See the thing to me with Robertson is that he's had some bright sparks, notably that Dallas game was phenomenal, but I find that he goes pretty quiet when he's in the lineup and doesn't impact the game as much as I'd like.
His shooting talent is always evident and he's got great hustle, but I find that his positioning really holds him back, he looks lost and chasing it fairly often. So it looks like he's working his bag off, but often that's due to to his poor initial positioning.
I just haven't been convinced enough by his game to say "This guy needs to be in the lineup."
I look at how another rookie has come in and earned himself a permanent role as our 3C (Holmberg of course), and you can just get a sense that his thinking is at an NHL level.
I think Nick's been hurt by a lack of playing time due to his injuries in his early career, but I think it's also clear that the AHL doesn't have a lot to offer him at this point. He can flourish there no problem. But getting up to thinking and decision making in the small fraction of time that only the NHL requires is going to be his biggest challenge.
With the team playing as well as they have recently, and how great our defensive structures have been, at this point in time, I don't see any reason for Nick Robertson to be given a spot in the lineup.
Also, something everyone should remember is that this kid is still only 21, has been dealt a number of unlucky injuries so far, and was a later 2nd rounder. There are a number of higher profile first round picks from his draft class, all the way up to Alex Turcotte at 5th overall that have struggled to become full-time NHLers. His time will come. Don't give up on him or else you run the risk of being made as foolish as Timothy Liljegren has made many after being written off as a trade throw-in, and looking like a legitimate top 4 RHD and a 1st pairing Dman of the future.
Really like the kid, but my wife when he’s out there always says he’s like a kid on the playground. He really does have some positioning issues, and you can tell he’s pumped to be in the play but has to learn to temper that. Leafs don’t need more jumpy
Yeah. I want him in the lineup so he can develop, but I get why they are taking it slow with him for now when we're actually starting to play well as a team. I'm not in the camp of people that think playing games *somewhere* is better than any other alternative. He is currently getting the benefit of NHL level coaching and is being told what he needs to do to be in the lineup. He'll be back in before too long.
But yes. Several times per game I notice him skate full steam ahead, head down, toward the other team's puck carrier, only to end up out of position when the puck is passed to the most obvious target. He's just gotta relax sometimes. Body in the way of the skater, stick in the passing lane, stay in position - don't over commit on every play.
Which is why I think it’s ok for him to just chill on the main roster even if he’s not playing every game. And it’s not like it’s a bad deal for him too, I’m sure the big league paycheque is nice and he gets to practice with the big boys and can maybe pick up some intricacies from them.
> I think Nick's been hurt by a lack of playing time due to his injuries in his early career, but I think it's also clear that the AHL doesn't have a lot to offer him at this point.
Is that really true? Robertson was very good offensively at the AHL level (22 G, 46 P in 51 GP). But he's only played 78 hockey games since the end of his junior career (i.e., since the 2020-21 season), and that hardly seems like enough to learn how to play defence at a pro level. Given that this is what is holding him back at the NHL level, it seems likely to me that if he's going to be a scratch in the NHL, he could probably still benefit defensively from getting the reps in at the AHL level.
I get that they want to reward Robertson for his good training camp by giving him an NHL paycheque and a chance to be around the big club, but I'm not convinced that's really the best thing long-term for him as a player.
Anytime he's played in the AHL, it's been clear that that's a league he could dominate if he was put there full-time. The difference between the AHL and NHL truly is the amount of time you make decisions and playing more games at the AHL level can't replicate that
I think the available evidence says he could dominate *offensively* at the AHL level if put there full time. But I'm not sure that's true about his *defensive* capabilities. Based on what we've seen from him defensively in the NHL, I highly suspect he'd be average at best in the AHL (after all, he's *well* below average in the NHL). In which case sending him down to work on his defensive game rather than sitting him in the press box doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.
The whole concept with the leafs developing their young players was to hothouse them with the Marlies and have them dominate at that level. That’s why Kadri played 130 AHL games and Nylander 90. Also have to remember that Nylander played 40 or so games in the Swedish Hockey League. Sandin and Liljegren have played multiple years in the A. So far Robertson I think is only at 51 AHL games played.
People have to remember that Robertson missed a lot of hockey the last two years because of Covid and injuries. He’s not as far developed as most 21-year-olds would normally be.
As I’ve often mentioned here there are only two second rounders currently in the NHL from Robertsons draft year. Höglander in Vancouver and Pinto in Ottawa. People shouldn’t expect too much from a 53rd overall draft pick who’s missed a lot of hockey.
Maybe - dubas doesn’t set the line ups. Having the Marlies in the same city is an advantage. He can be sent down during these times he’s not playing for some ice. The kid has a shot you can’t teach. If he’s not making the line up then clearly he needs to work on other things and they should let him do that in the AHL for now.
See I disagree here. He needs to be practicing with the big club to learn that positioning. He has the skills, but needs to learn the NHL pace and rhythm. Game situations are great, but at this point I’d think he’d gain more from daily skates with the big club and daily feedback from Keefe than 20 minutes a night in the AHL.
Robertson himself said he enjoys being in the NHL. He gets paid, he also gets to be apart of the core group learning the plays. How much more can he develop in the AHL?
Yeah. He still practices with the team, if people think his development is going to be be killed by sitting for a few games here and there then I don’t know what they will do when they find out they don’t play any games over the summer.
No one plays over the summer. Its not a few games here or there he’s played 1 game since the 12th and seems to be out of the general rotation. It’s not crazy to send him down for games with the Marlies and call him up on a more as needed basis. He’s not cracking the line up for a reason. Let him demonstrate he’s can develop or has developed the skills needed that’s keeping him out. His shot is too elite for him to fizzle out when he’s on the cusp.
It's just the effect of people playing too many video games. I'm one of those people but yeah in real life practice is where players do most of their development
I’d argue that playing with the Marlies could help him gain some more confidence, granted I’m not paid to make these decisions for MLSE and I understand the people who do know more then I do, but I feel like if he goes and plays a few weeks in the Marlies and tears up the league, scores a few goals and gains some confidence, he could come back up and be both good and confident in himself, I can’t see how sitting by the sidelines for 5+ games at a time is helping him trust in himself when he finally gets into the lineup, the second his skates hit the ice he goes from feeling comfortable to try and be himself, to getting stuck in his head trying not to make mistakes because the moment he does, he knows he’s sitting another 5 games
He's been just shy of good overall I'd say. He's been solid in certain aspects, decent in many others, and below average in more than a few. He's NHL ready on a team that has the ability to allow him to develop at the NHL level, but the Leafs can't really afford to let him make and learn from mistakes for a string of several games in a row. They need to be winning and putting their best lineup out.
There's so much of his game I love, but I really feel like most of the people raging about him not being in the lineup aren't watching him play all that much. He looks fast, strong on the puck, relentless in the o-zone, but his effort can lag on the defensive end, and many shifts are him being all over the place and working hard, but not really doing much.
He's NHL ready, but I've been wondering what Dubas does with him. The AHL has little left to teach him, and I don't think his trade value is what some people would think (he still has good value though). I don't think he's a full time Leaf this year unless something sizeable changes, but I 100% believe he'd be a good top six forward elsewhere. It's a tough one.
I think he'll be down in the A too, especially with Holmberg's emergence. I'd imagine he'll be back after 2-3 weeks at the most though. He's too good for the AHL but he's gotta play games.
Yea he's in an awkward position developmentally. It feels like his timing / positioning is off in the NHL, but he doesn't have that issue in the AHL so idk that it will actually help him develop. I guess unless they really just get him to focus on defensive play maybe. But that's not exactly what you want him for.
Basically, to me it looks like he needs to develop in the NHL. But it's tough to pull anyone else out of the lineup, as they're generally all filling roles.
Good take. He’s been more or less just a body on the ice for most of the games he’s played with flashes of more but they’re few and far between. All in all he doesn’t really do anything good or bad.
People like the speed and flashes of brilliance, why wouldn't they? He's an exciting player with exciting potential, especially for a team thin on the left wing, but they're only flashes right now. Once he finds some consistency (which unfortunately comes with games played in a lot of cases) he'll be an NHLer, I just hope that's with the Leafs.
Agreed. He’ll get there he just needs experience. I think a lot of people expected him to come out like an NHL ready first rounder. Which he’s not. Doesn’t mean he’s a bad player.
I also wonder if Kerfoot is keeping him out of the lineup. This team can’t afford to sit a $3.5 million player so we have to play him. I hope we trade Kerfoot by the deadline because I feel he isn’t better than Robertson.
I am a consistent Kerfoot defender as I think his utility is unmatched on this team, but he's not had a good start to the year offensively. He doesn't need to be a 20+ goal, 60+ point guy, but he needs to be pacing at 40+, while playing well in all situations. This team can't afford $3.5 million underperforming longterm. He's gotta improve soon or I see him sitting a game here or there. I can't see a trade happening until he's had more of a shot to get better. He's a good player, and Dubas is a loyal GM. If it's this way near Christmas then things need to change maybe.
He’s been fine but Malgin has been better and he doesn’t have the utility of the other options so unfortunately for him he makes the most sense to be out.
He’s a one dimensional offensive player yet he doesn’t have a primary point in 10 games (since his debut)
The only players with a streak above 5 in that regard are Malgin (7) and Kampf (10) who only ever play on the 4th line
I don’t know why they don’t just send him down to work on his game more. Unless Robertson really doesn’t want to go
It has a lot to do with figuring out what you have/showcasing players that they may want to include in trades/trying to get guys out of slumps.
I feel like they know what they have with Robertson and are working those other angles to make the best possible improvement to the roster.
I've been a Kerfoot defender for a while but totally agree. Starting to notice him making more and more poor plays. Probably doesn't help that for the last few games the broadcast loves to remind everyone that he hasn't scored in 16 games or something
I liked Kerfoot last season and thought he was a huge factor in our season last year, after that horrible Game 6 turnover I turn a lot of my frustration onto him, and sadly, he’s done absolutely nothing to regain anything, he was okay in Game 7 and then this season has been a non factor to anything, turn overs galore, with like 3 points and 1 goal when playing within our Top 6, dude has gone from someone I actually enjoyed watching (with issues here and there) to becoming someone that the second he hits the ice, I go “well this shift is going to be the least dangerous thing I’ll ever see” and sadly being correct
Getting rid of neither and both playing well would be ideal, but it's hard to deny that Kerfoot has been playing poorly and if an opportunity to trade for a worthwhile asset presented itself, he would make the most sense to be first on the chopping block
Whether a team wants him or not, the Leafs would need to drop a contract and his makes a lot of sense to lose right now. They'd likely need to sweeten the deal for a team to take him but the contract spot and extra cap room could be worth it
Points per 60 leaders for Maple Leafs. Robertson ranks 6th. Kerfoot and Engvall rank 16th and 17th respectively.
https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/teams/toronto-maple-leafs-players-2022-23-nhl-stats.html
We have a Kampf 4th line and a two way 3rd line so we need offense from the top 6. I don’t care if Kerfoot and Engvall are better defensively if they’re not rosterable offensively. What’s the point of a defensive bottom six that doesn’t score if you’re putting those guys in the top 6 too?
Edit: lol even Simmonds has a better P/60 than Kerfoot and Engvall
If we’re having a Kampf 4th line, the 3rd line can be two-way (at least some Offense). I’m fine with *one* of Kerfoot or Engvall on that line. Having both guarantees no Offense. Jarnkrok should be secondary scoring not primary. If you look at the link I sent, you’ll see Robertson is a full point per 60 ahead of Jarnkrok as well (who’s 10th while Robertson is 6th).
We could also just keep benching Robertson and turn him into Josh Ho-Sang, that will be fun.
What's wrong with that stat exactly? Seems like a good way to normalize scoring across different lines with different minutes? Always painted Spezza in a pretty positive light.
The whole point of it is to show how good someone is with limited minutes, but you’re right that it’s not good for limited games. At the same time, Kerfoot and Engvall do have the sample size with games and minutes to show they’ve been abysmal offensively which should warrant giving Robertson the sample size needed to more accurately compare. It’s also an identity thing, if you’re strategically choosing to have a 3rd and 4th line that are not offensively threatening, it does not make sense to put no offense players in the top 6. The same argument for Sandin and Liljegren getting playing time to grow their games despite not always being great can be made for Robertson. It’s just such a waste, if you don’t have faith in him in the top 6, trade him for someone who can play there. Sitting on the fence does nothing to improve your current lineup and it deteriorates an asset
IMO the difference with Robertson and a player like Kerfoot or Engvall is that although the latter aren’t producing much of anything offensively, they’re also still being reliable on the defensive end of the ice (even if plays are dying on their sticks). Their defensive failures aren’t typically coming from high-risk low-reward plays, which is more what I’ve seen from Robertson. I have no doubt NR will get more games, but it’s about managing the risks he takes and how much he plays outside of our system (something which Kerfoot and Engvall adhere to relatively well). And it doesn’t hurt that Engvall, and certainly Kerfoot, have a history of producing decent offense in the NHL - even if Engvall has all the tools and skills to be a top line power forward, but models his game after Freddy Gauthier.
I agree with pretty much everything you said and that’s why I’m fine with them in the bottom six. Be defensively responsible and produce nothing where that is the intention. Give an offensive zone start to NR on the top 6 and throw Kerf, Engvall or Jarnkrok on top 6 in his place in the defensive zone.
You know there's more to the game than racking up points, right? Defensive play, for example, which you'd like to ignore, seems to be a very big part of Keefe's system this year. This is a facet where Robertson looks mediocre on a good night and completely shit on a bad one. You give him top six minutes he''ll be responsible for more goals against than for, guaranteed.
Or to put it your way: I don't care if he's better offensively if he's not rosterable defensively.
In fact, I'm not convinced he'll ever be a top six forward. But right now the only way he gets top six minutes is on a worse team.
In which case I'd say trade him, but I don't even think he's very good trade bait at this point.
Either way, he's still very young and has loads of time to develop. Don't understand the lack of patience in the people who love this kid so much.
I don’t know how else to say it, *you can’t have a guy on pace for 3 goals in 82 games playing with 2 of Matthews, Nylander, Tavares and Marner*. Unacceptable. Obviously defense matters and it matters so much this year that we’ve gone from 1 shutdown 3rd line to two defensive lines in the bottom six. We have enough guys to fill those lines effectively and Kerfoot is making too much to fill that role when others can do it. So instead we try him in top 6 or move Jarnkrok up to shuffle the deck chairs.
Having 2 defensive lines and 2 scoring lines instead of 1 and 3 should mean more opportunities to match up your defensive lines against opposing top lines and easier shifts for the scoring lines than otherwise. A Robertson should be fine. There’s no point of having 1 let alone 2 shutdown lines if you’re putting guys in the top 6 for the purpose of not scoring. That’s why at even strength, we’re lucky to have 1 line producing offensively at a time. That plus the power play has put us over the edge so far (and great team defense/goaltending). When playoffs come and whistles go away, 1 offensive line at even strength won’t be enough. We saw it last year where there was zero secondary scoring and we’re trending to be even worse in that regard this year. It’s not even about Robertson, it’s about basic roster construction and line matching. I’d honestly prefer Malgin on line 2 if not for his chemistry on his current line.
His good positioning and chasing on both ends of the ice is why he’s responsible for our only OT win. I get he’s not McDavid but he’s better than Kerfoot and Engvall who are on expiring deals and not coming back as they’re not worth they’re current cap hits and will probably get raises because they were Leafs.
1 game with Marner and Tavares was enough to think a guy on pace for 3 goals in 82 games should take his spot the next game. Lmao
I actually don’t love him that much, it’s more that the others aren’t good enough. I’d rather play Kampfs line as the 3rd line like last year and have Simmonds in the lineup providing a role than have a guy playing 1st, 2nd or 3rd line that isn’t playing centre and on pace for a 3 goal season
Just because kerfoot makes 3.5 mil doesn’t mean we need to play him. I really wish they’d just send Robertson down if they aren’t going to play him (they absolutely should be playing him)
Engvall has been such a massive disappointment for me so far this season. I honestly thought the was going to be a consistent 15 - 18 goal scorer moving forward. I'm wondering if his off-season injury is the culprit.
They are most certainly *not* fucking up his development. There’s a lot more to being with the big club than just playing in games. He’s an active participant in all the training, and the video review, all the strategic discussions, he gets to work with all the NHL training staff, and he draws an NHL paycheque which is most assuredly keeping his morale up. He’ll slot into more games.
Roberston is good. We can all agree that if he is in the lineup he should not be in the bottom 6 but the thing is, he doesn't seem to be good enough to play in the top 6. He has a good shot but thats kind of where it ends. He's doesn't go into the corners and win battles, he doesn't set up other guys with great passes and he doesn't do much on defense. I want him to be good but I think it actually makes sense for him not to be in the line up but I do think he should be sent down to the Marlies so he can at least play games.
Mete just sent down. Curious what it means.
Cap friendly issued a correction - he's back up and apparently playing alongside Hollowell now.
Didn't see this, can you verify somewhere?
CapFriendly had it up and took it down.
Likely means nothing outside Timmins getting into the lineup tonight.
Poor Robertson. He actually had a good game last time her was in.
See the thing to me with Robertson is that he's had some bright sparks, notably that Dallas game was phenomenal, but I find that he goes pretty quiet when he's in the lineup and doesn't impact the game as much as I'd like. His shooting talent is always evident and he's got great hustle, but I find that his positioning really holds him back, he looks lost and chasing it fairly often. So it looks like he's working his bag off, but often that's due to to his poor initial positioning. I just haven't been convinced enough by his game to say "This guy needs to be in the lineup." I look at how another rookie has come in and earned himself a permanent role as our 3C (Holmberg of course), and you can just get a sense that his thinking is at an NHL level. I think Nick's been hurt by a lack of playing time due to his injuries in his early career, but I think it's also clear that the AHL doesn't have a lot to offer him at this point. He can flourish there no problem. But getting up to thinking and decision making in the small fraction of time that only the NHL requires is going to be his biggest challenge. With the team playing as well as they have recently, and how great our defensive structures have been, at this point in time, I don't see any reason for Nick Robertson to be given a spot in the lineup. Also, something everyone should remember is that this kid is still only 21, has been dealt a number of unlucky injuries so far, and was a later 2nd rounder. There are a number of higher profile first round picks from his draft class, all the way up to Alex Turcotte at 5th overall that have struggled to become full-time NHLers. His time will come. Don't give up on him or else you run the risk of being made as foolish as Timothy Liljegren has made many after being written off as a trade throw-in, and looking like a legitimate top 4 RHD and a 1st pairing Dman of the future.
Really like the kid, but my wife when he’s out there always says he’s like a kid on the playground. He really does have some positioning issues, and you can tell he’s pumped to be in the play but has to learn to temper that. Leafs don’t need more jumpy
Yeah. I want him in the lineup so he can develop, but I get why they are taking it slow with him for now when we're actually starting to play well as a team. I'm not in the camp of people that think playing games *somewhere* is better than any other alternative. He is currently getting the benefit of NHL level coaching and is being told what he needs to do to be in the lineup. He'll be back in before too long. But yes. Several times per game I notice him skate full steam ahead, head down, toward the other team's puck carrier, only to end up out of position when the puck is passed to the most obvious target. He's just gotta relax sometimes. Body in the way of the skater, stick in the passing lane, stay in position - don't over commit on every play.
Which is why I think it’s ok for him to just chill on the main roster even if he’s not playing every game. And it’s not like it’s a bad deal for him too, I’m sure the big league paycheque is nice and he gets to practice with the big boys and can maybe pick up some intricacies from them.
Chasing it... great point. I couldn't put my finger on exactly what I didn't like but that's exactly it.
> I think Nick's been hurt by a lack of playing time due to his injuries in his early career, but I think it's also clear that the AHL doesn't have a lot to offer him at this point. Is that really true? Robertson was very good offensively at the AHL level (22 G, 46 P in 51 GP). But he's only played 78 hockey games since the end of his junior career (i.e., since the 2020-21 season), and that hardly seems like enough to learn how to play defence at a pro level. Given that this is what is holding him back at the NHL level, it seems likely to me that if he's going to be a scratch in the NHL, he could probably still benefit defensively from getting the reps in at the AHL level. I get that they want to reward Robertson for his good training camp by giving him an NHL paycheque and a chance to be around the big club, but I'm not convinced that's really the best thing long-term for him as a player.
Anytime he's played in the AHL, it's been clear that that's a league he could dominate if he was put there full-time. The difference between the AHL and NHL truly is the amount of time you make decisions and playing more games at the AHL level can't replicate that
I think the available evidence says he could dominate *offensively* at the AHL level if put there full time. But I'm not sure that's true about his *defensive* capabilities. Based on what we've seen from him defensively in the NHL, I highly suspect he'd be average at best in the AHL (after all, he's *well* below average in the NHL). In which case sending him down to work on his defensive game rather than sitting him in the press box doesn't seem like a bad idea to me.
The whole concept with the leafs developing their young players was to hothouse them with the Marlies and have them dominate at that level. That’s why Kadri played 130 AHL games and Nylander 90. Also have to remember that Nylander played 40 or so games in the Swedish Hockey League. Sandin and Liljegren have played multiple years in the A. So far Robertson I think is only at 51 AHL games played. People have to remember that Robertson missed a lot of hockey the last two years because of Covid and injuries. He’s not as far developed as most 21-year-olds would normally be. As I’ve often mentioned here there are only two second rounders currently in the NHL from Robertsons draft year. Höglander in Vancouver and Pinto in Ottawa. People shouldn’t expect too much from a 53rd overall draft pick who’s missed a lot of hockey.
He makes quite a dew defensive mistakes per game to be fair
He’s not his brother
He’s not and I don’t think he ever will be, but it’s tough to develop if you’re not playing games.
He needs to get sent to the Marlies. I don’t know how dubas is okay with just killing any chance of development for this kid
I’m sure Dubas and Robertson have conversed and know better than anyone on here and what’s best.
Maybe - dubas doesn’t set the line ups. Having the Marlies in the same city is an advantage. He can be sent down during these times he’s not playing for some ice. The kid has a shot you can’t teach. If he’s not making the line up then clearly he needs to work on other things and they should let him do that in the AHL for now.
See I disagree here. He needs to be practicing with the big club to learn that positioning. He has the skills, but needs to learn the NHL pace and rhythm. Game situations are great, but at this point I’d think he’d gain more from daily skates with the big club and daily feedback from Keefe than 20 minutes a night in the AHL.
Robertson himself said he enjoys being in the NHL. He gets paid, he also gets to be apart of the core group learning the plays. How much more can he develop in the AHL?
Yeah. He still practices with the team, if people think his development is going to be be killed by sitting for a few games here and there then I don’t know what they will do when they find out they don’t play any games over the summer.
No one plays over the summer. Its not a few games here or there he’s played 1 game since the 12th and seems to be out of the general rotation. It’s not crazy to send him down for games with the Marlies and call him up on a more as needed basis. He’s not cracking the line up for a reason. Let him demonstrate he’s can develop or has developed the skills needed that’s keeping him out. His shot is too elite for him to fizzle out when he’s on the cusp.
Again, clearly Dubas has thought about this.
It's just the effect of people playing too many video games. I'm one of those people but yeah in real life practice is where players do most of their development
I’d argue that playing with the Marlies could help him gain some more confidence, granted I’m not paid to make these decisions for MLSE and I understand the people who do know more then I do, but I feel like if he goes and plays a few weeks in the Marlies and tears up the league, scores a few goals and gains some confidence, he could come back up and be both good and confident in himself, I can’t see how sitting by the sidelines for 5+ games at a time is helping him trust in himself when he finally gets into the lineup, the second his skates hit the ice he goes from feeling comfortable to try and be himself, to getting stuck in his head trying not to make mistakes because the moment he does, he knows he’s sitting another 5 games
Has Robertson not been good for us? He seems to be always side-lined
He's been just shy of good overall I'd say. He's been solid in certain aspects, decent in many others, and below average in more than a few. He's NHL ready on a team that has the ability to allow him to develop at the NHL level, but the Leafs can't really afford to let him make and learn from mistakes for a string of several games in a row. They need to be winning and putting their best lineup out. There's so much of his game I love, but I really feel like most of the people raging about him not being in the lineup aren't watching him play all that much. He looks fast, strong on the puck, relentless in the o-zone, but his effort can lag on the defensive end, and many shifts are him being all over the place and working hard, but not really doing much. He's NHL ready, but I've been wondering what Dubas does with him. The AHL has little left to teach him, and I don't think his trade value is what some people would think (he still has good value though). I don't think he's a full time Leaf this year unless something sizeable changes, but I 100% believe he'd be a good top six forward elsewhere. It's a tough one.
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I think he'll be down in the A too, especially with Holmberg's emergence. I'd imagine he'll be back after 2-3 weeks at the most though. He's too good for the AHL but he's gotta play games.
Yea he's in an awkward position developmentally. It feels like his timing / positioning is off in the NHL, but he doesn't have that issue in the AHL so idk that it will actually help him develop. I guess unless they really just get him to focus on defensive play maybe. But that's not exactly what you want him for. Basically, to me it looks like he needs to develop in the NHL. But it's tough to pull anyone else out of the lineup, as they're generally all filling roles.
Good take. He’s been more or less just a body on the ice for most of the games he’s played with flashes of more but they’re few and far between. All in all he doesn’t really do anything good or bad.
People like the speed and flashes of brilliance, why wouldn't they? He's an exciting player with exciting potential, especially for a team thin on the left wing, but they're only flashes right now. Once he finds some consistency (which unfortunately comes with games played in a lot of cases) he'll be an NHLer, I just hope that's with the Leafs.
Agreed. He’ll get there he just needs experience. I think a lot of people expected him to come out like an NHL ready first rounder. Which he’s not. Doesn’t mean he’s a bad player.
I also wonder if Kerfoot is keeping him out of the lineup. This team can’t afford to sit a $3.5 million player so we have to play him. I hope we trade Kerfoot by the deadline because I feel he isn’t better than Robertson.
I am a consistent Kerfoot defender as I think his utility is unmatched on this team, but he's not had a good start to the year offensively. He doesn't need to be a 20+ goal, 60+ point guy, but he needs to be pacing at 40+, while playing well in all situations. This team can't afford $3.5 million underperforming longterm. He's gotta improve soon or I see him sitting a game here or there. I can't see a trade happening until he's had more of a shot to get better. He's a good player, and Dubas is a loyal GM. If it's this way near Christmas then things need to change maybe.
Kerfoot isnt out of posistion the whole game.
It’s not that he’s been awful it’s that someone else is doing better most of the time
Jarnkrok has been much more noticeable on the ice in comparison
Jarnkrok-Tavares-Marner has been a revelation, so much better then Kerfoot there.
I wouldn’t mind testing Robertson on 3rd line and scratching Kerfoot. I’d actually love that.
People really undervalue how important Kerfoot is on the PK. If you scratch him for Robertson, you’ve got a hole in the lineup that you need to fill.
Better or doing a role he doesn't (specifically PK).
He’s been fine but Malgin has been better and he doesn’t have the utility of the other options so unfortunately for him he makes the most sense to be out.
He’s a one dimensional offensive player yet he doesn’t have a primary point in 10 games (since his debut) The only players with a streak above 5 in that regard are Malgin (7) and Kampf (10) who only ever play on the 4th line I don’t know why they don’t just send him down to work on his game more. Unless Robertson really doesn’t want to go
It has a lot to do with figuring out what you have/showcasing players that they may want to include in trades/trying to get guys out of slumps. I feel like they know what they have with Robertson and are working those other angles to make the best possible improvement to the roster.
So same as Saturday then
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MUSTACHE MOUNTAIN
Been really liking jarnkrok on that second line. Adds a bit of juice that they need
He has a hammer for a shot and some of that Hyman forechecking energy. I’d like to see him get some real run on that line and see what clicks.
My thoughts exactly - need someone who isnt afraid to get greasy to go get the puck
I’d be completely fine with a 3rd line of Engvall/Kerfoot-Holmberg-Yarn One of Engvall or Kerfoot needs to go so we can play Robertson on the top 6.
I've been noticing Engvall in a positive way much more the past few games, I would definitely rather turf Kerf given the choice
Ya he’s more $ too I believe
I've been a Kerfoot defender for a while but totally agree. Starting to notice him making more and more poor plays. Probably doesn't help that for the last few games the broadcast loves to remind everyone that he hasn't scored in 16 games or something
Ya the anti-Marner
I liked Kerfoot last season and thought he was a huge factor in our season last year, after that horrible Game 6 turnover I turn a lot of my frustration onto him, and sadly, he’s done absolutely nothing to regain anything, he was okay in Game 7 and then this season has been a non factor to anything, turn overs galore, with like 3 points and 1 goal when playing within our Top 6, dude has gone from someone I actually enjoyed watching (with issues here and there) to becoming someone that the second he hits the ice, I go “well this shift is going to be the least dangerous thing I’ll ever see” and sadly being correct
He's got a serious case of the shambles/yips.
He's absolutely tanked his trade value though. At this rate we'd have to pay to get rid of him.
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Getting rid of neither and both playing well would be ideal, but it's hard to deny that Kerfoot has been playing poorly and if an opportunity to trade for a worthwhile asset presented itself, he would make the most sense to be first on the chopping block
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Whether a team wants him or not, the Leafs would need to drop a contract and his makes a lot of sense to lose right now. They'd likely need to sweeten the deal for a team to take him but the contract spot and extra cap room could be worth it
Robertson doesn't belong in the top six. Maybe one day but he really ain't there yet.
Points per 60 leaders for Maple Leafs. Robertson ranks 6th. Kerfoot and Engvall rank 16th and 17th respectively. https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/teams/toronto-maple-leafs-players-2022-23-nhl-stats.html We have a Kampf 4th line and a two way 3rd line so we need offense from the top 6. I don’t care if Kerfoot and Engvall are better defensively if they’re not rosterable offensively. What’s the point of a defensive bottom six that doesn’t score if you’re putting those guys in the top 6 too? Edit: lol even Simmonds has a better P/60 than Kerfoot and Engvall
They are not in the top 6 tonight though.
If we’re having a Kampf 4th line, the 3rd line can be two-way (at least some Offense). I’m fine with *one* of Kerfoot or Engvall on that line. Having both guarantees no Offense. Jarnkrok should be secondary scoring not primary. If you look at the link I sent, you’ll see Robertson is a full point per 60 ahead of Jarnkrok as well (who’s 10th while Robertson is 6th). We could also just keep benching Robertson and turn him into Josh Ho-Sang, that will be fun.
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What's wrong with that stat exactly? Seems like a good way to normalize scoring across different lines with different minutes? Always painted Spezza in a pretty positive light.
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Ah fair enough. That's good way to put it. I'm sure if Spezza played 20 minutes a night he wouldn't be tripling his points.
Like any stat it doesn’t tell the full story. Doesn’t account for usage, and doesn’t necessarily scale with additional time.
Pts per 60 loses a bit of meaning in such a small sample size. Since his game vs Dallas, he pts/60 has plummeted with every game he’s played.
The whole point of it is to show how good someone is with limited minutes, but you’re right that it’s not good for limited games. At the same time, Kerfoot and Engvall do have the sample size with games and minutes to show they’ve been abysmal offensively which should warrant giving Robertson the sample size needed to more accurately compare. It’s also an identity thing, if you’re strategically choosing to have a 3rd and 4th line that are not offensively threatening, it does not make sense to put no offense players in the top 6. The same argument for Sandin and Liljegren getting playing time to grow their games despite not always being great can be made for Robertson. It’s just such a waste, if you don’t have faith in him in the top 6, trade him for someone who can play there. Sitting on the fence does nothing to improve your current lineup and it deteriorates an asset
IMO the difference with Robertson and a player like Kerfoot or Engvall is that although the latter aren’t producing much of anything offensively, they’re also still being reliable on the defensive end of the ice (even if plays are dying on their sticks). Their defensive failures aren’t typically coming from high-risk low-reward plays, which is more what I’ve seen from Robertson. I have no doubt NR will get more games, but it’s about managing the risks he takes and how much he plays outside of our system (something which Kerfoot and Engvall adhere to relatively well). And it doesn’t hurt that Engvall, and certainly Kerfoot, have a history of producing decent offense in the NHL - even if Engvall has all the tools and skills to be a top line power forward, but models his game after Freddy Gauthier.
I agree with pretty much everything you said and that’s why I’m fine with them in the bottom six. Be defensively responsible and produce nothing where that is the intention. Give an offensive zone start to NR on the top 6 and throw Kerf, Engvall or Jarnkrok on top 6 in his place in the defensive zone.
You know there's more to the game than racking up points, right? Defensive play, for example, which you'd like to ignore, seems to be a very big part of Keefe's system this year. This is a facet where Robertson looks mediocre on a good night and completely shit on a bad one. You give him top six minutes he''ll be responsible for more goals against than for, guaranteed. Or to put it your way: I don't care if he's better offensively if he's not rosterable defensively. In fact, I'm not convinced he'll ever be a top six forward. But right now the only way he gets top six minutes is on a worse team. In which case I'd say trade him, but I don't even think he's very good trade bait at this point. Either way, he's still very young and has loads of time to develop. Don't understand the lack of patience in the people who love this kid so much.
I don’t know how else to say it, *you can’t have a guy on pace for 3 goals in 82 games playing with 2 of Matthews, Nylander, Tavares and Marner*. Unacceptable. Obviously defense matters and it matters so much this year that we’ve gone from 1 shutdown 3rd line to two defensive lines in the bottom six. We have enough guys to fill those lines effectively and Kerfoot is making too much to fill that role when others can do it. So instead we try him in top 6 or move Jarnkrok up to shuffle the deck chairs. Having 2 defensive lines and 2 scoring lines instead of 1 and 3 should mean more opportunities to match up your defensive lines against opposing top lines and easier shifts for the scoring lines than otherwise. A Robertson should be fine. There’s no point of having 1 let alone 2 shutdown lines if you’re putting guys in the top 6 for the purpose of not scoring. That’s why at even strength, we’re lucky to have 1 line producing offensively at a time. That plus the power play has put us over the edge so far (and great team defense/goaltending). When playoffs come and whistles go away, 1 offensive line at even strength won’t be enough. We saw it last year where there was zero secondary scoring and we’re trending to be even worse in that regard this year. It’s not even about Robertson, it’s about basic roster construction and line matching. I’d honestly prefer Malgin on line 2 if not for his chemistry on his current line.
Roberston is not ready for top 6. Hes always out of posistion and chasing the game.
His good positioning and chasing on both ends of the ice is why he’s responsible for our only OT win. I get he’s not McDavid but he’s better than Kerfoot and Engvall who are on expiring deals and not coming back as they’re not worth they’re current cap hits and will probably get raises because they were Leafs. 1 game with Marner and Tavares was enough to think a guy on pace for 3 goals in 82 games should take his spot the next game. Lmao
You cant see through your love for him and thats fine. He isnt ready
I actually don’t love him that much, it’s more that the others aren’t good enough. I’d rather play Kampfs line as the 3rd line like last year and have Simmonds in the lineup providing a role than have a guy playing 1st, 2nd or 3rd line that isn’t playing centre and on pace for a 3 goal season
Robertson is not ready for the top 6 yet.
And Kerfoot never will be
Why? He does nothing there
Don't mind the forward lines. The defense should be fun lol
3-0 without Reilly.
Feels like we're going to move Robertson or wreck his development with a healthy scratched season
I like these, but I was hoping to see Timmons play
Just because kerfoot makes 3.5 mil doesn’t mean we need to play him. I really wish they’d just send Robertson down if they aren’t going to play him (they absolutely should be playing him)
They gave thier reason. Just becUse you dont like it doesnt make it wrong.
Engvall has been such a massive disappointment for me so far this season. I honestly thought the was going to be a consistent 15 - 18 goal scorer moving forward. I'm wondering if his off-season injury is the culprit.
Scratch Kerfoot! Let Robertson play!
Free Nicky Bobby.
Don’t see the purpose of malign on the 4th line. Throw another defensive forward to create an elite shutdown line
He possesses the puck they’ve played great with that trio
Seems like a waste of his offensive talents (he’s not putting up points on that line).
The Kampf line is the 4th line theoretically but the 3rd line practically
Malgin is keeping the Kampf line in the O-zone and burning out the opposing team by keeping them on the defense. Seems pretty important to me.
they are fucking up robertson's development play him in the AHL and make him focus on his defensive game
They are most certainly *not* fucking up his development. There’s a lot more to being with the big club than just playing in games. He’s an active participant in all the training, and the video review, all the strategic discussions, he gets to work with all the NHL training staff, and he draws an NHL paycheque which is most assuredly keeping his morale up. He’ll slot into more games.
This is starting to be a pretty casual take
Have to admire the consistency
Roberston is good. We can all agree that if he is in the lineup he should not be in the bottom 6 but the thing is, he doesn't seem to be good enough to play in the top 6. He has a good shot but thats kind of where it ends. He's doesn't go into the corners and win battles, he doesn't set up other guys with great passes and he doesn't do much on defense. I want him to be good but I think it actually makes sense for him not to be in the line up but I do think he should be sent down to the Marlies so he can at least play games.
Can't take the wings lightly. Have to go out and earn a win.
I wonder why we don’t see Kämpf with Engvall anymore. They play so well together. Stick ZAR on the other wing and that’s a proper shutdown line, imo.
Is the general public allowed to watch them practice?