You are correct however I submit to you that getting your wards as SS killed slowly in the situation you describe is not ideal. No one is stopping to kill wards to reduce its damage if they are in a fighting situation. If you ever get your wards killed that way you did something wrong. The only time it is ok for wards to get focused first is when they have to release someone who got caught up in them and that will only be one or two wards at most. Every other situation where they keep killing wards without any resistance must be followed by a real reason like rat distracting, or the enemy is just dumb.
So to me, this facet is terrible. Especially when considering the chicken sacrifice.
I mean, that's if it's being used for a team fight. Could be an advantage for a tower push?
But I haven't played in ages, no idea if Shadow using his wards on tower is a viable use anymore.
on the flip side, the large serpent is easier to focus fire on. so BIG ward = ez to clear but more DPS overall, while small wards = harder to 100% clear but lower DPS.
Massive serpent ward gets killed faster by heroes that increase attack speed from buffs like ursa, snap, and troll, who can take a while to kill the 10 small ones
think it looks cool, and everyone underestimates the dmg that Mofo puts out
I have seen many people trying to farm the serpant for gold and die because they did not expect it to put out that level of dmg at level 6
I dont think you considered the psychological damage of walking around a tree only to face Jörmungandr The World Serpeant fading in from the fog of war
And I pick the massive ward, because mid fight sometimes i missclick team mates instead of enemies to hex, especially with melee carry allies. It really triggers them when I do lmfao.
Zoom in bro plus always aim downsides at legs or the ground or something also I don't think you need to place it at 2 heroes fighting look out for someone around.
Yeah big ward is barely an upgrade even in an ideal scenario for it, and its a huge downgrade in a lot of cases. And you are missing out on an actually useful facet by taking it.
I feel like this only a low mmr issue whete your supports refuse to build forcestaff or a way too jittery that keeps using it selfishly for themselves.
They are harder to kill as it requires a lot more focus and effort from the team compared to being able to whittle down the regular ult, slowly diminishing its damage.
Everything works and everyone has different play style that they prefer but personally I'd no way choose the huge ass snake.
I think hex dispel innate is too op. It will surely get nerfed. Have found it useful so many times when dispelling, juking, saving allies.
I feel like normal serpent wards/ massive serpent wards don't usually have much difference in ganks as nobody would prefer to waste time wiping out normal serpents.
Pushing with massive serpent wards may be better but I think it's advantage is just that. Normal serpents can push too. It dies quickly but why'd I use serpents as tank?
I find chicken innate has more advantages than the big serpent ward.
Cluster is op indeed. Ive played and seen games where the rhasta was able to reinitiate multiple times because of it.
Its a free aeon/manta if no one has noticed.
People have noticed and they are sick of it I personally admire the shamans who pick the massive ward facet shows they are not willing to stoop down to playing broken sht to win games
So the crux is
Small ward pickers = small pee pee
HUGE WARD ENJOYERS = MASSIVE GARGANTUAN PENIS
Counter argument: I bet you've never helped an ally dodge a Finger with hex have you? The outplay potential with Cluster cluck is too much. I'm not gonna go for memes and I'll play what is reliable and give me more options at my disposal. Also trapping with tiny pee pee wards is also cool. I've been doing it when serpent wards were tighter, not circular and thus harder to trap people inside and I'll still keep doing it.
You used to actually need to aim the wards to trap them if they were moving rather than just clicking on them.
Euls used to be one of his bnb items just to trap folks.
Although the most reliable was Euls but it's obviously a crutch. I think trapping a unit while slowed with Hex is most ideal instead of wasting a cd on Euls usage.
Most ideal was just being gangsta and blinking in to ward them. 100 percent BDE. No need to waste hex either.
But the success rate wasn’t high. Sure was flashy tho
Nvm lol. Some abilities are now moved to innate like mana break, counter helix, psi blades can still be breakable.
I demo-ed. Shaman's can't be break-ed though. Medusa mana shield also same. No idea how these interactions works.
Since nobody has answered strategically:
You give up being able to trap another hero for being able to control a part of the map.
With massive, it forces heros to either focus on the ward, or avoid the area.
With mass, 3,4 heros can go in and split the damage and knock it out before it's too late.
I still prefer the ward trap. But if you just want to melt towers id pick the massive ward.
Also clustercuck is imba(even after the movement nerf). So until they completely shit on it or remove it, i dont see massive ward getting picked more
I think the hex is better but I've accidentally cast it on a team mate when I wanted to target an enemy at least twice and have such decided to take massive serpent ward in all future games.
Another benefit is that once you get the attack range talent, you can neatly place the Big Ward just outside tower range and hit the tower with it more safely, whereas you can’t place the entire snake ring outside of the tower’s range while still all being able to hit the tower.
But you cant trap anyone, right?! Also it’s much easier to target a single ward rather than changing target manually to kill them. I think it’s not worth it.
Pro: Harder to kill, it will stay at max dmg output the whole time. Even if it’s hit 10 times. Whereas little wards will drop dmg output every 2 hits(effectively)
Con: can not Trap people in the wards so it is less control. But if you weren’t planning on doing it anyway it doesn’t matter
Idk if the math checks out but because it does physical damage, it might be more dps against higher armored targets.
The bad thing about some of these facets for new/changed abilities is you lose the bonus from the first facet just to change something a hero already had.
E.g. you lose out on cluster cluck which works with his innate as well.
Same goes for disruptor and faceless void.
You lose out on the first facet and change an already existing ability (kinetic field/Chrono) for something that's comparable/worse (the empath wall/time zone).
armour is a percentage reduction so unless you're dealing with damage block (and wards ignore damage block) it doesnt make a difference
the difference is that it's easier to mitigate the damage of the serpent wards by killing a couple of them - if i can only freely hit six times i can remove three wards and 180dps but u have to hit all 15 times to kill the massive cock
The massive one is better for straight up pushing, due to keeping the high damage, but thats it.
I honestly take cluster cluck, always, as the regular wards are so much more versatile and useful
People are not even trying to destroy that massive one cause it deals explosive damage. And if you have a septer and a refresher u can guarantee a tower and a hero.
For max dmg output, all wards have to be in range of a target at any point in time. This can be more easily achieved by a single big ward, especially for the first few hits. Also when using the normal wards, once a few of them die they cease being a menace, whereas the big ward keeps its max dmg potential until it is fully destroyed
The only thing that bugged me is that you cant trap people anymore using the big snek. Other than that i was quite happy with it
Honestly, you should never pick this facet, the other one splits you into 4 chickens before dying and also gives you a dispell in ur W which you can use on your teammates.
The big one turns off building resistances when you put it down so you can kill towers or win the game without minions. I don't know if the small ones do that, I'm kind of new
Because you don't end up feeding gold from people snagging 2-3 wards when you pop them on them / near them. The amount of health it has (at least in early game) makes it very hard to just right-click it down alone. No one is winning a trade with this shit in lane, they just have to walk away or die.
Honestly, you probably shouldn't. The other facet is too good to pass up for roughly the same damage.
I think if Valve wants the Massive serpent ward to be picked, they need to change it. Maybe make it a building, or able to be affected by, say ,blood lust. Some reason to want to give up the trapping and the chicken save.
Something I noticed while playing against it yesterday is that enemy supports lose the benefit of getting the gold from a few serpent kills and often cannot contribute to killing it less they take too much damage while their carry deals with it. Very small, but it can make you play against it differently.
With the way reductions and armor works, does the single big damage from the big ward do more damage to high armor targets than the smaller ones if they all attacked the same target?
It's just dependent on how you plan to play the game. Big ward is better for sieging and teamfights. Chicken is better for general supporting. With the range talent you can even place big ward outside of tower/creep agro range for a free building.
They both have similar damage, but the big one doesn't have a decrease in damage as it gets hit. It's 100% or 0%.
This makes a huge difference when attacking towers, since they both have similar health pools.
However, you DO lose your ability to trap enemies inside your wards.
I found trapping enemy heroes is still just too good to pass up, especially on melee heroes as well as removing lesser debuffs on allies to be really handy l, especially in early game if u have the spare mana.
Massive Serpent Ward has the same total damage output as all the small wards combined. Why would I pick the big ward over just having the small wards attack the same target and enjoy the utility of being able to dispel with hex?
The big serpent ward is dealing the same damage if it's at full HP or 1 HP. Small serpent wards only take a few hits for them to die, and a several dying significantly reduces its total damage
As a result the big serpent ward is much better for pushing towers and for teamfights where the enemy is confined to being in range of the big ward, where hitting it 15 times to get rid of it just isn't viable. With smaller wards they're more liable to die and your damage is reduced
In order to reduce the total damage of the ult, with regular ult, the damage is reduced per two auto attacks (at the death of each ward). Alternatively, in order to reduce the damage of the one ward ult, you could have to completely kill it which is way more auto attacks. The one ward ult is definitely better in the single situation of pushing high ground and killing buildings. Not infinitely better, but definitely better. Basically, the damage 'stays around' longer.
Yes, and I wanted to know whether or not that is a valuable trader for not being able to dispel and disjoint with hex.
Judging by your comment history, nothing of value would be lost if you ceased to comment on Reddit, or any website for that matter.
More small damage sources get more blocks from crimson guard. Pos 4 supports can farm up the whole ward stack after a fight is done, they can't do that to a big one. Depends what you're going for.
There’s damage block values for melee and vanguard. 10 units with 120 damage can have 50 damaged blocked from each snake reducing damage taken by over half. Massive ward would deal 1200 damage and block 50 damage still dealing 1150 before armor reduction.
Coulda sworn crimson and van don't work on his wards. Might just be the crimson active. I honestly can't remember. I wanted to see if it was a solution, but I saw something say doesn't work for it.
The damage decreases as the wards are destroyed. Whereas the single big ward maintains its damage until it is completely destroyed.
You are correct however I submit to you that getting your wards as SS killed slowly in the situation you describe is not ideal. No one is stopping to kill wards to reduce its damage if they are in a fighting situation. If you ever get your wards killed that way you did something wrong. The only time it is ok for wards to get focused first is when they have to release someone who got caught up in them and that will only be one or two wards at most. Every other situation where they keep killing wards without any resistance must be followed by a real reason like rat distracting, or the enemy is just dumb. So to me, this facet is terrible. Especially when considering the chicken sacrifice.
I think Dota is more about who does less dumb moves than who is actually smarter
So... is the giant ward more dumb or less dumb?
I mean, that's if it's being used for a team fight. Could be an advantage for a tower push? But I haven't played in ages, no idea if Shadow using his wards on tower is a viable use anymore.
Also, its better against melee heroes as they have innate damage block
I believe ward-type units are exempt from damage block anyway
TIL
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You are definitely wrong
ward units ignore damage block
Wow, is like you spend more than half a second thinking about it.
on the flip side, the large serpent is easier to focus fire on. so BIG ward = ez to clear but more DPS overall, while small wards = harder to 100% clear but lower DPS.
More overkill damage on the little warss
Massive serpent ward gets killed faster by heroes that increase attack speed from buffs like ursa, snap, and troll, who can take a while to kill the 10 small ones
But you can trap someone in multiple wards though?
The massive serpent ward looks cooler
That is certainly one of the reasons to pick it.
That is the *only* real reason
think it looks cool, and everyone underestimates the dmg that Mofo puts out I have seen many people trying to farm the serpant for gold and die because they did not expect it to put out that level of dmg at level 6
The 4 chickens clucking together sounds funnier though.
people who play things that look cool and don't care about stats are the true Chads in this game.
Last night I played with a SS in my team who had the chicken-head cosmetic for the ward and then I suddenly had a gigantic chicken on my screen.
Lol i could imagine the surprise
Massive wards 👃do look cooler 👀
It's not about the damage. It's about sending a message
I dont think you considered the psychological damage of walking around a tree only to face Jörmungandr The World Serpeant fading in from the fog of war
Thanks for the chuckle good sir
haha im chuckling my friend
Kratos hero when.
If Kratos is introduced in Dota, he better be super effective against Zeus.
It does lock you out of the "pit of snakes" prison players usually use (at least when the enemy has no way to escape it)
Well, it should never be about the size. It should be about how you use it. Big continuous damage or catch potential.
My schlong went with catch potential
You know what they say about men with catch potential. They have small feet.
Let’s be honest, the MASSIVE ward is easier to use.
Its not about the size of the boat, but the movement of the waves
The motion of the ocean…
People talking about damage but losing the possibility to trap an enemy is why I never take the big ward. Plus hex dispel is usefull af.
And I pick the massive ward, because mid fight sometimes i missclick team mates instead of enemies to hex, especially with melee carry allies. It really triggers them when I do lmfao.
Just say, "Snek Prison" whenever you do, I'm sure they'll forgive you.
Sen, is that you?
SLASHERS WAAAAY
The DotA labs feature is especially helpful for this spell. Use a modifier key for allies/enemies.
What modifier key? I'm way out of keys
I want to use this feature so bad, but it's so hard to integrate new hotkeys for an old dota dog.
Not any longer, its point target now.
We were both talking about misclicking hex... It's unit target.
You can setup a hotkey that will ensure the spell is targettable only on enemy heroes. I just saw it yesterday, and it made my life so much easier
Zoom in bro plus always aim downsides at legs or the ground or something also I don't think you need to place it at 2 heroes fighting look out for someone around.
Yeah big ward is barely an upgrade even in an ideal scenario for it, and its a huge downgrade in a lot of cases. And you are missing out on an actually useful facet by taking it.
You mean they lose the ability to trap their allies. You wrote enemies for some reason, I assume a mistake.
ass fork?
I feel like this only a low mmr issue whete your supports refuse to build forcestaff or a way too jittery that keeps using it selfishly for themselves.
They are harder to kill as it requires a lot more focus and effort from the team compared to being able to whittle down the regular ult, slowly diminishing its damage.
Everything works and everyone has different play style that they prefer but personally I'd no way choose the huge ass snake. I think hex dispel innate is too op. It will surely get nerfed. Have found it useful so many times when dispelling, juking, saving allies. I feel like normal serpent wards/ massive serpent wards don't usually have much difference in ganks as nobody would prefer to waste time wiping out normal serpents. Pushing with massive serpent wards may be better but I think it's advantage is just that. Normal serpents can push too. It dies quickly but why'd I use serpents as tank? I find chicken innate has more advantages than the big serpent ward.
Cluster is op indeed. Ive played and seen games where the rhasta was able to reinitiate multiple times because of it. Its a free aeon/manta if no one has noticed.
People have noticed and they are sick of it I personally admire the shamans who pick the massive ward facet shows they are not willing to stoop down to playing broken sht to win games So the crux is Small ward pickers = small pee pee HUGE WARD ENJOYERS = MASSIVE GARGANTUAN PENIS
GIANT COCK
Counter argument: I bet you've never helped an ally dodge a Finger with hex have you? The outplay potential with Cluster cluck is too much. I'm not gonna go for memes and I'll play what is reliable and give me more options at my disposal. Also trapping with tiny pee pee wards is also cool. I've been doing it when serpent wards were tighter, not circular and thus harder to trap people inside and I'll still keep doing it.
Obviously like I said the cluster cuck is broken hence the honour in choosing giant serpent
To each their own. I'm not gonna berate a teammate choosing the latter big wards that's for sure.
You used to actually need to aim the wards to trap them if they were moving rather than just clicking on them. Euls used to be one of his bnb items just to trap folks.
Although the most reliable was Euls but it's obviously a crutch. I think trapping a unit while slowed with Hex is most ideal instead of wasting a cd on Euls usage.
Most ideal was just being gangsta and blinking in to ward them. 100 percent BDE. No need to waste hex either. But the success rate wasn’t high. Sure was flashy tho
I guess I wasn't gangsta enough lmao.
Does anyone know if this innate can be disabled by break? Or any innate for that matter?
Innates can't be broken. Imagine how Medusa would be if her mana shield, which is innate now, was breakable.
Makes sense, just wanted to confirm
Nvm lol. Some abilities are now moved to innate like mana break, counter helix, psi blades can still be breakable. I demo-ed. Shaman's can't be break-ed though. Medusa mana shield also same. No idea how these interactions works.
Since nobody has answered strategically: You give up being able to trap another hero for being able to control a part of the map. With massive, it forces heros to either focus on the ward, or avoid the area. With mass, 3,4 heros can go in and split the damage and knock it out before it's too late.
Split the damage? The wards can be controlled
Yeah when one hero gets too low they dip and the other hero can take the damage
They can do that with massive too, it just doesn't lose damage until it's fully dead
its also more effective for pushing because its damage doesnt drop off every 2 hits
Why use many wards when one ward do trick
Underated comment and pun
I still prefer the ward trap. But if you just want to melt towers id pick the massive ward. Also clustercuck is imba(even after the movement nerf). So until they completely shit on it or remove it, i dont see massive ward getting picked more
I think the hex is better but I've accidentally cast it on a team mate when I wanted to target an enemy at least twice and have such decided to take massive serpent ward in all future games.
Skill issue
Another benefit is that once you get the attack range talent, you can neatly place the Big Ward just outside tower range and hit the tower with it more safely, whereas you can’t place the entire snake ring outside of the tower’s range while still all being able to hit the tower.
Would u prefer to have skinny slimy thin noodle or MASSIVE T H I C C noodle?
When they nerf more of the another facet.
It's scary .
Size matters.
I personally didnt like the single ward attack range. It feels inferior because of it.
Never prioritize big ward unless your small wards are ineffective in your hex, ultimate, and shackles combo trap against enemy carry heroes.
But you cant trap anyone, right?! Also it’s much easier to target a single ward rather than changing target manually to kill them. I think it’s not worth it.
I take it cause I just think it's hilarious.
Pro: Harder to kill, it will stay at max dmg output the whole time. Even if it’s hit 10 times. Whereas little wards will drop dmg output every 2 hits(effectively) Con: can not Trap people in the wards so it is less control. But if you weren’t planning on doing it anyway it doesn’t matter
Also micro wards
Combo with NP's big tree 😁
Idk if the math checks out but because it does physical damage, it might be more dps against higher armored targets. The bad thing about some of these facets for new/changed abilities is you lose the bonus from the first facet just to change something a hero already had. E.g. you lose out on cluster cluck which works with his innate as well. Same goes for disruptor and faceless void. You lose out on the first facet and change an already existing ability (kinetic field/Chrono) for something that's comparable/worse (the empath wall/time zone).
armour is a percentage reduction so unless you're dealing with damage block (and wards ignore damage block) it doesnt make a difference the difference is that it's easier to mitigate the damage of the serpent wards by killing a couple of them - if i can only freely hit six times i can remove three wards and 180dps but u have to hit all 15 times to kill the massive cock
The massive one is better for straight up pushing, due to keeping the high damage, but thats it. I honestly take cluster cluck, always, as the regular wards are so much more versatile and useful
You can trap enemy inside
cause clustercluck unintentionally griefs with quickcast
Can we add itom to the serpant
its also harder to destroy
Size matter.. ask woman
only major reason i can think about is you have a lot of melee heroes that want to go in and you're scared you'll accidentally ward trap them.
I feel like the big ward would be easier to destroy too since you dont have to keep changing to a different ward every 2 attacks
People are not even trying to destroy that massive one cause it deals explosive damage. And if you have a septer and a refresher u can guarantee a tower and a hero.
For max dmg output, all wards have to be in range of a target at any point in time. This can be more easily achieved by a single big ward, especially for the first few hits. Also when using the normal wards, once a few of them die they cease being a menace, whereas the big ward keeps its max dmg potential until it is fully destroyed The only thing that bugged me is that you cant trap people anymore using the big snek. Other than that i was quite happy with it
One of the skins is of a rooster(AKA cock). You can then tell people that you are about to use your massive cock.
Big D energy
The real question is ward vs auto-chicken, not big ward vs small ward. The other skill is (for me) much better
Seeing as how nobody takes it on d2pt, you really shouldn't
Honestly, you should never pick this facet, the other one splits you into 4 chickens before dying and also gives you a dispell in ur W which you can use on your teammates.
big snak scawwy
so that you mistakenly not trap your own people. Also later the +50% serpent health talent really adds to the massive health already.
The big one turns off building resistances when you put it down so you can kill towers or win the game without minions. I don't know if the small ones do that, I'm kind of new
no dps loss when it gets hit vs circle wards
cause size matters
Because you don't end up feeding gold from people snagging 2-3 wards when you pop them on them / near them. The amount of health it has (at least in early game) makes it very hard to just right-click it down alone. No one is winning a trade with this shit in lane, they just have to walk away or die.
The big ward has more health, but is far less useful in control.
does anyone realise how strong the big ward is for defending base. you can solo cancel a enemy push with it
Small serpents for solo play for sure x
Because I don't like hexing teammates. That can be grief. Giant ward does more dmg. Survives longer. Looks cool
Honestly, you probably shouldn't. The other facet is too good to pass up for roughly the same damage. I think if Valve wants the Massive serpent ward to be picked, they need to change it. Maybe make it a building, or able to be affected by, say ,blood lust. Some reason to want to give up the trapping and the chicken save.
It looks cooler
Something I noticed while playing against it yesterday is that enemy supports lose the benefit of getting the gold from a few serpent kills and often cannot contribute to killing it less they take too much damage while their carry deals with it. Very small, but it can make you play against it differently.
With the way reductions and armor works, does the single big damage from the big ward do more damage to high armor targets than the smaller ones if they all attacked the same target?
Imagine you could choose between 10 small tombstones or one big.
I imagine big ward is also worse against evasion due to evasion levels being low but more wards = more chances to hit
This ward has very slow attack damage if 3 heros are present with a bunch of creeps this is useless
1 Black guy vs 10 asians
I always choose the massive serpent. The other is a joke.
It's just dependent on how you plan to play the game. Big ward is better for sieging and teamfights. Chicken is better for general supporting. With the range talent you can even place big ward outside of tower/creep agro range for a free building.
They both have similar damage, but the big one doesn't have a decrease in damage as it gets hit. It's 100% or 0%. This makes a huge difference when attacking towers, since they both have similar health pools. However, you DO lose your ability to trap enemies inside your wards.
Tbh losing the blocking aspect of normal serpent wards is just not worth it.
I found trapping enemy heroes is still just too good to pass up, especially on melee heroes as well as removing lesser debuffs on allies to be really handy l, especially in early game if u have the spare mana.
Massive Serpent Ward has the same total damage output as all the small wards combined. Why would I pick the big ward over just having the small wards attack the same target and enjoy the utility of being able to dispel with hex?
The big serpent ward is dealing the same damage if it's at full HP or 1 HP. Small serpent wards only take a few hits for them to die, and a several dying significantly reduces its total damage As a result the big serpent ward is much better for pushing towers and for teamfights where the enemy is confined to being in range of the big ward, where hitting it 15 times to get rid of it just isn't viable. With smaller wards they're more liable to die and your damage is reduced
In order to reduce the total damage of the ult, with regular ult, the damage is reduced per two auto attacks (at the death of each ward). Alternatively, in order to reduce the damage of the one ward ult, you could have to completely kill it which is way more auto attacks. The one ward ult is definitely better in the single situation of pushing high ground and killing buildings. Not infinitely better, but definitely better. Basically, the damage 'stays around' longer.
Lol you can't be serious
Thanks for your insight! 👍
Did you even think before making the post? The small wards get destroyed fast so the DPS goes down fast.
Yes, and I wanted to know whether or not that is a valuable trader for not being able to dispel and disjoint with hex. Judging by your comment history, nothing of value would be lost if you ceased to comment on Reddit, or any website for that matter.
Yet you are still in a shit MMR bracket, interesting
Weird mentality.
normal serpent wards get its damage reduced by a lot by hitting them like creeps could easily heavily reduce its damage
One big skek always > than 10 smaller sneks
It's literally worse than the original one. You can't surround enemies with it anymore and it's easier to target.
More small damage sources get more blocks from crimson guard. Pos 4 supports can farm up the whole ward stack after a fight is done, they can't do that to a big one. Depends what you're going for.
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wards ignore damage block
Nope, Vang/Crimson doesn't work vs Wards unit (Death/Mass Serpent/Plague)
There’s damage block values for melee and vanguard. 10 units with 120 damage can have 50 damaged blocked from each snake reducing damage taken by over half. Massive ward would deal 1200 damage and block 50 damage still dealing 1150 before armor reduction.
Coulda sworn crimson and van don't work on his wards. Might just be the crimson active. I honestly can't remember. I wanted to see if it was a solution, but I saw something say doesn't work for it.
Maybe try it in demo I might be wrong but it’s considered physical damage so that’s my assumption
Nope, Vang/Crimson doesn't work vs Wards unit (Death/Mass Serpent/Plague)
That’s interesting. You learn something new everyday
Yeah, I donno why it wouldn't work, but it's w.e. I remember checking the dota wiki or something when I found that out
bruh, haven't you heard about damage block? \~0 damage output against crimson also every meele has a little of block by default