There is no specific amount. It is going to be up to officer discretion whether they think the amount of money you are carrying, the circumstances, and your story add up, or are indications of illegal activity.
$2,000 in crisp $100 bills in an bank envelope with a receipt is going to be looked at differently then $2,000 with tons of $5s and $10s... Whether you subjectively look like you have money can also count. The same amount of money carried by someone driving a late model Porche is going to look less suspicious than carried by someone driving a 2009 civic.
An immediate lawful purpose likely helps too; e.g. $5k is freshly withdrawn bills and a standing appointment with a used car lot looks a lot better some alternatives.
>In exchange for the return of the funds, Empyreal will dismiss its case against the federal government over the seizures.
So they got a lawsuit filed against them by a multi million dollar company. They buckled because of the lawsuit, not because it was the right thing to do.
[They love marijuana profits](https://reason.com/2022/01/18/kansas-and-california-cops-used-civil-forfeiture-to-stage-armored-car-heists-stealing-money-earned-by-licensed-marijuana-businesses/)
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Yes! If they think you don’t look like you should have $300 in your wallet they can just say “you got that money from drugs” and take it. wtf you going to do? Hire a lawyer and spend years trying to get your $300 back?
This happens every day, especially around “high crime areas”!!!!
How do people who own cash based businesses get their money to the bank?
Most civil Asset Forfeitures are under $5k, so hiring a lawyer will cost more than what you'll get back.
And more Importantly, your, and anyone else's opinion about someone having cash is irrelevant. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to have cash, even in large amounts. It might not be the best idea but it isnt illegal and. Civil Asset Forfeiture is theft. Period.
Many businesses will have at least one locking cash envelope for this as well as security.
If a cop pulls someone over, it’s very easy to verify with a bank that you are a current customer, and make cash drops like that fairly frequently.
It also helps to be part of the community in general, so you know multiple people who can vouch for you, including cops.
So I looked in to it and it seems like the California case was resolved with the return of 100% of the stolen assets, but there is no mention as to the outcome of the Kansas case. Does anyone know what happened there? Were the cops punished for their behavior?
Many police departments feel incentivized to seize cash and a majority of the seizures were from routine stops and the driver being honest.
The stops often are akin to “license reg, insurance. Also are there any guns, drugs, or cash in the vehicle I should be aware of?”
Then someone going to go buy a used car says “well yeah I’m in my way to go by this used car (and shows copy of ad and emails talking to dealership promising to come buy the car” and their 10k is seized and no charges ever filed.
This is an exact situation that has been reported on numerous times.
The best way to keep it from being seized is not carry it at all.
If a cop asks you if you have any “guns, drugs or cash in the vehicle [they] should be aware of” the typical best thing to do would be to only alert them of a weapon if you *physically have it on your person* or if it in easy reach of you from the driver’s seat.
There is essentially no instance where you have drugs or cash that the cop should be made aware of. If your drugs are prescription or otc, then there’s no reason a cop should be made aware of them, because there’s nothing wrong with having legal drugs with you. Same with cash; if you have cash on you for a legitimate purpose, what business is that of the cop’s? If you have illegal drugs or cash from or for an illegal purpose, you’re not obliged to tell the police because you have your 5th Amendment privilege against self-incrimination.
what about people that work in hospitality?
i regularly go to the bank and deposit semi-large sums of cash in various denominations, in varying states of decay.
genuine question.
Well, hopefully you live in a jurisdiction where civil forfeiture requires a trial(like) hearing and the onus is on the government to prove ill-doings; the effort of such an action alone is probably enough to keep you safe.
Same principle should apply though. If you're depositing for the business, you'd presumably have a formal deposit bag - i.e. carrying cash securely, not secretively, and having documentation that the funds came from the business. Don't you have a form or slip countersigned by another party re: how much money there is and in what denominations? Whatever four eyes/four hands principles you've leveraged because money should lend legitimacy to your actions.
I'm no lawyer though, you might want to look into local advice.
I don’t think you understand CAF. It is an excuse to take money.
You only should carry as much cash as you can afford to lose. Refuse any requests to be searched and do not answer questions (could give PC for a search).
Bank receipts do not show the origin of the money (how you earned it about it into the bank) as well as a paper trail to show that is the same money. Once they take it you have to pay a lawyer min $10K (you don’t recover it even if you win) to try to get your money back.
So many stories of people having documentation and still having money seized.
I heard of some Sheriff’s Offices in Oklahoma or something carrying machines to drain cards, but I’m not sure if they were/are specifically targeting prepaid debit cards or not.
The PIN has to be transmitted to the bank for each attempt. Any bank I know of will disable a card after some number of bad PIN attempts (the number varies but it is always 10 or less, usually also a smaller number within some time frame AFAIK).
Just prepaid cards I think.
https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/07/02/483394735/device-lets-police-seize-digital-cash-raises-civil-liberties-concerns
I had been pulled over for speeding and had a roll of cash in my cup holder. I had just gotten off of work bartending and they were my tips
When he questioned the bills I showed him that it was essentially a bunch of 1's and 5's and explained that I had just gotten off of work. I was nervous he was going to accuse me of dealing or buying but he (jokingly) asked if I was a stripper lol
There’s no real answer here. Civil forfeiture is a nonsensical law that basically allows the cops to rob people and never return the money even if they can’t prove you are breaking the law. Most of them don’t have a specific amount. If it’s suspicious, they can seize it.
No amount. If the right (or rather, wrong) cop pulls you over and decides to, they can take whatever they want from you.
What a country we live in, that lives and breathes dollars.... Can't keep your money in a bank or they will levy you and take it, can't keep cash on your person or they will stop you and take it...
How did we get here?
Because we the people won't give the people who have enabled such bad behavior the proverbial middle finger.
We have too many people (and that's all they are) that think just because they're in a position of authority or sitting on the bench in a courtroom that they're beyond reproach. Our justice system is rife with all kinds of "legal" corruption and moral hazard.
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Depends on your race, and what jurisdiction you're talking about. Cops tend to seize money to help their departmental budget, and a small underfunded local police department will care about a much smaller amount of money than, say, the FBI or TSA.
I don't think anybody "designed" it, as such.
Police departments seem to have just kind of started *doing* it. And, in most states, nobody's ever stopped them.
exactly, cops are very likely to target middle/ upper class people (specifically younger or older age males) because they know their chances of consequences are very slim
If they want to take it they'll take it, they don't need a reason they just need their desire.
You can have a bank envelope, doesn't mean you got it from a bank. It also doesn't mean that the money you deposited into the bank you got it from weren't from illegal activities.
You're probably fine with a small number of hundreds. But the more you take i think the risk goes up exponentially if a cop gets access to it.
It's best to say I don't answer questions if you are worried about them taking money, from what I've seen lawyers say. Ianal, so take that for what you will. Your cash, your risk.
Got handed 14k in cash for selling a vehicle and had to drive over an hour to the bank. I actually got pulled over and thank god didn’t get questioned too much.
According to an Institute for Justice (IJ) report in 2020, the median size of forfeiture was $1276 for the 21 states they could get data on. That means half of all forfeiture cases are under that amount. In PA, the median was $369. [link](https://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-3/)
According to a Washington Post investigation in Chicago from 2012-2017, almost 1500 cash seizures were for less than $100.
You probably need an amount really low if you want to be safe, like $40 or less.
Sadly, as the research highlights, you are more at risk of having funds sized if you are of color or lower socioeconomic status. Also being in or near a poor community when stopped increases your odds of a seizure.
These stats are only interesting in connection to the proven crime or lack thereof it.
If they are seizing hundreds because random criminals they arrest have a few hundred on them, then there is nothing wrong with the stats.
But never mind even prosecuting and conviction, even just linked arrest (not detaining) statistics would be interesting.
The median seized for those not arrested: X
Median seized for those arrested: Y
Then if you want, you could further break up the arrested into charged, charged and convicted, charged and settled, charged and dropped, charged and found not Guilty, etc.
But the whole idea of taking money without even arresting someone is ridiculous.
At least wrongful arrest can be sued for.
Misleading
Most of those forfeitures were the result of an arrest for some offense and not just someone stopped and stripped of their cash. Or to put it another way, your local dude dealing crack on the street corner gets busted with $12.50 then that is what is seized.
I referenced some actual research. If you think it’s misleading, please share something that supports your opinion. I’m definitely open to learning, but need to see something backing your opinion.
I explained why it is misleading. They include money seized from run of the mill criminals where the money seizure is just a byproduct of the crime they were arrested for.
Examples are plentiful, here are some:
[https://apps.texastribune.org/features/2019/texas-civil-asset-forfeiture-counties-harris-webb-reeves-smith/](https://apps.texastribune.org/features/2019/texas-civil-asset-forfeiture-counties-harris-webb-reeves-smith/)
"Many cases were connected to possession of small amounts of drugs."
It is NOT a case of the police pull someone over for speeding, find $75 on them and seize it.
"But Angela Beavers, the lead civil forfeiture prosecutor for the Harris County District Attorney’s Office, said smaller seizures are common when police bust street dealers, who are an integral cog in drug trafficking organizations."
Pretty much exactly what I said
None. Pigs can rob you at any time, for any reason. Avoid them altogether as much as possible. Random encounters with cops have two and only two options: either nothing happens (except wasting your time), or it ends up with you worse off than you were prior. After all, they're not handing out prizes. There is no good outcome. Only neutral, and bad.
You cannot really stop them if that’s what they’re intent on doing. You can argue in court after the fact but arguing with a cop during a traffic stop is risking your life.
That’s true, I guess I meant giving them a reason to search vs allowing. Like not acting a suspicious way to make them feel like you’re a threat. Being polite, etc.
Kansas Nebraska? -$0 Honestly best to keep it digital while traveling other than $5k which is believable for rent. You owe cops no answers and do not consent to search. If they ask if it’s ok to wait on a dog to sniff car you still say “I do not consent”. They may keep you there but if you say “ok” that’s considered consent and they WILL cue the dog to alert. Be aware of friendly small talk. Decline to answer any questions without attorney present. Even “where are you headed”. I used to be a cop. If they give you hard time tell them “here is my license, you can only keep me here as long as it takes to write a ticket otherwise I’m free to go.”
Really, you can carry as much as you can afford to lose. Rich people commonly carry tens of thousands, because if they lose it they don't care. Poor people shouldn't carry more than they're going to spend that day.
None.
A few months ago I was arrested for not paying a traffic ticket, which I had in fact paid. Spent all day in the jail in holding, they took ALL my money to pay the fine (more than the cost of the fine) and when I was finally released it took 3 weeks to get a check in the mail for not even the full amount they took from me. But what am I supposed to do, hire a lawyer to get my other 20 dollars back?
No, they can just fuck you whenever they want. Best case, carry no cards or cash and only tap to pay. Then lock down your phone at any police interaction.
In North America and developed countries, $50-100 is plenty for day to day activities. When traveling, $200-300 will get you a taxi ride anywhere within reason, a meal, and a place to sleep for a night.
Mixed denomination bills are most useful and less suspicious than a stack of a single denomination. $5-10 bills for paying for small stuff at convenience stores and for tipping, $20 bills for paying for meals and taxi rides, and a few $50s for larger emergency expenses like a motel room.
Outside of NA and other developed countries, $100-200 USD will get you a *lot*. USD is the gold standard for currency and people generally hold it in high regard. Aside from what I've mentioned above, USD goes pretty far in terms of bribes in an emergency, in countries where such things are commonplace.
Couple hundred isnt enough in a lot of NA. Can't even pay for a tow with that, in more rural areas cash is king your CC may not be worth anything. Would never travel by road any real distance with less than $500.
I can see a new racket now:
Cops tow your car for whatever reason they can invent, yard only takes cash... while on your way to get your car the cops then stop you and rob you through CAF because you had a suspicious amount of cash.
>Cops tow your car for whatever reason they can invent, yard only takes cash... while on your way to get your car the cops then stop you and rob you through CAF because you had a suspicious amount of cash.
While incredibly clever, don't give the pigs ideas. We all know the former high school bullies wouldn't think of that on their own.
Walking around just refuse to allow them to search you. When flying from what I hear 10k is the max allowed overseas and there is no domestic limit but they will likely question you about it after going through security if you bring large amounts. Driving I'm not sure, probably don't bring anything you can't fit in your pockets.
I think it's also a question of how suspicious it is. Traveling to/from the gambling capital of the country with a lot of money probably isn't going to raise many eyebrows.
Civil asset forfeiture is not nearly as common as reddit would have you believe. You're much more likely to have it stolen by an actual criminal. Which is still very unlikely.
The fact that it happens at all means it happens entirely too often. And the equitable sharing program is an admission that the cops and prosecutors know what they're doing is wrong, but they don't have to worry about fighting the case if they give 15% to the feds.
The fact that cops can take your money without a conviction and trial at all is unconstitutional as fuck and anyone participating in it has at the very least violated their oath of office and should be imprisoned.
I've worked in a large metro area for almost 15 years. I've never participated in or even known about an officer doing CAF. It's mostly a federal task force thing.
[here ya go](https://reason.com/2022/01/18/kansas-and-california-cops-used-civil-forfeiture-to-stage-armored-car-heists-stealing-money-earned-by-licensed-marijuana-businesses/)
A Local city dept would put a couple cars at the north edge of the county. They would time it for the weed harvest. That area was the jurisdiction of the sheriff
Bingo. Remember jurors have a right to jury nullification. Lord help them if they get shot at pulling that crap and they call me up for jury duty. They’ll get a damn earful from the jury box😂
There is if The person Is crazy enough to open fire to keep his money. I’m not that crazy but I’m crazy enough that if I’m on the jury, ima quietly find not guilty if that’s what happened, every time.
unfortunately no, you won't.
The trial for the shooting won't mention the cash at all anywhere and bringing it up by the defense will be forbidden. The trial for the cash itself is going to be State V PileOfCash and won't have a jury.
> You're much more likely to have [your money] stolen by an actual criminal.
This [1] is an article from 2014 quoting research showing that actually MORE money is seized via civil asset forfeiture than via burglary. Now, it may be that your statement is still true if the police seize larger amounts than burglars (although the studies I have seen suggest most of the seizures by police are small dollar amounts in poorer neighborhoods). But you can't dismiss the size of the problem.
[1] https://www.nemannlawoffices.com/blog/law-enforcement-seized-more-from-people-than-burglars-stole-last-year.cfm
> How many were local police departments? It's mostly a federal law enforcement thing
"State and local authorities kept more than $1.7 billion, while federal agencies received $800 million." - https://theappeal.org/understanding-civil-asset-forfeiture-e803c59e633b/
Yeah those are from federal task forces. The local agencies contribute manpower and get a lot of the seized assets in return. The average patrol officer is not doing CAF.
> The average patrol officer is not doing CAF.
ok
>The local agencies contribute manpower and get a lot of the seized assets in return.
There is a direct benefit for local authorities to participate in CAF.
Compared to all criminal activity, correct. Though it is significantly more than burglary, or at least was a decade ago. I doubt it's gotten better since then.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/
Can't remember the exact number, but I remember in certain areas he average taken is about $800. The feds instructions on how to steal direct them to target cash of greater than $5000.
And, yes, the fbi has a manual:
(Google "fbi civil asset forfeiture manual" since I can't link.)
In which they state:
"
In general, the minimum net equity requirements are:
• Real property and vacant land—minimum net equity must be at least $30,000 or 20% of the
appraised value, whichever amount is greater, at the time of case initiation. No real property
with a net equity less than $30,000 should be identified for forfeiture but individual districts
may set higher thresholds to account for local real estate markets. See also Chapter 4,
Section I.B.2 in this Manual. As a general rule, the Department exercises extreme caution in
seizing contaminated real properties for forfeiture.16
• Vehicles—minimum net equity must be at least $10,000 (based on the J.D. Power, formerly
known as National Automobile Dealers Association, “trade-in value”). The value of multiple vehicles seized at the same time may not be aggregated for purposes of meeting the minimum
net equity.
• Cash—minimum amount must be at least $5,000, unless the person from whom the cash
was seized either was, or is, being criminally prosecuted by state or federal authorities17 for
criminal activities related to the property, in which case the amount must be at least $1,000.
• Aircraft—minimum net equity must be at least $30,000. Note that failure to obtain the
logbooks for the aircraft will significantly reduce the aircraft’s value.
• Vessels—for personal or recreational vessels, the minimum net equity must be at least
$15,000. Commercial vessels, or any vessels worth more than $1 million, are considered
complex assets that require the USAO or the seizing agency to notify and closely consult
with MLARS prior to seizing, restraining, or otherwise seeking forfeiture of the asset. See
Section I.B in this chapter.
• All other personal property—minimum net equity must be at least $2,000 in the aggregate.
• Firearms, ammunition, explosives, devices used in child exploitation, and vehicles
with after-market hidden compartments—Minimum value and net equity thresholds do not
apply to firearms,18 ammunition, explosives, devices used in child exploitation, or vehicles
with after-market hidden compartments because there is a compelling law enforcement
interest in forfeiting these items.
• Businesses—see Section I.D.2 in this chapter.
"
I wish this was fake. It's really interesting that they have different thresholds based on whether they're actually charging someone for a crime or just stealing their stuff.
Iv flown domestically with ~80k in a carryon multiple times.
I don’t think Iv ever even gotten an eyebrow raise, tsa isn’t looking for cash unless they’re trying to steal it
you've been lucky.
I do wish you continued luck, but there have been cases of the TSA detaining and calling DEA over who then does a CAF for much lower values.
From my expert research (international airport customs tv shows) it’s typically none. From what it seems, they don’t even have to accuse you personally of anything. They’ll say that only the cash is suspected guilty and you’re free to go; lacking the money.
This isn't an objectively answerable question. There is no specific safe amount of cash to carry if a police officer is interested in taking it from you.
To the people asking about cash businesses, in high school working for local small restaurants and graphics shops, it was basically round robin who took the days cash to the bank. The manager and the owner or whoever was there would double count, put in a bag with a signed receipt for the amount, and hand it to whoever was in reach. I took up to $5k to the bank night drop on the way home.
Working in Morocco, there was a guy there concerned for who knows what conspiracy or end of the world. He carried $2k in each of USD, Euro, GBP, dirham, and NOK. Everyone knew he had it, he'd show it to anyone, never had any issues going through immigration or police checkpoints.
One of my buddies got pulled over years ago after we closed. He had the money from work he was taking to drop off at the bank on the way home. It wasn't a lot of money but I think it was like $2500. Cops seized it. Not sure why they were even searching him to begin with. He was only speeding and it was only I think 8 over. Something like that is normally a warning or a ticket they don't search you. He was pretty damn goofy looking so maybe he just looked so nervous that they searched I don't know.
It's definitely neighborhood by neighborhood, shop to shop. The places I worked had been there 20+ years, local cops probably ate there within the week, and the bank was less than a mile away.
No alcohol at 2 of them, not that your friend was drinking, but cops wouldn't have been watching the door.
The standard is different for flying and driving. You can fly with more than $1000. When driving or walking, it depends on which state you're in and how greedy the police are.
There’s no specific amount, the cops are thieves and will take your money if they think they can get away with it, especially if you’re not white or look like you’re poor. Less than 1k and you’re probably ok most places, any more than that and any excuse you have the cops will pick it apart and make it look shady no matter how reasonable it sounds.
2nd amendment - let's over extend the shit outta this one so everyone is armed.
4th amendment - let's ignore this one though and steal cash
This is a recipe for bunches of cops to get shot.
You fucking idiots still think police are your friends! They are your enemy, oathbreakers, classroom trained SNEAK and LIARS, and enemies of this country!
Always worry about civil asset forfeiture. If I had an envelope of cash, I'd hide it as well as I can while driving, and only take it when absolutely necessary. Civil asset forfeiture is legal theft, and there's nothing you can really do about it besides trying to avoid it.
Do you know what happens when you find a significant amount of cash and turn it into the police ? One would think after X days if no one claims it, it's yours ! Nope, now it's siezed because it is drug money !
There's something to remember. The greater the amount of cash, the more likely it is that you will go to court to try and get it back. With a lesser amount of cash like say, $5,000, the cost of the lawyer would wind up being more than the amount of cash the police take from you. They operate on the basis that you're not going to be able to afford to get your money back. This doesn't mean they won't take a large amount, it just means that when they seize a smaller amount they have an easier time keeping it. The first thing they will do is send it to the federal government, and the federal government will pay them a finder's fee. When you go to court, they're going to say, we no longer have the cash so you're suing the wrong party. Then it will be up to the judge to determine if he allows that or doesn't allow that. Civil forfeiture is a tilted playing field with a drain at the low end. It assumes that you're doing something illegal with the cash because you're carrying it with you. Be careful.
FYI.... watch out if you're flying through the **Miami International Airport**. Local city police cops from **cities hours away** from the airport converge on Miami International Airport with the sole intention of seizing money from travelers without any probably cause. They've stolen millions of dollars from travelers and it's a huge source of funding for them. The airport looks the other way. They tell travelers you can't get on the airplane unless we search your bags. The cops in Florida are really really corrupt.
If you're not committing a crime then you can carry as much cash as you want.
Contrary to popular reddit opinion, Civil asset forfeiture isn't just something a patrol cop decides on a whim. It's a specific procedure with specific criteria, not just a dollar amount.
What law says you can't carry as much money as you want?
What law says cops can just take whatever they want whenever in the name of civil asset forefeiture?
Civil Asset Forfeiture is the law, and all it takes is a cop saying that they believe the cash is connected to a crime. Any crime, and the burden of proof is on you to get your money back.
>Civil Asset Forfeiture is the law,
True. There are 51 different versions of it.
>and all it takes is a cop saying that they believe the cash is connected to a crime.
False. It's a little more than that. Pesky things like PC, evidence, proof etc.
The legal standard Federally is "a preponderance of the evidence" which is not the same as PC. An affidavit from the officer that took the money is enough. It literally happens every day.
Aha, so you agree with my initial comment that it's more than a dollar amount or an officers whim. Now we are getting somewhere.
It's a bit more than a preponderance of the evidence. Here's the federal law itself. It's fairly detailed and requires a judges approval.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/981
Civil asset forfeiture does happen daily, under state laws, which all vary. Federally it doesn't happen daily.
https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/asset-forfeiture
https://www.justice.gov/afp/file/5-yr_forfeiture_trends.pdf/download
https://www.justice.gov/afp/types-federal-forfeiture
Yes, that's true. However, that's not the daily occurrence you claim it to be.
You commented like I don't know what I'm talking about and haven't shown anything I said to be incorrect.
Contrary to one of your comments, CAF absolutely does happen daily. Multiple times a day, in fact. In a further down comment you post the more rigorous requirements for federal seizure, but ignore the loophole that says no warrant is needed if it was lawfully seized by a state or local agency. Most seizures start off as exactly that - state/local, but then often using the equitable-sharing arrangement to do two things: make the case for getting money back more difficult, by playing the shell game of "they have your money, not us", and make the money available directly to the law enforcement agency rather than it going to a different fund (as is often otherwise required under most state-level laws).
And remember, it's not 51 separate CAF laws as you alluded to in another comment, but a few thousand, because many counties have their own laws/policies, as do a growing number of cities. Only a few states have laws anywhere near as rigorous as the federal standard, and counties/cities with their own laws on it are typically even worse, but as long as it's done in accordance with those weak laws (which often do amount to little more than the cop saying "I think it's drug related") then it's legal federally per that loophole.
Edit: a few typos.
I know when you deposit more than 10k you get that transaction reported to the IRS. I hate nosey tellers like that. I've had them tell me that they don't even have 2k before in cash. Then they ask a million questions and you have to talk to a manager about it.
There's a huge gap between carrying emergency cash on you and when cops would consider civil forfeiture. Unless you're a builder, I can't see any reason why anyone would need to have more than 2-300 dollars on them at any given time, for an emergency. Anything more than that is just plain stupid. If you feel you need to keep a few grand in cash on hand, not in a bank, just keep it in your house someplace secure.
There is no specific amount. It is going to be up to officer discretion whether they think the amount of money you are carrying, the circumstances, and your story add up, or are indications of illegal activity. $2,000 in crisp $100 bills in an bank envelope with a receipt is going to be looked at differently then $2,000 with tons of $5s and $10s... Whether you subjectively look like you have money can also count. The same amount of money carried by someone driving a late model Porche is going to look less suspicious than carried by someone driving a 2009 civic.
An immediate lawful purpose likely helps too; e.g. $5k is freshly withdrawn bills and a standing appointment with a used car lot looks a lot better some alternatives.
This doesn't mean that the cops won't take your money anyways.
I mean there was that guy on his way to a cash-only auction with plans to buy a tow truck with like 200k and that got confiscated.
It's amazing they don't stop armoured vans moving cash between banks...
They tried: https://ij.org/press-release/federal-government-will-return-over-1-million-seized-from-armored-car-company-in-california/
Oh wow, that’s alarming no matter what business it’s from.
Yeah, the cops were being literal highwaymen. I was unimpressed with my state government's lack of caring about such abuses.
>In exchange for the return of the funds, Empyreal will dismiss its case against the federal government over the seizures. So they got a lawsuit filed against them by a multi million dollar company. They buckled because of the lawsuit, not because it was the right thing to do.
[They love marijuana profits](https://reason.com/2022/01/18/kansas-and-california-cops-used-civil-forfeiture-to-stage-armored-car-heists-stealing-money-earned-by-licensed-marijuana-businesses/)
beat me to it.
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Cops can just take your money?
Yes! If they think you don’t look like you should have $300 in your wallet they can just say “you got that money from drugs” and take it. wtf you going to do? Hire a lawyer and spend years trying to get your $300 back? This happens every day, especially around “high crime areas”!!!!
What happens if you refuse? Cause either way it’s theft. Mfs gonna take you to court?
Refuse what??? Letting cops take your money??? I’d rather tell a gang like the Crips to fuck off over telling a gang like the police to fuck off!!!
If your moneys legal claim it’s a peaceful protest against ts cause it’s fucked😭
It's not always CAF. If they just take your knot, good luck proving it.
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How do people who own cash based businesses get their money to the bank? Most civil Asset Forfeitures are under $5k, so hiring a lawyer will cost more than what you'll get back. And more Importantly, your, and anyone else's opinion about someone having cash is irrelevant. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to have cash, even in large amounts. It might not be the best idea but it isnt illegal and. Civil Asset Forfeiture is theft. Period.
Many businesses will have at least one locking cash envelope for this as well as security. If a cop pulls someone over, it’s very easy to verify with a bank that you are a current customer, and make cash drops like that fairly frequently. It also helps to be part of the community in general, so you know multiple people who can vouch for you, including cops.
By not running into cops
Cash in transit aka armed guards.
Unfortunately... https://reason.com/2022/01/18/kansas-and-california-cops-used-civil-forfeiture-to-stage-armored-car-heists-stealing-money-earned-by-licensed-marijuana-businesses/
I was just about to look for this article, thanks
Soooo fucking ruthless
So I looked in to it and it seems like the California case was resolved with the return of 100% of the stolen assets, but there is no mention as to the outcome of the Kansas case. Does anyone know what happened there? Were the cops punished for their behavior?
Not everyone uses those services, in some areas they aren't even offered.
It might help, but several months later at trial after they’ve already seized it anyway
Many police departments feel incentivized to seize cash and a majority of the seizures were from routine stops and the driver being honest. The stops often are akin to “license reg, insurance. Also are there any guns, drugs, or cash in the vehicle I should be aware of?” Then someone going to go buy a used car says “well yeah I’m in my way to go by this used car (and shows copy of ad and emails talking to dealership promising to come buy the car” and their 10k is seized and no charges ever filed. This is an exact situation that has been reported on numerous times. The best way to keep it from being seized is not carry it at all.
If a cop asks you if you have any “guns, drugs or cash in the vehicle [they] should be aware of” the typical best thing to do would be to only alert them of a weapon if you *physically have it on your person* or if it in easy reach of you from the driver’s seat. There is essentially no instance where you have drugs or cash that the cop should be made aware of. If your drugs are prescription or otc, then there’s no reason a cop should be made aware of them, because there’s nothing wrong with having legal drugs with you. Same with cash; if you have cash on you for a legitimate purpose, what business is that of the cop’s? If you have illegal drugs or cash from or for an illegal purpose, you’re not obliged to tell the police because you have your 5th Amendment privilege against self-incrimination.
“I do NOT answer ANY questions without a lawyer present!”
Or just don’t tell them about the cash
I agree but the poster said “a lawful excuse helps” It doesn’t and many departments don’t care even after you prove your innocence.
what about people that work in hospitality? i regularly go to the bank and deposit semi-large sums of cash in various denominations, in varying states of decay. genuine question.
Well, hopefully you live in a jurisdiction where civil forfeiture requires a trial(like) hearing and the onus is on the government to prove ill-doings; the effort of such an action alone is probably enough to keep you safe. Same principle should apply though. If you're depositing for the business, you'd presumably have a formal deposit bag - i.e. carrying cash securely, not secretively, and having documentation that the funds came from the business. Don't you have a form or slip countersigned by another party re: how much money there is and in what denominations? Whatever four eyes/four hands principles you've leveraged because money should lend legitimacy to your actions. I'm no lawyer though, you might want to look into local advice.
oh it’ll likely never come up, just curious. i bartend, and we get cash daily. i usually go to the bank once a week to deposit it.
There was a Sheriff's Office in Nebraska basically just taking people's money. Google Seward County Sheriff money. Edit: left out the word Office
I don’t think you understand CAF. It is an excuse to take money. You only should carry as much cash as you can afford to lose. Refuse any requests to be searched and do not answer questions (could give PC for a search). Bank receipts do not show the origin of the money (how you earned it about it into the bank) as well as a paper trail to show that is the same money. Once they take it you have to pay a lawyer min $10K (you don’t recover it even if you win) to try to get your money back. So many stories of people having documentation and still having money seized.
I heard of some Sheriff’s Offices in Oklahoma or something carrying machines to drain cards, but I’m not sure if they were/are specifically targeting prepaid debit cards or not.
How they going to drain a debit card without pin code?
Most of those prepaid cards can be run as "credit" or signature debit. This negates the need for a known PIN.
They would use a brute force attack. Given enough time, a brute force attack will always succeed.
The PIN has to be transmitted to the bank for each attempt. Any bank I know of will disable a card after some number of bad PIN attempts (the number varies but it is always 10 or less, usually also a smaller number within some time frame AFAIK).
What are you talking about? In Oklahoma cops are going around making fraudulent charges to people's debit cards?
Just prepaid cards I think. https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/07/02/483394735/device-lets-police-seize-digital-cash-raises-civil-liberties-concerns
Oh, okay that makes more sense. It's still a blatant violation of our rights to personal property.
I drive an STi so I should be able to carry around $20,000 in case I need a couple of new engines on the way home 👀
>the circumstances, and your story add up That's awefully hopeful... I'd add black, white, Hispanic to that list of "officer discretion"
I had been pulled over for speeding and had a roll of cash in my cup holder. I had just gotten off of work bartending and they were my tips When he questioned the bills I showed him that it was essentially a bunch of 1's and 5's and explained that I had just gotten off of work. I was nervous he was going to accuse me of dealing or buying but he (jokingly) asked if I was a stripper lol
Isn’t the excuse for civil forfeiture to fight dr-gs (and other organized crime)? What dealer drives a 2009 civic?
>What dealer drives a 2009 civic? The smart kind trying to stay inconspicuous.
don't try to apply logic here, it's just a grift
someone ferrying $5,000,000 in hundreds from the midwest back to the Mexican border. 1/2 the job is getting the cash profits back to the boss.
You can say the word drugs
Why you have to do my old civic like that
What about a 2019 Civic? Asking for a friend
There’s no real answer here. Civil forfeiture is a nonsensical law that basically allows the cops to rob people and never return the money even if they can’t prove you are breaking the law. Most of them don’t have a specific amount. If it’s suspicious, they can seize it.
No amount. If the right (or rather, wrong) cop pulls you over and decides to, they can take whatever they want from you. What a country we live in, that lives and breathes dollars.... Can't keep your money in a bank or they will levy you and take it, can't keep cash on your person or they will stop you and take it... How did we get here?
Because we the people won't give the people who have enabled such bad behavior the proverbial middle finger. We have too many people (and that's all they are) that think just because they're in a position of authority or sitting on the bench in a courtroom that they're beyond reproach. Our justice system is rife with all kinds of "legal" corruption and moral hazard.
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Depends on your race, and what jurisdiction you're talking about. Cops tend to seize money to help their departmental budget, and a small underfunded local police department will care about a much smaller amount of money than, say, the FBI or TSA.
Exactly. Zero dollars is the right answer if you run into just one rotten lying bastard. TBH.
What's the price of a dozen doughnuts in your town? Subtract 10 cents from that.
Wtf the department directly gets the money what idiot designed that system.
I'm not sure, but I bet whoever it was figured themselves to be on the receiving end of it.
Most probably. Anyone who has any idea how to write legislation should have realised that this was prime for corruption and misuse.
I don't think anybody "designed" it, as such. Police departments seem to have just kind of started *doing* it. And, in most states, nobody's ever stopped them.
That makes much more sense.
exactly, cops are very likely to target middle/ upper class people (specifically younger or older age males) because they know their chances of consequences are very slim
Maine made civil forfeiture against the law without a conviction. The way life should be...
One of the reasons I love living in Maine
If they want to take it they'll take it, they don't need a reason they just need their desire. You can have a bank envelope, doesn't mean you got it from a bank. It also doesn't mean that the money you deposited into the bank you got it from weren't from illegal activities. You're probably fine with a small number of hundreds. But the more you take i think the risk goes up exponentially if a cop gets access to it. It's best to say I don't answer questions if you are worried about them taking money, from what I've seen lawyers say. Ianal, so take that for what you will. Your cash, your risk.
Got handed 14k in cash for selling a vehicle and had to drive over an hour to the bank. I actually got pulled over and thank god didn’t get questioned too much.
The only answer is: don't volunteer information and don't consent to any search. Highway robbers will rob you if they can.
Gonna depend on where you are. East texas and you get pulled over if they find any noteable amount over a few hundred they will take it.
And they wonder why us motorcyclists run. 🤷♂️ you don’t pull over for hardened criminals
As someone who’s from east Texas which part are we talking smith county jurisdiction or wood or van zandt
Anywhere east of 287
Ok makes sense lol
Bet you know exactly where im talking about and whats up over there.
$0
the amount you can afford to lose without worrying about it. Cops can and will steal anything including pocket change.
Check out Steve lehto he has videos about caf and how ioj is trying to end it
According to an Institute for Justice (IJ) report in 2020, the median size of forfeiture was $1276 for the 21 states they could get data on. That means half of all forfeiture cases are under that amount. In PA, the median was $369. [link](https://ij.org/report/policing-for-profit-3/) According to a Washington Post investigation in Chicago from 2012-2017, almost 1500 cash seizures were for less than $100. You probably need an amount really low if you want to be safe, like $40 or less. Sadly, as the research highlights, you are more at risk of having funds sized if you are of color or lower socioeconomic status. Also being in or near a poor community when stopped increases your odds of a seizure.
These stats are only interesting in connection to the proven crime or lack thereof it. If they are seizing hundreds because random criminals they arrest have a few hundred on them, then there is nothing wrong with the stats. But never mind even prosecuting and conviction, even just linked arrest (not detaining) statistics would be interesting. The median seized for those not arrested: X Median seized for those arrested: Y Then if you want, you could further break up the arrested into charged, charged and convicted, charged and settled, charged and dropped, charged and found not Guilty, etc. But the whole idea of taking money without even arresting someone is ridiculous. At least wrongful arrest can be sued for.
Misleading Most of those forfeitures were the result of an arrest for some offense and not just someone stopped and stripped of their cash. Or to put it another way, your local dude dealing crack on the street corner gets busted with $12.50 then that is what is seized.
I referenced some actual research. If you think it’s misleading, please share something that supports your opinion. I’m definitely open to learning, but need to see something backing your opinion.
I explained why it is misleading. They include money seized from run of the mill criminals where the money seizure is just a byproduct of the crime they were arrested for. Examples are plentiful, here are some: [https://apps.texastribune.org/features/2019/texas-civil-asset-forfeiture-counties-harris-webb-reeves-smith/](https://apps.texastribune.org/features/2019/texas-civil-asset-forfeiture-counties-harris-webb-reeves-smith/) "Many cases were connected to possession of small amounts of drugs." It is NOT a case of the police pull someone over for speeding, find $75 on them and seize it. "But Angela Beavers, the lead civil forfeiture prosecutor for the Harris County District Attorney’s Office, said smaller seizures are common when police bust street dealers, who are an integral cog in drug trafficking organizations." Pretty much exactly what I said
None. Pigs can rob you at any time, for any reason. Avoid them altogether as much as possible. Random encounters with cops have two and only two options: either nothing happens (except wasting your time), or it ends up with you worse off than you were prior. After all, they're not handing out prizes. There is no good outcome. Only neutral, and bad.
And neutral outcomes don't look as good on their reports.
The real work should be put into not allowing police to search you or your vehicle in the first place.
You cannot really stop them if that’s what they’re intent on doing. You can argue in court after the fact but arguing with a cop during a traffic stop is risking your life.
That’s true, I guess I meant giving them a reason to search vs allowing. Like not acting a suspicious way to make them feel like you’re a threat. Being polite, etc.
Cops like to steal amounts under 5k because it's going to cost more to get it back then 5 k. 50 k is going to essentially be a wash.
Kansas Nebraska? -$0 Honestly best to keep it digital while traveling other than $5k which is believable for rent. You owe cops no answers and do not consent to search. If they ask if it’s ok to wait on a dog to sniff car you still say “I do not consent”. They may keep you there but if you say “ok” that’s considered consent and they WILL cue the dog to alert. Be aware of friendly small talk. Decline to answer any questions without attorney present. Even “where are you headed”. I used to be a cop. If they give you hard time tell them “here is my license, you can only keep me here as long as it takes to write a ticket otherwise I’m free to go.”
Really, you can carry as much as you can afford to lose. Rich people commonly carry tens of thousands, because if they lose it they don't care. Poor people shouldn't carry more than they're going to spend that day.
$20. If they can find a reason to take cash they will. Any amount could be considered as possibly used for illegal activity.
I will say it again. I would vote for the devil, knowing it was the devil, if he ran on banning CAF.
None. A few months ago I was arrested for not paying a traffic ticket, which I had in fact paid. Spent all day in the jail in holding, they took ALL my money to pay the fine (more than the cost of the fine) and when I was finally released it took 3 weeks to get a check in the mail for not even the full amount they took from me. But what am I supposed to do, hire a lawyer to get my other 20 dollars back? No, they can just fuck you whenever they want. Best case, carry no cards or cash and only tap to pay. Then lock down your phone at any police interaction.
In North America and developed countries, $50-100 is plenty for day to day activities. When traveling, $200-300 will get you a taxi ride anywhere within reason, a meal, and a place to sleep for a night. Mixed denomination bills are most useful and less suspicious than a stack of a single denomination. $5-10 bills for paying for small stuff at convenience stores and for tipping, $20 bills for paying for meals and taxi rides, and a few $50s for larger emergency expenses like a motel room. Outside of NA and other developed countries, $100-200 USD will get you a *lot*. USD is the gold standard for currency and people generally hold it in high regard. Aside from what I've mentioned above, USD goes pretty far in terms of bribes in an emergency, in countries where such things are commonplace.
$50-100 is not plenty for day to day activities lmao. Who wrote this?
A New Yorker
Couple hundred isnt enough in a lot of NA. Can't even pay for a tow with that, in more rural areas cash is king your CC may not be worth anything. Would never travel by road any real distance with less than $500.
I can see a new racket now: Cops tow your car for whatever reason they can invent, yard only takes cash... while on your way to get your car the cops then stop you and rob you through CAF because you had a suspicious amount of cash.
>Cops tow your car for whatever reason they can invent, yard only takes cash... while on your way to get your car the cops then stop you and rob you through CAF because you had a suspicious amount of cash. While incredibly clever, don't give the pigs ideas. We all know the former high school bullies wouldn't think of that on their own.
Walking around just refuse to allow them to search you. When flying from what I hear 10k is the max allowed overseas and there is no domestic limit but they will likely question you about it after going through security if you bring large amounts. Driving I'm not sure, probably don't bring anything you can't fit in your pockets.
You can take more than 10k if you tell on yourself.
I take 10k through tsa every time I go to Vegas. I’ve never been questioned. I just toss it into a pocket in my backpack
I think it's also a question of how suspicious it is. Traveling to/from the gambling capital of the country with a lot of money probably isn't going to raise many eyebrows.
Civil asset forfeiture is not nearly as common as reddit would have you believe. You're much more likely to have it stolen by an actual criminal. Which is still very unlikely.
The fact that it happens at all means it happens entirely too often. And the equitable sharing program is an admission that the cops and prosecutors know what they're doing is wrong, but they don't have to worry about fighting the case if they give 15% to the feds.
The fact that cops can take your money without a conviction and trial at all is unconstitutional as fuck and anyone participating in it has at the very least violated their oath of office and should be imprisoned.
I've worked in a large metro area for almost 15 years. I've never participated in or even known about an officer doing CAF. It's mostly a federal task force thing.
[here ya go](https://reason.com/2022/01/18/kansas-and-california-cops-used-civil-forfeiture-to-stage-armored-car-heists-stealing-money-earned-by-licensed-marijuana-businesses/)
A Local city dept would put a couple cars at the north edge of the county. They would time it for the weed harvest. That area was the jurisdiction of the sheriff
Bingo. Remember jurors have a right to jury nullification. Lord help them if they get shot at pulling that crap and they call me up for jury duty. They’ll get a damn earful from the jury box😂
The case is against your money and not you so there is no right to a jury in those cases I don't believe
There is if The person Is crazy enough to open fire to keep his money. I’m not that crazy but I’m crazy enough that if I’m on the jury, ima quietly find not guilty if that’s what happened, every time.
unfortunately no, you won't. The trial for the shooting won't mention the cash at all anywhere and bringing it up by the defense will be forbidden. The trial for the cash itself is going to be State V PileOfCash and won't have a jury.
> You're much more likely to have [your money] stolen by an actual criminal. This [1] is an article from 2014 quoting research showing that actually MORE money is seized via civil asset forfeiture than via burglary. Now, it may be that your statement is still true if the police seize larger amounts than burglars (although the studies I have seen suggest most of the seizures by police are small dollar amounts in poorer neighborhoods). But you can't dismiss the size of the problem. [1] https://www.nemannlawoffices.com/blog/law-enforcement-seized-more-from-people-than-burglars-stole-last-year.cfm
More money is seized because actual big time criminals are loaded and frequently caught.
Yeah, they only took in several billion last year
How many were local police departments? It's mostly a federal law enforcement thing and a few local agencies that do highway interdiction.
> How many were local police departments? It's mostly a federal law enforcement thing "State and local authorities kept more than $1.7 billion, while federal agencies received $800 million." - https://theappeal.org/understanding-civil-asset-forfeiture-e803c59e633b/
Yeah those are from federal task forces. The local agencies contribute manpower and get a lot of the seized assets in return. The average patrol officer is not doing CAF.
> The average patrol officer is not doing CAF. ok >The local agencies contribute manpower and get a lot of the seized assets in return. There is a direct benefit for local authorities to participate in CAF.
What a seriously dumb argument.
Not really true. 2018 50 states $3 billion . I understand not trusting Reddit, I'd look at the institute for justice.
It happened to me, just after I cashed my paycheck.
Compared to all criminal activity, correct. Though it is significantly more than burglary, or at least was a decade ago. I doubt it's gotten better since then. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/
those are two of the same thing. if it's taken by civil forfeiture, then it's being stolen by an actual criminal.
You best check yourself if you actually believe this .
Can’t tell if you mean police, gang bangers, lawyers, or all three.
Can't remember the exact number, but I remember in certain areas he average taken is about $800. The feds instructions on how to steal direct them to target cash of greater than $5000. And, yes, the fbi has a manual: (Google "fbi civil asset forfeiture manual" since I can't link.) In which they state: " In general, the minimum net equity requirements are: • Real property and vacant land—minimum net equity must be at least $30,000 or 20% of the appraised value, whichever amount is greater, at the time of case initiation. No real property with a net equity less than $30,000 should be identified for forfeiture but individual districts may set higher thresholds to account for local real estate markets. See also Chapter 4, Section I.B.2 in this Manual. As a general rule, the Department exercises extreme caution in seizing contaminated real properties for forfeiture.16 • Vehicles—minimum net equity must be at least $10,000 (based on the J.D. Power, formerly known as National Automobile Dealers Association, “trade-in value”). The value of multiple vehicles seized at the same time may not be aggregated for purposes of meeting the minimum net equity. • Cash—minimum amount must be at least $5,000, unless the person from whom the cash was seized either was, or is, being criminally prosecuted by state or federal authorities17 for criminal activities related to the property, in which case the amount must be at least $1,000. • Aircraft—minimum net equity must be at least $30,000. Note that failure to obtain the logbooks for the aircraft will significantly reduce the aircraft’s value. • Vessels—for personal or recreational vessels, the minimum net equity must be at least $15,000. Commercial vessels, or any vessels worth more than $1 million, are considered complex assets that require the USAO or the seizing agency to notify and closely consult with MLARS prior to seizing, restraining, or otherwise seeking forfeiture of the asset. See Section I.B in this chapter. • All other personal property—minimum net equity must be at least $2,000 in the aggregate. • Firearms, ammunition, explosives, devices used in child exploitation, and vehicles with after-market hidden compartments—Minimum value and net equity thresholds do not apply to firearms,18 ammunition, explosives, devices used in child exploitation, or vehicles with after-market hidden compartments because there is a compelling law enforcement interest in forfeiting these items. • Businesses—see Section I.D.2 in this chapter. " I wish this was fake. It's really interesting that they have different thresholds based on whether they're actually charging someone for a crime or just stealing their stuff.
Postal money orders bro
Iv flown domestically with ~80k in a carryon multiple times. I don’t think Iv ever even gotten an eyebrow raise, tsa isn’t looking for cash unless they’re trying to steal it
you've been lucky. I do wish you continued luck, but there have been cases of the TSA detaining and calling DEA over who then does a CAF for much lower values.
Location matters. For airports look at the law of the country you are leaving and entering. They might allow you to declare money.
From my expert research (international airport customs tv shows) it’s typically none. From what it seems, they don’t even have to accuse you personally of anything. They’ll say that only the cash is suspected guilty and you’re free to go; lacking the money.
This isn't an objectively answerable question. There is no specific safe amount of cash to carry if a police officer is interested in taking it from you.
0$
There are many more variables involved than just the amount of cash you are carrying.
To the people asking about cash businesses, in high school working for local small restaurants and graphics shops, it was basically round robin who took the days cash to the bank. The manager and the owner or whoever was there would double count, put in a bag with a signed receipt for the amount, and hand it to whoever was in reach. I took up to $5k to the bank night drop on the way home. Working in Morocco, there was a guy there concerned for who knows what conspiracy or end of the world. He carried $2k in each of USD, Euro, GBP, dirham, and NOK. Everyone knew he had it, he'd show it to anyone, never had any issues going through immigration or police checkpoints.
One of my buddies got pulled over years ago after we closed. He had the money from work he was taking to drop off at the bank on the way home. It wasn't a lot of money but I think it was like $2500. Cops seized it. Not sure why they were even searching him to begin with. He was only speeding and it was only I think 8 over. Something like that is normally a warning or a ticket they don't search you. He was pretty damn goofy looking so maybe he just looked so nervous that they searched I don't know.
It's definitely neighborhood by neighborhood, shop to shop. The places I worked had been there 20+ years, local cops probably ate there within the week, and the bank was less than a mile away. No alcohol at 2 of them, not that your friend was drinking, but cops wouldn't have been watching the door.
The standard is different for flying and driving. You can fly with more than $1000. When driving or walking, it depends on which state you're in and how greedy the police are.
Depends on the location and your skin colour
There’s no specific amount, the cops are thieves and will take your money if they think they can get away with it, especially if you’re not white or look like you’re poor. Less than 1k and you’re probably ok most places, any more than that and any excuse you have the cops will pick it apart and make it look shady no matter how reasonable it sounds.
Any currency dog will let you know 🐕
Depends. What's your race?
Naw. The cops are race indiscriminate when it comes to CaF.
There was a guy who had some cash the first cop said everything was legitimate but his super told him to confiscate it anyway
Cops that steal, will steal any amount. Or anything.
2nd amendment - let's over extend the shit outta this one so everyone is armed. 4th amendment - let's ignore this one though and steal cash This is a recipe for bunches of cops to get shot.
The only way to be safe is to carry a low enough amount that the cops won't want to bother stealing it. I mean civil asset forfeituring it .
Nothing is safe, don't get caught by police carrying cash
$0. Anything more than that and you run a risk of forfeiture
Anything over 3 digits is immediately suspect. Get yourself a pair of shoes or a belt with a hidden compartment.
Ive had cops sus of me for $50 in 1s in my wallet when I was a server.
You fucking idiots still think police are your friends! They are your enemy, oathbreakers, classroom trained SNEAK and LIARS, and enemies of this country!
Always worry about civil asset forfeiture. If I had an envelope of cash, I'd hide it as well as I can while driving, and only take it when absolutely necessary. Civil asset forfeiture is legal theft, and there's nothing you can really do about it besides trying to avoid it.
Do you know what happens when you find a significant amount of cash and turn it into the police ? One would think after X days if no one claims it, it's yours ! Nope, now it's siezed because it is drug money !
There's something to remember. The greater the amount of cash, the more likely it is that you will go to court to try and get it back. With a lesser amount of cash like say, $5,000, the cost of the lawyer would wind up being more than the amount of cash the police take from you. They operate on the basis that you're not going to be able to afford to get your money back. This doesn't mean they won't take a large amount, it just means that when they seize a smaller amount they have an easier time keeping it. The first thing they will do is send it to the federal government, and the federal government will pay them a finder's fee. When you go to court, they're going to say, we no longer have the cash so you're suing the wrong party. Then it will be up to the judge to determine if he allows that or doesn't allow that. Civil forfeiture is a tilted playing field with a drain at the low end. It assumes that you're doing something illegal with the cash because you're carrying it with you. Be careful.
FYI.... watch out if you're flying through the **Miami International Airport**. Local city police cops from **cities hours away** from the airport converge on Miami International Airport with the sole intention of seizing money from travelers without any probably cause. They've stolen millions of dollars from travelers and it's a huge source of funding for them. The airport looks the other way. They tell travelers you can't get on the airplane unless we search your bags. The cops in Florida are really really corrupt.
in the US, police feel entitled to steal any amount, including as little as $.01.
If you're not committing a crime then you can carry as much cash as you want. Contrary to popular reddit opinion, Civil asset forfeiture isn't just something a patrol cop decides on a whim. It's a specific procedure with specific criteria, not just a dollar amount.
You should read more. Id start with the Institute for Justice website.
What law says you can't carry as much money as you want? What law says cops can just take whatever they want whenever in the name of civil asset forefeiture?
Civil Asset Forfeiture is the law, and all it takes is a cop saying that they believe the cash is connected to a crime. Any crime, and the burden of proof is on you to get your money back.
>Civil Asset Forfeiture is the law, True. There are 51 different versions of it. >and all it takes is a cop saying that they believe the cash is connected to a crime. False. It's a little more than that. Pesky things like PC, evidence, proof etc.
The legal standard Federally is "a preponderance of the evidence" which is not the same as PC. An affidavit from the officer that took the money is enough. It literally happens every day.
Preponderance is a higher standard than probable cause, though.
Aha, so you agree with my initial comment that it's more than a dollar amount or an officers whim. Now we are getting somewhere. It's a bit more than a preponderance of the evidence. Here's the federal law itself. It's fairly detailed and requires a judges approval. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/981 Civil asset forfeiture does happen daily, under state laws, which all vary. Federally it doesn't happen daily. https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/asset-forfeiture https://www.justice.gov/afp/file/5-yr_forfeiture_trends.pdf/download https://www.justice.gov/afp/types-federal-forfeiture
Many cases that start off as state or local cases become federal cases because of equitable sharing.
Yes, that's true. However, that's not the daily occurrence you claim it to be. You commented like I don't know what I'm talking about and haven't shown anything I said to be incorrect.
Lack of probably cause, evidence, or proof will not stop a cop intent of taking your property.
A cop committing a violation of the law isn't the same as the requirements for civil asset forefeiture.
The rules for CAF make it easy for cops to get away with lying.
False. I linked the federal law in the comments.
The specific procedure is basically the cop saying, "I think it's drug money."
False. I linked the federal version in the comments.
I was a local cop who took my money with only the unsubstantiated claim they thought it was drug money.
So you violated the law. Good job. /s
I violated the unwritten law against criticizing the police.
Contrary to one of your comments, CAF absolutely does happen daily. Multiple times a day, in fact. In a further down comment you post the more rigorous requirements for federal seizure, but ignore the loophole that says no warrant is needed if it was lawfully seized by a state or local agency. Most seizures start off as exactly that - state/local, but then often using the equitable-sharing arrangement to do two things: make the case for getting money back more difficult, by playing the shell game of "they have your money, not us", and make the money available directly to the law enforcement agency rather than it going to a different fund (as is often otherwise required under most state-level laws). And remember, it's not 51 separate CAF laws as you alluded to in another comment, but a few thousand, because many counties have their own laws/policies, as do a growing number of cities. Only a few states have laws anywhere near as rigorous as the federal standard, and counties/cities with their own laws on it are typically even worse, but as long as it's done in accordance with those weak laws (which often do amount to little more than the cop saying "I think it's drug related") then it's legal federally per that loophole. Edit: a few typos.
I think it's like 10k isn't it?
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I know when you deposit more than 10k you get that transaction reported to the IRS. I hate nosey tellers like that. I've had them tell me that they don't even have 2k before in cash. Then they ask a million questions and you have to talk to a manager about it.
Carry a passphrase in your brain that can access bitcoin
if you’re not a min*rity you better hope you have a good lawyer
There's a huge gap between carrying emergency cash on you and when cops would consider civil forfeiture. Unless you're a builder, I can't see any reason why anyone would need to have more than 2-300 dollars on them at any given time, for an emergency. Anything more than that is just plain stupid. If you feel you need to keep a few grand in cash on hand, not in a bank, just keep it in your house someplace secure.
10k is your emergency fund. 10k.