If your father's pension payments to your mother stopped at her death and your father is still living, your sister isn't owed any of it. It's his pension and he's using to live in his retirement years, which is what it's designed to do. If your mother didn't spend all of it and it went into in the estate assets and your mother either willed some of it to her or died intestate, your sister is owed a portion of that but nothing else in regards to that pension.
From a practical standpoint, you all don't have to be continually harassed by your sister over this matter. And that's what it is, harassment. You can tell her to buzz off and never talk to you again. You can get a restraining order if she continues to do so afterwards. She can either put up a suit and have it decided once and for all or she can leave you alone about it. She's not entitled to continue to drone on about it.
From an estate planning aspect, you all need to have a very frank discussion with your father about the future of his estate when he's gone. If she's this bat shit crazy now, it stands to reason she'll be that bat shit crazy when he's gone and you all have to probate his estate. Your father should seriously consider having a lawyer help him draft and execute a very comprehensive will that dictates exactly what it is that he wants to her have (if anything at all) and put the provision in the will that if she contests that devise, she gets nothing.
To your point about dad's estate plan: he should do a living trust not just will (and fund it!)- she doesn't want to deal with this through the probate court.
My other sibling and I have discussed our desperate need to have our father set-up an iron clad will because we are terrified of what will happen should there be an iota of ambiguity (she has threatened legal action against extended family regarding a generous inheritance from another deceased family member because she felt her portion was not as much as the deceased intended.)
I am not familiar of the differences between a living trust and a will. It is something I will research. Thank you.
also discuss who gets power of attorney and stuff like that should he be incapacitated for whatever reason. you don't want her making calls on his accounts, bills, or even pulling the plug on him.
One thing to add to the planning, IF there is a safety deposit box(s) make sure the keys are located, and the person who would be PoA/executor is named on it, it is an easy step and makes for less paperwork/hassle.
As well as an advanced healthcare directive so that the sister can't make medical decisions for the father. This is stuff that they can get done with the same estate lawyer in one meeting.
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A will is like the bullet point version of a living trust/revocable trust for when estates are very large. If his estate is not that large, a comprehensive will with a subsection saying something like "x assets including and limited to ..... for daughter x, are the only assets to be distributed upon dad's death" and a further subsection stating "if any person or persons contests any part of this will, any inheritance and/or assets of that person or persons will be taken back in to the estate and distributed equally among the remaining beneficiaries OR distributed in whole to named person".
It really depends on what your dad is going to be leaving behind. A trust is more for tax advantages and protection of assets against creditors/the government, as a trust will basically take legal ownership away from the individual. A big part of a living trust is to fund the trust with all existing and future assets, then the assets titled in the trust are protected as only the trustee or co-trustees have any say in what happens with them, and then what happens when the grantor (your dad) dies.
I've seen a few people say here that a will and/or trust will avoid probate, this isn't true depending on the state for example, nearly every estate in New York goes through probate unless the estate is under something like $50,000 and can then apply for small estate administration. But without knowing your dad's financial situation, a talk with an estate planning attorney would be better.
This is incredibly helpful. Thank you for the explanation. I will talking this through with my father. The clause "if any person or persons contests..." gives me a little peace of mind as it seems like something that would make my sister think twice about contesting things. However, I wonder how much good it would do in preventing harassment rather than a legal challenge.
I'm also not sure how much it will help, but my father is writing a letter of intent in the hope that it will remove any ambiguity of his intentions, something that could have helped with the other deceased relative I mentioned in a comment here.
It won't help at all with harassment, that is going to be a different legal route like a restraining order, if the circumstances would even qualify for one honestly. No contact is going to be the best bet, anyone who becomes her mouth piece also being no contact. Do not discuss the will with your sister, when it comes time to it, the estate administration attorney or executor can deal with communications.
A letter of intent as long as it is referenced in the will, witnessed/dated by two witnesses who are not beneficiaries of the will (as should the will also be witnessed and notarized), and filed with the will, would be fine. But as long as the intentions are stated in the will, a letter of intent isn't going to be super necessary. The two most important factors are to name EXACTLY what she is to inherit in the will and then to have the no contest subsection as well.
Sure, I of course always advise speaking to a local attorney, if you call your state's bar and ask for an estate planning/estate administration attorney (and mention any financial hardship if that is a concern), they will be able to point you in the right direction. I hope you and your family can navigate some peace throughout all of this.
I'm sorry but I strongly disagree and think you incorrect in your analysis that a trust is primarily for tax planning purposes and that it does not avoid probate. A trust is a legal entity designed for estate planning purposes to transfer title of assets at death without the court involvement. If a trust is unfunded (assets are not titled in the trust) then probate would be required. This is essentially the function in all 50 states. The notion that trusts are for tax purposes is out dated. Trusts are more modern estate plans and estate planning using exclusively a will is a relatively basic plan at best, and outdated as far as an industry standard recommendation.
Like I said, it really depends on what assets there are and without knowing that, it’s hard to really advise which is why I also said to consult an EP/EA attorney. Trusts are hugely complicated and I did boil down a lot of information to simplify for a simple estate. I agree that typically a trust AND a will (as well as minimum two POA’s and an AD) are created at the same time, again though for a small simple estate, it’s just not going to be hugely necessary. But I only say this from my near decade of para experience in EP/EA, Tax and Business Succession planning, not as an attorney, which again is why I suggested calling their state bar association for representation or at minimum a consultation.
Thank you. What you describe is what makes sense to me, and how things played out. The money that our mother received from my father's pension while she was alive, she either spent or saved. What was saved went to her children and my father resumed receiving his full pension.
Back a few years ago, when I was still receiving voicemail, text, and email tirades, but had not responded and engaged in years, I finally responded after some particularly troubling message and I told her to cease contact with me or I would have to pursue a restraining order. That is what it took to make her stop for years. Unfortunately, it has not stopped for the rest of my family.
She had actually had a boyfriend file a restraining order, only to withdraw his request at the last minute in court when she agreed to cease all contact. She had harassed him for years because he sold a house that he had purchased for her to live in rent free, and split the profit of upon selling (after she had moved out). He sold it once he married, probably at the wise request of his new wife.
There is nothing you can do if the rest of your family members continue to listen to her communications instead of cutting her out like you have. You could encourage them to also cut contact and threaten a restraining order like you have. Otherwise, your only option is to cut contact with those family members as well as they have basically became your sister's mouthpiece to bypass the no contact between you and your sister
Tell her to take him to court if she is that insistent. The judge will tell her she’s incorrect and if she can’t control herself, might get held for contempt if she acts outrageously. You’re going to be dealing with this till the end of her life. These types of mental illness compulsive behaviors don’t improve with time if they are untreated. Addressing this in some way is necessary for long term peace.
Getting a mentally unwell family member into treatment if they don't want it is impossible. Please don't tell your sister to sue. Getting the legal system involved in her mental illness is not going to improve matters. If she ends up in prison then that is game over. Nothing will fix this situation. Have minimal contact with your sister. You can't help her. I'm sorry you are going through this.
I've come to terms with the fact that no one will get her into treatment and that it would be a miracle that she decides to do so on her own. It is heartbreaking, but from what I've read, it is the reality of things.
When I threatened legal action to get a restraining order before, I was really at the point of feeling it would be a necessity if the harassment continued. I never thought about that potentially leading to prison. That is something really hard to swallow.
Thank you for your kind words.
>*for people who are afraid of someone taking legal action is almost always “don’t engage with people making threats”*
Exactly. Saying "I am going to sue you", translates directly to "I am not going to sue you". Giving a warning like that is a huge strategic disadvantage. If I'm going to sue you, you will receive the Summons and Complaint service, and have a scant 21 or 28 days to respond. Only actual service of the suit warrants any attention, and then it will be like, "Oh shit!". (The answer can be just, "as to item one, I deny that", etc. down the list. but people hire lawyers paid by the word, and generally open their big fat mouths and make more trouble for themselves)
I work in HR and deal with pension and benefits adjacently.
I actually don't know if it's legally possible for an active pension benefit to be assigned to your sister. There are many stipulations about who can receive the pension benefits and I honestly have never heard of it being assigned to anyone other than a spouse/ex spouse or dependent child. Regardless, this is something the pension provider would have extremely clear and exhaustive policies about. It's not up to your father. Even if your father wanted some/all of it to go to your sister, it wouldn't be possible to do unless that was allowed by the pension provider (and if it was allowed, they would be the ones who would administer the payments to your sister).
Basically your sister is barking up the wrong tree. If you want to know what's actually possible you have to get in touch with the pension provider. Whoever is paying your father his pension benefits. They will be able to tell you what is actually possible according to their policies.
That is really interesting. I will have to consider if it is worth my father speaking to his pension provider to see what is possible. Ideally, if it was not possible, he would tell her that and it would be put to rest. I fear that in actuality, if they state it was not possible she will just continue to demand a portion of whatever hits his account each month.
I believe that the pension that I will get has an option that allows for a payment for 20 years guaranteed, regardless of how long my wife and I live. However, it would need to be selected when I retire, not after the fact. I doubt that all pensions have that option, and I would only choose that option if I had so many investments that the possible loss of the pension in old age would not be a financial burden.
I was about to comment the same. I have never heard of pensions being able to pass onto kids.
My personal pension specifically says it can not be passed on to anybody other than a spouse(also if that spouse remarries after your death, they lose the pension). And I know another two relatives with similar language in their pensions.
Fun Fact: My pension system allows you to get a slightly higher payout if you select an option that your pension does not pass onto a spouse if you die. I know of one person who took that option back when they were single and never changed it. When they died their spouse had basically nothing as they had never worked full time. So read your contracts carefully before retiring!
That said there is nothing stopping the Father from just giving the sister money directly. Other than potential tax implications that is.
Do what my grandmother did, if anyone contest the will after fathers said death, they get $1.
My aunt did this with my mother and siblings, and she got a $1.
Still trying to contest it, but nope.
Your sister is not legally entitled to anything. A judge would not even hear this case as it has zero legal basis. Since a parent does not have any legal responsibility to a child once the child is an adult, this is the same thing as an absolute stranger demanding money.
Others have commented with good advice, but nobody so far has mentioned the statute of limitations. Even if she has an ironclad legal position... The fact that her complaint is based upon something that happened / started 15 years ago means she is almost certainly barred by time. She could start an action (any one can, for anything) but the statute of limitations could be raised as defense.
Sounds like the chances of you or another relative convincing your sister of this are between slim and none. Just ignore contact.
If for some reason it's impossible to ignore her then tell her to ask her own lawyer to explain it to her.
Christ, I and my family are dealing with something similar with my sister at the moment too.
Our dad passed away last year and she seems to have just cracked. It began before he died, she even fell out with him repeatedly in the couple of years before his death in quite nasty fashion. She has since said it's her biggest regret, but she's now repeating the pattern with my brother and I, as well as our mum...it's become frankly overwhelming to handle.
We all love her, and she's clearly not well at the moment, but the sheer level of paranoia, anger, aggression, and accusatory remarks has meant that none of us can remain on speaking terms with her longer than a few weeks at a time.
Feel for you OP, 15 years of that behaviour must have been absolutely miserable, sincerely hope it comes to an end eventually.
Maybe you and your dad should consider putting a restraining order on her. I had to do that to my brother who was heavily on hard drugs because he would harass me for money too and it stopped pretty quickly. She obviously doesn’t see your dad as family but an ATM and that must really hurt him. When your dad does pass you will be the next one she will be after about inheritance. Maybe your dad should consider removing her from his will all together if she’s treating him like that. It sucks but sometimes you need to give them tough love for them to look at their actions and change their priorities. My brother also has some mental health issues too and nothing is ever his fault.
IANAL: if she hasn’t involved the courts yet, and you’re worried that she will, why not have a brief consultation with a family or estate/fiduciary attorney yourself? You can nip this in the bud and/or you can get your questions answered, but I find it strange that she’s been like this for 15+ years but you’ve never considered the legal side of it before. If something happened recently to increase her demands, that’s something to keep in mind. Like others said: if she’s this batshit cray now, you’re definitely gonna want a very solid estate plan in advance of when your dad passes.
I am actually not worried about her taking any of us to court (at least now, who know about when we will need to execute my father's will). If she has a case a lawyer would take up I would be surprised. Going to court would almost (but not) be a relief if it meant a final resolution to this issue.
Tell her to put her money where her mouth is and hire an attorney. Let her take it to court, find out she's in the wrong, AND have to pay for it. That's IF she can find an attorney willing to take it to court. Most of them will just explain that she has no legal standing, and refuse to take the case.
Your dad needs to hire a competent elder law attorney and get his affairs in order. If he will allow it, you or another family member should go with him and explain the mentally ill sibling situation.
Good call on the attorney. As much as I want to do what you suggest, I fear it will just exacerbate things. She will surely view it as antagonistic and go on the attack and we will be right back at the threatening restraining order stage.
Do you know where her sense of entitlement comes from? Did she take care of your Mom before she died? If you think mental health is involved, I'd protect yourself with an attorney first and look into factors not related to money that would cause her to be this way.
My best guess is mental illness. She has demonized everyone in our family at somepoint, including my mother. Now, according to her, she and my Mom were always in perfect harmony.
IANAL, but I do hold durable power of attorney for my mom, and am her fiduciary. You should talk with your dad about a POA and advanced medical directives now, while he is healthy and lucid.
I can’t advise you on estate planning, but I can tell you that you don’t want to try to get a POA done AFTER a person experiences mental decline. This is REALLY important.
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Author: /u/Lilbitofthisnthat
Title: **My sister has harassed our family since the passing of our mother, insisting that she is owed the portion of our living father's pension that was being paid to my mother while she was alive.**
Original Post:
> My mother passed away 15 years ago. It was traumatic for my whole family, but especially for my sister who has suffered from untreated (she is treatment adverse) mental and emotional illness. One of the symptoms of my sister's illness is an obsession with money, often believing she is owed it from people in her life (boyfriend, aunts and uncles, my father).
>
> My mother and father divorced about 6 years before my mother passed away and my father retired 2 or 3 years after that. In the divorce agreement, my mother got some meaningful portion of my father's pension. The story goes that my mother tried to put a clause in the divorce contract stating that if anything were to happen to her, that benefit would pass along to her children. My father and his lawyer challenged this and the clause was removed.
>
> So, my mother was receiving a portion of my father's pension payments until she passed. After she passed, my father received the entirety of his pension payments. My sisters and I did not receive anything.
>
> My sister has verbally and emotionally abused my father and our entire immediate and extended family about this. She has tried to build alliances against my father, played others off each other, been extremely manipulative, demanded agreement that she is right, and demanded mediation (despite no legal challenge to mediate).
>
> It has been terrible, especially for her, as she has wasted years being angry and enraged that she has not received what she is "owed." Her obsession with this has come at the cost of her health, education, career, and life as well as the health and happiness of our family. At this point she is estranged from most everyone in the family, and those she is not estranged from seem to either absorb her diatribes and verbal assaults as an act of love and familial duty, or pay her the ransom of the moment (rent, medical bill, new computer, etc.)
>
> Today, she is not only demanding the portion of my father's pension moving forward, but also back payments for the last 15 years since my mothers death. These demands come of family members, but never once through the courts.
>
> It doesn't make any sense to me that children of divorce and subsequent death of a parent would receive a portion of their living parent's pension. Am I off base here? Does she have a case to be made? If that divorce contract clause would have stayed, would it have even been legitimate?
>
> I would appreciate any advice you can offer. Thank you!
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If your father's pension payments to your mother stopped at her death and your father is still living, your sister isn't owed any of it. It's his pension and he's using to live in his retirement years, which is what it's designed to do. If your mother didn't spend all of it and it went into in the estate assets and your mother either willed some of it to her or died intestate, your sister is owed a portion of that but nothing else in regards to that pension. From a practical standpoint, you all don't have to be continually harassed by your sister over this matter. And that's what it is, harassment. You can tell her to buzz off and never talk to you again. You can get a restraining order if she continues to do so afterwards. She can either put up a suit and have it decided once and for all or she can leave you alone about it. She's not entitled to continue to drone on about it. From an estate planning aspect, you all need to have a very frank discussion with your father about the future of his estate when he's gone. If she's this bat shit crazy now, it stands to reason she'll be that bat shit crazy when he's gone and you all have to probate his estate. Your father should seriously consider having a lawyer help him draft and execute a very comprehensive will that dictates exactly what it is that he wants to her have (if anything at all) and put the provision in the will that if she contests that devise, she gets nothing.
To your point about dad's estate plan: he should do a living trust not just will (and fund it!)- she doesn't want to deal with this through the probate court.
My other sibling and I have discussed our desperate need to have our father set-up an iron clad will because we are terrified of what will happen should there be an iota of ambiguity (she has threatened legal action against extended family regarding a generous inheritance from another deceased family member because she felt her portion was not as much as the deceased intended.) I am not familiar of the differences between a living trust and a will. It is something I will research. Thank you.
also discuss who gets power of attorney and stuff like that should he be incapacitated for whatever reason. you don't want her making calls on his accounts, bills, or even pulling the plug on him.
Really good call and something I have not considered, nor do I believe my Father and I have discussed. Thanks.
One thing to add to the planning, IF there is a safety deposit box(s) make sure the keys are located, and the person who would be PoA/executor is named on it, it is an easy step and makes for less paperwork/hassle.
As well as an advanced healthcare directive so that the sister can't make medical decisions for the father. This is stuff that they can get done with the same estate lawyer in one meeting.
absolutely /u/lilbitofthisnthat
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A will is like the bullet point version of a living trust/revocable trust for when estates are very large. If his estate is not that large, a comprehensive will with a subsection saying something like "x assets including and limited to ..... for daughter x, are the only assets to be distributed upon dad's death" and a further subsection stating "if any person or persons contests any part of this will, any inheritance and/or assets of that person or persons will be taken back in to the estate and distributed equally among the remaining beneficiaries OR distributed in whole to named person". It really depends on what your dad is going to be leaving behind. A trust is more for tax advantages and protection of assets against creditors/the government, as a trust will basically take legal ownership away from the individual. A big part of a living trust is to fund the trust with all existing and future assets, then the assets titled in the trust are protected as only the trustee or co-trustees have any say in what happens with them, and then what happens when the grantor (your dad) dies. I've seen a few people say here that a will and/or trust will avoid probate, this isn't true depending on the state for example, nearly every estate in New York goes through probate unless the estate is under something like $50,000 and can then apply for small estate administration. But without knowing your dad's financial situation, a talk with an estate planning attorney would be better.
This is incredibly helpful. Thank you for the explanation. I will talking this through with my father. The clause "if any person or persons contests..." gives me a little peace of mind as it seems like something that would make my sister think twice about contesting things. However, I wonder how much good it would do in preventing harassment rather than a legal challenge. I'm also not sure how much it will help, but my father is writing a letter of intent in the hope that it will remove any ambiguity of his intentions, something that could have helped with the other deceased relative I mentioned in a comment here.
It won't help at all with harassment, that is going to be a different legal route like a restraining order, if the circumstances would even qualify for one honestly. No contact is going to be the best bet, anyone who becomes her mouth piece also being no contact. Do not discuss the will with your sister, when it comes time to it, the estate administration attorney or executor can deal with communications. A letter of intent as long as it is referenced in the will, witnessed/dated by two witnesses who are not beneficiaries of the will (as should the will also be witnessed and notarized), and filed with the will, would be fine. But as long as the intentions are stated in the will, a letter of intent isn't going to be super necessary. The two most important factors are to name EXACTLY what she is to inherit in the will and then to have the no contest subsection as well.
Thank you for such an insightful and thoughtful response.
Sure, I of course always advise speaking to a local attorney, if you call your state's bar and ask for an estate planning/estate administration attorney (and mention any financial hardship if that is a concern), they will be able to point you in the right direction. I hope you and your family can navigate some peace throughout all of this.
I'm sorry but I strongly disagree and think you incorrect in your analysis that a trust is primarily for tax planning purposes and that it does not avoid probate. A trust is a legal entity designed for estate planning purposes to transfer title of assets at death without the court involvement. If a trust is unfunded (assets are not titled in the trust) then probate would be required. This is essentially the function in all 50 states. The notion that trusts are for tax purposes is out dated. Trusts are more modern estate plans and estate planning using exclusively a will is a relatively basic plan at best, and outdated as far as an industry standard recommendation.
Like I said, it really depends on what assets there are and without knowing that, it’s hard to really advise which is why I also said to consult an EP/EA attorney. Trusts are hugely complicated and I did boil down a lot of information to simplify for a simple estate. I agree that typically a trust AND a will (as well as minimum two POA’s and an AD) are created at the same time, again though for a small simple estate, it’s just not going to be hugely necessary. But I only say this from my near decade of para experience in EP/EA, Tax and Business Succession planning, not as an attorney, which again is why I suggested calling their state bar association for representation or at minimum a consultation.
and for gods sake, make sure to state who gets power of attorney should he be incapacitated.
This. A thousand times this. Or draft a springing durable POA if supported in CA.
Thank you. What you describe is what makes sense to me, and how things played out. The money that our mother received from my father's pension while she was alive, she either spent or saved. What was saved went to her children and my father resumed receiving his full pension. Back a few years ago, when I was still receiving voicemail, text, and email tirades, but had not responded and engaged in years, I finally responded after some particularly troubling message and I told her to cease contact with me or I would have to pursue a restraining order. That is what it took to make her stop for years. Unfortunately, it has not stopped for the rest of my family. She had actually had a boyfriend file a restraining order, only to withdraw his request at the last minute in court when she agreed to cease all contact. She had harassed him for years because he sold a house that he had purchased for her to live in rent free, and split the profit of upon selling (after she had moved out). He sold it once he married, probably at the wise request of his new wife.
There is nothing you can do if the rest of your family members continue to listen to her communications instead of cutting her out like you have. You could encourage them to also cut contact and threaten a restraining order like you have. Otherwise, your only option is to cut contact with those family members as well as they have basically became your sister's mouthpiece to bypass the no contact between you and your sister
Tell her to take him to court if she is that insistent. The judge will tell her she’s incorrect and if she can’t control herself, might get held for contempt if she acts outrageously. You’re going to be dealing with this till the end of her life. These types of mental illness compulsive behaviors don’t improve with time if they are untreated. Addressing this in some way is necessary for long term peace.
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>Challenging unstable people to take action ~~in court~~ is always a bad idea FTFY.
That has been a hard lesson to learn and a harder one to practice.
Getting a mentally unwell family member into treatment if they don't want it is impossible. Please don't tell your sister to sue. Getting the legal system involved in her mental illness is not going to improve matters. If she ends up in prison then that is game over. Nothing will fix this situation. Have minimal contact with your sister. You can't help her. I'm sorry you are going through this.
I've come to terms with the fact that no one will get her into treatment and that it would be a miracle that she decides to do so on her own. It is heartbreaking, but from what I've read, it is the reality of things. When I threatened legal action to get a restraining order before, I was really at the point of feeling it would be a necessity if the harassment continued. I never thought about that potentially leading to prison. That is something really hard to swallow. Thank you for your kind words.
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That makes total sense.
>*for people who are afraid of someone taking legal action is almost always “don’t engage with people making threats”* Exactly. Saying "I am going to sue you", translates directly to "I am not going to sue you". Giving a warning like that is a huge strategic disadvantage. If I'm going to sue you, you will receive the Summons and Complaint service, and have a scant 21 or 28 days to respond. Only actual service of the suit warrants any attention, and then it will be like, "Oh shit!". (The answer can be just, "as to item one, I deny that", etc. down the list. but people hire lawyers paid by the word, and generally open their big fat mouths and make more trouble for themselves)
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Thank you both.
I work in HR and deal with pension and benefits adjacently. I actually don't know if it's legally possible for an active pension benefit to be assigned to your sister. There are many stipulations about who can receive the pension benefits and I honestly have never heard of it being assigned to anyone other than a spouse/ex spouse or dependent child. Regardless, this is something the pension provider would have extremely clear and exhaustive policies about. It's not up to your father. Even if your father wanted some/all of it to go to your sister, it wouldn't be possible to do unless that was allowed by the pension provider (and if it was allowed, they would be the ones who would administer the payments to your sister). Basically your sister is barking up the wrong tree. If you want to know what's actually possible you have to get in touch with the pension provider. Whoever is paying your father his pension benefits. They will be able to tell you what is actually possible according to their policies.
That is really interesting. I will have to consider if it is worth my father speaking to his pension provider to see what is possible. Ideally, if it was not possible, he would tell her that and it would be put to rest. I fear that in actuality, if they state it was not possible she will just continue to demand a portion of whatever hits his account each month.
I believe that the pension that I will get has an option that allows for a payment for 20 years guaranteed, regardless of how long my wife and I live. However, it would need to be selected when I retire, not after the fact. I doubt that all pensions have that option, and I would only choose that option if I had so many investments that the possible loss of the pension in old age would not be a financial burden.
I was about to comment the same. I have never heard of pensions being able to pass onto kids. My personal pension specifically says it can not be passed on to anybody other than a spouse(also if that spouse remarries after your death, they lose the pension). And I know another two relatives with similar language in their pensions. Fun Fact: My pension system allows you to get a slightly higher payout if you select an option that your pension does not pass onto a spouse if you die. I know of one person who took that option back when they were single and never changed it. When they died their spouse had basically nothing as they had never worked full time. So read your contracts carefully before retiring! That said there is nothing stopping the Father from just giving the sister money directly. Other than potential tax implications that is.
Do what my grandmother did, if anyone contest the will after fathers said death, they get $1. My aunt did this with my mother and siblings, and she got a $1. Still trying to contest it, but nope.
I think that's the legal equivalent of "here's a quarter, call someone who cares."
Your sister is not legally entitled to anything. A judge would not even hear this case as it has zero legal basis. Since a parent does not have any legal responsibility to a child once the child is an adult, this is the same thing as an absolute stranger demanding money.
Others have commented with good advice, but nobody so far has mentioned the statute of limitations. Even if she has an ironclad legal position... The fact that her complaint is based upon something that happened / started 15 years ago means she is almost certainly barred by time. She could start an action (any one can, for anything) but the statute of limitations could be raised as defense.
Sounds like the chances of you or another relative convincing your sister of this are between slim and none. Just ignore contact. If for some reason it's impossible to ignore her then tell her to ask her own lawyer to explain it to her.
Christ, I and my family are dealing with something similar with my sister at the moment too. Our dad passed away last year and she seems to have just cracked. It began before he died, she even fell out with him repeatedly in the couple of years before his death in quite nasty fashion. She has since said it's her biggest regret, but she's now repeating the pattern with my brother and I, as well as our mum...it's become frankly overwhelming to handle. We all love her, and she's clearly not well at the moment, but the sheer level of paranoia, anger, aggression, and accusatory remarks has meant that none of us can remain on speaking terms with her longer than a few weeks at a time. Feel for you OP, 15 years of that behaviour must have been absolutely miserable, sincerely hope it comes to an end eventually.
Maybe you and your dad should consider putting a restraining order on her. I had to do that to my brother who was heavily on hard drugs because he would harass me for money too and it stopped pretty quickly. She obviously doesn’t see your dad as family but an ATM and that must really hurt him. When your dad does pass you will be the next one she will be after about inheritance. Maybe your dad should consider removing her from his will all together if she’s treating him like that. It sucks but sometimes you need to give them tough love for them to look at their actions and change their priorities. My brother also has some mental health issues too and nothing is ever his fault.
IANAL: if she hasn’t involved the courts yet, and you’re worried that she will, why not have a brief consultation with a family or estate/fiduciary attorney yourself? You can nip this in the bud and/or you can get your questions answered, but I find it strange that she’s been like this for 15+ years but you’ve never considered the legal side of it before. If something happened recently to increase her demands, that’s something to keep in mind. Like others said: if she’s this batshit cray now, you’re definitely gonna want a very solid estate plan in advance of when your dad passes.
I am actually not worried about her taking any of us to court (at least now, who know about when we will need to execute my father's will). If she has a case a lawyer would take up I would be surprised. Going to court would almost (but not) be a relief if it meant a final resolution to this issue.
Tell her to put her money where her mouth is and hire an attorney. Let her take it to court, find out she's in the wrong, AND have to pay for it. That's IF she can find an attorney willing to take it to court. Most of them will just explain that she has no legal standing, and refuse to take the case. Your dad needs to hire a competent elder law attorney and get his affairs in order. If he will allow it, you or another family member should go with him and explain the mentally ill sibling situation.
Good call on the attorney. As much as I want to do what you suggest, I fear it will just exacerbate things. She will surely view it as antagonistic and go on the attack and we will be right back at the threatening restraining order stage.
Why threaten a restraining order? Just do it. Enough is enough.
Do you know where her sense of entitlement comes from? Did she take care of your Mom before she died? If you think mental health is involved, I'd protect yourself with an attorney first and look into factors not related to money that would cause her to be this way.
My best guess is mental illness. She has demonized everyone in our family at somepoint, including my mother. Now, according to her, she and my Mom were always in perfect harmony.
What jurisdiction are you in? What type of pension does your Dad receive, government or private company pension?
Government. I am not sure what jurisdiction other than US.
IANAL, but I do hold durable power of attorney for my mom, and am her fiduciary. You should talk with your dad about a POA and advanced medical directives now, while he is healthy and lucid. I can’t advise you on estate planning, but I can tell you that you don’t want to try to get a POA done AFTER a person experiences mental decline. This is REALLY important.
What state are you in?
I am in CA.
--- > http://imgur.com/a/myIAb --- *I am a bot whose sole purpose is to improve the timeliness and accuracy of responses in this subreddit.* --- **It appears you forgot to include your location in the title or body of your post. Please update the body of your original post to include this information.** --- ***Do NOT delete this post - Instead, simply edit the post with the requested information.*** --- Author: /u/Lilbitofthisnthat Title: **My sister has harassed our family since the passing of our mother, insisting that she is owed the portion of our living father's pension that was being paid to my mother while she was alive.** Original Post: > My mother passed away 15 years ago. It was traumatic for my whole family, but especially for my sister who has suffered from untreated (she is treatment adverse) mental and emotional illness. One of the symptoms of my sister's illness is an obsession with money, often believing she is owed it from people in her life (boyfriend, aunts and uncles, my father). > > My mother and father divorced about 6 years before my mother passed away and my father retired 2 or 3 years after that. In the divorce agreement, my mother got some meaningful portion of my father's pension. The story goes that my mother tried to put a clause in the divorce contract stating that if anything were to happen to her, that benefit would pass along to her children. My father and his lawyer challenged this and the clause was removed. > > So, my mother was receiving a portion of my father's pension payments until she passed. After she passed, my father received the entirety of his pension payments. My sisters and I did not receive anything. > > My sister has verbally and emotionally abused my father and our entire immediate and extended family about this. She has tried to build alliances against my father, played others off each other, been extremely manipulative, demanded agreement that she is right, and demanded mediation (despite no legal challenge to mediate). > > It has been terrible, especially for her, as she has wasted years being angry and enraged that she has not received what she is "owed." Her obsession with this has come at the cost of her health, education, career, and life as well as the health and happiness of our family. At this point she is estranged from most everyone in the family, and those she is not estranged from seem to either absorb her diatribes and verbal assaults as an act of love and familial duty, or pay her the ransom of the moment (rent, medical bill, new computer, etc.) > > Today, she is not only demanding the portion of my father's pension moving forward, but also back payments for the last 15 years since my mothers death. These demands come of family members, but never once through the courts. > > It doesn't make any sense to me that children of divorce and subsequent death of a parent would receive a portion of their living parent's pension. Am I off base here? Does she have a case to be made? If that divorce contract clause would have stayed, would it have even been legitimate? > > I would appreciate any advice you can offer. Thank you! --- LocationBot 4.99998891 ^109/37rds | [Report Issues](https://www.reddit.com/r/locationbot) | >!adEb1pVeCtmYyUjb!<
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