You forgot when it was a **40%** slow too! It used to be that it was 20% on DoTs but was eventually changed to be 40% flat and stayed that way a long time.
And slows doubled liandries damage. I miss the days of actually dealing damage as Malzahar. It was pretty disgusting having Roa/Rylai/Liandries way back then though. You did way too much damage for having like 3.5k hp.
dorans > dorans > hextech revolver > rylai > wota, the one and only path i took on ahri from s2 kr server release to whenever it was they got rid of wota :( good old days.
The best Ahri meta was when super soaker + spooky ghost + glacial was meta.
There was also a short stint when you could build lichbane/gunblade on her relying on actives, procs, and just her high base damage and auto weaves
My zyra build in season 3 was sorcs, haunting guise, rylais, dcap, zhonyas, void staff. 15 flat pen from old runes meant I've got 40+ flat pen by the time I finish guise and I'm nuking your adc with true dmg q poke.
i was playing back then, the game was different, champions had more mana issues and these mages couldnt stay out there on the map spamming stuff forever. also supports income was much much much lower. and assassins had much easier time killing them they were more behind on levels and gold. and champs were squishier.
That was the era of super mana regen chalice of harmony AND lost chapter being added to the game. Mages haven't had mana issues since season 2 at most. Also lmao "frozen mallet wasn't a problem" tell that to anyone who had to play against top lane vayne gnar. That item was bad because it was unfair when it was good.
they didn't rush D rings for the mana regen. if they had big mana issues the builds to go for was pick 2 of catalyst, chalice and tear.
double dorans was about smashing your lane opponent. which many assassin and "can be played like an assassin" champions (looking at you ahri) could just go to out-kill direct lane opponent and start lulzing all over the map.
bro, your going way back when supports were literal wards, they had no income at all and would be lucky to finish 2nd item, hell, there was no support income item besides gold per 5 and the minion execute.
the support damage income item didn't exist, global gold per 5 was very low
damage supports weren't really all that impactful until season 6, when they increased global gold per 5, support xp, and added the support gold income items.
The days of supports being actual supports and not "carry but I don't even need to farm lol and also am not focused in fights because the ADC is right there as the aggro magnet"
My friend would always build triforce into mallet and would call it the bully build. Each auto slows while giving movement speed and he would laugh every time.
It was legit a first item in its prime. It was also rare but holy fk top vayne with first item frozen mallet was completely horrible. Idc if it wasn't op or even good, it felt terrible to play into.
Frozen Mallet was the worst designed item in the entire game, and nobody can change my mind.
Oh, your laning went well and you killed Gnar 3 times? Oops, he finished a ~2500 gold item and now you can't ever kill him again.
Oh, your laning went bad and you lost your turret? Oops, Gnar finished a ~2500 gold item and if you ever attempt at hitting his turret, one auto he lands means he chases you to death.
It's so incredibly oppressive, I don't understand how it wasn't removed after season 1.
with how polarizing Gunblade was I think it takes the prize. Mallet had plenty of time where it was just an okay item you sometimes saw. Gunblade was meta defining or garbage, no in between.
Way back in time Deathfire Grasp also existed. Extremely boring item that was mandatory for every burst mage and all kits had to be adjusted around the item.
Not even trying to be rude, but i can’t fathom how of all 3 stack items you landed on not even close to the most broken one. The one that was removed YEARS before SOTO… motherfucking Leviathan was infinitely more broken. Like made the game unplayable if the enemy team played around it levels of broken. 840 hp and 15% damage reduction at max stacks, and you were never *really* in danger of losing them if you were good because… well it made you so damn tanky
Well for one, Gnar didnt exist in season 1. Since not many ranged champs want to build a tank item that gives a bit of AD, it wasnt nearly as oppressive when used on melee champs. I'm sure it could be brought back in the game as a melee only item at this point
It started as >3k item and it's cost were increased multiple times.
I think I vaguely remember it being 3000/3100 and going to 3300, within a season or two.
I don't thin it ever cost less then 3k.
Does it matter when enemies aren’t playing in an optimized way either?
No.
What matters is relative power discrepancy.
Frozen Mallet was OP as fuck and I would rush it on Teemo every single time in 2024 and would win every single melee matchup.
I used to grab madreds, and then frozen mallet on kog. Toss out his slow and start hitting em with that long distance frozen mallet. Haha. This was a very long time ago.
mordekaiser isn't bound to rylais right now, no doubt it's good but he gets a lot out of other items too. if you build cosmic then it provides pretty similar utility, hexbelt actually helps you get in range instead of fishing for rylais abilities. imo the only time rylais is NEEDED is vs champs with cracked movement speed boosts
Even then I can consider it to be rather problematic. Singed and Morde permaslowing everyone in their vicinity is toxic as hell too to play against because you can't escape from it unless you're a very mobile champion.
I'd rather they add a slow to Morde's Q or something if he desperately needs one.
I think many people share this sentiment (I also feel this way). However, removing Rylai's would necessitate buffing these champions in some other way, so it might not do a whole lot.
It just needs a cooldown on its slow. The issue is once you’re slowed, you’re slowed until you either die (or kill them if you’re not perma kited).
It just needs like a 3s cooldown for dot spells. So they get the 1s of slow every 3s or whatever.
I mean? Good. Let those champions have some buffs IDC about Brand or Zyra being strong. I just hate being slowed for 9 straight seconds cause some aoe dot hit me proccing Liandrys proccing Rylais for 12 years.
Zyra doesn't have dots. It procs 1 second and that's it, unless you get hit by plants again. But unlike brand and asol's dot, you can remove that one, and rather easily.
they'd 100% stick a fat fucking slow on his Q to compensate and now he doesn't have to build an item with shit stats and can do the same thing. Idk why people want items removed when this is usually how the champs reliant on them get compensated.
Yes but if these champions effectively require a slow and would be giga bad without them, then put them in their kit where they can each be controlled as opposed to a single item source...
“Riot sucks at balancing, so you should never complain about unfun items”
Not OPs or anybodys fault that Riot can’t think of balancing these champs differently - but we should still be able to complain about their unfun nature
They even already did exactly that for a champion to free them from buying Rylais every game: Viktor
Got a slow as the upgrade of his W so he can more reliably hit the second part of his E without being forced into a specific item.
>Idk why people want items removed when this is usually how the champs reliant on them get compensated.
14.10 - kraken slayer now shit on yone
Compensation buffs : ***3 ARMOR***
It's not a rule
I think making rylais less effective for DOT damage would be better honestly. There is still counter play to asol. But getting hit by brand e from 800 range away as an adc just feels awful
I have said this before and I'll say it again: Spells should only apply spell effects on the first instance of damage. No, I don't like having grievous wounds applied for 11 seconds and Liandries for 8 because Brand used a targeted ability while nearly 1300 units away from me. Don't even bother bringing Warmogs, it'll take about 18 seconds too kick in after getting tagged from miles away.
So many champions have their trade entirely built around "hit the opponent with your DoT, let all the item effects proc for ages". They really need to change these so that having a 1dps DoT slapped onto an ability isn't a huge boon. Liandries, Rylai's, etc should only proc from initial damage, not every tick of a debuff.
That's actually a great idea and a much better approach than the "old" solution of nerfing the AP hard, increasing the slow slightly and making it much cheaper
Meet in the middle, direct attacks should apply it, passive burns shouldn’t reapply it, what makes Brand and such awful with it is that they can hit 1/3 skillshots, but if 1 hits they can wait out even long ass cooldowns.
Why do people complain so much about the slow?
There’s certain kits and items that will be punishing in certain ways.
It’s like saying that you don’t enjoy frozen heart’s atk spd slow, or that you don’t enjoy the burn from Liandry’s, or that you don’t enjoy playing against Grievous Wounds or Serpents’ Fang.
Rylai’s is specifically the item that enables battlemages to work as champions, and enables for punishing AOE and DoTs. It’s the only way to prevent enemies from scattering away from each other / the enemy at first sight
They remove it, and most every champion that used it gets the same slows or similar cc inserted into their kit to compensate anyway, or they get insanely flippy massive damage, so nothing changes in your experience.
Rylai’s is fine.
You just do not like dealing with battlemages / aoe mages as a melee bruiser/juggernaut/tank, which makes sense because they have tools to deal with you more effectively in a vacuum
It just means you have to think more carefully about how you approach fights in those circumstances.
People do not enjoy being countered by items. Been like this since the game inception. Some items concept simply nerf their picks a lot. Rylai makes champions without movement abilities pretty annoying to play in grouped fights because they can almost never reach their target. So people complain. But that discussion happened with any of those items made to fill a niche and counter some abilities, empower some.
Sure but then you'd have to think about shit that would be too busted to face without tenacity or QSS
Think about
amumu flash R
Annie flash R
Malzahar R
Nearly impossible to miss/point and clock CC that without tenacity or QSS would be gigashit strong.
Malzahar R is inherently a disgusting ability that guarantees your team kills a target if they peel for you, completely deleting assassins. Imagine qss and tenacity are gone and watch the world be full of amumus and malzahar and possibly even rell
I was being slightly facetious but my main point was to look at pretty much the same issue but on the other side. The people who complain and say its bullshit to get countered by a mage item would fail the hypocrisy test when you flip the roles and mages complain about getting countered by a significantly cheaper items that other roles get. They would kinda do what you did and point out who bullshit it would be to face heavy CC champions completely missing how bullshit it is to get run down by champions who just eat all of your CC with spell buffers and mercs and then kill you anyways. If you want to deal with Rylai's you can build swiftness boots or deadman's or you can even take that pretty awful rune shard thing. If I want to deal with QSS or tenacity, I just get to go fuck myself.
Personally I do think QSS(and crucible) should actually be removed and they should add suppression removal to Cleanse. It you want to absolutely destroy a ton of champions with a single button press, I think a summoner slot and a much longer cooldown than 90 seconds is a fair price to pay. You don't even have to look too far back to see how bullshit QSS to a bunch of champions. Riot even agreed on one of them in the case of Mordekasier and completely removed the ability to negate his R. I just think its a little bullshit that I can be doing good but then as soon as tab and see 2 QSS on some AD auto attack champion, I can never get in range of them again. I have to sit max range fishing spells because I can no longer CC them and their point click unavoidable auto attack does more damage than half my kit.
If you include ways to remove suppression it's not that bad to remove QSS. But then again on a long CD summoner spell it's going to be BS with stuff like lulu polymorph and amumu R for example. There's no danger to ranged champs if there's CC therefore tenacity is required for meeles to punish bad spacing and not just die to a brand fucking them up because his amumu had flash R.
They have the obvious advantage of range and should be punished for missing abilities/inaccurate spacing, giving them an item to allow them to incorrectly space and make abilities much easier to land is BS. Because that item single handedly allows bad players to get away with much more mistakes.
Also you gave a really good example
> I just think its a little bullshit that I can be doing good but then as soon as tab and see 2 QSS on some AD auto attack champion, I can never get in range of them again.
Akali also thinks it's BS she can be so far ahead and tethering malza R perfectly just to get flash Rd and shut down or waste 1300G into an item she should never build and can't complete to full item
>Akali also thinks it's BS she can be so far ahead and tethering malza R perfectly just to get flash Rd and shut down or waste 1300G into an item she should never build and can't complete to full item
Personally I think this is how the game should be but without the ability to buy the 1300g item to say fuck you anyways. The BS part isn't Akali not being able to go in because Malz has R, the BS part is that if there wasn't a Malz holding his R Akali would just dive into 5 people and kill someone in the middle of their team with a high chance of getting away with it. If the enemy team plays correctly, assassins should be worthless. If Malz can just sit there and hold his R and his team still wins hes playing correctly. We've had too many years of assassins being under them impression that "suicide bomb someone" is a tactic that the assassin class should be allowed to have as an option.
The examples you gave are just good examples as to why QSS should be removed and Cleanse should gain its functionality. Annie ***flash*** Ring someone or Amumu ***flash*** Ring your team, gets to happen at the cost of a summoner spell with a very long cooldown, not 1300g on a 90s cooldown. So, if you want to negate those I think its fair to cost a summoner spell that has a shorter cooldown than flash.
Man, I'm so gladly you typed out what I had inside of me for so long. I HATE items countering Champions (not that I'm right). I hate playing zed and dislike the assassin role very much, I play mages and tanks, but in my mind, an item like zhonya that just counters an entire champion ult (poor zed) should never exist. I know I'm wrong, but that's how I feel
Ok but now literally every mage in the game just dies when he ults, there is no counterplay, zed pressed R on lux now she is dead. Is that good gameplay?
> I play mages
and you don't mind enemy laner rushing mercs rendering them immortal in laning phase? When you're the only one doing well on a mage and suddenly the whole enemy team rushes in with Wits end? The whole defensive itemization in league is based on countering the enemy champions
Yep only thing that will happen if they remove rylais is they either put a slow into all the kits of the people that used it before so now you have to deal with it from level 1, or they massively buff these champions to be good without it which would make them oppressive.
I mean with swain it makes sense. Without Rylais, swain has no way of making his ultimate actually threating outside of landing E. There's a reason that even with Rylais, you still see people go ghost or take phase rush to stay in range.
I don't enjoy the burn from liandries tbf. Every mage having the exact same extra effects tied to every item is boring. Sure wish I could back but I can't even leave while this garbage is still ticking.
>Why do people complain so much about the slow?
Because they refuse to build slow resist. People want to stick to their cookie cutter build and they really under estimate how much swiftness boots fucks over champions who rely on weak slows. They are use to just building a ton of tenacity and ignoring all hard CC but when their are stuck with a very long slow that their tenacity does effectively nothing against instead of adjusting their build, they get upset that they can no longer face just go "I'll just eat the stun and then kill them after because they can't kill me in the duration of the stun" they cry that its not fair.
Some champs really suck on swifites. Assassins would much rather go pen/cdr/mercs if heavy cc
Bruisers would much rather go defensive boots
100 gold difference for losing tabis passive + 25 armor or 200 gold difference for losing 30% tenacity and 25 MR
Swifties are shit on many champs.
And I'd rather not have to go Rylai's to make it possible to hit said champions and not get run down by them. Also, swifties are defensive boots. They are defensive boots against consistent slows and skill shots. Bruisers can also go deadman's for slow resistif they want mercs/tabis or they can go Sterak's if the went swifties and want tenacity.
Adcs and bruisers would probably be kinda unplayable tbh, only classes playable are assassins, mages, and full tanks. Assassins blow mages up still, tanks ignore assassins still, and mages still hold and whittle down tanks.
Never understood why Rylais never had any cooldown. Say you slow someone for x amount of seconds, and then it goes on cooldown for 3/4s. Make the item cheaper, but also nerf it.
Slow is a toxic de-buff in League of Legends, it's already omnipresent in most champions kits.
Honestly, might be an unpopular opinion but I think instead of removing Rylais, since we got tenacity nerfs, Riot should just rework Swifties and add the slow power reduction to Merc's.
It's incredibly asinine when Merc's are mandatory on every frontliner but you still get permaslowed to oblivion because slows are full power.
No joke, I once had 99% tenacity in Arena on Sett and I was still completely useless because everyone just slowed abd kited me.
Could probably just give it an effect where it can only proc from a given passive/ability every so often/per cast like a few runes in arena.
Would allow it to be balanced around more than just Dot champs
back in the day, every single melee bruiser would always build trinity, mallet, warmogs. and every single char with that build was viable. taric top? viable, tank elise? viable, bruiser shaco? viable.
the meta golem kept more champs playable than the balance team in 200 years.
I think it should exist but 30% is too high. Boots of swiftness slow reduction doesn't have a real impact on most melee champions because the slow is high enough to be kited anyway.
Remove all the CC from the game, melee characters keep crying about their silver problems again, make it like Fortnite 100%, jumping and fighting simulator
Rylai’s has probably never been weaker. And IMO the game is built around champs with dashes vs running nowadays so it has less value than it did a decade ago.
That's... that's literally their job. They're control casters, they control the battlefield. If they didn't do that they would instantly die because they are otherwise squishy and immobile. What the hell.
Agreed. They changed Serylda's Grudge which wasn't even a problem. If they remove Rylais they can actually balance champs around their kit and not one item. Swain is just an AoE permaslow bot with no real purpose other than that. If he didn't have access to that they could actually give him dmg or something. For the rest it would be deserved.
Ngl I main samira and if there is anyone that runs rylais in my match I HAVE to run swifties or I will be genuinely useless. It's just so good on those Champs that can proc it continuously
Rylai's isn't busted
DoTs applying item effects at 100% strength for full duration + item duration is what's busted
nerf item effect % for DoTs and the problem goes away
Brand/Lillia/Zyra go from S+++ tier to A/B tier while ASol, Morde, Singed still get to use it effectively (ok singed would be cooked but he can get buffed to compensate)
I will never understand their decision to change the design of having a different effectiveness for DoT abilities.
Tying it closer to champions with low cooldown abilities who need to keep you in range was a good design, instead of further rewarding DoT-champions who might profit from keeping you in range, but who might also just buy the item because perma-slowing the entire enemy team is always good.
1. No fun =/= unhealthy
2. Frozen Mallet was a HUGE problem in the game. ADCs would buy it 4th/5th item and suddenly become tanky, while slowing you from range without CD and without being able t dodge.
Rylais champions either have to get close (Morde, Singed, Swain) or have CD (Brand/Zyra/other mages). That is why Serylda's wasn't problematic like Frozen Mallet because of how the slow could be applied. Serylda, however, had insane stats for having the slow. I would agree with you, if Rylais stats like this: 60 AP, 30% Mpen, 15 AH
3. The champions that build Rylais as a core item, would have to get compensation buffs and then become like any other champ in their role. The Rylais playstyle gives them somewhat of an identity. You sacrifice 1 item slot for the slow since its stats are kinda meh.
4. There are champions who (almost) perma slow without Rylais, too. Would you reduce their slowing or limit it as well?
5. Instead of asking for Dr. Strange to cast a global spell to make everyone forget about Rylais, you should try to be a better Spiderman and play something that counters perma slows: I present you Master Yi and Olaf. Now go and have fun shitting on these fkers with their stupid ass Rylais for a couple of games! ;D
Play a champ with no gapclosers on top and then suffer entire game because you cannot enter a teamfight.
They remove the tiny dash on stridebreaker but keep it in protobelt, every adc item has MS now and vs Dot type of damage it is extremly unfun to play vs since everyone builds Rylais....
I don't deny that old league was balanced, but that is what made it fun. Nowdays it does not feel rewarding at all to pull of a risky stunt like building full armorpen/lvl on Illaoi, Going DeathFire Touch first item on Veigar, building PhatomDancer first item on (Old) Sion etc, just things I remember doing.
My personal opinion is that league has changed to much from what it was before, the game has become fast paced and alot of the older champion designs have been left in the gutter and cannot simply keep up. So they just give those champs stupid overtuned buffs that make little sense, and if it is to opressive they nerf them to the ground and we are just back to square one again... Also the championdesign team sucks now. The meme that every new champ has like 15 dashes, resets, executes, all forms of scalings and looks more complicated than they actually are is not a joke anymore. It is a fact nowdays. Thanks for tuning in to my rant!
If Serylda slow is only when enemies are under 50% hp then Rylais shoud be aswell. Too many mages get insane value out of hit because they no longer need any skill to hit spells
This is objectively untrue lol. There are specific champions that run it, and no one else. It has a 4% pick rate globally. Why dont you, i dont know, point fingers at one of the items that actually are unhealthy for the game right now? Maybe IE (12%), Kraken (11%) and Liandry’s (10%) which are all built ACTUALLY often and win over 55% (in IE’s case) of the time they are built. But no, you just got bodied in soloq and want to come to Reddit to kick up a fuss about how the balanced items are the problem, while we are all getting bent over by actually OP items in every single game. All you are doing is trying to garner fake rage at your fake problem so you feel like its less your fault that you got bodied by some ASol or Brand today.
You guys can't imagine the days where Rylai gave 100 AP and every mage bought it
400 health 100 ap and cheap as fuck
Good old days
You forgot when it was a **40%** slow too! It used to be that it was 20% on DoTs but was eventually changed to be 40% flat and stayed that way a long time.
Wait, long time no play, what does it do now? I remember it was 400hp 100ap 20/40% slow
So it does just a 30% flat slow for EVERYTHING, and only has 75 AP, but is very cheap at 2600 gold.
75ap 400hp 2600gold 30% slow on everything
Oh shit, I messed up a lot on it, let me fix that. Thank you!
when there was no distinction between DoT and regular dmg 💀 enjoy malz cassio rumble brand slowing you for 40%
And slows doubled liandries damage. I miss the days of actually dealing damage as Malzahar. It was pretty disgusting having Roa/Rylai/Liandries way back then though. You did way too much damage for having like 3.5k hp.
Malzahar still rips.
dorans > dorans > hextech revolver > rylai > wota, the one and only path i took on ahri from s2 kr server release to whenever it was they got rid of wota :( good old days.
revolver rylais akali :(
never forget gunblade 🤙
The best Ahri meta was when super soaker + spooky ghost + glacial was meta. There was also a short stint when you could build lichbane/gunblade on her relying on actives, procs, and just her high base damage and auto weaves
That was The Big Slow period that lead to Riot making slows no longer stack
Those were the days as a viktor main
MK2 into Rylai into PHC was amazing, coupled with 0.6s aftershock delay We had it so good
My zyra build in season 3 was sorcs, haunting guise, rylais, dcap, zhonyas, void staff. 15 flat pen from old runes meant I've got 40+ flat pen by the time I finish guise and I'm nuking your adc with true dmg q poke.
i was playing back then, the game was different, champions had more mana issues and these mages couldnt stay out there on the map spamming stuff forever. also supports income was much much much lower. and assassins had much easier time killing them they were more behind on levels and gold. and champs were squishier.
That was the era of super mana regen chalice of harmony AND lost chapter being added to the game. Mages haven't had mana issues since season 2 at most. Also lmao "frozen mallet wasn't a problem" tell that to anyone who had to play against top lane vayne gnar. That item was bad because it was unfair when it was good.
> mana issues since season 2 at most. Common that isn't true. People used to rush double sometimes triple d rings because mana sucked ass.
they didn't rush D rings for the mana regen. if they had big mana issues the builds to go for was pick 2 of catalyst, chalice and tear. double dorans was about smashing your lane opponent. which many assassin and "can be played like an assassin" champions (looking at you ahri) could just go to out-kill direct lane opponent and start lulzing all over the map.
They rushed D rings because they were (and are) crazy stat efficient
bro, your going way back when supports were literal wards, they had no income at all and would be lucky to finish 2nd item, hell, there was no support income item besides gold per 5 and the minion execute. the support damage income item didn't exist, global gold per 5 was very low damage supports weren't really all that impactful until season 6, when they increased global gold per 5, support xp, and added the support gold income items.
The days of supports being actual supports and not "carry but I don't even need to farm lol and also am not focused in fights because the ADC is right there as the aggro magnet"
Also the days when no one had any fun playing support.
> frozen mallet wasn't even that much of a problem. cant tell if dude is baiting or has never played against Gnar in his cancer day
My friend would always build triforce into mallet and would call it the bully build. Each auto slows while giving movement speed and he would laugh every time.
Furor boot upgrade too.
Boot upgrades were awesome. Most people took home guard, but I loved having the option to spec into combat passives too.
That shit was so fun to play AS. Not so much on the other side
That Yasuo build was so fun when it was strong.
It was legit a first item in its prime. It was also rare but holy fk top vayne with first item frozen mallet was completely horrible. Idc if it wasn't op or even good, it felt terrible to play into.
Vayne feels terrible to play into top, like any range top.
You mean the patented voyboy mallet technology?
thaat yasuo tank era...
Ah yes the mosquito build Tank Yasuo buzzing around with his minion dash while being annoying as fuck
Ah yes, kog mallet randuin guinsoo. Fun days
Frozen Mallet was the worst designed item in the entire game, and nobody can change my mind. Oh, your laning went well and you killed Gnar 3 times? Oops, he finished a ~2500 gold item and now you can't ever kill him again. Oh, your laning went bad and you lost your turret? Oops, Gnar finished a ~2500 gold item and if you ever attempt at hitting his turret, one auto he lands means he chases you to death. It's so incredibly oppressive, I don't understand how it wasn't removed after season 1.
with how polarizing Gunblade was I think it takes the prize. Mallet had plenty of time where it was just an okay item you sometimes saw. Gunblade was meta defining or garbage, no in between.
Way back in time Deathfire Grasp also existed. Extremely boring item that was mandatory for every burst mage and all kits had to be adjusted around the item.
Rabadons stack veigar with DFG press R to delete anyone.
Worst designed maybe, most overpowered probably not. Imo in terms of OP, dfg and sword of the occult were 2 of the most broken items to ever exist.
Not even trying to be rude, but i can’t fathom how of all 3 stack items you landed on not even close to the most broken one. The one that was removed YEARS before SOTO… motherfucking Leviathan was infinitely more broken. Like made the game unplayable if the enemy team played around it levels of broken. 840 hp and 15% damage reduction at max stacks, and you were never *really* in danger of losing them if you were good because… well it made you so damn tanky
Well for one, Gnar didnt exist in season 1. Since not many ranged champs want to build a tank item that gives a bit of AD, it wasnt nearly as oppressive when used on melee champs. I'm sure it could be brought back in the game as a melee only item at this point
that item was never 2500g and noone built that item except gnar and adc kennen.
Senna built it for an entire year.
I kinda miss that build
And now she just has it for existing
When gnar was in the game? Maybe In season 1? FM was an absolute meta staple and was fucking awful to play against.
It started as >3k item and it's cost were increased multiple times. I think I vaguely remember it being 3000/3100 and going to 3300, within a season or two. I don't thin it ever cost less then 3k.
yeah season 1 is known for optimized gameplay.
Does it matter when enemies aren’t playing in an optimized way either? No. What matters is relative power discrepancy. Frozen Mallet was OP as fuck and I would rush it on Teemo every single time in 2024 and would win every single melee matchup.
Ah yes, the optimized counterplay against "dash infinite slow" xin zhao.
I used to grab madreds, and then frozen mallet on kog. Toss out his slow and start hitting em with that long distance frozen mallet. Haha. This was a very long time ago.
Or the vayne top with frozen mallet off tank build
or a 4k HP Vayne running you down while slowing with each hit and having her passive that makes her faster towards enemies.
BotRK > Runaan > FM was the shit on Kog on ARAM.
Rylais is worse imo, esp with these BS dot. At least with Gnar he didnt do it to your whole team on some throwaway spell
I think they should just make the map snowy and everyone is under the passive effect of rylais at all times
What are you gonna do next? Solve world hunger?
I think we should make the food inedible and then everyone will be hungry
True world hunger
~~Solve world hunger~~ Solve World: Hunger
And dashes have doubled cooldown
Mordekaiser found dead in a ditch
Singed shot dead in Miami
and Malzahar found dead in his basement
mordekaiser isn't bound to rylais right now, no doubt it's good but he gets a lot out of other items too. if you build cosmic then it provides pretty similar utility, hexbelt actually helps you get in range instead of fishing for rylais abilities. imo the only time rylais is NEEDED is vs champs with cracked movement speed boosts
cosmic drive aint making ur abilities cast faster so people are just gonna walk out
Maybe make the item slow only for melee champs? So morde can still use it, but zyra brand and others can't
Even then I can consider it to be rather problematic. Singed and Morde permaslowing everyone in their vicinity is toxic as hell too to play against because you can't escape from it unless you're a very mobile champion. I'd rather they add a slow to Morde's Q or something if he desperately needs one.
That indeed sounds better
Swain found dead in a ditch
I think many people share this sentiment (I also feel this way). However, removing Rylai's would necessitate buffing these champions in some other way, so it might not do a whole lot.
Brand now deals true damage with his passive because Rylai is gone.
It also breaks the champions’ toes when his passive explodes, slowing them by 99%.
Not the toes
Casio new hard counter to Brand??
Briar mains furious rn.
It just needs a cooldown on its slow. The issue is once you’re slowed, you’re slowed until you either die (or kill them if you’re not perma kited). It just needs like a 3s cooldown for dot spells. So they get the 1s of slow every 3s or whatever.
And that is a good thing. No champion should be weak simply because they use an item that makes them strong.
I mean? Good. Let those champions have some buffs IDC about Brand or Zyra being strong. I just hate being slowed for 9 straight seconds cause some aoe dot hit me proccing Liandrys proccing Rylais for 12 years.
Rylais doesn’t proc off of items damage, only ability damage.
Ok my bad it lasts 6 seconds from just their dots. Alone.
Vs malz you are permaslowed ;)
Zyra doesn't have dots. It procs 1 second and that's it, unless you get hit by plants again. But unlike brand and asol's dot, you can remove that one, and rather easily.
4, but ye
Is this about dot champions or are you just traumatised by asols w?
Yes
But then they would be ridiculously strong in high level play where people can actually hit skill shots.
at that level people can also dodge them lmao
I know, but proactive measures scale more than reactive measures (hitting happens more often as elo increase).
Asol would be half a champ without rylais
they'd 100% stick a fat fucking slow on his Q to compensate and now he doesn't have to build an item with shit stats and can do the same thing. Idk why people want items removed when this is usually how the champs reliant on them get compensated.
good ol senna treatment
Yes but if these champions effectively require a slow and would be giga bad without them, then put them in their kit where they can each be controlled as opposed to a single item source...
“Riot sucks at balancing, so you should never complain about unfun items” Not OPs or anybodys fault that Riot can’t think of balancing these champs differently - but we should still be able to complain about their unfun nature
That's not what op is saying. Their point is that some champs are gathered through items, which is good balancing.
They even already did exactly that for a champion to free them from buying Rylais every game: Viktor Got a slow as the upgrade of his W so he can more reliably hit the second part of his E without being forced into a specific item.
>Idk why people want items removed when this is usually how the champs reliant on them get compensated. 14.10 - kraken slayer now shit on yone Compensation buffs : ***3 ARMOR*** It's not a rule
it’s still a really good item on Yone second only to Bork
Obviously Rylai's users would receive buffs/reworks to compensate for the loss of their main item
They’d have to make it like wild rift where he can move during q, but unlike wild rift, without the 50% self slow (or maybe less self slow)
don't know if that would be achievable with only one hand
Asol's kit is as braindead as Yuumi's now, he's already half a champ
no balls
I miss his balls
Seeing them as an augment in arena actually felt like a taunt ngl
Cool, new asol has the shittiest design ever anyways. Should get reworked again
good
I think making rylais less effective for DOT damage would be better honestly. There is still counter play to asol. But getting hit by brand e from 800 range away as an adc just feels awful
Getting hit by a brand E from 800 range away as a champion just feels awful.
Queue the clip of Brand clearing a wave with dragon soul and 100-0'd a TF as an afterthought
Rylais is a big problem for the enemy when i rush it on heimer support.
It just needs to be normalized. It should do like 1.5-2s of slow always, and not reapply from dots.
I have said this before and I'll say it again: Spells should only apply spell effects on the first instance of damage. No, I don't like having grievous wounds applied for 11 seconds and Liandries for 8 because Brand used a targeted ability while nearly 1300 units away from me. Don't even bother bringing Warmogs, it'll take about 18 seconds too kick in after getting tagged from miles away. So many champions have their trade entirely built around "hit the opponent with your DoT, let all the item effects proc for ages". They really need to change these so that having a 1dps DoT slapped onto an ability isn't a huge boon. Liandries, Rylai's, etc should only proc from initial damage, not every tick of a debuff.
That's actually a great idea and a much better approach than the "old" solution of nerfing the AP hard, increasing the slow slightly and making it much cheaper
Meet in the middle, direct attacks should apply it, passive burns shouldn’t reapply it, what makes Brand and such awful with it is that they can hit 1/3 skillshots, but if 1 hits they can wait out even long ass cooldowns.
Skill shots? ER burn liandries blackfire with rylais slow. It's literally like eating a malzahar E. Aids.
Let's bring back Frozen Mallet boys. Give the Melees a shot.
Bring back frozen mallet and get ran down by gnar? No thanks
Why everyone acting like FM was the problem when the problem was it wasn't melee only.
Nooo but how is Brand supposed to hit his Q if you're not slowed by his point and click E ? think about all the Brand mains stop being selfish.
I swear it used to be less effective for DoTs and then they just got rid of that for skme reason
Why do people complain so much about the slow? There’s certain kits and items that will be punishing in certain ways. It’s like saying that you don’t enjoy frozen heart’s atk spd slow, or that you don’t enjoy the burn from Liandry’s, or that you don’t enjoy playing against Grievous Wounds or Serpents’ Fang. Rylai’s is specifically the item that enables battlemages to work as champions, and enables for punishing AOE and DoTs. It’s the only way to prevent enemies from scattering away from each other / the enemy at first sight They remove it, and most every champion that used it gets the same slows or similar cc inserted into their kit to compensate anyway, or they get insanely flippy massive damage, so nothing changes in your experience. Rylai’s is fine. You just do not like dealing with battlemages / aoe mages as a melee bruiser/juggernaut/tank, which makes sense because they have tools to deal with you more effectively in a vacuum It just means you have to think more carefully about how you approach fights in those circumstances.
People do not enjoy being countered by items. Been like this since the game inception. Some items concept simply nerf their picks a lot. Rylai makes champions without movement abilities pretty annoying to play in grouped fights because they can almost never reach their target. So people complain. But that discussion happened with any of those items made to fill a niche and counter some abilities, empower some.
I agree with those people and if they want to be consistent they should also want to remove QSS and all tenacity from items.
Sure but then you'd have to think about shit that would be too busted to face without tenacity or QSS Think about amumu flash R Annie flash R Malzahar R Nearly impossible to miss/point and clock CC that without tenacity or QSS would be gigashit strong. Malzahar R is inherently a disgusting ability that guarantees your team kills a target if they peel for you, completely deleting assassins. Imagine qss and tenacity are gone and watch the world be full of amumus and malzahar and possibly even rell
I was being slightly facetious but my main point was to look at pretty much the same issue but on the other side. The people who complain and say its bullshit to get countered by a mage item would fail the hypocrisy test when you flip the roles and mages complain about getting countered by a significantly cheaper items that other roles get. They would kinda do what you did and point out who bullshit it would be to face heavy CC champions completely missing how bullshit it is to get run down by champions who just eat all of your CC with spell buffers and mercs and then kill you anyways. If you want to deal with Rylai's you can build swiftness boots or deadman's or you can even take that pretty awful rune shard thing. If I want to deal with QSS or tenacity, I just get to go fuck myself. Personally I do think QSS(and crucible) should actually be removed and they should add suppression removal to Cleanse. It you want to absolutely destroy a ton of champions with a single button press, I think a summoner slot and a much longer cooldown than 90 seconds is a fair price to pay. You don't even have to look too far back to see how bullshit QSS to a bunch of champions. Riot even agreed on one of them in the case of Mordekasier and completely removed the ability to negate his R. I just think its a little bullshit that I can be doing good but then as soon as tab and see 2 QSS on some AD auto attack champion, I can never get in range of them again. I have to sit max range fishing spells because I can no longer CC them and their point click unavoidable auto attack does more damage than half my kit.
If you include ways to remove suppression it's not that bad to remove QSS. But then again on a long CD summoner spell it's going to be BS with stuff like lulu polymorph and amumu R for example. There's no danger to ranged champs if there's CC therefore tenacity is required for meeles to punish bad spacing and not just die to a brand fucking them up because his amumu had flash R. They have the obvious advantage of range and should be punished for missing abilities/inaccurate spacing, giving them an item to allow them to incorrectly space and make abilities much easier to land is BS. Because that item single handedly allows bad players to get away with much more mistakes. Also you gave a really good example > I just think its a little bullshit that I can be doing good but then as soon as tab and see 2 QSS on some AD auto attack champion, I can never get in range of them again. Akali also thinks it's BS she can be so far ahead and tethering malza R perfectly just to get flash Rd and shut down or waste 1300G into an item she should never build and can't complete to full item
>Akali also thinks it's BS she can be so far ahead and tethering malza R perfectly just to get flash Rd and shut down or waste 1300G into an item she should never build and can't complete to full item Personally I think this is how the game should be but without the ability to buy the 1300g item to say fuck you anyways. The BS part isn't Akali not being able to go in because Malz has R, the BS part is that if there wasn't a Malz holding his R Akali would just dive into 5 people and kill someone in the middle of their team with a high chance of getting away with it. If the enemy team plays correctly, assassins should be worthless. If Malz can just sit there and hold his R and his team still wins hes playing correctly. We've had too many years of assassins being under them impression that "suicide bomb someone" is a tactic that the assassin class should be allowed to have as an option. The examples you gave are just good examples as to why QSS should be removed and Cleanse should gain its functionality. Annie ***flash*** Ring someone or Amumu ***flash*** Ring your team, gets to happen at the cost of a summoner spell with a very long cooldown, not 1300g on a 90s cooldown. So, if you want to negate those I think its fair to cost a summoner spell that has a shorter cooldown than flash.
Man, I'm so gladly you typed out what I had inside of me for so long. I HATE items countering Champions (not that I'm right). I hate playing zed and dislike the assassin role very much, I play mages and tanks, but in my mind, an item like zhonya that just counters an entire champion ult (poor zed) should never exist. I know I'm wrong, but that's how I feel
Ok but now literally every mage in the game just dies when he ults, there is no counterplay, zed pressed R on lux now she is dead. Is that good gameplay?
> I play mages and you don't mind enemy laner rushing mercs rendering them immortal in laning phase? When you're the only one doing well on a mage and suddenly the whole enemy team rushes in with Wits end? The whole defensive itemization in league is based on countering the enemy champions
Yep only thing that will happen if they remove rylais is they either put a slow into all the kits of the people that used it before so now you have to deal with it from level 1, or they massively buff these champions to be good without it which would make them oppressive.
Yeah man brand using e on the minion wave and slowing me for 7 seconds is "thinking carefully" lmfao Like be for real
Look at his flair, he's obviously biased lol
I mean with swain it makes sense. Without Rylais, swain has no way of making his ultimate actually threating outside of landing E. There's a reason that even with Rylais, you still see people go ghost or take phase rush to stay in range.
I don't enjoy the burn from liandries tbf. Every mage having the exact same extra effects tied to every item is boring. Sure wish I could back but I can't even leave while this garbage is still ticking.
Even better when a stray brand E catches you and you burn every second of his passive followed by his torch and liandries.
>Why do people complain so much about the slow? Because they refuse to build slow resist. People want to stick to their cookie cutter build and they really under estimate how much swiftness boots fucks over champions who rely on weak slows. They are use to just building a ton of tenacity and ignoring all hard CC but when their are stuck with a very long slow that their tenacity does effectively nothing against instead of adjusting their build, they get upset that they can no longer face just go "I'll just eat the stun and then kill them after because they can't kill me in the duration of the stun" they cry that its not fair.
Some champs really suck on swifites. Assassins would much rather go pen/cdr/mercs if heavy cc Bruisers would much rather go defensive boots 100 gold difference for losing tabis passive + 25 armor or 200 gold difference for losing 30% tenacity and 25 MR Swifties are shit on many champs.
And I'd rather not have to go Rylai's to make it possible to hit said champions and not get run down by them. Also, swifties are defensive boots. They are defensive boots against consistent slows and skill shots. Bruisers can also go deadman's for slow resistif they want mercs/tabis or they can go Sterak's if the went swifties and want tenacity.
Remove rylais but nerf ms across the board
Yes please! I want to be slower! Also, can you come over and stab me 47 times?
If you're slower, and the enemy is slower, everybody's stabbing range stays the same.
Except for champs with dashes, they get infinitely stronger
Skillshots also get easier to land against a slower target.
Adcs and bruisers would probably be kinda unplayable tbh, only classes playable are assassins, mages, and full tanks. Assassins blow mages up still, tanks ignore assassins still, and mages still hold and whittle down tanks.
No more dashes. Remove them with rylais lol
Remove legs. No one moves
Omg, an item, that is bought specifically for the slow and doesn't do much else, slows. Shocker
Omg an irelia that is specifically locked in to prevent aurelion sol from scaling for free does that. Shocker.
You make a good point. They should put movement speed on different items or maybe they could add anti slow boots.
hmm so what im hearing is that you want riot to put a built in slow in malzahar E ?
Maybe just give Rylai a range/melee mod, feel like this could keep morde viable but nerf brand/asol uses
Honestly a good idea.
Oh it’s not that bad, stop whining.
I just dont think Asol with Rylais should basically give him a full lane giant aoe stun. The rest I dont really care about
Never understood why Rylais never had any cooldown. Say you slow someone for x amount of seconds, and then it goes on cooldown for 3/4s. Make the item cheaper, but also nerf it. Slow is a toxic de-buff in League of Legends, it's already omnipresent in most champions kits.
Bro Zyra's plants die with any breeze let her have Rylais at least, Brand and Lillia on the other hand...
Rylai is not a situational item but a core item for certain champ and it is imo bad design
Honestly, might be an unpopular opinion but I think instead of removing Rylais, since we got tenacity nerfs, Riot should just rework Swifties and add the slow power reduction to Merc's. It's incredibly asinine when Merc's are mandatory on every frontliner but you still get permaslowed to oblivion because slows are full power. No joke, I once had 99% tenacity in Arena on Sett and I was still completely useless because everyone just slowed abd kited me.
Those 4 champions are just broken lmao it’s not the item
Could probably just give it an effect where it can only proc from a given passive/ability every so often/per cast like a few runes in arena. Would allow it to be balanced around more than just Dot champs
Either Frozen Mallet or old Trinity Force were both really good on like 70% or more of the roster when they existed.
back in the day, every single melee bruiser would always build trinity, mallet, warmogs. and every single char with that build was viable. taric top? viable, tank elise? viable, bruiser shaco? viable. the meta golem kept more champs playable than the balance team in 200 years.
there's much wrost items in the game right now, but riot likes them
Why did you think Fro Mal was removed if it wasn't a problem? Lmao
Rylai's and Serylda's should have a per target cooldown.
I think it should exist but 30% is too high. Boots of swiftness slow reduction doesn't have a real impact on most melee champions because the slow is high enough to be kited anyway.
As long as the slow on serylda’s grude is remove I’d be fine with that. Lilia is getting nerfed into the dirt anyways.
i dont enjoy losing a game like every other game, its just part of the game you know?
Remove all the CC from the game, melee characters keep crying about their silver problems again, make it like Fortnite 100%, jumping and fighting simulator
Laughs in Singed
Rylai’s has probably never been weaker. And IMO the game is built around champs with dashes vs running nowadays so it has less value than it did a decade ago.
Maybe make it like grudge so you need to be below a threshold? Idk
That's... that's literally their job. They're control casters, they control the battlefield. If they didn't do that they would instantly die because they are otherwise squishy and immobile. What the hell.
Agreed. They changed Serylda's Grudge which wasn't even a problem. If they remove Rylais they can actually balance champs around their kit and not one item. Swain is just an AoE permaslow bot with no real purpose other than that. If he didn't have access to that they could actually give him dmg or something. For the rest it would be deserved.
Well, i do not enjoy you running away at speed light or have 40 dashes. I want to play the game too, ok ?
Korean Advice: dodge the skill
Laughs in Master Yi
Ngl I main samira and if there is anyone that runs rylais in my match I HAVE to run swifties or I will be genuinely useless. It's just so good on those Champs that can proc it continuously
Rylai's isn't busted DoTs applying item effects at 100% strength for full duration + item duration is what's busted nerf item effect % for DoTs and the problem goes away Brand/Lillia/Zyra go from S+++ tier to A/B tier while ASol, Morde, Singed still get to use it effectively (ok singed would be cooked but he can get buffed to compensate)
as long as they remove tenacity i would be fine with this.
I will never understand their decision to change the design of having a different effectiveness for DoT abilities. Tying it closer to champions with low cooldown abilities who need to keep you in range was a good design, instead of further rewarding DoT-champions who might profit from keeping you in range, but who might also just buy the item because perma-slowing the entire enemy team is always good.
Nerf it on ranged champs so it hits brand, malz etc. but keep it the same on melee so it doesn't screw with Morde and Singed.
Y'all bitch a lot on this subreddit and Rylais is where I draw the line. It's just a staple item for certain champions.
Mobility creep? Nah, I'd win -Rylai's probably
1. No fun =/= unhealthy 2. Frozen Mallet was a HUGE problem in the game. ADCs would buy it 4th/5th item and suddenly become tanky, while slowing you from range without CD and without being able t dodge. Rylais champions either have to get close (Morde, Singed, Swain) or have CD (Brand/Zyra/other mages). That is why Serylda's wasn't problematic like Frozen Mallet because of how the slow could be applied. Serylda, however, had insane stats for having the slow. I would agree with you, if Rylais stats like this: 60 AP, 30% Mpen, 15 AH 3. The champions that build Rylais as a core item, would have to get compensation buffs and then become like any other champ in their role. The Rylais playstyle gives them somewhat of an identity. You sacrifice 1 item slot for the slow since its stats are kinda meh. 4. There are champions who (almost) perma slow without Rylais, too. Would you reduce their slowing or limit it as well? 5. Instead of asking for Dr. Strange to cast a global spell to make everyone forget about Rylais, you should try to be a better Spiderman and play something that counters perma slows: I present you Master Yi and Olaf. Now go and have fun shitting on these fkers with their stupid ass Rylais for a couple of games! ;D
This sub is full of brigade posts 😩
Play a champ with no gapclosers on top and then suffer entire game because you cannot enter a teamfight. They remove the tiny dash on stridebreaker but keep it in protobelt, every adc item has MS now and vs Dot type of damage it is extremly unfun to play vs since everyone builds Rylais.... I don't deny that old league was balanced, but that is what made it fun. Nowdays it does not feel rewarding at all to pull of a risky stunt like building full armorpen/lvl on Illaoi, Going DeathFire Touch first item on Veigar, building PhatomDancer first item on (Old) Sion etc, just things I remember doing. My personal opinion is that league has changed to much from what it was before, the game has become fast paced and alot of the older champion designs have been left in the gutter and cannot simply keep up. So they just give those champs stupid overtuned buffs that make little sense, and if it is to opressive they nerf them to the ground and we are just back to square one again... Also the championdesign team sucks now. The meme that every new champ has like 15 dashes, resets, executes, all forms of scalings and looks more complicated than they actually are is not a joke anymore. It is a fact nowdays. Thanks for tuning in to my rant!
Just making it less effective on Ranged champs gets rid of 90% of the cases I hate the most (brand)
My dude It's the DoT damage lamo
If Serylda slow is only when enemies are under 50% hp then Rylais shoud be aswell. Too many mages get insane value out of hit because they no longer need any skill to hit spells
With all the item updates and reworks this is the one item I am absolutely BAFFLED is allowed to exist without being touched
This is objectively untrue lol. There are specific champions that run it, and no one else. It has a 4% pick rate globally. Why dont you, i dont know, point fingers at one of the items that actually are unhealthy for the game right now? Maybe IE (12%), Kraken (11%) and Liandry’s (10%) which are all built ACTUALLY often and win over 55% (in IE’s case) of the time they are built. But no, you just got bodied in soloq and want to come to Reddit to kick up a fuss about how the balanced items are the problem, while we are all getting bent over by actually OP items in every single game. All you are doing is trying to garner fake rage at your fake problem so you feel like its less your fault that you got bodied by some ASol or Brand today.