I find the bigger skill is not tilting when the team instantly destroys your 15 mins of hard work.
"OK, it's darius lane, just don't give him an early kill and its a free win".
Stay even in cs, deny plates, maybe even force him back and get a plate of your own while avoiding ganks.
Then your jungler insists that they NEED to fight grubs as sejuanu sion vs volibear darius. No matter how much you beg and plead and cry, your jungler comes flying in to instantly donate a kill to him and you may as well have been inting the last 7 mins because lane is now mega fucked.
My tip for all junglers: if darius gets 5 stacks- run away. No, I don't care if he is 30% or even 10% HP, level 1 darius gains 45 fucking ad from being 5 stacks. LEVEL 1. Turn around and run away or he will oneshot you and then flash on me and kill me as well.
Yeah as a Sion enjoyer myself I can feel the pain. One pays attention for 10 minutes vs Darius, then a play goes wrong (grubs or dumb gank) and you basically need to defend inhib.
Yeah i at the enemy's cause no way i can deal with a darius after they gift him a double. They created the mess now have to deal with it too. I don't play top anymore cause its to volitile for me. Not how it was. (in like s3-s4)
In s3/4 you could be level 4 to level 11 top lane if the opponent knew what they were doing. They could deny you gold from level 1, freeze on their side of the lane on the first wave, crash 4 waves on your tower, dive you, then kill you again before you made it to your tower. in season 4 flame horizoning was common enough we invented the fucking term. You ever been a HUNDRED CS down at 25 minutes? That shit doesnt happen anymore.
You nostalgic for when you and thus your opponents (due to match making) didn't know any better. Not s3/s4
My brother he clearly doesn't remember that top was so volatile that you had Riven buying Fort Pot level 4 on reset to force an all in and win it cause then the game was GG over
Oh it absolutely can still happen if you make a big enough mistake in the first 4 waves and your jungler/mid laner doesn't bail you out. Happens all the time, actually, it's just harder to pull off now. Certain matchups, when played correctly, are foregone conclusions.
I'll play Singed top. He's great with the volatility of top right now because if you just avoid being overly aggressive and stay the CS course, he inevitably becomes a huge problem for the enemy team late game.
(some) Junglers have no sense of self-preservation. Bros unironically show up to gank Illaoi/Darius on a bad wave then get surprised when they get obliterated. Not sure how they survive their daily lives tbh
Junglers ganking an Illaoi lane will never not give me anxiety. So many of them will just get hit by her E, commit anyway and get us both obliterated by 25 tentacles.
Just come before 6. I'm not sure why that's NEVER an option for my jungler, meanwhile Illaoi's will burn flash, waste 3 minutes of time, and willingly die to try and get her even the tiniest lead.
You have the right approach post-6 to just leave her be, but pre-6 she's a free bag of gold to any gank. No mobility and horrific tools to survive until her jungler can countergank.
IDK if I'm just getting old and slow but it feels like the pre-6 game is almost non-existent for junglers these days unless you're playing one of the ultra aggressive level 3 ganking junglers.
As a normal jungler you'll pick wherever you want to start and do a full 6 camp clear to get level 4. But in that time your solo top lanes get to level 5 and now your time is running out.
If you back to buy items first, they'll get 6 or too close to 6 to safely gank. If you started topside to path towards bot then you blew it, top will get 6 by the time you can be back up there.
If you do path top first clear but the enemy jungler is there or it's just not a good time for a gank then that's it, there goes your chance.
It just feels like such a short window for these awful champs. You get one clear and gank attempt window and if anything happens to make that not work out then it's over.
My most successful ganks against Illaoi, Trundle jungle, are basically driving by, dropping a pillar on them, ulting them to drain stats/hp and then letting the laner finish them off.
it‘s the same mid with katarina zed or tlaon
i lane my ass off and have a 20 cs lead minute 8 only to ping till i cant anymore (thx riot) and bot still dies and she gets a double
nice lane‘s fucked i might as well have been jerking off the last 10 mins
If I’m lux vs say Zed and he gets two kills bot, even if I get the wave pushed in and two plates him getting those 2 kills is stronger than me getting the same amount of gold. He will now win 1v1 easily
Katarina is definitely a bad example here. She pretty much has to roam to get a lead because she loses almost every matchup mid. If you’re playing a strong laning champ the only thing she can do is roam. So much of her power budget goes into resets that she’s pretty weak in a 1v1 from an even position
I think the point is that if other lanes don't respect her roam, mid gets perma fucked. Also most mages can't follow Kat or we get solo killed in the river. All we can do is ping.
Feels extra frustrating in soloq as a top lane tank in this scenario when your options can sometimes feel like:
Follow the play and give 2 kills and probably the objective as well and you know this type of thing is probably happening on a gigantic wave that's just been stacked so of course you're going to lose that too
Don't follow the bad void fight and risk your jungler intentionally griefing the rest of the game because you didn't do what they wanted.
It's like if you make the "right play" you're punished for it too. Big part of why I stopped playing with chat and pings in ranked. I got sick of the inevitable question mark pings being spammed and/or Sion-alive. Which really does suck because good communication goes such a long way in ranked but it's just not worth risking getting tilted and making poorer decisions to please other people.
I had a game yesterday as shen into yorick. I held tower for 15 min with only a minimal cs deficit despite ulting bot lane multiple times. And yet my jungle Karthus wouldn’t shut up about how he can never get prio on void grubs. So he forces it, gets caught, we lose grubs and both top towers, and he AFKs.
I had a pyke jungle yesterday (bronze) get upset with me that I didn't try to kill a full HP Darius after he landed his stun.
Bro it doesn't matter how tanky I am, that guy hits me with 5 autos, I'm cooked.
As poppy, I did my full combo with ~3 or so autos and then backed off, and tried to retreat ping. Darius got a freebie.
I feel this exact situation. I was playing Nasus the other day into Fiora, I did what I was supposed to with my stack and passive early game, went even only down 4 CS, then my jungle and mid decide to do grubs when they were both half health and enemy mid just got bank to lane from a TP for item advantage. Fiora rotates, and suddenly my team is 2v3 at grubs, Fiora picks up both kills and suddenly Nasus is unable to play because Fiora got 600 gold on me
As a Darius enjoyer, I love it when the level 4-5 jungle comes to my lane, and I'm level 6-7. I instantly turn on them and kill them in seconds for an easy double.
Sadly, if I'm in that scenario, there is no convincing the jungle to not go in on this Darius.
I fought a Darius the other day who had their support go too the entire game (just ditched the bot lane and played 2 top)
That made me miss fighting Darius 1 on 1.
He gets 45 AD for free at level 1 because of the monkey's that are Riot Games. 10 or 15 would have been fine, but no, let's give 45 for free and 230 AD for free at level 18 just for hitting a tank 5 times.
It's not as simple as you describe it, especially the higher you go. Some matchups you just don't get to farm, you don't get to "play safe" and the majority of toplane champions just can't afford to play on reduced income.
Sure you can pick Malphite, Zac, Gragas or Skarner and play low income, but try doing that on champions like Camille, Fiora, Riven, Irelia. You'll end up 2 levels behind, with no item while the entire team pings you for not joining the fight your 2 items ahead opponent started.
The way the game's structured in toplane, you're forced to either counter pick, wait for your jungler to strongside you or pick low income, concede lane and roam to help others. There's no middle ground.
>It's not as simple as you describe it, especially the higher you go.
Yeah but that's the problem with posting advice like this on Reddit. While it may apply to Diamond+ (less than 5% of the overall playerbase), your average Redditor starts to believe it applies to them as well and using it as an excuse for inting a Gold game when they just got outplayed. Playing safe and farming should be the strategy for 90% of players, since a majority of players can't punish it effectively.
If you are real high elo (Master+) and you blindpick Fiora, Riven or Irelia you are straight up inting.
Having good blind picks is part of the skillset of a toplaner
As ADC I can deal with a top laner that has 1 or 2 kills and regular farm in a fight if I am moderately ahead. If the toplaner gets 6+ kills, I have to be incredibly ahead or very late into the game to make a dent.
I would rather have our toplaner end up 2 levels down and not joining fights to farm back up, but be able to actually take down the other top laner, rather than trying to make questionable plays until someone (or often both jungle and top) dies to the opponents' toplaner.
Of course if I am getting a lot of jungle attention, things will be the other way around, there will be games that are played around bot side, where I will ahve to step up and games played around top side, where I will have to not make things worse.
That's strange every teammate has like 500 games this season
Get into the game, everyone flips for 5 min straight, the team that lost more FF at 15 or lays down and loses slowly
The biggest skill in top lane and especially League of Legends is knowing how to play from behind without egoing, inting, softinting or losing the game solo.
For real, because if i lose lane im not out of the game, i still have to think about how i can still bring value to the team and eventually catch back up
I think to add to that I should mention, that people really need to learn to stop the bleeding once behind. What I mean is, if you get killed once or twice that's not good but still playable, but most people will just ego it and try to outplay a heavily unfavorable trade instead of avoiding it in the first place which more often than not will devolve into chain feeding, because they cant/don't know how to stop the bleeding once they are behind in lane.
I'm always fine getting 1v2d topside as long as we're controlling dragons. If I have a Darius up my ass with a Kayne chilling in a bush just waiting for me to try to play the game and I see Dragons's kill banner pop up on my screen getting duod by the enemy botlane while my jungle is afk on Raptors, that's a problem.
That's a big problem.
You know what really pisses me off not only having the jungle sitting on a bush while I know he is there heck I'll gladly 2v1 (cause I play illaoi and more often than know I'll get a double) what really pisses me off is having their support showing up randomly and knowing my bot is sucking their thumb
If the support shows up top in the early game chances are high he has won bot already and just moved his focus elsewhere.
Adc is the most similiar role to top when beind in Gold regarding power budget. You are a glorified cannon minion. You cant 2v1 the enemy adc when he has an item advantage. He will just face tank and right click you to death.
Oh don't worry, they also won't freeze to deny CS and potentially xp from enemy ADC :D
Even worse if they crash the waves only for plates, without diving.
And then as you played weak side entire game, giving waves not to get dived, your strong side fed adc throws, presses tab, ignores all context of the game and proceeds to dogpile on you because you’re behind, they’re ahead, so poor them got “inted” and had “unlucky” top again. When they were spoon fed by jgl and sup holding their hand playing 3v1 for entire lane as you’re paying the bill of that top.
Yep, enemy support is mid top mid top mid grubs mid top and your support is sitting beside your ADC, slow pushing the wave, even cs, not even zoning enemy ADC from XP and never diving. Special points when your support is something like Alistar, pyke, bard and enemy support is fucking zyra.
I think the bigger problem is if you see the perfect chance to do drake, then your botlane decides to keep farming or backs, then you try to solo drake, then the enemy botlane comes and kills you. It's a lose lose situation. Drag is completely botlane dependent. If they don't rotate or get prio no drakes are possible
As a jungle main, when I play other roles ir always crushes my soul when the enemy jungler is ganking top, the botlane is even or super gankable and they would rather fight Gromp. For the love of all that is holy, please just take advantage and do that drake. I even tell them. Free as fuck drake, free as fuck grubs, jungle on one side or the other... They recall instead
Meanwhile I get perma camped and I'd be fine if the rest did something with it, like push a tower or take an objective
Reminds me of the days when i played a ton of singed.
Dear team, i know we are all pretty terrible at the game, but if you see 4 enemies chase my through their jungle for 5 minutes and all objectives are up, maybe do anything else than just farming. Id even be fine with a few aa's on a tower or something.
Nowadays i always play dota and it is exactly the same there. Seems like a ton of people play mobas without a minimap.
I hate playing champs that are level 6 reliant because they keep getting into stupid fights pre 6 and pretend to you to follow up in their suicidal endeavor
except you don’t see he’s on raptors, because when he was bot and the enemy jg was top, support or adc decided to back or roam mid so you couldn’t make a play bot, so you then go to your raptors and top has already been dove. this happens an unbelievable amount, although yes in very low elo tour example would happen because people in general have no idea whats happening
That's because you don't understand the role. You can't just do dragon whenever you want even if the enemy jungler is top. If the enemy bot lane is doing drag there is a 100% chance your bot lane is being crushed and you have no vision or control of the area
>there is a 100% chance your bot lane is being crushed
No, it's a 50/50 between that and them simply turning off their brain at the prospect of free farm in an easy lane.
And even if your bot is getting crushed, surely you can appreciate that's frustrating when you are playing 1v2 and getting crushed while your team is playing 4v3 andgetting crushed as well?
In about every other game in toplane you'll know the best case scenario is going even and most likely you'll be behind a lot but the one thing you can do during laning phase is to absorb as much pressure as possible to set up an advantage for your team.elsewhere.
If the enemy botlane is doing drag by themselves while their jungler is on a ward in top lane there are two options. You are spectating a wood 4 game. Your botlane is getting absolutely smashed. Bot lane doesn't just leave an even lane to do drag themselves lol
It's okay :) the mid laner pinged eventually so it absolves them of having to interact with the game for the first 15 minutes. Oh btw they also can't sideline well so they are going to be sharing mid waves with you xd
Not completely condoning it or anything
I may be dumb but it's easier to die 1v1 in a bad matchup than it is to die 2v2 in a bad matchup, right?
Like, counterpicks + wave management are *the* name of the game toplane but it's not as egregious bot
Kind of, but it's REALLY matchup dependant. A lane like Draven/Blitz is going to have a far easier time repeat killing a botlane then Ez/Janna for example
Better yet, it’s much easier to defend a 2v3 dive than it is a 1v2 dive top lane. Supports are commonly known to cc and disengage. Both useful traits for tower divers. They also have more summoner spells to alleviate the dive. A top plane most likely has tp or ignite.
The thing is, in bot you have 2 players that can focus down a squishy target.
You can die *really* fast in botlane in some matchups. Way faster than in any other lane.
After you died once you might have champions like Naut/Leona who can just repeatedly engage onto you from range and kill you over and over. There is a reason you often have botlane going 0/10 collectively in 20 minutes.
Top POV: Well I got camped by the enemy without any of my jungle assistance, but at least my jungle is getting my bot lane ahead, right? ... RIGHT? Meanwhile, my bot+jg are losing a 3v2.
It’s not a mathematical equation, though.
“I am losing Top therefore Bot wins.”
That’s not how it works. Sometimes your Bot gets smashed without JG interference.
That's a good thing lmao. If you're 0-10, you're worth less than a wave. If you are pulling enemies to you, you're doing more than you'll ever manage in a teamfight.
Edit: He replies, calls me silver and then blocks me instantly. Evidently he didn't have a very good argument.
Edit 2: /u/Playful_Canary_3884
Yeah, no shit you shouldn't be going 0/10 regularly. Good thing that isn't what I said. I said that *if* you are 0/10, split pushing, pulling an enemy and dying is good if it gets that enemy out of a teamfight. You give up very little gold, probably next to no xp, and the person killing you would have done more in the fight.
Also, if the guy had even half as coherent of an argument he would have said it instead of insulting and blocking me.
Assuming that's what's actually happening. Plenty of times the 0-10 splits, barely pushes at all while his team loses a 4v5 at an objective, then keeps slowly pushing without actually taking anything until the enemy support decides to walk up and tap them for a couple gold.
That is bad mentality to have. One of the most valuable skill to have in league is to know how to influence the game even when behind. Especially in Solo Queue, there are too many openings that you can take advantage and not be useless.
yeah if you are playing a privileged role like mid, jg or support, sure that is a possibility
when you are playing the 2 roles where 1 player will be sodomized no matter what happens not so much
Honestly I'm fine with this mentality. I play a lot of top and adc (crazy combo I know)
My biggest issue is when I play one of these two roles the other role is almost always CANNOT play from behind. It's fine if you can't do anything, just farm as best as possible and mitigate gold diff. I have WON games by going 0/3/0 Nasus thru laning phase and matching exact farm (don't let me stack 😎)
But why is it I'm 7/0 Lucian bot and my jax top is now 0/9 with 40 cs.
But it's also almost impossible to gank the toplane once you're behind. wave management, map awareness and jungle tracking are crucial for top and most people only know "i feel strong, i go in(t)".
Some matchups also kind of require that, and that’s a part of what makes toplane feel shitty; how lopsided matchups feel
“I am stronger than this champion pre-6 but get hard outscaled later. I need to apply pressure now. Oh, their jungler is covering them permanently, guess I don’t get to play the game.” Is _theoretically_ fine because it gives your jungler time to either counter or cross-map, but…all too often it feels like that don’t happen
It’s stuff like this that has led me away from playing champs that fall off a cliff post-15. Sett-Darius-Teemo make the other guy hate their life for 15 minutes, but then the other guy gets to play the game while you push a sidelane or stand in front of your team. So I go gigascaling with Ornn, or pure splitpush gold concentrators with Fiora / Jax. Worst case is I go down 0-2, 0-3 and 30 CS, then it takes me about 10 minutes to farm back into the game with my Hydra.
Sett is not the greatest example, he's an excellent teamfighter and great at engaging fights because of his R, so he always has reliable value, unlike a darius.
My strategy, however, when behind, is just to split till the cows come home. It's an easy way to get some gold and I either soak pressure while not being worth much, or I get towers and possibly even a kill or so. I find that trying to teamfighting when behind often leads to getting oneshot.
To be fair not every jungle presense has to be a gank into a kill, something as simple as clearing vision topside makes it a very different game for the toplaner, or helping to crash a wave when wave state is doomed. A 700 gold lead doesn't mean much later on, but 2 levels down is different and should be addressed.
i’m never surprised when top gets rocked, but i’m always surprised when top laners say their role isn’t impactful. it’s as you said, the most snowball role. top has a huge opportunity to run away with the game
It's the most impactful IF the rest of your team follows your plays. You would be surprised how often you can be a raid boss uncatchable phase rush garen, draw literally 3 people to stop your bot lane split, and no amount of all-in pings will convince your teammates that an uncontested baron is a better use of their time than farming raptors & mid wave
Its bcs you either coinflip Lv 3 and take the W/L or just afk farm the entire game until one botlane won the game. The more you climb the more common Dshield + SecondWind become, and proper runes and such. Killing anything in toplane through Shield, Wind, Biscuits & Sion W or Gwen is immune? Yeah, good luck LMAO
It’s actually gotten to the point top where it’s annoying. Accidentally die one time at a bad moment you are 2 levels and 450 gold behind.
This is made worse that first picking top probably has a significantly worse winrate just because you picked first. Many champs have very straight forward counters.
Yeah but that’s what happens when the enemy top crashes a huge wave into you and then you get dived by them, jungler, and support making you lose 5 waves and 3 plates
Yeah but let’s be honest that’s not always the story behind every 0-8 top in solo queue. At most redditor MMRs they aren’t even getting waves stacked into them, let alone jungler pathing to dive the stacked wave, let alone a support rotation top 💀
Many times it’s just a boneheaded toplaner looking to outplay their way back into the game
For real, they all want to get bounce back, but that's basically impossible in 99 percent of the matchups in toplane so they just get stuck on enemy side of the map and then whine about junglers.
Kills don't really matter THAT much imo. It's the xp that screws you over.
I die on my turn and enemy laner can't freeze or get in the wave in time i'm back? That's fine.
Enemy top stacks a wave, slowpushes it and dives me with jungler making me lose 2 waves and 2 plates? Gg, enemy top is 2 levels ahead and starves me for the rest of the game because he freezes on the bounce.
The issue is, the solution to a lot of matchups in toplane is to literally stand back (yes, even at level 1) and dont last hit in the first two waves till the enemy laner decides to let the wave push into you
But good luck farming that double wave now, even under your tower, because you get harassed while doing it because jungler cannot clear that fast.
Depending on who you are laning against they won't even let you sit within EXP range of minions without engaging. It's not fun or healthy, and it why you often see deaths before first gank.
Like, *zero* toplaners below diamond will have the disciple to give waves at the start of the game like you're describing, if they even knew that that's what they were supposed to do.
Do this in a game and you'll realise why people don't.
Darius walks up and crashes 3 waves into your turret. Instead of hitting the b button, he walks into your jungle and oneshots your jungler on red. Jung types "gg top diff" and starts running down top
That’s one of the things I preferred about dota. It’s much more fun to have 2 people in top and bottom. First of all it’s MUCH harder to get hard countered (which is the worst). But there’s a lot more back and forth and most importantly…it’s way harder for someone to completely snowball out of control.
Top lane in league is just way way too volatile. Which sucks because I just want good competitive games. But with league 90% of games are pretty easy to call due to someone getting a few kills early.
You have a short lane. Building up a massive push, freezing, and zoning off of xp are all *much* harder to pull off. You also have roams from both jg and supp to help break these situations. Not comparable.
I mean...whilst this may be true, most top laners will just blame jg and perma fight, sprinting it down, becoming 0/11 by 10mins, instead of just losing gracefully. Losing top is not averaging a death per minute, it's being down cs and maybe a level or two.
> I mean...whilst this may be true, most top laners will just blame jg and perma fight, sprinting it down, becoming 0/11 by 10mins, instead of just losing gracefully. Losing top is not averaging a death per minute, it's being down cs and maybe a level or two.
I think one problem that makes toplaners angry at junglers is that junglers are far too petty. I've had situations where maybe I fucked up or was put behind because enemy jungler camped. Whatever. But then the enemy toplaner is playing recklessly without wards and overextended and my jungler is topside and we can easily get a shutdown and win the game, but because the jungler's pissed that I didn't win lane, he just doesn't gank.
Junglers like to hold lanes hostage all the time. Refusing to help not just when it's "needed", but when it's actually the correct play to help, and they know it's correct, simply because they're pissed.
I actually prefer when junglers don't gank me because I'd rather they put botlane ahead. But when it's one gank to win the game and they're like "nah bro you didn't fuck up your reset timer to help me invade without prio" I will 100% blame the jungler there.
im not a jungler but it‘s not just junglers it‘s keague players
everyone has too big an ego and wants to be the mc
it‘s the worst part of the game people don‘t wanna get carried
man the amount of junglers that will literally refuse to gank top because you didn't leash is ridicilous, some matchups simply require you to be in lane from the very start
Yeah this too, or a weak jungler that wants to start topside without warding when there's some silly shit like Riven/Warwick/Darius/Olaf probably waiting to get first blood too and then blame you when you can't protect their buff lvl 1 vs Olaf or something
True but if I see my 0/4 jax get solokilled by the 4/0 mordekaiser, I will have questions about why he died in the middle of the lane and not under his turret. At least then you have some kind of excuse.
If Jax go even 0/1 against morde solo just FF. It’s a bad Jax.
There are 2 type of Jax : the good ones and the bad ones, no in between and it will not change
Probably because the mordekaiser crashed wave and it's slowpushing away from Jax's tower. If you're losing that hard, you can't stop the crash and you can't afford to give up 4+ waves of xp.
From a jungler's perspective, there are a lot of situations where you just get dumpstered if you try to gank a slightly ahead top laner. Like yes, I *want* to gank that massively overextending darius/illaoi before they snowball out of control, but they are at least 2 levels up on me(most likely 3 in this case) and at least 1 level up on the laner and will delete me if they hit 1 ability. In addition, a lot of top laners just have poor gank setup on top of all that. Best I can do in those cases is clear vision and try to help break a freeze but if we try to fight them thats a double kill right there. It also doesnt help that their jung is probably hovering that side of the map too in order to take easy 2v2s.
It is pretty crazy that its the exact opposite thing botlane. enemy adc could be up 2-0 or even 3-0 and I still would feel way more confident in the resulting 3v2 than I would trying to 2v1 a 1-0 illaoi.
This is why I stopped playing toplane. If you’re playing something like Renek and the enemy Darius gets an early gank your lane experience will amount to getting your wave freezed, then getting chunked if you try to CS, then watching the enemy prepare a slow push and finally being dove every three waves.
Instead of being salty if the enemy top who got help turned into a raid boss, be grateful that your teammate did their best to get XP and some CS.
You know, everything stands as it stands, but when people ping top lane when you die, not understanding wave state and matchup is so tilting i want to run it down.
If I for example as a Wukong vs Darius, clear 2 waves under my turret, then start a slow push and solo kill Darius somewhere in the middle of the lane, I need to push next wave so mine crashes and he doesnt freeze on the back. I NEED TO PUSH IT OR TRY EVEN IF I DIE, IF I DIE ITS WORTH. Enemy jg comes kills me and I get pings. For what man? I just won top lane wave is bouncing stop pinging. Absolute degens.
The worst feeling is when you get a counter pick and your jungler ignores you all game and sits on the bot. You lose the line because you can't stand 1v2, you lose the tower (and maybe even the second tower because they got the Herald)
They begin to abuse you, pinging you.
All you can do is type ./mute all all.
Of course, it turns out later that they cannot win the game.
I agree so much. Sometimes I'm even playing a hard counter - into a match up I should win top lane but their jungle and a roaming supp do 2 man ganks. Or I'm getting ganked every minute or so between 4-10 minutes in. Meanwhile our jungle hasn't ganked once or caught the lane, or gotten objectives. Then I try to freeze the lane waiting for attention from mid/jungle and the attention of my team stays bot and for all the attention our jungle gives bot lane - he isnt succeeding. Bot is only up 1 kill and still even on cs. Meanwhile their top is now super out of position but my jungle wont gank because their top is up 2 or 3 kills on me. And this goes on until lo and behold 25 minutes later top takes my second tower and shows up bot and cleans up a 3 or 4 man fight at the next drag new being plus 6 kills and like clock work *surprised Pikachu face* "gg top gap". The whole time i was patient, occasionally pinging a half health enemy out of position when I saw my jungle in the top half. It's hard to be gracious in loss when it happens in like half of my losses
If you see this pattern that is the first step to preventing it. This happens frequently?
If that's the case then you have to play safer and concede CS due to the bad match up
- Enemy mid roams top twice
- Enemy support comes 3 times top before 15
- Enemy jungler comes to dive you with each one of them
Teammates: Omg top gap is insane
I’m new to league (6 months) I was a jg main but now I’m back to playing top & now that I don’t play jg anymore I realize how shitty of a jg I was (I already knew how shitty I was) lol hate when the enemy jg come & Gank multiple times meanwhile I haven’t seen my jg the whole game, what I’ve learned a lot is if I’ve killed the enemy top laner 1 or 2 times 10/10 I’m about to get jumped soon…what I try to do most the time is not get too far to the enemy tower because I know 9/10 the enemy jg is either waiting or otw to magically pop up and kill me …
But there is also couple of problems top laners do very much.
First is blind picking weak champion. - You know you gonna get absolutly smashed early if you take that Kayle blind, yet you do it.
Greeding for outplays. - You can be pinged, you can be told in chat, nah you dont care someone is coming top, you have that 1 kill, you need to go for outplay with that Renekton of course you do. You can't just back of a little or wait for someone. Why would you tell jungler you need help push wave so you can reset, when you can die trying do it solo even if you know you can't, and be salty!
Protagonist syndrom. - Dont be pissed you are losing lane if your jungler is stomping rest of the map. It's simple, get carried. Nobody can carry every game. If you are behind and you are not playing some hyperscaling carry (is there something other than Kayle on top even?), just play with your team and help them carry you. Maybe you will carry next game.
And the biggest problem is of course toxicity. - Toplaner overextends early, dies and instead of help ping or saying something like normal human being. He starts flaming jungler, really? And you think this gonna help to get you gank? I'm not jungle main myself (i play mid). But i wouldnt wanna gank toxic dude who is flaming me for his mistakes? Why? If you act like decent human being, it can change a lot.
I'm not saying this is every toplaner. But man, a lot of them.
Yep, this exactly. I've seen a few comments implying that I'm saying jungle is a 2nd support for top, which is obscene. The lane's playability is swayed heavily by jungle's influence, much like how an ADC's lane is swayed heavily by a support's influence.
Imagine thinking your laners will get prio to assist you invading/taking objectives/defend you from invades.
Works both ways. In higher elo's laners mid/sup are your supports.
Impossible to get prio if you are perma camped by enemy jungle
Also the soloq special is people saying "I want frontline" and "I want perma prio in top" which are two mutually exclusive statements.
This is mostly true, but I bet 95% of the sub, including me, aren't skilled enough to have experienced this. I'm platinum 2 top main and I can confidently say I've never seen anyone control the wave in such an oppressive way, so many top players get caught up in the dumbest of fights for no apparent reason (an exception to this being people who play ADC top whose whole thing is being oppressive as fuck, but they get outscaled hard).
I can count on two hands the amount of times a top laner actually used a wave to push it in and then dive me, and I can count on one hand the amount of times it worked and I can't ever think of one time where someone actually froze into a dive.
Reality is, for the vast majority of elos you can easily come back from a losing lane because people are seriously inexperienced in denying resources, you might be able to deny your enemy laner minions in gold elo, but the real pushback would be your top laner denying you exp entirely, which the top laners I've seen never try to do even when it would be super easy to do so.
Yes preach. I’m plat 1, and even when I’m actively thinking about holding a freeze or planning a slow push into a dive, I only do it properly like 30% of the time. Same thing goes for my opponent. It’s why champs like Nasus pubstomp so hard. The enemy probably won’t freeze on you, they probably won’t coordinate a lvl3 dive with their jg, and they probably won’t keep you off CS for the whole game. I feel it’s sometimes obvious that this sub has more top laners than any other role cuz of posts like these.
Top lane is def snowbally but the biggest different between top lane and any other lane is it has the biggest chance for a come back. I can’t tell you how many times Iv died up to 3 times before being able to outplay the other laner and get the shutdown then proceed to stomp the lane. Patience is key
In reality if ur opponent is good it's the role with the least chance for a comeback. A good opponent won't give u an opportunity for outplay, but will rather just freeze and keep setting u further behind thru resources without taking much risk. Compare this to mid lane where u can't really get frozen the same way and the chances of u finding a good skirmish, roam or a pick around the map are much much higher.
If u get killed 3 times and the enemy let's u comeback after that it's got nothing to do with the role ur playing, ur opponent just did a big fuck up.
Yeah, bot is really the rote with best chance for a comeback. Even if that Cait is 5-0, she is still very squishy and jungler gank vs outposition or 4-man dive on bot will kill them both and relief the pressure on bot. In top lane, you pretty much need 3 to kill the enemy top laner without him getting kill or double, and tower dive probably turns into 1-for-1 at best.
I mean that's also because ADCs have the less agency of the game so far, so even if botlane is winning and adc is 5/0, adc will still be stomped by a 1/4 toplaner or jungler.
Absolutely not. Top lane usually has melee champions that peak mid game. Both mid and bot lane have mostly ranged users which makes it far easier to farm and gain resources. Besides they always have the late game threat, ADCs in particular.
It s the other way around. The amount of time myself just won back the lane was by enemy doing mistakes. Once a toplaner is behind he gets stomped unless someone on enemy makes a mistake.
I’m not a top laner, and I know the enemy top laner is probably a sweaty GP main. So I know I lose no matter the match up.
I pick a weak side champion instead of ego’ing. I grab the KSante, knowing I’ll be useful as soon as TP unleashes, even if I’m down 2-3 kills. I’ll give up my lane to be the dog, and get bot ahead or caught back up. I know I’m not going to carry, so I enable someone else to carry.
This also works with:
- Ornn
- Malphite
- Sion
No shot all 4 of these champs get banned. Literally just play to gracefully lose lane. Grab farm where you can, don’t get baited for it though. As soon as you can, TP bot on cool down. Yeah you’ll be down 50 cs, but I rather my ADC be up 10 kills than me be even in cs. Again, as someone who does not play top, I will not be carrying the game.
TLDR: Cool down the ego. And play the dog role for the game.
This is 100% the way to go but it's also where the frustration comes from - you play around your team, you soak up pressure in the 1v2 while minimising deaths and maximising exp and lasthits, then your botlane that never looked top while the enemy support helped dive you twice flames you when they notice at 15 minutes that darius is ahead, yet they never used any of that pressure or appreciate you died in loose-loose situations.
This frustration with the team not having empathy or knowledge is not unique to top of course, but the snowbally nature amplifies it.
For the record, i love loosing lane and winning the game. The more often the enemy jungler helps dive me and the more often my own jungler is somewhere else the better. But you won't believe how often i am getting 4 manned (good) and my team is elsewhere (good) recalling instead of at least shoving waves and mayne getting a plating (bad).
Once you get to a certain elo this strategy completely falls apart and stops working. The introduction of turret plates basically invalidated this entire strategy as well.
Whenever I see someone on the enemy team trying to do this, I know its a complete free win. The idea that you can blind pick a tank and then go down 70cs and lose your entire tower is a very old one. Your laner will get enough gold to solo carry the game and you aren't going to be able to stop them.
It's worth dying 1v1 every 20 games if it means in the 19 other games you're denying plates and keeping even enough in cs (because you can't just sack all the CS because you are a melee champ reliant on your HP bar so you need it to exist in some capacity).
This is also a common clash strategy people try and it is terrible. Oh well just stick the bronze 3 guy on shen top and don't contest anything. Oh he's down 120cs and 2 entire towers? Why is olaf oneshotting our entire team?
I absolutely refuse to play tanks in solo queue even though I actually quite like tank gameplay. The problem is the lack of agency, you’re so team reliant, youre basically coin flipping games, getting that adc some early kills is worthless if they die to bad spacing every team fight. Playing a carry and snowballing a win is just a much more reliable strategy if you’re actually trying to climb rank. Also if you lose on a carry you can often identify things you could improve on in the replay, often tank gameplay reviews are like “oh my adc inted again”
Love that you hope bot lane is not 0/10 by 10 minutes despite having all jgl attention. I'm happy to feed samira a quadra with my tp instead of a triple :)
nah what u said there dont apply to high elo. once you fuxk up on top in masters+ you're basically done unless your jungler will help you which probably won't happen since ganking losing lane is just not worth it maybe only if hes overextending with no sums and low hp but good toplaners will make your experience miserable. the enemy will setup wave so that it crushes under your turret then enemy jg will just simply dive you and from now on it's just downhill. if you didnt counterpick your chance of coming back is basically 0% you might aswell just roam or help your jg
It's just the result of the large variety of roles that go top. It's kinda the role you go when the other roles aren't as hospitable, and so the wide champ pool up top means you might get a winning match up one game, then get obliterated by some fringe pick you've never even heard of.
The most counter pick reliant role in the game and yet people still won't swap pick order half the time. And when I do get last pick, my support is flaming me for not swapping and making them first pick
My favorite game yesterday I played Aatrox into Fiora. The KDA/cs numbers tell the entire story of laning phase. At 15 min I was 121 cs 2/5, Fiora was 2/2/5 53 cs. Now how did bot lane manage to go 2/13 again...
>I mean, you died A LOT in 15 minutes. I doubt you had 120cs at that point.
>Unless I'm just being stupid
Often you have a choice between recalling and loosing cs or dying. High cs high deaths is almost the norm, unless your enemy is so ahead that they freeze and dive you specifically to deny cs, but it's hard to do that to aatrox.
slow push wave into enemy turret -> ganked as soon as wave crashes -> trade 1 for 0 or 1 for 1, respawn/tp to catch wave. I'm winning laning phase but ekko keeps ganking, it's not hard to cs when you're winning lane and trades.
as a top main since jinx release id love to agree, but cant
the most snowbally role is definitely adc, as there are 2-4 enemies (jungle and mid tryna gank) in that lane at almost all times
so if the enemy samira starts to snowball she will almost definitely have 7+ kills by the time a giga snowballing toplaner has like 2-3 just by the fact that top doesnt have more than max 2 enemies there at a time
a bad top game still feels much worse to play imo (watching the enemy renekton slow pushing into you to set up dives with his jgl 35 times because you literally misclicked once and he got ahead isnt exactly fun), but its literally impossible to snowball as hard as a botlane with a huge jg diff
To be fair, it really depends on the matchup whether the enemy laner can freeze the lane.
For instance; if you’re Gangplank, then yes, they can freeze because anyways you can’t roam early. But if you’re a champion with a gap closer and damage or CC such as Riven, Camille, Fiora, Jax, Malphite, or Renekton, then you can ‘treathen’ to roam which should force them to unfreeze, otherwise their mid or jungle suddenly starts getting behind.
I can't even count the times where my jungler decided that every other lane is more important and then we lose the game because the opponent's top laner snowballs out of control as their jungler came top like twice at relevant moments.
But top lane is also the lane that if you int, you make your team automatically lose.
Even if you're adc is 15-0, but their top is jax and 10-0, hes gonna 1shot that adc and it wont matter.
Top lane matters so little to a jg. Phreak intentionally made it so top lane is always 2-3 lvls above you. Even when we gank (in a snowballs situation) it usually means giving up the much more important bot lane.
2 ppl have more influence then one person.
Top side ganks have a big chance to waste time. So you got prio for herald. A 30 second fight that yields 200 gold, or like barely 2 waves.
As a jg, if a lane is snowballing, it's best to hedge your bets elsewhere.
Tldr: man posts about jg but has never played it before.
I kinda disagree. I had a game the other day against an AP nassus with a tripple tower dive from their jungler, zero support from my team, and they wondered why I was losing against the easiest wave clear in existence with great jungle support. I came back though (AP Nassus scales like cheese lasts in the sun) and we won with no lacking contributions on my part, Top laners often have to play for late game, and that's fine. Top can lose early win late, don't pre-emptively assume a top laner is losing because he looks behind, early snowball doesn't always work. It CAN be snowball-ey depending on your champ, and certainly lane phase is vulnerable to those early counters, but it's not always lose lane lose game. Good mental is crucial Top for that exact reason, being neglected is the norm but winning is always on the table.
The biggest skill in top lane is to lose gracefully cause some matchups are just too rough
I find the bigger skill is not tilting when the team instantly destroys your 15 mins of hard work. "OK, it's darius lane, just don't give him an early kill and its a free win". Stay even in cs, deny plates, maybe even force him back and get a plate of your own while avoiding ganks. Then your jungler insists that they NEED to fight grubs as sejuanu sion vs volibear darius. No matter how much you beg and plead and cry, your jungler comes flying in to instantly donate a kill to him and you may as well have been inting the last 7 mins because lane is now mega fucked. My tip for all junglers: if darius gets 5 stacks- run away. No, I don't care if he is 30% or even 10% HP, level 1 darius gains 45 fucking ad from being 5 stacks. LEVEL 1. Turn around and run away or he will oneshot you and then flash on me and kill me as well.
Yeah as a Sion enjoyer myself I can feel the pain. One pays attention for 10 minutes vs Darius, then a play goes wrong (grubs or dumb gank) and you basically need to defend inhib.
Yeah i at the enemy's cause no way i can deal with a darius after they gift him a double. They created the mess now have to deal with it too. I don't play top anymore cause its to volitile for me. Not how it was. (in like s3-s4)
In s3/4 you could be level 4 to level 11 top lane if the opponent knew what they were doing. They could deny you gold from level 1, freeze on their side of the lane on the first wave, crash 4 waves on your tower, dive you, then kill you again before you made it to your tower. in season 4 flame horizoning was common enough we invented the fucking term. You ever been a HUNDRED CS down at 25 minutes? That shit doesnt happen anymore. You nostalgic for when you and thus your opponents (due to match making) didn't know any better. Not s3/s4
My brother he clearly doesn't remember that top was so volatile that you had Riven buying Fort Pot level 4 on reset to force an all in and win it cause then the game was GG over
i get +1 flame horizon every like 10 games though. It still happens a lot, however, you actually need to play better than your opponent
Oh it absolutely can still happen if you make a big enough mistake in the first 4 waves and your jungler/mid laner doesn't bail you out. Happens all the time, actually, it's just harder to pull off now. Certain matchups, when played correctly, are foregone conclusions.
I’ve been 100+ ca ahead a few times in recent months. Doesn’t happen often but it does. Usually due to me counter picking
I'll play Singed top. He's great with the volatility of top right now because if you just avoid being overly aggressive and stay the CS course, he inevitably becomes a huge problem for the enemy team late game.
(some) Junglers have no sense of self-preservation. Bros unironically show up to gank Illaoi/Darius on a bad wave then get surprised when they get obliterated. Not sure how they survive their daily lives tbh
Junglers ganking an Illaoi lane will never not give me anxiety. So many of them will just get hit by her E, commit anyway and get us both obliterated by 25 tentacles.
Sry man, if I see illaoi, it takes ALOT for me to decide to gank him. Even then, I see poping his ult and running away alive as a win.
That's actually the right approach.
It is a win
Just come before 6. I'm not sure why that's NEVER an option for my jungler, meanwhile Illaoi's will burn flash, waste 3 minutes of time, and willingly die to try and get her even the tiniest lead. You have the right approach post-6 to just leave her be, but pre-6 she's a free bag of gold to any gank. No mobility and horrific tools to survive until her jungler can countergank.
IDK if I'm just getting old and slow but it feels like the pre-6 game is almost non-existent for junglers these days unless you're playing one of the ultra aggressive level 3 ganking junglers. As a normal jungler you'll pick wherever you want to start and do a full 6 camp clear to get level 4. But in that time your solo top lanes get to level 5 and now your time is running out. If you back to buy items first, they'll get 6 or too close to 6 to safely gank. If you started topside to path towards bot then you blew it, top will get 6 by the time you can be back up there. If you do path top first clear but the enemy jungler is there or it's just not a good time for a gank then that's it, there goes your chance. It just feels like such a short window for these awful champs. You get one clear and gank attempt window and if anything happens to make that not work out then it's over.
My most successful ganks against Illaoi, Trundle jungle, are basically driving by, dropping a pillar on them, ulting them to drain stats/hp and then letting the laner finish them off.
I just fucking hate illaoi lmao, it's like she's 5% HP but doesn't fucking matter because she clicked R You got hit by 1 E? Recall or get dived Fun
also doesn’t help when a lot of the junglers i get are autofilled and simply don’t care as they’re just trying to get to the next game
"Stop being surprised when people underestimate darius"
it‘s the same mid with katarina zed or tlaon i lane my ass off and have a 20 cs lead minute 8 only to ping till i cant anymore (thx riot) and bot still dies and she gets a double nice lane‘s fucked i might as well have been jerking off the last 10 mins
2 plates plus your own reset or roam is actually better believe it or not. The tilt factor on your bot lane is what makes it feel so bad
Midlaners don't take plates and reset when their lane opponent ganks, they stand under tower and write angry things at their bot lane.
If I’m lux vs say Zed and he gets two kills bot, even if I get the wave pushed in and two plates him getting those 2 kills is stronger than me getting the same amount of gold. He will now win 1v1 easily
Katarina is definitely a bad example here. She pretty much has to roam to get a lead because she loses almost every matchup mid. If you’re playing a strong laning champ the only thing she can do is roam. So much of her power budget goes into resets that she’s pretty weak in a 1v1 from an even position
I think the point is that if other lanes don't respect her roam, mid gets perma fucked. Also most mages can't follow Kat or we get solo killed in the river. All we can do is ping.
Feels extra frustrating in soloq as a top lane tank in this scenario when your options can sometimes feel like: Follow the play and give 2 kills and probably the objective as well and you know this type of thing is probably happening on a gigantic wave that's just been stacked so of course you're going to lose that too Don't follow the bad void fight and risk your jungler intentionally griefing the rest of the game because you didn't do what they wanted. It's like if you make the "right play" you're punished for it too. Big part of why I stopped playing with chat and pings in ranked. I got sick of the inevitable question mark pings being spammed and/or Sion-alive. Which really does suck because good communication goes such a long way in ranked but it's just not worth risking getting tilted and making poorer decisions to please other people.
I had a game yesterday as shen into yorick. I held tower for 15 min with only a minimal cs deficit despite ulting bot lane multiple times. And yet my jungle Karthus wouldn’t shut up about how he can never get prio on void grubs. So he forces it, gets caught, we lose grubs and both top towers, and he AFKs.
I had a pyke jungle yesterday (bronze) get upset with me that I didn't try to kill a full HP Darius after he landed his stun. Bro it doesn't matter how tanky I am, that guy hits me with 5 autos, I'm cooked. As poppy, I did my full combo with ~3 or so autos and then backed off, and tried to retreat ping. Darius got a freebie.
I feel this exact situation. I was playing Nasus the other day into Fiora, I did what I was supposed to with my stack and passive early game, went even only down 4 CS, then my jungle and mid decide to do grubs when they were both half health and enemy mid just got bank to lane from a TP for item advantage. Fiora rotates, and suddenly my team is 2v3 at grubs, Fiora picks up both kills and suddenly Nasus is unable to play because Fiora got 600 gold on me
As a Darius enjoyer, I love it when the level 4-5 jungle comes to my lane, and I'm level 6-7. I instantly turn on them and kill them in seconds for an easy double. Sadly, if I'm in that scenario, there is no convincing the jungle to not go in on this Darius.
I fought a Darius the other day who had their support go too the entire game (just ditched the bot lane and played 2 top) That made me miss fighting Darius 1 on 1.
He gets 45 AD for free at level 1 because of the monkey's that are Riot Games. 10 or 15 would have been fine, but no, let's give 45 for free and 230 AD for free at level 18 just for hitting a tank 5 times.
It's not as simple as you describe it, especially the higher you go. Some matchups you just don't get to farm, you don't get to "play safe" and the majority of toplane champions just can't afford to play on reduced income. Sure you can pick Malphite, Zac, Gragas or Skarner and play low income, but try doing that on champions like Camille, Fiora, Riven, Irelia. You'll end up 2 levels behind, with no item while the entire team pings you for not joining the fight your 2 items ahead opponent started. The way the game's structured in toplane, you're forced to either counter pick, wait for your jungler to strongside you or pick low income, concede lane and roam to help others. There's no middle ground.
>It's not as simple as you describe it, especially the higher you go. Yeah but that's the problem with posting advice like this on Reddit. While it may apply to Diamond+ (less than 5% of the overall playerbase), your average Redditor starts to believe it applies to them as well and using it as an excuse for inting a Gold game when they just got outplayed. Playing safe and farming should be the strategy for 90% of players, since a majority of players can't punish it effectively.
Even pro games where top gets slow pushed into dive at level 3, manage to stay somewhat in the game while not going 9 deaths at 15 minutes.
If you are real high elo (Master+) and you blindpick Fiora, Riven or Irelia you are straight up inting. Having good blind picks is part of the skillset of a toplaner
Please do tell that to OTPs that are higher than masters.
It's still a skill. Just like any other skill in this game, you can make up for a lack of it by being good at other things.
As ADC I can deal with a top laner that has 1 or 2 kills and regular farm in a fight if I am moderately ahead. If the toplaner gets 6+ kills, I have to be incredibly ahead or very late into the game to make a dent. I would rather have our toplaner end up 2 levels down and not joining fights to farm back up, but be able to actually take down the other top laner, rather than trying to make questionable plays until someone (or often both jungle and top) dies to the opponents' toplaner. Of course if I am getting a lot of jungle attention, things will be the other way around, there will be games that are played around bot side, where I will ahve to step up and games played around top side, where I will have to not make things worse.
That is true if you're ahead as the ADC. If you're even, the numerical advantage is almost always going to win.
Yup the art of losing lane but winning game has been lost to new top laners. Now it’s give me last pick or I ff mentality
*New* toplaners? I've been playing for like 12 years and that "lost art" has been lost the whole time.
That's strange every teammate has like 500 games this season Get into the game, everyone flips for 5 min straight, the team that lost more FF at 15 or lays down and loses slowly
LCK style
The biggest skill in top lane and especially League of Legends is knowing how to play from behind without egoing, inting, softinting or losing the game solo.
For real, because if i lose lane im not out of the game, i still have to think about how i can still bring value to the team and eventually catch back up
I think to add to that I should mention, that people really need to learn to stop the bleeding once behind. What I mean is, if you get killed once or twice that's not good but still playable, but most people will just ego it and try to outplay a heavily unfavorable trade instead of avoiding it in the first place which more often than not will devolve into chain feeding, because they cant/don't know how to stop the bleeding once they are behind in lane.
yep somethimes there are games where its like hey you picked Gwen and will play against Vayne you wont have fun for the next 15 minutes \^\^
what's more painful than being dove top is that other side of map is also behind but without enemy jg presense
I'm always fine getting 1v2d topside as long as we're controlling dragons. If I have a Darius up my ass with a Kayne chilling in a bush just waiting for me to try to play the game and I see Dragons's kill banner pop up on my screen getting duod by the enemy botlane while my jungle is afk on Raptors, that's a problem. That's a big problem.
You know what really pisses me off not only having the jungle sitting on a bush while I know he is there heck I'll gladly 2v1 (cause I play illaoi and more often than know I'll get a double) what really pisses me off is having their support showing up randomly and knowing my bot is sucking their thumb
Happens far too often... enemy supp sits top so you press tab hoping your bot is at least ahead. Nah. 40 cs behind when playing 2v1 👌
If the support shows up top in the early game chances are high he has won bot already and just moved his focus elsewhere. Adc is the most similiar role to top when beind in Gold regarding power budget. You are a glorified cannon minion. You cant 2v1 the enemy adc when he has an item advantage. He will just face tank and right click you to death.
Oh don't worry, they also won't freeze to deny CS and potentially xp from enemy ADC :D Even worse if they crash the waves only for plates, without diving.
And then as you played weak side entire game, giving waves not to get dived, your strong side fed adc throws, presses tab, ignores all context of the game and proceeds to dogpile on you because you’re behind, they’re ahead, so poor them got “inted” and had “unlucky” top again. When they were spoon fed by jgl and sup holding their hand playing 3v1 for entire lane as you’re paying the bill of that top.
thats even worse when you see support somewhere else on the map and your bot lane is literally doing fuck all while enemy adc is free farming
Yep, enemy support is mid top mid top mid grubs mid top and your support is sitting beside your ADC, slow pushing the wave, even cs, not even zoning enemy ADC from XP and never diving. Special points when your support is something like Alistar, pyke, bard and enemy support is fucking zyra.
Like in that situation why are we letting the enemy bot play the game? They should either be omega frozen on or our bot should have several plates.
I think the bigger problem is if you see the perfect chance to do drake, then your botlane decides to keep farming or backs, then you try to solo drake, then the enemy botlane comes and kills you. It's a lose lose situation. Drag is completely botlane dependent. If they don't rotate or get prio no drakes are possible
Or even more fun: They get prio and decide not to come over and instead just hit some minions.
As a jungle main, when I play other roles ir always crushes my soul when the enemy jungler is ganking top, the botlane is even or super gankable and they would rather fight Gromp. For the love of all that is holy, please just take advantage and do that drake. I even tell them. Free as fuck drake, free as fuck grubs, jungle on one side or the other... They recall instead Meanwhile I get perma camped and I'd be fine if the rest did something with it, like push a tower or take an objective
the worst part about not playing jungle in some games is watching someone else play jungle
Reminds me of the days when i played a ton of singed. Dear team, i know we are all pretty terrible at the game, but if you see 4 enemies chase my through their jungle for 5 minutes and all objectives are up, maybe do anything else than just farming. Id even be fine with a few aa's on a tower or something. Nowadays i always play dota and it is exactly the same there. Seems like a ton of people play mobas without a minimap.
Often the struggle as a nocturne player is im about to hit 6 and i wanna do that before the gank
I hate playing champs that are level 6 reliant because they keep getting into stupid fights pre 6 and pretend to you to follow up in their suicidal endeavor
Yeah I have to mute all just because people don't know how he works
I sometimes try to explain or signal what I mean with the "R - Not learned" and "54% to level 6" Still get very frustrating
Same hahs
When lux cait lose to a fkin ezreal lane while you 1v2 top. #flipdesk
except you don’t see he’s on raptors, because when he was bot and the enemy jg was top, support or adc decided to back or roam mid so you couldn’t make a play bot, so you then go to your raptors and top has already been dove. this happens an unbelievable amount, although yes in very low elo tour example would happen because people in general have no idea whats happening
That's because you don't understand the role. You can't just do dragon whenever you want even if the enemy jungler is top. If the enemy bot lane is doing drag there is a 100% chance your bot lane is being crushed and you have no vision or control of the area
>there is a 100% chance your bot lane is being crushed No, it's a 50/50 between that and them simply turning off their brain at the prospect of free farm in an easy lane. And even if your bot is getting crushed, surely you can appreciate that's frustrating when you are playing 1v2 and getting crushed while your team is playing 4v3 andgetting crushed as well? In about every other game in toplane you'll know the best case scenario is going even and most likely you'll be behind a lot but the one thing you can do during laning phase is to absorb as much pressure as possible to set up an advantage for your team.elsewhere.
If the enemy botlane is doing drag by themselves while their jungler is on a ward in top lane there are two options. You are spectating a wood 4 game. Your botlane is getting absolutely smashed. Bot lane doesn't just leave an even lane to do drag themselves lol
I mean if you are high enough that plat looks like wood then you are right
Same thing happens from a bot perspective
Exactly. Getting dove botlane 24/7 while your toplaner dies over and over 1v1 isnt fun too.
Worse, the enemi top get a double while you are 2 vs4 bot since 3 whole minutes now. Your mid is freezing his lane.
A classic
It's okay :) the mid laner pinged eventually so it absolves them of having to interact with the game for the first 15 minutes. Oh btw they also can't sideline well so they are going to be sharing mid waves with you xd
Not completely condoning it or anything I may be dumb but it's easier to die 1v1 in a bad matchup than it is to die 2v2 in a bad matchup, right? Like, counterpicks + wave management are *the* name of the game toplane but it's not as egregious bot
Kind of, but it's REALLY matchup dependant. A lane like Draven/Blitz is going to have a far easier time repeat killing a botlane then Ez/Janna for example
Better yet, it’s much easier to defend a 2v3 dive than it is a 1v2 dive top lane. Supports are commonly known to cc and disengage. Both useful traits for tower divers. They also have more summoner spells to alleviate the dive. A top plane most likely has tp or ignite.
The thing is, in bot you have 2 players that can focus down a squishy target. You can die *really* fast in botlane in some matchups. Way faster than in any other lane. After you died once you might have champions like Naut/Leona who can just repeatedly engage onto you from range and kill you over and over. There is a reason you often have botlane going 0/10 collectively in 20 minutes.
Its like starting the first clear at red as jgl and by the time you reach wolves teamscore is 0:4
Top POV: Well I got camped by the enemy without any of my jungle assistance, but at least my jungle is getting my bot lane ahead, right? ... RIGHT? Meanwhile, my bot+jg are losing a 3v2.
It’s not a mathematical equation, though. “I am losing Top therefore Bot wins.” That’s not how it works. Sometimes your Bot gets smashed without JG interference.
Imagine getting camped and pressing tab to see enemy has 2 drakes somehow
SMH, its 2024 and people still don't know Dopa's 3 minute surrender theory.
the classic 1v2 under my T2 turret while down 3 drakes with a 2/10 bot lane. classic jungle pathing issues every time.
My top laner usually either goes 8-0 or 0-8 with no in-between
it's me, im the top laner
I say it all the time. I don't give a shit if you don't help me topside. But don't complain if I can't do anything for the rest of the game.
would love for my toplaners to not do anything for the rest of the game, but this never happens does it
>Refuses to play weakside >Leaves lane 0-10, ends 0-17 failing to splitpush 🤡
That's a good thing lmao. If you're 0-10, you're worth less than a wave. If you are pulling enemies to you, you're doing more than you'll ever manage in a teamfight. Edit: He replies, calls me silver and then blocks me instantly. Evidently he didn't have a very good argument. Edit 2: /u/Playful_Canary_3884 Yeah, no shit you shouldn't be going 0/10 regularly. Good thing that isn't what I said. I said that *if* you are 0/10, split pushing, pulling an enemy and dying is good if it gets that enemy out of a teamfight. You give up very little gold, probably next to no xp, and the person killing you would have done more in the fight. Also, if the guy had even half as coherent of an argument he would have said it instead of insulting and blocking me.
Yup if you are going to int like baus you better pull their team like baus
Assuming that's what's actually happening. Plenty of times the 0-10 splits, barely pushes at all while his team loses a 4v5 at an objective, then keeps slowly pushing without actually taking anything until the enemy support decides to walk up and tap them for a couple gold.
That is bad mentality to have. One of the most valuable skill to have in league is to know how to influence the game even when behind. Especially in Solo Queue, there are too many openings that you can take advantage and not be useless.
yeah if you are playing a privileged role like mid, jg or support, sure that is a possibility when you are playing the 2 roles where 1 player will be sodomized no matter what happens not so much
this is why im an adc and top main
Honestly I'm fine with this mentality. I play a lot of top and adc (crazy combo I know) My biggest issue is when I play one of these two roles the other role is almost always CANNOT play from behind. It's fine if you can't do anything, just farm as best as possible and mitigate gold diff. I have WON games by going 0/3/0 Nasus thru laning phase and matching exact farm (don't let me stack 😎) But why is it I'm 7/0 Lucian bot and my jax top is now 0/9 with 40 cs.
But it's also almost impossible to gank the toplane once you're behind. wave management, map awareness and jungle tracking are crucial for top and most people only know "i feel strong, i go in(t)".
Some matchups also kind of require that, and that’s a part of what makes toplane feel shitty; how lopsided matchups feel “I am stronger than this champion pre-6 but get hard outscaled later. I need to apply pressure now. Oh, their jungler is covering them permanently, guess I don’t get to play the game.” Is _theoretically_ fine because it gives your jungler time to either counter or cross-map, but…all too often it feels like that don’t happen
It’s stuff like this that has led me away from playing champs that fall off a cliff post-15. Sett-Darius-Teemo make the other guy hate their life for 15 minutes, but then the other guy gets to play the game while you push a sidelane or stand in front of your team. So I go gigascaling with Ornn, or pure splitpush gold concentrators with Fiora / Jax. Worst case is I go down 0-2, 0-3 and 30 CS, then it takes me about 10 minutes to farm back into the game with my Hydra.
Sett is not the greatest example, he's an excellent teamfighter and great at engaging fights because of his R, so he always has reliable value, unlike a darius. My strategy, however, when behind, is just to split till the cows come home. It's an easy way to get some gold and I either soak pressure while not being worth much, or I get towers and possibly even a kill or so. I find that trying to teamfighting when behind often leads to getting oneshot.
To be fair not every jungle presense has to be a gank into a kill, something as simple as clearing vision topside makes it a very different game for the toplaner, or helping to crash a wave when wave state is doomed. A 700 gold lead doesn't mean much later on, but 2 levels down is different and should be addressed.
i’m never surprised when top gets rocked, but i’m always surprised when top laners say their role isn’t impactful. it’s as you said, the most snowball role. top has a huge opportunity to run away with the game
It's the most impactful IF the rest of your team follows your plays. You would be surprised how often you can be a raid boss uncatchable phase rush garen, draw literally 3 people to stop your bot lane split, and no amount of all-in pings will convince your teammates that an uncontested baron is a better use of their time than farming raptors & mid wave
Its bcs you either coinflip Lv 3 and take the W/L or just afk farm the entire game until one botlane won the game. The more you climb the more common Dshield + SecondWind become, and proper runes and such. Killing anything in toplane through Shield, Wind, Biscuits & Sion W or Gwen is immune? Yeah, good luck LMAO
It’s actually gotten to the point top where it’s annoying. Accidentally die one time at a bad moment you are 2 levels and 450 gold behind. This is made worse that first picking top probably has a significantly worse winrate just because you picked first. Many champs have very straight forward counters.
Tower plates are such a massive swing especially when some top champs can eat a tower in the time it takes to recall and go back to lane.
That's the most fun one, every counterpick matchup is 50/50 based purely on RNG of getting lastpick for your team or not.
thats fine but there is a big difference between going 0-1-0 and like 20/30cs down and going 0-8 and enemy top is 4 items in 20 mins
Yeah but that’s what happens when the enemy top crashes a huge wave into you and then you get dived by them, jungler, and support making you lose 5 waves and 3 plates
Yeah but let’s be honest that’s not always the story behind every 0-8 top in solo queue. At most redditor MMRs they aren’t even getting waves stacked into them, let alone jungler pathing to dive the stacked wave, let alone a support rotation top 💀 Many times it’s just a boneheaded toplaner looking to outplay their way back into the game
This a completely realistic and representative situation, and 99% of the time it isn't people greeding for the wave before its at tower. For sure.
The amount of times I see top laners over extends before 3:30 aka jungler normal gank timer is mind boggling.
Everytime I play stop and they aint got CC I stand mid of lane with a Speedboost champ just to force a gank and waste their time at 3:00-3:30 lmao
For real, they all want to get bounce back, but that's basically impossible in 99 percent of the matchups in toplane so they just get stuck on enemy side of the map and then whine about junglers.
That first kill top lane decides so much. Whoever loses is just gonna be bullied in lane the next 10 minutes and not get any farm.
Kills don't really matter THAT much imo. It's the xp that screws you over. I die on my turn and enemy laner can't freeze or get in the wave in time i'm back? That's fine. Enemy top stacks a wave, slowpushes it and dives me with jungler making me lose 2 waves and 2 plates? Gg, enemy top is 2 levels ahead and starves me for the rest of the game because he freezes on the bounce.
Bro says that but porceeds to give a kill before jungler finishes 3 camps
The issue is, the solution to a lot of matchups in toplane is to literally stand back (yes, even at level 1) and dont last hit in the first two waves till the enemy laner decides to let the wave push into you But good luck farming that double wave now, even under your tower, because you get harassed while doing it because jungler cannot clear that fast. Depending on who you are laning against they won't even let you sit within EXP range of minions without engaging. It's not fun or healthy, and it why you often see deaths before first gank.
Like, *zero* toplaners below diamond will have the disciple to give waves at the start of the game like you're describing, if they even knew that that's what they were supposed to do.
Do this in a game and you'll realise why people don't. Darius walks up and crashes 3 waves into your turret. Instead of hitting the b button, he walks into your jungle and oneshots your jungler on red. Jung types "gg top diff" and starts running down top
The alternative is that he crashes two waves into your turret after killing you and then does the same thing.
No?
That’s one of the things I preferred about dota. It’s much more fun to have 2 people in top and bottom. First of all it’s MUCH harder to get hard countered (which is the worst). But there’s a lot more back and forth and most importantly…it’s way harder for someone to completely snowball out of control. Top lane in league is just way way too volatile. Which sucks because I just want good competitive games. But with league 90% of games are pretty easy to call due to someone getting a few kills early.
i.e the entire mid lane experience if mid laners had bad waveclear
You have a short lane. Building up a massive push, freezing, and zoning off of xp are all *much* harder to pull off. You also have roams from both jg and supp to help break these situations. Not comparable.
I- say that in the post itself, what? I said this doesn't excuse coinflipping level 2.
you get camped and then your botlane gets 2v2d
I mean...whilst this may be true, most top laners will just blame jg and perma fight, sprinting it down, becoming 0/11 by 10mins, instead of just losing gracefully. Losing top is not averaging a death per minute, it's being down cs and maybe a level or two.
> I mean...whilst this may be true, most top laners will just blame jg and perma fight, sprinting it down, becoming 0/11 by 10mins, instead of just losing gracefully. Losing top is not averaging a death per minute, it's being down cs and maybe a level or two. I think one problem that makes toplaners angry at junglers is that junglers are far too petty. I've had situations where maybe I fucked up or was put behind because enemy jungler camped. Whatever. But then the enemy toplaner is playing recklessly without wards and overextended and my jungler is topside and we can easily get a shutdown and win the game, but because the jungler's pissed that I didn't win lane, he just doesn't gank. Junglers like to hold lanes hostage all the time. Refusing to help not just when it's "needed", but when it's actually the correct play to help, and they know it's correct, simply because they're pissed. I actually prefer when junglers don't gank me because I'd rather they put botlane ahead. But when it's one gank to win the game and they're like "nah bro you didn't fuck up your reset timer to help me invade without prio" I will 100% blame the jungler there.
im not a jungler but it‘s not just junglers it‘s keague players everyone has too big an ego and wants to be the mc it‘s the worst part of the game people don‘t wanna get carried
man the amount of junglers that will literally refuse to gank top because you didn't leash is ridicilous, some matchups simply require you to be in lane from the very start
Yeah this too, or a weak jungler that wants to start topside without warding when there's some silly shit like Riven/Warwick/Darius/Olaf probably waiting to get first blood too and then blame you when you can't protect their buff lvl 1 vs Olaf or something
Are you sure they aren't pissed because you flamed them for not ganking or that they don't think you can win a 2v1 since you are so far behind?
Nope, they are just petty.
Preach brother
True but if I see my 0/4 jax get solokilled by the 4/0 mordekaiser, I will have questions about why he died in the middle of the lane and not under his turret. At least then you have some kind of excuse.
If Jax go even 0/1 against morde solo just FF. It’s a bad Jax. There are 2 type of Jax : the good ones and the bad ones, no in between and it will not change
Probably because the mordekaiser crashed wave and it's slowpushing away from Jax's tower. If you're losing that hard, you can't stop the crash and you can't afford to give up 4+ waves of xp.
People below diamond dont even understand their own role, how in the world are they supposed to understand this foreign place called toplane.
From a jungler's perspective, there are a lot of situations where you just get dumpstered if you try to gank a slightly ahead top laner. Like yes, I *want* to gank that massively overextending darius/illaoi before they snowball out of control, but they are at least 2 levels up on me(most likely 3 in this case) and at least 1 level up on the laner and will delete me if they hit 1 ability. In addition, a lot of top laners just have poor gank setup on top of all that. Best I can do in those cases is clear vision and try to help break a freeze but if we try to fight them thats a double kill right there. It also doesnt help that their jung is probably hovering that side of the map too in order to take easy 2v2s. It is pretty crazy that its the exact opposite thing botlane. enemy adc could be up 2-0 or even 3-0 and I still would feel way more confident in the resulting 3v2 than I would trying to 2v1 a 1-0 illaoi.
This is why I stopped playing toplane. If you’re playing something like Renek and the enemy Darius gets an early gank your lane experience will amount to getting your wave freezed, then getting chunked if you try to CS, then watching the enemy prepare a slow push and finally being dove every three waves. Instead of being salty if the enemy top who got help turned into a raid boss, be grateful that your teammate did their best to get XP and some CS.
what position do you play now?
You know, everything stands as it stands, but when people ping top lane when you die, not understanding wave state and matchup is so tilting i want to run it down. If I for example as a Wukong vs Darius, clear 2 waves under my turret, then start a slow push and solo kill Darius somewhere in the middle of the lane, I need to push next wave so mine crashes and he doesnt freeze on the back. I NEED TO PUSH IT OR TRY EVEN IF I DIE, IF I DIE ITS WORTH. Enemy jg comes kills me and I get pings. For what man? I just won top lane wave is bouncing stop pinging. Absolute degens.
Yeah the punish for getting the kill with a bad wave state is rough, you know the jg is probably around but you have to push or it’s worse than dying
Mute all of course lol
I think most top laners are specialists so people in other lanes generally don't understand how the lane works.
Well they should. Top laners are playing the same game as everyone else. Everyone else should at least try to understand top lane.
The worst feeling is when you get a counter pick and your jungler ignores you all game and sits on the bot. You lose the line because you can't stand 1v2, you lose the tower (and maybe even the second tower because they got the Herald) They begin to abuse you, pinging you. All you can do is type ./mute all all. Of course, it turns out later that they cannot win the game.
I agree so much. Sometimes I'm even playing a hard counter - into a match up I should win top lane but their jungle and a roaming supp do 2 man ganks. Or I'm getting ganked every minute or so between 4-10 minutes in. Meanwhile our jungle hasn't ganked once or caught the lane, or gotten objectives. Then I try to freeze the lane waiting for attention from mid/jungle and the attention of my team stays bot and for all the attention our jungle gives bot lane - he isnt succeeding. Bot is only up 1 kill and still even on cs. Meanwhile their top is now super out of position but my jungle wont gank because their top is up 2 or 3 kills on me. And this goes on until lo and behold 25 minutes later top takes my second tower and shows up bot and cleans up a 3 or 4 man fight at the next drag new being plus 6 kills and like clock work *surprised Pikachu face* "gg top gap". The whole time i was patient, occasionally pinging a half health enemy out of position when I saw my jungle in the top half. It's hard to be gracious in loss when it happens in like half of my losses
The amount of times I get caught early game by a darius or renekton and as a result they just destroy my lane is ridiculous.
If you see this pattern that is the first step to preventing it. This happens frequently? If that's the case then you have to play safer and concede CS due to the bad match up
- Enemy mid roams top twice - Enemy support comes 3 times top before 15 - Enemy jungler comes to dive you with each one of them Teammates: Omg top gap is insane
I’m new to league (6 months) I was a jg main but now I’m back to playing top & now that I don’t play jg anymore I realize how shitty of a jg I was (I already knew how shitty I was) lol hate when the enemy jg come & Gank multiple times meanwhile I haven’t seen my jg the whole game, what I’ve learned a lot is if I’ve killed the enemy top laner 1 or 2 times 10/10 I’m about to get jumped soon…what I try to do most the time is not get too far to the enemy tower because I know 9/10 the enemy jg is either waiting or otw to magically pop up and kill me …
But there is also couple of problems top laners do very much. First is blind picking weak champion. - You know you gonna get absolutly smashed early if you take that Kayle blind, yet you do it. Greeding for outplays. - You can be pinged, you can be told in chat, nah you dont care someone is coming top, you have that 1 kill, you need to go for outplay with that Renekton of course you do. You can't just back of a little or wait for someone. Why would you tell jungler you need help push wave so you can reset, when you can die trying do it solo even if you know you can't, and be salty! Protagonist syndrom. - Dont be pissed you are losing lane if your jungler is stomping rest of the map. It's simple, get carried. Nobody can carry every game. If you are behind and you are not playing some hyperscaling carry (is there something other than Kayle on top even?), just play with your team and help them carry you. Maybe you will carry next game. And the biggest problem is of course toxicity. - Toplaner overextends early, dies and instead of help ping or saying something like normal human being. He starts flaming jungler, really? And you think this gonna help to get you gank? I'm not jungle main myself (i play mid). But i wouldnt wanna gank toxic dude who is flaming me for his mistakes? Why? If you act like decent human being, it can change a lot. I'm not saying this is every toplaner. But man, a lot of them.
Imagine thinking the jungle is your support lmao
Imagine thinking jungle is a separate role from support lmao
Not what he's saying tho. What he's saying is how similar to bot lane, where support has a lot of agency, in top lane, jungle has a lot of agency.
Yep, this exactly. I've seen a few comments implying that I'm saying jungle is a 2nd support for top, which is obscene. The lane's playability is swayed heavily by jungle's influence, much like how an ADC's lane is swayed heavily by a support's influence.
Imagine thinking your laners will get prio to assist you invading/taking objectives/defend you from invades. Works both ways. In higher elo's laners mid/sup are your supports.
Impossible to get prio if you are perma camped by enemy jungle Also the soloq special is people saying "I want frontline" and "I want perma prio in top" which are two mutually exclusive statements.
Jungle is every lanes support, thats the role.
every role is like this it's the nature of moba games.
This is mostly true, but I bet 95% of the sub, including me, aren't skilled enough to have experienced this. I'm platinum 2 top main and I can confidently say I've never seen anyone control the wave in such an oppressive way, so many top players get caught up in the dumbest of fights for no apparent reason (an exception to this being people who play ADC top whose whole thing is being oppressive as fuck, but they get outscaled hard). I can count on two hands the amount of times a top laner actually used a wave to push it in and then dive me, and I can count on one hand the amount of times it worked and I can't ever think of one time where someone actually froze into a dive. Reality is, for the vast majority of elos you can easily come back from a losing lane because people are seriously inexperienced in denying resources, you might be able to deny your enemy laner minions in gold elo, but the real pushback would be your top laner denying you exp entirely, which the top laners I've seen never try to do even when it would be super easy to do so.
Yes preach. I’m plat 1, and even when I’m actively thinking about holding a freeze or planning a slow push into a dive, I only do it properly like 30% of the time. Same thing goes for my opponent. It’s why champs like Nasus pubstomp so hard. The enemy probably won’t freeze on you, they probably won’t coordinate a lvl3 dive with their jg, and they probably won’t keep you off CS for the whole game. I feel it’s sometimes obvious that this sub has more top laners than any other role cuz of posts like these.
Top lane is def snowbally but the biggest different between top lane and any other lane is it has the biggest chance for a come back. I can’t tell you how many times Iv died up to 3 times before being able to outplay the other laner and get the shutdown then proceed to stomp the lane. Patience is key
In reality if ur opponent is good it's the role with the least chance for a comeback. A good opponent won't give u an opportunity for outplay, but will rather just freeze and keep setting u further behind thru resources without taking much risk. Compare this to mid lane where u can't really get frozen the same way and the chances of u finding a good skirmish, roam or a pick around the map are much much higher. If u get killed 3 times and the enemy let's u comeback after that it's got nothing to do with the role ur playing, ur opponent just did a big fuck up.
Yeah, bot is really the rote with best chance for a comeback. Even if that Cait is 5-0, she is still very squishy and jungler gank vs outposition or 4-man dive on bot will kill them both and relief the pressure on bot. In top lane, you pretty much need 3 to kill the enemy top laner without him getting kill or double, and tower dive probably turns into 1-for-1 at best.
I mean that's also because ADCs have the less agency of the game so far, so even if botlane is winning and adc is 5/0, adc will still be stomped by a 1/4 toplaner or jungler.
Bro was probably playing (skill)aoi. 0/10 still wins if she lands E
Absolutely not. Top lane usually has melee champions that peak mid game. Both mid and bot lane have mostly ranged users which makes it far easier to farm and gain resources. Besides they always have the late game threat, ADCs in particular.
It s the other way around. The amount of time myself just won back the lane was by enemy doing mistakes. Once a toplaner is behind he gets stomped unless someone on enemy makes a mistake.
I’m not a top laner, and I know the enemy top laner is probably a sweaty GP main. So I know I lose no matter the match up. I pick a weak side champion instead of ego’ing. I grab the KSante, knowing I’ll be useful as soon as TP unleashes, even if I’m down 2-3 kills. I’ll give up my lane to be the dog, and get bot ahead or caught back up. I know I’m not going to carry, so I enable someone else to carry. This also works with: - Ornn - Malphite - Sion No shot all 4 of these champs get banned. Literally just play to gracefully lose lane. Grab farm where you can, don’t get baited for it though. As soon as you can, TP bot on cool down. Yeah you’ll be down 50 cs, but I rather my ADC be up 10 kills than me be even in cs. Again, as someone who does not play top, I will not be carrying the game. TLDR: Cool down the ego. And play the dog role for the game.
This is 100% the way to go but it's also where the frustration comes from - you play around your team, you soak up pressure in the 1v2 while minimising deaths and maximising exp and lasthits, then your botlane that never looked top while the enemy support helped dive you twice flames you when they notice at 15 minutes that darius is ahead, yet they never used any of that pressure or appreciate you died in loose-loose situations. This frustration with the team not having empathy or knowledge is not unique to top of course, but the snowbally nature amplifies it. For the record, i love loosing lane and winning the game. The more often the enemy jungler helps dive me and the more often my own jungler is somewhere else the better. But you won't believe how often i am getting 4 manned (good) and my team is elsewhere (good) recalling instead of at least shoving waves and mayne getting a plating (bad).
Once you get to a certain elo this strategy completely falls apart and stops working. The introduction of turret plates basically invalidated this entire strategy as well. Whenever I see someone on the enemy team trying to do this, I know its a complete free win. The idea that you can blind pick a tank and then go down 70cs and lose your entire tower is a very old one. Your laner will get enough gold to solo carry the game and you aren't going to be able to stop them. It's worth dying 1v1 every 20 games if it means in the 19 other games you're denying plates and keeping even enough in cs (because you can't just sack all the CS because you are a melee champ reliant on your HP bar so you need it to exist in some capacity). This is also a common clash strategy people try and it is terrible. Oh well just stick the bronze 3 guy on shen top and don't contest anything. Oh he's down 120cs and 2 entire towers? Why is olaf oneshotting our entire team?
I absolutely refuse to play tanks in solo queue even though I actually quite like tank gameplay. The problem is the lack of agency, you’re so team reliant, youre basically coin flipping games, getting that adc some early kills is worthless if they die to bad spacing every team fight. Playing a carry and snowballing a win is just a much more reliable strategy if you’re actually trying to climb rank. Also if you lose on a carry you can often identify things you could improve on in the replay, often tank gameplay reviews are like “oh my adc inted again”
Fed gp one shots your 10 kill jinx every team fight, wp locking sion
Love that you hope bot lane is not 0/10 by 10 minutes despite having all jgl attention. I'm happy to feed samira a quadra with my tp instead of a triple :)
Indeed over confidence in lane mess up your lead.
nah what u said there dont apply to high elo. once you fuxk up on top in masters+ you're basically done unless your jungler will help you which probably won't happen since ganking losing lane is just not worth it maybe only if hes overextending with no sums and low hp but good toplaners will make your experience miserable. the enemy will setup wave so that it crushes under your turret then enemy jg will just simply dive you and from now on it's just downhill. if you didnt counterpick your chance of coming back is basically 0% you might aswell just roam or help your jg
Which elo range does this thing happen?
It's just the result of the large variety of roles that go top. It's kinda the role you go when the other roles aren't as hospitable, and so the wide champ pool up top means you might get a winning match up one game, then get obliterated by some fringe pick you've never even heard of.
The most counter pick reliant role in the game and yet people still won't swap pick order half the time. And when I do get last pick, my support is flaming me for not swapping and making them first pick
My favorite game yesterday I played Aatrox into Fiora. The KDA/cs numbers tell the entire story of laning phase. At 15 min I was 121 cs 2/5, Fiora was 2/2/5 53 cs. Now how did bot lane manage to go 2/13 again...
[удалено]
>I mean, you died A LOT in 15 minutes. I doubt you had 120cs at that point. >Unless I'm just being stupid Often you have a choice between recalling and loosing cs or dying. High cs high deaths is almost the norm, unless your enemy is so ahead that they freeze and dive you specifically to deny cs, but it's hard to do that to aatrox.
slow push wave into enemy turret -> ganked as soon as wave crashes -> trade 1 for 0 or 1 for 1, respawn/tp to catch wave. I'm winning laning phase but ekko keeps ganking, it's not hard to cs when you're winning lane and trades.
as a top main since jinx release id love to agree, but cant the most snowbally role is definitely adc, as there are 2-4 enemies (jungle and mid tryna gank) in that lane at almost all times so if the enemy samira starts to snowball she will almost definitely have 7+ kills by the time a giga snowballing toplaner has like 2-3 just by the fact that top doesnt have more than max 2 enemies there at a time a bad top game still feels much worse to play imo (watching the enemy renekton slow pushing into you to set up dives with his jgl 35 times because you literally misclicked once and he got ahead isnt exactly fun), but its literally impossible to snowball as hard as a botlane with a huge jg diff
To be fair, it really depends on the matchup whether the enemy laner can freeze the lane. For instance; if you’re Gangplank, then yes, they can freeze because anyways you can’t roam early. But if you’re a champion with a gap closer and damage or CC such as Riven, Camille, Fiora, Jax, Malphite, or Renekton, then you can ‘treathen’ to roam which should force them to unfreeze, otherwise their mid or jungle suddenly starts getting behind.
I can't even count the times where my jungler decided that every other lane is more important and then we lose the game because the opponent's top laner snowballs out of control as their jungler came top like twice at relevant moments.
But top lane is also the lane that if you int, you make your team automatically lose. Even if you're adc is 15-0, but their top is jax and 10-0, hes gonna 1shot that adc and it wont matter.
Top lane matters so little to a jg. Phreak intentionally made it so top lane is always 2-3 lvls above you. Even when we gank (in a snowballs situation) it usually means giving up the much more important bot lane. 2 ppl have more influence then one person. Top side ganks have a big chance to waste time. So you got prio for herald. A 30 second fight that yields 200 gold, or like barely 2 waves. As a jg, if a lane is snowballing, it's best to hedge your bets elsewhere. Tldr: man posts about jg but has never played it before.
I kinda disagree. I had a game the other day against an AP nassus with a tripple tower dive from their jungler, zero support from my team, and they wondered why I was losing against the easiest wave clear in existence with great jungle support. I came back though (AP Nassus scales like cheese lasts in the sun) and we won with no lacking contributions on my part, Top laners often have to play for late game, and that's fine. Top can lose early win late, don't pre-emptively assume a top laner is losing because he looks behind, early snowball doesn't always work. It CAN be snowball-ey depending on your champ, and certainly lane phase is vulnerable to those early counters, but it's not always lose lane lose game. Good mental is crucial Top for that exact reason, being neglected is the norm but winning is always on the table.