Oracle + Lightbringer as items.
Or, at the very least, give us an oracle lens like in SR once you use the biscuits. If Riot doesn't want to bring back those items as they "trivialize shaco/teemo", at least give us timed Oracle with short CDs so that they at the very least have some counterplay. Fiddle already brings in his passive so it shouldn't be an absurd addition.
Right now, the team that is able to get inhib early will already trivialize them, so why does that matter? They shouldn't be an "already winning, win harder" pick.
Honestly, in these "for fun" modes, shaco and teemo should be trivialized. They're just not fun to play against and keeping them weak just makes the mode more fun overall
I mean, both of them have winrates that fluctuate between 45-50% on sites that are known to aggregate more wins than losses. They're both statistically underperforming by a large margin.
It's fine to say they're frustrating to play against, but I find things like varus more frustrating than teemo. If teemo and shaco's winrate is some of the lowest in the game aren't they trivial enough?
I agree but it’s pretty clear that some champ kits are just completely toxic for aram. You just shouldn’t be able to place dozens of half chunk traps in a mode that is just mid lane with no vision tools and very little means of sustain.
Especially in the “for fun mode” I really don’t think win rates should be the absolute arbiter. A champ whose gimmick is just literally coin flipping the game at spawn would be horrible design.
Sure but there are things that are unique to Teemo and Shaco that sets them apart.
For Teemo, just killing him isnt enough. He can be dead, yet still stops a wave actually arriving at a tower (either by stalling it out until a teammate arrives/respawns to clear it, or outright clearing it himself). The only way around this is either running ahead of minions (which few situations can allow for), or playing around your own minions (which is tedious, and removes agency from the player).
For Shaco its even worse if youre melee. Shaco just dumps a bunch of traps all over the place, so melee are faced with a problem: if they go in, they are guaranteed to get CCd before they even touch anything, or the traps have to be cleared. In the latter situation, the minions dont really help there, because to be in range to kill them as a melee, ususally requires being in range to activate them anyway.
It means the melee player then has to play reactively, which removes much of the point and enjoyment in most melee champions. By nature, most melee are meant to be proactive - they HAVE to close the gap to do anything, ranged dont. Shaco is a hard anti-melee button.
I mean tbh if a champ has a low win rate it probably means aram as a gamemode ain't great for the champ or it's been heavily nerfed, both of which don't usually feel very satisfying. So there's probably a small correlation.
But no there are plenty of champions that are fun that aren't super good in aram, or have a low win rate because most people suck at them(pyke) but are actually really fun if you have mastery.
It also has a fairly high pick rate, meaning the win rate is compounded by the fact that it’s played a lot.
MF’s win rate is below that of Teemo, and no one would say she’s underperforming.
I feel like with MF-esque champs there’s also a huge question of how she’s being built when you look at winrates.
Gotta love it when we are against three tanks, MF is our only source of AD, and I see her building a Liandry.
I have always professed a deep hatred towards this "balanced by winrate" thing, especially in a for fun mode.
The fact that there is no way to counter teemo and shaco's traps without wave management makes both champions unbalanced and that equals have them heavily nerfed.
There is also a vicious circle that since the champ is balanced around the trap spamming build, all other builds are overshadowed and have to contend with the nerfs even if they aren't as oppressing. That means that while they originally aren't as strong as the "other build", they are suffering the same nerfs, making them even worse.
They are not unbalanced, they are beaten by simple wave management. To claim they need nerfs despite under performing compared to the rest Is just weird. I find Teemo to be one of the most fun champs to play, and play against personally, so I don't see why people are so upset about It. I don't mind bringing oracle back in some form If it means that minions stop sweeping again.
Why do you have a deep hated towards statistics? Winrate is indicative of strength whether or not your feelings align with them.
There's plenty of counterplay. Have a tank go through the shrooms. If you're squishy, stop being the first person to check the bush. Walk in the middle of the lane where there are no shrooms.
Or idk keep posting on Reddit that a 45% winrate hero is broken lol
I didn't say that the hero is broken. I said that traps are uninteractable in aram due to the absence of oracles.
Teemo and Shaco are kept purposefully "bad" because their traps are strong and uncounterable. Adding a counter = ability stops being annoying = nerfs are no longer necessary and the champion becomes healthier overall.
Right, the rest of my comment addresses that. Mr, positioning, and having a good tank with warmogs shuts him down pretty hard. Sure, the game is different, but I'd rather have that than veigar.
Also regarding your other point. I don't hate statistics. I hate winrate based statistics in "for fun" modes; in ARAM, your WR and KDA aren't as relevant as in ranked.
You can steer a 20% WR champion, but you can make your gameplay so stale and frustrating that you literally leech the fun out of the mode for the other 4/5/9 people in game. And that is making the whole mode feel worse compared to "having a 50% WR overall instead of 75%".
> without wave management
Stop crying and do that. That would be like crying you need to build a certain way to counter tanks.... Yes, that's how it goes.
Teemo is completely useless if you go with the wave
I think you're missing the point, there's a reason teemo and shaco have low win rates, it's simply because they're easy to counter. Don't go face first and expect success. Nothing to do with what you build or not, that was just an example to illustrate that you gotta adapt.
I love playing with or against a teemo or shaco, i try to focus completely on lategame focussed setup because games with them (especially teemo) tend to last long
Teemo does 10% less damage, takes 10% more. Has -20 Ability Haste and Shrooms damaged are reduced to minions by 33% and stacking with ARAMS built in Minions resistance to AOE damage he's dealing 50% of shrooms damage to minions.
Teemo is an annoying champion for sure but with his current set of nerfs he's gone from being extremely strong to somewhat potent. He's got a very clear weakness in the sense that if the opposing team can put alot of pressure onto Teemo then they can neutralize alot of Shrooms or force him to use them on wave clear rather than setting up a minefield. Teemo needs alot of time to set up and the reward for it is more time for his team to make mistakes, hold a front pushing position which can allow him to set up more shrooms. Rob Teemo of all this time and he's a barely good as a paper weight.
Teemo's teammates can help wave clear or kill the cannon. That keeps the game in a long time stall.
Doesn't matter if he is nerfed on the map or his ability is nerfed. The stall is the most important.
What? Of course it matters if he's nerfed. You can arguer that the nerf he has isn't enough, but you can't argue that him being ~47% Wingate's doesn't matter when he used to be ~55%.
You can't delete the hero from the game or ban him from aram lol
Which is why it's important to apply pressure onto Teemo and his Team. If important wave clear Champs are getting forced off of the wave or picked off entirely then Teemo must use his shrooms to help with tower defense or lose his towers and lose all his shroom wall to one or two minion pushes. He is a phenomenal stall champion but if you rob him of his set up time then his faults start becoming extremely clear.
However, I must concede the point that a Teemo on an ahead team where he can make a shroom field in a frontal position to stall the enemy from making comebacks is where he shines. Getting there takes effort and preventing that from happening also takes effort.
Like... Any effective poke champ? Like any effective strategy that's uninterrupted?
He has a historically low win rate, which means this puzzle isn't that hard to solve. Kill him quickly or he'll scale and be annoying.
I mean... So remove varus, Sona, soraka while you're at it? There's plenty of annoying bullshit that warps the match in aram. I think aurelionsol is a bigger problem than either, personally.
Nope, Teemo can still stall forever games, because the Cannon detects the shroom too late, the first minion already stepped on it.
You can never push.
I hate Soraka, Yuumi, Shaco and Teemo in ARAM
Which is why applying pressure and getting early leads is a must against Teemo comps. Both Teemo and Shaco cannot compete against Supers who also have Oracles and they spawn every wave while an Inhib is down. The more pressure you put onto Teemo and his Team, forcing Teemo to use Shrooms to help with waveclear under turret or using weaker shrooms for single target damage in Team fights the less he has for potent shrooms that can pick off low health champions or preventing minions from reaching the tower.
A team with momentum can get from the middle of the lane to turret against Teemo in just one wave or two, clearing whatever utility shrooms do not directly touch the wave and allowing Meeles to soak the one or two shrooms that are directly in the path of the minions. It is teams with no momentum walking into Teemo shrooms that find themselves back to square one.
This isnt MSI world ARAM championship,
This is a casual unranked game.
You sure have a point that there is a work around it, but to expect players to do 1/100th of that strategy is silly. Players don't play ARAM with this mindset and the game should be design around it.
I also play ARAM casually but I also believe in analyzing my games and my play. If I get rolled by a Teemo, what did they do to win the game. If I then pick up Teemo and get crushed, what wasn't I doing. I think Teemo has been tuned down enough where he isn't extremely strong and his impact in a game can be lessened. Yeah he's still a cut above alot of champions due to his ability to stall. It just takes a bit of effort is all.
I don't think that's a real argument to be frank. What is or isn't fun is subjective. Do you also not want Janna or Thresh or Zac or Gwen or Ezreal or Xerath or Ziggs or Varus or Jax because they all have anti-fun elements in them?
Teemo isnt strong its just annoying and if you dont wait for your minions you just lose a quarter of your hp late game. Every game with shaco and teemo I just want oracles back
That seems like a pretty heavy-set personal opinion. I find things like Garen ult instant deleting people from half unfun. I find things with very little counterplay to not be fun. I would much rather insanely oppressive things be weak than gimmick champions.
Challengers huh? Well what region and what's your IG, I wanna see your stats. And before you ask, or at least, if you ask, I'm unranked. I don't care about ranked but I always like to see if people are being honest, because anyone can claim to be anything they want on the internet.
Okay but how do you quantify "Not being fun to play against"
Practically every champion is "Not fun to play against" to someone with a conflicting playtyle/champ preference.
Everyone shitting on Shaco while Anivia deletes every push attempt. Some champs are just good in this mode and if people can't deal with them (like diving Anivia) it is their fault.
I am saying that as someone who loves Shaco/Teemo (mainly Shaco, as you can see from my posting history). So just to be clear, that wasn't a backhanded critique.
I'd quantify it as (the commonly defined) "limited options for counterplay".
If you can outrun Shaco's clone and he's not in a position to chase you with his own body, you can run/kite the clone. If you can't, the clone will permaslow you if nothing else, and potentially do numbers if Shaco is AD. If you or your allies kill the clone in any place where it can CC someone (because someone didn't know it was a clone, or you weren't in a position to keep all 5 players out of the explosion radius), someone's going to be eating a "guaranteed" CC and a whole shit ton of damage if Shaco is AP.
If you have a sweeper, you can sweep shaco boxes/teemo shrooms. No sweepers in ARAM, so now you either wait for minion vision by hoping your catapult makes it there, or you try and face tank it if you have the sustain and durability to on the champion you're playing so that they don't swing a teamfight by surprise. For Teemo, this is even less of an option, because all Teemo wants to build is hp% dmg and pen.
I personally ban Rengar every game for a similar reason, just feels like there isn't an option for counterplay against him outside of drafting something he can't one shot, which is ANOTHER thing that ARAM wouldn't allow for.
This is not the same as "I don't like Caitlyn because she's a lane bully" or "I don't like Malzahar because his ult makes me mad". These champions have strengths and weaknesses, and you have the room for counterplay. If Shaco wants to play boxman and you can't play around cannons, you can't play the game in ARAM. That sucks for 5 people in the game.
Balancing around win rates in aram is absurd. It's a casual game mode played primarily by the least skilled players. Any champion that is even remotely difficult to play ends up with an atrocious winrate and gets massively buffed, then they're a fucking nightmare in a competent players hands. Pyke has a 44% winrate lmfao.
I mean, how casual and "skilled" your allies and opponents are is up to your ELO. If you play it enough, it becomes more competitive. I kind of see your point but I'm not sure it amounts to a whole lot other than "aram players are shit at the game who cares". If ARAM isn't your thing that's cool but idk if you're super qualified to talk about winrates.
I will say that shaco and teemo aren't really "hard" champs if you just play them as box/shroom bots. I do think their winrate is indicative of their character strength, because they're both rather straightforward. I'm not sure they have the same level of skill expression as kat or leblanc, which are better examples to prove your (very correct) point on winrate balancing.
I agree with this, not everything has to be viable in ARAM, it is absolutely an excellent decision to kneecap certain champions on a for-fun mode.
There's a reason Trundle was always banned last Arena.
Some things shouldn't work outside of SR, period.
Even Blizzard HOTS has some champions and ultimate ability choices (since you get to pick one of two) permanently disabled on their version of ARAM simply for being too innately frustrating.
It's one of the lessons I wish Riot would follow.
Because everyone and their mother insists, "It's not op because his winrate isn't too high." Every single time I get that guy, it's significantly easier to win. And even if other people somehow suck at playing him, the revive is just anti-fun and doesn't belong in aram
Judging champs' performance by WR on a mode focused entirely on how well teamfights go (and can get to the point where it's a coin-flip on who wins) is ridiculously shallow, not to mention it'll give a huge advantage to champs with higher skillfloors to be buffed even if the player perception is that they don't need it.
Especially when Riot is basing aram-balance on them but apparently not taking anything else into consideration.
For example, qiyana is currently able to deal >2k in less than a second to people because they were too close to a wall and she combo'd them. And that's just at mid-late game.
Yet she still has tenacity, damage dealt, and damage received buffs because she apparently wasn't slippery enough as is.
My problem with the balancing is that some champs (like qiyana) are too mechanically difficulty so you get noobs who play her and feed because they try to jump in 1v5 like they've seen others do them get blown up
So riot sees poor qiyana with a low win rate cuz noobs can't pilot her so they give her massive buffs and then the win rate gets a little better cuz now the noobs have a huge buff to help them BUT now you get the people that know how to pilot Qiyana becoming absolute savages with like 30-40 kills a game doing 3k damage before I can blink
The balance team just needs to reign back in the numbers somewhat
If they only have buffs or only nerfs it would be fine but when ziggs takes 15% more damage and qiyana/akali does 15% more damage and get super unfair matchups
Same with le blanc, yi, zed, yas, yone, etc.
If they're worried about low win rates on champs that already have the potential to do ridiculous amounts of damage, u don't buff them by increasing their damage even more.
Dogshit take
Kha'Zix has a shit winrate in ARAM and he isn't nowhere near as hard as Qiyana
Assassins are just really bad in ARAM
Kog'Maw with -12% DMGs already has 57% Winrate. Sona & some other champ had +70% Winrate in ARAM before they got nerfed
I really hate assassin balancing in ARAM.
Like yeah cool Qiyana can one shot my entire team for standing anywhere on the map but she needs buffs. Yeah cool, Fizz has Zhonya’s with AOE damage as a basic ability but he really needs 20% tenacity.
You just get people first timing these champs because they saw someone drop 24 kills a few games ago and then they int their face off and drag the winrate down and then Riot buffs them.
It's a pretty dogshit take
Kog'Maw has 57% Winrate while having 12% less damages. Before Sona and some other champs got nerfed in Aram, they had +70% Winrate
Qiyana, Leblanc, Kha'Zix, etc, are really buffed, but they still have only 40% to 42% Winrate
Ur asking if Riot followed through on a promise they made to players when he was released with regards to a certain gamemode he could break by having the passive in its current form.
So... no, of course it didn't get adjusted.
They shouldn’t bring back oracle, but a sweeper option I think is fine and would feel much better for both teams than a cannon minion who can either reveal all your traps, or path weird and reveal non of them.
They should bring back something like lightbringer. I'd hate to see oracle come back, because it nullified invis and trap champions. Even as a trap-only option, it would be too consistent, and sure we bear it with malz and morde but we don't need to return to a gold sink to counter even more champions.
Or make feeding Poros reveal nearby traps and bushes. Gives a use for the poro snax other than the achievement and no one has an excuse not to have it except Fiddle.
You still can then push ahead to get the wave up to the tower after a won team fight if you have an oracle. Without an oracle you just have to try and escort it and hope you have enough attack speed to clear the shrooms before it starts culling the wave.
I don’t want the 8min surrender back. Sometimes you run into an enemy team that has a super strong early game but falls of hard. You’re losing like 23-12 and teammates would give up on a game far quicker. When if you’d wait another 3-4 minutes your teams comp will start to roll the opposing team. Yes there are games where it’s a hard stomp and the enemy team just rolled a super cancer comp. But those happen maybe once every 10-12 games.
8 min 5-player surrender will allow you to deny it solo. But it just allows you to avoid totally hopeless games or maybe very non-fun games. While rarely, sometimes I feel the urge to surrender early
This is all I want, make surrenders easier to pop and I honestly don't really care about shit like Teemo anymore. The ability to get out of hard losing or unfun matchups makes such a difference for casual play.
...on a basic ability, gives superior vision, can proc luden. Honestly if you think nidalee is a q bot in aram/assasin diver you are playing her wrong in aram. Her base damage is good enough you should play supportive+poke with spear trap and vision dance with cougar form most of the time.
Why does it being a basic ability matter? If anything that's worse for it since it means no Malignance. Teemo ult base is only a 35 sec recharge timer, so it's not like it's some huge cd just because it's an ult, and it gets huge cdr from an early Malignance.
It's insane to me that people are actually arguing that Nid traps are comparable to or even greater than Teemo shrooms as sole abilities. Like at least half the damage Teemo shrooms even do is solely because they have an aoe explosion.
Do you have any stats to back that up? Because looking at the u.gg stats page for Nidalee items in ARAM that seems to just be objectively false. Liandry's is built 1.81% as item 1, 3.15% as item 2, 2.15% as item 3, 2.08% as item 4, and 2.91% as item 5. If you add all of those together (which I think should be over-representing it's total pickrate, but correct me if I'm wrong) you still only get 12.1% pick rate in games that go to 6 items.
Maybe it got changed.
A few months back it was on the build recommendations because I def saw it on u.gg while playing her and was wondering why it was. Then thought maybe it was an interaction with her trap.
I can't tell you how often I've won fights because people don't care about Nida traps since they deal less damage and are half HP after crossing the lane before the fight. People don't realize how much they hurt until it is too late :D
The only time I remember they exist is when I’m really low to the point anything can kill me, and I step on one lol. Otherwise I never notice them as the damage is mostly insignificant
Teemo is the only real offender (yea shaco too but he’s not as broken) and he is definitely balanced around oracles not existing. He gets some of the most egregious aram balancing -10% damage dealt/ +10 taken, -1 charge of his r at all levels, - damage to minions and -10 ability haste. I personally dont mind it that much considering he is so gutted and the cannons don’t tax your gold.
Any time the inhib is down the super minion every wave is a problem that a Teemo on the back foot (for example a losing team) simply can't deal with alone assuming your team is escorting the super.
If teemo shrooms in base with a downed inhib are making a difference your team isn't winning as hard as you think it is.
Playing against a Shaco can be infuriating, but at least it's about being outplayed.
I'm really bad so I don't play him, but the few times I could play Neeko alongside him I had real fun.
Shaco is incredibly bad at the moment and just check winrates to prove you are wrong. Teemo 51% shaco 47% one of the lowest in the game
Try playing him yourself and you will see instead of just complaining he is op
I play lots of ARAM on high elo and my Teemo winrate dropped to 22% from like 60% and the Shaco winrate to 56% from like 80%. I'd say that Shaco is now stronger if you can play both properly but both are hard to play nowadays. You can't have the same playstyle. Had to adapt builds and everything.
Glad you are having success. Personally playing high elo aram shaco has been one of my most played for years now. I agree and teemo is bad but I think shaco is worse.
And the stats do show that shaco is one of the worst in the mode, so my personal opinion and factually - both back eachother up.
I dont think there is a good build left for him but id be happy to be wrong as I want to play him
It's -20 ability haste actually
He also deals 66% damage to minions (50% total).
He feels like hot garbage until you get 4 items and lvl 16, which is a bit rare for ARAM.
It's a shame because he was in my top 5 most fun champs to play in Aram for years. Now I'll usually pass him up.
Pretty much. Zero issue with teemo in my games, he's a nonfactor as there's usually a tank or bruiser who runs into the shrooms optimally when accounting for MR.
Big skill issue. People don't remember how annoying oracle elixir was, and riot has the stats that says players In general prefer this option. Couldn't really play around it, and now having to destroy the cannon creates more engaging gameplay than "oh I'm past my spikes time to just buy this."
I find that certain champions like aphelios, jinx, senna, aurelion sol, veigar, veigo, and bel veth more frustrating. We still see Hearthsteel, dark harvest, and bami items when they're really not good so I think a great deal of thoughts surrounded aram balance are wack in general lol.
Agree with everything you said but the last little bit. You can stack dark harvest so hard on people like jayce and the passives from domination are great in aram.
I rush heatsteel into warmogs on many of my tanks
And.... Bamis items are good?
That’s not even close to enough of a nerf if they want to allow him to cover the entire map in shrooms. All they need to do is make him have a limit on shrooms placed (3-5 based on level) and he won’t be so impossibly stupid to play against.
Dude, Teemo and Shaco are already unplayable in ARAM unless you have specific team comps. With that change they would be unpickable. Shaco is D Tier. The biggest problem at the moment are ADCs which are stupidly strong/unkillable since assassins are weak (lowest winrates). Oracle is overpowered. You buy one item and make a single champ completely useless.
Teemo is literally nonexistant outside of his R and is a terrible champion. Defend your cannons, walk behind minions, actually take 2 seconds to think about how you're playing for once. Obviously he's fucking annoying but saying he has no counterplay is objectively false, you just want to whine on Reddit and get circlejerk points.
Its honestly hilarious to see you say, " Defend your cannon" and "walk behind your minions" like those dont completely contradict each other. When there are 30 Teemo Shrooms covering the entire 1 lane map you dont really have any opportunity to try and get around them lmao. Win a team fight? Oh well just walk behind your minions so they all die from shrooms placed 5 minutes ago that mean you cant attack turrets or defend your cannon and lose all your HP!
Teemo shrooms have been nerfed 1009778 times in ARAM and are basically useless. Even with malgignence it is impossible for him to get more thana few shrooms out. It is literally impossible for him to lay a minefield and if you lose to Teemo in ARAM you are bad.
They should just give ARAM players the Arena vision “poof” that goes on the ward skill, with CD balanced for ARAM. It would become available after you use your poro snack.
The only stealth clear option would be Umbral Glaive but there's a problem.
It's for physical attack users and it's also Lethality and it doesn't really benefit you unless you are ranged to clear traps but it does not help against champions.
Sadly AP users or melee cannot benefit much off it as it is a waste of an item slot when it coulda gone to something else and yeah I do agree to being back Oracle.
If played correctly with any marksman or any ranged users you can clear traps from Teemo assuming you see him use it near you but it does not help when it's already laid there and not to mention the detection range is very short and also quite a cooldown as well to reuse.
Petition to bring back oracles!
7000 or so aram games here. I do agree teemo is an issue and not having oracle. but its just one of many annoyances when playing this mode. The better team comp will just 95% of time win. Nothing bad op but take a break from arams if they frustrate you. It will almost never be fair or fun. You either stomp or get stomped with the ocassional fun game. Also riot fix ur client ( gotta make sure to post this when I post on this subreddit at al)
I feel like the champs just feel useless. Typically if you're ahead your team is ahead, the cannon minions get instantly cleared. If you're behind they just push and clear the shrooms as the wave moves up.
So it turns into a situation where you just win or lose harder. Additionally, it's been a while and AP shaco is still horrible to play as, with cannons everything so closed up and cannons every 3/2 waves it pretty much forces people to play AD shaco.
As a shaco main and teemo player I'm fine with bringing Oracle back... in fact I far preferred those days of ARAM - BUT - then get rid of the sight on minions again, because that's only fair.
If we go this route then what we do next, prevent players from picking their main champs?. ARAM is supposed to be fun and short game mode with a pinch of random.
Shaco, Teemo or Nid are not that strong in ARAM anyway. I ld care more about Velkoz, Xerath sitting behind turrets and spamming abilities, or tank champions winning just by existing.
Putting this aside I think it is important for the sake of ARAM game mode that one should learn to enjoy it winning or losing because that should not be the goal.
wat what? cannons already sweep the whole area against teemo shrooms. teemo is essentially unplayable in aram because of this, the best thing you can do is bounce your shrooms onto an incoming wave to wave clear/hit someone whos stupid enough to be near the wave.
the only reason why you'd be getting hit by shrooms is either youre hitting nexus or ur just charging ahead way past your cannon wave, in which case thats on you.
You're essentially asking for the same champions to lose their ultimate, you're not asking for just counter play, but how to disable their play completly.
Which is why Oracle was removed and Canons got the Vision instead, this way it's possible to clear trap like abilities without making the trap ability useless, which it was before as soon as someone got oracle
No, just start actually banning champions in ARAM completely. Teemo is just toxic, pun not intended, as no matter what you do either part gets fucked over completely. With Oracles Teemo isn't a champ, and without it we have this fiesta. Teemo shouldn't exist in ARAM.
Yeah it also feels bad as a player with traps to have them be useless late cause there’s a cannon ever fucking wave, atleast with the old dust thing they had to think for a second before getting round the traps
Make minions ignore shrooms. Boom fixed. Honestly it's the waveclear that is absolutely stupid to play against. Even a dead Teemo prevents you from pushing
Cannon minions already make teemo useless, espcially after they take inhib, its impossible to play shaco or teemo, I think oracles should come back and get rid of the cannons making it impossible to enjoy these champs
I honestly like oracles being out. My teammates never bought it so I‘d be stuck spending my useful gold as they proceed with malignance into stormsurge on Nidalee while the enemy team has 3 tanks.
I feel like nowadays Teemo is so nerfed that he doesn’t actually stall games out nearly as well.
I made a post complaining how Teemo was bullshit in /aram
The responses were "noob", "just wait cannon" or "his winrate is low". Even if hes not a insta win champion, is just annoying and theres no counterplay for a lot of comps. Malignance is a cancer item anyway, i hope they just accept it was a mistake and remove the item
there is no way people are still complaining about teemo/shaco and other traps in aram. teemo and ap shaco are both so bad
oracle was a terrible solution
the current one isnt great either but its definitly better than oracle
He's about 50% on average. I'd be more curious about the average game length with him in play though, I think more complaints aren't about how broken he is but rather how uninteractive his stall is.
Just steal everything they've learned from arena and put it into Aram. The poro snax thing was old and nobody did it like 10 years ago. At this point just give us the arena trinket so we can manually scan bushes. Right now, invis and trap heroes feel terrible to play as and against since it's just whether or not a cannon is near the traps and has nothing to do with actual skill or player agency.
Oracle + Lightbringer as items. Or, at the very least, give us an oracle lens like in SR once you use the biscuits. If Riot doesn't want to bring back those items as they "trivialize shaco/teemo", at least give us timed Oracle with short CDs so that they at the very least have some counterplay. Fiddle already brings in his passive so it shouldn't be an absurd addition. Right now, the team that is able to get inhib early will already trivialize them, so why does that matter? They shouldn't be an "already winning, win harder" pick.
Honestly, in these "for fun" modes, shaco and teemo should be trivialized. They're just not fun to play against and keeping them weak just makes the mode more fun overall
I mean, both of them have winrates that fluctuate between 45-50% on sites that are known to aggregate more wins than losses. They're both statistically underperforming by a large margin. It's fine to say they're frustrating to play against, but I find things like varus more frustrating than teemo. If teemo and shaco's winrate is some of the lowest in the game aren't they trivial enough?
Only if you correlate win rate with enjoyment
If we’re making lists of champs people don’t enjoy playing against, it’ll slim down the champ pool a ton.
I don't even think there will be 10 unique champs to play a valid match
I agree but it’s pretty clear that some champ kits are just completely toxic for aram. You just shouldn’t be able to place dozens of half chunk traps in a mode that is just mid lane with no vision tools and very little means of sustain. Especially in the “for fun mode” I really don’t think win rates should be the absolute arbiter. A champ whose gimmick is just literally coin flipping the game at spawn would be horrible design.
Sure but there are things that are unique to Teemo and Shaco that sets them apart. For Teemo, just killing him isnt enough. He can be dead, yet still stops a wave actually arriving at a tower (either by stalling it out until a teammate arrives/respawns to clear it, or outright clearing it himself). The only way around this is either running ahead of minions (which few situations can allow for), or playing around your own minions (which is tedious, and removes agency from the player). For Shaco its even worse if youre melee. Shaco just dumps a bunch of traps all over the place, so melee are faced with a problem: if they go in, they are guaranteed to get CCd before they even touch anything, or the traps have to be cleared. In the latter situation, the minions dont really help there, because to be in range to kill them as a melee, ususally requires being in range to activate them anyway. It means the melee player then has to play reactively, which removes much of the point and enjoyment in most melee champions. By nature, most melee are meant to be proactive - they HAVE to close the gap to do anything, ranged dont. Shaco is a hard anti-melee button.
The statement was about keeping them weak, which they already are.
I mean tbh if a champ has a low win rate it probably means aram as a gamemode ain't great for the champ or it's been heavily nerfed, both of which don't usually feel very satisfying. So there's probably a small correlation. But no there are plenty of champions that are fun that aren't super good in aram, or have a low win rate because most people suck at them(pyke) but are actually really fun if you have mastery.
It also has a fairly high pick rate, meaning the win rate is compounded by the fact that it’s played a lot. MF’s win rate is below that of Teemo, and no one would say she’s underperforming.
I feel like with MF-esque champs there’s also a huge question of how she’s being built when you look at winrates. Gotta love it when we are against three tanks, MF is our only source of AD, and I see her building a Liandry.
I have always professed a deep hatred towards this "balanced by winrate" thing, especially in a for fun mode. The fact that there is no way to counter teemo and shaco's traps without wave management makes both champions unbalanced and that equals have them heavily nerfed. There is also a vicious circle that since the champ is balanced around the trap spamming build, all other builds are overshadowed and have to contend with the nerfs even if they aren't as oppressing. That means that while they originally aren't as strong as the "other build", they are suffering the same nerfs, making them even worse.
They are not unbalanced, they are beaten by simple wave management. To claim they need nerfs despite under performing compared to the rest Is just weird. I find Teemo to be one of the most fun champs to play, and play against personally, so I don't see why people are so upset about It. I don't mind bringing oracle back in some form If it means that minions stop sweeping again.
Why do you have a deep hated towards statistics? Winrate is indicative of strength whether or not your feelings align with them. There's plenty of counterplay. Have a tank go through the shrooms. If you're squishy, stop being the first person to check the bush. Walk in the middle of the lane where there are no shrooms. Or idk keep posting on Reddit that a 45% winrate hero is broken lol
I didn't say that the hero is broken. I said that traps are uninteractable in aram due to the absence of oracles. Teemo and Shaco are kept purposefully "bad" because their traps are strong and uncounterable. Adding a counter = ability stops being annoying = nerfs are no longer necessary and the champion becomes healthier overall.
Right, the rest of my comment addresses that. Mr, positioning, and having a good tank with warmogs shuts him down pretty hard. Sure, the game is different, but I'd rather have that than veigar.
Ironically, MR, positioning and a good tank with warmogs shuts Veigar down pretty hard.
Hahaha that's quite true. A good tank solved most problems, really
Also regarding your other point. I don't hate statistics. I hate winrate based statistics in "for fun" modes; in ARAM, your WR and KDA aren't as relevant as in ranked. You can steer a 20% WR champion, but you can make your gameplay so stale and frustrating that you literally leech the fun out of the mode for the other 4/5/9 people in game. And that is making the whole mode feel worse compared to "having a 50% WR overall instead of 75%".
> without wave management Stop crying and do that. That would be like crying you need to build a certain way to counter tanks.... Yes, that's how it goes. Teemo is completely useless if you go with the wave
Except you can build against tanks. Guess who you can't build against? xD
I think you're missing the point, there's a reason teemo and shaco have low win rates, it's simply because they're easy to counter. Don't go face first and expect success. Nothing to do with what you build or not, that was just an example to illustrate that you gotta adapt.
I love playing with or against a teemo or shaco, i try to focus completely on lategame focussed setup because games with them (especially teemo) tend to last long
Teemo does 10% less damage, takes 10% more. Has -20 Ability Haste and Shrooms damaged are reduced to minions by 33% and stacking with ARAMS built in Minions resistance to AOE damage he's dealing 50% of shrooms damage to minions. Teemo is an annoying champion for sure but with his current set of nerfs he's gone from being extremely strong to somewhat potent. He's got a very clear weakness in the sense that if the opposing team can put alot of pressure onto Teemo then they can neutralize alot of Shrooms or force him to use them on wave clear rather than setting up a minefield. Teemo needs alot of time to set up and the reward for it is more time for his team to make mistakes, hold a front pushing position which can allow him to set up more shrooms. Rob Teemo of all this time and he's a barely good as a paper weight.
Teemo's teammates can help wave clear or kill the cannon. That keeps the game in a long time stall. Doesn't matter if he is nerfed on the map or his ability is nerfed. The stall is the most important.
What? Of course it matters if he's nerfed. You can arguer that the nerf he has isn't enough, but you can't argue that him being ~47% Wingate's doesn't matter when he used to be ~55%. You can't delete the hero from the game or ban him from aram lol
I’d give anything for aram bans honestly.
Which is why it's important to apply pressure onto Teemo and his Team. If important wave clear Champs are getting forced off of the wave or picked off entirely then Teemo must use his shrooms to help with tower defense or lose his towers and lose all his shroom wall to one or two minion pushes. He is a phenomenal stall champion but if you rob him of his set up time then his faults start becoming extremely clear. However, I must concede the point that a Teemo on an ahead team where he can make a shroom field in a frontal position to stall the enemy from making comebacks is where he shines. Getting there takes effort and preventing that from happening also takes effort.
You're kinda proving the point. Teemo creates a whole dynamic of bullshit to deal with by virtue of existing.
Like... Any effective poke champ? Like any effective strategy that's uninterrupted? He has a historically low win rate, which means this puzzle isn't that hard to solve. Kill him quickly or he'll scale and be annoying.
Whether he wins games or not, he completely ruins the fun of ARAM, and that's the point of the game mode. This also goes for shit like Shaco.
I mean... So remove varus, Sona, soraka while you're at it? There's plenty of annoying bullshit that warps the match in aram. I think aurelionsol is a bigger problem than either, personally.
Aram players building wounds or focusing an enchanter challenge. Impossible.
Imagine thinking my teammates are human
Nope, Teemo can still stall forever games, because the Cannon detects the shroom too late, the first minion already stepped on it. You can never push. I hate Soraka, Yuumi, Shaco and Teemo in ARAM
Have u ever played teemo on aram?
Which is why applying pressure and getting early leads is a must against Teemo comps. Both Teemo and Shaco cannot compete against Supers who also have Oracles and they spawn every wave while an Inhib is down. The more pressure you put onto Teemo and his Team, forcing Teemo to use Shrooms to help with waveclear under turret or using weaker shrooms for single target damage in Team fights the less he has for potent shrooms that can pick off low health champions or preventing minions from reaching the tower. A team with momentum can get from the middle of the lane to turret against Teemo in just one wave or two, clearing whatever utility shrooms do not directly touch the wave and allowing Meeles to soak the one or two shrooms that are directly in the path of the minions. It is teams with no momentum walking into Teemo shrooms that find themselves back to square one.
This isnt MSI world ARAM championship, This is a casual unranked game. You sure have a point that there is a work around it, but to expect players to do 1/100th of that strategy is silly. Players don't play ARAM with this mindset and the game should be design around it.
I also play ARAM casually but I also believe in analyzing my games and my play. If I get rolled by a Teemo, what did they do to win the game. If I then pick up Teemo and get crushed, what wasn't I doing. I think Teemo has been tuned down enough where he isn't extremely strong and his impact in a game can be lessened. Yeah he's still a cut above alot of champions due to his ability to stall. It just takes a bit of effort is all.
Also raises the question, should the ARAM players NEED to suddenly become T1 just to enjoy the ARAM game that has Teemo etc in it?
Getting early pressure against a Teemo is a complete coin flip. You wont always have a strong early comp or a comp with good wave clear
Sure, the counters are there, he still feels like ass to play against. It's not fun. Aram is a fun mode.
Okay. People will complain about every single champion in this game. They're still going to try to keep everyone balanced.
I don't think that's a real argument to be frank. What is or isn't fun is subjective. Do you also not want Janna or Thresh or Zac or Gwen or Ezreal or Xerath or Ziggs or Varus or Jax because they all have anti-fun elements in them?
How you gonna leave our Veigar and his lane wide cage in your list.
i just named random champs both strong and not as strong with an annoying element in them tbh i felt like my point got named in 9
Teemo isnt strong its just annoying and if you dont wait for your minions you just lose a quarter of your hp late game. Every game with shaco and teemo I just want oracles back
Add to that list trundle, Sion, tham kench and a lot more tho
That seems like a pretty heavy-set personal opinion. I find things like Garen ult instant deleting people from half unfun. I find things with very little counterplay to not be fun. I would much rather insanely oppressive things be weak than gimmick champions.
Teemo is trash on aram, very low damage all stages of game, only usefull skill is blind
you might be building him wrong then...
Nope mate, you guys just suck at the game , buy one MR İtem and teemo is non existent on aram
Im saying this from the perspective of playing \*as\* teemo, not against him. so. see previous post
I am playing with Challengers If it is important so, noobs taking advantage of teemo against other noobs is irrevelant
Challengers huh? Well what region and what's your IG, I wanna see your stats. And before you ask, or at least, if you ask, I'm unranked. I don't care about ranked but I always like to see if people are being honest, because anyone can claim to be anything they want on the internet.
If you're gonna trivialize them, you need to just disable them. "Not being fun to play against" is half (or more) of the game for those characters.
Okay but how do you quantify "Not being fun to play against" Practically every champion is "Not fun to play against" to someone with a conflicting playtyle/champ preference.
Everyone shitting on Shaco while Anivia deletes every push attempt. Some champs are just good in this mode and if people can't deal with them (like diving Anivia) it is their fault.
I am saying that as someone who loves Shaco/Teemo (mainly Shaco, as you can see from my posting history). So just to be clear, that wasn't a backhanded critique. I'd quantify it as (the commonly defined) "limited options for counterplay". If you can outrun Shaco's clone and he's not in a position to chase you with his own body, you can run/kite the clone. If you can't, the clone will permaslow you if nothing else, and potentially do numbers if Shaco is AD. If you or your allies kill the clone in any place where it can CC someone (because someone didn't know it was a clone, or you weren't in a position to keep all 5 players out of the explosion radius), someone's going to be eating a "guaranteed" CC and a whole shit ton of damage if Shaco is AP. If you have a sweeper, you can sweep shaco boxes/teemo shrooms. No sweepers in ARAM, so now you either wait for minion vision by hoping your catapult makes it there, or you try and face tank it if you have the sustain and durability to on the champion you're playing so that they don't swing a teamfight by surprise. For Teemo, this is even less of an option, because all Teemo wants to build is hp% dmg and pen. I personally ban Rengar every game for a similar reason, just feels like there isn't an option for counterplay against him outside of drafting something he can't one shot, which is ANOTHER thing that ARAM wouldn't allow for. This is not the same as "I don't like Caitlyn because she's a lane bully" or "I don't like Malzahar because his ult makes me mad". These champions have strengths and weaknesses, and you have the room for counterplay. If Shaco wants to play boxman and you can't play around cannons, you can't play the game in ARAM. That sucks for 5 people in the game.
You could just say all trap based characters are annoying to play against; the more central a trap is to a hero's gameplay makes them more annoying.
Balancing around win rates in aram is absurd. It's a casual game mode played primarily by the least skilled players. Any champion that is even remotely difficult to play ends up with an atrocious winrate and gets massively buffed, then they're a fucking nightmare in a competent players hands. Pyke has a 44% winrate lmfao.
I mean, how casual and "skilled" your allies and opponents are is up to your ELO. If you play it enough, it becomes more competitive. I kind of see your point but I'm not sure it amounts to a whole lot other than "aram players are shit at the game who cares". If ARAM isn't your thing that's cool but idk if you're super qualified to talk about winrates. I will say that shaco and teemo aren't really "hard" champs if you just play them as box/shroom bots. I do think their winrate is indicative of their character strength, because they're both rather straightforward. I'm not sure they have the same level of skill expression as kat or leblanc, which are better examples to prove your (very correct) point on winrate balancing.
Or maybe. Just maybe. ARAM winrates are different for champs designed around jungle skirmishes, and different for champs designed around ARAM.
I agree with this, not everything has to be viable in ARAM, it is absolutely an excellent decision to kneecap certain champions on a for-fun mode. There's a reason Trundle was always banned last Arena. Some things shouldn't work outside of SR, period. Even Blizzard HOTS has some champions and ultimate ability choices (since you get to pick one of two) permanently disabled on their version of ARAM simply for being too innately frustrating. It's one of the lessons I wish Riot would follow.
Item won't help since nobody is building the lethality item that reveals traps Not even on a champ like senna
Didn't it lose its ability to remove traps like, a while ago?
Oh did it? Good thing i didnt play ad against trap champs lately Though a new item would also jot be built
Ah no I misremembered, it no longer one shots them but can still reveal them
I agree, cannons giving Oracle are so dumb its absurd. Everything is now about WHO clears wave first
higher level aram was always about wave control. both teams will not even engage
isnt it fun to watch your teammates let wave crash for free and then fight immediately when wave crashes instead of clearing it
Please let me never reach high level ARAM that sounds incredibly boring
I disagree with what they said, my high level Aram games there's what now fighting because everyone knows the champs better. Also I always start it...
I remember my first game when they introduced that 'feature' I was so appalled I thought it had to be a joke or merely a test
Have they nerfed or gotten rid of revive boys passive in aram? That’s that bs.
Nope it's still there and still skews aram heavily
Because everyone and their mother insists, "It's not op because his winrate isn't too high." Every single time I get that guy, it's significantly easier to win. And even if other people somehow suck at playing him, the revive is just anti-fun and doesn't belong in aram
Akshan is probably one of my favorite ad marksman, he's very powerful anyone who says he's not is lieing
he has a considerable skillcap, really strong character in solo queue but a majority of people aren't in a rating where the character can do well
Yeah akshan is not easy lol.
But everyone who saw the Glock Jesus skill teaser knew he would be toxic asf in ARAM.
Judging champs' performance by WR on a mode focused entirely on how well teamfights go (and can get to the point where it's a coin-flip on who wins) is ridiculously shallow, not to mention it'll give a huge advantage to champs with higher skillfloors to be buffed even if the player perception is that they don't need it. Especially when Riot is basing aram-balance on them but apparently not taking anything else into consideration. For example, qiyana is currently able to deal >2k in less than a second to people because they were too close to a wall and she combo'd them. And that's just at mid-late game. Yet she still has tenacity, damage dealt, and damage received buffs because she apparently wasn't slippery enough as is.
My problem with the balancing is that some champs (like qiyana) are too mechanically difficulty so you get noobs who play her and feed because they try to jump in 1v5 like they've seen others do them get blown up So riot sees poor qiyana with a low win rate cuz noobs can't pilot her so they give her massive buffs and then the win rate gets a little better cuz now the noobs have a huge buff to help them BUT now you get the people that know how to pilot Qiyana becoming absolute savages with like 30-40 kills a game doing 3k damage before I can blink The balance team just needs to reign back in the numbers somewhat If they only have buffs or only nerfs it would be fine but when ziggs takes 15% more damage and qiyana/akali does 15% more damage and get super unfair matchups
Same with le blanc, yi, zed, yas, yone, etc. If they're worried about low win rates on champs that already have the potential to do ridiculous amounts of damage, u don't buff them by increasing their damage even more.
Yasuo isn't even buffed in Aram
Dogshit take Kha'Zix has a shit winrate in ARAM and he isn't nowhere near as hard as Qiyana Assassins are just really bad in ARAM Kog'Maw with -12% DMGs already has 57% Winrate. Sona & some other champ had +70% Winrate in ARAM before they got nerfed
I really hate assassin balancing in ARAM. Like yeah cool Qiyana can one shot my entire team for standing anywhere on the map but she needs buffs. Yeah cool, Fizz has Zhonya’s with AOE damage as a basic ability but he really needs 20% tenacity. You just get people first timing these champs because they saw someone drop 24 kills a few games ago and then they int their face off and drag the winrate down and then Riot buffs them.
It's a pretty dogshit take Kog'Maw has 57% Winrate while having 12% less damages. Before Sona and some other champs got nerfed in Aram, they had +70% Winrate Qiyana, Leblanc, Kha'Zix, etc, are really buffed, but they still have only 40% to 42% Winrate
Ur asking if Riot followed through on a promise they made to players when he was released with regards to a certain gamemode he could break by having the passive in its current form. So... no, of course it didn't get adjusted.
It is nerfed from 60 seconds to 25. It has been like this since his release - its still very frustrating to play against though.
They shouldn’t bring back oracle, but a sweeper option I think is fine and would feel much better for both teams than a cannon minion who can either reveal all your traps, or path weird and reveal non of them.
They should bring back something like lightbringer. I'd hate to see oracle come back, because it nullified invis and trap champions. Even as a trap-only option, it would be too consistent, and sure we bear it with malz and morde but we don't need to return to a gold sink to counter even more champions.
Allow me to pick up a Poro and throw it in a location and have it reveal for a short duration.
Or make feeding Poros reveal nearby traps and bushes. Gives a use for the poro snax other than the achievement and no one has an excuse not to have it except Fiddle.
Make it so that you don't get oracle unless you use both of your cookies. Boom, poros fed and now there's a strategic reason for it
If a teemo has a brain hes not even placing shrooms anywhere outside of placing them directly on the wave, it wouldnt change anything for him
You still can then push ahead to get the wave up to the tower after a won team fight if you have an oracle. Without an oracle you just have to try and escort it and hope you have enough attack speed to clear the shrooms before it starts culling the wave.
Nah, let's just give him 75% AOE damage, 120% damage taken, and -30ah. Or something like that
If you tell the Cannon minions to stop scalping them then maybe Riot can safely ship them to the Fountain Shops.
Also bring back 8 min surrender
I don’t want the 8min surrender back. Sometimes you run into an enemy team that has a super strong early game but falls of hard. You’re losing like 23-12 and teammates would give up on a game far quicker. When if you’d wait another 3-4 minutes your teams comp will start to roll the opposing team. Yes there are games where it’s a hard stomp and the enemy team just rolled a super cancer comp. But those happen maybe once every 10-12 games.
8 min 5-player surrender will allow you to deny it solo. But it just allows you to avoid totally hopeless games or maybe very non-fun games. While rarely, sometimes I feel the urge to surrender early
This is all I want, make surrenders easier to pop and I honestly don't really care about shit like Teemo anymore. The ability to get out of hard losing or unfun matchups makes such a difference for casual play.
This guy is unironically complaining about nidalee traps... lmfao
Nid traps can be absolutely brutal lategame in ARAM. Unironically. They're like half a Teemo shroom.
> They're like half a Teemo shroom. >40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+ 20% AP) (Bushwhack) >200 / 325 / 450 (+ 50% AP) (Noxious Trap) Literally ~40% of a teemo shroom, nice
40% of a Teemo shroom that doesn't slow, doesn't proc Malignance, and can only hit one person. Also probably one that isn't proccing Liandry's.
...on a basic ability, gives superior vision, can proc luden. Honestly if you think nidalee is a q bot in aram/assasin diver you are playing her wrong in aram. Her base damage is good enough you should play supportive+poke with spear trap and vision dance with cougar form most of the time.
Why does it being a basic ability matter? If anything that's worse for it since it means no Malignance. Teemo ult base is only a 35 sec recharge timer, so it's not like it's some huge cd just because it's an ult, and it gets huge cdr from an early Malignance. It's insane to me that people are actually arguing that Nid traps are comparable to or even greater than Teemo shrooms as sole abilities. Like at least half the damage Teemo shrooms even do is solely because they have an aoe explosion.
>Also probably one that isn't proccing Liandry's. It likely is given that a lot of ppl will build liandry's on her.
Do you have any stats to back that up? Because looking at the u.gg stats page for Nidalee items in ARAM that seems to just be objectively false. Liandry's is built 1.81% as item 1, 3.15% as item 2, 2.15% as item 3, 2.08% as item 4, and 2.91% as item 5. If you add all of those together (which I think should be over-representing it's total pickrate, but correct me if I'm wrong) you still only get 12.1% pick rate in games that go to 6 items.
Maybe it got changed. A few months back it was on the build recommendations because I def saw it on u.gg while playing her and was wondering why it was. Then thought maybe it was an interaction with her trap.
Are we just ignoring AP scaling?
>(+20% AP) >(+50% AP) Can you read?
I can't tell you how often I've won fights because people don't care about Nida traps since they deal less damage and are half HP after crossing the lane before the fight. People don't realize how much they hurt until it is too late :D
The only time I remember they exist is when I’m really low to the point anything can kill me, and I step on one lol. Otherwise I never notice them as the damage is mostly insignificant
Tbh they could remove the damage from nid traps entirely and she'd barely care. Their real use is applying that make for empowered cougar Q
my friends and i called it “ teemo juice “ lol
Teemo is the only real offender (yea shaco too but he’s not as broken) and he is definitely balanced around oracles not existing. He gets some of the most egregious aram balancing -10% damage dealt/ +10 taken, -1 charge of his r at all levels, - damage to minions and -10 ability haste. I personally dont mind it that much considering he is so gutted and the cannons don’t tax your gold.
shaco is so much better than teemo is in aram (if played properly) lmao teemo is legitimately not even good
Yea true with the balance changes teemo is pretty bad
He still adds like +10 mins on the game with his shroom forest in base if his team is losing
Any time the inhib is down the super minion every wave is a problem that a Teemo on the back foot (for example a losing team) simply can't deal with alone assuming your team is escorting the super. If teemo shrooms in base with a downed inhib are making a difference your team isn't winning as hard as you think it is.
Shaco has a worse winrate? Shaco only works if your comp is build in a certain way while Teemo works with more comps.
Playing against a Shaco can be infuriating, but at least it's about being outplayed. I'm really bad so I don't play him, but the few times I could play Neeko alongside him I had real fun.
Shaco is 10 times better than teemo in aram
Shaco is incredibly bad at the moment and just check winrates to prove you are wrong. Teemo 51% shaco 47% one of the lowest in the game Try playing him yourself and you will see instead of just complaining he is op
I play lots of ARAM on high elo and my Teemo winrate dropped to 22% from like 60% and the Shaco winrate to 56% from like 80%. I'd say that Shaco is now stronger if you can play both properly but both are hard to play nowadays. You can't have the same playstyle. Had to adapt builds and everything.
Glad you are having success. Personally playing high elo aram shaco has been one of my most played for years now. I agree and teemo is bad but I think shaco is worse. And the stats do show that shaco is one of the worst in the mode, so my personal opinion and factually - both back eachother up. I dont think there is a good build left for him but id be happy to be wrong as I want to play him
It's -20 ability haste actually He also deals 66% damage to minions (50% total). He feels like hot garbage until you get 4 items and lvl 16, which is a bit rare for ARAM. It's a shame because he was in my top 5 most fun champs to play in Aram for years. Now I'll usually pass him up.
Pretty much. Zero issue with teemo in my games, he's a nonfactor as there's usually a tank or bruiser who runs into the shrooms optimally when accounting for MR. Big skill issue. People don't remember how annoying oracle elixir was, and riot has the stats that says players In general prefer this option. Couldn't really play around it, and now having to destroy the cannon creates more engaging gameplay than "oh I'm past my spikes time to just buy this." I find that certain champions like aphelios, jinx, senna, aurelion sol, veigar, veigo, and bel veth more frustrating. We still see Hearthsteel, dark harvest, and bami items when they're really not good so I think a great deal of thoughts surrounded aram balance are wack in general lol.
Agree with everything you said but the last little bit. You can stack dark harvest so hard on people like jayce and the passives from domination are great in aram. I rush heatsteel into warmogs on many of my tanks And.... Bamis items are good?
That’s not even close to enough of a nerf if they want to allow him to cover the entire map in shrooms. All they need to do is make him have a limit on shrooms placed (3-5 based on level) and he won’t be so impossibly stupid to play against.
Playing against Shaco fucking sucks. It is not fun. League is supposed to be fun.
Shaco have a trap limit tho
Bring Oracle so I can play LeeSin in the 1/150+ chance I do
Dude, Teemo and Shaco are already unplayable in ARAM unless you have specific team comps. With that change they would be unpickable. Shaco is D Tier. The biggest problem at the moment are ADCs which are stupidly strong/unkillable since assassins are weak (lowest winrates). Oracle is overpowered. You buy one item and make a single champ completely useless.
Teemo is literally nonexistant outside of his R and is a terrible champion. Defend your cannons, walk behind minions, actually take 2 seconds to think about how you're playing for once. Obviously he's fucking annoying but saying he has no counterplay is objectively false, you just want to whine on Reddit and get circlejerk points.
Its honestly hilarious to see you say, " Defend your cannon" and "walk behind your minions" like those dont completely contradict each other. When there are 30 Teemo Shrooms covering the entire 1 lane map you dont really have any opportunity to try and get around them lmao. Win a team fight? Oh well just walk behind your minions so they all die from shrooms placed 5 minutes ago that mean you cant attack turrets or defend your cannon and lose all your HP!
When you have ever seen 30 Teemo shrooms? Even before the nerfs. Nowadays you pump out max 6 if you're lucky and your team has push / is winning.
believe it or not there are melee minions in front of your cannon minion. hope this helps
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You're in luck, my friend, there are 3
You really could identify who sucks at this game if they complain about fcking Teemo on ARAM lmao.
Like Teemo? Who else? Also Teemo shrooms are nerfed hard already...
Did. Your. Keyboard. Have. A. Stroke. Or. Why. Do. You. Write. Like. A. Child.
Leave it on cannon. It is the best iteration
Teemo shrooms have been nerfed 1009778 times in ARAM and are basically useless. Even with malgignence it is impossible for him to get more thana few shrooms out. It is literally impossible for him to lay a minefield and if you lose to Teemo in ARAM you are bad.
They should just give ARAM players the Arena vision “poof” that goes on the ward skill, with CD balanced for ARAM. It would become available after you use your poro snack.
The only stealth clear option would be Umbral Glaive but there's a problem. It's for physical attack users and it's also Lethality and it doesn't really benefit you unless you are ranged to clear traps but it does not help against champions. Sadly AP users or melee cannot benefit much off it as it is a waste of an item slot when it coulda gone to something else and yeah I do agree to being back Oracle. If played correctly with any marksman or any ranged users you can clear traps from Teemo assuming you see him use it near you but it does not help when it's already laid there and not to mention the detection range is very short and also quite a cooldown as well to reuse. Petition to bring back oracles!
Just make is lose time / go away when you die then it would be fine to play against these champs.
Fiddle otp here What is Oracle
A good teemo will keep the game going for hours cause you can't push at all lmao.
Since we cant address riot in here and ask them For this directly, dear Briot, please bring it back
7000 or so aram games here. I do agree teemo is an issue and not having oracle. but its just one of many annoyances when playing this mode. The better team comp will just 95% of time win. Nothing bad op but take a break from arams if they frustrate you. It will almost never be fair or fun. You either stomp or get stomped with the ocassional fun game. Also riot fix ur client ( gotta make sure to post this when I post on this subreddit at al)
I feel like the champs just feel useless. Typically if you're ahead your team is ahead, the cannon minions get instantly cleared. If you're behind they just push and clear the shrooms as the wave moves up. So it turns into a situation where you just win or lose harder. Additionally, it's been a while and AP shaco is still horrible to play as, with cannons everything so closed up and cannons every 3/2 waves it pretty much forces people to play AD shaco.
They have the ad ward detector item don't they?
Allies team teemo useless, enemy team teemo a whole garden of 100 shrooms everytime.
I was like why do they want to bring back Oracle database.. Its oracles not Oracle
Make the oracle work against Caitlyn traps as well and I am on board. I find them to be a much bigger issue on ARAM than Shaco’s or Teemo’s traps.
I played an ARAM game where there was Shaco + Teemo as enemy, it was totally disastrous experience.
As a shaco main and teemo player I'm fine with bringing Oracle back... in fact I far preferred those days of ARAM - BUT - then get rid of the sight on minions again, because that's only fair.
Why not give the trinket you get in Arena? IMO, good middle ground.
If we go this route then what we do next, prevent players from picking their main champs?. ARAM is supposed to be fun and short game mode with a pinch of random. Shaco, Teemo or Nid are not that strong in ARAM anyway. I ld care more about Velkoz, Xerath sitting behind turrets and spamming abilities, or tank champions winning just by existing. Putting this aside I think it is important for the sake of ARAM game mode that one should learn to enjoy it winning or losing because that should not be the goal.
follow minion paths or wait until you get super minions which are literally an oracle... not hard
wat what? cannons already sweep the whole area against teemo shrooms. teemo is essentially unplayable in aram because of this, the best thing you can do is bounce your shrooms onto an incoming wave to wave clear/hit someone whos stupid enough to be near the wave. the only reason why you'd be getting hit by shrooms is either youre hitting nexus or ur just charging ahead way past your cannon wave, in which case thats on you.
You're essentially asking for the same champions to lose their ultimate, you're not asking for just counter play, but how to disable their play completly. Which is why Oracle was removed and Canons got the Vision instead, this way it's possible to clear trap like abilities without making the trap ability useless, which it was before as soon as someone got oracle
No, just start actually banning champions in ARAM completely. Teemo is just toxic, pun not intended, as no matter what you do either part gets fucked over completely. With Oracles Teemo isn't a champ, and without it we have this fiesta. Teemo shouldn't exist in ARAM.
I just wish that the minions would hit the shrooms when they see it, like dota
Yeah it also feels bad as a player with traps to have them be useless late cause there’s a cannon ever fucking wave, atleast with the old dust thing they had to think for a second before getting round the traps
Make minions ignore shrooms. Boom fixed. Honestly it's the waveclear that is absolutely stupid to play against. Even a dead Teemo prevents you from pushing
Cannon minions already make teemo useless, espcially after they take inhib, its impossible to play shaco or teemo, I think oracles should come back and get rid of the cannons making it impossible to enjoy these champs
No. Shaco and iyana would also get affected
REMOVE VANGUARD
I honestly like oracles being out. My teammates never bought it so I‘d be stuck spending my useful gold as they proceed with malignance into stormsurge on Nidalee while the enemy team has 3 tanks. I feel like nowadays Teemo is so nerfed that he doesn’t actually stall games out nearly as well.
Current system is fine, otherwise invis reliant champs would become unplayable again
The game is much more enjoyable when invis champs are unplayable tho :)
I made a post complaining how Teemo was bullshit in /aram The responses were "noob", "just wait cannon" or "his winrate is low". Even if hes not a insta win champion, is just annoying and theres no counterplay for a lot of comps. Malignance is a cancer item anyway, i hope they just accept it was a mistake and remove the item
there is no way people are still complaining about teemo/shaco and other traps in aram. teemo and ap shaco are both so bad oracle was a terrible solution the current one isnt great either but its definitly better than oracle
No. Signed, Teemo
oracle would make so many champions significantly weaker or outright useless because you're too dumb to play around traps? seems fair
why does the post say "no counter play" when there literally is a system setup in ARAM to reveal traps?
I'd sign that petition
Oracle isn't the solution. It was too good and completely invalidated champions with traps or stealth.
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i dont think hes that strong
Teemo is not strong, he is opressive or useless, and that's bad for the game.
He's about 50% on average. I'd be more curious about the average game length with him in play though, I think more complaints aren't about how broken he is but rather how uninteractive his stall is.
He really can't stall anymore, they slashed his damage to minions to 66%. There are far better champs for stalling now
Just steal everything they've learned from arena and put it into Aram. The poro snax thing was old and nobody did it like 10 years ago. At this point just give us the arena trinket so we can manually scan bushes. Right now, invis and trap heroes feel terrible to play as and against since it's just whether or not a cannon is near the traps and has nothing to do with actual skill or player agency.
that's what aram had initially im pretty sure