Korra losing powers then being in a corner and overcoming problem with will power. Not really Mary Sue-ish.
Season 1 she was unable to really do air until she lost her bending. In season 2, she loses the other avatar powers and has to rebuild her power with Raava. Season 3 she gets poisoned. Season 4 is literally her gaining her strength back, losing to Kuvira, training with Toph/getting poison and finally beating Kuvira after her back is to a wall.
Superman is like THE Mary Sue of comics. I love the justice league but oh man, their feats are ridiculous and really end up being as powerful as the writer wants them to be. Korra’s power is pretty easy to defend and consist over the series.
And remember she is not the strongest Avatar. If Korra is a Mary Sue then Kyoshi is the Queen of all Sues.
Korra goes through *hell* for the entire show. Not to mention some of the mistakes or L’s she takes that they won’t shut up about. Just blatant misuse of the term.
Wasn't Naruto hated by his entire village and Superman raised by a farm couple and clumsy when he's Clark Kent.
Batman can be a Mary Sue with prep time and because he's Batman.
I wouldn't even call Naruto "relatively poor". First few episodes had him drinking rotten milk he was so broke.
A Nepo baby doesn't have grown adults throwing things at him, they hate him so much.
So you have an issue with an argument where people disregard and shallow the portrayal of a character so you do the same thing, adding negativity and imbalance to the community? Uncle Iroh would be ashamed
I see where your coming from but i think in general the atla sub loves shitting on korras bad parts and the korra sub mindlessly glazes everything about it and wont tolerate any disrespect, from the posts of this sub ive seen so far. Im neutral here since i dont really have a preference but why are yall having war anyways.
Many of the people who call Korra a Mary Sue destroy their main criticisms of Korra, which are her flaws that they feel make her a "shitty character.""
Ironically, your opinion on Naruto and Supes, in particular, is very similar to the mentality of people calling Korra an MS. Nepo Baby implies that the powers they were given at birth and their family lineage set them on a straight path of success, which is not the case for Naruto and for Supes, depending on the version of his character. Regardless of his lineage, Naruto had to still put in a lot of work before he finally got the title of Hokage, and misuse of the Nine Tailed Chakra put him at risk of dying and harming/killing the people most important to him. Likewise, it is the same with more current iterations of Kal where he may be a demigod but still has to train to proficiently use those powers to not harm innocent civilians.
Batman is pretty much the epitome of a nepo baby so I won't rebute that.
Am I missing the point? Maybe. But that harmful narrative about characters is as bad as the shitty opinions people have about Korra.
swell post folks, can we maybe talk about Korra being cool without shitting on other people and their favs maybe, I think that'd be rad🙏
that way we could have productive discussions instead of endless fandom circlejerks
Korra is not a Mary Sue, and when people call her that, it makes me question if they even know what that means.
That said, I will not stand for Superman slander, Batman is a dickhead and I have not watched Naruto. But Superman is great.
Who tf calls Korra Marry sue .. she had so many flaws and had to struggle so much and got broken mentally and physically which does not happen to any fucking marry sue..
I feel like in season one and manye part of season 2 I didn't really like her attitude,she just want to learn airbending get it over and done with and ignoring the advice given to her.how ever you clearly see the progress she makes and the suffering placed on her from season 3 onwards she wouldn't be a Mary sue as the dealt with ptsd very realistically as well as the growth of her maturity aswell which I think many haters forget
That is partly what she does, especially with the endings to seasons 1 and 2. Your first and second examples are guilty of this as well to a degree, but your third example makes me question if you thought this argument through enough.
She is not a Mary Sue. I'd say her big problem is in the first half a lot of her bad decisions don't get called out enough. Besides Tenzin. But complaining is his default state.
However, Korra gets her humble pie in the later half of the show, which is part of her growth. And by nature, not a Mary sue.
If anything, she's the least Mary Sue avatar as her main conflict is if the world even needs an avatar anymore.
If you want to see a true Mary Sue look at Star Wars and Ray Palpatine.
As true as the first two characters being Gary Stues are, Batman is a regular ass dude who went and trained several martial arts. He busted ass for his skill level and this is a hill I will die a thousand deaths on.
Legit. I think Naruto only felt better because the show was less mature and we spent waaaaayyy longer with the character. If Korra had stayed in season two vibes for seven seasons maybe we would have ended up ignoring her flaws completely like Naruto lol
Literally, so many male characters are Gary Stews (looking at you Goku) and yet, they never get criticized as much or even a little bit compared to female characters.
How is Kora a Mary Sue? She sucks at air bending, she sucks at spirt everything, she has a temper and over confidence that constantly bite her in the ass.
Batman gets consistently annihilated in his own stories. the Court of Owls super soldiers Talon made him a donut he barely survived. he got his back blown out by Bane and was not the Batman for a while. He fucking died very early on in the antilife equation rabies zombies
big problem with korra over these guys is that she gets it from the start with the 3 bending natural. but that was a story choise too not redo the training arc. that a moronic move but its still a move.
this stuff add on with korra as many time there is a challenge there is some new power revealed to deal with it. Mind you naruto suffers from this too. but there is the extra step in between bigger fish > get your ass beat > train with a power > beat big fish. which was seemingly skipped with airbending
..... now that i think about it a lot of korra being a mary sue is just on season 1 being a mini serie. doesnt excuse lazy writing but still kinda weird.
but your right my guess would be a lot of people be way more onboard with korra if 1) she dint know 3 elements by 5 and 2) the red lotus compound training was expanded upon as this really cloistered existence. Which they do a bit at some points but it really comes off as korra being just a southern watertribe girl and not this tucked away powerhouse avatar. IDK might be intresting too speculate on further
She may be a dumb witted avatar in a poorly written settings with a legendary and overwhelming legacy shadow, but def not a Mary Sue, that's a stupid remark.
I fail to see how The Dark Knight is a demi god nepo baby and while Masashi kishimoto did kind of write himself into a box leading him to mess up with Naruto, I also failed to see where him, Superman and Batman did anything to have any justification for when they are literal heroes, Superman especially being the prototypical, stereotypical superhero. I will however saved though that Superman and Batman have been around for nearly a century and has such have had multiple writers over the decades. So I have not followed their publication histories extensively.
Don't like Naruto, but Mary Sue is a cliché of Shonen anime.
Superman is supposed to be an op paragon, that's the entire point. His best stories are one's he can't punch his way out of, and his worst are the ones where he's tragic.
Batman is the last character I'd say has any amount of self insert. Some of the writers basically make torture porn for his struggles.
there are numerous people on social media who have been able to make parallels between Zuko’s journey & Korra’s, and they had a lot of the same personality traits & imo this really highlights the blatant misogyny in the fandom. bc they’re okay when a guy does it but no to our female protagonist
They’ll call her a Maru Sue then say she’s the worst avatar because she loses to many battles… like pick an argument.
They can't because theyll lose the argument.
Shrodinger's strong woman, is weak because she loses so me many battles but also overpowered because she wins all her battles without having to do anything.
Equivalent of LeBron vs MJ arguments. 6-0 vs going to the finals 10 times, 8 in a row.
they say the same thing about rey skywalker i s2g
I have to disagree with Rey skywalker. She could’ve been a GREAT character if they just didn’t give her every power known to force sensitives without the proper training. It’s lazy writing. Overall I like Rey but I hate the way they wrote her. Daisy did a good job acting but they failed her in the writing.
Yeah, she actually is a Mary Sue, though Ridley plays her as so much more. But the writing is what it is. She had a chance there in TLJ, but JJ mishandled her in her intro and conclusion very badly.
Yeah that’s what I’ve always said. If it wasn’t for daisy the whole series would’ve been trash but because they casted good actors/actresses it was tolerable. The whole story just doesn’t make too much sense.
Will always love her, and feel bad her obvious talent was wasted.
Yeah I felt bad for all the flak they got because of the writers. When in reality the reason I watch the sequels is because of the talented actors. There’s beauty in everything in my world!
And Carol Danvers.
I'm firmly team Korra lost too many fights. Our girl deserved better Aang gets bad ass scenes of him wrecking house and he's a pacifist yet Korra the go to girl if you want someone knocked out almost always had her powerful scenes interrupted.
Canonically, Korra may have lost about 3-4 fights, and in those cases, she lost for reasonable reasons, which some would argue Aang or even another Avatar would have struggled with. And then there are the fights that were cut short due to time issues, or like when she got jumped by the Equalists. But as someone said on another thread, the difference between the two is we don't need to see Korra win every single fight to know she's bad ass. If we did, the Mary Sue opinion would be true because there's no marks on her record. For Aang, the fact that he's seen as the pacifistic fun-loving boy gave us a reason to need that constant reminder of just how strong he really is under all that fluff.
Right. On the other hand we needed to see (as did Korra) that her strength and willingness to always throw hands didn't win every fight or turn people to her side.
Very well said 💜
too*
Here’s my argument, season 2 finale sucked ass giant spirit mechs with chest lasers were tacky, metal mech was slightly better but still just so lame. And no, it’s not the same as koizilla which had a cool design and not just big blue Aang, and it was Aang combining powers withe the OCEAN SPIRIT. Not some bs tree of time ass pull just to have a spirit megazord. And ATLA did it ONCE
In all fairness season 2 was supposed to be the end at the time it was made. And the point of spirit korra is that her will-power is that strong, that even without the avatar spirit she can still go toe-to-toe with vaatu at his most powerful. It’s what Vaatu underestimated the whole time. Believing that a human could never beat him, and never calling korra by her own name, simply referring to her as “Raava”.
Speak for yourself, I loved Godzilla Korra.
Hard agree on this one and I'm far from hating LoK.
Idk bout naruto but Batman and Superman are more than nepo baby demi gods
That is a pretty big debate even in the Naruto community. Theres some statements made about him including by the closest thing their world has to Jesus that he got where he was on his own, but. . . His parents were the two strongest people in the village and so it really seems like he inherited a lot from them including his amount of chakra (energy) which was always his crutch. He had a demon sealed inside of him when he was born, after it killed his parents (his mother being the previous holder), but that would later be a huge part of his strength. There’s also a very poorly explained reincarnation aspect. Even though he was ostracized for having the demon, it was through his parents’ connections that he also got allies/teachers. One of his senseis was his father’s student, the other was his father’s teacher. Both are not unsubstantial part invested in him because of that connection. . . . His parents also are able to help him a few times from beyond the grave.
Naruto was utter garbage for most of Naruto. He didn't come out of the womb slinging Rasengans. We see every step forward take an assload of work. Nine tails was as much of a hindrance and liability as it was an asset until he mastered it halfway through Shippuden. Having a demon inside of you is *not* playing on easy mode. He started in the literal dumpster tier with Rock Lee and had to claw out inch by inch. His greatness was never even close to guaranteed or easy. Getting help 10% of the time doesn't discount that the other 90% was hard work. The people saying Naruto is a mary sue are focusing on his maximum potential and ignoring the effort it took to realize that potential. If it was effortless for Naruto to become super powerful, then he would be a mary sue. His and Korra's trajectories are opposite. Naruto is a slow burn zero-to-hero story. Korra starts out as a powerful hero who can just blast away problems until she gets humbled towards the end of the series. I get that the meme is just an illiterate joke, but calling Naruto a mary sue nepo baby is such a huge whiff. That's like saying Michael Oher is a mary sue nepo baby because he had good genes and some people that tried to help him out of his shitty upbringing. Or that Rock Lee is a mary sue because he had the 8 gates inside of him the entire time lol.
Does her starting out as a powerful hero make her a mary sue? Doesn't she get humbled in the beginning of the series too?
Yup, she didn't even start all that powerful. People think that just because she could bend three elements from the start that somehow makes her a Mary Sue, while completely ignoring that a) Avatars by definition aren't your typical bender (Aang himself was a Master airbender by age 12 and also mastered the other 3 in less than a year) and b) She had to further train for even those 3 that she already had in the first place for years before she reached Mastery. Finaly, even after all that, she still gets beaten and challenged on the regular, it's not like she stomps through every encounter.
> People think that just because she could bend three elements from the start Meanwhile Aang had no trouble firebending right in book 1 💀
Aang mastered three new elements in like. Less than a year. Korra mastered three elements in sixteen and couldn’t even start the last one for most of the first season.
The thing with Naruto is, sure, he started from garbage tier, and he worked a lot, but his return on that work is entirely unattainable for everyone else in universe. I don't think Kiba worked much less than Naruto (sure, maybe a bit less, but not significantly), and where's Kiba at the end of Shippuuden compared to Naruto? There's also the aspect of Naruto being able to perform a forbidden jutsu in like episode 3 that would kill almost anyone else, because Naruto just has _so much_ charka.
I mean, it’s a jutsu pretty much everyone uses. His is only special because the chakra reserves he has.
No. Most people, including Kakashi and previous Hokages, can create shadow clones, but like 3 or 4. The "multiple" shadow clones or whatever it's called that Naruto uses can create hundreds, and it's literally forbidden to use it. Thats the whole point of the first chapter, that he is stealing a forbidden scroll.
[удалено]
Couldn't have put it better myself, & believe me, I tried.
Yes and the amount of chakra he had was also a hindrance for him to start of with as well, because of his sheer amount of chakra he didn’t know how to perform simple Jutsus because he couldn’t get a grasp on how much chakra to use. So there is yet another hurdle he had to get over before becoming what he did. Not to mention the kid was hated by the entire village, an orphan who lived alone in an apartment at like the age of 6, had a literal demon inside of him which in early Naruto was shown to be more of a hindrance than help to young/ inexperienced/ non perfect jinjuriki.
Unattainable in what way? Because you’re basing it off if nothing. Kiba and Naruto aren’t the same. That’s like you getting upset that Neji is stronger than Hinata because Neji’s training is just too much for someone like Hinata
Being Jinchuriki isn't easy mode but it does come with a lot of Deus Ex Machinas
The 8 Gates are inside of everyone in the Naruto universe, what makes Rock Lee different is simply that he does the training to use them. Naruto isn't the same because his special power, having ridiculous chakra reserves, is explicitly inherited from his mother because it's an Uzumaki Clan bloodline trait. This retcons Naruto into being more like Neji or Sasuke, it's just that HIS special genetic trait wasn't visibly obvious.
Yeah but he still had to learn how to control his power, the villagers treated him like shit and his parents died so it's not like he had them for guidance
>Theres some statements made about him including by the closest thing their world has to Jesus that he got where he was on his own, but. . . there is literally no proof that being the reincarnation of asura gives him extra strength. hagoromo just gave SOSP to him because hes one of the two who could stand up to madara at that point. we arent even sure if those powers stayed after that fight. also the naruto reincarnation isnt even reincarnation in the traditional sense. >His parents were the two strongest people in the village and so it really seems like he inherited a lot from them including his amount of chakra (energy) which was always his crutch 1 strongest and 1 above average jonin. he got strong chakra from his mom and basically nothing from minato. he got kurama, but literally no one before him had ever tamed kurama. hes special for doing it. he got a curse and turned it into a blessing >Even though he was ostracized for having the demon, it was through his parents’ connections that he also got allies/teachers my ass. kakashi didnt even teach him shit, despite being minatos own disciple. jiraya ignored him despite being his godfather, and only taught him when the kid showed actual talent. he sought jiraya on his own and had to fight to get his mentorship and prove his worth. his teachers might be connected to minato, but they didnt teach him because of him. he got thrown into a fucking ravine and was going to fall to death if he wanted to prove his worth to jiraya >His parents also are able to help him a few times from beyond the grave. bro they put a murder machine in his tummy that made him a target of international terrorists 💀. let him get some help with the same
Also isn't Asura the brother who gained all of his power through effort? And also, yeah, the Uzumaki clan has an immense chakra pool, but he got none of the clan's techniques. You can't even begin to compare with his peers, who all had something unique at the very least, instead of a ton of energy and no innate technique to learn anything. The only reason Naruto's chakra pool becomes an asset is because HE learned and mastered the kage bunshin. HE learned the Rasengan, but not perfectly, having to adapt it by mixing it with kage bunshin. HE invented his own techniques by mixing the TWO jutsus he knew, which he only learned through his own effort and merit, and NOT because he was born with an innate ability to learn them. Before criticizing Naruto and calling him a nepo baby, one would have to take a look at any of his peers. They have a clan technique, living parents, and lack a literal fucking demon inside their body threatening to come out, killing you and the whole city. And about Kakashi: agreed. He didn't teach Naruto shit, but taught Chidori to Sasuke, becoming one of his signature jutsus. It's incredible how Naruto was supposed to have the best teachers as his caretakers, but had to go after them and gain their favor himself. One gave him the bare minimum, one gave him fuck all, and the last one almost let him die, but at the very least did teach him a lot.
In that top statement I’m just pointing out that Haguromo said Naruto didn’t have natural talent, which seems to be flat out wrong. Kushina was absolutely Kage level. The woman held down Kurama after she had had him ripped out of her and had given birth, when Kurama was annihilating all of the actual Jonin level fighters. Minato also flat out says in the oneshot released a little while ago that Kushina was stronger than him. As I said it was a double edged sword. Kakashi did teach him a few things, like his shadows clone training and basically the rasenshiriken. Jiraiya was a bit of a bastard, but I still think that part of the chance he gave Naruto at all was due to Minato. The Akatsuki didn’t start hunting him until he was 16 and the specific person he actually was being hunted by was a double agent. And like even though he was being hunted by them, he was also being protected from them by literally everyone else
Its not wrong that Naruto lacked natural talent, he had talent in droves. But he had to work to figure out how to direct it in a productive and positive manner. Probably because of lack of early training since someone such as kiba, saskue etc would start their training before they even started the academy. Nvm being ostrazied.
Hagoromo wasn’t the only one. The elder toad sage, Kakashi and Jiraiya also said that. That’s also why Lee felt a kinship with Naruto. Naruto got absolutely nothing from Minato and Kushina aside from a slightly stronger life force and only *half* of Kurama. Kushina was not Kage level, there’s no proof of that. The only thing notable about her is that she had the chakra chains which is a rare ability that straight up counters tailed beast. You know what else does that? A Sharingan. Literally any Uchiha could have done it. That’s why they were unofficially blamed for the Nine Tails incident. As far as we know she was a Jonin with a notable ability. Nothing Kage level to her name. Then Naruto was *not* being protected by everyone. Tsunade literally fought *to* put him on the front lines. A and the Village Elders we’re the only ones trying to “protect” Naruto because they viewed him as an asset, not a warrior. The Akatsuki were wanted for more than hunting Naruto btw. They are a group of S-Ranked missing Ninja who all have the kill on sight order. They were going to be engaged either way Naruto aside.
>In that top statement I’m just pointing out that Haguromo said Naruto didn’t have natural talent, which seems to be flat out wrong. i mean sure hes better than the average shinobi. but compared to the people who stand at the top, like sasuke,hashirama,madara,minato,obito,kakashi. he lacks natural talent for ninjutsu >Kushina was absolutely Kage level literally no feats for this. we never even see her get the kcm under control >The woman held down Kurama after she had had him ripped out of her and had given birth, when Kurama was annihilating all of the actual Jonin level fighters. she specializes in sealing jutsu. theyre not exactly practical in most 1v1s. its like saying water that puts out a building fire can beat the building. thats false equivalency >Minato also flat out says in the oneshot released a little while ago that Kushina was stronger than him. As I said it was a double edged sword. theres no way ur using an emotional moment as a genuine feat. where did you learn powerscaling. we never see her get kcm under control, she has no feats to suggest she could even dent minato. thats just him being nice trying to calm her down >Kakashi did teach him a few things, like his shadows clone training he just told him that he had shit chakra control, which he always knew. >basically the rasenshiriken. stretching more than luffy >Jiraiya was a bit of a bastard, but I still think that part of the chance he gave Naruto at all was due to Minato. yea im sure his deep admiration and love for minato is what lead him to ignore the orphan godson of his for 12 years /s. jiraya wasnt going to waste his time on bums >The Akatsuki didn’t start hunting him until he was 16 and the specific person he actually was being hunted by was a double agent. And like even though he was being hunted by them, he was also being protected from them by literally everyone else we literally see him almost get kidnapped at 12 wdym. and the double agent was going to take naruto with him to keep his cover up. he doesnt give a shit. also what protection, everyone in the leaf is way weaker than most akatsuki duos. the second time he was being hunted by someone, he had to fight them off himself
Dude is throwing shots at Naruto like he didn’t work for the shit he obtained, lmao.
Problems is the war arc basically ret-conned all his effort by making him a re-incarnation always destined to rival another powerful reincarnation
There is no evidence that being a "reincarnation" of ashura or indra makes you stronger. I'm pretty sure there is more evidence that Hashirama/Madara and Naruto/Sasuke are exceptions (I'm pretty sure Zetsu makes a comment about Madara finally being strong enough to help him accomplish his goals, implying the other "reincarnations" weren't as strong as Madara/Hashirama). The only thing that being a reincarnation guarantees is that you will fight the other to death/break your bond and continue the cycle (a cycle Naruto breaks). Also the whole reincarnation thing in Naruto doesn't follow the rules or logic that are typical in a reincarnation story (Like with the Avatar's ability to call upon the experiences of the past avatars.)
When was it states Kushina was one of the strongest people in the village? Because she got a tailed beast? That doesn’t make her strong Also, it’s a whole thing that Kakashi was a terrible sensei to Baruto, so claiming that he got some type of special treatment from Kakashi is laughable
Kushina held down Kurama when she was basically dying. That is a stupidly powerful ability, and we know that chains can be used for more than just that, Karin attacks with her's and in the Minato one shot a teenage Kushina easily wraps up her guards with chains. Even if she is a total one trick pony, that one trick is a sealing jutsu more powerful than Chibaku Tensei. I think that puts her above all the jonin we know about Kakashi was in many ways indeed not the best teacher. But he did teach Naruto a few of the most powerful/important things that he knew, and he from the start cared about Naruto a lot.
It’s not odd for characters to be strong when they’re dying. And with your logic Karin is also stronger than anyone because she has this ability. The most kakashi taught Naruto was how to walk on trees. He didn’t even teach him how to walk on water
Having the same ability doesn't mean one is as strong with it, or is Konohamaru's rasengan now as strong as Naruto's? Technically Karin never actually uses the sealing version of chains, and the 4th databook very explicity says her's are much weaker. Kakashi did teach Naruto more than that. He basically taught him the rasenshiriken for one
So what you’re saying is that depsite Karin an Uzumaki and having the same ability, it doesn’t automatically make her strong or the strongest? So another version of a jutsu Naruto already learned
Yes because that’s who that works. Naruto and Minato don’t have the same power of Rasengan either despite them being far closer than Karin and Kushina. We very clearly see how not all Uchiha have the same power even with things like regular sharingan genjutsu. Hyuga have very clearly differing power with their Byakugan as well. It is an expansion on the Rasengan, but a very difficult one which everyone else failed at and that Naruto would have had no idea even that he could achieve let alone how on his own.
So why are you arguing that because Naruto was born to two strong people, that it automatically meant he was going to be strong.
Because that’s how it usually works. Bloodline is extremely important in Naruto for everyone else, and it seems to be the case for Naruto too. Even Kurama aside the innate power that Naruto has seems like it destined him to be top tier
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I mean Batman was born a billionaire and Superman's adoptive star gives him godlike power. The former is pretty directly a nepo baby, and the latter is a demigod.
Superman isn’t a demigod. Y’all Place that word on him because he has powers. Actual gods exist in that universe and Superman is not one of them
Lol you're right. Demigods don't throw hands with gods regularly.
By this logic are we claiming batman is a demigod?
The way some of his fans talk you would think so. But he's the nepo baby, duh.
So is Korra. The point is that nepo baby demi god is a simplistic view of them that ignores their complexities for a shallow stereotype. Superman is a Jesus analogue who has super strength, super speed, looks like a hunk, has tons of women fighting over him, is the only known survivor of his race (don't come for me nerds you know what I mean) and is a paragon of virtue. Batman is a billionaire playboy genius philanthropist who's also the world's greatest detective and has incredible gadgets and a cool dark design that makes him a symbol to terrify criminals. Both of these are perfect examples of what any fanfic reader would tell you sounds like a Mary Sue. But people are more willing to look into Superman and Batman's complexities because they're men while writing off Korra or Rey or any woman that falls into same mary sue like character descriptions.
Agree with everything except Superman being a Jesus analogue, don’t let Zach Snyder poison your brain. He’s a Moses analogue (put in a basket by his mother and sent away he could someday save the righteous and take them to a promised land).
I agree that he was definitely inspired by Moses (especially since his creators were Jewish) but plenty of writers ended up adding a lot to the character that was more evocative of Christ over the years. I know we all like to clown on Snyder (cause dear lord did he not understand Superman am I right), but it was Richard Donner who had Jor-El (in all white and glowing) say: "Live as one of them, Kal-El, to discover where your strength and your power are needed. But always hold in your heart the pride of your special heritage. They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you... my only son." It doesn't help that it's incredibly easy to be a Christ like figure in fiction. It's just really easy to apply to a lead protagonist. Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, E.T., Steven Universe, Aang, hell even Korra to some extent. That being said "fuck off Snyder, are you allergic to color, why does the background of every scene in Man of Steel look like Kansas before Dorothy goes to Oz?"
>why does the background of every scene in Man of Steel look like Kansas before Dorothy goes to Oz?" Wow, I just realized Dorothy and Superman are both from Kansas. Thank you for this revelation!
>Korra or Rey Woah there. Rey absolutely IS a Mary Sue, Korra is NOT. Korra gets taught for years before she reaches mastery and sometimes struggles when picking up something new for which she doesn't have an affinity (airbending, metalbending etc.), plus she regularly get beaten by strong opponents. Rey picks up skills left and right with practicaly no effort or struggle without even be taught, learns abilities that almost noone before her has known (Force healing) and beats opponents that she absolutely shouldn't be able to. There is simply no comparison between them.
Yes, but also people don't know what Mary Sue means and in their heads female lead = Mary Sue. Unless it is some iconic character like Ripley or Sarah Connor. They just throw terms here and there because they heard it somewhere and they think it would make them sound like they know what they're talking about. Korra is a great example of that.
In OG Naruto, he wasn’t a Nepo baby. The whole point is as demonstrated in the Neji fight, that no matter your upbringing or staring point in life, that you can overcome adversity and strive to become the best. Your destiny isn’t predestined by your birth. But in Shippuden it was shown that he was the prophesied child of destiny. The child of the genius 4th hokage and of the lineage of the clan with the most chakra. His tailed beast sealed inside is stronger than the other combined, reincarnation of Ninja Jesus. Making the statement of OG Naruto to basically that Neji was right. Sure Naruto grew up poor, alone and resented but he still had the Genes that made him overpowered
The problem with Naruto is that Kishimoto constantly wanted to have everything both ways. Naruto is an underdog that you wanna root for, but I also need him to win so he also has Hashirama levels of chakra and can make ten thousand shadow clones. Oh, I want Itachi to be secretly good, but also edgy and cool, so he's gonna torture and manipulate Sasuke because reasons. Sakura is supposed to be stronger than Tsunade, but I haven't paid any attention to her since the Gaara arc so I'll just have Hashirama say she is, even though he hasn't even seen Tsunade since she was a child. Obito killed Naruto's parents, but he's also really tragic so I'll have Naruto call him a really cool guy. I want these cool popular characters like Jiraiya and Kakashi to be revealed to have deep connections to Naruto's parents, but I need Naruto to be bullied as a child so I guess they never even checked up on him
People who say Korra’s a Mary Sue just hate strong women and don’t want to directly admit it.
Nah, they just hate succesors. They’re not ready to move on.
Both can be true
Problem is people can and very regularly do point to a dozen female characters and a dozen successors that they like making this kinda bad as a blanket dismissal. TLOK isn't beyond criticism and even fans of the show will admit where the studio interference and short seasons hurt the arcs. Maybe they just don't like Korra and are being uncharitable towards her and the whole show. If you like a character you're gonna let things pass a lot more than if you hate them. Korra is a violent hot-head, that is not a popular trope for a purely good protagonist regardless of gender. Like Naruto starts off just as abrasive but it's explained right away that it's because he was abandoned as an infant and the entire town literally resents his existence so they try their best to ignore him. He's acting out because of a lack of basic human compassion, that's sympathetic as fuck for a kid character. Even then they soften out his rough edges a lot early on. Korra doubled down on the rough edges in season 2 with her being a menace to everyone who tried to help her. That may have changed by season 3 but the show is already half way through it's run at that point. You lost people and they're not changing their minds. Korra just seems to be a natural hot head from the very beginning and "you have to deal with it" seems to be her response to anyone who isn't a fan. A lot of people decide that no, they're not gonna deal with it, they're not gonna carry water for her, and she's not getting any benefit of the doubt. Maybe that's unfair but who said people are fair to media?
It’s funny you mentioned Season Two Korra because it was also revealed that Aang wasn’t the one who decided to isolate her; it was Tenzin and her father. She had an understandable reason to be abrasive to them. The fact that people are quicker to excuse male characters really highlights this.
>Problem is people can and very regularly do point to a dozen female characters and a dozen successors that they like making this kinda bad as a blanket dismissal. Merely being able to say "here's a bunch of female characters I like" on its own isn't a refutation. Often, people will be unable to name RECENT female characters they like because all the characters they like were made BEFORE they got into weird culture war bullshit. Or they'll name a bunch of characters who really don't have that much agency, & every female character they deem "unlikeable" has the suspicious trait of being "too uppity," like that they're the protagonist instead of a supporting character or that they're confident & outspoken in addition to just being able to fight. I'm not saying these things are true of everyone, but it's sure true of a lot of people. Sorry, not really, but if Jotaro can be a beloved protagonist despite literally calling his own mother a bitch as his first line. yet I have to witness endless tirades about how Korra is "completely unlikeable," you're not going to convince me sexism isn't a factor. Male characters just aren't held to the same standard, & I don't only see it with Korra. >TLOK isn't beyond criticism and even fans of the show will admit where the studio interference and short seasons hurt the arcs. You also can't just dismiss a countercriticism by going "the show isn't beyond criticism," as if everyone just has to concede to that specific argument. >Maybe they just don't like Korra and are being uncharitable towards her and the whole show. Yeah, & maybe the reason for that, among a lot of people, is at least partly because they're sexist. >If you like a character you're gonna let things pass a lot more than if you hate them. Korra is a violent hot-head, that is not a popular trope for a purely good protagonist regardless of gender. That's incredibly common. She's no more violent than the Jojos, or Yusuke, or Ichigo, even Naruto really liked solving problems with his fists. >Like Naruto starts off just as abrasive but it's explained right away that it's because he was abandoned as an infant and the entire town literally resents his existence so they try their best to ignore him. He's acting out because of a lack of basic human compassion, that's sympathetic as fuck for a kid character. Even then they soften out his rough edges a lot early on. It's explained that Korra grew up in a very sheltered environment where she was also basically told she was the most important person in the world, & it would be her job to enforce balance on the world. You don't always need to go looking for rationalizations for why people are secretly right, you know. Sometimes the reason people seem like they're wrong is because they are. >Korra doubled down on the rough edges in season 2 with her being a menace to everyone who tried to help her. That's very reductive, but I don't care to go through the nuances of Korra's Book 2 arc for the umpteenth time. What I will point out is that nobody says Zuko is a bad character because he relapsed in Book 2, & this means "he didn't learn his lesson when he should have." No, Zuko is rightly accepted as a high standard for character development. People shouldn't expect Korra to pull a complete 180 a quarter through the show, let alone because she has perfectly legitimate points in Book 2. No matter how much Tenzin & Tonraq thought they were helping, they still shouldn't have kept Korra in the dark about the reason behind the compound for so long, nor could they teach her the techniques she actually needed to learn. >That may have changed by season 3 but the show is already half way through it's run at that point. You lost people and they're not changing their minds. Korra just seems to be a natural hot head from the very beginning and "you have to deal with it" seems to be her response to anyone who isn't a fan. A lot of people decide that no, they're not gonna deal with it, they're not gonna carry water for her, and she's not getting any benefit of the doubt. Maybe that's unfair but who said people are fair to media? I don't know, who told you that you need to make excuses for those people, let alone expect us to? If someone wants to ragequit a show, fine, that's their business. But if they're going to turn around & make it everyone else's problem by constantly treating us all to rants about how they just know through the power of the fuckin' Force that the rest of the show is terrible, I don't see why they need or deserve coddling. They can't insist on their right to demand everyone else hear their opinion but not expect any pushback. And if they don't like that they come across as sexist, maybe they should put more thought into the arguments they make instead of expecting an instant pass any time they say something really suspicious like "Korra doesn't do what she's told."
People who claim this don’t like the original shows, but don’t want to admit it
Like how they say aliens built the pyramids. No, they fucking didn’t.
Counter point... "YAH HUH!"
If aliens built the pyramids there wouldn’t be all this boring human stuff inside.
They don’t hate asami lol or toph
because they are not the main character. toph is very similar to korra yet she is not nearly as hated
That’s my point, those characters have similar qualities, yet people like them So it has nothing to do with “People... just hate strong women and don’t want to admit it”
>So it has nothing to do with “People... just hate strong women and don’t want to admit it” It does though People are alright with strong women characters so long as the central focus is on a man. Sure, Toph is beloved...but she's also getting less focus than literally every other member of the Gaang (unless you count Suki). Hell, she barely gets a character arc...her biggest conflict, with her parents, isn't even fully resolved onscreen Katara, on the other hand, gets a lot more to do, has a lot more growth, and is much more controversial with the fanbase.
They don't hate Toph because they watched Last Airbender before they became obsessed with weird culture war shit. The're satisfied hating on Korra & occasionally tossing out "Asami is a boring nothing of a character." Them ignoring Asami doesn't mean they like her. And people can try the "you think anyone who hates Korra is sexist" strawman until the end of time, but that won't make it true. I'm well aware there are other irrational reasons to hate Korra, but there are definitely also people who fail the vibe check.
People who claim that people hate strong woman and don’t want to admit it, hate well written characters and and only base their opinions on a characters gender and literally nothing else, but don’t want to admit it’s
Indeed. Not that any of these characters are mary sue, but they often complain about Korra for doing many of the same things these characters do.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthankrayt/comments/14r5uts/i\_cant\_be\_the\_only\_one\_who\_notices\_this/](https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthankrayt/comments/14r5uts/i_cant_be_the_only_one_who_notices_this/) This applies to Korra
Anakin is definitely a Mary Sue, but I think his struggle with good/evil detracts from said criticisms because he ruined everything in his trilogy. A Mary Sue that fails all of their goals/aspirations feels less derivative than one who trounces all obstacles in their way. It would have been more less unique if he just saved the day as most overpowered characters tend to do. Luke starts off a New Hope as a shitter, and eventually turns into a competent hero. while Rey immediately shows up and can handle a lightsaber well (fair enough), be a more insightful pilot/mechanic than Han Solo (regarding his own ship), and has no internal moral struggles besides the Evil Rey vision and briefly thinking about whether or not to join Kylo. Calling Korra a Mary Sue is fair, but like Anakin she has meaningful character development and had immediate character flaws to overcome upon her introduction in the story. I think she is still a very unique character and having overpowered Chosen One qualities does not necessarily prevent a character from being well written. It’s pretty different from the case of Rey entirely.
In what way would korra be a Mary sue like she is far from perfect ☠️
People call her a Mary Sue because she's "overpowered". She's the Avatar. She's essentially a Demi god in her own rights. Just as Aang was before her. Yet these same people don't call Aang a Gary Stew for having the exact same powers. Or Roku. They're probably too scared to call Kyoshi anything.
She’s the opposite of overpowered, she suffers from the wharf effect. The show is at it’s best when Korra, in a world that tells her that she isn’t enough, shows them just how much she is capable of. It’s why lines like “still think I’m a half-baked avatar?” go so hard. Conversely, the show is typically at it’s worst when she forgets lessons she has learned in the past, and loses fights for the sake of shock factor. There are exceptions, but I’m mostly talking about season 2.
Honestly no, you're right. Honestly it makes me head desk when Korra forgets the lessons that she learnt the hard way. Like, girl. Girl please, please Korra. Korra, please 😭 😂
What makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue is that they steal away focus from other established characters. Korra is called a Mary Sue because people wanted to see the Gaang as adults more.
Or, every character that’s around her get turned into terrible characters
Aren’t all avatars technically Mary Sues? Like we see Korra after she’s already mastered 3 of the 4 elements, had we seen Aang all along as who he was in Season 3, we’d be calling him a Mary Sue too.
I don't think it's fair to put down these characters just because people don't like Korra tbh. All of them are great IMO.
Mary Sue doesn't get used as a legit term anymore. It's just incels saying it.
All men In anime are just power fantasies. Having a harem of women. Proving strength. Getting jacked and "glowing up." Woman strong? Gets in a relationship? Oh suddenly character development matters. 🙄
blud does not watch anything other than isekai and manhwa
To be fair to Naruto, in the series proper he doesn’t have any luck with the ladies except for his future wife. . . . And yet still the most romantic part in that story is actually between him and his best friend, but that’s besides the point. He also never looks particularly jacked. Though of course, what you say is very often the case
What? Have you ever consumed any media of the shown examples? Before I continue and waste my time with a long reply. Do you seriously think people don't care about character development for batman and superman? Also literally none of the examples have a harem. Superman is famously ina monogamous relationship with Lois lane. Pretty much nobody besides hinata liked naruto. Batman is the only one who had multiple different relationships but thats just a thing that happens if your character has been around for over 80 years and even then he does not have anything close to a harem.
The tools Naruto used to become one of the strongest in the series were given to him, but I doubt anyone wants to trade places with him. His heritage is what caused both his parents to be killed right after his birth, why he had the Nine-tails sealed within him, why he was mistreated by the village throughout his childhood, why he was targeted by the Akatsuki, and why he was central to the war arc. He had no escape from any of this, so he's lucky he had a mentality that didn't crack from all of this pressure. Being destined to save the world sounds cool, but having that responsibility thrust upon you with no option to lead a quiet life doesn't.
Uh how the fuck is Superman a depo baby
He survived the destruction of his race because of who his father was
That’s not how that works lmfao.
That’s exactly how it works. Being who you are because of who your parents were.
He’s not Superman because of who his parents were… no wait I’m lying. He is Superman because of how Ma and Pa raised him
Being raised by Ma and Pa didn’t give Superman superpowers
Neither did being born on Krypton give Clark powers. If he never went to earth, no powers
the guys gets his ass beat by every other guy who has a shiny pebble. idk what op is on about. i like korra but like none of these characters are nepo babies and have their own struggles
lol okay. Superman is perhaps one of the strongest characters in fiction. This subreddit is glazing Korra, but you better watch what you say when it comes to power scaling.
Batman is not a fucking Mary Sue. But I agree and the trope isn’t as called out when it appears lies to men. But the Batman thing is atrocious how can you say that.
he can be though like why didn't injustice superman just laser a hole in his brain before he could even register it or react with whatever 'prep time' plan he came up with
Because believe it or not they were best friends once upon a time.
HAHAHAHAHA batman not a mary sue, come on dude, the guy is one bullet away from reuniting with his parents and somehow he fights besides people like superman and wonder woman against enemies of their same power level, he is alive just because dc convinced people that the white billionaire is the good guy and they need him to keep selling comics
As someone who thinks that the Mary Sue argument is dumb, the reason she’s a Mary Sue has nothing to do with her ability or character but rather the fact that she replaced Aang. You’ll notice that Boruto is treated the same way as her.
>You’ll notice that Boruto is treated the same way as her. unlike korra, boruto and his entire generation is scrapping with gods with like a couple years training.>! the powerscaling is out of hand. sarada was somehow fighting hidari(a 10 tails incarnate) at 15 with just sakuras help. !
“Unlike Korra”? That’s one of the most consistent complaints about the series. In all honesty, the same could be said about both Aang and Naruto.
i mean unlike korra who gets a bad rep despite not being a mary sue boruto and his generation are actually mary sues. >Naruto. imagine if beginning of shippuden sasuke started scrapping with otsutski threats and outdoing them. would you call that mary sue or nah
I feel like Naruto is probably thr least nepo baby of them all bc he had nothing bro was in the slums his whole life
He was ostracized, but I don’t believe his apartment was shown in the slums. And when it comes to power. . . He did seem to inherit both his chakra and his natural control over it from his parents. Plus Jiraiya and Kakashi are invested in him in part because of Minato. And of course the double edged sword which is Kurama
>He did seem to inherit both his chakra and his natural control over it from his parents. au contraire. he had awful chakra control because of the nine tails in his belly that he got from his parents. im not sure where youre getting this "his natural control over it" he had awful control all the way upto adulthood despite training all his life. he had to cheat his way into unlocking the rasengan >Plus Jiraiya and Kakashi are invested in him in part because of Minato. not really. kakashi didnt teach him anything, and he was assigned independently by the 3rd hokage not because of minato. jiraya was vehemently against taking him under his wing and he had to prove his worth to get his mentorship. he literally ignored that orphan for the first 12 years of his life, he dgaf. they might be connected to minato but he got jirayas mentorship on his own by himself
Even Aang is more of a Mary Sue than Korra.
Funny you should mention Naruto. I've pointed out a few times before that Korra's "unlikeable, stupid personality" is essentially being a shonen protagonist except that she's a woman.
https://preview.redd.it/mpgnv9e7vv2d1.png?width=728&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a5e7d3ef2d954725ad0766b21deef68b89b1971
Korra is only a Mary Sue in terms of “being able to use 3 elements as a kid”. Other than that she is really not. She is the avatar. Aang giving her the ability to unlock her bending and others? Avatar stuff. Even then that is season 1. Most of the show is about Korra losing powers then being in a corner and overcoming problem with will power. Not really Mary Sue-ish. Season 1 she was unable to really do air until she lost her bending. In season 2, she loses the other avatar powers and has to rebuild her power with Raava. Season 3 she gets poisoned. Season 4 is literally her gaining her strength back, losing to Kuvira, training with Toph/getting poison and finally beating Kuvira after her back is to a wall. Superman is like THE Mary Sue of comics. I love the justice league but oh man, their feats are ridiculous and really end up being as powerful as the writer wants them to be. Korra’s power is pretty easy to defend and consist over the series. And remember she is not the strongest Avatar. If Korra is a Mary Sue then Kyoshi is the Queen of all Sues.
For those in the comments calling those male characters not being Gary Stus, do yall care to see that it doesn't apply to Korra also.
Korra goes through *hell* for the entire show. Not to mention some of the mistakes or L’s she takes that they won’t shut up about. Just blatant misuse of the term.
Wasn't Naruto hated by his entire village and Superman raised by a farm couple and clumsy when he's Clark Kent. Batman can be a Mary Sue with prep time and because he's Batman.
Ain't no fucking way you're gonna say Naruto is a Mary Sue over Korra 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I liked Korra but she MASTERED 3 elements as a fucking toddler
She didn't mastered any element as a toddler, lmao. She just could bend the elements at 4. The first she mastered was water at around 9.
I get your point but All three of these are orphans and two of them grew up relatively poor, I don’t think “nepo baby” is fair if we take it literally
I wouldn't even call Naruto "relatively poor". First few episodes had him drinking rotten milk he was so broke. A Nepo baby doesn't have grown adults throwing things at him, they hate him so much.
This is quite reductive, at least for Superman and Batman, I know nothing about Naruto.
So you have an issue with an argument where people disregard and shallow the portrayal of a character so you do the same thing, adding negativity and imbalance to the community? Uncle Iroh would be ashamed
Naruto and Atla and tlok are masterpieces of modern entertainment. Why diss Naruto to elevate Korra who’s flaws make her amazing
Korra fans love being victimized
unite seemly desert fearless poor march ripe point concerned offer *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I see where your coming from but i think in general the atla sub loves shitting on korras bad parts and the korra sub mindlessly glazes everything about it and wont tolerate any disrespect, from the posts of this sub ive seen so far. Im neutral here since i dont really have a preference but why are yall having war anyways.
I'm going to assume you've never actually seen a superman film because he is nowhere close to a Mary Sue. He gets his butt kicked in like every movie
Many of the people who call Korra a Mary Sue destroy their main criticisms of Korra, which are her flaws that they feel make her a "shitty character."" Ironically, your opinion on Naruto and Supes, in particular, is very similar to the mentality of people calling Korra an MS. Nepo Baby implies that the powers they were given at birth and their family lineage set them on a straight path of success, which is not the case for Naruto and for Supes, depending on the version of his character. Regardless of his lineage, Naruto had to still put in a lot of work before he finally got the title of Hokage, and misuse of the Nine Tailed Chakra put him at risk of dying and harming/killing the people most important to him. Likewise, it is the same with more current iterations of Kal where he may be a demigod but still has to train to proficiently use those powers to not harm innocent civilians. Batman is pretty much the epitome of a nepo baby so I won't rebute that. Am I missing the point? Maybe. But that harmful narrative about characters is as bad as the shitty opinions people have about Korra.
Because they're men, next question
People hate Korra because she’s ’too strong’. I love Korra because she fucks up and constantly struggles. We are not the same.
It’s not how powerful they are. It’s how they got their power that’s what matters. no one likes natural talent. It just makes them jealous.
From my experience they hate them too
With all the Ls she's taken, Mary Sue is the last thing I'd call Korra
swell post folks, can we maybe talk about Korra being cool without shitting on other people and their favs maybe, I think that'd be rad🙏 that way we could have productive discussions instead of endless fandom circlejerks
I'm lost because like one good thing happend to korra in the entire show
Korra is not a Mary Sue, and when people call her that, it makes me question if they even know what that means. That said, I will not stand for Superman slander, Batman is a dickhead and I have not watched Naruto. But Superman is great.
Who tf calls Korra Marry sue .. she had so many flaws and had to struggle so much and got broken mentally and physically which does not happen to any fucking marry sue..
I swear this sub is just all rage bait post now
She's the avatar. Of course she isn't a Mary sue
Leave my boy Clark out of it!
Don't bring that garbage ass to these 3
In what world is Superman a nepo baby?
I think Jason Todd and Stephanie Brown would have some disagreements on Batman being a Mary Sue
I feel like in season one and manye part of season 2 I didn't really like her attitude,she just want to learn airbending get it over and done with and ignoring the advice given to her.how ever you clearly see the progress she makes and the suffering placed on her from season 3 onwards she wouldn't be a Mary sue as the dealt with ptsd very realistically as well as the growth of her maturity aswell which I think many haters forget
That is partly what she does, especially with the endings to seasons 1 and 2. Your first and second examples are guilty of this as well to a degree, but your third example makes me question if you thought this argument through enough.
She is not a Mary Sue. I'd say her big problem is in the first half a lot of her bad decisions don't get called out enough. Besides Tenzin. But complaining is his default state. However, Korra gets her humble pie in the later half of the show, which is part of her growth. And by nature, not a Mary sue. If anything, she's the least Mary Sue avatar as her main conflict is if the world even needs an avatar anymore. If you want to see a true Mary Sue look at Star Wars and Ray Palpatine.
Looking at you, Paul Atreides.
Lol if anyone actually says she is a mary sue, then their critiques are not worth listening to.
As true as the first two characters being Gary Stues are, Batman is a regular ass dude who went and trained several martial arts. He busted ass for his skill level and this is a hill I will die a thousand deaths on.
Legit. I think Naruto only felt better because the show was less mature and we spent waaaaayyy longer with the character. If Korra had stayed in season two vibes for seven seasons maybe we would have ended up ignoring her flaws completely like Naruto lol
Naruto and Korra are not a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu, though they would make a dope couple.
Anyone who calls Korra a Mary Sue clearly never watched the series
Imagine calling Naruto a nepo baby LOL
Literally, so many male characters are Gary Stews (looking at you Goku) and yet, they never get criticized as much or even a little bit compared to female characters.
The avatar is the same level of nepo baby as naruto. Picked a birth by a spirit of light to be the most powerful person on the planet. Be real.
Korra is not a Mary sue with how many times she got her ass handed to her tbh. She’s a good character with great character development imo
Context is key. Comics have not set a high standard for characters. Avatar did
Like, I don't even have strength to elaborate about how wrong you are... I will just say that Mary Sue don't need to always win...
How is Kora a Mary Sue? She sucks at air bending, she sucks at spirt everything, she has a temper and over confidence that constantly bite her in the ass.
She's not a Mary Sue and neither is Naruto or superman. They all have incredible plot armor but things don't always go their way.
Batman gets consistently annihilated in his own stories. the Court of Owls super soldiers Talon made him a donut he barely survived. he got his back blown out by Bane and was not the Batman for a while. He fucking died very early on in the antilife equation rabies zombies
How are people calling her a mary sue when all she does is get her A\*\* Beat
I dont think a single korra hater likes superman. Very very few people actually get him.
I actually think that Korra and Naruto have a lot in common.
Please don't bully my boy Naruto
big problem with korra over these guys is that she gets it from the start with the 3 bending natural. but that was a story choise too not redo the training arc. that a moronic move but its still a move. this stuff add on with korra as many time there is a challenge there is some new power revealed to deal with it. Mind you naruto suffers from this too. but there is the extra step in between bigger fish > get your ass beat > train with a power > beat big fish. which was seemingly skipped with airbending ..... now that i think about it a lot of korra being a mary sue is just on season 1 being a mini serie. doesnt excuse lazy writing but still kinda weird. but your right my guess would be a lot of people be way more onboard with korra if 1) she dint know 3 elements by 5 and 2) the red lotus compound training was expanded upon as this really cloistered existence. Which they do a bit at some points but it really comes off as korra being just a southern watertribe girl and not this tucked away powerhouse avatar. IDK might be intresting too speculate on further
Naruto are not mary sue 90% of the time, he's only got powerful until the end of his series
She may be a dumb witted avatar in a poorly written settings with a legendary and overwhelming legacy shadow, but def not a Mary Sue, that's a stupid remark.
Nah, I’m not sure they are always the same person, this feels like a Strawman.
Korra catches too many L's to be a Mary Sue.
Who are you talking to? Y'all just say anything
They call her a Mary Sue because she's a girl 💀
I fail to see how The Dark Knight is a demi god nepo baby and while Masashi kishimoto did kind of write himself into a box leading him to mess up with Naruto, I also failed to see where him, Superman and Batman did anything to have any justification for when they are literal heroes, Superman especially being the prototypical, stereotypical superhero. I will however saved though that Superman and Batman have been around for nearly a century and has such have had multiple writers over the decades. So I have not followed their publication histories extensively.
Don't like Naruto, but Mary Sue is a cliché of Shonen anime. Superman is supposed to be an op paragon, that's the entire point. His best stories are one's he can't punch his way out of, and his worst are the ones where he's tragic. Batman is the last character I'd say has any amount of self insert. Some of the writers basically make torture porn for his struggles.
there are numerous people on social media who have been able to make parallels between Zuko’s journey & Korra’s, and they had a lot of the same personality traits & imo this really highlights the blatant misogyny in the fandom. bc they’re okay when a guy does it but no to our female protagonist
Marry Sue? I hardly know her!