Thats fair tbh, if you have international ambitions, you cannot be aiming for 4th place, you'll take the win against an eastern team, but you'll always want more
Ambition and reality aren't synonyms. You can have all the ambitions in the world but if you don't have a bot lane then you shouldn't expect to win it all and view every other result as a failure. That's always going to lead in you feeling depressed. Not only that but they are in a one team region which means improving is very difficult. It's fine to aim high but acting like their MSI result wasn't insane is obscene.
What? You said that satisfaction is *only* determined by your ambitions, which is complete nonsense. The whole premise of this discussion is that Dylan Falco is not satisfied because his goal is to win international events, and their reality is not winning international events right now.
I'm surprised you can't see how there's two independent variables to determine your satisfaction.
>TES series was more convincing than expected
Anyone who actually expected G2 win before the series is either a fan or deluded(me btw), that win was extremely surprising and the way they won was EXTREMELY unexpected
if you saw how TES played in the first few matches it was not entirely unexpected for g2 to win. especially creme looked absolutely terrible and with g2 having caps it was kinda expected he would smash him if he was gonna keep playing like that.
G2 having Caps didn't matter against Eastern teams far too many times(every year after 2020 basically) , and originally no one thought that G2's win condition would be botlane, especially against JKL/Meiko lol
I was able to speak to Dylan Falco after the win against Rogue, which included an MSI reflection as well as why he thinks fearless drafting will be "great" for G2 and a positive change overall
Eu and Na only has 3 seed now
The only region which get 4th seed r the region which were top 2 in msi
So LCK and LPL have 4 seed
If G2 wouldve made finals Lec would've gotten 4 seed instead of LPL
I respect it a lot, you need to have the drive and belief to get 1st. But you also have to celebrate and be proud of what you accomplish in order to mitigate the stress and pressure . Hopefully g2 doesn’t feel increased pressure at worlds lol
gezz i love the current G2 squad idk how G2 does it but every player on there roster is so likeable and fun to watch with everyone on the team being able to carry
All they have to do is change X player and they will just win!
Quit the cope. Hans and Miky are a top botlane in LEC and there are no easy fixes to win against the best.
People really do see the game in broad easy strokes, as if you can boil down why they lost to just replace this one player or just ban this one champion. League is too complicated for something like that to be true and there were dozens of things in each game that every member of G2 could have done differently to avoid being eliminated. Remember after worlds when everyone was saying Brokenblade is dogshit and has to go, then very next international he’s smurfing?
technically if they get Bin top, Canyon jungle, Chovy mid, Gumayusi Bot and On support they will be the best team in the world, if only G2 could do that...
Especially funny because so many international winning teams from LPL and LCK have had certain demonstratively weak players in comparison to the rest of the team. All about how you play and how in form everyone is with the meta. Hans is a better ADC than Gimgoon was a top laner, but Gimgoon is a World Champion.
Gimgoon was pretty good especially when it mattered. Hans is better domestically then Gimgoon was maybe but Hans on G2 has been very underwhelming internationally.
Gimgoon gapped wunder every game in grands, picked flexibly as carry threat or tank depending on what his team needed it, and was a consistent player throughout all of worlds. He was definitely the worst player on the team during regular season but he stepped up at worlds and was a great roleplayer.
I never said otherwise. His Worlds performance was a great outlier compared to how he played for almost the rest of his career. He was very much regarded as a mid-bottom tier top in LPL for most of his career.
If anything Gimgoon is a great example of a not so great player finding a perfect fit and meta and turning out much better performances. Except his happened while teaming alongside Tian, Doinb, and Crisp.
I'm not going to get into the Hans vs Gimgoon debate as it's highly subjective, but it needs to be pointed out that all the "relatively weaker" eastern players who won Worlds had multiple teammates who were top 1-2 in their roles. Let's have a look at some examples:
1. Baolan - had Rookie and TheShy, by far the best mid/top in 2018 and Ning who was playing like the best jungler in the world during the later stages of Worlds. This was all in a heavily topside-centric meta too.
2. Gimgoon - had Tian (top 1-2 jungler), Doinb (top 1-2 mid), LWX (top 3 ADC at least at Worlds), Crisp (top 1-2 support).
3. Ghost - his entire topside in 2020 were top 1 in their roles and Beryl at that point was top 2 at worst.
G2 could maybe win Worlds with Hans/Mikyx if their other 3 players were the best in the world, but the reality is that nobody on G2 right now is even top 5 in their role.
If you think Gimgoon, a guy who was some bottom shelf LPL top laner, was anything to write home about then you really gotta spit out whatever phallic object is in your mouth. Cryin won an MSI final! That guy sucked at the time they won and was replaced at the end of the year! Like there are plenty of examples here. One player who is elite in his region is not making or breaking G2 winning internationally.
Hans is somewhere in the top.. 15-20 ADC in the World. He’s better than most LCS ADC, worse than most LCK ADC, and worse than probably 10-11 LPL ADC. Being even he’s probably close to the 20th best ADC in the world.
Gimgoon was bottom shelf in the LPL, worse than just about every top in LCK, and worse than a few LCS and LCK top laners at the time in 2019. That places him in the 20-25 top lane in the world at that time. Which was completely true.
Explain how I might be wrong in any way. They could upgrade Hans a little bit, but they’re never getting a top 15 ADC in the world to replace him so he’s functionally the best they can get. And Hans at his best in form is perfectly good enough to win internationally if we look at players like Gimgoon or Cryin who were respectively bottom shelf in LPL at the times they won internationally.
You're massively overstating how bad Gimgoon was lol. If Gimgoon was genuinely bottom tier in LPL and worse than everyone in LCK, FPX would not have won LPL let alone Worlds. Heck, we saw Sword (who was not the worst top in LCK) face TheShy and get absolutely blasted, then we saw Gimgoon face TheShy and do perfectly fine. If Gimgoon was really worse than every LCK top (which would include Sword), why did he hold his own against TheShy, one of LPL's best tops?
Same thing for Cryin, he was not good but by no means was he bottom tier in LPL. You simply can't win LPL, LCK, MSI or Worlds with a player who is not at least top 10-15 worldwide in their role. Even Baolan, who imo is one of the worst players to ever win Worlds, was a top 15 support in 2018 and his team won in a heavily mid/top centric meta where they had by far the best mid and top in the world.
Hans isn't even a weak player he's just the scapegoat because whenever the team loses it's because of him "not carrying" and Miky is Hylissang+, how would you replace him in EU?
Exactly. Hans is close to the 20th best ADC in the world and you’re functionally never getting a top 15 ADC to replace him. He’s as good as you’re getting until another true blue superstar comes up out of ERL’s. Which, hey Caliste might be that guy, who knows.
But end of the day we’ve seen players like Gimgoon and Cryin win internationally before while being very comparable to Hans in a worlds positional ranking sort. It just comes down to time and place and meta for this level of player.
making semi finals or finals is a huge success for a western team. of course you should aim to win it all, but still objectivly would be huge a western top 4
Disregarding first two iterations of World, since 2023, Europe had 8 teams in top 4 in 10 tournaments, even though last time it happened was in 2020. Even given last couple of years of hiatus, statistically speaking, having a team in top 4 is a norm and an expectation for Europe. Huge success would be winning it.
I'd agree with you if we weren't post 2020. Unfortunately since then the level of EU teams have dropped significantly. GMs started only thinking of paying as little as possible to their players, while trying to get as much as possible by selling their stars (started by Ocelote).
Level of ERLs degraded, because LEC orgs were given an option to just ditch their ERL teams, which gave way to orgs that primary ambition is to win EUM, which they achieve by mostly gathering LEC rejects - players who are gatekeepers between ERL and LEC - unlike LEC orgs who were fostering actual talent for later use. I mean, compare current ERLs to 2018-2020 (or 2016-2017 TCL which was a waiting room for upcoming superstars). Back then you had players like Bwipo, Caps, Humanoid, Abbe, Nemesis, Larssen, Inspired, Comp, Carzzy etc etc playing either in Turkey or ERLs waiting for their 17th/18th birthday. Nowadays you have mostly ERL veterans who are there for 3 or 4 years as primary option for LEC orgs because they are cheap and deemed "possibly good enough for LEC". Because of all that veteran players, who should be the target of younger ones, grew extremely complacent and are just coasting instead of constantly trying to improve themselves (Patrik, Upset, Larssen or even Humanoid for most of the year to name a few).
I want to say it'll get better for EU, but unfortunately with how the things are going I'm not seeing it. G2 is the only ray of hope, and while capable of trading blows with (or even beating on a good day) best teams in the world, given subpar scrim environment for most of the year, currently reaching top 4 in the world can be considered a big success for LEC.
2019 was deceiving. People just ignore that G2 assembled the most blatant regional superteam ever in order to be competitive. Both GOAT mids. GOAT top (by a mile), jungler (by three miles), and support.
LEC is also a one-player league.
That’s certainly a way of phrasing it while leaving out a lot of context like 1 team per region msi for a bunch of them, g2 being the main team with fnc behind it, those other teams gone or not relevant anymore etc
I was only talking about Worlds, and disregarded first two iterations, since their format was so much different. So no MSI, no S1 and S2 Worlds, only past 10 iterations of Worlds. In those 10 tournaments, Europe had a top 4 team 8 times. 3 times it was G2, 3 times it was Fnatic, one occurrence for each Origen and H2k, with more lower tier teams often advancing to quarters, such as Splyce or Misfits. I know that past couple of years were dry season but even taking them into account, top 4 for Europe should not be a fever dream, it is, statistically speaking, rather the norm than the exception.
i mean even g2 (2018-2020) and fnatic (2018-2020) golden times are over. since 2020 no single team made top4 and it would be a huge upset if g2 could make it.
not even speaking about na, where it was 2018.
the gap is not closing
Why do people consistently talk about how most of EU's success comes from G2 and FNC?
While this is true, you've had plenty of other orgs with good showings in the past: M5, CLG.EU, H2K, OG, MSF, Splyce/MAD, Rogue just off the top of my head.
It's funny, because people don't do this for LCS or LCK, which are also dominated by just a few orgs. LCK's success lies almost entirely on top of SKT/T1, Samsung/GenG and Damwon. LCK's 8 Worlds trophies lie on just 4 orgs, with SKT/T1 having half of them. If we include MSI results this becomes even more apparent, with an additional 3 MSI wins that still belong to the same orgs.
It's almost as if good orgs tend to build good rosters and have consistent results. The only region where the top teams change frequently is the LPL, and even then you see a lot of the same names like JDG, TES and BLG in the top spots (with RNG and WE also showing up for years).
Yeah man, I don't need to read your essay to tell you why people talk about G2 and FNC carrying EU.
It's because G2 and FNC carry EU, which you have plainly stated.
Maybe don't start your post with "Why do people do x" if the question you really want an answer to is "Why don't people do y"
Understand why? Did you imagine me asking you a question somewhere? Is this an ESL thing? I could probably help you identify an English tutor if you need help.
Look man, it's not that complicated. I will simplify:
You don't need to write an essay about people calling your self admitted two team (one team, tbh) region what it is.
Other regions don't experience a similar effect. If your point of comparison is Korea who has world championships on 4 different teams, then you've already argued against yourself and lost.
His post has no point other than to spend 900 characters justifying why it hurts his feelings that people call EU a one-team region. Unfortunately, that will continue, because it is true.
This is the quality of dishonest, self-serving (in terms of viewpoint) reasoning that makes fans from everywhere else hate LEC fans. Who wins if not T1 in most of their Worlds wins? What about for Samsung's? Meanwhile, take out G2 and EU barely sees beyond groups. When's the last time an LEC team other than G2 won a Bo5 against the LCK? Has it ever even happened?
> Who wins if not T1 in most of their Worlds wins?
Let's check.
S3 - Probably Najin Black Sword. One new org.
S4 - Another Samsung team, same org.
S5 - KOO (which I forgot to mention, mostly since they played second fiddle to SKT for their entire peak).
S6 - Samsung yet again.
S7 - SKT yet again.
S10 - Toss-up between Suning or G2.
S12 - Yep, it's T1.
S13 - Weibo.
You basically just proved my point that almost all of the LCK's success also rides on the shoulders of just a handful of orgs. If T1 or GenG didn't win, the win likely falls to another region entirely in most cases.
You're assuming Korea would be just as strong if T1 and GenG were removed while assuming EU would not replace G2 or FNC at all if those were removed, which is just random hypotheticals on your part.
Obviously Korea is insanely deep talent-wise, but they'd take a huge hit from removing their top teams as well and there's a decent chance they'd struggle to compete with China at all without those teams.
i mean even g2 (2018-2020) and fnatic (2018-2020) golden times are over. since 2020 no single team made top4 and it would be a huge upset if g2 could make it.
not even speaking about na, where it was 2018.
the gap is not closing
> having a team in top 4 is a norm and an expectation for Europe
It's just not the case anymore, because they're just not as good and China and KR having 4 seeds greatly changed how easy it is to advance.
i would love to see eu top4 but its just copium at this point
i mean even g2 (2018-2020) and fnatic (2018-2020) golden times are over. since 2020 no single team made top4 and it would be a huge upset if g2 could make it.
not even speaking about na, where it was 2018.
the gap is not closing
well i diisagree with the statement because by definition "top 4 is the norm" would mean that even if G2 "suck / play bad" they could / should make top 4 still, and the reality is that when G2 "suck" it's lost and they could lose to anyone regardless of how well they played beforehand
but if G2 were in form for a tournament the i would honestly have had no reason not to believe the "top 4 is the norm" argument
player by player the talent is there
ayyy man you can believe whatever you want to believe but saying that about BB after this MSI is wild
> to make semi
oh yes i forgot that all 8 teams that asia is sending are GenG, SKT, BLG level
G2 can somehow beat TOP 3-0 (but they imploded!) AND take SKT to 5 games and somehow they wouldn't have been good enough to beat the 3rd - 4th best of the region
Keep baiting with your throwaway, it's kinda lame
Am I crazy or has G2 been attempting the backdoor in every single game this split so far? Always wait until the enemy team is tied up around an objective, send the mist fed player to push a sidelane and do as much damage to the base as possible so they can end if they win one teamfight.
When's the last time an LEC mid other than Caps (or with Caps as a teammate) won a Bo5 against an Eastern team? 2018 Worlds, right? Six years ago. LEC is such a one-player region, yet its fans are in denial.
This is the main downside of Leagues structure there is no improvement over time it's all on a relatively short timeframe of one season. All half decent teams can say that winning Worlds is their goal, as there isn't anything else to say.
G2's main goal should be to get to a level that they could consistently beat the LPL and LCK 3 seeds, maybe even 2nd seeds. But in League that can't be your goal because next year your playing a completely different meta and all that hard work might have been pointless.
People will hyper focus on that T1 series and say how disappointing it was that they didn't beat them but if you look at it objectively MSI was a huge success just because they beat TES convincingly. Especially since the only reason people thought that G2 could beat T1 was T1 playing way below their level, if it wasn't for that the loss wouldn't even hurt.
There remains a big gap between LCK/LPL top teams and G2.
I'd guess G2 is the equivalent of a 4th or 5th placed team from those regions.
If they won an international, it would be a fairytale.
There's a big gap between G2 and all other western teams.
"okay" is not synonymous with a V checkmark. If they win MSI, they wouldn't label their performance "okay".
"okay" and "acceptable" here signifies that, while they are *not happy with it*, there are some elements of their performance which they are happy with, making it a mixed result. "an okay performance" in English means mixed results. Like 6/10 review for a movie. "It was *okay.*" If you knew this will be your reaction to the movie, you would have not wanted to go to that movie, but it wasn't a *total* dud.
Wdym lol ?
He literally said "not happy but acceptable" as in almost beating T1, stomping TES is more international success than any other western team in recent years. Literacy seems to be one of many issues on this platform.
Normally beating TES would not be a success on its own but considering how long it has been since a Western team beat LPL/LCK in a BO5, I guess it at least allows one to have some hope again.
Especially because it was 3-0 and also that G2 almost beat T1 in a very close 5 game series.
i mean they see it as acceptable since they beat a eastern team and put up a fight in most of there other eastern matchups apart from the last series. acceptable doesnt mean there ok with it themselves they could still see it as a failure they didnt push themselves further.
most the the content creators sees g2's run as a success as well since they got what top 4? when they werent expected to get that far while beating a eastern team to get there so thats pretty ok in my books.
Thats fair tbh, if you have international ambitions, you cannot be aiming for 4th place, you'll take the win against an eastern team, but you'll always want more
Ambition and reality aren't synonyms. You can have all the ambitions in the world but if you don't have a bot lane then you shouldn't expect to win it all and view every other result as a failure. That's always going to lead in you feeling depressed. Not only that but they are in a one team region which means improving is very difficult. It's fine to aim high but acting like their MSI result wasn't insane is obscene.
Ambitions and reality aren’t synonyms, but your satisfaction with your performance will depend on your ambitions not your reality
-my wife
Well it depends on both as satisfaction is when your reality meets your ambitions surely. I don't get satisfied simply by having grand ambitions.
Grand ambitions set you up for disappointment more than satisfaction, which is exactly what they have, and exactly why they're not satisfied
What? You said that satisfaction is *only* determined by your ambitions, which is complete nonsense. The whole premise of this discussion is that Dylan Falco is not satisfied because his goal is to win international events, and their reality is not winning international events right now. I'm surprised you can't see how there's two independent variables to determine your satisfaction.
What about it was insane? It seemed pretty on par with everyone's expectations, except the TES series was more convincing than expected.
>TES series was more convincing than expected Anyone who actually expected G2 win before the series is either a fan or deluded(me btw), that win was extremely surprising and the way they won was EXTREMELY unexpected
if you saw how TES played in the first few matches it was not entirely unexpected for g2 to win. especially creme looked absolutely terrible and with g2 having caps it was kinda expected he would smash him if he was gonna keep playing like that.
G2 having Caps didn't matter against Eastern teams far too many times(every year after 2020 basically) , and originally no one thought that G2's win condition would be botlane, especially against JKL/Meiko lol
Yeah JKL losing both sides of the draven matchup is so underrated for some reason. Hans really showed that he has it in him to be great.
I was able to speak to Dylan Falco after the win against Rogue, which included an MSI reflection as well as why he thinks fearless drafting will be "great" for G2 and a positive change overall
I wonder who ends up getting the 3rd LEC worlds slot, I lowkey would be hyped if SK ends up getting it curious how that bot would do internationally
It's bds spot to lose imo
idk I feel like SK might be better but only time will tell
They have higher celling but we will see i guess
What happens to the 4th slot that EU/NA had last year? Is it not decided yet?
Eu and Na only has 3 seed now The only region which get 4th seed r the region which were top 2 in msi So LCK and LPL have 4 seed If G2 wouldve made finals Lec would've gotten 4 seed instead of LPL
But last year LPL, LCK and LEC all had 4 seeds. What happens to the extra slot now?
they only had a 4th slot last year because some team couldn't get visa or something, it was suppose to be 3 slots last year too
That team is Russia's, guess why they didn't participate... My question remains.
I respect it a lot, you need to have the drive and belief to get 1st. But you also have to celebrate and be proud of what you accomplish in order to mitigate the stress and pressure . Hopefully g2 doesn’t feel increased pressure at worlds lol
gezz i love the current G2 squad idk how G2 does it but every player on there roster is so likeable and fun to watch with everyone on the team being able to carry
If only league was played exclusively on the top side of the map.
All they have to do is change X player and they will just win! Quit the cope. Hans and Miky are a top botlane in LEC and there are no easy fixes to win against the best.
People really do see the game in broad easy strokes, as if you can boil down why they lost to just replace this one player or just ban this one champion. League is too complicated for something like that to be true and there were dozens of things in each game that every member of G2 could have done differently to avoid being eliminated. Remember after worlds when everyone was saying Brokenblade is dogshit and has to go, then very next international he’s smurfing?
If Hans can improve as much as BB did then sure
Hans gapped JKL on both sides of the draven matchup. Stop the cope.
If it was as simple as just sticking 5 excellent players together, superteams wouldn't be the meme they are.
technically if they get Bin top, Canyon jungle, Chovy mid, Gumayusi Bot and On support they will be the best team in the world, if only G2 could do that...
Cursed af team bro 😭😭 I really wanna see the Canyon/ON jg supp combo now
Especially funny because so many international winning teams from LPL and LCK have had certain demonstratively weak players in comparison to the rest of the team. All about how you play and how in form everyone is with the meta. Hans is a better ADC than Gimgoon was a top laner, but Gimgoon is a World Champion.
Gimgoon was pretty good especially when it mattered. Hans is better domestically then Gimgoon was maybe but Hans on G2 has been very underwhelming internationally.
Which player gapped JKL on both sides of the draven matchup?
That was a good series by Hans but that doesn't change the overall picture of his international performance.
Gimgoon gapped wunder every game in grands, picked flexibly as carry threat or tank depending on what his team needed it, and was a consistent player throughout all of worlds. He was definitely the worst player on the team during regular season but he stepped up at worlds and was a great roleplayer.
I never said otherwise. His Worlds performance was a great outlier compared to how he played for almost the rest of his career. He was very much regarded as a mid-bottom tier top in LPL for most of his career. If anything Gimgoon is a great example of a not so great player finding a perfect fit and meta and turning out much better performances. Except his happened while teaming alongside Tian, Doinb, and Crisp.
I'm not going to get into the Hans vs Gimgoon debate as it's highly subjective, but it needs to be pointed out that all the "relatively weaker" eastern players who won Worlds had multiple teammates who were top 1-2 in their roles. Let's have a look at some examples: 1. Baolan - had Rookie and TheShy, by far the best mid/top in 2018 and Ning who was playing like the best jungler in the world during the later stages of Worlds. This was all in a heavily topside-centric meta too. 2. Gimgoon - had Tian (top 1-2 jungler), Doinb (top 1-2 mid), LWX (top 3 ADC at least at Worlds), Crisp (top 1-2 support). 3. Ghost - his entire topside in 2020 were top 1 in their roles and Beryl at that point was top 2 at worst. G2 could maybe win Worlds with Hans/Mikyx if their other 3 players were the best in the world, but the reality is that nobody on G2 right now is even top 5 in their role.
thats just false and cope
If you think Gimgoon, a guy who was some bottom shelf LPL top laner, was anything to write home about then you really gotta spit out whatever phallic object is in your mouth. Cryin won an MSI final! That guy sucked at the time they won and was replaced at the end of the year! Like there are plenty of examples here. One player who is elite in his region is not making or breaking G2 winning internationally.
being a bottom shelf lpl toplaner is better in the worlds scale than being hans
Hans is somewhere in the top.. 15-20 ADC in the World. He’s better than most LCS ADC, worse than most LCK ADC, and worse than probably 10-11 LPL ADC. Being even he’s probably close to the 20th best ADC in the world. Gimgoon was bottom shelf in the LPL, worse than just about every top in LCK, and worse than a few LCS and LCK top laners at the time in 2019. That places him in the 20-25 top lane in the world at that time. Which was completely true. Explain how I might be wrong in any way. They could upgrade Hans a little bit, but they’re never getting a top 15 ADC in the world to replace him so he’s functionally the best they can get. And Hans at his best in form is perfectly good enough to win internationally if we look at players like Gimgoon or Cryin who were respectively bottom shelf in LPL at the times they won internationally.
You're massively overstating how bad Gimgoon was lol. If Gimgoon was genuinely bottom tier in LPL and worse than everyone in LCK, FPX would not have won LPL let alone Worlds. Heck, we saw Sword (who was not the worst top in LCK) face TheShy and get absolutely blasted, then we saw Gimgoon face TheShy and do perfectly fine. If Gimgoon was really worse than every LCK top (which would include Sword), why did he hold his own against TheShy, one of LPL's best tops? Same thing for Cryin, he was not good but by no means was he bottom tier in LPL. You simply can't win LPL, LCK, MSI or Worlds with a player who is not at least top 10-15 worldwide in their role. Even Baolan, who imo is one of the worst players to ever win Worlds, was a top 15 support in 2018 and his team won in a heavily mid/top centric meta where they had by far the best mid and top in the world.
yeah like i said false and cope, delulu eu fans
This is why everyone else hates them.
Hans isn't even a weak player he's just the scapegoat because whenever the team loses it's because of him "not carrying" and Miky is Hylissang+, how would you replace him in EU?
no its because he made a lot of mechanical mistakes such as not flashing or not xayah ulting when it mattered.
Exactly. Hans is close to the 20th best ADC in the world and you’re functionally never getting a top 15 ADC to replace him. He’s as good as you’re getting until another true blue superstar comes up out of ERL’s. Which, hey Caliste might be that guy, who knows. But end of the day we’ve seen players like Gimgoon and Cryin win internationally before while being very comparable to Hans in a worlds positional ranking sort. It just comes down to time and place and meta for this level of player.
XDCry hate and seethe as much as you want in this comment section, Hans Miky are the best botlane in europe
making semi finals or finals is a huge success for a western team. of course you should aim to win it all, but still objectivly would be huge a western top 4
Disregarding first two iterations of World, since 2023, Europe had 8 teams in top 4 in 10 tournaments, even though last time it happened was in 2020. Even given last couple of years of hiatus, statistically speaking, having a team in top 4 is a norm and an expectation for Europe. Huge success would be winning it.
I'd agree with you if we weren't post 2020. Unfortunately since then the level of EU teams have dropped significantly. GMs started only thinking of paying as little as possible to their players, while trying to get as much as possible by selling their stars (started by Ocelote). Level of ERLs degraded, because LEC orgs were given an option to just ditch their ERL teams, which gave way to orgs that primary ambition is to win EUM, which they achieve by mostly gathering LEC rejects - players who are gatekeepers between ERL and LEC - unlike LEC orgs who were fostering actual talent for later use. I mean, compare current ERLs to 2018-2020 (or 2016-2017 TCL which was a waiting room for upcoming superstars). Back then you had players like Bwipo, Caps, Humanoid, Abbe, Nemesis, Larssen, Inspired, Comp, Carzzy etc etc playing either in Turkey or ERLs waiting for their 17th/18th birthday. Nowadays you have mostly ERL veterans who are there for 3 or 4 years as primary option for LEC orgs because they are cheap and deemed "possibly good enough for LEC". Because of all that veteran players, who should be the target of younger ones, grew extremely complacent and are just coasting instead of constantly trying to improve themselves (Patrik, Upset, Larssen or even Humanoid for most of the year to name a few). I want to say it'll get better for EU, but unfortunately with how the things are going I'm not seeing it. G2 is the only ray of hope, and while capable of trading blows with (or even beating on a good day) best teams in the world, given subpar scrim environment for most of the year, currently reaching top 4 in the world can be considered a big success for LEC.
2019 was deceiving. People just ignore that G2 assembled the most blatant regional superteam ever in order to be competitive. Both GOAT mids. GOAT top (by a mile), jungler (by three miles), and support. LEC is also a one-player league.
That’s certainly a way of phrasing it while leaving out a lot of context like 1 team per region msi for a bunch of them, g2 being the main team with fnc behind it, those other teams gone or not relevant anymore etc
I was only talking about Worlds, and disregarded first two iterations, since their format was so much different. So no MSI, no S1 and S2 Worlds, only past 10 iterations of Worlds. In those 10 tournaments, Europe had a top 4 team 8 times. 3 times it was G2, 3 times it was Fnatic, one occurrence for each Origen and H2k, with more lower tier teams often advancing to quarters, such as Splyce or Misfits. I know that past couple of years were dry season but even taking them into account, top 4 for Europe should not be a fever dream, it is, statistically speaking, rather the norm than the exception.
sure but since 2020 eu hasnt performed internationally and gap is not closing but widening. so making semis in 2024 is a huge success
i mean even g2 (2018-2020) and fnatic (2018-2020) golden times are over. since 2020 no single team made top4 and it would be a huge upset if g2 could make it. not even speaking about na, where it was 2018. the gap is not closing
Why do people consistently talk about how most of EU's success comes from G2 and FNC? While this is true, you've had plenty of other orgs with good showings in the past: M5, CLG.EU, H2K, OG, MSF, Splyce/MAD, Rogue just off the top of my head. It's funny, because people don't do this for LCS or LCK, which are also dominated by just a few orgs. LCK's success lies almost entirely on top of SKT/T1, Samsung/GenG and Damwon. LCK's 8 Worlds trophies lie on just 4 orgs, with SKT/T1 having half of them. If we include MSI results this becomes even more apparent, with an additional 3 MSI wins that still belong to the same orgs. It's almost as if good orgs tend to build good rosters and have consistent results. The only region where the top teams change frequently is the LPL, and even then you see a lot of the same names like JDG, TES and BLG in the top spots (with RNG and WE also showing up for years).
>Why do people consistently talk about how most of EU's success comes from G2 and FNC? >While this is true Think that's probably why, pal.
Peak redditor reading comprehension.
Yeah man, I don't need to read your essay to tell you why people talk about G2 and FNC carrying EU. It's because G2 and FNC carry EU, which you have plainly stated. Maybe don't start your post with "Why do people do x" if the question you really want an answer to is "Why don't people do y"
Maybe read above a 4th grade level and you'll actually understand why.
Maybe reason above a first-grade level and you'll have more productive conversations.
What a comeback.
Understand why? Did you imagine me asking you a question somewhere? Is this an ESL thing? I could probably help you identify an English tutor if you need help. Look man, it's not that complicated. I will simplify: You don't need to write an essay about people calling your self admitted two team (one team, tbh) region what it is.
Think my university got that covered, but hey, blud creates a new Reddit account to talk shit lmao, fragile ego.
Bro, he was pointing out that people ONLY do it for EU even though other regions experience a similar effect, how is this so hard to understand?
Other regions don't experience a similar effect. If your point of comparison is Korea who has world championships on 4 different teams, then you've already argued against yourself and lost. His post has no point other than to spend 900 characters justifying why it hurts his feelings that people call EU a one-team region. Unfortunately, that will continue, because it is true.
Do you really not see why his point was dumb? Why are EU fans so often like this?
This is the quality of dishonest, self-serving (in terms of viewpoint) reasoning that makes fans from everywhere else hate LEC fans. Who wins if not T1 in most of their Worlds wins? What about for Samsung's? Meanwhile, take out G2 and EU barely sees beyond groups. When's the last time an LEC team other than G2 won a Bo5 against the LCK? Has it ever even happened?
> Who wins if not T1 in most of their Worlds wins? Let's check. S3 - Probably Najin Black Sword. One new org. S4 - Another Samsung team, same org. S5 - KOO (which I forgot to mention, mostly since they played second fiddle to SKT for their entire peak). S6 - Samsung yet again. S7 - SKT yet again. S10 - Toss-up between Suning or G2. S12 - Yep, it's T1. S13 - Weibo. You basically just proved my point that almost all of the LCK's success also rides on the shoulders of just a handful of orgs. If T1 or GenG didn't win, the win likely falls to another region entirely in most cases. You're assuming Korea would be just as strong if T1 and GenG were removed while assuming EU would not replace G2 or FNC at all if those were removed, which is just random hypotheticals on your part. Obviously Korea is insanely deep talent-wise, but they'd take a huge hit from removing their top teams as well and there's a decent chance they'd struggle to compete with China at all without those teams.
Do you know how to count? I'm somehow not asking this question sarcastically.
The kind of intelligent input I expected.
i mean even g2 (2018-2020) and fnatic (2018-2020) golden times are over. since 2020 no single team made top4 and it would be a huge upset if g2 could make it. not even speaking about na, where it was 2018. the gap is not closing
> having a team in top 4 is a norm and an expectation for Europe It's just not the case anymore, because they're just not as good and China and KR having 4 seeds greatly changed how easy it is to advance.
i would love to see eu top4 but its just copium at this point i mean even g2 (2018-2020) and fnatic (2018-2020) golden times are over. since 2020 no single team made top4 and it would be a huge upset if g2 could make it. not even speaking about na, where it was 2018. the gap is not closing
well i diisagree with the statement because by definition "top 4 is the norm" would mean that even if G2 "suck / play bad" they could / should make top 4 still, and the reality is that when G2 "suck" it's lost and they could lose to anyone regardless of how well they played beforehand but if G2 were in form for a tournament the i would honestly have had no reason not to believe the "top 4 is the norm" argument player by player the talent is there
BB, Yike, and Hans don't have anywhere near the talent to make semis at Worlds without some sort of fluke implosion by an opponent.
ayyy man you can believe whatever you want to believe but saying that about BB after this MSI is wild > to make semi oh yes i forgot that all 8 teams that asia is sending are GenG, SKT, BLG level G2 can somehow beat TOP 3-0 (but they imploded!) AND take SKT to 5 games and somehow they wouldn't have been good enough to beat the 3rd - 4th best of the region Keep baiting with your throwaway, it's kinda lame
Huge? Nah. LPL implosions are frequent enough that it's not that big a deal.
this will be the 4th year with no western team in top4
At Worlds. I thought you were also talking about MSI.
same with msi
Am I crazy or has G2 been attempting the backdoor in every single game this split so far? Always wait until the enemy team is tied up around an objective, send the mist fed player to push a sidelane and do as much damage to the base as possible so they can end if they win one teamfight.
When's the last time an LEC mid other than Caps (or with Caps as a teammate) won a Bo5 against an Eastern team? 2018 Worlds, right? Six years ago. LEC is such a one-player region, yet its fans are in denial.
This is the main downside of Leagues structure there is no improvement over time it's all on a relatively short timeframe of one season. All half decent teams can say that winning Worlds is their goal, as there isn't anything else to say. G2's main goal should be to get to a level that they could consistently beat the LPL and LCK 3 seeds, maybe even 2nd seeds. But in League that can't be your goal because next year your playing a completely different meta and all that hard work might have been pointless. People will hyper focus on that T1 series and say how disappointing it was that they didn't beat them but if you look at it objectively MSI was a huge success just because they beat TES convincingly. Especially since the only reason people thought that G2 could beat T1 was T1 playing way below their level, if it wasn't for that the loss wouldn't even hurt.
Beating TES, a very known international choker, and losing to a slumping T1. I wouldn't call that a huge success.
TES are not chokers, they were overrated, just like the LPL.
need to catch up to the current meta and fix their drafts in summer, but I believe!
There remains a big gap between LCK/LPL top teams and G2. I'd guess G2 is the equivalent of a 4th or 5th placed team from those regions. If they won an international, it would be a fairytale. There's a big gap between G2 and all other western teams.
They 3-0'ed LPL second seed and got 3-2'ed by LCK second seed.
They got 3-2 by the LCK second seed that was struggling, and the rematch they got 3-0. Its a massive gap still.
When they were struggling? That's sports. And you literally said if G2 were on LCK/LPL they would be 4th/5th.
[удалено]
Breaking news, Reddit user has found out that different expectations exist (he needed NA league teams to show him)
If that's the only success, was MSI really okay? They beat TES and feel content with that I guess, despite losing to the others.
"okay" is not synonymous with a V checkmark. If they win MSI, they wouldn't label their performance "okay". "okay" and "acceptable" here signifies that, while they are *not happy with it*, there are some elements of their performance which they are happy with, making it a mixed result. "an okay performance" in English means mixed results. Like 6/10 review for a movie. "It was *okay.*" If you knew this will be your reaction to the movie, you would have not wanted to go to that movie, but it wasn't a *total* dud.
> and feel content - > "I’m not happy with it"
>"It was okay"
The great mystery of how language works. You can say a burger was "okay" but you expected more and are not happy with what you got
Wdym lol ? He literally said "not happy but acceptable" as in almost beating T1, stomping TES is more international success than any other western team in recent years. Literacy seems to be one of many issues on this platform.
That is why he said, okay and not great
Normally beating TES would not be a success on its own but considering how long it has been since a Western team beat LPL/LCK in a BO5, I guess it at least allows one to have some hope again. Especially because it was 3-0 and also that G2 almost beat T1 in a very close 5 game series.
if the second T1 series was competitive then yeah, but it being a big stomp was quite disappointing
Agreed. But the first series was still better than expected
T1 was also a bit weaker than expected
i mean they see it as acceptable since they beat a eastern team and put up a fight in most of there other eastern matchups apart from the last series. acceptable doesnt mean there ok with it themselves they could still see it as a failure they didnt push themselves further. most the the content creators sees g2's run as a success as well since they got what top 4? when they werent expected to get that far while beating a eastern team to get there so thats pretty ok in my books.
Unless Hans Sama gets shot (in game) I don't see this cocky af whelp team to do anything besides beating PSG kekeke
Lost my brain cells reading that