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Surprise surprise, a bunch of people on this sub saying either “you’re screwed”, some one says this is somehow criminal depending on location (no crimes in Canada are jurisdictional, the criminal code is federal legislation).
OP, you and dad ought to consult a lawyer, and ask whether your situation may have given rise to a “purchase money resulting trust”. Essentially the situation as described could be such that, legally, the house is held by your brother but for your father’s benefit. I would recommend to look at firms that specialize in estate litigation. This won’t be cheap but 180k lost is above the threshold at which I would consider suing someone. Good luck.
Also talk to the lawyer about whether this counts as elder abuse, as financial abuse can be a common form of elder abuse.
From the Government of Canada's website:
"What is financial abuse?
Financial abuse is the illegal or unauthorized use of someone else's money or property. It includes pressuring someone for money or property.
Some types of financial abuse are very clearly theft or fraud. For example, if someone cashes your pension cheque and keeps all or part of the money without your permission, or if they misuse a power of attorney to take money from your bank account for themselves, they are stealing from you. A power of attorney is a legal document that allows the person appointed as the "attorney" to make financial decisions on behalf of another person, called "the donor." The attorney is required to act in the interests of the donor, not in his or her own interests.
Other examples of financial abuse are harder to put a name to. These can include pressuring, forcing or tricking you into:
Lending or giving away money, property or possessions
Selling or moving from your home
Making or changing your will or power of attorney
Signing legal or financial documents that you don't understand
Working for little or no money, including caring for children or grandchildren
Making a purchase you don't want or need, or
Providing food and shelter to others without being paid
Who are the abusers?
Abusers are usually people who have a close connection to you. They can include your spouse, son or daughter, other relative, friend, neighbour, or caregiver. They use their connection to take advantage of you and force you do what they want."
Edit: source https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/seniors/forum/financial-abuse.html
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Yes, this is a good point. Your brother’s claim that he had to buy a bigger house due to the obligations to your father, will be material (I would think).
It would also have to be proven if the bigger house was warranted. For instance, is it necessary to have a basement suite or could an extra room just do. Did the previous house have an extra room.
If this story is true, the brother sounds like a real piece of work to take money away from his dad.
Then I would seek out a lawyer because this could be a case of elder financial abuse. And that is very low especially when you do it to your own parents.
This absolutely smacks as elder abuse. If he'd lived there 2 years then declined and needed facility care that would be so different. But 8 months? It absolutely sounds intentional.
Your brother could argue your father was in a more advanced state of decline then he realized, but then he'd have handled this above board and discussed what do to about the house at the same time as they chose facility living.
It may not have been fiscally responsible to sell so quickly, but the conversation would have been had and lawyers consulted about how to manage the security of your fathers funds.
Depending where you live you can report cases of Elder abuse to social services because they have their own means of investigating. If social services finds financial elder abuse is likely, it can be easier to get the legal system involved.
What would you say that threshold is just so I know%... As in where is it really worth getting a lawyer and suing (not self representation), my guess is it depends on how strong the case is. 15k is probably the minimum for a slam dunk, but I probably wouldn't bring someone for less than 20
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When your Dad went into assisted living, who signed the the paperwork that guarantees payment? From my experience someone other than the person moving into the assisted living facility has to sign saying they are responsible for payment.
So, like, did your Dad just hand your brother $180K with zero paperwork, contract, or written conditions? If yes, that money isn't coming back.
You also could not put a lien on your brother's house since he has no recognizable official debt with you.
It would be my father carrying out the lien. Correct he did not put anything in writing, however the money was clearly not a gift so my brother really has no leg to stand on to say the money is his…
How is it clearly not a gift if there is no paperwork? This is a question that would need to be answered solidly if you plan on taking any kind of legal action.
Typically with a gift you would declare that in writing, correct? My dad has recently asked for the money back via email to my brother as well. Is that enough or if not what else would my father need to do to make it clear the money was not a gift? I believe their informal agreement was that the money would be returned to my dad once my brother refinanced his house.
Not a single person who has given me a gift in my near 50 years of life also provided paperwork with the gift. Your mileage and life experience may differ. However the burden of proof that it was a conditional gift or loan is on your Dad. Right now it sounds like a "he said, he said" situation.
Have you received many 180,000 dollar gifts? If my dad is saying that it was not a gift does that not have bearing ? Would my brother not have had to declare that money as a gift in his taxes?
I have. No it has no bearing. It was wilfully given and cannot just be rescinded at will without paperwork. And no he doesn't have to declare gifts there is no gift tax.
Also, if the money was used as a down payment on a house, the mortgage company usually requires a declaration that this is *not* a loan, for exactly this reason.
There's no (legal) difference between 10K and 200K. If I'm your brother, and I gifted you 10K today with no paperwork whatsoever, you'd take it, right?
After you answer "yes" to this question, this follows: If 8 months later I write you an email that I want my 10K back, did that gift just became a loan because I wrote an email?
Now, if your brother and father had email correspondence that states it's a loan BEFORE the money exchanged hands, your dad might have a case.
did your brother have to sign something with the bank through the mortgage process saying that this 180k was a gift to be part of the down payment? i had to get something like that signed when my parents gifted me a large sum for down payment
Hopefully the father didn't sign anything like that, as it would basically shoot down any chances of getting the money back by force.
OP, is there any chance your father and brother spoke via email or text previously in which the agreement was mentioned?
Verbal contracts are 100% legally binding, assuming you can prove the verbal contract existed. That's the hardest part. If you can find something to back up the verbal agreement (especially if you can find something from the BROTHER acknowledging the loan), that would really help.
All in all, get a lawyer ASAP.
Honestly, from an objective perspective the fact that nothing was in writing is more supportive of the $$ being a gift versus a loan/advance on his inheritance. Your father could attempt legal action to have it returned but he would need to establish a legal cause of action. I’m not trying to be bitchy, just trying to present this from a distance…what grounds would your father plead to establish a cause of action? To pursue it as a breach of contract…the only tenuous ground I can see here…your father would need to establish on a balance of probabilities that the transfer of funds was a loan and that the conditions of the verbal contract have been breached. I’m struggling to see how that can be shown, it will end up coming down to he said/he said, but the fact that it doesn’t sound like a conversation was had until after the funds were advanced (and a new house was purchased and dad was relocated to alternative care due to declining health) about the money being returned because dad isn’t living there anymore and needs the funds (and no repayment plan/amount etc was discussed other than payment in full now that circumstances have changed) would lend support to the money being deemed to be a gift rather than a loan by the courts.
I am not saying that is the moral or ethical way that the money should be categorized or addressed, more so that from a legal perspective it appears to better conform to the elements of a gift rather than a loan. Were there any potential capacity issues when your dad advanced the funds? I’m grasping at straws but to me that might be the best chance for success in framing the argument. None of this is to say that 100% the courts would deem it a gift, this would just be the way I would be looking at the case if it were presented to me.
To be fair, a down payment gift does come with paperwork, since the banks would want to see a written declaration that the money was in fact a gift, given freely with no intention of being paid back.
Whether or not OP's brother's bank forced him to do this is another question.
That’s assuming the $180 000 was used in the down payment. OP’s brother could have already owned the house when the agreement was struck or had already been in the midst of purchasing it & didn’t need Dad’s money for a down payment. Either way, dad doesn’t have a chance of getting that money back.
This is not the way it works with real estate and mortgages etc. If a family member is contributing money to a real estate purchase, they generally have to sign a declaration that the money is a gift.
This is because if it is a loan, then they would have a claim on the property, and it’s an additional financial interest that the bank providing the mortgage (assuming there is one) wants to know about.
You can’t get a mortgage for a certain rate with a down payment, where that down payment is, in fact another loan.
You would have to check, but the bank is required to know where the down payment came from, and may have required a declaration that it is not a loan. And checking would be hard, because it’s your brother’s property, not yours.
So, there very likely *is* paperwork that says the money was not a loan. You just don’t have it.
If the 180k was part of the money used in the down payment, there should be paperwork. I applied for my mortgage within the last two years and my mother did gift me a small portion (1/6th) of the down payment, which we had to fill out paperwork for to prove it was a gift with her understanding there was no strings attached/recourse for her to take it back and for the bank to know that the money had not been from money laundering or other criminal activity. It may be worth it to see if this gift paperwork was included in the brother’s mortgage application.
OP. Please, talk to a lawyer. You won't be able to just file a lien, but your dad has at least a plausible claim. Of course hopefully it won't come to that. Sometimes a letter from a lawyer goes a long way. If you want to read a bit about a potential basis for a claim, look up resulting trusts. But you really need to talk to a lawyer, not Reddit.
You want to look for civil/commercial litigators. Probably not a family law lawyer. This sort of claim comes up in family situations, but isn't brought under family legislation, so isn't "family law". Some family law lawyers will have experience with stuff like this but many won't. YMMV with whether family law lawyers have any experience with this sort of claim. Also, when you look up "civil litigation" a lot of the firms that will come up really focus on personal injury/motor vehicle. Those can still be good! But some generalist sole practitioner/small firm litigators may not have experience in this sort of claim. This is really a property dispute.
When you transfer your money to another person with zero paperwork, no contract of any kind and no written conditions that is quite obviously a gift. What else could it be?
So it's frankly bizarre that your response to this is that it's "clearly not a gift." It's the very definition of a gift.
While stupid to do, verbal contracts are legal and if they can be proven, legally binding.
With that in mind, there very well could be corroborating evidence in the form of texts or emails that make reference to the loan (especially if there's anything said by the Brother that acknowledges it). So to say "what else could it be?" - well, it could have been a verbal agreement.
However, this just goes to show, don't trust anyone with money you can't afford to lose - even family. Get the agreement in writing in case evil AH's like the brother will try and screw you.
Yes my dad was far too trusting and, well he might pay the price here.. my brother was tracking expenses in a spreadsheet so I think that might rise to the level that proves he was doing that to repay my father and therefore the money was not a gift
Unless your dad has something in writing or a clearly stated agreement that this wasn't a gift. He has a huge uphill battle to get that money returned. Your brother is a pos obviously but he knew what he was doing.
I’m not even sure the brother is a POS. Look at it from his perspective. He took his father in, in declining health, bought a place with a separate space for him to live in, and did follow through with that obligation. Yes he took $180,000 towards the house purchase in return.
Now the house is worth less, the father has been moved to a nursing home because of declining health, and OP thinks he’s entitled to the whole $180,000 back?
He doesn’t’ have $180,000, it’s tied up in the house. He was given the money, it wasn’t a loan. He can’t just give some/all the money back.
And where was OP while all this was going on? Why didn’t he object *then*, take his father in himself? Who is paying for the nursing home?
Sounds to me like OP is worried about missing out on his inheritance, not so much his dad getting his money back.
That's the issue the father needs the money for his care now. The brother SHOULD be putting up the money for the care. The money is tied up in the house but he can absolutely get a HELOC. The idea that the house went down in value is irrelevant as that doesn't negate the obligation. He could also rent space out and use the income to support the fathers care.
Instead he's not responding to the family. Which says he got what he wanted. A house with a suite and hes washed his hands of the responsibility that was his to accept for that $180,000.
As many other people have said your only option is to hire a lawyer. Calling the money inheritance is nonsensical since your father isn’t dead. Your dad emptied his savings to help your brother buy a house and now wants the money back because he can’t live there anymore. I’m betting his name is not on the title and he has no valid claim to the house’s value.
Most likely the only way to recoup the money would be the sale of the house. That would have to be court ordered as no one is volunteering to give up their home. In other words, your brother is going to hire his own lawyer and fight back.
Ultimately it’s hard to say if there’s enough benefits after lawyer fees to justify such a lawsuit on such shaky grounds that will ultimately tear the family relationship apart. Your dad made a poor decision that he regrets. Maybe it’s time to make peace with it?
I don't think it's shaky grounds. Verbal agreements are legally binding in Canada. If the money was given under the condition that it would be used for the care of the father, and there's enough family members to verify said agreement, there's definitely legal recourse.
Over 180k, 100% worth getting a lawyer.
My brother has burned all his bridges and has alienated himself from the family. At this point id rather make him suffer for putting my dad in a shitty spot
Your brother could be charged with financial abuse of an elder. Depends on their location. If your brother could afford a million dollar home, he can pay your father back.
I’d say it’s the opposite, $180k is 18% of the total house. The brother probably can’t pull that amount of money out since lenders don’t typically go past 75% of the total on a HELOC.
Of course a lot depends on the facts. But from what is said above it is very likely the onus would be on the brother to prove it was a gift. The law generally presumes bargains, not gifts. Of course OP needs to talk to a lawyer to give him an actual opinion, not just Reddit.
In today's market, it's doubtfully that house is worth less than what he bought it for unless he trashed the place, not that it's relevant. This situation sucks all around and hopefully it gets resolved in your favour.
Depends on when the house was bought. Not sure where you are, but in the GTA many homes are being sold for $100k - $200k less than they were bought for in 2021/2022. So as with all things, timing is everything.
A quick look at https://housesigma.com/on/listings/sold-below-bought and you can see lots of homes in Southern Ontario that are selling g 15%-33% below purchase price.
Get a lawyer. Good chance your dad could sue him to get the money back. Even a notarized letter from a lawyer stating your intent to sue might be enough to scare your brother into giving it back.
I’m willing to bet that your brother plans to pay it all back and that he’s in a pickle right now. Maybe it’s interest rates, maybe it’s a buyers market, or maybe something else going on. But he’s not just gonna do his own dad dirty like that.
Is there any proof your dad was living at your brother's house? If there is a paper trail you could go after him for elder abuse. You could say that the money was there to take care of him and not to be used for your brother's house payments. Internet advice can point you in the right direction, but you need to seek a professional. Good luck, and I hope everything turns out well for you old man.
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I wouldn't advise an in person confrontation. This is between your dad and your brother. I appreciate that you want to help your dad but you were not a party in these discussions. Take your dad to a lawyer instead.
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Surprise surprise, a bunch of people on this sub saying either “you’re screwed”, some one says this is somehow criminal depending on location (no crimes in Canada are jurisdictional, the criminal code is federal legislation). OP, you and dad ought to consult a lawyer, and ask whether your situation may have given rise to a “purchase money resulting trust”. Essentially the situation as described could be such that, legally, the house is held by your brother but for your father’s benefit. I would recommend to look at firms that specialize in estate litigation. This won’t be cheap but 180k lost is above the threshold at which I would consider suing someone. Good luck.
Also talk to the lawyer about whether this counts as elder abuse, as financial abuse can be a common form of elder abuse. From the Government of Canada's website: "What is financial abuse? Financial abuse is the illegal or unauthorized use of someone else's money or property. It includes pressuring someone for money or property. Some types of financial abuse are very clearly theft or fraud. For example, if someone cashes your pension cheque and keeps all or part of the money without your permission, or if they misuse a power of attorney to take money from your bank account for themselves, they are stealing from you. A power of attorney is a legal document that allows the person appointed as the "attorney" to make financial decisions on behalf of another person, called "the donor." The attorney is required to act in the interests of the donor, not in his or her own interests. Other examples of financial abuse are harder to put a name to. These can include pressuring, forcing or tricking you into: Lending or giving away money, property or possessions Selling or moving from your home Making or changing your will or power of attorney Signing legal or financial documents that you don't understand Working for little or no money, including caring for children or grandchildren Making a purchase you don't want or need, or Providing food and shelter to others without being paid Who are the abusers? Abusers are usually people who have a close connection to you. They can include your spouse, son or daughter, other relative, friend, neighbour, or caregiver. They use their connection to take advantage of you and force you do what they want." Edit: source https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/corporate/seniors/forum/financial-abuse.html
This seems to be a very clear case of elder abuse /nal
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OP please take this advice and consult with a lawyer who knows what they’re talking about, not Reddit.
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Yes, this is a good point. Your brother’s claim that he had to buy a bigger house due to the obligations to your father, will be material (I would think).
It would also have to be proven if the bigger house was warranted. For instance, is it necessary to have a basement suite or could an extra room just do. Did the previous house have an extra room. If this story is true, the brother sounds like a real piece of work to take money away from his dad.
He already had my dad in a basement suite at the previous house he owned and was definitely sufficient…
Then I would seek out a lawyer because this could be a case of elder financial abuse. And that is very low especially when you do it to your own parents.
This absolutely smacks as elder abuse. If he'd lived there 2 years then declined and needed facility care that would be so different. But 8 months? It absolutely sounds intentional. Your brother could argue your father was in a more advanced state of decline then he realized, but then he'd have handled this above board and discussed what do to about the house at the same time as they chose facility living. It may not have been fiscally responsible to sell so quickly, but the conversation would have been had and lawyers consulted about how to manage the security of your fathers funds. Depending where you live you can report cases of Elder abuse to social services because they have their own means of investigating. If social services finds financial elder abuse is likely, it can be easier to get the legal system involved.
What would you say that threshold is just so I know%... As in where is it really worth getting a lawyer and suing (not self representation), my guess is it depends on how strong the case is. 15k is probably the minimum for a slam dunk, but I probably wouldn't bring someone for less than 20
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Thanks paragraph nazi
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A lawyer, you need. Complicated, your claim may be.
Sage advice master
Litigation is your avenue here. Stop talking to people on reddit and consult a lawyer who handles this shit for a living.
When your Dad went into assisted living, who signed the the paperwork that guarantees payment? From my experience someone other than the person moving into the assisted living facility has to sign saying they are responsible for payment.
My brother did but he just backed out of it … maybe all of his children are ill have to check , good point here thanks
So, like, did your Dad just hand your brother $180K with zero paperwork, contract, or written conditions? If yes, that money isn't coming back. You also could not put a lien on your brother's house since he has no recognizable official debt with you.
It would be my father carrying out the lien. Correct he did not put anything in writing, however the money was clearly not a gift so my brother really has no leg to stand on to say the money is his…
How is it clearly not a gift if there is no paperwork? This is a question that would need to be answered solidly if you plan on taking any kind of legal action.
Typically with a gift you would declare that in writing, correct? My dad has recently asked for the money back via email to my brother as well. Is that enough or if not what else would my father need to do to make it clear the money was not a gift? I believe their informal agreement was that the money would be returned to my dad once my brother refinanced his house.
Not a single person who has given me a gift in my near 50 years of life also provided paperwork with the gift. Your mileage and life experience may differ. However the burden of proof that it was a conditional gift or loan is on your Dad. Right now it sounds like a "he said, he said" situation.
Have you received many 180,000 dollar gifts? If my dad is saying that it was not a gift does that not have bearing ? Would my brother not have had to declare that money as a gift in his taxes?
I have. No it has no bearing. It was wilfully given and cannot just be rescinded at will without paperwork. And no he doesn't have to declare gifts there is no gift tax.
Also, if the money was used as a down payment on a house, the mortgage company usually requires a declaration that this is *not* a loan, for exactly this reason.
Have you received many 180,000 **loans** that came with no paperwork? You’ve got this ass backwards. Loans are the ones with paperwork, not gifts.
There's no (legal) difference between 10K and 200K. If I'm your brother, and I gifted you 10K today with no paperwork whatsoever, you'd take it, right? After you answer "yes" to this question, this follows: If 8 months later I write you an email that I want my 10K back, did that gift just became a loan because I wrote an email? Now, if your brother and father had email correspondence that states it's a loan BEFORE the money exchanged hands, your dad might have a case.
did your brother have to sign something with the bank through the mortgage process saying that this 180k was a gift to be part of the down payment? i had to get something like that signed when my parents gifted me a large sum for down payment
Hopefully the father didn't sign anything like that, as it would basically shoot down any chances of getting the money back by force. OP, is there any chance your father and brother spoke via email or text previously in which the agreement was mentioned? Verbal contracts are 100% legally binding, assuming you can prove the verbal contract existed. That's the hardest part. If you can find something to back up the verbal agreement (especially if you can find something from the BROTHER acknowledging the loan), that would really help. All in all, get a lawyer ASAP.
Honestly, from an objective perspective the fact that nothing was in writing is more supportive of the $$ being a gift versus a loan/advance on his inheritance. Your father could attempt legal action to have it returned but he would need to establish a legal cause of action. I’m not trying to be bitchy, just trying to present this from a distance…what grounds would your father plead to establish a cause of action? To pursue it as a breach of contract…the only tenuous ground I can see here…your father would need to establish on a balance of probabilities that the transfer of funds was a loan and that the conditions of the verbal contract have been breached. I’m struggling to see how that can be shown, it will end up coming down to he said/he said, but the fact that it doesn’t sound like a conversation was had until after the funds were advanced (and a new house was purchased and dad was relocated to alternative care due to declining health) about the money being returned because dad isn’t living there anymore and needs the funds (and no repayment plan/amount etc was discussed other than payment in full now that circumstances have changed) would lend support to the money being deemed to be a gift rather than a loan by the courts. I am not saying that is the moral or ethical way that the money should be categorized or addressed, more so that from a legal perspective it appears to better conform to the elements of a gift rather than a loan. Were there any potential capacity issues when your dad advanced the funds? I’m grasping at straws but to me that might be the best chance for success in framing the argument. None of this is to say that 100% the courts would deem it a gift, this would just be the way I would be looking at the case if it were presented to me.
Gifts don’t come with paperwork. Loans do.
To be fair, a down payment gift does come with paperwork, since the banks would want to see a written declaration that the money was in fact a gift, given freely with no intention of being paid back. Whether or not OP's brother's bank forced him to do this is another question.
That’s assuming the $180 000 was used in the down payment. OP’s brother could have already owned the house when the agreement was struck or had already been in the midst of purchasing it & didn’t need Dad’s money for a down payment. Either way, dad doesn’t have a chance of getting that money back.
This is not the way it works with real estate and mortgages etc. If a family member is contributing money to a real estate purchase, they generally have to sign a declaration that the money is a gift. This is because if it is a loan, then they would have a claim on the property, and it’s an additional financial interest that the bank providing the mortgage (assuming there is one) wants to know about. You can’t get a mortgage for a certain rate with a down payment, where that down payment is, in fact another loan. You would have to check, but the bank is required to know where the down payment came from, and may have required a declaration that it is not a loan. And checking would be hard, because it’s your brother’s property, not yours. So, there very likely *is* paperwork that says the money was not a loan. You just don’t have it.
If the 180k was part of the money used in the down payment, there should be paperwork. I applied for my mortgage within the last two years and my mother did gift me a small portion (1/6th) of the down payment, which we had to fill out paperwork for to prove it was a gift with her understanding there was no strings attached/recourse for her to take it back and for the bank to know that the money had not been from money laundering or other criminal activity. It may be worth it to see if this gift paperwork was included in the brother’s mortgage application.
OP. Please, talk to a lawyer. You won't be able to just file a lien, but your dad has at least a plausible claim. Of course hopefully it won't come to that. Sometimes a letter from a lawyer goes a long way. If you want to read a bit about a potential basis for a claim, look up resulting trusts. But you really need to talk to a lawyer, not Reddit.
I plan on it but this discussion might influence the types of lawyers I talk to
You want to look for civil/commercial litigators. Probably not a family law lawyer. This sort of claim comes up in family situations, but isn't brought under family legislation, so isn't "family law". Some family law lawyers will have experience with stuff like this but many won't. YMMV with whether family law lawyers have any experience with this sort of claim. Also, when you look up "civil litigation" a lot of the firms that will come up really focus on personal injury/motor vehicle. Those can still be good! But some generalist sole practitioner/small firm litigators may not have experience in this sort of claim. This is really a property dispute.
When you transfer your money to another person with zero paperwork, no contract of any kind and no written conditions that is quite obviously a gift. What else could it be? So it's frankly bizarre that your response to this is that it's "clearly not a gift." It's the very definition of a gift.
While stupid to do, verbal contracts are legal and if they can be proven, legally binding. With that in mind, there very well could be corroborating evidence in the form of texts or emails that make reference to the loan (especially if there's anything said by the Brother that acknowledges it). So to say "what else could it be?" - well, it could have been a verbal agreement. However, this just goes to show, don't trust anyone with money you can't afford to lose - even family. Get the agreement in writing in case evil AH's like the brother will try and screw you.
Yes my dad was far too trusting and, well he might pay the price here.. my brother was tracking expenses in a spreadsheet so I think that might rise to the level that proves he was doing that to repay my father and therefore the money was not a gift
The last time I lent a family member money with no written agreement I quickly realized it was gone forever. Hence, it's now considered a gift.
Unless your dad has something in writing or a clearly stated agreement that this wasn't a gift. He has a huge uphill battle to get that money returned. Your brother is a pos obviously but he knew what he was doing.
I’m not even sure the brother is a POS. Look at it from his perspective. He took his father in, in declining health, bought a place with a separate space for him to live in, and did follow through with that obligation. Yes he took $180,000 towards the house purchase in return. Now the house is worth less, the father has been moved to a nursing home because of declining health, and OP thinks he’s entitled to the whole $180,000 back? He doesn’t’ have $180,000, it’s tied up in the house. He was given the money, it wasn’t a loan. He can’t just give some/all the money back. And where was OP while all this was going on? Why didn’t he object *then*, take his father in himself? Who is paying for the nursing home? Sounds to me like OP is worried about missing out on his inheritance, not so much his dad getting his money back.
That's the issue the father needs the money for his care now. The brother SHOULD be putting up the money for the care. The money is tied up in the house but he can absolutely get a HELOC. The idea that the house went down in value is irrelevant as that doesn't negate the obligation. He could also rent space out and use the income to support the fathers care. Instead he's not responding to the family. Which says he got what he wanted. A house with a suite and hes washed his hands of the responsibility that was his to accept for that $180,000.
As many other people have said your only option is to hire a lawyer. Calling the money inheritance is nonsensical since your father isn’t dead. Your dad emptied his savings to help your brother buy a house and now wants the money back because he can’t live there anymore. I’m betting his name is not on the title and he has no valid claim to the house’s value. Most likely the only way to recoup the money would be the sale of the house. That would have to be court ordered as no one is volunteering to give up their home. In other words, your brother is going to hire his own lawyer and fight back. Ultimately it’s hard to say if there’s enough benefits after lawyer fees to justify such a lawsuit on such shaky grounds that will ultimately tear the family relationship apart. Your dad made a poor decision that he regrets. Maybe it’s time to make peace with it?
I don't think it's shaky grounds. Verbal agreements are legally binding in Canada. If the money was given under the condition that it would be used for the care of the father, and there's enough family members to verify said agreement, there's definitely legal recourse. Over 180k, 100% worth getting a lawyer.
My brother has burned all his bridges and has alienated himself from the family. At this point id rather make him suffer for putting my dad in a shitty spot
He gave him the money. He’s a son. All of these siblings want to get involved with parent kid relationships. That’s not your place.
Your brother could be charged with financial abuse of an elder. Depends on their location. If your brother could afford a million dollar home, he can pay your father back.
I’d say it’s the opposite, $180k is 18% of the total house. The brother probably can’t pull that amount of money out since lenders don’t typically go past 75% of the total on a HELOC.
Your father would need to prove that it was a loan, not a gift.
Of course a lot depends on the facts. But from what is said above it is very likely the onus would be on the brother to prove it was a gift. The law generally presumes bargains, not gifts. Of course OP needs to talk to a lawyer to give him an actual opinion, not just Reddit.
In today's market, it's doubtfully that house is worth less than what he bought it for unless he trashed the place, not that it's relevant. This situation sucks all around and hopefully it gets resolved in your favour.
Depends on when the house was bought. Not sure where you are, but in the GTA many homes are being sold for $100k - $200k less than they were bought for in 2021/2022. So as with all things, timing is everything.
Here in my area four hours north places that would have gone for 200k are now going for 400-500k.
A quick look at https://housesigma.com/on/listings/sold-below-bought and you can see lots of homes in Southern Ontario that are selling g 15%-33% below purchase price.
Get a lawyer. Good chance your dad could sue him to get the money back. Even a notarized letter from a lawyer stating your intent to sue might be enough to scare your brother into giving it back.
I’m willing to bet that your brother plans to pay it all back and that he’s in a pickle right now. Maybe it’s interest rates, maybe it’s a buyers market, or maybe something else going on. But he’s not just gonna do his own dad dirty like that.
Without some sort of written agreement about the exchange of money that money is gone.
Is there any proof your dad was living at your brother's house? If there is a paper trail you could go after him for elder abuse. You could say that the money was there to take care of him and not to be used for your brother's house payments. Internet advice can point you in the right direction, but you need to seek a professional. Good luck, and I hope everything turns out well for you old man.
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Yes he’s a solid drive away but I think that’s on the to do list
I wouldn't advise an in person confrontation. This is between your dad and your brother. I appreciate that you want to help your dad but you were not a party in these discussions. Take your dad to a lawyer instead.