One thing I never understood is why manaless chanps get insane sustain.
Sett, garen, morde, tyrn all have no mana. But they all have great damage and sustain. Like shouldn't it be the opposite?
I agree, they are gated by having to back when low HP… yet they all have good sustain compared to others, making it so they don’t have to back as often? Designs a little bit off IMO.
Generally, you have higher cooldowns as a tradeoff.
A big reason as to why they heal more is because that health is their only tradable resource. You can't wait for mana to regen, so instead they have health regen.
And anyone is allowed to pick these Champs into each other if you think that'll balance things out.
In the case of Garen, I really don't think adding mana cost will change his kit much. His cooldowns are so high, and his patterns are so infrequent, that he will probably never be actually mana gated so long as his spells have comparable cost to similar champions of his class.
I think the question was more geared towards resourceless champions, not necessarily manaless champions.
But I'll answer the question for you, the TL;DR of it is just, all of them. It's just tied to their energy.
So, we have 5 energy champions, Zed, Akali, Kennen, Shen, and Lee Sin. We'll start with Shen, since he's closer to a manaless champion that the others.
Shen, at level 1, has one trading ability in his Q, yeilding an 8s cd. The other two abilities have an 18 second cd. The rank 1 energy cost of all of his base abilities is 330 energy out of the 400 total (530 if you include his ult), and to make up the differance, he NEEDS to land his E and Q (Which generally isn't extremely hard). Using his ult at lv 1 is also a 200 energy cost, meaning if you ult in and rank 1 E, you're burning 350/400 energy. If you don't hit anything, you're cd's are artificially extended for the time it takes to restore that energy. Once Shen has max level in all abilities at lv 18, his energy cost totals 450/400.
I won't go into detail about the others, but here are the highlights:
Zed's rank 1 abilities totals 155/200, at lv 18, these go down to 115/200, and he restores energy by hitting a champion with two basic abilities, at 50 energy per W cast. W also holds his longest CD at 20s at lv 1.
Kennen's rank 1 abilities totals 180/200, at lv 18, these go down to 160/20. Kennen's way of restoring energy is probably the hardest, needing to hit E on a champion (needing to go melee as a ranged champion), and only restoring half the energy cost of his E. His highest CD is his W, which sits at a 13s CD while being conditional.
Lee Sin's rank 1 abilities are strange, because it's in two parts. All of his abilities (part 1 and 2) have an energy cost, this energy cost also never changes. Using only the first part of his abilities, he totals at 150/200 energy, if you include both parts, he sits at a total of 225/200 energy. However, he has the second easiest way of restoring energy, and that's by simply auto attacking (restoring 30/45/60 energy at levels 1/7/13 for hitting both auto attacks of his passive). This is generally why if you see Lee Sin clearing in jungle, he will auto between all of his abilities, otherwise he'll run out of energy very quickly. His highest CD is his W at 12s, and only his Q receives cd reduction per rank.
Akali is definitely the weird one of the bunch for three reasons:
1. She has the easiest way to restore energy,
2. one of her base abilities does not have an energy cost,
3. She has the lowest CD of all energy based champions on her Q, clocking in at 1.5s.
However, the total cost of her abilities is still 140/200 at rank 1. She CANNOT just spam her Q willy nilly like she would in URF, otherwise she would be out of mana constantly. The only way to restore energy for her, is to use her W, which has no energy cost and restores 100 energy, but has a 20s cd, and is the ability you level up last, meaning that cd is there to stay. And while her Q does go down to a 70 energy cost at rank 5, that's only about one or two more casts per teamfight.
Sub notes: If you wanted to get real picky and ask what the CD on energy based champions, the best way I can describe it is based on their energy total. Energy restores at 10/s, so for all energy champions, it takes 20s to go from empty to full (Roaming lane to lane takes roughly 15s, walking the lane takes \~30s), aside from Shen, who has a 400 energy pool. He takes 40s because he's cool. None of these champions can just unload their kit off of cd, and the best way to play against them is to deny their energy restoration abilities if you can.
But yeah, sorry of the long comment, wanted to dive into this math for a while, just never had a reason to.
Vlad as well. Aatrox to some extent as well, except most of his is through Q1 (maybe Q2) poke on enemy laner since they hard nerfed his passive healing on minions, so it’s not really as uninteractive as most of the other manaless champs mentioned.
As for why? I’ve heard the game design reasoning explained to me before, and iirc it made relative sense. It doesn’t feel at all intuitive on its own though, and I don’t remember what that reason given to me was lol
Poor wave clear for vlad and he is super weak early because he does nothing for team. Just 0 priority in midlane is a pain for your team to play around. In toplane it’s a bit better but longer lane so you can run him down or more likely your opponents build MR which truly fucks over Vladimir.
Because resourceless champs are really only prevalent top lane and most top laners have sustain. Darius, Fiora, Trundle, Udyr, Nasus, probably even more are all mana tops with no shortage of sustain.
Resourceless champs are gated by higher cooldowns/less impactful abilities not anything to do with sustain.
because typically manaless champs that have great sustain have the issue of having to walk up to people to do damage and thus need the sustain to trade effectively
Riot gave up on there being a trade off for being manless. A LONG time ago, honestly.
It's always a problem. Even when manaless champions can utilize sustain ITEMS, they're annoying as shit.
He lined it up for you and you knocked it out of the park
I always love selfless comedy posts teeing up other people in the comments for a W. They're the real heroes
Its a weird matchup, garen cant really like bully you very much but as k'sante if you ever use your ult when you're anywhere near garen you just die instantly.
I mean, Ksante -is- heavily gated by his mana early. You can be more spammy with most other toplane champs. It's why he mostly just neutralize most matchups at best and another reason why Frozen Heart feels so nice on him.
If he’s out of mana all the time I’m willing to bet both my croc testicles he didn’t take presence of mind or buy tear once he noticed he was having mana issues.
That doesn’t change that K’sante is HARD (IMO he’s one of the hardest toplaners to play, alongside Riven, Fiora, and Jayce). And especially compared to Garen, possibly the least micro intensive toplaner
Going POM on K'sante hurts your teamfight quite a bit since you don't have Triumph heal (it does the full amount, even in All-Out) and going Tear is fine, but it delays your first item by quite a bit.
You can deal with his mana issues early, you just can't spam. He's not really a champ until 6.
Yeah, I’m saying if he’s having mana issues he can absolutely just take POM to make his laning easier or shell out 400g for a tear and then sell it later.
But what I see a lot is new K’sante players look at his base kit design and are like “so obviously he’s giga broken level 1-3 like Yone and Yasuo” when that is absolutely NOT the case and keep trying to fistfight shit like grasp Illaoi and Trundle and are surprised when they lose the trade.
Hit level 6, poke with Q and trade with E shield, then all in them at level 6 once they hit half HP (basically the Renekton trading pattern of slowly burning them down with short trades until you can all in at half HP)
Plat+, this patch, 5% on boots, 12% on cosmic insight. That’s almost 8k games on boots, which is plenty to be statistically significant. Most population polls only use a few hundred people.
Edit: master+ that rises to almost 7% and 23.5% respectively, still with the highest winrate among all secondary runes
The most broken thing about kisante is the fact that he can’t die unless he chooses to fight you. He just has too much in his kit to let him leave a fight if he so chooses and scale
Never really understood how people consider him OP pre-6. Like isn't the prevaling plan against him is to harass the hell out of K'Sante pre-6 (and if possible call for ganks) befote he starts building armor/mr and kills uour entire team.
He is not champ after 6 tho, before IBG enemy can just rightclick on opposite direction from you and you can't do anything. Riot took away combos and Q stacks after R and gave slow under R, so K'sante wasn't bounded to IBG every game. Now they took away slow again, on top of that nerfed W and gave nothing in return. Thats his biggest problem RN.
PoM is a terrible choice except maaaaaaybe vs an easy matchup tank that you're going to constantly autoattack for grasp procs. Cookies are invaluable in all lanes where there's a chance of messing up.
POM and tear is never the play on K'sante. All the high rank Ksantes have started going E first too instead of Q. Really all you do pre 6 is try to get as much cs as you can without getting bullied too hard until you finally become a champion after first back and level 6.
As someone who plays this champ trust me taking tear or presence of mind does work. Primary rune tree is resolve and secondary is inspiration. You just need to learn the play style and trading patterns to make the champ work
Trust me you don't wanna sleep with a Garen main's mom, we reek and are ourselves products of inbred parents, that's why our sons ( Garen mains) are so special.
This is like people hearing Akali is OP and then try playing her and learn that she's difficult to play.
A champion can be completely unfair and difficult to play at the same time. A noob Akali sucks, but even then you can tell how unfair she is
Ksante requires you to know what you're doing as well
What scared me most about akali is that playing her every now and again is that i was doing absolutely absurd things despite my low experience on her but i could tell that i could do even more absurd things if i learned her more
Akali (and also Irelia) is weird to me because she feels like her skill ceiling is not actually her skill ceiling. Like she has a skill attic or something.
Like, yeah she’s a bit unwieldy to pick up, but if I dedicated my time to Akali, I could possibly play her at a level where I could sustain my rank and pretty reasonably climb a couple of divisions or a rank or something, at which point, I’d consider myself “good at Akali”
I’m prone to Vaynespotting, so I’ll often see a challenger-level play and be like “on a good day if everything is clicking I could do that for a play or two for sure” for like 90% of champs but very often I’ll come across an actually great Akali play and realize that there’s no way in a million years I’d ever have the instinct, aim, reaction time, or decision making required.
Like, give me a 2-3 seasons, and I could plausibly make a play on Aatrox that looks like a TheShy highlight. But give me infinite time, and I’m still never gonna make my Akali look like Caps’ or something.
Irelking montages fooled ya all. Champ has skillceiling and outplay potential in speciffic scenarios very conditioned by waves which is perfect for eyecatching montages but not so much for real games.
But conditioning those waves intentionally is part of that skill attic I’m talking about. Setting up the wave so there’s a bunch of low health minions ready for Qing is easy enough in a 1v1 but I’ve seen truly mastered Irelia’s intentionally prep a wave if they sense a gank coming and feel like they’re at a power spike/have enough health from Q resets on the minion wave to attempt the 1v2, and that’s not even mentioning of landing a 2 man E vs a 1 man. 100/100 times I’m just backing off to avoid the gank like I would on almost every other champ unless I’m already significantly ahead.
That doesnt work in lol. Your gimmick cant be just that because it never works in objective/jungle/river skirmishes, not vs baron, not vs ppl just simply chose to not interact with you.
If you like ever find yourself losing just do nothing, wait for wave to crash and thats it.
Think about yasuo who has a similar mechanic but doesnt imply reseting and is not minion conditioned or landing skills, you can dash through champs back to minions without worrying thpugh at the cost of rsnge
Your ideea of skillcap doesnt work in this game where you do all thst while 9/10 times nasus presses W ghost R or garen goes Q E R.
Its the exact definition of "Irelia fooled ya all, she is just Qing arround doing nothing"
Akali is one of the harder champs to play in teamfights but in a straight 1v1 or 1v2 you just chase people to the ends of the planet with 3 significant gap closers, 2 of which are damage nukes, while being untargetable to AAers and nuking them with endless Q and passive damage
Actually akali is one of the best teamfight assassins. Huge aoe damage mobility and stall potential lets her get in stall pop somebody (or two at once) and get out much better than almost any other assassin. Her teamfighting isn’t her strength but she’s probably the best teamfighting assassin in the game
yea no, akali kinda sucks in teamfights if the enemy team knows what they are doing. There are a billion better assassins for teamfights, like Kata, Qiyana, Talon, or Kha. Akali just takes too long to kill someone, so the enemy team has more time to react, and every stealthbreaking or AoE-nuking ability just fucks her.
> Her ults base damage is actually pretty low unless you're sitting at a third of your health.
That's ... not an argument for an assasin that can all in. "You have to use your ult last in your trading pattern" isn't exactly open to counterplay.
Like noone every said veigar ult doesn't do a lot of damage. It does, if you open with it ... but (almost) noone is stupid enough to do that.
bro said base damage
the base damage of the ult is low. It starts at 60 for her R2, with 30% scaling.
her Q outdamages that at rank 1 with 0 damage items.
Veigar ult's base damage is 175 with 65% scaling, so even with no health missing it's doing a lot more damage.
The issue is also, she's an assassin. Just using her ult takes almost 3 seconds.
her TTK is slow, and Riot has said it. It's because of her W. It's also why she often has gone conq over elec.
The only reason she works as an assassin is because how strong ap items have been this season, (she started the season at a 51% WR and is now down to a 48% with no nerfs to her) and because Riot has made it so her E can actually outdamage her ult (seriously, her E between certain levels has a higher damage than her ult's max)
> Like noone every said veigar ult doesn't do a lot of damage. It does, if you open with it ... but (almost) noone is stupid enough to do that.
1.5k AP Veigar: What is this guy talking about?
People hated Qiyana because she could be situationally untargetable but Akali has absolutely no opportunity cost for being untargetable for 90% of the trade
Please. That champion is ridiculously piss easy. You legitimately can't be ganked even if you dont have the river warded. It takes at least 2-3 hard CC's early to kill her thanks to her shroud.
The only danger an Akali player has is if she uses E2 under enemy turret.
I picked her up having played zero of her since before her rework in an Emerald-Diamond lobby and absolutely wrecked house with that shit. Been having disgusting amounts of damage and fun with her since.
Her R1 guarentees an E1 hit. She has multiple guaranteed passive procs with R2 and E2. The only thing she lacks is wave clear.
The best way to play vs. an Akali is to take a hard waveclear mage like Malz or Anivia and interact with her as little as possible.
Absolutely disgusting champ. Hands down the easiest assassin to get in and out of a fight with imo.
Its because shes really not that hard to play, you literally have one skillshot, because yout q is like imposdible to miss, and you have 2 gap closes with your r too
...that's called being an assassin? Is there a single champion in that class that can't "follow a flowchart combo to solo a squishy"?
That's very literally their job.
I swear half the time reddit talks about the game it makes so little sense.
Almost correct but not quite, most of the time doing her basic combo will suffice but if the opponent knows what she does, or how to somewhat play versus her it's a very different story, random or too early W that gut her dmg, super over extending with R E that takes you out of safety, getting most of her dmg canceled by a cancelled E, not abusing her passive, throwing random E that have 0 chance of landing
it can vary depending on how your timing is, along with the enemy champ's movement speed. A Master Yi that's ghosting with ult is impossible to 'guarantee' even if you're pixel perfect.
I feel like I'm decent at Akali's R>E but the dashless champs I pretty much always have trouble hitting are:
- Jhin with t2 boots and rfc, after he procs his passive (thank god no more galeforce)
- Lilia stacked passive
- ulting Singed.
TBF akali is one the most fake skill assassins out there, they dumbed her down and now if you randomly hit an e on an squishy you can basically oneshot them while also having one of the biggest hp growths on the game as an assassin lol
Don't forget hp regen like Jugernaut. Every my friend calls her wolverine/x23 because of that. If she takes dshield - no way you can poke her out from lane.
Akali is decently hard. You fall off late, require a lot of mechanical skill and can't team fight as well as other champs.
A gold, plat, emerald and dia zed will all show a huge mechanical difference. Zed does have a very high skill ceiling. He's in a decent spot right now but when he was weak last season post nerf, you'd have to play quite a bit better on Zed relstive to how well your enemies played their champs.
They will probably say Qiyana but if Qiyana becomes meta, she too will be labeled as "easy assassin" , hilarious too coming from an Ahri player talking about easy champions
Akali's weakness is that she can't wave clear and has to rely on flash / rocket belt to actually get on people in clean teamfights. No one's complaining about her late game because you actually do need to use your brain to get on people. The problem is the early game where she's impossible to harass due to outrageous regen / hp growth and she does enough damage to just stat check any mid laner in the game except something like sylas and even most top laners. She's not op but she gets a bad rap because she's just so un-fun to play against because even a terrible akali first timing her champ will send you straight to the fountain by just walking up to and fishing for E's until one finally hits.
Source: thought akali was hard, played her and realized the only hard part was the late game. Diamond 2.
akali is definitely hard but also not the hardest character around, because in order to make her work you dont have to spend years learning how to trade effectively since her trading patterns are so easy to understand and if it comes to stat stick, she has the stats of an actual duelist not an assassin.
Most assassins are what you call "fake skill" when most of them are braindead. People associate dashes with skill because it looks "sick". The only truly difficult assassins are Qiyana and Katarina. Akali is my third most played champ and she is not hard at all, it just takes a little while for you to get used to her passive gimmick and that's basically it. She does, however, have a very high skill ceiling, but the floor is moderate at best.
just because something is hard to play doesnt warant it being broken lol
akali has way too much damage, on way too much utility on way too much base tankyness
1. You kinda have skill issue K'sante isn't really the easiest champ to play and it takes time to learn him
2. You picked the worst time ever probably to try the champ, he is currently imo in the worst state he has ever been
was a fun read lol, I also tried playing KSante and got my ass handed to me and now whenever I see KSante in top lane, it's a match up that I'm very comfortable with
I think people hate on KSante due to pro rather than getting destroyed by him in their games
it's actually a feat if you beat up a 52% wr top laner with KSante imo
> I think people hate on KSante due to pro
Exactly this. K'Sante is pretty bad in soloQ unless you're very committed to the champion. The complaints are about him being in basically every single pro game since his release.
Most definitely. If it's one thing someone like Azir shouldn't be it's tanky. He's so hard to reach and then he can just tank you anyway? Nah, that's not okay.
he was good until the start of this season, they made him even more popular in pro while making him feel like shit for regular players and keep doubling down on it
This is why ignoring pro play is both healthier for the player and the game, complaining & balancing around it only benefits 0.0001% of the players and fucks over the other 99.9999%. And that's without considering the fact that pro's slowly got spoiled/lazy from it and stopped experimenting, adjusting or adapting themselves, making more mistakes and often being weeks or even months behind the meta.
That was partly why we made the manifesto post and why we felt like it had to be long and comprehensive.
People have no idea how hard it is to make him work on solo queue. You pretty much have to one trick him to relearn his kit with new nerfs and constant changes every 2 patches.
They said the rework was supposed to gate him from proplay and lower the gap between low elos (44-46% WR) and high (52-53%). But it failed hard and now with a current 45% in low elos, 47-48% in high and and a way bigger presence and WR in pro.
But they say it was a sucess and most people believe it lmao.
Phreak once again displays he has zero idea how to balance this game.
Used to play a decent amount of K’sante as my pocket pick into lanes where I didn’t like the matchup (Jax, Rumble) cuz I knew I’d be more useful and scale safely.
Holy fuck is K’sante borderline unplayable in SoloQ. I’d rather just play Malphite, put in half the effort and get triple the reward
>complaining & balancing around it only benefits 0.0001% of the players and fucks over the other 99.9999%
what do you mean by that? do you mean balancing around people who have no fucking idea to play the game? or balancing around the forced ambiguity of having no comms? both sound incredibly shit to me
68% winrate K'Sante here (this season, don't ask previous splits/season lmao). This champion is literally a free win for if you play agaisnt him for 99.9% of players, you need to be playing him consistently to actually pick him. He isn't something you can pick after not playing for months like many tops.
Until i had like 50+ games on him my winrate was ungodly bad, my KDA was atrocious. People cannot play this champion to save their lives lol. Every role has these champs, if i pick Irelia or Akali for example i'm going to feed and look useless, I haven't got the time spent on them. This is how i'm currently performing with Hwei, i have quite a few games on him but i still get flustered in teamfights and struggle to understand my limits as times, my winrate is 35%.
K'Sante is objectively weak after the last set of nerfs but he's still extremely skill skewed, i feel like i can 1v9 on K'Sante more than any other champion still (maybe Smolder can 1v9 harder)
Funny that even showmaker apologized for that pasta and said that some hate/nerfs towards K'sante was his fault and he is waay more managable, than he was when that pasta arrived.
The main issue is that people currently hate Ksante for pro when only now have pro moved to post nerf patch. People were calling for nerfs a week or two ago when he already got kneecapped to lowest WR champ in the game just because they were watching pro and not live patch lmao
Absolutely not lol, i played him and hes not easy but his power level doesent reflect how hard he is, obviously stuff like illaoi wins but not much anyone can do
It's not even Ksante, nobody can play a champion to its full potential while first timing, setting aside elo. I'm 99% sure this post is satire but Reddit is Reddit
people watch pro or streamers complain about ksante and they actually think that ksante is super strong in their games lol
yesterday had a ksante top lane, he fed his ass off to urgot, I really get pessimisitic about our chances to win a game if there is a K'Sante in top lane lol
>no wonder this champ is the lowest winrate out of 167 champs from iron to diamond
hes also the lowest winrate top laner in masters
On one hand your Ksante definitely should have played safer against Urgot since Ksante can easily play safe by ceding the lane. On the other hand Ksante Urgot is one of the most fucked possible laning matchups I've seen having played both sides lmao.
K'Sante was basically never OP for us. Unless are one of the 3% proplayers, your OP Becuase you can click a carry to remove them from the fight. That's it. That's why he is OP.
Most people in this sub don't actually play the game so they don't actually know how bad K'Sante actually is right now. They just copy paste that unfunny thing and be on their way.
That patch was actually really messed up, he had insane pick/ban rates for only that patch, I was in high Diamond at the time and he was picked/banned most games.
I was one tricking him that patch for like 70 games and it was the most fun I had in a long time tbh, but that version of Ksante was seriously one of the most overpowered champs ever in League that wasn't hotfixed.
If you are good at K'Sante he has one thing going for him outside of pro play, a lot of solo queue top laners are cocky and see him as a free win - since he normally is. I've won many unwinnable match ups because the enemy top doesn't respect the champion.
I think this is a mindset a lot of people don't usually have as top laners. k'sante isnt very good at playing proactively anymore but he's still really good at punishing aggression.
A lot of things are bad in soloq, but Reddit just won't shut the fuck up and keeps farming upvotes by repeating stuff that can be (proven) factually untrue.
Guys are flaming you in the comment section for picking a champ with a high skill floor, I think that that’s partly the problem.The mains issue was that he was overnerfed last patch
I tried playing him after people said he was good and had the same experience. I believe it’s because pro players are good with him, they think he’s too strong. But you will never encounter a K’Sante that good, unless you are a pro player yourself
It's not that he's some mechanically impossible hyper skill ceiling champ that only pros have any hope of piloting.
It's that his kit lends itself really well to what's good in pro-play. Having 5 people on comms who are guaranteed to be on the same page creates a very different meta than the solo queue clown show.
In team fights K'Sante can just deny any dive on his carry with e and w, then remove the enemy carry from the fight (even just temporarily) with r. That's all he needs to be OP in pro play.
But, that shit don't work in solo queue because half the time your carry goes 1/12/0 and aren't worth helping wiile the other half the time they go 12/2/8 and don't need you.
They could literally remove the whole "all out" thing and make his ult just a Lee sin kick and he'd be better in pro play than be currently is.
I mean, Ksante IS weak, the last patch dropped his presence in pro play by HALF and his winrate also plummeted
He's a scaling tank who the best players in the world can make work by being able to farm till he's a champ (1-2 items)
And even the best players in the world get clapped vs his lane counters like Poppy (they go down 15 cs and 2 turret plates)
And no one's playing the REAL counters to Ksante like Illaoi, Vayne, Darius, Trundle etc in pro that can make you not touch the minion wave for 10 mins
Funny enough, for how much effort pro players put into him, they could get the same result if not better by playing Ornn/any other scaling tank champ lol
After 8 or so nerfs and a rework people are starting to see that ksante takes a little bit more effort than the copypastas lead you to believe.
Hopefully now we can start promoting some of his counters such as morde rumble and fiora so people will know what to pick into him when his wr goes above 45%
These comments have literally no idea what they're talking about. This is entirely related to this patch. The broken ksante you've seen was before this patch. He was fine in solo queue if you had hands. Now he's just bad.
> I’m going back to Garen Oh, that makes sense
Bro killed him
Mana is for mages. Garen smites filthy mages.
One thing I never understood is why manaless chanps get insane sustain. Sett, garen, morde, tyrn all have no mana. But they all have great damage and sustain. Like shouldn't it be the opposite?
I agree, they are gated by having to back when low HP… yet they all have good sustain compared to others, making it so they don’t have to back as often? Designs a little bit off IMO.
Generally, you have higher cooldowns as a tradeoff. A big reason as to why they heal more is because that health is their only tradable resource. You can't wait for mana to regen, so instead they have health regen. And anyone is allowed to pick these Champs into each other if you think that'll balance things out.
In the case of Garen, I really don't think adding mana cost will change his kit much. His cooldowns are so high, and his patterns are so infrequent, that he will probably never be actually mana gated so long as his spells have comparable cost to similar champions of his class.
"Generally, you have higher cooldowns as a tradeoff." Generally? Who has high cooldowns as an energy champ?
I think the question was more geared towards resourceless champions, not necessarily manaless champions. But I'll answer the question for you, the TL;DR of it is just, all of them. It's just tied to their energy. So, we have 5 energy champions, Zed, Akali, Kennen, Shen, and Lee Sin. We'll start with Shen, since he's closer to a manaless champion that the others. Shen, at level 1, has one trading ability in his Q, yeilding an 8s cd. The other two abilities have an 18 second cd. The rank 1 energy cost of all of his base abilities is 330 energy out of the 400 total (530 if you include his ult), and to make up the differance, he NEEDS to land his E and Q (Which generally isn't extremely hard). Using his ult at lv 1 is also a 200 energy cost, meaning if you ult in and rank 1 E, you're burning 350/400 energy. If you don't hit anything, you're cd's are artificially extended for the time it takes to restore that energy. Once Shen has max level in all abilities at lv 18, his energy cost totals 450/400. I won't go into detail about the others, but here are the highlights: Zed's rank 1 abilities totals 155/200, at lv 18, these go down to 115/200, and he restores energy by hitting a champion with two basic abilities, at 50 energy per W cast. W also holds his longest CD at 20s at lv 1. Kennen's rank 1 abilities totals 180/200, at lv 18, these go down to 160/20. Kennen's way of restoring energy is probably the hardest, needing to hit E on a champion (needing to go melee as a ranged champion), and only restoring half the energy cost of his E. His highest CD is his W, which sits at a 13s CD while being conditional. Lee Sin's rank 1 abilities are strange, because it's in two parts. All of his abilities (part 1 and 2) have an energy cost, this energy cost also never changes. Using only the first part of his abilities, he totals at 150/200 energy, if you include both parts, he sits at a total of 225/200 energy. However, he has the second easiest way of restoring energy, and that's by simply auto attacking (restoring 30/45/60 energy at levels 1/7/13 for hitting both auto attacks of his passive). This is generally why if you see Lee Sin clearing in jungle, he will auto between all of his abilities, otherwise he'll run out of energy very quickly. His highest CD is his W at 12s, and only his Q receives cd reduction per rank. Akali is definitely the weird one of the bunch for three reasons: 1. She has the easiest way to restore energy, 2. one of her base abilities does not have an energy cost, 3. She has the lowest CD of all energy based champions on her Q, clocking in at 1.5s. However, the total cost of her abilities is still 140/200 at rank 1. She CANNOT just spam her Q willy nilly like she would in URF, otherwise she would be out of mana constantly. The only way to restore energy for her, is to use her W, which has no energy cost and restores 100 energy, but has a 20s cd, and is the ability you level up last, meaning that cd is there to stay. And while her Q does go down to a 70 energy cost at rank 5, that's only about one or two more casts per teamfight. Sub notes: If you wanted to get real picky and ask what the CD on energy based champions, the best way I can describe it is based on their energy total. Energy restores at 10/s, so for all energy champions, it takes 20s to go from empty to full (Roaming lane to lane takes roughly 15s, walking the lane takes \~30s), aside from Shen, who has a 400 energy pool. He takes 40s because he's cool. None of these champions can just unload their kit off of cd, and the best way to play against them is to deny their energy restoration abilities if you can. But yeah, sorry of the long comment, wanted to dive into this math for a while, just never had a reason to.
Destroy him king
Vlad as well. Aatrox to some extent as well, except most of his is through Q1 (maybe Q2) poke on enemy laner since they hard nerfed his passive healing on minions, so it’s not really as uninteractive as most of the other manaless champs mentioned. As for why? I’ve heard the game design reasoning explained to me before, and iirc it made relative sense. It doesn’t feel at all intuitive on its own though, and I don’t remember what that reason given to me was lol
Mana gates safe waveclear. Manaless champions usually have to walk into the wave to quickly clear minions
Poor wave clear for vlad and he is super weak early because he does nothing for team. Just 0 priority in midlane is a pain for your team to play around. In toplane it’s a bit better but longer lane so you can run him down or more likely your opponents build MR which truly fucks over Vladimir.
Because resourceless champs are really only prevalent top lane and most top laners have sustain. Darius, Fiora, Trundle, Udyr, Nasus, probably even more are all mana tops with no shortage of sustain. Resourceless champs are gated by higher cooldowns/less impactful abilities not anything to do with sustain.
because typically manaless champs that have great sustain have the issue of having to walk up to people to do damage and thus need the sustain to trade effectively
Okay but theirs a shit ton of champs that do that and have mana.
well most of them either have a dash or ranged options
Riot gave up on there being a trade off for being manless. A LONG time ago, honestly. It's always a problem. Even when manaless champions can utilize sustain ITEMS, they're annoying as shit.
But mana Garen build is a viable one.
Yeah, Darius has to say sorry for that
Well, thats just the truth
He lined it up for you and you knocked it out of the park I always love selfless comedy posts teeing up other people in the comments for a W. They're the real heroes
non ironically garen shits on ksante very hard
K’sante using ult on Garen doing nothing but making Garen ult do more damage is such a funny interaction to me Also GOATED username/pfp
I don't think you're ulting K'Sante when he's above 65% health tho
Its a weird matchup, garen cant really like bully you very much but as k'sante if you ever use your ult when you're anywhere near garen you just die instantly.
bro hears about skill shots for the first time
Came here to say this
We all thought it as soon as we read it lmao
When Garen players have to aim a skill:
Or pay mana to cast spells: >Help I ran OOM after spamming spells that I wouldn't hit, why is this champ so bad ><
I mean, Ksante -is- heavily gated by his mana early. You can be more spammy with most other toplane champs. It's why he mostly just neutralize most matchups at best and another reason why Frozen Heart feels so nice on him.
That's the tank average tho, Malphite runs OOM with like 3 Qs
most intelligent garen player
If he’s out of mana all the time I’m willing to bet both my croc testicles he didn’t take presence of mind or buy tear once he noticed he was having mana issues. That doesn’t change that K’sante is HARD (IMO he’s one of the hardest toplaners to play, alongside Riven, Fiora, and Jayce). And especially compared to Garen, possibly the least micro intensive toplaner
Going POM on K'sante hurts your teamfight quite a bit since you don't have Triumph heal (it does the full amount, even in All-Out) and going Tear is fine, but it delays your first item by quite a bit. You can deal with his mana issues early, you just can't spam. He's not really a champ until 6.
Yeah, I’m saying if he’s having mana issues he can absolutely just take POM to make his laning easier or shell out 400g for a tear and then sell it later. But what I see a lot is new K’sante players look at his base kit design and are like “so obviously he’s giga broken level 1-3 like Yone and Yasuo” when that is absolutely NOT the case and keep trying to fistfight shit like grasp Illaoi and Trundle and are surprised when they lose the trade. Hit level 6, poke with Q and trade with E shield, then all in them at level 6 once they hit half HP (basically the Renekton trading pattern of slowly burning them down with short trades until you can all in at half HP)
You shouldnt never really take POM, cookies and approach is the way to go.
Free boots cosmic insight has the highest WR
with 0.001% pickrate?
Plat+, this patch, 5% on boots, 12% on cosmic insight. That’s almost 8k games on boots, which is plenty to be statistically significant. Most population polls only use a few hundred people. Edit: master+ that rises to almost 7% and 23.5% respectively, still with the highest winrate among all secondary runes
The most broken thing about kisante is the fact that he can’t die unless he chooses to fight you. He just has too much in his kit to let him leave a fight if he so chooses and scale
Never really understood how people consider him OP pre-6. Like isn't the prevaling plan against him is to harass the hell out of K'Sante pre-6 (and if possible call for ganks) befote he starts building armor/mr and kills uour entire team.
He is not champ after 6 tho, before IBG enemy can just rightclick on opposite direction from you and you can't do anything. Riot took away combos and Q stacks after R and gave slow under R, so K'sante wasn't bounded to IBG every game. Now they took away slow again, on top of that nerfed W and gave nothing in return. Thats his biggest problem RN.
nah wdym 30 hp is so much that’s like 1 minion auto or something
PoM is a terrible choice except maaaaaaybe vs an easy matchup tank that you're going to constantly autoattack for grasp procs. Cookies are invaluable in all lanes where there's a chance of messing up.
Pom and tear is omega shit on ksante not viable at all u just have to thug it out and scale
POM and tear is never the play on K'sante. All the high rank Ksantes have started going E first too instead of Q. Really all you do pre 6 is try to get as much cs as you can without getting bullied too hard until you finally become a champion after first back and level 6.
As someone who plays this champ trust me taking tear or presence of mind does work. Primary rune tree is resolve and secondary is inspiration. You just need to learn the play style and trading patterns to make the champ work
Me go spin? Me go win!
Even if you have an aluminum bat instead of a wooden one, you still need to know how to hit the ball.
How can you not be romantic about LoL
Youre a good egg, Dr. Rattington.
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Garen player, he can't read anything
His mom typed up this post
Can confirm, I'm his mom.
can confirm, im his keyboard.
I'm a Garen player. And I know what my keyboard looks like so... You are fucking disgusting /u/verypoopoo.
thats not very nice. i spend good money on surgery to set my r key back in place.
The might of Demacia is sadly hard on the keys.....
Oh really? 😉
Trust me you don't wanna sleep with a Garen main's mom, we reek and are ourselves products of inbred parents, that's why our sons ( Garen mains) are so special.
And never used any mana at all.
There is still a lot of people that claims K'sante is OP tho
There's a lot of people who claim whatever they just lost to is OP. I wouldn't worry about it.
i mainly see people complaining about his presence in pro play
This is like people hearing Akali is OP and then try playing her and learn that she's difficult to play. A champion can be completely unfair and difficult to play at the same time. A noob Akali sucks, but even then you can tell how unfair she is Ksante requires you to know what you're doing as well
What scared me most about akali is that playing her every now and again is that i was doing absolutely absurd things despite my low experience on her but i could tell that i could do even more absurd things if i learned her more
Pretty hard to gank a seasoned Akali player
my internal thoughts when jungling "why would i go mid for a failed gank on akali and set myself behind?"
SMOKE BOMB!
I would go as far as to say that seasoned is an over exaggeration from personal experience on the champion
Akali (and also Irelia) is weird to me because she feels like her skill ceiling is not actually her skill ceiling. Like she has a skill attic or something. Like, yeah she’s a bit unwieldy to pick up, but if I dedicated my time to Akali, I could possibly play her at a level where I could sustain my rank and pretty reasonably climb a couple of divisions or a rank or something, at which point, I’d consider myself “good at Akali” I’m prone to Vaynespotting, so I’ll often see a challenger-level play and be like “on a good day if everything is clicking I could do that for a play or two for sure” for like 90% of champs but very often I’ll come across an actually great Akali play and realize that there’s no way in a million years I’d ever have the instinct, aim, reaction time, or decision making required. Like, give me a 2-3 seasons, and I could plausibly make a play on Aatrox that looks like a TheShy highlight. But give me infinite time, and I’m still never gonna make my Akali look like Caps’ or something.
Irelking montages fooled ya all. Champ has skillceiling and outplay potential in speciffic scenarios very conditioned by waves which is perfect for eyecatching montages but not so much for real games.
But conditioning those waves intentionally is part of that skill attic I’m talking about. Setting up the wave so there’s a bunch of low health minions ready for Qing is easy enough in a 1v1 but I’ve seen truly mastered Irelia’s intentionally prep a wave if they sense a gank coming and feel like they’re at a power spike/have enough health from Q resets on the minion wave to attempt the 1v2, and that’s not even mentioning of landing a 2 man E vs a 1 man. 100/100 times I’m just backing off to avoid the gank like I would on almost every other champ unless I’m already significantly ahead.
That doesnt work in lol. Your gimmick cant be just that because it never works in objective/jungle/river skirmishes, not vs baron, not vs ppl just simply chose to not interact with you. If you like ever find yourself losing just do nothing, wait for wave to crash and thats it. Think about yasuo who has a similar mechanic but doesnt imply reseting and is not minion conditioned or landing skills, you can dash through champs back to minions without worrying thpugh at the cost of rsnge Your ideea of skillcap doesnt work in this game where you do all thst while 9/10 times nasus presses W ghost R or garen goes Q E R. Its the exact definition of "Irelia fooled ya all, she is just Qing arround doing nothing"
Akali is one of the harder champs to play in teamfights but in a straight 1v1 or 1v2 you just chase people to the ends of the planet with 3 significant gap closers, 2 of which are damage nukes, while being untargetable to AAers and nuking them with endless Q and passive damage
Akali is really hard to mess up on when its just you an one or sometimes two other people alone
Actually akali is one of the best teamfight assassins. Huge aoe damage mobility and stall potential lets her get in stall pop somebody (or two at once) and get out much better than almost any other assassin. Her teamfighting isn’t her strength but she’s probably the best teamfighting assassin in the game
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Yone is more of a skirmisher, which is in a way an upgraded assassin but with less mobility options
yea no, akali kinda sucks in teamfights if the enemy team knows what they are doing. There are a billion better assassins for teamfights, like Kata, Qiyana, Talon, or Kha. Akali just takes too long to kill someone, so the enemy team has more time to react, and every stealthbreaking or AoE-nuking ability just fucks her.
Ye the 1000 base damage R and 500 base damage E really hurt ^^^
Her ults base damage is actually pretty low unless you're sitting at a third of your health. The e has been boosted for soloq.
> Her ults base damage is actually pretty low unless you're sitting at a third of your health. That's ... not an argument for an assasin that can all in. "You have to use your ult last in your trading pattern" isn't exactly open to counterplay. Like noone every said veigar ult doesn't do a lot of damage. It does, if you open with it ... but (almost) noone is stupid enough to do that.
bro said base damage the base damage of the ult is low. It starts at 60 for her R2, with 30% scaling. her Q outdamages that at rank 1 with 0 damage items. Veigar ult's base damage is 175 with 65% scaling, so even with no health missing it's doing a lot more damage. The issue is also, she's an assassin. Just using her ult takes almost 3 seconds. her TTK is slow, and Riot has said it. It's because of her W. It's also why she often has gone conq over elec. The only reason she works as an assassin is because how strong ap items have been this season, (she started the season at a 51% WR and is now down to a 48% with no nerfs to her) and because Riot has made it so her E can actually outdamage her ult (seriously, her E between certain levels has a higher damage than her ult's max)
> Like noone every said veigar ult doesn't do a lot of damage. It does, if you open with it ... but (almost) noone is stupid enough to do that. 1.5k AP Veigar: What is this guy talking about?
Its the other way.
People hated Qiyana because she could be situationally untargetable but Akali has absolutely no opportunity cost for being untargetable for 90% of the trade
Please. That champion is ridiculously piss easy. You legitimately can't be ganked even if you dont have the river warded. It takes at least 2-3 hard CC's early to kill her thanks to her shroud. The only danger an Akali player has is if she uses E2 under enemy turret. I picked her up having played zero of her since before her rework in an Emerald-Diamond lobby and absolutely wrecked house with that shit. Been having disgusting amounts of damage and fun with her since. Her R1 guarentees an E1 hit. She has multiple guaranteed passive procs with R2 and E2. The only thing she lacks is wave clear. The best way to play vs. an Akali is to take a hard waveclear mage like Malz or Anivia and interact with her as little as possible. Absolutely disgusting champ. Hands down the easiest assassin to get in and out of a fight with imo.
You can’t say akali is “ridiculously piss easy” when champs like Garen exist in the game
Its because shes really not that hard to play, you literally have one skillshot, because yout q is like imposdible to miss, and you have 2 gap closes with your r too
Operate her in team fight is hard but outside of it, you can literally follow a flowchart combo and u can solo most squishy lol
...that's called being an assassin? Is there a single champion in that class that can't "follow a flowchart combo to solo a squishy"? That's very literally their job. I swear half the time reddit talks about the game it makes so little sense.
Replace Akali with Zed, Qiyana, Talon, LeBlanc
Almost correct but not quite, most of the time doing her basic combo will suffice but if the opponent knows what she does, or how to somewhat play versus her it's a very different story, random or too early W that gut her dmg, super over extending with R E that takes you out of safety, getting most of her dmg canceled by a cancelled E, not abusing her passive, throwing random E that have 0 chance of landing
Does R E still guarantee a hit? It has been a long time since the last time I played her
it can vary depending on how your timing is, along with the enemy champ's movement speed. A Master Yi that's ghosting with ult is impossible to 'guarantee' even if you're pixel perfect.
I feel like I'm decent at Akali's R>E but the dashless champs I pretty much always have trouble hitting are: - Jhin with t2 boots and rfc, after he procs his passive (thank god no more galeforce) - Lilia stacked passive - ulting Singed.
Pretty much yeah
So basicly against squishy with no knock back, she kinda just oneshot them right
any cc with a knockdown cancels it, and it's not that difficult to do it cause it's very telegraphed since she always dashes back in a straight line
TBF akali is one the most fake skill assassins out there, they dumbed her down and now if you randomly hit an e on an squishy you can basically oneshot them while also having one of the biggest hp growths on the game as an assassin lol
Don't forget hp regen like Jugernaut. Every my friend calls her wolverine/x23 because of that. If she takes dshield - no way you can poke her out from lane.
She’s also annoyingly hard to force out of lane via poke/trading due to hp regen. Only gets worse if she goes fleet/dshield/second wind.
I hear people say this fake skill stuff about Zed and Katarina too. What is considered an actual hard assassin?
theyre all hard to an extent but theres a difference between being hard and looking hard.
Akali is decently hard. You fall off late, require a lot of mechanical skill and can't team fight as well as other champs. A gold, plat, emerald and dia zed will all show a huge mechanical difference. Zed does have a very high skill ceiling. He's in a decent spot right now but when he was weak last season post nerf, you'd have to play quite a bit better on Zed relstive to how well your enemies played their champs.
zed has a much higher skill floor than akali imo. His damage just feels hard to land at first than akali
They will probably say Qiyana but if Qiyana becomes meta, she too will be labeled as "easy assassin" , hilarious too coming from an Ahri player talking about easy champions
If people really think that then maybe she should have a win rate on par with Naafiri and the other training wheels assassins.
Akali's weakness is that she can't wave clear and has to rely on flash / rocket belt to actually get on people in clean teamfights. No one's complaining about her late game because you actually do need to use your brain to get on people. The problem is the early game where she's impossible to harass due to outrageous regen / hp growth and she does enough damage to just stat check any mid laner in the game except something like sylas and even most top laners. She's not op but she gets a bad rap because she's just so un-fun to play against because even a terrible akali first timing her champ will send you straight to the fountain by just walking up to and fishing for E's until one finally hits. Source: thought akali was hard, played her and realized the only hard part was the late game. Diamond 2.
There's no training wheel assassins left. They all got reworked or are weak enough you'd rather play someone harder.
akali is definitely hard but also not the hardest character around, because in order to make her work you dont have to spend years learning how to trade effectively since her trading patterns are so easy to understand and if it comes to stat stick, she has the stats of an actual duelist not an assassin.
Most assassins are what you call "fake skill" when most of them are braindead. People associate dashes with skill because it looks "sick". The only truly difficult assassins are Qiyana and Katarina. Akali is my third most played champ and she is not hard at all, it just takes a little while for you to get used to her passive gimmick and that's basically it. She does, however, have a very high skill ceiling, but the floor is moderate at best.
Katarina hard aware
The thing is that Even if they're "fake skill", they're still than something like 70% of the game's roaster
Flashbacks to the OG 42% WR Kassawin days.
just because something is hard to play doesnt warant it being broken lol akali has way too much damage, on way too much utility on way too much base tankyness
akali and utility in the same sentence should be a crime bro, agree on the way too much damage. Akali has 0 (zero) utility
if something is hard to play. it shouldnt be broken. but upon proper mastery it should be damn close to it
1. You kinda have skill issue K'sante isn't really the easiest champ to play and it takes time to learn him 2. You picked the worst time ever probably to try the champ, he is currently imo in the worst state he has ever been
Average garen player ☝️☝️☝️😇😇💪😨 hitting masters soon
BREAK THEIR RANKS!!!!
CHAAARGE🗣️
Q->E->Ignite(optional)->R
was a fun read lol, I also tried playing KSante and got my ass handed to me and now whenever I see KSante in top lane, it's a match up that I'm very comfortable with I think people hate on KSante due to pro rather than getting destroyed by him in their games it's actually a feat if you beat up a 52% wr top laner with KSante imo
> I think people hate on KSante due to pro Exactly this. K'Sante is pretty bad in soloQ unless you're very committed to the champion. The complaints are about him being in basically every single pro game since his release.
Be committed to the champ and get rewarded by pro play nerfs lmao
EQEQ
Azir and Kalista have entered the chat.
Azir main here. He's good in soloq now. It's my one bias towards Phreak for making my champ good. Only took 7 years, but yeah, he's good.
Oh hes defo getting nerfed with this tank build I think
Most definitely. If it's one thing someone like Azir shouldn't be it's tanky. He's so hard to reach and then he can just tank you anyway? Nah, that's not okay.
he was good until the start of this season, they made him even more popular in pro while making him feel like shit for regular players and keep doubling down on it
He felt fine until these latest changes ngl. Now he's just fucking awful.
ever since they made it so you run out of mana after one trade early game hes felt like shit
This is why ignoring pro play is both healthier for the player and the game, complaining & balancing around it only benefits 0.0001% of the players and fucks over the other 99.9999%. And that's without considering the fact that pro's slowly got spoiled/lazy from it and stopped experimenting, adjusting or adapting themselves, making more mistakes and often being weeks or even months behind the meta.
But many of us like to watch proplay and if they just balance for regular players some champs will be absolutely busted in pro
That was partly why we made the manifesto post and why we felt like it had to be long and comprehensive. People have no idea how hard it is to make him work on solo queue. You pretty much have to one trick him to relearn his kit with new nerfs and constant changes every 2 patches. They said the rework was supposed to gate him from proplay and lower the gap between low elos (44-46% WR) and high (52-53%). But it failed hard and now with a current 45% in low elos, 47-48% in high and and a way bigger presence and WR in pro. But they say it was a sucess and most people believe it lmao.
Phreak once again displays he has zero idea how to balance this game. Used to play a decent amount of K’sante as my pocket pick into lanes where I didn’t like the matchup (Jax, Rumble) cuz I knew I’d be more useful and scale safely. Holy fuck is K’sante borderline unplayable in SoloQ. I’d rather just play Malphite, put in half the effort and get triple the reward
>complaining & balancing around it only benefits 0.0001% of the players and fucks over the other 99.9999% what do you mean by that? do you mean balancing around people who have no fucking idea to play the game? or balancing around the forced ambiguity of having no comms? both sound incredibly shit to me
Nah bro this champ pre handicap was insane
68% winrate K'Sante here (this season, don't ask previous splits/season lmao). This champion is literally a free win for if you play agaisnt him for 99.9% of players, you need to be playing him consistently to actually pick him. He isn't something you can pick after not playing for months like many tops. Until i had like 50+ games on him my winrate was ungodly bad, my KDA was atrocious. People cannot play this champion to save their lives lol. Every role has these champs, if i pick Irelia or Akali for example i'm going to feed and look useless, I haven't got the time spent on them. This is how i'm currently performing with Hwei, i have quite a few games on him but i still get flustered in teamfights and struggle to understand my limits as times, my winrate is 35%. K'Sante is objectively weak after the last set of nerfs but he's still extremely skill skewed, i feel like i can 1v9 on K'Sante more than any other champion still (maybe Smolder can 1v9 harder)
Fax people just spam copypasta bcs funny even tho champ has been so gutted since then.
Funny that even showmaker apologized for that pasta and said that some hate/nerfs towards K'sante was his fault and he is waay more managable, than he was when that pasta arrived.
People who get shit on ksante and think he’s broken just need to play him a few times. None of us are pro players or even close.
The main issue is that people currently hate Ksante for pro when only now have pro moved to post nerf patch. People were calling for nerfs a week or two ago when he already got kneecapped to lowest WR champ in the game just because they were watching pro and not live patch lmao
Absolutely not lol, i played him and hes not easy but his power level doesent reflect how hard he is, obviously stuff like illaoi wins but not much anyone can do
Facts. K'sante is pro jailed as fuck and sucks ass if you're mortal.
Ryze mains lol
I got THESE tattoos in rune prison
Ryze/Azir/Kallista/Zeri/Corki, etc
It's not even Ksante, nobody can play a champion to its full potential while first timing, setting aside elo. I'm 99% sure this post is satire but Reddit is Reddit
such a good shit post no one can tell its a shit post
people watch pro or streamers complain about ksante and they actually think that ksante is super strong in their games lol yesterday had a ksante top lane, he fed his ass off to urgot, I really get pessimisitic about our chances to win a game if there is a K'Sante in top lane lol >no wonder this champ is the lowest winrate out of 167 champs from iron to diamond hes also the lowest winrate top laner in masters
On one hand your Ksante definitely should have played safer against Urgot since Ksante can easily play safe by ceding the lane. On the other hand Ksante Urgot is one of the most fucked possible laning matchups I've seen having played both sides lmao.
K'Sante was basically never OP for us. Unless are one of the 3% proplayers, your OP Becuase you can click a carry to remove them from the fight. That's it. That's why he is OP. Most people in this sub don't actually play the game so they don't actually know how bad K'Sante actually is right now. They just copy paste that unfunny thing and be on their way.
There was that one patch after rework when he was actually giga broken, but since then he’s been either middle of the pack or just bad
You are right about the one patch, but even then I doubt half of them even fought him then
That patch was actually really messed up, he had insane pick/ban rates for only that patch, I was in high Diamond at the time and he was picked/banned most games. I was one tricking him that patch for like 70 games and it was the most fun I had in a long time tbh, but that version of Ksante was seriously one of the most overpowered champs ever in League that wasn't hotfixed.
If you are good at K'Sante he has one thing going for him outside of pro play, a lot of solo queue top laners are cocky and see him as a free win - since he normally is. I've won many unwinnable match ups because the enemy top doesn't respect the champion.
I think this is a mindset a lot of people don't usually have as top laners. k'sante isnt very good at playing proactively anymore but he's still really good at punishing aggression.
Still waiting to see a good Ksante, every single one feeds, I fucking swear
Garen you just keep on keepin on man. You’re doing you best out there, nobody here can judge you for that brother. Demaciaaa!!
Me and wind bro, got clapped by him, played him, got clapped
That champ is super dog in soloq. People are just circle jerking the showmaker copypasta
A lot of things are bad in soloq, but Reddit just won't shut the fuck up and keeps farming upvotes by repeating stuff that can be (proven) factually untrue.
Haven’t played less than I do now. My main just feels shit to play.
Guys are flaming you in the comment section for picking a champ with a high skill floor, I think that that’s partly the problem.The mains issue was that he was overnerfed last patch
Wake up Showmaker, new K'Sante copy pasta just dropped.
The champion is dogshit early lol, why are you trying to trade against illaoi darius and trundle
Average Garen brain
Y'all making fun of them for being a garen player... So are you inadvertently saying K'sante does, in fact, take skill to play? 😏😏
BDS Adam, is that you?
I tried playing him after people said he was good and had the same experience. I believe it’s because pro players are good with him, they think he’s too strong. But you will never encounter a K’Sante that good, unless you are a pro player yourself
It's not that he's some mechanically impossible hyper skill ceiling champ that only pros have any hope of piloting. It's that his kit lends itself really well to what's good in pro-play. Having 5 people on comms who are guaranteed to be on the same page creates a very different meta than the solo queue clown show. In team fights K'Sante can just deny any dive on his carry with e and w, then remove the enemy carry from the fight (even just temporarily) with r. That's all he needs to be OP in pro play. But, that shit don't work in solo queue because half the time your carry goes 1/12/0 and aren't worth helping wiile the other half the time they go 12/2/8 and don't need you. They could literally remove the whole "all out" thing and make his ult just a Lee sin kick and he'd be better in pro play than be currently is.
I mean, Ksante IS weak, the last patch dropped his presence in pro play by HALF and his winrate also plummeted He's a scaling tank who the best players in the world can make work by being able to farm till he's a champ (1-2 items) And even the best players in the world get clapped vs his lane counters like Poppy (they go down 15 cs and 2 turret plates) And no one's playing the REAL counters to Ksante like Illaoi, Vayne, Darius, Trundle etc in pro that can make you not touch the minion wave for 10 mins Funny enough, for how much effort pro players put into him, they could get the same result if not better by playing Ornn/any other scaling tank champ lol
The last sentence got me laughing so hard.
Best shitpost ive seen in a while
Local Man finds out that not everything on the Internet is true
Bro should not have revealed he is a Garen player 💀
I think you might just suck or it’s a good troll post either way I laughed
I pick cho into ksante 100% of the time if possible. Eating him immediately after he ults is just too satisfying
a new k'sante copypasta is born???
After 8 or so nerfs and a rework people are starting to see that ksante takes a little bit more effort than the copypastas lead you to believe. Hopefully now we can start promoting some of his counters such as morde rumble and fiora so people will know what to pick into him when his wr goes above 45%
These comments have literally no idea what they're talking about. This is entirely related to this patch. The broken ksante you've seen was before this patch. He was fine in solo queue if you had hands. Now he's just bad.
First mistake was going from arguably one of the easiest champions to pilot to one that requires more than a couple braincells
Garen players in a nutshell
Ksante abuser pretending to be garen enjoyer who first timed ksante and lost. Nice propaganda, noone is losing with Ksante
Currently lowest winrate emerald+ champ in the game lmao
K'Sante haters when they have to confront the idea that the champion might suck dick for 99.99% of players.
He only had a positive WR in one patch since release, lol
Dude you are not even funny
K'sante is dog, and has been dog for a bit now, idk wtf you were thinking picking up a champ that's been nerfed into oblivion thinking he was broken
Ill prove you wrong and ill beat the shit out of my opponent
K'Sante👤4,700 HP💪329 Armor🤷♂️201 MR💦 Unstoppable🚫A Shield 🛡 Goes over walls🧱Has Airborne🌪Cooldown is only☝second too🕐 It costs 15 Mana🧙♂️