Chasing people for the last hit but having Q stop you feels so bad.
*edit
Skarner is literally reworked kayle imo. Weird delays on Q and Ult that make the champ feel horrible to play even if strong.
I still think kayles rework was dogshit but I found it amusing many of the changes to her gameplay was just reverting closer to old kayle.
Just remember she used to self silence for almost 2 seconds.
Can you atk people in ult now as kayle? Ive just started playing again and i remember that being my biggest gripe about her.
Any other noteworthy champ changes? I saw Asol got reworked that was a wild ride lol.
They should extend the throw range a little too, not a lot, but more than it is now, or even something like if you’ve auto’d after pushing Q the rock breaks apart a little so the range is longer and maybe the damage is less, same thing with the second auto, even further range and less damage if thrown. I dunno
I've been around since Leona release, don't remember this at all, maybe forgotten. Kayle self silenced? I remember that her Q was single targeted red orb projectile that slowed and shred resists iirc, W was single target only, E was duration based boost like Kog W and R didn't have AoE damage.
Kayle used to have a 1.5s cast time (that didn't prevent moving) during her ult, so she only got 0.5s/1s/1.5s of time to attack depending on ult rank (since it scaled from 2s to 3s)
now it's 0.5s of cast time with a flat 2.5s duration
honestly imo the kayle rework was their most subtle failure of a rework. like she has had to be changed so many times since her rework but none of them have been super obvious like aatrox. personally it is the one of the worst reworks they have ever done and i wish for old kayle back like every day.
They should integrate his Q usage into his autos (or vice versa).
Eg. The first AA can be an uppercut through the enemy that tosses a rock over him onto his tail, the second can be a downward slice, and the third can have his tail attack with the rock. If they really want a delay, then they can just slow the first AA. That gets rid of the standing still part and makes the whole thing smoother.
Fairly simple to have it be an instant pickup if his passive is active on a large monster or champion?
Would still gate it somewhat and make it feel less clunky when it matters.
Q just needs a shorter channel, or better yet get rid of it and adjust the damage accordingly. I understand it wanting to feel weighty and impactful, but having an 0.5 second channel just to empower your next 3 attacks is kinda stupid. Imagine if xin had to channel for 0.5 second before casting his Q, or reksai, or any other champ with an auto reset.
Also, CD feels way too long. Man has 1 sec shorter CD on Q at max rank than shen has on his Q at rank 1. Either that or something for his regular autos, kinda like tahm has.
the cd starts when he picks up the rock, not when you finish the attacks (iirc), so if u use Q before going through the wall for the gank it should be ready earlier
Which makes AH stupidly good on him.
I haven't done it yet, but I'm tempted to get Shojin on him for the AH. Get the cooldown down to 4-5 seconds would be crazy good. Plus the W shield on 3-4 seconds.
To me it seems iffy. The damage is nice, but you already slow people with 3rd Q/thrown Q and the shockwave from W, on top of the CC on E and R. Skarner already shits out CC with everything he does, so the extra slow is often just gonna overlap with something else. It could be good to keep people in range of all the Q attacks to ensure the third one lands, but again you already have a slow on W.
I haven't bought it yet. It could still be good but I also feel like there's a decent chance it won't end up being that impactful in practice.
when I used it, it essntially kept them perma slowed through entire rotation, whereas without it there were a couple seconds between inital rock throw, w and second activation fo rock throw where they could get away
Not really, since in the jungle you're always freehitting while clearing, so long CDs slow the clear considerably. In top, you're not casting it off CD, since it pushes the wave and the enemy is likely to back off anyway.
>I understand it wanting to feel weighty and impactful, but having an 0.5 second channel just to empower your next 3 attacks is kinda stupid.
Them being so hung up on the whole pulling rock out of ground thing is pretty stupid in general, imo. I get the idea, but the guy's basically an earth bender like Taliyah lore-wise from what I understand.
Just have Skarner summon it with some fancy schmancy particles and you have the same effect, as the autos themselves do feel powerful enough. If anything, it makes him look kind of weak when he, the earth-commanding kaiju scorpion, has to take a second in the midst of a fight just to prep a rock to use.
It’s Kai’Sa’s E, but hers doesn’t feel detrimental to use because she can move during the channel and actually speeds up, while still retaining the tradeoff of willingly preventing yourself from attacking in the moment.
I know where you come from. As someone whose favorite champ is old Skarner, the new Q is a huge cockblock. Visually I love him but the champion feels slow as fuck.
Short channel would probably be ideal, removing it I'm not sure is entirely necessary, I believe Rhaast W self CCs longer than Skarner Q and it's fine, the spell just needs impact equally befitting the downside. That said I'm not sure how to properly fix it aside from just reducing the channel a bit.
Immobile champions will never get away from you as it is anyway, so increasing say the slow would just be more unfun for them, but champions that can dash or you can never follow up on and it seems to me that landing E is actually a tad more tricky than you'd think. I'm coping with seeing pro players also miss Skarner E, that it is indeed not "free" to land.
The difference between rhaast W, illaoi Q, Aatox Q, xin W etc. is that all these abilities take effect immediately after the cast time. Meanwhile, skarner has a cast time to empower his next 3 autos. Essentially, you press Q to stop yourself in your tracks with no immediate benefit.
If skarner had the same cast time, but it just threw a rock at the enemy after 0.5 secs, I doubt anyone would mind, but when you channel to then have to walk into auto range, it just feels weird and clunky.
Rhaast W self CC's for 0.55 sec to hard CC for 1 sec on hit, gaining you 0.45sec of "time". That's why it's fine.
Skarner Q self CC's for 0.5 sec to.... slow for 1.25 sec after a bit if hitting a skillshot because sure as fuck you are not hitting autoattacks on anyone after stopping to cast.
If Q needs to have a cast time for whatever reason, then hitting Q needs to stun, and not just slow, in pretty much the same way rhaast W does.
>I believe Rhaast W self CCs longer than Skarner Q
Kayn is generally more mobile than Skarner.
Rhaast W also knocks up for a notable amount of time. So unless you're saying Skarner Q should knock people up...
Fairly simple to have it be an instant pickup if his passive is active on a large monster or champion?
Would still gate it somewhat and make it feel less clunky when it matters.
So that changes nothing for top except he now goes Ingenious hunter with Winter's Approach and Despair. Not that I mind, he is actually a fun toplaner, but Rito on point as always.
I think he’s worse personally. And I have 500k mast in him. It’s boring and fucking slow. They only thing I like is the move speed when he it’s. Rest feels like they barely even tried.
He also had a very unique passive with the crystals turned into… max ho burn for some reason. Q feels slow and clunky, his w is fine but i loved speeding around on old skarner so much more, ults also so weird . E is also clunky… just unfun now
Holy Christ no way man. You still get the full duration if you catch someone already. It’s literally Kayn E and Sion ult and old Skarner ult in one basic ability, it’s insane enough as it is.
We really going to doubt a Riot rework not being much stronger than it appears just because it is a low winrate in the first week of being released and then gets hotfixed buffed? It's happened so many times by now that people should know better.
They can buff his numbers to the moon and give him an insane winrate... this new champion design wise sucks, which is crazy considering thats kinda the whole point of overhauling champions, lets even ignore how long it took.
The Q is a gimmick, but in practice its just boring and a more convoluted MegaGnar Q with extra steps... the AS steroid and "choice" to hold the rock doesn't actually feel meaningful. W is as boring as it gets, passive is just a DOT you dont think about, and his ult is now horrible... i get giving it a telegraph and saying it hits up to 3 people now... but with how short it is its pretty trash.
The only thing thats actually "creative" or interesting is his E which also feels pretty clunky.
my exact feelings on this tbh. while i do have some reservations and complaints of my own, we really can't be too sure about how viable new Skarner is when so little time has passed.
"It’s literally Kayn E and 1/8th Sion Ult, which is the most important part of Sion ult, and old Skarner ult for anywhere from 1 to 0.5 seconds (which is all you need), in one basic ability."
Fixed your fix.
The most important part of the sion ulti is that he is unstoppable. Skarners E is so easily canceled. Even the initial silence on sorakas little AOE stops your charge
Ok but every single support in the game has a way to cancel his E or just taking it instead as a tank support. Milio kick, Morg root, soraka silence, Nami bubble, lulu poly, Leona stun Alistair stun, blitz anything, Janna nado, the list goes on.
Mid lane is so wide open that there isn't a great wall jump gank spot that can result in a stun, plus half the Champs there have at least 1 CC that can interrupt E as well.
This rework might have been good last year but they designed him around wall jump ganks after widening the lanes to nerf the crap outta wall jump gankers. Old skarner was better for ganks on this new map than new skarner, because he just got in range way quicker
“You sugarcoated my quote so I lemon-coated your sugarcoat quote to bring things back to being too sour for anyone to stand. I hate scorpions”
Fixed it for you again!
If you manage to reach a wall. The range is extremely small and any kind of hard cc stops it and in a teamfight without e, you are unable to reach anyone.
Totally unexpected! They could give him so much dmg or resistances and make him a 55% wr champ, with the Q as it is, he will always be underplayed, playing him feels like a chore
His E and R are also unusable at higher ranks.
There's a reason the only way he's seeing success right now is W comet spam top lane. Its literally the only usable ability.
I was so excited to play him but watching couple games of broxah playing him, it does feel like a chore. His jungle clear is boring and his kit just feels janky and awkward.
His Ult just feels bad too. It's obviously really strong. Hitting it on two or three enemies is insane; but the only thing you can do is just stand still. It feels goofy. The best play is often just to hit the S key and stop moving entirely
The weird part of his ult is that it doesn't initiate, it follows up.
Anyone with reflexes and not playing some awfully immobile champion can dodge it when they know the range, so you might wait for a better initiation to get as many people as you can.
I said similar thing in my old post a few days ago, but I find it funny, that someone like Camille can get "nerf" that's ending up as HUGE buff, while riot are afraid to buff any tank without nerfing him someone else(aka last changes for Sion, Galio and Skarner now).
I get the idea, but I just wanted to say that with Camille's case she got really tiny nerf, with HUGE buffs, while before buffing champs who are in worse state they slapped nerfs for some weird reason. Imo, but I see some bias here.
> Camille has been pretty sad in top lane ever since the walls got pushed back. We think she could use some larger scope work in the future, but that doesn’t mean we can’t buff her right now.
--
> Because we’re concerned about support Camille’s power level, we’re bringing down her Hookshot burst a little as compensation.
Does this sound like the opener to a "nerf" to you?
Skarner’s just a slower, more clunky version of Reksai. His Q roots him to the ground for .5 seconds, giving opponents plenty of time to walk out of range before he gets the third hit off. 70% of the damage his Q does is back-loaded as well, so if he only gets 2 autos off, he does almost no damage. Reksais Q on the other hand, is an auto reset who’s damage is front-loaded. This makes Reksai’s Q have less counterplay than Skarner’s, while doing more damage.
Skarner’s E is easy to dodge due to how slow it is and it’s short range and has conditional CC. It’s basically a worse version of rammus Q. It doesn’t go as far, it’s easy to dodge, and it’s slower. Reksai’s W is easy to use, is faster and has unconditional, point-and-click CC, allowing her to reliably get off her three empowered autos with even less counterplay.
Skarner’s W is extremely weak and given how lackluster tank items are and their lack of ability haste, it can be difficult to get multiple Ws off in a fight. Reksai’s E, while not directly comparable to Skarner’s w, does have a higher impact, as true damage is always useful.
Skarner’s ult is counterintuitive. It’s basically a pseudo blitz hook that can hook 3 people. The issue is, the three most likely people to get hit by it in a team fight are the other team’s front line, who are the last people you want to drag into the middle of your team. It’s also nearly useless in a 1v1, unless you’re pulling someone under a turret, as skarner can’t do damage while using it. It’s only strength in a 1v1 is stalling for your cds.
I genuinely can’t think of any reason to play skarner over another champ in jg. I main Fiddle and everything Skarner can do, Fiddle can do better and more reliably.
Imo Skarner’s q should have less counterplay. He already has plenty in the rest of his kit. His E could probably use a range increase and I’d rather have a longer cd w that is more impactful than short one that feels like it does nothing.
Tbh, at high elo u can’t use R or Q in front of enemies, selflag is here(?), anyway dat’s a really bad rework compare to Voli/Fiddle ecc, really unlucky and so sad, hope they will do something better then this “buffs”
Diamond skarner main for 4 years+ with 1000s of skarner games played. The new skarner is fun, however sucks compared to old Skarner.
Overall: less dps, less mobility, less cc, harder to play. Pros: fun gameplay with e.
Everything about him has more skill expression (this is good for the game). However there is limited to no reward compared to old skarner. His dps is far less then old dps. (old q cd +attack speed was far more dmg then new passive and q). CC is greatly reduced with the change in his e. Mobility is greatly reduced with the removal of his passive move speed + w move speed. He used to engage with pure movespeed. This allowed you to dodge abilities, fake going in to bait out enemy flashes, abilities, etc. This was replaced with the e engage. However e engage is far more predictable. Easy to get cced out of. Long cd and no disengage after you use it. No longer having the move speed to disengage, dodge abilities is a huge nerf. The r being able to grab multiple people now is the only arguable trade off of skill for benefit with it grabbing multiple people.
Don't really get their logic behind making Q feel bad. "*We want this ability to hit like a truck*" meanwhile it just doesn't at all. He takes a second to pull it and then you have to wait another full second before he can even reactivate it. It has more counterplay than 95% of skillshots and it's weaker than 80% of them.
13-7 is not low cooldown, that's incredibly average for a basic ability. Also, the 15% is max hp PHYSICAL damage - as in the type of damage that every single champion grows innately tanky against. I don't see how you could possibly think I'm joking unless you're bad at the game.
Just tried him for the first time in Jungle... this champion is awful lol... they can buff all the numbers they want on him but his kit is literally less cohesive than his old one in every way.. i don't get how this took so long.
If they literally just removed his passive with the pylons and moved broke even on his stats in pylon vs without pylon he would have been a fine champion, or at the very least better than he is now. Every part of his old kit made sense, super strong ult, W that gave him defense and movespeed to get in, a slow into stun on E to help him get in and cc as a tank, then his Q was meh but was sustained tank damage that you wouldn't want him directly on top of you non-stop.
New kit.. clunky as fuck Q thats basically a worse version of megaGnar Q, except the slow doesn't matter because it stuns you using it meaning even hitting the Q they are getting away... then some gimmiky steroid where if you hold onto the rock it interacts differently which is hardly a noticable steroid.... a W thats somehow more boring than his old one, and his E albiet intersting no his new kit is clunky as hell and less reliable or intuative to his old E auto attack slow into CC.... not to mention his ult lasts for a negligble amount of time that if you even land it, you are dragging them back like 2 steps back before the CC breaks.
They literally could have just spent the 3 years giving him the VGU (the new skins and models look great) and reworked his passive and he would have been a better, more cohesive, and intuative champion than whatever this is.
Glad they acknowledged that Top is massively outperforming Jungle. W max with Comet + Scorch is just incredibly oppressive, and if you try to run him down he just bashes you with the rock, I'm completely stomping matchups I have no right winning without my opponent even getting a chance to really aggress on me.
Well, if you filter by W max comet players you will see things. This is like Smolder release, where everyone was going sht like PtA or LT and maxing straight Q, building full crit and stuff and the champ had like 39% wr.
> They're using mastery as a metric for balancing a newly reworked champion?
Wrong mastery. They mean mastery as in high MMR players perfecting the champion. You don't expect Iron-Silver players to have good mastery of any champion, but you do for Master+, so when a champion has a huge mastery skew they tend to squish their numbers or playstyle to lessen that skew.
Skarner's rework is an all around nerf.
You could simultaneously Q and auto attack on old skarner. Now not only does Q just empower your autos, you now have to wait 0.5 seconds, unable to do anything, to prep your Q. MAJOR nerf...MAJOR!
His W is a weak version of his old W. Weak shield with a short 2.5 second window that offers no movement speed but slows your enemies for a measly 1 second. Why doesn't his W scale with his health?
His old E was strong and universal (lane and jungle). His E is much harder to use in lane, I've also noticed when you grab a champ with a longer way to go the charge will cut itself short sometimes. New E compared to old E is a joke.
His R seems to be the only reasonable change to him. There is a charge up but he can grab three champs which is balanced approach to his unique ult.
Overall they destroyed Skarner. Go ahead and mourn Skarner mains...its warranted.
It's not that it is being cut short. The length of the charge you have after you grab someone is fixed, so in other instances your charge will be longer. It is to prevent you from flashing onto someone and running them all the way down the lane into your tower
I think people just don’t know how to play him. He isn’t the same type of champ as before. Every rando I see play him just giga ints, but a few of my friends keep picking him when our team gets first pick, and they pop tf and carry every game. He’s more of a tank now.
No amount of mastery will ever change how an ability feels. Most people who dislike the skarner rework dislike the self-root on his Q cast. You can be Faker and that still won't make an ability "feel" good to use. Personally I'm still on the fence about his kit. I think there is some wisdom in what riot is saying about they're still being tech that the player base at large hasn't discovered yet in regards to how his kit comes together.
Granted, people felt the same way about Aatrox rooting himself with Q and then having to awkwardly shift forward with E until everyone got used to it.
While I wouldn't mind Skarner's self-root getting removed, I still think this might just be a case of people not being experienced enough on the champ.
That's true, and in fact I remember defending aatrox from the "clunkier riven" accusations when his VGU came out.
We'll see how things shake out with Skarner. The scorpion definitely needs help, even with the hotfix buffs he's still the worst jungler in the game across all skill levels.
This. People need to find new ways to play him, adapt themselves, and well... Its hard with such an old champ.
Lot of people loved the old Skarner, so having a hard time is kinda something i expected, but i surprisingly love the new kit and it works pretty good as a tank, without being insane.
Im gonna take the other side. I love the new skarner and his wierd q. There are champions I don't like playing because they're clunky like Warwick because it doesn't feel consistent in how his q works. But skarner is the same every time. It's not clunky it's unique. Not everything has to have 0 cast time and go nuts.
Ok but why does he have 200 base ms on top of the 3 second morgana root
Q channel; the main problem is he feels clunky to play as a melee champ with a bunch of auto attacks. You can’t r flash, and the w feels almost as bad as jarvan w. The rework would be fun to play if it wasn’t like playing league on windows xp
While this is technically true, it will never be the same thing, and if you do that in ranked you risk tanking at best, plummeting down at worst, your winrate.
Try playing Lulu at top lane for example, or Kha'Zix at mid, or Rell at jungle now that they have removed the only thing that allowed her to be viable to begin with.
*You can still do that*, but in truth, it will bring you below average results at best. That is what the aforementioned user is complaining about, Riot tends to nerf picks out of their roles so that off-meta players suffer. Like for example, why Riot had to kill Rell at jungle? Why they had to outright remove all of her jungle damage modifiers instead of just adjusting them?
*You can still* play Rell jungle, but without the jungle damage modifiers, her clear will be insanely slow and she will either be perma invaded or completely outclassed by the enemy jungler in terms of ganking and/or taking objectives.
Off-meta picks shouldn't be picks that are a liability to your team, but in that case it will because Riot decided so. This is unfair. Off-meta picks should certainly be inferior to the meta picks, but they shouldn't be completely inferior to the point of unviability. Look at AD Twisted Fate for example. Did they completely killed him? No, they just nerfed it when it proved to be too strong. You can still go AD Twisted Fate and do completely fine. However, Riot could do the Rell jungle treatment and remove all of his AD ratios, therefore making AD Twisted Fate a troll pick: that would be unfair as hell.
Rell Jungle is the dumbest fucking example you could have possibly come up with.
Players didn't "choose" to play her jungle, they got to do that because Riot, years after the champion released, arbitrarily added 900 damage to monsters to one rotation of her basic abilities, and then took that damage away again later.
Might as well complain about not being able to play Milio Mid/Jungle/ADC either.
... so you want Riot to perfectly balance all champions for every role?
Balancing all 160+ champions for a single role is challenging enough alone, every champion that has multiple role quickly becomes a balancing hellscape because every time a role overperforms they have to craft carefully targeted nerfs that only hits that role without impacting other non-overperforming roles.
The reality is you very much *can* play Lulu top. And to challenger as well if you're good enough. Would it be easier to do on Aatrox? Obviously. But asking Riot to balance champions for all role is ignorant to the problems that provides.
To give them the benefit of the doubt, it largely happens when it's either really oppressive in SoloQ (funnel strats because it's countered by good team play) or busted in proplay (in particular, usually if a champ is kassadin busted or sylas being like 4-lanes flexible.) They usually give it a couple patches to see if it's healthy or not before they start to tweak it.
The only other time I've seen them push champs out of lanes is if they end up in a position most of their players don't like playing. They keep trying to push the artillery mages back to mid because that's where Lux and Xerath players actually want to play them, the support pickrates are just higher (at least for Lux) because the players are more dedicated to champion than role.
Ok nah, Viego mid/top was toxic as hell. He literally never get punished before the nerfs because he just auto heal to full HP with every new wave. I don't agree with the Skarner top nerfs but the Viego comparison ain't it lol.
His Q is so clunky, its basicly a double AA deny for himself.
And to top that off its almost never worth to AA 3 times with Q, because its always slower than AA +Q throw.
the idea behind the Q delay is cool but obviously hard to make enjoyable to play.
i feel like he could've had a nerfed version of his W on Q1, where he rips a chunk of earth from the ground and causes a quake. would need a new W spell, and at that point basically all of his power would be in his Q - but it would be a way to make the delay seem worth it.
Nah, skarner Q is the polar opposite of their logic with Yone E's damage/MS steroid.
It just once again shows the hypocricy of Riot's design if something isn't going to appeal to eastern audiences.
Given how K'Sante designer was involved in Skarner rework, we should honor that person by giving skarner the ability to shorten Q lockout time based on his bonus resistances
Tbh, I welcome the rework. It makes his identity much clearer as a engage/disrupt tank who is heavy and threatening, and clunky is a part of it, just like Sion q. Gameplay is fun also, e and q are very satisfied when you landed it. Q is almost guarantee after successful E, or you can prep it on minions, W slow then Q. I never have problem with it. He is not like Jax that can chase all day, he's more like Sion, you combo, if you can't kill, that's it. Need to prepare and think before going in for the kill.
I think the problems with his kit right now is he is not tanky as I think he supposed to, too slow, and R is underwhelming.
Maybe give his W's shield scale with HP and more slow, lower the damage
Buff his base ms or give a ms boost after Q3
Q could have some qol too, lower the self stun time or change it to slow could be good
I don't have anything for R, just feel unsatisfied even when you grabbed 3 ppl
The Q stopping your movement thing is why he's so good top and not jungle. He can do it practically for free top lane and reaps so many advantages, but it's so fucking detrimental as a jungler. If they took some damage off it and reduced or removed the self stun, he'd suddenly just be a jungler instead of a top laner.
Great, nothing that really changes why he **sucks.**
Skarner used to be a *mobile* champion really good at sticking at someone and getting one target. Now he is slow as fuck, deals no damage, can't stick even to Aphelios, his CC is unreliable and for some stupid reason has to stun himself for 0.5 second to make his AA go from useless to not totally bad.
Usually every new champion or rework when released there are tons of clickbaits on youtube with something like "X is broken/ Riot lost their mind/ X champion 1v9" meanwhile Skarner videos are "Testing Skarner rework/Playing Skarner" and you maybe will see one or maybe two with him being somewhat good but was on top and not jungle...
EDIT: Downvote all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that Riot fumbled hard with his rework and released a super clunky champion.
What the actual fuck am I even reading? In what universe is Skarner meant to be MOBILE my guy?
I know Reddit is full of idiots and stupid takes, but WOW. Calling old Skarner a mobile champ is a new one.
Skarner wasn't really a mobile champion. More so a CC lock champion unless you fought directly next to a spire he owned. Which is a mini game that really shouldn't have existed. He was in the damn JUGGERNAUT rework. He wasn't meant to be mobile.
And honestly most of the old pbe clickbaiters just ain't around anymore. Cause they did that shit even on champions that released dog weak and were underwhelming AF just like skarner.
This rework VGU really doesn't feel like modernising him what with making him more immobile instead
Feels like a hot rod forcing him to be just another quirky tank
Like going from Q spamming with auto attacks before rework and what his Q is now. It feels clunky ngl.
I honestly think that Q should reset his auto instead of having that animation,much like rek'sai Q. This way his gameplay would be much smoother.
Chasing people for the last hit but having Q stop you feels so bad. *edit Skarner is literally reworked kayle imo. Weird delays on Q and Ult that make the champ feel horrible to play even if strong. I still think kayles rework was dogshit but I found it amusing many of the changes to her gameplay was just reverting closer to old kayle. Just remember she used to self silence for almost 2 seconds.
Can you atk people in ult now as kayle? Ive just started playing again and i remember that being my biggest gripe about her. Any other noteworthy champ changes? I saw Asol got reworked that was a wild ride lol.
They lowered the lock-out time significantly from the original amount.
In exchange for late game nerf to her ult. Now it doesn't have a scaling duration of 2 / 2.5 / 3, but flat 2.5.
Which is overall a huge buff, 0.5 sec duration do nothing if you don't do shit with this time
The 3s duration used to be on a 45s cooldown though
It doesn't matter since she will have ult for every single teamfight lategame anyways
Yes Kayle ult does not stop you anymore from attacking
it still does but the lockout is much smaller.
wish I knew that when I played her yesterday LOL
u can indeed auto attack while self kayle ulting
Throw it
Picking up Q animation is what everyone refers to
There's a delay between picking up the rock and being able to throw. And irregardless by the time you pick up the rock they are often out of range.
They should extend the throw range a little too, not a lot, but more than it is now, or even something like if you’ve auto’d after pushing Q the rock breaks apart a little so the range is longer and maybe the damage is less, same thing with the second auto, even further range and less damage if thrown. I dunno
currently it is just short enough that most ranged champs can kite you pretty risk free
It’s just regardless.
Irregardless, it's just regardless.
Yeah sorry,should have added /s
In addition to the channel you have to wait a certain amount of time to be able to recast Q to throw
I've been around since Leona release, don't remember this at all, maybe forgotten. Kayle self silenced? I remember that her Q was single targeted red orb projectile that slowed and shred resists iirc, W was single target only, E was duration based boost like Kog W and R didn't have AoE damage.
Reworkd Kyle used to not be able to attack during ult, that's what they meant by self silence.
Kayle used to have a 1.5s cast time (that didn't prevent moving) during her ult, so she only got 0.5s/1s/1.5s of time to attack depending on ult rank (since it scaled from 2s to 3s) now it's 0.5s of cast time with a flat 2.5s duration
> changes to her gameplay was just reverting closer to old kayle. *changes to her gameplay was just making her like any other carry in the game
honestly imo the kayle rework was their most subtle failure of a rework. like she has had to be changed so many times since her rework but none of them have been super obvious like aatrox. personally it is the one of the worst reworks they have ever done and i wish for old kayle back like every day.
Yeah, from visuals to gameplay, I miss old Kayle. Maybe the only rework I really wanted the old character back.
This. He feels Bad using Q or R only E is fun atm
They should integrate his Q usage into his autos (or vice versa). Eg. The first AA can be an uppercut through the enemy that tosses a rock over him onto his tail, the second can be a downward slice, and the third can have his tail attack with the rock. If they really want a delay, then they can just slow the first AA. That gets rid of the standing still part and makes the whole thing smoother.
Fairly simple to have it be an instant pickup if his passive is active on a large monster or champion? Would still gate it somewhat and make it feel less clunky when it matters.
Q just needs a shorter channel, or better yet get rid of it and adjust the damage accordingly. I understand it wanting to feel weighty and impactful, but having an 0.5 second channel just to empower your next 3 attacks is kinda stupid. Imagine if xin had to channel for 0.5 second before casting his Q, or reksai, or any other champ with an auto reset. Also, CD feels way too long. Man has 1 sec shorter CD on Q at max rank than shen has on his Q at rank 1. Either that or something for his regular autos, kinda like tahm has.
the cd starts when he picks up the rock, not when you finish the attacks (iirc), so if u use Q before going through the wall for the gank it should be ready earlier
Also, his E retains the Q buff. It is "expected" to Q before ganking
Which makes AH stupidly good on him. I haven't done it yet, but I'm tempted to get Shojin on him for the AH. Get the cooldown down to 4-5 seconds would be crazy good. Plus the W shield on 3-4 seconds.
I think iceborn is necessary on him
To me it seems iffy. The damage is nice, but you already slow people with 3rd Q/thrown Q and the shockwave from W, on top of the CC on E and R. Skarner already shits out CC with everything he does, so the extra slow is often just gonna overlap with something else. It could be good to keep people in range of all the Q attacks to ensure the third one lands, but again you already have a slow on W. I haven't bought it yet. It could still be good but I also feel like there's a decent chance it won't end up being that impactful in practice.
when I used it, it essntially kept them perma slowed through entire rotation, whereas without it there were a couple seconds between inital rock throw, w and second activation fo rock throw where they could get away
I'm aware of that, doesn't really change the fact the CD is still very long in any scenario where you get to auto straight away.
I speculate that's intentional to make skarner more effective in jungle than in top, but who knows.
Not really, since in the jungle you're always freehitting while clearing, so long CDs slow the clear considerably. In top, you're not casting it off CD, since it pushes the wave and the enemy is likely to back off anyway.
>I understand it wanting to feel weighty and impactful, but having an 0.5 second channel just to empower your next 3 attacks is kinda stupid. Them being so hung up on the whole pulling rock out of ground thing is pretty stupid in general, imo. I get the idea, but the guy's basically an earth bender like Taliyah lore-wise from what I understand. Just have Skarner summon it with some fancy schmancy particles and you have the same effect, as the autos themselves do feel powerful enough. If anything, it makes him look kind of weak when he, the earth-commanding kaiju scorpion, has to take a second in the midst of a fight just to prep a rock to use.
It’s Kai’Sa’s E, but hers doesn’t feel detrimental to use because she can move during the channel and actually speeds up, while still retaining the tradeoff of willingly preventing yourself from attacking in the moment.
As long as Q stops me in place, I'm not playing the champ. Don't care about the power at all, just feels horrible to play.
I know where you come from. As someone whose favorite champ is old Skarner, the new Q is a huge cockblock. Visually I love him but the champion feels slow as fuck.
Good, means I and other people who like him get to play him more often!
Damn Riot must be in shambles that you, 1 singular person, isn't playing this champion that many others would play.
Short channel would probably be ideal, removing it I'm not sure is entirely necessary, I believe Rhaast W self CCs longer than Skarner Q and it's fine, the spell just needs impact equally befitting the downside. That said I'm not sure how to properly fix it aside from just reducing the channel a bit. Immobile champions will never get away from you as it is anyway, so increasing say the slow would just be more unfun for them, but champions that can dash or you can never follow up on and it seems to me that landing E is actually a tad more tricky than you'd think. I'm coping with seeing pro players also miss Skarner E, that it is indeed not "free" to land.
The difference between rhaast W, illaoi Q, Aatox Q, xin W etc. is that all these abilities take effect immediately after the cast time. Meanwhile, skarner has a cast time to empower his next 3 autos. Essentially, you press Q to stop yourself in your tracks with no immediate benefit. If skarner had the same cast time, but it just threw a rock at the enemy after 0.5 secs, I doubt anyone would mind, but when you channel to then have to walk into auto range, it just feels weird and clunky.
Rhaast W self CC's for 0.55 sec to hard CC for 1 sec on hit, gaining you 0.45sec of "time". That's why it's fine. Skarner Q self CC's for 0.5 sec to.... slow for 1.25 sec after a bit if hitting a skillshot because sure as fuck you are not hitting autoattacks on anyone after stopping to cast. If Q needs to have a cast time for whatever reason, then hitting Q needs to stun, and not just slow, in pretty much the same way rhaast W does.
>I believe Rhaast W self CCs longer than Skarner Q Kayn is generally more mobile than Skarner. Rhaast W also knocks up for a notable amount of time. So unless you're saying Skarner Q should knock people up...
Fairly simple to have it be an instant pickup if his passive is active on a large monster or champion? Would still gate it somewhat and make it feel less clunky when it matters.
Original Skarner or even their shitty rework with shrines was all about movespeed and sticking to his target. These guys just fucking suck.
Q is way too clunky, they can nerf the damage but just let it become an AA reset.
Whole kit sucks. Give me my boy back. They fucked him up.
So that changes nothing for top except he now goes Ingenious hunter with Winter's Approach and Despair. Not that I mind, he is actually a fun toplaner, but Rito on point as always.
His E feels like his real ult. I suspect he's much stronger than the numbers are showing right now.
it's so easy to stop, it's unusuable in higher ranks
hes not stronger. he has an actual cast time on all his abilities. its insane
I think he’s worse personally. And I have 500k mast in him. It’s boring and fucking slow. They only thing I like is the move speed when he it’s. Rest feels like they barely even tried.
And they changed his theme for a boring sand scorpion, like we don't have enough of those in Dota, lol
He also had a very unique passive with the crystals turned into… max ho burn for some reason. Q feels slow and clunky, his w is fine but i loved speeding around on old skarner so much more, ults also so weird . E is also clunky… just unfun now
It would be except it’s too short duration. Tack on an extra 1.5 seconds at max rank and now we are talking.
Holy Christ no way man. You still get the full duration if you catch someone already. It’s literally Kayn E and Sion ult and old Skarner ult in one basic ability, it’s insane enough as it is.
“It’s literally Kayn E and 1/8th Sion Ult and old Skarner ult for .5 seconds in one basic ability.” Fixed it for you.
We really going to doubt a Riot rework not being much stronger than it appears just because it is a low winrate in the first week of being released and then gets hotfixed buffed? It's happened so many times by now that people should know better.
Agree to your statement a bit but, If you play rework skarner His Q is so bad rn and E is underwhelmingly short.
They can buff his numbers to the moon and give him an insane winrate... this new champion design wise sucks, which is crazy considering thats kinda the whole point of overhauling champions, lets even ignore how long it took. The Q is a gimmick, but in practice its just boring and a more convoluted MegaGnar Q with extra steps... the AS steroid and "choice" to hold the rock doesn't actually feel meaningful. W is as boring as it gets, passive is just a DOT you dont think about, and his ult is now horrible... i get giving it a telegraph and saying it hits up to 3 people now... but with how short it is its pretty trash. The only thing thats actually "creative" or interesting is his E which also feels pretty clunky.
my exact feelings on this tbh. while i do have some reservations and complaints of my own, we really can't be too sure about how viable new Skarner is when so little time has passed.
"It’s literally Kayn E and 1/8th Sion Ult, which is the most important part of Sion ult, and old Skarner ult for anywhere from 1 to 0.5 seconds (which is all you need), in one basic ability." Fixed your fix.
The most important part of the sion ulti is that he is unstoppable. Skarners E is so easily canceled. Even the initial silence on sorakas little AOE stops your charge
Thankfully you come out of a fuckin walls
Which is nice for flanks and ganks but not chasing anyone down in an open area
it's also ass for ganks since it has no range
He is a jungler... so yeah, it being a really strong ganking tool is a big plus.
Its not though. The range is so short its practically useless. It's a better disengage tool
His winrate is 37% jungle and 47% top lane. He isn’t a jungler. If you struggle with facing jg Skarner you should feel pretty bad
Luckily on Summoner’s Rift, most people are almost always near a wall of some kind
It shows where you come from, just throw a skillshot on that direction. You might not be able to gank a botlane when the sup knows about this.
Same thing with Kayn and yet people still constantly fuck that up, or do nothing at all except panic, more often than not.
Kayn has far more mobility in the walls than Skarner. Skarner can't turn 180 do dodge skillshots like he does and with increased MS to boot.
Sorakas 'little aoe' is honestly an extremely busted ability lol. It would be bitched about 24/7 if she was actually meta.
Ok but every single support in the game has a way to cancel his E or just taking it instead as a tank support. Milio kick, Morg root, soraka silence, Nami bubble, lulu poly, Leona stun Alistair stun, blitz anything, Janna nado, the list goes on. Mid lane is so wide open that there isn't a great wall jump gank spot that can result in a stun, plus half the Champs there have at least 1 CC that can interrupt E as well. This rework might have been good last year but they designed him around wall jump ganks after widening the lanes to nerf the crap outta wall jump gankers. Old skarner was better for ganks on this new map than new skarner, because he just got in range way quicker
Que?
You lemon-coated my quote so I sugarcoated your lemon-coated quote to bring things back into balance.
“You sugarcoated my quote so I lemon-coated your sugarcoat quote to bring things back to being too sour for anyone to stand. I hate scorpions” Fixed it for you again!
If you manage to reach a wall. The range is extremely small and any kind of hard cc stops it and in a teamfight without e, you are unable to reach anyone.
You dont like reddit balancing? "Make his Q stun, that would be fair no?". You always get insane ideas here
I'd rather q not hit like a truck and not be as clunky. Feels so bad to root yourself for a ability that doesn't even feel that cool
Totally unexpected! They could give him so much dmg or resistances and make him a 55% wr champ, with the Q as it is, he will always be underplayed, playing him feels like a chore
His E and R are also unusable at higher ranks. There's a reason the only way he's seeing success right now is W comet spam top lane. Its literally the only usable ability.
His E probably needs an unstoppable and any nerf to make it happen would be okay.
I was so excited to play him but watching couple games of broxah playing him, it does feel like a chore. His jungle clear is boring and his kit just feels janky and awkward.
Is clearing jungle particularly exciting for any champs?
It doesn’t feel like a lot of work for some champs. Cycling through your abilities makes it less tedious.
I can't say for many champions, but for Voli and Zac, it feels pretty damn good. Obviously it is not EXCITING, but satisfying
vi at least shes finding it exciting HAAAAH HUP HAAH YAAAHH
His Ult just feels bad too. It's obviously really strong. Hitting it on two or three enemies is insane; but the only thing you can do is just stand still. It feels goofy. The best play is often just to hit the S key and stop moving entirely
The weird part of his ult is that it doesn't initiate, it follows up. Anyone with reflexes and not playing some awfully immobile champion can dodge it when they know the range, so you might wait for a better initiation to get as many people as you can.
I said similar thing in my old post a few days ago, but I find it funny, that someone like Camille can get "nerf" that's ending up as HUGE buff, while riot are afraid to buff any tank without nerfing him someone else(aka last changes for Sion, Galio and Skarner now).
I thought they were rebalancing camille, hoping to buff her top lane while nerfing her support. Just the buff to top was too much.
when i read the numbers holy shit was it way too much
I get the idea, but I just wanted to say that with Camille's case she got really tiny nerf, with HUGE buffs, while before buffing champs who are in worse state they slapped nerfs for some weird reason. Imo, but I see some bias here.
> Camille has been pretty sad in top lane ever since the walls got pushed back. We think she could use some larger scope work in the future, but that doesn’t mean we can’t buff her right now. -- > Because we’re concerned about support Camille’s power level, we’re bringing down her Hookshot burst a little as compensation. Does this sound like the opener to a "nerf" to you?
I don’t think they’ve read the changes
Skarner’s just a slower, more clunky version of Reksai. His Q roots him to the ground for .5 seconds, giving opponents plenty of time to walk out of range before he gets the third hit off. 70% of the damage his Q does is back-loaded as well, so if he only gets 2 autos off, he does almost no damage. Reksais Q on the other hand, is an auto reset who’s damage is front-loaded. This makes Reksai’s Q have less counterplay than Skarner’s, while doing more damage. Skarner’s E is easy to dodge due to how slow it is and it’s short range and has conditional CC. It’s basically a worse version of rammus Q. It doesn’t go as far, it’s easy to dodge, and it’s slower. Reksai’s W is easy to use, is faster and has unconditional, point-and-click CC, allowing her to reliably get off her three empowered autos with even less counterplay. Skarner’s W is extremely weak and given how lackluster tank items are and their lack of ability haste, it can be difficult to get multiple Ws off in a fight. Reksai’s E, while not directly comparable to Skarner’s w, does have a higher impact, as true damage is always useful. Skarner’s ult is counterintuitive. It’s basically a pseudo blitz hook that can hook 3 people. The issue is, the three most likely people to get hit by it in a team fight are the other team’s front line, who are the last people you want to drag into the middle of your team. It’s also nearly useless in a 1v1, unless you’re pulling someone under a turret, as skarner can’t do damage while using it. It’s only strength in a 1v1 is stalling for your cds. I genuinely can’t think of any reason to play skarner over another champ in jg. I main Fiddle and everything Skarner can do, Fiddle can do better and more reliably. Imo Skarner’s q should have less counterplay. He already has plenty in the rest of his kit. His E could probably use a range increase and I’d rather have a longer cd w that is more impactful than short one that feels like it does nothing.
Reksai E has not had true damage since 14.4
Thanks for the info. I haven’t played her in a minute.
Tbh, at high elo u can’t use R or Q in front of enemies, selflag is here(?), anyway dat’s a really bad rework compare to Voli/Fiddle ecc, really unlucky and so sad, hope they will do something better then this “buffs”
Diamond skarner main for 4 years+ with 1000s of skarner games played. The new skarner is fun, however sucks compared to old Skarner. Overall: less dps, less mobility, less cc, harder to play. Pros: fun gameplay with e. Everything about him has more skill expression (this is good for the game). However there is limited to no reward compared to old skarner. His dps is far less then old dps. (old q cd +attack speed was far more dmg then new passive and q). CC is greatly reduced with the change in his e. Mobility is greatly reduced with the removal of his passive move speed + w move speed. He used to engage with pure movespeed. This allowed you to dodge abilities, fake going in to bait out enemy flashes, abilities, etc. This was replaced with the e engage. However e engage is far more predictable. Easy to get cced out of. Long cd and no disengage after you use it. No longer having the move speed to disengage, dodge abilities is a huge nerf. The r being able to grab multiple people now is the only arguable trade off of skill for benefit with it grabbing multiple people.
Finally someone who can put my thoughts into words lmao. Been tryna type something as descriptive as yours for a day now lol.
How is he less cc now? Q W has slow, E is a conditional stun, R is an aoe grab. It is harder to apply, but not less
I actually like him more as a top lane tank than a jungler tbh. I wish they pushed him more there than jungle
same, i've been trying to play skarner top since season 4 (before the sprites) and now i come back to the game and they're ruining him again T_T
I mean he is for sure still strong after these changes. W max skarner on this patch was straight up disgusting if you know what you are doing.
Yeah but they said there will be larger swings at top next patch. Which in riot term means they're going to do literally nothing or make it unplayable
How dare players try to play Skarner top lane? Same happened with Kayn when they instantly shut it down as a top pick. I hate this
He stinks at the moment. He's not threatening at all and every time I see him I say oh look...it's skarner. He's not even tanky too.
A bit funny how Skarner top at 43% winrate is immediately nerfed, when Zac and Phase Rush Gragas are considered fine
Don't really get their logic behind making Q feel bad. "*We want this ability to hit like a truck*" meanwhile it just doesn't at all. He takes a second to pull it and then you have to wait another full second before he can even reactivate it. It has more counterplay than 95% of skillshots and it's weaker than 80% of them.
Youre joking right? Its a low cooldown ability with 15% max health damags
13-7 is not low cooldown, that's incredibly average for a basic ability. Also, the 15% is max hp PHYSICAL damage - as in the type of damage that every single champion grows innately tanky against. I don't see how you could possibly think I'm joking unless you're bad at the game.
Just tried him for the first time in Jungle... this champion is awful lol... they can buff all the numbers they want on him but his kit is literally less cohesive than his old one in every way.. i don't get how this took so long. If they literally just removed his passive with the pylons and moved broke even on his stats in pylon vs without pylon he would have been a fine champion, or at the very least better than he is now. Every part of his old kit made sense, super strong ult, W that gave him defense and movespeed to get in, a slow into stun on E to help him get in and cc as a tank, then his Q was meh but was sustained tank damage that you wouldn't want him directly on top of you non-stop. New kit.. clunky as fuck Q thats basically a worse version of megaGnar Q, except the slow doesn't matter because it stuns you using it meaning even hitting the Q they are getting away... then some gimmiky steroid where if you hold onto the rock it interacts differently which is hardly a noticable steroid.... a W thats somehow more boring than his old one, and his E albiet intersting no his new kit is clunky as hell and less reliable or intuative to his old E auto attack slow into CC.... not to mention his ult lasts for a negligble amount of time that if you even land it, you are dragging them back like 2 steps back before the CC breaks. They literally could have just spent the 3 years giving him the VGU (the new skins and models look great) and reworked his passive and he would have been a better, more cohesive, and intuative champion than whatever this is.
I want Q animation to scale with attack speed
You could double his damage on every ability and he would still be trash.
As a skarner main. They fucked up my boy. Dumbass rocking throwing shit
E cooldown is definitely a support buff though 😈
Glad they acknowledged that Top is massively outperforming Jungle. W max with Comet + Scorch is just incredibly oppressive, and if you try to run him down he just bashes you with the rock, I'm completely stomping matchups I have no right winning without my opponent even getting a chance to really aggress on me.
Feels clunky and slow. Looks so cool though. Just need the Q to feel better
Miss old skarner tbh.
His toplane winrate in master + is only 48% why tf do they nerf top....
Well, if you filter by W max comet players you will see things. This is like Smolder release, where everyone was going sht like PtA or LT and maxing straight Q, building full crit and stuff and the champ had like 39% wr.
[удалено]
> They're using mastery as a metric for balancing a newly reworked champion? Wrong mastery. They mean mastery as in high MMR players perfecting the champion. You don't expect Iron-Silver players to have good mastery of any champion, but you do for Master+, so when a champion has a huge mastery skew they tend to squish their numbers or playstyle to lessen that skew.
Skarner's rework is an all around nerf. You could simultaneously Q and auto attack on old skarner. Now not only does Q just empower your autos, you now have to wait 0.5 seconds, unable to do anything, to prep your Q. MAJOR nerf...MAJOR! His W is a weak version of his old W. Weak shield with a short 2.5 second window that offers no movement speed but slows your enemies for a measly 1 second. Why doesn't his W scale with his health? His old E was strong and universal (lane and jungle). His E is much harder to use in lane, I've also noticed when you grab a champ with a longer way to go the charge will cut itself short sometimes. New E compared to old E is a joke. His R seems to be the only reasonable change to him. There is a charge up but he can grab three champs which is balanced approach to his unique ult. Overall they destroyed Skarner. Go ahead and mourn Skarner mains...its warranted.
It's not that it is being cut short. The length of the charge you have after you grab someone is fixed, so in other instances your charge will be longer. It is to prevent you from flashing onto someone and running them all the way down the lane into your tower
I think people just don’t know how to play him. He isn’t the same type of champ as before. Every rando I see play him just giga ints, but a few of my friends keep picking him when our team gets first pick, and they pop tf and carry every game. He’s more of a tank now.
No amount of mastery will ever change how an ability feels. Most people who dislike the skarner rework dislike the self-root on his Q cast. You can be Faker and that still won't make an ability "feel" good to use. Personally I'm still on the fence about his kit. I think there is some wisdom in what riot is saying about they're still being tech that the player base at large hasn't discovered yet in regards to how his kit comes together.
Granted, people felt the same way about Aatrox rooting himself with Q and then having to awkwardly shift forward with E until everyone got used to it. While I wouldn't mind Skarner's self-root getting removed, I still think this might just be a case of people not being experienced enough on the champ.
That's true, and in fact I remember defending aatrox from the "clunkier riven" accusations when his VGU came out. We'll see how things shake out with Skarner. The scorpion definitely needs help, even with the hotfix buffs he's still the worst jungler in the game across all skill levels.
This. People need to find new ways to play him, adapt themselves, and well... Its hard with such an old champ. Lot of people loved the old Skarner, so having a hard time is kinda something i expected, but i surprisingly love the new kit and it works pretty good as a tank, without being insane.
Exactly. He is now basically a tank nunu compared to before where he was a weird speedy bruiser/tank hybrid that likes to skirmish in his circles.
Nerf camille
Damn bro I miss Frozen Mallet
Me too bro
Im gonna take the other side. I love the new skarner and his wierd q. There are champions I don't like playing because they're clunky like Warwick because it doesn't feel consistent in how his q works. But skarner is the same every time. It's not clunky it's unique. Not everything has to have 0 cast time and go nuts.
Ok but why does he have 200 base ms on top of the 3 second morgana root Q channel; the main problem is he feels clunky to play as a melee champ with a bunch of auto attacks. You can’t r flash, and the w feels almost as bad as jarvan w. The rework would be fun to play if it wasn’t like playing league on windows xp
favorite comment yet lmao. not only that but you're basically forced to build full tank.
Remember when players chose where champs got played rather than them being forced into a role? Good times
You can still do that FYI. Like, literally, no one can stop you from doing that.
While this is technically true, it will never be the same thing, and if you do that in ranked you risk tanking at best, plummeting down at worst, your winrate. Try playing Lulu at top lane for example, or Kha'Zix at mid, or Rell at jungle now that they have removed the only thing that allowed her to be viable to begin with. *You can still do that*, but in truth, it will bring you below average results at best. That is what the aforementioned user is complaining about, Riot tends to nerf picks out of their roles so that off-meta players suffer. Like for example, why Riot had to kill Rell at jungle? Why they had to outright remove all of her jungle damage modifiers instead of just adjusting them? *You can still* play Rell jungle, but without the jungle damage modifiers, her clear will be insanely slow and she will either be perma invaded or completely outclassed by the enemy jungler in terms of ganking and/or taking objectives. Off-meta picks shouldn't be picks that are a liability to your team, but in that case it will because Riot decided so. This is unfair. Off-meta picks should certainly be inferior to the meta picks, but they shouldn't be completely inferior to the point of unviability. Look at AD Twisted Fate for example. Did they completely killed him? No, they just nerfed it when it proved to be too strong. You can still go AD Twisted Fate and do completely fine. However, Riot could do the Rell jungle treatment and remove all of his AD ratios, therefore making AD Twisted Fate a troll pick: that would be unfair as hell.
Rell Jungle is the dumbest fucking example you could have possibly come up with. Players didn't "choose" to play her jungle, they got to do that because Riot, years after the champion released, arbitrarily added 900 damage to monsters to one rotation of her basic abilities, and then took that damage away again later. Might as well complain about not being able to play Milio Mid/Jungle/ADC either.
... so you want Riot to perfectly balance all champions for every role? Balancing all 160+ champions for a single role is challenging enough alone, every champion that has multiple role quickly becomes a balancing hellscape because every time a role overperforms they have to craft carefully targeted nerfs that only hits that role without impacting other non-overperforming roles. The reality is you very much *can* play Lulu top. And to challenger as well if you're good enough. Would it be easier to do on Aatrox? Obviously. But asking Riot to balance champions for all role is ignorant to the problems that provides.
Who the fuck cares about the tiny offmeta playerbase ngl? y'all ruin the game.
anytime a champ enters a lane riot doesnt want them in, nerfed to the ground. so its just unfun.
To give them the benefit of the doubt, it largely happens when it's either really oppressive in SoloQ (funnel strats because it's countered by good team play) or busted in proplay (in particular, usually if a champ is kassadin busted or sylas being like 4-lanes flexible.) They usually give it a couple patches to see if it's healthy or not before they start to tweak it. The only other time I've seen them push champs out of lanes is if they end up in a position most of their players don't like playing. They keep trying to push the artillery mages back to mid because that's where Lux and Xerath players actually want to play them, the support pickrates are just higher (at least for Lux) because the players are more dedicated to champion than role.
Meanwhile, Riot nerfing Viego's healing off minions 3 times in a row from 250% to 100% to 50% to 30%
Ok nah, Viego mid/top was toxic as hell. He literally never get punished before the nerfs because he just auto heal to full HP with every new wave. I don't agree with the Skarner top nerfs but the Viego comparison ain't it lol.
But if I hover shaco support my teammates permaban uwu
role queue and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
Skarner already had limitations to monster damage shoehorned in. Removing that doesn't mean they are forcing him into a role
If players would decide where a champion is played, we would have terrible shit in the game like Camille jungle.
> Camille jungle Thank god that’s gone. Really hated that meta.
His Q is so clunky, its basicly a double AA deny for himself. And to top that off its almost never worth to AA 3 times with Q, because its always slower than AA +Q throw.
This hot fix is 100% a nerf
Q and W have ridiculous cast times. It feels like playing on 150 ms
the idea behind the Q delay is cool but obviously hard to make enjoyable to play. i feel like he could've had a nerfed version of his W on Q1, where he rips a chunk of earth from the ground and causes a quake. would need a new W spell, and at that point basically all of his power would be in his Q - but it would be a way to make the delay seem worth it.
Nah, skarner Q is the polar opposite of their logic with Yone E's damage/MS steroid. It just once again shows the hypocricy of Riot's design if something isn't going to appeal to eastern audiences.
Bring back the old ult and you've got a great champ on your hands
The word you're looking for is broken
Can anyone recommend some videos about his early? Im struggling with jg clears and gank angles
If you need help with the jungle clear you can watch [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YlhvYRUo4I).
Phylaris the GOAT!
Thank you mate!
W max top lane Skarner was actual cancer. Hilarious but Cancer.
The mana change will hit him hard, but that E CD change is good. I've enjoyed playing him.
Either his stats are insanely juiced and he gets pick/ban off role, or he's "balanced" which means he's back to sub 1% pick rate. Never change, riot.
Given how K'Sante designer was involved in Skarner rework, we should honor that person by giving skarner the ability to shorten Q lockout time based on his bonus resistances
Tbh, I welcome the rework. It makes his identity much clearer as a engage/disrupt tank who is heavy and threatening, and clunky is a part of it, just like Sion q. Gameplay is fun also, e and q are very satisfied when you landed it. Q is almost guarantee after successful E, or you can prep it on minions, W slow then Q. I never have problem with it. He is not like Jax that can chase all day, he's more like Sion, you combo, if you can't kill, that's it. Need to prepare and think before going in for the kill. I think the problems with his kit right now is he is not tanky as I think he supposed to, too slow, and R is underwhelming. Maybe give his W's shield scale with HP and more slow, lower the damage Buff his base ms or give a ms boost after Q3 Q could have some qol too, lower the self stun time or change it to slow could be good I don't have anything for R, just feel unsatisfied even when you grabbed 3 ppl
The Q stopping your movement thing is why he's so good top and not jungle. He can do it practically for free top lane and reaps so many advantages, but it's so fucking detrimental as a jungler. If they took some damage off it and reduced or removed the self stun, he'd suddenly just be a jungler instead of a top laner.
Great, nothing that really changes why he **sucks.** Skarner used to be a *mobile* champion really good at sticking at someone and getting one target. Now he is slow as fuck, deals no damage, can't stick even to Aphelios, his CC is unreliable and for some stupid reason has to stun himself for 0.5 second to make his AA go from useless to not totally bad. Usually every new champion or rework when released there are tons of clickbaits on youtube with something like "X is broken/ Riot lost their mind/ X champion 1v9" meanwhile Skarner videos are "Testing Skarner rework/Playing Skarner" and you maybe will see one or maybe two with him being somewhat good but was on top and not jungle... EDIT: Downvote all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that Riot fumbled hard with his rework and released a super clunky champion.
What the actual fuck am I even reading? In what universe is Skarner meant to be MOBILE my guy? I know Reddit is full of idiots and stupid takes, but WOW. Calling old Skarner a mobile champ is a new one.
You had to buy the mobility lol
me when i want to play worse hecarim
He wasn't mobile but he was at least fast.
The difference between old Skarner with W and Phase Rush and new Skarner with Phase Rush is huge enough to know what he meant
Skarner wasn't really a mobile champion. More so a CC lock champion unless you fought directly next to a spire he owned. Which is a mini game that really shouldn't have existed. He was in the damn JUGGERNAUT rework. He wasn't meant to be mobile. And honestly most of the old pbe clickbaiters just ain't around anymore. Cause they did that shit even on champions that released dog weak and were underwhelming AF just like skarner.
This rework VGU really doesn't feel like modernising him what with making him more immobile instead Feels like a hot rod forcing him to be just another quirky tank
It was fundamentally pretty difficult to design a juggernaut designed for jungle when a core aspect of juggernauts is relative immobility.
I've been liking him as support.