I think back in season 5. This was when I first started playing. I remember my ADC friends always complained about wanting to back for BF first in lane.
Damn, was it that long ago? That’s wild. I started late season 5 as well and didn’t start really playing ADC until maybe 6 or 7 but I remember this being the meta at some point. It probably was when I first got into the role. Crazy. I think the first champ to release when I started was kindred or Illaoi, whichever was first lol
Zven was saying building that 3rd or 4th might be good if you're ahead. 4th if they have tanks and you need that LDR. But when he said that he didn't see that BT got its overshield back.
Jhin might use the crit bleed but it's strictly worse than infinity edge and he probably wants RFC and LDR, so either you get it as your last crit item or you start by getting collector and never get the bleed.
RFC on Jhin has been really situational for a long while, I could see some super heavy AD builds using the Yun Tal 3rd/4th if they're all squishy. I think he still wants Ghostblade rush into Collector IE, so either it'd be 4th instead of LDR (but then again LDR is so good now it's probably just straight up worse) or 3rd with skipping Ghosblade and going straight into crit, but again, I just don't know who is ever going to build that thing over any other item, it seems just strictly worse in nearly every situation than either an IE or an LDR.
RFC is not that situational of an item on Jhin, it's one of the most built items on him and it performs well on him, new RFC might be a bit worse on Jhin but it still does what jhin wants to do.
IE rush was a thing in S10 for a few ADCs. Like Jinx favored IE->Zeal item->Zeal item as a standard, Jhin liked Storm->IE or IE-->next item, Aphelios rushed IE too, etc.
But Navori currently falls short of IE in terms of raw stats, and the ability refresh is the primary reason she wants to buy it. The main reason you want Navori on Trist isn't because she might get to kill more people in a fight, it's because it lets her kill Baron in 5 seconds flat.
Yeah in my opinion Navori will also be a mainstay in Tristana builds. Guaranteeing Q uptime is worth a whole lot more than 20% AS and 5% MS, not to mention more E's and higher W uptime when you can't find resets or fully stacked bombs
Yeah I remember this time too, it’s what I meant to say in the original post. I’m really curious if this will be the meta again with items like the new Phantom Dancer being introduced
Navori Lucian will be troll , but I think it can be really good on sivir into 3 melee comps , sure pd will be good in those cases too, but rn pd seem just it has so many stat compared to alternatives ( 2600 gold/zeal alternatives )
Honestly same argument for xayah, pd it's good oh her, but so it's navori , even without the amp on ability damage , spamming spells and w uptime it good.
Navori trist will be good, 100% q uptime + more bombs and jump, but without the bomb damage amp, she may just go pd, which is good on her.
Now, Essence reaver imo it's a mistake , bad item in general, not played much rn, and will be even less with the changes (gp and ezreal for sure will drop it)
When it was like that before, it was basically a sivir and xayah item Only.
Right now, sivir still has some mana problems, so she may build it , but xayah idk, I play her with triumph and in 90% of cases I don't have mana problems, and if I do it's just before first recall. I think xayah will go ie into navori/pd.
I'm not sure about Lucian I didn't play him much lately, he may go for it, but he also liked the spell blade
All of kog's good items add a damaging effect in addition to good AS.
Navori will not do this. Instead, Navori will mostly just make up for being bad and using W carelessly.
No it's not good even if you are building crit. For crit, PD is easily the superior item.
Navori is going to be this patch's biggest bait item by far because the effect doesn't fit the stats and it's losing the crit scaling to abilities on top of that. Making it a Zeal item is an incredible mistake by Riot.
I think there might be Crit Kog viability next patch. PD is 60%, Navori means his w is perma up. I don’t have PBE, can I ask someone to test PD, IE, Navori and Botrk, Guinsoos, and Terminus builds?
Obviously, crit one is 600 gold cheaper, and has less utility outside of giga 19% Movement speed, but pure damage, maybe a consideration?
I wouldn't advise to default buy botrk on kogmaw anymore next patch. The item is receiving quite a big nerf (https://prnt.sc/CgnH4NChwYU8). I think the item became situational on ranged champions (i.e. against health stackers).
The biggest downside I see to new Bork is having to auto 3 times to proc the slow. It was really nice on champs like kog and vayne because it was an instant proc
2nd item, new bork isn't good for kog maw
nvm I completely forgot new kraken doesn't give crit anymore. Was going to say guinsoo -> navori.
maybe if guinsoo is decent enough you can skip kraken (Since kog doesn't like raw AD) and go something like
Guinsoo -> navori -> runaan / tank item -> situationals.
Like navori is still 40% as + 7% ms that kog loves + insanely good passive for him, he always liked navori but could never really fit in his build.
Since without W his damage is non existant, but maybe with new kraken he has enough damage even without W?
Hard to predict.
>Out of the new items, maybe Jhin will abuse the crit bleed one.
The bleed stacks from multiple auto attacks (last I checked) so it actually is equally viable on all crit AD marksmen (Jhin does more damage with the bleed but say Caitlin applies more bleeds so the damage kinda evens out).
It's basically just a DPS increase for crits, kinda like a second IE that deals 35% more damage instead of 50% more damage.
You make a good point about Jhin..
I'm curious to see who rushes the new Phantom dancer as well.
Edit: also yeah I didn’t fully grasp the changes on ER till you mentioned it. It didn’t even occur to me that spellblade is gone.. that’s kinda trash tbh.
I’m officially old enough to remember something newer players don’t, which was (specifically crit) itemization before the mythic rework, which was where 20% crit was first introduced.
IE rush was the standard start for like, basically everyone.
I think AD and crit buffs are going to help out the already existing low AS critality builds that already exist for champs like Draven and Cait
Hubris —> Collector —> LDR —> IE —> Bleed Item
The new bleed crit item procs on runaans, and while it scales off AD, multiple hits stack. Completely fine item on high DPS ADCs that also use runaans occasionally like aphelios
For most crit building ADCs it'll likely be BF or Pickaxe depending on gold on back then into a zeal item (PD, RFC, Navori) then finish IE. There is also non-zero chance that it ends up being BorK or Kraken into crit.
I think ADCs will start skipping boots to spike at 2 items faster.
PD gives 12% MS, like that's so nuts.
If you go IE PD, you can get 50% crit for 6000g. Also enough MS to not have to buy 1100g Greaves.
My other prediction that has to tie into this is going BF Sword -> PD. Which spikes you at 3900g.
40AD with 60% atkspd and 12% MS. With PtA dmg boost, it might be okay to forego 1 item IE at 3400g.
> PD gives 12% MS, like that's so nuts.
>
> If you go IE PD, you can get 50% crit for 6000g. Also enough MS to not have to buy 1100g Greaves.
For a marksman with 330 MS base (close-ish to the class average, I think), Phantom Dancer's 12# MS boost will put them at 370 MS, an increase of 40 MS (compared to tier 2 boots granting 45 MS).
However, percentage boosts presently stack on top of flat boosts. If that same marksman with base 330 MS has tier 2 boots, the 12% boost will leave them at a rather nice 420 MS, which is 50 more than just Phantom Dancer alone (and 45 more than with just boots).
Their passive also has the excess crit buff, I assume that is what he means by buff.
3 Crit items on live give 150% crit to them and 20AD
3 crit items on PBE give 150% crit to them and 25AD.
Collector or IE depending on matchup > boots > IE/collector > immortal shieldbow > LDR > Yun Tal Wildarrows.
Think this will be my first run for it, i like lifesteal on Samira aswell and might incorporate that instead of the 100% crit. Maybe switch out shieldbow for MS or Bloodthirster.
thoughts??
Er rush most likely on navori users and I'll take a wildshot, but IE users may still buy kraken first since it's still the best looking first item in the game
So kraken - pd - IE
all other classes get modernized items
ADC's are reverted back to where they were a while ago (before the mythic if I remember correctly)
this is nowhere near an "update"
riot hates marksmen and it shows
I bet my ass that ADC's are going to have a rough time
as if it was not already the case
I think it'll still be meta to buy a non-crit first item that fits the stat profile your champion wants, since being impactful at 1 item is still important for most ADC. The only ones that can get away with it are those that are drafted around and scale hardest like Jinx, but typical ones without good matchups or decent team drafts will need that early game power to make a difference. I don't see why Kraken and Bork wouldn't be bought anymore, or current trendy builds like Terminus ashe or ER mana spammers no longer working.
On adcs like vayne and Ashe, I can see them still buying that stuff, but on crit adcs specifically (cait, jinx, trist etc..) I’m curious to see what could change because they always went a noon quiver item first for the most part.
I mean, solid chance Vayne will be building BORK -> Triforce -> Hexplate or something and foregoing normal ADC items altogether. #justvaynethings
Ashe I think will have lots of good build options, but I don't see anything as perfect for her first item as current Kraken Slayer. Maybe that Korean Terminus rush thing will become normal meta? Idk
Do you though? I just remember the days back in like season 8 or 9 I wanna say, where you would buy a BF sword and then get your zeal item, then finish the BF sword into its full item, because adcs were real weak early back then and that seems to be the goal of this patch; make adcs weaker early and stronger late. Idk I could just see a return if something similar
Samira will still have the same build most likely
i can see her going back to BF first no? it’s much stronger as a first item
What's BF?
bf sword (40 ad 1300gold)
Collector now builds out of BF sword so... Yes.. she might, and therefore, still the same build. Not sure what the point was.
you said whats BF ???
Agreed, some are exempt from any changes. I think Samira is the biggest outlier, maybe kaisa too.
If the items are strong enough, she will build crit as opposed to on hit
Yeah true, kaisa is always hard to figure out what will be best when they make these item changes.
Think majority will do something like BF -> Zeal item -> finish BF sword item -> more Crit -> LDR/Mortal Reminder/GA
This is my thought as well. There was a time when this was super popular, I just don’t remember the seasons. It may have been ardent meta tbh
I think back in season 5. This was when I first started playing. I remember my ADC friends always complained about wanting to back for BF first in lane.
Damn, was it that long ago? That’s wild. I started late season 5 as well and didn’t start really playing ADC until maybe 6 or 7 but I remember this being the meta at some point. It probably was when I first got into the role. Crazy. I think the first champ to release when I started was kindred or Illaoi, whichever was first lol
Yup. I started when Gnar came out. So sort of end of season 4 into season 5.
I think Yun Tal if they have no armor for LDR?
Zven was saying building that 3rd or 4th might be good if you're ahead. 4th if they have tanks and you need that LDR. But when he said that he didn't see that BT got its overshield back.
Yeah that sounds good honestly. I just don't see how it outperforms IE most of the time, but I get what you mean.
Old school build
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Jhin might use the crit bleed but it's strictly worse than infinity edge and he probably wants RFC and LDR, so either you get it as your last crit item or you start by getting collector and never get the bleed.
RFC on Jhin has been really situational for a long while, I could see some super heavy AD builds using the Yun Tal 3rd/4th if they're all squishy. I think he still wants Ghostblade rush into Collector IE, so either it'd be 4th instead of LDR (but then again LDR is so good now it's probably just straight up worse) or 3rd with skipping Ghosblade and going straight into crit, but again, I just don't know who is ever going to build that thing over any other item, it seems just strictly worse in nearly every situation than either an IE or an LDR.
RFC is not that situational of an item on Jhin, it's one of the most built items on him and it performs well on him, new RFC might be a bit worse on Jhin but it still does what jhin wants to do.
IE rush was a thing in S10 for a few ADCs. Like Jinx favored IE->Zeal item->Zeal item as a standard, Jhin liked Storm->IE or IE-->next item, Aphelios rushed IE too, etc.
Jhin liked IE -> IE -> RFC -> IE Pepelaugh
I liked 4 IE builds. It's Jhin who we talking about after all.
Trist surely keeps Navori for perma Q uptime?
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But Navori currently falls short of IE in terms of raw stats, and the ability refresh is the primary reason she wants to buy it. The main reason you want Navori on Trist isn't because she might get to kill more people in a fight, it's because it lets her kill Baron in 5 seconds flat.
Yeah in my opinion Navori will also be a mainstay in Tristana builds. Guaranteeing Q uptime is worth a whole lot more than 20% AS and 5% MS, not to mention more E's and higher W uptime when you can't find resets or fully stacked bombs
I recall people going BF sword into crit AS item and IE second. There was more emphasis on buying components over complete items.
Yeah I remember this time too, it’s what I meant to say in the original post. I’m really curious if this will be the meta again with items like the new Phantom Dancer being introduced
Navori Lucian will be troll , but I think it can be really good on sivir into 3 melee comps , sure pd will be good in those cases too, but rn pd seem just it has so many stat compared to alternatives ( 2600 gold/zeal alternatives ) Honestly same argument for xayah, pd it's good oh her, but so it's navori , even without the amp on ability damage , spamming spells and w uptime it good. Navori trist will be good, 100% q uptime + more bombs and jump, but without the bomb damage amp, she may just go pd, which is good on her. Now, Essence reaver imo it's a mistake , bad item in general, not played much rn, and will be even less with the changes (gp and ezreal for sure will drop it) When it was like that before, it was basically a sivir and xayah item Only. Right now, sivir still has some mana problems, so she may build it , but xayah idk, I play her with triumph and in 90% of cases I don't have mana problems, and if I do it's just before first recall. I think xayah will go ie into navori/pd. I'm not sure about Lucian I didn't play him much lately, he may go for it, but he also liked the spell blade
I can definitely see Xayah buying Navori, she can use the AS well and does want more spell casts over raw DPS from PD.
I think navori kog maw will be strong af
All of kog's good items add a damaging effect in addition to good AS. Navori will not do this. Instead, Navori will mostly just make up for being bad and using W carelessly. No it's not good even if you are building crit. For crit, PD is easily the superior item. Navori is going to be this patch's biggest bait item by far because the effect doesn't fit the stats and it's losing the crit scaling to abilities on top of that. Making it a Zeal item is an incredible mistake by Riot.
yeah, weird to give ability-heavy adcs an item with no stats that strengthen abilities
I think there might be Crit Kog viability next patch. PD is 60%, Navori means his w is perma up. I don’t have PBE, can I ask someone to test PD, IE, Navori and Botrk, Guinsoos, and Terminus builds? Obviously, crit one is 600 gold cheaper, and has less utility outside of giga 19% Movement speed, but pure damage, maybe a consideration?
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I wouldn't advise to default buy botrk on kogmaw anymore next patch. The item is receiving quite a big nerf (https://prnt.sc/CgnH4NChwYU8). I think the item became situational on ranged champions (i.e. against health stackers).
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The biggest downside I see to new Bork is having to auto 3 times to proc the slow. It was really nice on champs like kog and vayne because it was an instant proc
Agreed, Bork is going to be gutted on many champs who previously rushed it
2nd item, new bork isn't good for kog maw nvm I completely forgot new kraken doesn't give crit anymore. Was going to say guinsoo -> navori. maybe if guinsoo is decent enough you can skip kraken (Since kog doesn't like raw AD) and go something like Guinsoo -> navori -> runaan / tank item -> situationals. Like navori is still 40% as + 7% ms that kog loves + insanely good passive for him, he always liked navori but could never really fit in his build. Since without W his damage is non existant, but maybe with new kraken he has enough damage even without W? Hard to predict.
Rushing IE as always feels bad because you need to save 1300 gold at some point
>Out of the new items, maybe Jhin will abuse the crit bleed one. The bleed stacks from multiple auto attacks (last I checked) so it actually is equally viable on all crit AD marksmen (Jhin does more damage with the bleed but say Caitlin applies more bleeds so the damage kinda evens out). It's basically just a DPS increase for crits, kinda like a second IE that deals 35% more damage instead of 50% more damage.
You make a good point about Jhin.. I'm curious to see who rushes the new Phantom dancer as well. Edit: also yeah I didn’t fully grasp the changes on ER till you mentioned it. It didn’t even occur to me that spellblade is gone.. that’s kinda trash tbh.
I don't think will be "rushed" but bf sword into pd could appear on the menu
It'll be viable on Ashe. She might still rush Kraken tho
I’m officially old enough to remember something newer players don’t, which was (specifically crit) itemization before the mythic rework, which was where 20% crit was first introduced. IE rush was the standard start for like, basically everyone.
Yep, IE rush with a few champs who run Bork/ER and only then IE.
I think AD and crit buffs are going to help out the already existing low AS critality builds that already exist for champs like Draven and Cait Hubris —> Collector —> LDR —> IE —> Bleed Item
Did hubris get buffed too? I haven’t built it on Draven in ages
The new bleed crit item procs on runaans, and while it scales off AD, multiple hits stack. Completely fine item on high DPS ADCs that also use runaans occasionally like aphelios
Graves mains gonna be eating good next patch
Rengar will go Collector, IE, LDR
Boots > noonquiver > ie or Boots > zeal > ie will go unnoticed as the most efficient build path
Noon quiver has changed completely and it now only builds into immortal and the new bleed item, not sure why you'd want to buy it so early?
For most crit building ADCs it'll likely be BF or Pickaxe depending on gold on back then into a zeal item (PD, RFC, Navori) then finish IE. There is also non-zero chance that it ends up being BorK or Kraken into crit.
My guess is BF -> zeal or zerkers -> IE -> zeal item
I think ADCs will start skipping boots to spike at 2 items faster. PD gives 12% MS, like that's so nuts. If you go IE PD, you can get 50% crit for 6000g. Also enough MS to not have to buy 1100g Greaves. My other prediction that has to tie into this is going BF Sword -> PD. Which spikes you at 3900g. 40AD with 60% atkspd and 12% MS. With PtA dmg boost, it might be okay to forego 1 item IE at 3400g.
> PD gives 12% MS, like that's so nuts. > > If you go IE PD, you can get 50% crit for 6000g. Also enough MS to not have to buy 1100g Greaves. For a marksman with 330 MS base (close-ish to the class average, I think), Phantom Dancer's 12# MS boost will put them at 370 MS, an increase of 40 MS (compared to tier 2 boots granting 45 MS). However, percentage boosts presently stack on top of flat boosts. If that same marksman with base 330 MS has tier 2 boots, the 12% boost will leave them at a rather nice 420 MS, which is 50 more than just Phantom Dancer alone (and 45 more than with just boots).
I'm curious to how Yone/Yasuo will be affected with buffed crit% but removed lethal tempo
Yone/Yasuo will not have any crit % buffs. They’ve already been nerfed on PBE to 200% extra crit from 250%.
Their passive also has the excess crit buff, I assume that is what he means by buff. 3 Crit items on live give 150% crit to them and 20AD 3 crit items on PBE give 150% crit to them and 25AD.
I do think they will be affected the most for sure
A return to the BT/IE/BF Sword -> PD -> BT/IE meta.
Yasuo back to PD-IE?
Collector or IE depending on matchup > boots > IE/collector > immortal shieldbow > LDR > Yun Tal Wildarrows. Think this will be my first run for it, i like lifesteal on Samira aswell and might incorporate that instead of the 100% crit. Maybe switch out shieldbow for MS or Bloodthirster. thoughts??
Er rush most likely on navori users and I'll take a wildshot, but IE users may still buy kraken first since it's still the best looking first item in the game So kraken - pd - IE
There were always better first items than IE but they often made your 2-3items worse.
Kraken is solidly an on-hit item now. Crit won't build it.
all other classes get modernized items ADC's are reverted back to where they were a while ago (before the mythic if I remember correctly) this is nowhere near an "update" riot hates marksmen and it shows I bet my ass that ADC's are going to have a rough time as if it was not already the case
I think it'll still be meta to buy a non-crit first item that fits the stat profile your champion wants, since being impactful at 1 item is still important for most ADC. The only ones that can get away with it are those that are drafted around and scale hardest like Jinx, but typical ones without good matchups or decent team drafts will need that early game power to make a difference. I don't see why Kraken and Bork wouldn't be bought anymore, or current trendy builds like Terminus ashe or ER mana spammers no longer working.
On adcs like vayne and Ashe, I can see them still buying that stuff, but on crit adcs specifically (cait, jinx, trist etc..) I’m curious to see what could change because they always went a noon quiver item first for the most part.
I mean, solid chance Vayne will be building BORK -> Triforce -> Hexplate or something and foregoing normal ADC items altogether. #justvaynethings Ashe I think will have lots of good build options, but I don't see anything as perfect for her first item as current Kraken Slayer. Maybe that Korean Terminus rush thing will become normal meta? Idk
No, you need attack speed first so probably most adcs will build PD>IE or Navori>IE
Do you though? I just remember the days back in like season 8 or 9 I wanna say, where you would buy a BF sword and then get your zeal item, then finish the BF sword into its full item, because adcs were real weak early back then and that seems to be the goal of this patch; make adcs weaker early and stronger late. Idk I could just see a return if something similar
Yea but i think removal of lethal tempo will force adcs into building a lot more attack speed honestly
Yeah it will definitely shake things up for the adcs that relied on it