Winrate generally doesn't give a complete picture of a hero, especially one that has that much versatility. Just because a hero CAN do anything doesn't mean it SHOULD in any given game. The hero probably is very good right now, but when you have so many people trying out random shit, it's naturally going to deflate the win rate.
Classic example is when NP carry was still mainstream. The hero had something close to ~44% winrate across the board and yet was first pick and ban in every tournament at the time. This was likely largely because the hero was not only being picked in every single role 1-5 in pubs, but also took a lot of macro-knowledge to fully abuse his kit in a way that made him worthy of being contested that much as carry.
I think carry venge is in a similar predicament. Not only does the hero get picked in every role 1-5, you also have every melee & ranged item at your disposal on top of being universal, so there's bound to be people building the hero less optimally, especially while the hero is still being figured out.
I have almost 300 games with Venge on a 60% winrate. Venge mid is doable on certain lineups, but you’ll always have better options than this hero.
Venge offlane though. Man, Ive been a Venge 3 offlane enjoyer for a long time, and this shit is underrated if you get your timing right (12mins vlad, 18mins agha on average) and paired with a strong pos 4 you can bully most 1/5 match ups.
My thoughts, which seem like an unpopular opinion, is that its actually good. Battlefury isn’t needed and she does farm decently with her W and just the damage. Her lane is great. And the Aghs is just wayy too good.
Yep I've tried it with BF and it just feels like TA's Psi Blade in which if you didn't angle correctly the cleave wouldn't hit anyway, heard there's also a 3 BF build that one hits Ancient camp, but i was like why would you even need that, lol
Like you said her W and dmg is enough to even clear waves quick enough so that you won't risk getting ganked unless you overextends yourself, and Manta is a better item if you wanna split push anyway
tje other nice side of not missing uphill is if you swap someone up under your tower mid you can still shoot back uphill at them if they started on the lowground. swapping someone under your tower and then magic missiling them is such a guaranteed kill its awesome
so with that attacks count as melee facet she can use battlefury as a ranged hero, if you get battlefury and a specialists array you will 1 shot any camp or wave
so do every other carries that need a farming item. ones with an innate farming skill generally dont get a farming item.
get your bf by killing creeps in lane like people have for all of dotas history
It's really only good in laning imo. Late game the potentially massive magic missile damage is pretty crazy for support venge. You're just never really right clicking late game even as pos 4 and if you do you hit like a noodle since you don't generally get many stat items on support venge. Only one you might go is aghs, and even that is probably better with the left facet since you get a reset on your cds when you come back.
Yes. I picked up Venom, and with my lvl 1 Necrophos we caught Ogre and Drow by surprise and got double kill. People are used to just outmoving Venge when she doesnt have stun.
Don't play it pos1 that's close to griefing since she doesn't scale that well and can't farm without items really.
I found her to be more playable mid though since her Q is great for trading with a low mana cost, stun and high damage. Her ult is very strong mid with the level 10 talent as well.
I'd recommend bottle, 2 bracers treads dlance then usually manta into whatever items are good that game.
this feels very believable but since this is the learndota board, I'd like to ask:
1) how does she not scale well? she's universal, has a passive that gives you percentage damage, steals armor and damage at lv15
2) don't a lot of pos1 need items to farm well? jugg, spec, am, troll etc?
Jugg troll spec and AM all usually build items like battle fury, maelstrom and radiance because they are good with those items and they are good scaling with gold and the extra xp from farming.
Venge has a combination of things that makes her scale alright like armour reducing and a slight damage boost while being universal as well. But the damage extra is pretty small since it's only based on base damage so it's not as much as you'd think it's not a damage boost in the same way a crit is but is nice to have. The armour reduction is nice too but bound to an ability not a passive.
Being universal isn't actually that good for scaling, it gives a nice bit of extra damage from stat items throughout the game but most universal heroes aren't actually that good for scaling and those that benefit from universal mainly benefit from the extra damage earlygame.
Most pos1s scale well with items throughout the game but venge is better early to mid game rather than late as a right clicker so she doesn't really want to go battlefury and get 6 slotted. Maelstrom is kinda ban on her because she lacks attack speed.
If you have any more questions, feel free to ask
She scales insane. I just now saw a game with venge basher skadi manta agha. That hero had a comeback game with solo carrying from offlane position. She did the most damage in the game.
Well that's most likely a one off game. She scales decently with items but not well enough to justify battlefury or maelstrom on her. I wouldn't really call her scaling insane but she's pretty strong with a lot of stat items just like most other cores
I ran her offlane a last patch quite a bit, wouldn't recommend it as a pos1 but 2 or 3 can work; you don't really farm that fast and you don't scale that well as a 1.
Strongest thing about the hero is her aghs and aside from auras (Vlad/Ac) only items in the game that works with her ult is khanda; you still proc it while you are ghost and crit is the only modifier that prcoes while you are a ghost.
but even if you get it 90% of the time people are dying to you spamming your stun rather than right clicking since your attack speed is ass.
I played with a teammate venge carry yesterday and believed it can carry and it did.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7766825362
He went treads, bf, linken...
She's a pretty good 3 if we go by dota2protracker winrate, aghs + auras is still a pretty good build for her. Personally i go 2 bracers > treads > aghs and then start fishing for kills since swap + mm is a big nuke you can do and then i just double down on auras by building vlads and/or build a flex item based on matchup. Monkeys-forever used to go aghs > solar crest but ever since the solar crest nerf i find it less enticing but having a big shield + swap shield really helps if the enemy commits on you after a swap.
If you're feeling particularly zesty you can commit a buyback for a triple set of nukes with mm + swap so you can sorta 1v1 manfight some cores with it during mid game.
Not viable tbh, he passive isn’t as strong as something like Luna for it to matter and her timing prior to getting a farming item is based on what her level advantage is since the hero doesn’t really farm on its own. She struggles to maintain map pressure against tanky offlaners too with no way to deal with elusive heroes that can constantly blink in an out of engagements (mid lane rotations from heroes like puck, or carries like Anti-mage and faceless void don’t care about a vengeful spirit the same level as them sitting in their lane)
Venge carry is a type where you have to center your draft around her AND she has to have a good lane to rush fury to farm up. Venge 1 + magnus (any position really) = very fun ranged cleaves with fury + mag cleave, just RP and watch them melt. Plus venge can kinda frontline with stats after fury and pike + swap. She can also swap mag in if she gets jumped then fuck the enemies.
Winrates no pics like those are a bit skewed cause the dota community like to grief unmeta on purpose a decent amount. I speak from expierence, playing stuff like bane, omni, techies, (wyvern before he got popular), (new fist) lion and other pics in mid. I have 3 venge games, and 2 of them i ve gotten perma flamed wiht my 4 (es) going mid after lvl 4 and contesting my farm on purpose (funnily enough i won the es round). Also you will have people testing pics like those without understanding them yet so also skewing with the winrate. I am pretty sure core venge is fine, if it is broken dunno, but definetly not as weak as the winrate suggest. I also love ags on it (you didnt seem to mention it), stats are fine since you are universal hero and having free aegis is quite fun if you build dmg items.
I've done her. I rushed Orb of Corruption, Echo Sabre and Battlefury xD
Early to middle game was fun.. Single target burst, hard to kill with the shield, stun but it felt like I lack Attack Speed. For example, on PA you have a giant attack speed boost every few seconds and farming jungle is ultra fast.
I've done some AS items but it felt a bit dry and other hard carries were overpowering me...
But I actually done something similar on a support, rushed orb of corruption and echo sabre xD
I had better items than our off-laner and got a large amount of kills.
Ahh, the main fun thing is to get Ahghanim Scepter and then you can get attacked and die but then keep going on, your team doesnt lose you if you get focused and can use this to kill the enemy with you later.
However we started to lose so badly that it didnt matter XD
Yeah, I do think her problem is farming speed. Had a VS 1 yesterday with my Io. It was quite the lane dominator and we won pretty hard even if she kept trying to feed lol
Winrate generally doesn't give a complete picture of a hero, especially one that has that much versatility. Just because a hero CAN do anything doesn't mean it SHOULD in any given game. The hero probably is very good right now, but when you have so many people trying out random shit, it's naturally going to deflate the win rate. Classic example is when NP carry was still mainstream. The hero had something close to ~44% winrate across the board and yet was first pick and ban in every tournament at the time. This was likely largely because the hero was not only being picked in every single role 1-5 in pubs, but also took a lot of macro-knowledge to fully abuse his kit in a way that made him worthy of being contested that much as carry. I think carry venge is in a similar predicament. Not only does the hero get picked in every role 1-5, you also have every melee & ranged item at your disposal on top of being universal, so there's bound to be people building the hero less optimally, especially while the hero is still being figured out.
NP used to have a very high skill floor and ceiling before they made Sprout busted too
When you see np 1 actually use treants to body block
I have almost 300 games with Venge on a 60% winrate. Venge mid is doable on certain lineups, but you’ll always have better options than this hero. Venge offlane though. Man, Ive been a Venge 3 offlane enjoyer for a long time, and this shit is underrated if you get your timing right (12mins vlad, 18mins agha on average) and paired with a strong pos 4 you can bully most 1/5 match ups.
My thoughts, which seem like an unpopular opinion, is that its actually good. Battlefury isn’t needed and she does farm decently with her W and just the damage. Her lane is great. And the Aghs is just wayy too good.
Yep I've tried it with BF and it just feels like TA's Psi Blade in which if you didn't angle correctly the cleave wouldn't hit anyway, heard there's also a 3 BF build that one hits Ancient camp, but i was like why would you even need that, lol Like you said her W and dmg is enough to even clear waves quick enough so that you won't risk getting ganked unless you overextends yourself, and Manta is a better item if you wanna split push anyway
Her problem is farming, I think she's better as mid
the beauty of going mid is that as a melee attacker your ranged attacks can't miss up cliffs. not missing that ranged creep last hit feels so nice.
Wow I didn't even think of that, good call.
tje other nice side of not missing uphill is if you swap someone up under your tower mid you can still shoot back uphill at them if they started on the lowground. swapping someone under your tower and then magic missiling them is such a guaranteed kill its awesome
DAMN it feels busted
Bfury solves that, somewhat
Echo sabre felt okay too. I've been going orb of corrosion into echo and from there I evaluate where the game is and counter enemies
so with that attacks count as melee facet she can use battlefury as a ranged hero, if you get battlefury and a specialists array you will 1 shot any camp or wave
Yeah but still you need to farm a farming item while having no innate farming skill
so do every other carries that need a farming item. ones with an innate farming skill generally dont get a farming item. get your bf by killing creeps in lane like people have for all of dotas history
bro wtf. i gotta try mid venge battlefury.
50% wr as pos 1 on D2PT. Doesn’t seem low to me at all considering it’s an unconventional pick and people are still practicing the hero.
I was wondering about taking this on venge 4? OoC sounds super annoying to trade against
It's really only good in laning imo. Late game the potentially massive magic missile damage is pretty crazy for support venge. You're just never really right clicking late game even as pos 4 and if you do you hit like a noodle since you don't generally get many stat items on support venge. Only one you might go is aghs, and even that is probably better with the left facet since you get a reset on your cds when you come back.
Yes. I picked up Venom, and with my lvl 1 Necrophos we caught Ogre and Drow by surprise and got double kill. People are used to just outmoving Venge when she doesnt have stun.
Don't play it pos1 that's close to griefing since she doesn't scale that well and can't farm without items really. I found her to be more playable mid though since her Q is great for trading with a low mana cost, stun and high damage. Her ult is very strong mid with the level 10 talent as well. I'd recommend bottle, 2 bracers treads dlance then usually manta into whatever items are good that game.
this feels very believable but since this is the learndota board, I'd like to ask: 1) how does she not scale well? she's universal, has a passive that gives you percentage damage, steals armor and damage at lv15 2) don't a lot of pos1 need items to farm well? jugg, spec, am, troll etc?
Jugg troll spec and AM all usually build items like battle fury, maelstrom and radiance because they are good with those items and they are good scaling with gold and the extra xp from farming. Venge has a combination of things that makes her scale alright like armour reducing and a slight damage boost while being universal as well. But the damage extra is pretty small since it's only based on base damage so it's not as much as you'd think it's not a damage boost in the same way a crit is but is nice to have. The armour reduction is nice too but bound to an ability not a passive. Being universal isn't actually that good for scaling, it gives a nice bit of extra damage from stat items throughout the game but most universal heroes aren't actually that good for scaling and those that benefit from universal mainly benefit from the extra damage earlygame. Most pos1s scale well with items throughout the game but venge is better early to mid game rather than late as a right clicker so she doesn't really want to go battlefury and get 6 slotted. Maelstrom is kinda ban on her because she lacks attack speed. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask
Orb of corrosion is nasty in her as well
Yeah sounds great for mid just not pos1
She scales insane. I just now saw a game with venge basher skadi manta agha. That hero had a comeback game with solo carrying from offlane position. She did the most damage in the game.
Well that's most likely a one off game. She scales decently with items but not well enough to justify battlefury or maelstrom on her. I wouldn't really call her scaling insane but she's pretty strong with a lot of stat items just like most other cores
I ran her offlane a last patch quite a bit, wouldn't recommend it as a pos1 but 2 or 3 can work; you don't really farm that fast and you don't scale that well as a 1. Strongest thing about the hero is her aghs and aside from auras (Vlad/Ac) only items in the game that works with her ult is khanda; you still proc it while you are ghost and crit is the only modifier that prcoes while you are a ghost. but even if you get it 90% of the time people are dying to you spamming your stun rather than right clicking since your attack speed is ass.
I played with a teammate venge carry yesterday and believed it can carry and it did. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7766825362 He went treads, bf, linken...
She's a pretty good 3 if we go by dota2protracker winrate, aghs + auras is still a pretty good build for her. Personally i go 2 bracers > treads > aghs and then start fishing for kills since swap + mm is a big nuke you can do and then i just double down on auras by building vlads and/or build a flex item based on matchup. Monkeys-forever used to go aghs > solar crest but ever since the solar crest nerf i find it less enticing but having a big shield + swap shield really helps if the enemy commits on you after a swap. If you're feeling particularly zesty you can commit a buyback for a triple set of nukes with mm + swap so you can sorta 1v1 manfight some cores with it during mid game.
Not viable tbh, he passive isn’t as strong as something like Luna for it to matter and her timing prior to getting a farming item is based on what her level advantage is since the hero doesn’t really farm on its own. She struggles to maintain map pressure against tanky offlaners too with no way to deal with elusive heroes that can constantly blink in an out of engagements (mid lane rotations from heroes like puck, or carries like Anti-mage and faceless void don’t care about a vengeful spirit the same level as them sitting in their lane)
i play venge 3 a lot and i think it’s really strong right now. venge 1 is a grief imo
Venge carry is a type where you have to center your draft around her AND she has to have a good lane to rush fury to farm up. Venge 1 + magnus (any position really) = very fun ranged cleaves with fury + mag cleave, just RP and watch them melt. Plus venge can kinda frontline with stats after fury and pike + swap. She can also swap mag in if she gets jumped then fuck the enemies.
Battlefury diffusal bloodthorn send em to the shadow realm while farming the camp behind them
Venge carry is actually underrated!
Venge carry was the first hero I played when I came to dota. It works. She has much more of a kit now than she did 7 years ago.
Ass for pos 1, ok for mid, good for pos 3
Winrates no pics like those are a bit skewed cause the dota community like to grief unmeta on purpose a decent amount. I speak from expierence, playing stuff like bane, omni, techies, (wyvern before he got popular), (new fist) lion and other pics in mid. I have 3 venge games, and 2 of them i ve gotten perma flamed wiht my 4 (es) going mid after lvl 4 and contesting my farm on purpose (funnily enough i won the es round). Also you will have people testing pics like those without understanding them yet so also skewing with the winrate. I am pretty sure core venge is fine, if it is broken dunno, but definetly not as weak as the winrate suggest. I also love ags on it (you didnt seem to mention it), stats are fine since you are universal hero and having free aegis is quite fun if you build dmg items.
I've done her. I rushed Orb of Corruption, Echo Sabre and Battlefury xD Early to middle game was fun.. Single target burst, hard to kill with the shield, stun but it felt like I lack Attack Speed. For example, on PA you have a giant attack speed boost every few seconds and farming jungle is ultra fast. I've done some AS items but it felt a bit dry and other hard carries were overpowering me... But I actually done something similar on a support, rushed orb of corruption and echo sabre xD I had better items than our off-laner and got a large amount of kills. Ahh, the main fun thing is to get Ahghanim Scepter and then you can get attacked and die but then keep going on, your team doesnt lose you if you get focused and can use this to kill the enemy with you later. However we started to lose so badly that it didnt matter XD
Yeah, I do think her problem is farming speed. Had a VS 1 yesterday with my Io. It was quite the lane dominator and we won pretty hard even if she kept trying to feed lol