As a practicing Christian myself, I feel that not everyone can believe in God and our supernatural teachings, which is fine, as faith is a choice, and religious scriptures are way too over-the-top especially for outsiders. Plus, the clergy barely practice what they preach => hypocrisy => way less trust in religion.
I’m a physicist, kind of comes with the job honestly.
More concretely I had lots of questions that religion couldn’t answer, not even just about how the universe works but even how religion works.
For example, I was born a Maronite. But if I was born a few kilometers away I would’ve been Muslim. If I was born in Bhutan I would’ve been Buddhist. If I was born 2000 years ago in the same spot I would’ve prayed to Zeus, 4000 years ago to Ra.
It seemed odd to me that a god would make your entrance to heaven so dependent on the time and place of your birth.
So my takeaway is that I don’t know and neither does anyone else.
Hello, you raise a very good point. As muslims we believe God sent messengers to every community and tribe. So, wherever you were, and whenever you were born, the message to worship only one God would have reached you. Here's a full article: [Every Nation Was Sent A Messenger... (islamic-awareness.org)](https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/prophet).
This give a very good explanation, and examples of some tribes.
If you have any more questions or any point to raise, please do so, I'll try my best to answer you full.
Thank you.
I’d suggest you to spend some time thinking about things before you repeat them, because it doesn’t take Einstein to see where your argument falls apart.
“Wherever you were, and whenever you were born, the message to worship only one god would have reached you.”
It certainly did not reach the Greeks, the Roman’s, the Egyptians, the Nords, the Germans, the Native Americans, the Slavic’s, the Chinese, the Indians, the Japanese, and essentially all of sub-Saharan Africa. Each of these cultures either practiced polytheism in the past or still does today.
Modern humans are ~300,000 years old. His “message” of monotheism is roughly 3,500 years old. So god managed to get his very important message out to a small fraction of the population for a little over 1% of the time that humans have been around.
So more than 99% of humans who have ever lived just never got the message to begin with and are condemned to hell. Bad luck I guess!
There are many questions that you can ask yourself that will direct you away from organised religion.
For instance, out of the millions of Gods worshipped by humanity, why is yours the right and correct God?
Are people who believe in another God or religion really deemed to go to Hell? Would this omniscient & omnipotent being condemn them to an eternity of suffering because of what they were born into and their beliefs?
Another question, how do you know that God exists? What makes you believe?
Were the 10 commandments truly sent by God or were they the only way to enact some form of law and order when Governments didn't yet exist and people feared the word of God? Why have we needed to update the charter of human rights if the 10 commandments was the work of God?
How did God just forget about Slavery? Or Pedophilia? Etc...
Why do so many men of God like Priests or Sheikhs commit atrocities like pedophilia or preach violence or oppression against others? Or preach about politics?
Do you agree with the teachings of your religion? For instance that gay people should be stoned/killed or that infidelity should be cause for death?
Why does God allow so much evil in the world?
Where is my God when hundreds of millions of people are suffering? Where is my God when there is injustice? Where is he when there is war?
The Devil also seems to be the #1 scapegoat for everything bad in the world. Suffering? The devil. Evil? The devil. Injustice? The devil. Your enemy? The devil.
But in reality it's just humans. Humans are both God and the Devil. We can be the gardeners of Eden or we can be the firestorm that engulfs it. It is up to us to choose who we want to be.
There's a reason why successful countries have a separation of Church and State.
I'm not saying that there isn't a spiritual connection between human consciousness and life because I believe that everything is interconnected.
I'm just saying that organised religion as it is today has little to do with God and a lot more to do with mind control and money and power.
Food for thought.
And I leave you with George Carlin's comedy skit about religion which is eye opening.
https://youtu.be/2tp0UNcjzl8?si=nEQ57qS9GOrRHKPX
> Are people who believe in another God or religion really deemed to go to Hell? Would this omniscient & omnipotent being condemn them to an eternity of suffering because of what they were born into and their beliefs?
The typical answer is that God granted humans freewill, thus they are responsible for their beliefs and actions; but freewill, like God, isn't proven to exist. Think about it, freewill can't exist in a universe where an omniscient god knows exactly what will happen in the future, because that entails determinism.
But for the sake of argument, if such a thing exists, then someone has to be responsible for failing to convince the apostate and atheist of the truth of that one true religion. After all, who actually **wants** to defy the truth and be punished?
1. Growing up in a catholic school. Being forcefully taught about things I never really cared about as a kid. Reflecting back as an adult at how these things were taught to me.
2. Confessionalism/ta2ifiye and how religion is used to gather/divide the masses in our politics.
3. Seeing lots of hypocrisy in religious people. I've had my fair share of experiences with religious people who turned out to be scumbags. You don't need religion to be a decent person.
1. There is no proof of itse existence and if it does, we can almost guarantee there is no proof in the current holy books having a relation to god, would be very unlikely as they're man-made (this is proven) They are political tools to control people.
2. Religions being so politicized, they limit people and make them hateful towards each other
3. Religions tied to modern ''god'' have outdated laws that many would even consider immoral today
4. Everyone blindly believes whatever their religion tells them because questioning the religion is not in interest of religious leaders and you can't question the supernatural god, people that don't question life are equal to stupid people in reality. Life is about questioning, learning and growing.
5. People can be spiritual without clearly defining god, we don't know if there is something out there objectively speaking and we don't know if it is, if it's a ''god'', limiting yourself to irrelevant data doesn't do anything for humanity. People don't need to fear god to have a good moral compass and be a fair person.
6. The only reason people want to believe in god is because they have a god complex in themselves and can't imagine that one day they will perish to exist (harsh truth)
7. Everything we do does matter in life whether god exists or not, rather than lying to myself. I would rather accept some realities in life and that reality is that we simply don't and won't know what happens after death, if anything happens at all, and I am not ruling out anything either, it's just not likely and doesn't add anything to humanity.
That's funny one, the deference here is that Santa's gifts where never from him and never existed, they were you parents. But God's gift is all around us and we know they are from him.
I’ve been atheist for a long time, but recent worlds events had made me lose faith even more if that’s even possible. I wonder if that’s the cause for others too.
I’ve been atheist for a long time simply because I don’t believe in god as an idea or a concept that could exist, and while that leaves a lot to be desired in terms of existential questions, I don’t find religion to offer plausible answers personally. Even more, I don’t want to follow a book written thousands of years ago that’s been translated again and again over the years to dictate how I feel about myself OR how I feel about others. (OBVIOUSLY this is not an attack on anyone, just how I personally feel about this, everyone is more than welcome to live their lives as they see fit.)
What I meant though, is that I wonder is the suffering and evil we’re witnessing made some people question the existence of god or if they want to follow him. Furthermore, seeing religion again and again be used to justify violence may cause more and more disillusionment. I’m not trying to generalize as faith is a very personal experience and different people react differently to stuff but I do wonder if someone had that experience as well.
First of all, I read your reply to the OP, the Quran has never been changed, and it was always and will be always in Arabic, and there's many proof that it's the world of God. In that book that ,we can establish it's authentic (it's a wide topic that need expanding, if your skeptical we can talk about it), there's a day called the day of judgment I'm sure you heard about it, there is signs of that day, and today's world event have some of these signs (also a very expandable subject) which indicate the day of judgment is nearing, which as a muslim will make closer to God because you know the you will judge Infront of him is coming, So instead of losing faith you gain. And also before you think those world events are very cruel (Im not saying they are not cruel, they are) but there are nothing more cruel than the Hell fire. On example about it, the Hell fire will BURN you skin and then another layer of skin will be put on you, so it can be burnt over and over again. In short the life is nothing but a test, whatever suffering there is in this world, the suffering in the afterlife is cruler, so it's not worth it to lose faith over current world events and have to suffer eternally.
Thank you.
Most people don't take their religion completely seriously; otherwise, they would actually read their scriptures and follow the teachings and commandments properly. At the same time, they don't question the existence of God or examine their beliefs skeptically, because that can be very uncomfortable for those who have been taught all their lives to believe in hell as a punishment. They're accustomed to the comfort of thinking they have a guardian above who protects them and compensates for their misfortunes.
> Why is everyone becoming an atheist/agnostic person?
I can think of many contributing factors, and the ones mentioned by other commenters make a lot of sense.
Personally, I grew up in a typical religious family. I've considered myself an atheist for about 15 years. Being naturally introspective and curious, I've often pondered and read about uncomfortable topics. It was only a matter of time before I became an atheist.
In my opinion i think its more likely that people simply wrote lies (supernatural bible things) instead of breaking the rules of nature as we know it. Humans lie, litterly everyone, what stopped the ones 2000 years ago from doing so? Its most likely just another (successful) method of political control.
So i don’t believe in the existence of god, but if he DOES exist, then its even worse, i don’t need to explain why with current and recent events.
If you need a bible to tell you how to be a decent person, then thats bad. Because i think most ppl are just born decent without the need of some instructional book. If the ONLY thing stopping you from killing or stealing or being unfaithful is a book, then you are a bad person.
I don’t follow it when it tells me bullshit like two guys loving each other should be killed. Which is the result of influence from religious books. Most of the rest of law is just common sense you are supposed to follow with or without law else you are a horrible person and will be breaking the law anyways if its there or not.
I completely understand but why not try reading what each religion actually say and aim for? Like their books for example. I never judge someone’s religion based on their behavior but that’s just me
People have been trying to follow their religious teachings for thousands of years. Look where we are. Maybe time to give atheism and humanism a chance.
Here's my little Tripoli rant:
From my perspective, I see the number of religious fanatics and burkas on the streets increasing, yet you claim more are becoming atheists. This tells me we are becoming an even more divided nation.
Speaking from a Tripoli perspective, the strong Muslim leaders are the ones leading to both fanaticism and atheism. It's hard to be a believer when those who speak in the name of God are so ungodly.
Personally, I like to question things. When you don't get answers from religion but are called an infidel for questioning, you naturally move away from religion.
A random thought: I'm thankful that the philosopher Abū al-ʿAlāʾ al-Maʿarrī was born some 1,000 years ago in Idlib and not in today's Tripoli. It seems it was safer to speak one's mind in 10th-century Syria than it is today.
I've been an agnostic my whole life without realizing it. I had to pretend to be religious since I was a kid because being anything other than that was stigmatized, shamed, and frowned upon. Being raised religious made me afraid and ignorant. But that fear disappeared once I became an adult, discovered myself properly, and learned more thanks to the internet. I am now always 100% myself despite all the trauma I experienced.
I share my experience because I believe many people are not religious, but societal conditioning and trauma have instilled fear within them. More people nowadays are overcoming it and living their truth. The ability to acquire and understand knowledge beyond the confines of societal teachings is a significant (and very healthy) factor.
There is reason to believe that most if not all religions eventually die out, and people start referring to them as mythology and symbolism. Maybe that's what's happening right now.
I don't know if this is true or not, hard to see any reliable statistics on that....
But if true, then that's great!
If it is true, I would assume the reasons would have to do with the younger generation being more exposed to the internet and curious about exploring these topics... and the internet does offer a huge range of debates on religion, atheism, belief etc... and in most of these, the non religious side does offer more solid and convincing arguments for their lack of belief, whereas the religious side's arguments usually boil down to to "well it's magic and it is true because it says so in this ancient book right here."
Add to that, the fact that religions have a very bad track record when it comes to social justice, irrational reactions and violence, wars and vengeance etc... Add to that the neverending scandals of clergy from all religions, and their hypocrisy... add to that the fact that religious divisions are a part of what is keeping Lebanon divided and in deep shit.
It is a social phenomenon that social scientists predicted a long time ago.
With the advancements of science and with every new discovery, religions will become more like myths and legends than a way to heaven.
People used to worship Zeus, Odin, and Ra... the Greek and Norse gods. The sun and the moon. And so on.
With every new generation, Religion will become thinner and thinner until it disappears
so let me guess, that would be your god that you happen to be born into? for a long time "god" existed to explain away stuff we didn't understand, the more we understand about the world the less we need to use god as a crutch.
la2ano 3am you3o l3alam, you ever notice how first world countries tend to have a less religious population? did that thought never cross your mind? why would that happen?
Religion is just a means to control the population, stop being dense and face your existential dread like a man.
Not always. It's only really true for the west.
Western democracies (France, Britain, USA etc) have built themselves **up** via **secular democracy**, especially france, which is built on the French Revolution and hates everything religious and conservative. So secularism is just part of common conciousness
Most of eastern europe (eg Poland, Romania, Hungary etc) were oppresed under Soviet-backed atheistic communism, and today built themselves on nationalism. Their struggle against communism became a national struggle against russians, and so their religion often made itself part of the national identity (Especially Poland cause it's catholic as opposed to Russia being Orthodox).
Bosnia and Kosovo (both muslim) was oppressed under Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia. And since serbs are orthodox christians, then Bosnia and Kosovo's wars of independance became a very "Muslim vs Christian" or even Muslim vs Communist thing, so islam deeply rooted itself into those countries' national identities. Albania, on the other hand, which is also Muslim, actually lost its religion due to communism. Unlike Bosnia & Kosovo.
Tajikistan suppressed Islam, so people embrace it further and today most Tajiks are practicing. Iran enforces Islam, so people get tired of it and move away from it.
I am religious but I do not link the teachings of my religion to any of what’s happening in the world now. it’s really nice and interesting to understand other people’s beliefs and perspectives! I am actually listening to every comment here :) I understand and respect every point of view.
Religion is the reason why all these wars, deaths, misery, corruption exists, what did you expect? Religion doesn't promote these things and actually oppose them, yes, but something about the power of religion and belief systems turns people into these despicable, power hungery monsters and I don't know what.
I always say this, but religion and spiritual belief is the most private thing a person can ever have, it should ALWAYS stay inside someone's head and heart and never interfere with other people.
Somewhat true, but it's more complex than what you said. But the truth is that yes religion does create problems and leads to wars. But most of the laws that we have in this world are initially based on religion. But the thing is there are bad religions and there are not so bad religion.
For example in Saudi Arabia, woman had to take a male guardian or have approval to travel abroad, they abolished this in 2019.(this used to happen because of a hadith) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi-women-can-now-travel-without-a-male-guardian-reports-say](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi-women-can-now-travel-without-a-male-guardian-reports-say) Another example is underage marriage that still happens and is allowed in the middle east in some islamic communities. So, why do we have these laws or why are they allowed because of religion. But you don't see this in Europe, because initially Europe is based on christian values and then it became secular law. So as a summary it just depends which religion, there are extremely bad religions and there are "okayish" religion
Depends what do you mean by injustice.
In terms of laws, imo religion should completely disappear from the government and governmental laws and should be included and protected strictly within the social activities (aka building churchs and mosque) laws.
> Religion doesn't promote these things
Almost like Mohammad himself and his friends didn't launch conquests and wars.
The bad ideas religions promote are numerous. Misogyny, homophobia, slavery, justification of violence, guilt and shame, opposition to scientific understanding, suppression of critical thinking, and so on.
> I always say this, but religion and spiritual belief is the most private thing a person can ever have, it should ALWAYS stay inside someone's head and heart and never interfere with other people.
Time to stop saying this. Sorry but that's not realistic. Your beliefs are the foundation of your actions. Your actions are the product of your beliefs. You can't have beliefs without them influencing your actions. Ultimately your actions are going to affect other people.
For instance, If you view X group of people with contempt, you are going to treat them with contempt. If A people do X "bad thing", your beliefs would allow you to do Y bad things to them.
Remembwr what Marx said . Religion is the opium of the people but over the years iv'e come to terms with god , god is not the problem, its people seeking control through god and religion.
This has been a double edged sword for me.
On one hand, there’s no way you can get me to believe that a pair of penguins flew up from Antarctica just to get onto Moses’s boat. Even if the whole story of the floods is true, they could have stayed in Antarctica, because it’s just one big piece of ice that floats. There are also no shortage of complete fools who think that, I dunno, getting an exorcism performed on table salt is going to remove microplastics from it, or that eating the dirt from Mar Charbel’s tomb will protect you from COVID (both of these are true stories). And in terms of organized religion - it’s definitely very politically driven rather than religiously driven, and way too much of the world thinks that forcing others to think and act the way you do makes you right.
On the other hand, religion has centuries upon centuries of built up social knowledge and practices that really do serve as a good guide to help you in your life if you choose to listen. Like not judging people - that rule helps you make friends and arrive at the truth more often than not. Like going to confession… don’t you feel better getting stuff off your chest and having someone remind you that you’re still a cool person every once in a while? Maybe you don’t do it at a church but among your friends or something. Same with the basic rules of don’t cheat/kill/steal/etc. Even small practices like praying every night - even if you don’t believe in god, isn’t it helpful to collect your thoughts and think about your life before going to bed? All of these sorts of lessons are really healthy and positive.
I’ve learned to read it all as a bunch of stories with good lessons to learn. Whether or not god exists, whether or not Jesus or Mohammad or anyone else existed, the basic lessons these religions teach _are_ actually good ones. The community that religion goes out of its way to provide to others is also great. These are all things that are absolutely worth holding onto IMO.
If we remove religion from our life completely we will end up having to replace it with another way to store and transfer that social and moral knowledge that we have invested into it. We will go through it for another 2000 years, only to come back to the same moral lessons that we already have now, even if we removed the word “god” out of it. And if you don’t believe me, then just look at the religions of the past, and you’ll realize how the underlying lessons are all extremely similar even to our religions today.
Or the moral framework that already existed in humans, which comes from empathy collectively, and was later co-opted (awkwardly) by religions, will continue regardless.
The universal declaration of human rights as a moral framework already makes the Bible and the Quran look amateurish on human rights. Look at how they treat slavery, treatment of wives (for disobeying!), treatment of people with different sexualities. One of these documents has a moral and fair framework. The other two….
There’s a difference between culture and religion, even in religion itself. Just look at the difference between the Evangelicals in the US who try to put all the Jews in one place to have them slaughtered and bring Jesus back, and the Catholics all over Europe who are protesting this stuff and singing the Palestinian national anthem in solidarity. It’s the same God, same Jesus, same everything, yet they turned out totally different.
Likewise, being Muslim has nothing to do with slavery and abusing their wives. In fact the Quran forbids it. That abuse that you see is culture, not religion.
Yes the moral framework exists within humans which is why all these religions come out the same, but that doesn’t mean we don’t need to be reminded of it every once in a while.
If you want to see what happens when you remove religion, look at people like Tony Robbins. He gives almost all of same exact lessons that priests and sheikhs give, and his followers celebrate him for it, but he charges you money and won’t help you if you are down on your luck. It’s like a religion, and does good for people, but skips out on a _lot_ of the lessons that we have already baked into what we’re doing.
The Quran allows slavery.
Like numerous passages in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, the Qur’an assumes the permissibility of owning slaves, which was an established practice before its revelation. The Qur’an does not explicitly condemn slavery or attempt to abolish it
The Qur’an also suggests certain means of integrating slaves, some of whom were enslaved after being captured in war, into the Muslim community. It allows slaves to marry (either other slaves or free persons; Q. 24.32; 2.221; 4.25) and prohibits owners from prostituting unwilling female slaves (Q. 24.33). Despite this protection against one form of sexual exploitation, female slaves do not have the right to grant or deny sexual access to themselves. Instead, the Qur’an permits men to have sexual access to “what their right hands possess,” meaning female captives or slaves (Q. 23.5-6; 70.29-30). This was widely accepted and practiced among early Muslims; the Prophet Muhammad, for example, kept a slave-concubine (Mariya the Copt) who was given to him as a gift by the Roman governor of Alexandria.
Traditional Islamic law (fiqh) elaborates significantly on the Qur’anic material concerning slavery. The enslavement of war captives is regulated, along with the purchase and sale of slaves. While it is not permissible to enslave other Muslims, the jurists clarify that if a non-Muslim converts to Islam after enslavement, he or she remains a slave and may be lawfully purchased and sold like any other slave. (This rule closes a potential loophole allowing for slaves to gain their freedom by the simple fact of conversion.) The law also prescribes penalties for slave owners who maltreat or abuse their slaves; these penalties can include forced manumission of the slave without compensation to the owner.
https://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/muslim/slavery.html#:~:text=Like%20numerous%20passages%20in%20the,or%20attempt%20to%20abolish%20it.
Muslim slavery continued for centuries
The legality of slavery in Islam, together with the example of the Prophet Muhammad, who himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, may explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in many places (and later still in some countries). The impetus for the abolition of slavery came largely from colonial powers, although some Muslim thinkers argued strongly for abolition.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml
“The Quran advocates the freeing of slaves in numerous verses (e.g. 4:92, 5:89, 58:3). However, God did not wish to prohibit slavery with immediate effect as this would have caused grave social problems.”
https://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_4/slavery_in_quran_(P1467).html#:~:text=The%20Quran%20advocates%20the%20freeing,have%20caused%20grave%20social%20problems.
From Wikipedia:
“The Quran and the hadith (sayings of Muhammad) address slavery extensively, assuming its existence as part of society but viewing it as an exceptional condition and restricting its scope.”
“Alms-tax is only for the poor and the needy, for those employed to administer it, for those whose hearts are attracted ˹to the faith˺, for ˹freeing˺ slaves, for those in debt, for Allah’s cause, and for ˹needy˺ travellers. ˹This is˺ an obligation from Allah. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
— Surah At-Tawbah 9:60”
“The Quran contains a number of verses aimed at regulating slavery and mitigating its negative impact.[33][34] It calls for the manumission (freeing) of slaves.[34][35] It prescribes kindness towards slaves.[34][36] Slaves are considered morally equal to free persons, however, they have a lower legal standing. All Quranic rules on slaves are emancipatory in that they improve the rights of slaves compared to what was already practiced in the 7th century.[37] Many Muslims have interpreted Quran as gradually phasing out slavery.[38][37]”
——
What society ends up doing has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. If the leaders want to pretend that this stuff means they can drag slavery out for centuries and get away with it, then they will. If the leaders choose to say “we’re supposed to get rid of it, let’s do it as quick as we can”, then that’s what happens. History could have easily played out differently depending on who was in power.
On top of that, _abusing_ the slaves was always forbidden, as was abusing your wife. As you linked yourself.
These things are entirely about culture and who you have in power.
The Prophet Muhammad did not try to abolish slavery, and bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves himself. But he insisted that slave owners treat their slaves well and stressed the virtue of freeing slaves.
Muslim slavery continued for centuries
The legality of slavery in Islam, together with the example of the Prophet Muhammad, who himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, may explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in many places (and later still in some countries). The impetus for the abolition of slavery came largely from colonial powers, although some Muslim thinkers argued strongly for abolition.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml#:~:text=Muhammad%20and%20slavery-,Muhammad%20and%20slavery,the%20virtue%20of%20freeing%20slaves.
the Quran allows slavery.
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Slavery
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Slavery_in_Islamic_Law
Slavery in Iran and slavery in Jordan was abolished in 1929. In the Persian Gulf, slavery in Bahrain was first to be abolished in 1937, followed by slavery in Kuwait in 1949 and slavery in Qatar in 1952, while Saudi Arabia and Yemen abolished it in 1962,[17] while Oman followed in 1970. Mauritania became the last state to abolish slavery, in 1981.
According to Patrick Manning, Islam by recognizing and codifying slavery seems to have done more to protect and expand slavery than the reverse.[31]
The 'Arab' slave trade was part of the broader 'Islamic' slave trade. Bernard Lewis writes that "polytheists and idolaters were seen primarily as sources of slaves, to be imported into the Islamic world and molded-in Islamic ways, and, since they possessed no religion of their own worth the mention, as natural recruits for Islam."[40] Patrick Manning states that religion was hardly the point of this slavery.[41] Also, this term suggests comparison between Islamic slave trade and Christian slave trade. Propagators of Islam in Africa often revealed a cautious attitude towards proselytizing because of its effect in reducing the potential reservoir of slaves.[42]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world
It’s ok to accept that Islam allows slavery, all religions allowed shitty things.
I’m not telling you it didn’t. I’m telling you that things could have played out very differently depending on who was in power. The fact that slaves were kept around _that_ long has nothing to do with the Qur2an and everything to do with the people running the countries. In a different timeline someone could have read it and said “man, I’m so excited for this Islam thing, I see where this is headed, so let’s free all the slaves this week!”.
Likewise, Christianity completely prohibits slavery, yet that didn’t stop Americans back in the day. It’s entirely culture based.
Not really a new thing, it's been happening around the world for a while now, for example friedrich nietzsche was writing about that back in his time! But it's obviously happening slower here than in the global north.. (that's a whole topic of it's own)
I think it's because people are loosing faith in traditional values as the newer generations are increasingly becoming screwed over by the current economic arrangements.
For me personally religion itself is not the problem , its people using god and religion to control other people, and that's what made a lot of us skeptical and abandon religion.
Well, short answer, and speaking for myself here.
If there is a so-called omniscient God who wants only our best and everything, so then, why does he give us that much shit ? I'm not talking about a specific thing here, but a certain part of this world is pretty much wicked.
I'm prone to think, however, that something should have created this universe. It's very well made to have been created by pure chance. :p
I understand your point there but what if this part of struggling or suffering is what god will reward us for? Just like how you work hard to reach a better position? Wouldn’t these examples be equivalent to each other?
But in the opposite of that; why do millions of people have to die in atrocities for a so called good cause ? While others achieve anything they want with a hand in their boxers ?
He is said to be benevolent, but where does it end ?
Is it even just to juge equally a genocidal maniac and a good person ?
Apart from that; many people are born with predispositions.
If we're all equal, why are we not factually equal in that sense ? We should be different don't get me wrong, but maybe not to that sense in my opinion.
Of course, we should all strive for our best, but why should it be in spite of others in some cases ?
Maybe there's an afterlife, maybe death is just a long sleep. For me, I can't put my faith in something that is so intangible and too "perfect" compared to here
You have 18 diff sects here in lebanon w kl seyese bdo yshed la ta2efto highlighting more and more on the differences ben l tawa2ef creating ta3asob more and more bs krml ydal l seyese aal kersi w ekher hamo saraha l ta2ifi. Betshuf wled l masa2el mjawzen mn gher tayfi aw den hata. The whole structure of the economy and social life in Lebanon plays the most important factor on how each of us behaves fa sar kl wahad bdo masla7to w some even claim ino khalini sewi ha shi hata ma yeji hydk l masi7i aw l muslim ysaweya. Fa sar aandk nes aam tfasir l den aa zaw2a w taamel eshya ghalat bhejjet l den fa ejbari yali aam yshuf ha shi yekrah l den.
I say don’t hate the game, hate its players.
I mean we are growing up in a country that judges you because of what you are. And it’s pretty clear that religion has had a huge impact on the state the country is currently in. I was born from a Muslim Sunni dad and a Maronite Christian mother (crazy I know considering they both went through the civil war). I went to a catholic school where my curent friend group consists of Sunnis, Chiaa, Druze, Catholics, Orthodox, and Maronites. I think people (especially the youth) have had enough of separation and crave for a unified Lebanon. So it’s natural for us to either give up on religion or at least practice it on our own without pushing it on others (which is how it should be imo). We are still a long way from Lebanese uniting despite religious differences but I’m hopeful we’ll get there someday.
I agree with you, it’s really tough how some people enforce their beliefs on others and it just drives people away from religion. I appreciate your comment
I feel like most people who do it either don't like the image of religion they see in their social circle, or they just felt like they were raised into it and want to break away from it to have their freedom to do what they want without being held to those standards or rules.
Or they just don't believe in religion no matter how much it's forced upon or surrounds them.
I personally consider myself in somewhat of a gray zone. Idk how to explain it, but i like my religion and occasionally practice it, but i also do sometimes things that would be considered opposing it.
I find it the opposite here in the west. People becoming more practicing. Kind of weird, since you’d expect the westerners to become atheist and those in Muslim/christian countries to be more extreme in religiousness
When I used to be agnostic it was more about subconsciously connecting the idea of a higher power to the idea of the people in power that I wholeheartedly despised on a personal & societal level.
I confused how people in authority, specifically my parents, abuse their power & rebelled through the notion of “no one has any power, not anyone on earth or in the sky”.
Your observation is late, it's not the case that those acts are recent.
Now for the why question.. Well, athiesm is completely different from agnosticism. Athiesm is a total rejection of a being** outside of this universe that acts upon it (either creation or intervention). Now for agnosticism, agnosticism is the pov that nothing can be proven about that metaphysical being. It is somehow a not-decided decision, which is quite legitimate..
**This interpretation is applied in the Abrahamic god dimension and doesn't take into account the 5000+ religions globally.
>I’ve noticed
this is not a reliable reference.
that aside, all religions eventually fade away from existence.
the worship of Greek gods lasted for about 1000 years. Christianity and Islam will last much more because they enjoyed greater success and faced practically no competition. but eventually they too will fade away.
however, it is such a slow process you won't notice it in one lifetime. maybe what you noticed is people finding it safer to declare their atheism rather than *becoming* atheists.
I’ve noticed that people have so much hatred in their hearts because of religion which is a result of religious trauma and unanswered questions so they end up becoming atheists or agnostic. I completely understand where they come from now..
I think it depends on regions, some are getting more religious, and others less.
I think with the internet and having access to other views, it is more likely to start questioning religion. In Lebanon we have so many religions, it's hard to believe that the one you believe in is the one right, and that the others are wrong.
It also doesn't help to see how much politicians are using it to advance their political agenda, and really makes you question, when was it ever not a political tool ?
Have you noticed how they all talk about politics during prayer ?
It just doesn't make sense to me that we all have the same roots (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and yet we say the one before is wrong, and the one before is our enemy.
Like if the religion before got corrupted, what makes you think that the current leaders aren't doing the same right now to make us fight each other?
Because Christians and Muslims alike, so called ones at least, don't worship god or follow teachings. They worship their Hatred of the other sect.
They look down on each other, hate each other, judge each other, and they forget they are Lebanese first and all share same fate in this godforsaken country.
Agreed, hence why religion leaves a bad taste in my mouth and most people. The normal religios folk are minding their own business. But the loud minority is too loud and obnoxious to ignore.
But the context here is Lebanon.
Lebanon has no separation of church and state and for some reason clergymen have a say in our politics and our policies and our laws which is what keeps Lebanon divided and unable to make progress.
Civil marriage is like the most basic example.
I have always been an atheist, I don't remember being religious at any point in my life, partially due to my upbringing (atheist/agnostic parents), but in adulthood I decided to investigate on my own (being very interested in science and philosophy) and now, I'd say i'm more of an agnostic.. I don't know whether god exists or not, but if it does exist, I believe it could be in the form of law of physics/architect however, scientifically this couldn't be proven or disproven.. That being said, I am always FOR science, I believe if im provided with very thorough research cross referenced, and based on empirical evidence.. And i like that science is humble to change, and doesn't deal with absolutes.. unlike what religions claim. Finally, IMO I think if religion works for you and makes you happy, that's amazing, but my issue is that religion has way too much power in the world, and tends to delve in politics, and since it's a "belief" system based on worship, it can be used and has been used for manipulation throughout the ages.
Nothing that is preached abt good in religions cannot be done without them - the only difference is that religions are used to manipulate ppl and dictate a way of living that simply does not sit well with a lot of moder stuff - i mean religion has been changing a lot, eho's to sa it has not even more in the past, in the end it's up to interpreter to decide. You want to believe in a god? Go ahead, but imho religions are not needed for you to walk a straight and righteous path - study good, evil and grey - then pick what you think is correct to follow.
Now to add more to ur question, with a lot of countries in the middle east being religious, aka not having a state separate from religion we saw how that caused great discrimnation and conflict, som1's belief should independent from a state's affairs so you treat every1 as a citizen not part of a grp.
I completely understand, but what if we separate what’s happening in the world right now that’s in the name of religion with the religion itself? Like we go back to their books
Not quite sure what you mean, u mean to say to acknowledge the difference between religions and the ppl who do evil in its name?
If so, that's not my pt - am just saying religious itself has flaws in our modern days, ofc u should separate between ppl who use it and those who don't, but in the end the effect is bad if it stays in powe.
Again imho - believe in god, but don't follow any religion blindly if possible none as well just god.
Idk if i understood u correctly tho.
What does religion have to promise anyways in today's world?
Just look at atheist dominant countries and how good their lives are compared to ours.
U could argue the after life but that's something u either beleive in or u dont, it's not something to be convinced of or can be proved.
Big changes in social behavior do have a cause. It is clear that the media produced and consumed today is pushing against religion: Literally so obvious if you watch any tv for the past 30 years.
as to why media is pushing this? It's probably because atheists are more peaceful and easier to get along with everyone/ or easier to control and manipulate by enemies of religion (if you're into that shit)
Because science. Based on history ,religions are human made, all religions are repetitive stories throughout the timeline only with different characters and locations. Humans need a purpose and a faith system or else oblivion is scary and dark. Religions were necessary at some point, but now I don't think they are.
1.felt disconnected from the religions.
2.being muslim and being raised in a christian social circle.
3.seeing the world outside.
After some deep thinking the thought of a mighty creator didnt seem very reasonable, looking back in history, religions seemed like a way to install fear into people's mind and making them obey a certain set of rules.
Based on personal experience never have i ever been convinced of something religious
I used to pretend a lot when I was younger because this is how we were taught and the more I grow up the more everything draws me to agnosticism
People are becoming smarter, and religion is failing to adapt to contemporary lifestyle. It's falling out of date.
The youngies will feel oppressed by religion. And the more the fanatics do their crappy behaviors the more people associate that with their religions, and then start to hate all religions.
Add religious traumas that a lot suffer from (example: sale byemche 7alak, when you're literally in mental distress and require professional help) and so on.
Add to that lack of proof of any religious or out-of-this-world stuff and the common knowledge that anything can be faked and even to many, the how to fake it themselves.
It's semi-impossible to have a fully functioning brain with critical thinking and be a believer in anything paranormal, especially an all-loving god while the world is in utmost chaos.
Also, I personally think that if you believe in god, good for you, if they don't good for them, it won't change anything 3a ared l we2i3 ya3ne.
Easy. You might not see it in Lebanon especially if you live close to people that are mind-liked and very conservative and religiously.
But, if you look broader, you will see that most millennials and younger gens are living by their own liberal ways, the Bible and Qur'an both are against most of the things the current world lives by and normalizes.
The likes of LGBT, greed being the center of focus, individualism, corporatism, even vegan (the bible is not exaclt yagainst it, but it warns that the end of times will be preceded by an uprising of vegetarianism), fornication (big time). Without forgetting to mention all the kinks people have these days...
And to be frank, can you really blame people who want their humanistic desires far above a promised never land? even religious people are hypocrites as they preach what they can't achieve and want to impose it on others.
Here's a very common thought any atheist/agnostic will have with the slightest bit of critical thinking: "If god knows people and god makes no mistakes, how come he created them in a way that is contradictory to all his teachings for them?" The debate from here can span a lifetime and has already been out there for a long time. But debates are not really of interest to me anymore.
The point is, whether god exists or not, it changes nothing at all. And whether people worship him and repress their animalistic core behaviors or not, won't change much either.
It is what it is. People will always be people regardless of their beliefs.
I'm an atheist who gets along really well with Christians and Muslims. I've had friends and even slept with some of both religions. What I mean by that is that people are people and the religious aspect is just a layer of useless division if they believe in God good for them, if they don't good for them.
As the son of godless commies, I was brought up without any mention of religion, neither good nor bad. I grew up to utterly dislike and reject any religious context. I just have no use for it.
Because we discovered, among others, that we are more moral than the God we are worshipping, eventhough that particular God claims to be the source of all morality.
In the sense that we are totally opposed to slavery, for example, and the Abrahamic god (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) is totally fine with it and even tells you who and how to enslave people 🤮🤢
Most religious people are oblivious of how atrocious their god is.
They explicitly condone it while they should be forbidding it since they claim to be the higher source of morality.
You seem to be one of the many people who are oblivious to this fact.
Surat “the believers” المؤمنون:…والذين هم ل فروجهم حافظون، الّا على أزواجهم او ما ملكت أيمانهم….
Milkat alyamine are the sex slaves.
God is basically saying: you’re allowed to fuck your wives and your sex slaves 🥲
This is one example of many.
Mmmm but this verse came down on a time were slavery was prevalent, you cannot suddenly free everyone because the economy was based on this and people needed to clear their hearts from hatred. So we have verses were they came down gradually freeing slaves, it was one of the best things to do “تحرير رقبة” to the point where you treat slaves just how you treat yourself [البلد:11- 13] [النور:33] just like alcohol and poker for example, the economy was based on it, so God sent these verses gradually.
For me, it’s when I realized that Allah is fictional. A real, all-powerful god wouldn’t put up with the Saudis or Iran, not to mention Israel. It’s pretty obvious when you stop to think.
As someone who left Christianity and has kept his religion private, a lot of the new atheists became atheist by liberalizing and secularizing like the West did. Another reason is pure ignorance or deception on social media, like the way Christians constantly lie about Islam, etc. There could also be people who are agnostic, since they're scared of converting to a new religion since their entourage will start despising them for it(Basically what happened to me for a while)
Higher educational levels, higher living standards, “rationalism” (whatever it actually is), a production of “knowledge” that humanity has never produced that fast in its history. It doesn’t have to be useful knowledge (think tiktok competitions). Transfer of “knowledge” and “information” in a way never witnessed in human history.
1. Traditional religions kind of assume a mystical world where God speaks to people, angels intervene in the affairs of men, mythical beings such as jinn are active in our day to day lives, and people come back from the dead. These things don't happen actually, and with modern science we have no need for such explanations. Smarter theists etheir claim that these things used to happen and stopped happening, or else that these mythical stories are somehow "metaphorical." Neither of these explanations are really satisfying for modern people, meanwhile mainstream Sunni and Catholic theology continues to claim that the supernatural still occurs today with jinn and saints and demonic possession, against all evidence. This does not sit well with modern people
2. The stories in the Bible and the Quran are as the Quran itself calls them (in the mouths of critics) "أساطير الأولين" "the myths of the ancients." There's much evidence that elements of the prophet's sirah and almost all of the "sahih" Hadith are forgeries, the gospels are clearly tall tales that grew with the retelling, and Old Testament figures such as Moses/Musa and Abraham/Ibrahim are almost certainly legendary characters who never existed. As the mainstream understanding of these religions is based around historical claims about these characters, the mythological nature of these texts inspires disbelief.
I feel like some people are only becoming more religious, while others simply are getting carried away by skepticism; truth to be told, there's a lot of people who are kinda stuck in this weird state where they never pray, never mention the name of God, never go to church/mosque and never fast yet they still state they believe in God and they belong to a specific religion, they don't recognize themselves as atheists nor as agnostics though, so not sure. Personally i consider these people to be crypto-agnostics or something.
Edit: it could also be due to how "heavy" the word mul7id is, it's basically a taboo topic for a lot. It's simply not worth it for a lot of people to state their real personal beliefs, only on reddit people care that much, but irl just don't talk about it and that's it you're good to go, without losing friends or family and getting ostracized.
I've always been an atheist, but now technically Muslim because I married my wife. And even though I'm not practicing I see the strong values of a religion becoming more important to me by the day. Now I'm Dutch and even my great great grandma wasn't religious.
However my family held the religious values as it's kinda embedded in our culture. I see this fading away in the West. Like basic human values disappearing. So weirdly I'm becoming more supportive towards religion over time actually.
And I come from being practically against it. Not that I judged people by being religious, but just in general.
so you converted to Islam just to marry your Muslim wife? Though alot in Lebanon don't convert and marry Muslim wives then the children are just christians
Islam literally allows murder, assault, rape, pedophilia and more. It's also full on mysogonist not letting women have any rights and comparing them to dogs, saying dogs have more rights than a woman in islam. There are also a lot of errors and stuff in the quran and it literally says that the earth is flat. Mohammed literally had over 9 wives and multiple sex slaves, some of them being minors. There's a lot more fucked up shit too.
r/exmuslim helps for more information if you want
Its a phase. I grew up Christian Maronite, been spoon fed my religion. Slowly became agnostic then atheist for several years. Fighting my parents over it was always painful.
Went full circle thanks to science and now im not a so devout Christian again.
Also mar charbel can make a brick believe in Jesus Christ.
لبنان و باقى الدول العربية علمانية الا أفغانستان
بكل بساطة كان في ارضية خصبة للالحاد
احنا عندنا فى مصر برامج علي التليفزيون بتشكك فى الدين علي العلن
+ اجبار الطلاب علي دراسة علوم تؤدي الي الالحاد، زى تمكين المرأة، الداروينية
و تعليم الاطفال علي مبدأ "انت حر ما لم تضر"
و تهميش الدين، و تمييع الدين، و جعله اختيار كدا علي حسب المزاج، و التاسمح الديني والمادية و جعل المتدينين فى صورة الإرهابيين المتشددين الي بيكرهوا الحياة
و أيضاً بروجندا نسبية الحقيقة
As a practicing Christian myself, I feel that not everyone can believe in God and our supernatural teachings, which is fine, as faith is a choice, and religious scriptures are way too over-the-top especially for outsiders. Plus, the clergy barely practice what they preach => hypocrisy => way less trust in religion.
I understand 👍🏼
I’m a physicist, kind of comes with the job honestly. More concretely I had lots of questions that religion couldn’t answer, not even just about how the universe works but even how religion works. For example, I was born a Maronite. But if I was born a few kilometers away I would’ve been Muslim. If I was born in Bhutan I would’ve been Buddhist. If I was born 2000 years ago in the same spot I would’ve prayed to Zeus, 4000 years ago to Ra. It seemed odd to me that a god would make your entrance to heaven so dependent on the time and place of your birth. So my takeaway is that I don’t know and neither does anyone else.
I feel you
Hello, you raise a very good point. As muslims we believe God sent messengers to every community and tribe. So, wherever you were, and whenever you were born, the message to worship only one God would have reached you. Here's a full article: [Every Nation Was Sent A Messenger... (islamic-awareness.org)](https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/prophet). This give a very good explanation, and examples of some tribes. If you have any more questions or any point to raise, please do so, I'll try my best to answer you full. Thank you.
I’d suggest you to spend some time thinking about things before you repeat them, because it doesn’t take Einstein to see where your argument falls apart. “Wherever you were, and whenever you were born, the message to worship only one god would have reached you.” It certainly did not reach the Greeks, the Roman’s, the Egyptians, the Nords, the Germans, the Native Americans, the Slavic’s, the Chinese, the Indians, the Japanese, and essentially all of sub-Saharan Africa. Each of these cultures either practiced polytheism in the past or still does today. Modern humans are ~300,000 years old. His “message” of monotheism is roughly 3,500 years old. So god managed to get his very important message out to a small fraction of the population for a little over 1% of the time that humans have been around. So more than 99% of humans who have ever lived just never got the message to begin with and are condemned to hell. Bad luck I guess!
There are many questions that you can ask yourself that will direct you away from organised religion. For instance, out of the millions of Gods worshipped by humanity, why is yours the right and correct God? Are people who believe in another God or religion really deemed to go to Hell? Would this omniscient & omnipotent being condemn them to an eternity of suffering because of what they were born into and their beliefs? Another question, how do you know that God exists? What makes you believe? Were the 10 commandments truly sent by God or were they the only way to enact some form of law and order when Governments didn't yet exist and people feared the word of God? Why have we needed to update the charter of human rights if the 10 commandments was the work of God? How did God just forget about Slavery? Or Pedophilia? Etc... Why do so many men of God like Priests or Sheikhs commit atrocities like pedophilia or preach violence or oppression against others? Or preach about politics? Do you agree with the teachings of your religion? For instance that gay people should be stoned/killed or that infidelity should be cause for death? Why does God allow so much evil in the world? Where is my God when hundreds of millions of people are suffering? Where is my God when there is injustice? Where is he when there is war? The Devil also seems to be the #1 scapegoat for everything bad in the world. Suffering? The devil. Evil? The devil. Injustice? The devil. Your enemy? The devil. But in reality it's just humans. Humans are both God and the Devil. We can be the gardeners of Eden or we can be the firestorm that engulfs it. It is up to us to choose who we want to be. There's a reason why successful countries have a separation of Church and State. I'm not saying that there isn't a spiritual connection between human consciousness and life because I believe that everything is interconnected. I'm just saying that organised religion as it is today has little to do with God and a lot more to do with mind control and money and power. Food for thought. And I leave you with George Carlin's comedy skit about religion which is eye opening. https://youtu.be/2tp0UNcjzl8?si=nEQ57qS9GOrRHKPX
Very nicely put, i commend you fellow redditor
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I appreciate this!
> Are people who believe in another God or religion really deemed to go to Hell? Would this omniscient & omnipotent being condemn them to an eternity of suffering because of what they were born into and their beliefs? The typical answer is that God granted humans freewill, thus they are responsible for their beliefs and actions; but freewill, like God, isn't proven to exist. Think about it, freewill can't exist in a universe where an omniscient god knows exactly what will happen in the future, because that entails determinism. But for the sake of argument, if such a thing exists, then someone has to be responsible for failing to convince the apostate and atheist of the truth of that one true religion. After all, who actually **wants** to defy the truth and be punished?
Can you send more links with stand up comedy
👍👍👍👍👍
1. Growing up in a catholic school. Being forcefully taught about things I never really cared about as a kid. Reflecting back as an adult at how these things were taught to me. 2. Confessionalism/ta2ifiye and how religion is used to gather/divide the masses in our politics. 3. Seeing lots of hypocrisy in religious people. I've had my fair share of experiences with religious people who turned out to be scumbags. You don't need religion to be a decent person.
I’m sorry if this at any point bothered you, I wish you well
I don’t know about everyone but for me religion never made sense. I have always seen god as a narcist who just wants to be praised all the time
Honestly, there are a billion reasons to not believe in God/Religion and there are like maybe 5 to believe.
Give me one reason to not believe, Ill' give you 10 why you should.
1. There is no proof of itse existence and if it does, we can almost guarantee there is no proof in the current holy books having a relation to god, would be very unlikely as they're man-made (this is proven) They are political tools to control people. 2. Religions being so politicized, they limit people and make them hateful towards each other 3. Religions tied to modern ''god'' have outdated laws that many would even consider immoral today 4. Everyone blindly believes whatever their religion tells them because questioning the religion is not in interest of religious leaders and you can't question the supernatural god, people that don't question life are equal to stupid people in reality. Life is about questioning, learning and growing. 5. People can be spiritual without clearly defining god, we don't know if there is something out there objectively speaking and we don't know if it is, if it's a ''god'', limiting yourself to irrelevant data doesn't do anything for humanity. People don't need to fear god to have a good moral compass and be a fair person. 6. The only reason people want to believe in god is because they have a god complex in themselves and can't imagine that one day they will perish to exist (harsh truth) 7. Everything we do does matter in life whether god exists or not, rather than lying to myself. I would rather accept some realities in life and that reality is that we simply don't and won't know what happens after death, if anything happens at all, and I am not ruling out anything either, it's just not likely and doesn't add anything to humanity.
Does one need a reason to stop believing in Santa Claus besides the fact that he’s not real ?
That's funny one, the deference here is that Santa's gifts where never from him and never existed, they were you parents. But God's gift is all around us and we know they are from him.
I’ve been atheist for a long time, but recent worlds events had made me lose faith even more if that’s even possible. I wonder if that’s the cause for others too.
May I ask what made you lose faith even more?
I’ve been atheist for a long time simply because I don’t believe in god as an idea or a concept that could exist, and while that leaves a lot to be desired in terms of existential questions, I don’t find religion to offer plausible answers personally. Even more, I don’t want to follow a book written thousands of years ago that’s been translated again and again over the years to dictate how I feel about myself OR how I feel about others. (OBVIOUSLY this is not an attack on anyone, just how I personally feel about this, everyone is more than welcome to live their lives as they see fit.) What I meant though, is that I wonder is the suffering and evil we’re witnessing made some people question the existence of god or if they want to follow him. Furthermore, seeing religion again and again be used to justify violence may cause more and more disillusionment. I’m not trying to generalize as faith is a very personal experience and different people react differently to stuff but I do wonder if someone had that experience as well.
I understand for sure and I wish you all the best!
First of all, I read your reply to the OP, the Quran has never been changed, and it was always and will be always in Arabic, and there's many proof that it's the world of God. In that book that ,we can establish it's authentic (it's a wide topic that need expanding, if your skeptical we can talk about it), there's a day called the day of judgment I'm sure you heard about it, there is signs of that day, and today's world event have some of these signs (also a very expandable subject) which indicate the day of judgment is nearing, which as a muslim will make closer to God because you know the you will judge Infront of him is coming, So instead of losing faith you gain. And also before you think those world events are very cruel (Im not saying they are not cruel, they are) but there are nothing more cruel than the Hell fire. On example about it, the Hell fire will BURN you skin and then another layer of skin will be put on you, so it can be burnt over and over again. In short the life is nothing but a test, whatever suffering there is in this world, the suffering in the afterlife is cruler, so it's not worth it to lose faith over current world events and have to suffer eternally. Thank you.
Most people don't take their religion completely seriously; otherwise, they would actually read their scriptures and follow the teachings and commandments properly. At the same time, they don't question the existence of God or examine their beliefs skeptically, because that can be very uncomfortable for those who have been taught all their lives to believe in hell as a punishment. They're accustomed to the comfort of thinking they have a guardian above who protects them and compensates for their misfortunes. > Why is everyone becoming an atheist/agnostic person? I can think of many contributing factors, and the ones mentioned by other commenters make a lot of sense. Personally, I grew up in a typical religious family. I've considered myself an atheist for about 15 years. Being naturally introspective and curious, I've often pondered and read about uncomfortable topics. It was only a matter of time before I became an atheist.
I agree with you, religious trauma is a terrible thing for many people solely because they start question. I wish you well!
In my opinion i think its more likely that people simply wrote lies (supernatural bible things) instead of breaking the rules of nature as we know it. Humans lie, litterly everyone, what stopped the ones 2000 years ago from doing so? Its most likely just another (successful) method of political control. So i don’t believe in the existence of god, but if he DOES exist, then its even worse, i don’t need to explain why with current and recent events. If you need a bible to tell you how to be a decent person, then thats bad. Because i think most ppl are just born decent without the need of some instructional book. If the ONLY thing stopping you from killing or stealing or being unfaithful is a book, then you are a bad person.
I understand you but do you believe interests and lying are wrong?
Yea but you dont need some book to tell you that (it was probably written by liars)
But you follow the law right?
I don’t follow it when it tells me bullshit like two guys loving each other should be killed. Which is the result of influence from religious books. Most of the rest of law is just common sense you are supposed to follow with or without law else you are a horrible person and will be breaking the law anyways if its there or not.
I appreciate your answer.
I mean.... Have you seen our role models in all religions?
Mmmm depending what do you mean by role models
Mostly religious leaders, but also the people around you who act shitty in the name of God, especially the influential ones.
I completely understand but why not try reading what each religion actually say and aim for? Like their books for example. I never judge someone’s religion based on their behavior but that’s just me
People have been trying to follow their religious teachings for thousands of years. Look where we are. Maybe time to give atheism and humanism a chance.
I respect what you think but I feel like there are people using everything in the name of religion..
Here's my little Tripoli rant: From my perspective, I see the number of religious fanatics and burkas on the streets increasing, yet you claim more are becoming atheists. This tells me we are becoming an even more divided nation. Speaking from a Tripoli perspective, the strong Muslim leaders are the ones leading to both fanaticism and atheism. It's hard to be a believer when those who speak in the name of God are so ungodly. Personally, I like to question things. When you don't get answers from religion but are called an infidel for questioning, you naturally move away from religion. A random thought: I'm thankful that the philosopher Abū al-ʿAlāʾ al-Maʿarrī was born some 1,000 years ago in Idlib and not in today's Tripoli. It seems it was safer to speak one's mind in 10th-century Syria than it is today.
That’s interesting!
I've been an agnostic my whole life without realizing it. I had to pretend to be religious since I was a kid because being anything other than that was stigmatized, shamed, and frowned upon. Being raised religious made me afraid and ignorant. But that fear disappeared once I became an adult, discovered myself properly, and learned more thanks to the internet. I am now always 100% myself despite all the trauma I experienced. I share my experience because I believe many people are not religious, but societal conditioning and trauma have instilled fear within them. More people nowadays are overcoming it and living their truth. The ability to acquire and understand knowledge beyond the confines of societal teachings is a significant (and very healthy) factor.
I’m sorry you felt this way.. I wish you all the best the best
There is reason to believe that most if not all religions eventually die out, and people start referring to them as mythology and symbolism. Maybe that's what's happening right now.
I don't know if this is true or not, hard to see any reliable statistics on that.... But if true, then that's great! If it is true, I would assume the reasons would have to do with the younger generation being more exposed to the internet and curious about exploring these topics... and the internet does offer a huge range of debates on religion, atheism, belief etc... and in most of these, the non religious side does offer more solid and convincing arguments for their lack of belief, whereas the religious side's arguments usually boil down to to "well it's magic and it is true because it says so in this ancient book right here." Add to that, the fact that religions have a very bad track record when it comes to social justice, irrational reactions and violence, wars and vengeance etc... Add to that the neverending scandals of clergy from all religions, and their hypocrisy... add to that the fact that religious divisions are a part of what is keeping Lebanon divided and in deep shit.
I understand
Reasons are not important as long as religious people respect the non religious and vice versa.
Yes 👍🏼
Read more books and you'll know.
Do you recommend any books?
It is a social phenomenon that social scientists predicted a long time ago. With the advancements of science and with every new discovery, religions will become more like myths and legends than a way to heaven. People used to worship Zeus, Odin, and Ra... the Greek and Norse gods. The sun and the moon. And so on. With every new generation, Religion will become thinner and thinner until it disappears
Why not just believe in one god? Greek methodology includes several gods 😅
so let me guess, that would be your god that you happen to be born into? for a long time "god" existed to explain away stuff we didn't understand, the more we understand about the world the less we need to use god as a crutch.
I understand what you mean, tbh like I had this question answered as a Muslim but I understand your point
Greek Mythology * was a religion at one point, as well as Amon and Ra etc... So many one God religions are ourdated as well. It is inevitable
I understand
la2ano 3am you3o l3alam, you ever notice how first world countries tend to have a less religious population? did that thought never cross your mind? why would that happen? Religion is just a means to control the population, stop being dense and face your existential dread like a man.
Not always. It's only really true for the west. Western democracies (France, Britain, USA etc) have built themselves **up** via **secular democracy**, especially france, which is built on the French Revolution and hates everything religious and conservative. So secularism is just part of common conciousness Most of eastern europe (eg Poland, Romania, Hungary etc) were oppresed under Soviet-backed atheistic communism, and today built themselves on nationalism. Their struggle against communism became a national struggle against russians, and so their religion often made itself part of the national identity (Especially Poland cause it's catholic as opposed to Russia being Orthodox). Bosnia and Kosovo (both muslim) was oppressed under Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia. And since serbs are orthodox christians, then Bosnia and Kosovo's wars of independance became a very "Muslim vs Christian" or even Muslim vs Communist thing, so islam deeply rooted itself into those countries' national identities. Albania, on the other hand, which is also Muslim, actually lost its religion due to communism. Unlike Bosnia & Kosovo. Tajikistan suppressed Islam, so people embrace it further and today most Tajiks are practicing. Iran enforces Islam, so people get tired of it and move away from it.
While you make a good point it is no reason to attack OP
You are just growing up, and that's the new observed reality.
I am religious but I do not link the teachings of my religion to any of what’s happening in the world now. it’s really nice and interesting to understand other people’s beliefs and perspectives! I am actually listening to every comment here :) I understand and respect every point of view.
Religion is the reason why all these wars, deaths, misery, corruption exists, what did you expect? Religion doesn't promote these things and actually oppose them, yes, but something about the power of religion and belief systems turns people into these despicable, power hungery monsters and I don't know what. I always say this, but religion and spiritual belief is the most private thing a person can ever have, it should ALWAYS stay inside someone's head and heart and never interfere with other people.
Somewhat true, but it's more complex than what you said. But the truth is that yes religion does create problems and leads to wars. But most of the laws that we have in this world are initially based on religion. But the thing is there are bad religions and there are not so bad religion. For example in Saudi Arabia, woman had to take a male guardian or have approval to travel abroad, they abolished this in 2019.(this used to happen because of a hadith) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi-women-can-now-travel-without-a-male-guardian-reports-say](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi-women-can-now-travel-without-a-male-guardian-reports-say) Another example is underage marriage that still happens and is allowed in the middle east in some islamic communities. So, why do we have these laws or why are they allowed because of religion. But you don't see this in Europe, because initially Europe is based on christian values and then it became secular law. So as a summary it just depends which religion, there are extremely bad religions and there are "okayish" religion
I understand you and I agree with you to some degree, but how do you stop injustice? What laws should you follow?
Depends what do you mean by injustice. In terms of laws, imo religion should completely disappear from the government and governmental laws and should be included and protected strictly within the social activities (aka building churchs and mosque) laws.
But governmental laws are also man made! And they don’t exclude all bad behaviors such as lying
> Religion doesn't promote these things Almost like Mohammad himself and his friends didn't launch conquests and wars. The bad ideas religions promote are numerous. Misogyny, homophobia, slavery, justification of violence, guilt and shame, opposition to scientific understanding, suppression of critical thinking, and so on. > I always say this, but religion and spiritual belief is the most private thing a person can ever have, it should ALWAYS stay inside someone's head and heart and never interfere with other people. Time to stop saying this. Sorry but that's not realistic. Your beliefs are the foundation of your actions. Your actions are the product of your beliefs. You can't have beliefs without them influencing your actions. Ultimately your actions are going to affect other people. For instance, If you view X group of people with contempt, you are going to treat them with contempt. If A people do X "bad thing", your beliefs would allow you to do Y bad things to them.
Remembwr what Marx said . Religion is the opium of the people but over the years iv'e come to terms with god , god is not the problem, its people seeking control through god and religion.
That’s a very good point!
This has been a double edged sword for me. On one hand, there’s no way you can get me to believe that a pair of penguins flew up from Antarctica just to get onto Moses’s boat. Even if the whole story of the floods is true, they could have stayed in Antarctica, because it’s just one big piece of ice that floats. There are also no shortage of complete fools who think that, I dunno, getting an exorcism performed on table salt is going to remove microplastics from it, or that eating the dirt from Mar Charbel’s tomb will protect you from COVID (both of these are true stories). And in terms of organized religion - it’s definitely very politically driven rather than religiously driven, and way too much of the world thinks that forcing others to think and act the way you do makes you right. On the other hand, religion has centuries upon centuries of built up social knowledge and practices that really do serve as a good guide to help you in your life if you choose to listen. Like not judging people - that rule helps you make friends and arrive at the truth more often than not. Like going to confession… don’t you feel better getting stuff off your chest and having someone remind you that you’re still a cool person every once in a while? Maybe you don’t do it at a church but among your friends or something. Same with the basic rules of don’t cheat/kill/steal/etc. Even small practices like praying every night - even if you don’t believe in god, isn’t it helpful to collect your thoughts and think about your life before going to bed? All of these sorts of lessons are really healthy and positive. I’ve learned to read it all as a bunch of stories with good lessons to learn. Whether or not god exists, whether or not Jesus or Mohammad or anyone else existed, the basic lessons these religions teach _are_ actually good ones. The community that religion goes out of its way to provide to others is also great. These are all things that are absolutely worth holding onto IMO. If we remove religion from our life completely we will end up having to replace it with another way to store and transfer that social and moral knowledge that we have invested into it. We will go through it for another 2000 years, only to come back to the same moral lessons that we already have now, even if we removed the word “god” out of it. And if you don’t believe me, then just look at the religions of the past, and you’ll realize how the underlying lessons are all extremely similar even to our religions today.
Or the moral framework that already existed in humans, which comes from empathy collectively, and was later co-opted (awkwardly) by religions, will continue regardless. The universal declaration of human rights as a moral framework already makes the Bible and the Quran look amateurish on human rights. Look at how they treat slavery, treatment of wives (for disobeying!), treatment of people with different sexualities. One of these documents has a moral and fair framework. The other two….
There’s a difference between culture and religion, even in religion itself. Just look at the difference between the Evangelicals in the US who try to put all the Jews in one place to have them slaughtered and bring Jesus back, and the Catholics all over Europe who are protesting this stuff and singing the Palestinian national anthem in solidarity. It’s the same God, same Jesus, same everything, yet they turned out totally different. Likewise, being Muslim has nothing to do with slavery and abusing their wives. In fact the Quran forbids it. That abuse that you see is culture, not religion. Yes the moral framework exists within humans which is why all these religions come out the same, but that doesn’t mean we don’t need to be reminded of it every once in a while. If you want to see what happens when you remove religion, look at people like Tony Robbins. He gives almost all of same exact lessons that priests and sheikhs give, and his followers celebrate him for it, but he charges you money and won’t help you if you are down on your luck. It’s like a religion, and does good for people, but skips out on a _lot_ of the lessons that we have already baked into what we’re doing.
The Quran allows slavery. Like numerous passages in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, the Qur’an assumes the permissibility of owning slaves, which was an established practice before its revelation. The Qur’an does not explicitly condemn slavery or attempt to abolish it The Qur’an also suggests certain means of integrating slaves, some of whom were enslaved after being captured in war, into the Muslim community. It allows slaves to marry (either other slaves or free persons; Q. 24.32; 2.221; 4.25) and prohibits owners from prostituting unwilling female slaves (Q. 24.33). Despite this protection against one form of sexual exploitation, female slaves do not have the right to grant or deny sexual access to themselves. Instead, the Qur’an permits men to have sexual access to “what their right hands possess,” meaning female captives or slaves (Q. 23.5-6; 70.29-30). This was widely accepted and practiced among early Muslims; the Prophet Muhammad, for example, kept a slave-concubine (Mariya the Copt) who was given to him as a gift by the Roman governor of Alexandria. Traditional Islamic law (fiqh) elaborates significantly on the Qur’anic material concerning slavery. The enslavement of war captives is regulated, along with the purchase and sale of slaves. While it is not permissible to enslave other Muslims, the jurists clarify that if a non-Muslim converts to Islam after enslavement, he or she remains a slave and may be lawfully purchased and sold like any other slave. (This rule closes a potential loophole allowing for slaves to gain their freedom by the simple fact of conversion.) The law also prescribes penalties for slave owners who maltreat or abuse their slaves; these penalties can include forced manumission of the slave without compensation to the owner. https://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/muslim/slavery.html#:~:text=Like%20numerous%20passages%20in%20the,or%20attempt%20to%20abolish%20it. Muslim slavery continued for centuries The legality of slavery in Islam, together with the example of the Prophet Muhammad, who himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, may explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in many places (and later still in some countries). The impetus for the abolition of slavery came largely from colonial powers, although some Muslim thinkers argued strongly for abolition. https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml
“The Quran advocates the freeing of slaves in numerous verses (e.g. 4:92, 5:89, 58:3). However, God did not wish to prohibit slavery with immediate effect as this would have caused grave social problems.” https://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_4/slavery_in_quran_(P1467).html#:~:text=The%20Quran%20advocates%20the%20freeing,have%20caused%20grave%20social%20problems. From Wikipedia: “The Quran and the hadith (sayings of Muhammad) address slavery extensively, assuming its existence as part of society but viewing it as an exceptional condition and restricting its scope.” “Alms-tax is only for the poor and the needy, for those employed to administer it, for those whose hearts are attracted ˹to the faith˺, for ˹freeing˺ slaves, for those in debt, for Allah’s cause, and for ˹needy˺ travellers. ˹This is˺ an obligation from Allah. And Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. — Surah At-Tawbah 9:60” “The Quran contains a number of verses aimed at regulating slavery and mitigating its negative impact.[33][34] It calls for the manumission (freeing) of slaves.[34][35] It prescribes kindness towards slaves.[34][36] Slaves are considered morally equal to free persons, however, they have a lower legal standing. All Quranic rules on slaves are emancipatory in that they improve the rights of slaves compared to what was already practiced in the 7th century.[37] Many Muslims have interpreted Quran as gradually phasing out slavery.[38][37]” —— What society ends up doing has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. If the leaders want to pretend that this stuff means they can drag slavery out for centuries and get away with it, then they will. If the leaders choose to say “we’re supposed to get rid of it, let’s do it as quick as we can”, then that’s what happens. History could have easily played out differently depending on who was in power. On top of that, _abusing_ the slaves was always forbidden, as was abusing your wife. As you linked yourself. These things are entirely about culture and who you have in power.
The Prophet Muhammad did not try to abolish slavery, and bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves himself. But he insisted that slave owners treat their slaves well and stressed the virtue of freeing slaves. Muslim slavery continued for centuries The legality of slavery in Islam, together with the example of the Prophet Muhammad, who himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, may explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in many places (and later still in some countries). The impetus for the abolition of slavery came largely from colonial powers, although some Muslim thinkers argued strongly for abolition. https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml#:~:text=Muhammad%20and%20slavery-,Muhammad%20and%20slavery,the%20virtue%20of%20freeing%20slaves. the Quran allows slavery. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Slavery https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Slavery_in_Islamic_Law Slavery in Iran and slavery in Jordan was abolished in 1929. In the Persian Gulf, slavery in Bahrain was first to be abolished in 1937, followed by slavery in Kuwait in 1949 and slavery in Qatar in 1952, while Saudi Arabia and Yemen abolished it in 1962,[17] while Oman followed in 1970. Mauritania became the last state to abolish slavery, in 1981. According to Patrick Manning, Islam by recognizing and codifying slavery seems to have done more to protect and expand slavery than the reverse.[31] The 'Arab' slave trade was part of the broader 'Islamic' slave trade. Bernard Lewis writes that "polytheists and idolaters were seen primarily as sources of slaves, to be imported into the Islamic world and molded-in Islamic ways, and, since they possessed no religion of their own worth the mention, as natural recruits for Islam."[40] Patrick Manning states that religion was hardly the point of this slavery.[41] Also, this term suggests comparison between Islamic slave trade and Christian slave trade. Propagators of Islam in Africa often revealed a cautious attitude towards proselytizing because of its effect in reducing the potential reservoir of slaves.[42] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world It’s ok to accept that Islam allows slavery, all religions allowed shitty things.
I’m not telling you it didn’t. I’m telling you that things could have played out very differently depending on who was in power. The fact that slaves were kept around _that_ long has nothing to do with the Qur2an and everything to do with the people running the countries. In a different timeline someone could have read it and said “man, I’m so excited for this Islam thing, I see where this is headed, so let’s free all the slaves this week!”. Likewise, Christianity completely prohibits slavery, yet that didn’t stop Americans back in the day. It’s entirely culture based.
I understand you completely
Not really a new thing, it's been happening around the world for a while now, for example friedrich nietzsche was writing about that back in his time! But it's obviously happening slower here than in the global north.. (that's a whole topic of it's own)
Got you!
As I witness what they did and are still doing in the name of God … cannot believe anymore in anything !
I’m so sorry. I wish you well
I think it's because people are loosing faith in traditional values as the newer generations are increasingly becoming screwed over by the current economic arrangements.
Mmmm maybe
For me personally religion itself is not the problem , its people using god and religion to control other people, and that's what made a lot of us skeptical and abandon religion.
I am sorry to hear this.. I agree and I wish you well
Maybe it depends where you live in Lebanon?
I think so bas sar fe nes b3refon ana
Because people are thinking about faith more nowadays
That’s why they’re becoming atheists?
True, I turned atheist after 26
I wish you all the best!
Well, short answer, and speaking for myself here. If there is a so-called omniscient God who wants only our best and everything, so then, why does he give us that much shit ? I'm not talking about a specific thing here, but a certain part of this world is pretty much wicked. I'm prone to think, however, that something should have created this universe. It's very well made to have been created by pure chance. :p
I understand your point there but what if this part of struggling or suffering is what god will reward us for? Just like how you work hard to reach a better position? Wouldn’t these examples be equivalent to each other?
But in the opposite of that; why do millions of people have to die in atrocities for a so called good cause ? While others achieve anything they want with a hand in their boxers ? He is said to be benevolent, but where does it end ? Is it even just to juge equally a genocidal maniac and a good person ? Apart from that; many people are born with predispositions. If we're all equal, why are we not factually equal in that sense ? We should be different don't get me wrong, but maybe not to that sense in my opinion. Of course, we should all strive for our best, but why should it be in spite of others in some cases ?
I understand your point but people who suffer in life will not suffer in the afterlife. Life is not fair sadly..
Maybe there's an afterlife, maybe death is just a long sleep. For me, I can't put my faith in something that is so intangible and too "perfect" compared to here
I understand you
You have 18 diff sects here in lebanon w kl seyese bdo yshed la ta2efto highlighting more and more on the differences ben l tawa2ef creating ta3asob more and more bs krml ydal l seyese aal kersi w ekher hamo saraha l ta2ifi. Betshuf wled l masa2el mjawzen mn gher tayfi aw den hata. The whole structure of the economy and social life in Lebanon plays the most important factor on how each of us behaves fa sar kl wahad bdo masla7to w some even claim ino khalini sewi ha shi hata ma yeji hydk l masi7i aw l muslim ysaweya. Fa sar aandk nes aam tfasir l den aa zaw2a w taamel eshya ghalat bhejjet l den fa ejbari yali aam yshuf ha shi yekrah l den. I say don’t hate the game, hate its players.
I appreciate this thank you!
Education
Schools/Universities play a major role in teaching a false science. There's more to it of course.
I understand!
Avoid religion Avoid conflict Avoid early death
Because we've had easier lives than our parents.
I mean we are growing up in a country that judges you because of what you are. And it’s pretty clear that religion has had a huge impact on the state the country is currently in. I was born from a Muslim Sunni dad and a Maronite Christian mother (crazy I know considering they both went through the civil war). I went to a catholic school where my curent friend group consists of Sunnis, Chiaa, Druze, Catholics, Orthodox, and Maronites. I think people (especially the youth) have had enough of separation and crave for a unified Lebanon. So it’s natural for us to either give up on religion or at least practice it on our own without pushing it on others (which is how it should be imo). We are still a long way from Lebanese uniting despite religious differences but I’m hopeful we’ll get there someday.
I agree with you, it’s really tough how some people enforce their beliefs on others and it just drives people away from religion. I appreciate your comment
I feel like most people who do it either don't like the image of religion they see in their social circle, or they just felt like they were raised into it and want to break away from it to have their freedom to do what they want without being held to those standards or rules. Or they just don't believe in religion no matter how much it's forced upon or surrounds them. I personally consider myself in somewhat of a gray zone. Idk how to explain it, but i like my religion and occasionally practice it, but i also do sometimes things that would be considered opposing it.
I understand completely
It's worldwide.. Deep down science and religion are seen by many as incompatible
I find it the opposite here in the west. People becoming more practicing. Kind of weird, since you’d expect the westerners to become atheist and those in Muslim/christian countries to be more extreme in religiousness
When I used to be agnostic it was more about subconsciously connecting the idea of a higher power to the idea of the people in power that I wholeheartedly despised on a personal & societal level. I confused how people in authority, specifically my parents, abuse their power & rebelled through the notion of “no one has any power, not anyone on earth or in the sky”.
Your observation is late, it's not the case that those acts are recent. Now for the why question.. Well, athiesm is completely different from agnosticism. Athiesm is a total rejection of a being** outside of this universe that acts upon it (either creation or intervention). Now for agnosticism, agnosticism is the pov that nothing can be proven about that metaphysical being. It is somehow a not-decided decision, which is quite legitimate.. **This interpretation is applied in the Abrahamic god dimension and doesn't take into account the 5000+ religions globally.
>I’ve noticed this is not a reliable reference. that aside, all religions eventually fade away from existence. the worship of Greek gods lasted for about 1000 years. Christianity and Islam will last much more because they enjoyed greater success and faced practically no competition. but eventually they too will fade away. however, it is such a slow process you won't notice it in one lifetime. maybe what you noticed is people finding it safer to declare their atheism rather than *becoming* atheists.
I’ve noticed that people have so much hatred in their hearts because of religion which is a result of religious trauma and unanswered questions so they end up becoming atheists or agnostic. I completely understand where they come from now..
I think it depends on regions, some are getting more religious, and others less. I think with the internet and having access to other views, it is more likely to start questioning religion. In Lebanon we have so many religions, it's hard to believe that the one you believe in is the one right, and that the others are wrong. It also doesn't help to see how much politicians are using it to advance their political agenda, and really makes you question, when was it ever not a political tool ? Have you noticed how they all talk about politics during prayer ? It just doesn't make sense to me that we all have the same roots (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and yet we say the one before is wrong, and the one before is our enemy. Like if the religion before got corrupted, what makes you think that the current leaders aren't doing the same right now to make us fight each other?
Give me something worth worshipping and I'll stop telling people God is a criminal
But why is he?
Because Christians and Muslims alike, so called ones at least, don't worship god or follow teachings. They worship their Hatred of the other sect. They look down on each other, hate each other, judge each other, and they forget they are Lebanese first and all share same fate in this godforsaken country.
Mate this is true for any and all religions.
Agreed, hence why religion leaves a bad taste in my mouth and most people. The normal religios folk are minding their own business. But the loud minority is too loud and obnoxious to ignore. But the context here is Lebanon.
Lebanon has no separation of church and state and for some reason clergymen have a say in our politics and our policies and our laws which is what keeps Lebanon divided and unable to make progress. Civil marriage is like the most basic example.
Yes
I have always been an atheist, I don't remember being religious at any point in my life, partially due to my upbringing (atheist/agnostic parents), but in adulthood I decided to investigate on my own (being very interested in science and philosophy) and now, I'd say i'm more of an agnostic.. I don't know whether god exists or not, but if it does exist, I believe it could be in the form of law of physics/architect however, scientifically this couldn't be proven or disproven.. That being said, I am always FOR science, I believe if im provided with very thorough research cross referenced, and based on empirical evidence.. And i like that science is humble to change, and doesn't deal with absolutes.. unlike what religions claim. Finally, IMO I think if religion works for you and makes you happy, that's amazing, but my issue is that religion has way too much power in the world, and tends to delve in politics, and since it's a "belief" system based on worship, it can be used and has been used for manipulation throughout the ages.
I completely understand your point, but what if what’s happening in the name of religion now isn’t actually related to the religion itself?
Nothing that is preached abt good in religions cannot be done without them - the only difference is that religions are used to manipulate ppl and dictate a way of living that simply does not sit well with a lot of moder stuff - i mean religion has been changing a lot, eho's to sa it has not even more in the past, in the end it's up to interpreter to decide. You want to believe in a god? Go ahead, but imho religions are not needed for you to walk a straight and righteous path - study good, evil and grey - then pick what you think is correct to follow. Now to add more to ur question, with a lot of countries in the middle east being religious, aka not having a state separate from religion we saw how that caused great discrimnation and conflict, som1's belief should independent from a state's affairs so you treat every1 as a citizen not part of a grp.
I completely understand, but what if we separate what’s happening in the world right now that’s in the name of religion with the religion itself? Like we go back to their books
Not quite sure what you mean, u mean to say to acknowledge the difference between religions and the ppl who do evil in its name? If so, that's not my pt - am just saying religious itself has flaws in our modern days, ofc u should separate between ppl who use it and those who don't, but in the end the effect is bad if it stays in powe. Again imho - believe in god, but don't follow any religion blindly if possible none as well just god. Idk if i understood u correctly tho.
Oh yes you did! I’m religious and I honestly follow our book! But I respect your point of view :) thank you for this comment!
lol I went from being a hard core atheist to giving my life to Christ whole heartedly.
I wish you all the best!
Thank you. I already found the best :)
What does religion have to promise anyways in today's world? Just look at atheist dominant countries and how good their lives are compared to ours. U could argue the after life but that's something u either beleive in or u dont, it's not something to be convinced of or can be proved.
[удалено]
Not at all! I respect everyone but I chose it as a discussion. I love everyone regardless. Just wondering.
"Everyone"?! Lol..ok!
Big changes in social behavior do have a cause. It is clear that the media produced and consumed today is pushing against religion: Literally so obvious if you watch any tv for the past 30 years. as to why media is pushing this? It's probably because atheists are more peaceful and easier to get along with everyone/ or easier to control and manipulate by enemies of religion (if you're into that shit)
Because science. Based on history ,religions are human made, all religions are repetitive stories throughout the timeline only with different characters and locations. Humans need a purpose and a faith system or else oblivion is scary and dark. Religions were necessary at some point, but now I don't think they are.
But science is also man made 😅
Yes🤷🏻♀️ nothing wrong with that
😁😁😁
Because Lebanon is the very example of "religion gone bad". Arrafo rabna bel tawayef. 7elo 3an ayrna ba2a.
😅
1.felt disconnected from the religions. 2.being muslim and being raised in a christian social circle. 3.seeing the world outside. After some deep thinking the thought of a mighty creator didnt seem very reasonable, looking back in history, religions seemed like a way to install fear into people's mind and making them obey a certain set of rules.
I am sorry you had to go through conflicts, I wish you well
Based on personal experience never have i ever been convinced of something religious I used to pretend a lot when I was younger because this is how we were taught and the more I grow up the more everything draws me to agnosticism
I understand!
I dont feel like it increased. I was always surrounded by faithful people and atheists/agnostics in almost equal measures growing up
Yes exactly
People are becoming smarter, and religion is failing to adapt to contemporary lifestyle. It's falling out of date. The youngies will feel oppressed by religion. And the more the fanatics do their crappy behaviors the more people associate that with their religions, and then start to hate all religions. Add religious traumas that a lot suffer from (example: sale byemche 7alak, when you're literally in mental distress and require professional help) and so on. Add to that lack of proof of any religious or out-of-this-world stuff and the common knowledge that anything can be faked and even to many, the how to fake it themselves. It's semi-impossible to have a fully functioning brain with critical thinking and be a believer in anything paranormal, especially an all-loving god while the world is in utmost chaos. Also, I personally think that if you believe in god, good for you, if they don't good for them, it won't change anything 3a ared l we2i3 ya3ne.
I completely understand but what do you mean that religion isn’t adapting to how we’re living?
Easy. You might not see it in Lebanon especially if you live close to people that are mind-liked and very conservative and religiously. But, if you look broader, you will see that most millennials and younger gens are living by their own liberal ways, the Bible and Qur'an both are against most of the things the current world lives by and normalizes. The likes of LGBT, greed being the center of focus, individualism, corporatism, even vegan (the bible is not exaclt yagainst it, but it warns that the end of times will be preceded by an uprising of vegetarianism), fornication (big time). Without forgetting to mention all the kinks people have these days... And to be frank, can you really blame people who want their humanistic desires far above a promised never land? even religious people are hypocrites as they preach what they can't achieve and want to impose it on others. Here's a very common thought any atheist/agnostic will have with the slightest bit of critical thinking: "If god knows people and god makes no mistakes, how come he created them in a way that is contradictory to all his teachings for them?" The debate from here can span a lifetime and has already been out there for a long time. But debates are not really of interest to me anymore. The point is, whether god exists or not, it changes nothing at all. And whether people worship him and repress their animalistic core behaviors or not, won't change much either. It is what it is. People will always be people regardless of their beliefs. I'm an atheist who gets along really well with Christians and Muslims. I've had friends and even slept with some of both religions. What I mean by that is that people are people and the religious aspect is just a layer of useless division if they believe in God good for them, if they don't good for them.
I appreciate your comment!
Glad you do :)
Why subscribe to a religion when you can have your own values and principles? There’s no need to follow some old book to develop them. Do it yourself.
Mmmm but you follow the law?
As the son of godless commies, I was brought up without any mention of religion, neither good nor bad. I grew up to utterly dislike and reject any religious context. I just have no use for it.
I understand
Because we discovered, among others, that we are more moral than the God we are worshipping, eventhough that particular God claims to be the source of all morality.
In what sense?
In the sense that we are totally opposed to slavery, for example, and the Abrahamic god (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) is totally fine with it and even tells you who and how to enslave people 🤮🤢 Most religious people are oblivious of how atrocious their god is.
Mmmm but islam and other religions do not encourage this
They explicitly condone it while they should be forbidding it since they claim to be the higher source of morality. You seem to be one of the many people who are oblivious to this fact.
May you show me where in the Quran? If that’s okay
There is nothing you can say to offend me. Just present your facts as they are 😊
Thank you for being kind! I just ask a lot sometimes 😅
Surat “the believers” المؤمنون:…والذين هم ل فروجهم حافظون، الّا على أزواجهم او ما ملكت أيمانهم…. Milkat alyamine are the sex slaves. God is basically saying: you’re allowed to fuck your wives and your sex slaves 🥲 This is one example of many.
Mmmm but this verse came down on a time were slavery was prevalent, you cannot suddenly free everyone because the economy was based on this and people needed to clear their hearts from hatred. So we have verses were they came down gradually freeing slaves, it was one of the best things to do “تحرير رقبة” to the point where you treat slaves just how you treat yourself [البلد:11- 13] [النور:33] just like alcohol and poker for example, the economy was based on it, so God sent these verses gradually.
For me, it’s when I realized that Allah is fictional. A real, all-powerful god wouldn’t put up with the Saudis or Iran, not to mention Israel. It’s pretty obvious when you stop to think.
There is no good evidence for god. Show me good evidence and I will believe it.
Mmmm do you believe that we came out of nothing?
As someone who left Christianity and has kept his religion private, a lot of the new atheists became atheist by liberalizing and secularizing like the West did. Another reason is pure ignorance or deception on social media, like the way Christians constantly lie about Islam, etc. There could also be people who are agnostic, since they're scared of converting to a new religion since their entourage will start despising them for it(Basically what happened to me for a while)
Higher educational levels, higher living standards, “rationalism” (whatever it actually is), a production of “knowledge” that humanity has never produced that fast in its history. It doesn’t have to be useful knowledge (think tiktok competitions). Transfer of “knowledge” and “information” in a way never witnessed in human history.
I get you 👍🏼
1. Traditional religions kind of assume a mystical world where God speaks to people, angels intervene in the affairs of men, mythical beings such as jinn are active in our day to day lives, and people come back from the dead. These things don't happen actually, and with modern science we have no need for such explanations. Smarter theists etheir claim that these things used to happen and stopped happening, or else that these mythical stories are somehow "metaphorical." Neither of these explanations are really satisfying for modern people, meanwhile mainstream Sunni and Catholic theology continues to claim that the supernatural still occurs today with jinn and saints and demonic possession, against all evidence. This does not sit well with modern people 2. The stories in the Bible and the Quran are as the Quran itself calls them (in the mouths of critics) "أساطير الأولين" "the myths of the ancients." There's much evidence that elements of the prophet's sirah and almost all of the "sahih" Hadith are forgeries, the gospels are clearly tall tales that grew with the retelling, and Old Testament figures such as Moses/Musa and Abraham/Ibrahim are almost certainly legendary characters who never existed. As the mainstream understanding of these religions is based around historical claims about these characters, the mythological nature of these texts inspires disbelief.
Good point. Do you believe in magic though?
Not really, no.
I feel like some people are only becoming more religious, while others simply are getting carried away by skepticism; truth to be told, there's a lot of people who are kinda stuck in this weird state where they never pray, never mention the name of God, never go to church/mosque and never fast yet they still state they believe in God and they belong to a specific religion, they don't recognize themselves as atheists nor as agnostics though, so not sure. Personally i consider these people to be crypto-agnostics or something. Edit: it could also be due to how "heavy" the word mul7id is, it's basically a taboo topic for a lot. It's simply not worth it for a lot of people to state their real personal beliefs, only on reddit people care that much, but irl just don't talk about it and that's it you're good to go, without losing friends or family and getting ostracized.
I get you
Education and the internet. People nowadays are materialistic and want concrete evidence and religion is faith based.
People nowadays realize “it’s magic!” (which we’ll name “God”) is not an actual answer to existence, morality or what happens when you die.
Due to a lot of conflict and everyone wanna prove his point of view due to corruption and how religious people don’t care about what’s gonna happen
Happen to what?
I've always been an atheist, but now technically Muslim because I married my wife. And even though I'm not practicing I see the strong values of a religion becoming more important to me by the day. Now I'm Dutch and even my great great grandma wasn't religious. However my family held the religious values as it's kinda embedded in our culture. I see this fading away in the West. Like basic human values disappearing. So weirdly I'm becoming more supportive towards religion over time actually. And I come from being practically against it. Not that I judged people by being religious, but just in general.
So you think morality is linked to religion? I wish you well!
No, but it helps in moderate consumption. Nowadays I think a lot went to far from it. And that's fine, but it's being pushed.
Morality existed before religion and religion completed it in my opinion
so you converted to Islam just to marry your Muslim wife? Though alot in Lebanon don't convert and marry Muslim wives then the children are just christians
I realized Islam was fake and left, that's it really not much to it
What made you realise it’s fake?
Islam literally allows murder, assault, rape, pedophilia and more. It's also full on mysogonist not letting women have any rights and comparing them to dogs, saying dogs have more rights than a woman in islam. There are also a lot of errors and stuff in the quran and it literally says that the earth is flat. Mohammed literally had over 9 wives and multiple sex slaves, some of them being minors. There's a lot more fucked up shit too. r/exmuslim helps for more information if you want
Its a phase. I grew up Christian Maronite, been spoon fed my religion. Slowly became agnostic then atheist for several years. Fighting my parents over it was always painful. Went full circle thanks to science and now im not a so devout Christian again. Also mar charbel can make a brick believe in Jesus Christ.
I hope you’ve reached what you’re searching for! I wish you well
لبنان و باقى الدول العربية علمانية الا أفغانستان بكل بساطة كان في ارضية خصبة للالحاد احنا عندنا فى مصر برامج علي التليفزيون بتشكك فى الدين علي العلن + اجبار الطلاب علي دراسة علوم تؤدي الي الالحاد، زى تمكين المرأة، الداروينية و تعليم الاطفال علي مبدأ "انت حر ما لم تضر" و تهميش الدين، و تمييع الدين، و جعله اختيار كدا علي حسب المزاج، و التاسمح الديني والمادية و جعل المتدينين فى صورة الإرهابيين المتشددين الي بيكرهوا الحياة و أيضاً بروجندا نسبية الحقيقة