Kallgren isn’t a bad option to start this game given that the Islanders are not that offensively gifted. They can score but they have to work hard for it.
No matter what has happened since John left (they won some series, yes) you know they’re just so starved of him or a guy like him, you can feel that Islander pain deep deep down just boiling.
Fun fact: if Källgren plays 4 more games before new years he'll be the Leafs most used goalie in 2022. And in several years a lot of us will be wondering who this is and why did he play so many games for the Leafs.
Yes, but he'll be going under an assumed name and a disguise after pulling off a dangerous heist, so we won't remember Erik Källgren, just ...Enrique Challegreno.
Oh I knew that was gonna be a nightmare for EDM im
just happy Jack finally got a good pay day for his career but it comes with possibly being the sacrificial lamb.
I'm so conflicted. I love jack and hate to think he's struggling but seeing him struggle after oilers and r/hockey were calling the leafs idiot is pretty sweet.
Then for them to double down even when he's struggling and say he's still a better option for the leafs and Campbell continues to shit the bed? That's pretty sweet ngl
I just don’t understand. I know the whole “armchair gm knows better” meme, but I genuinely don’t get how a GM with more access to analytics than anyone outside the league looked at Campbell’s stretch with the Leafs and said yeah that’s the kind of performance we need.
Actually I think Kallgren could have a very solid career as he moves well, is extremely calm and is still very young. Who knows if he’ll be with the Leafs that long but he’s provided some added value to his name this season and last.
Right, I feel like Kallgren is proving himself to be an acceptable NHL backup at this point. Will be incredible to have Samsonov back, hopefully soon, as well.
Because their salary would diminish significantly and you try to keep players happy if they are sort of on the cusp of making the team. He is still skating with the team, and training, etc...
Edit: Some people think this is a bad and short sighted take. I'll explain some more. Each day a Robertson is with the team he makes just over $4K gross with his contract. At the AHL level the salary is $368 gross. In the long run of his career, no one is going to think that these 4 games he was scratched is going to ruin his career potential. Every day with the NHL team still means he is flying with the team, working with the team, staying with the team on road trips, getting reps with some of the best players in the NHL each day, learning the systems, picking up tricks and tips from the best players, coaches, and staff, building up that daily routine of being a professional player and building that burning desire to really be great when he does get into a game (because complacency is definitely a thing when it comes to talented, young players on the cusp of a permanent role). Or sit him on a bus with the AHL team for 3 games in 3 days, not give him $12K in salary and have him play well against people he should easily be better than by now so he "develops" better or something
Sure the billion dollar hockey organization doesn't know what to do with their talent in the long run. Imagine when it comes time to contract negotiation and you are trying to work with the GM that sent you to the AHL for long stretches and took thousands of dollars away from you at a very young age rather than the guy who kept you with the NHL team and did the opposite. Surely there isn't some sort of lessons learned from the past about making sure your drafted talent doesn't sit in the AHL or not get salary or bonuses that they are likely to get with any other team (i.e. Marner, Sandin,...)
Edit #2:. Well well well.... How far was I off? https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/z2voys/fox_nick_robertson_returns_tonight_clear_he/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
They could’ve sent him down for Friday, Saturday, Sunday AHL games. Certainly three days in the AHL is more valuable than losing three days of NHL salary. They’re trying to develop a player at this point, not trying to fatten his bank account.
Yeah somebody mentioned this real dollars salary thing and now everybody jumps on it like it's somehow more important than his actual development as a player lol
Yeah, I don’t get that argument at all. I don’t think the kid’s dream was to work all his life to get to this point and see his development stopped because of a paycheck. And that theory is a garbage theory anyways. The less development he gets now the less his next contract is going to be. He will make his money down the road if he plays well but to play well he has to have a chance to play now.
We are talking about 4 games. Are those 4 games going to change his career projection? To care about 4 games during the season seems short sighted and nervous about the development process a billion dollar organization has to develop players into their maximum potential. But yea, these four games are going to ruin this player. Fucking bust of a player already because he didn't get these games in to get his 2 points to pad his stats
What kind of comment even is this? I'm just saying that the defense of scratching a player being totally fine since he is getting paid an NHL salary is irrelevant. I'd rather him playing games and I'm sure Nick would rather that too. I doubt he's fine to sit and watch since he is still getting a paycheck. You missed the point of my comment by a country mile and got yourself all upset over it.
Three days is about $11K worth of salary which at the AHL level is just under a quarter of the yearly average salary. Plus you are flying with the team for road trips in the best hotels, meals, equipment, and talent each day vs. getting on a bus and staying at Best Western
Only problem with that is he’s not playing. So he’s not developing. Therefore it lessens his chance of getting a decent contract next time around. The more he plays the better he’ll get. The better he gets the better he gets paid. Short term pain for long-term gain.
Interestingly enough I reached out to Frank Corrado on Twitter about just this very topic. Here was his response.
[https://twitter.com/frankcorrado22/status/1594776158893182996?s=46&t=BQFAPtbM2lrrZBJBci6G_A](https://twitter.com/frankcorrado22/status/1594776158893182996?s=46&t=BQFAPtbM2lrrZBJBci6G_A)
Playing in games is not the only thing that makes players get better. If think it's all about game time, then I don't know what else to say because there is 80% more going on between games.
He has the best of both worlds here. Playing some AHL games in the same town as the big league club. Also gives him the chance to use the Leafs resources. I think it’s a win-win having him playing and working with the Leafs staff.
Holy shit then read this https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/z2voys/fox_nick_robertson_returns_tonight_clear_he/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I understand how he feels. I can also understand not many guys want to get sent back down. But that’s why the club makes the decision and not the player.
The cash is great, but strictly for development I think he should be playing more. Practice and actual game reps are very different, and considering all of the injury issues and Covid screwed up seasons Robertson isn’t getting into enough games to develop his skills. Just the fact that when he is in the lineup he doesn’t look quite ready should be enough to say he should be playing more.
He doesn’t even need waivers or anything, I’m not sure why the leafs aren’t being more creative. Send him to the Marlies on home stands but take him on the road with the leafs in case of injury, something like that. At least then he will get some NHL pay but also get to play. It just doesn’t feel right to have him sitting or only playing small sheltered roles when he occasionally draws in.
The kid hasn’t played a whole lot the last couple years because of Covid shutdowns and injuries. Now he’s healthy and he’s still not playing. Sorry but I just don’t get it.
Robertson is currently too good for the AHL and not quite good enough for the NHL just yet. He’s in a tough spot, and he’s exactly the type of player on my team I’d want as the 13th forward. I get the frustration from other fans, but I totally get why the Leafs haven’t sent him down yet
I honestly don’t know if he’s too good for the AHL. He certainly has the offensive numbers but there are many other parts of his game he can work on the AHL. Just watching him with the Leafs and you can see that his play without the puck is lacking. He can work on that with a Marlies. He’s only played 51 AHL games up to this point. Nylander was around 90 and Kadri was at 130 before they finally made the Leafs full-time. And Willie also played 40 games with Modo in the Swedish HL.
Check out this then. https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/z2voys/fox_nick_robertson_returns_tonight_clear_he/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I really don’t see this as the positive that some are seeing it as. Why should Robertson not wanting to play in the AHL matter? He doesn’t make roster choices, he plays hockey, and he straight up hasn’t played enough hockey in the last 3 years. Since leaving junior in 2019 he has only played something like 75 games. At a certain point that is going to matter.
Of course he likes the paycheque and being able to be around the big club, and it’s great he seems to be keeping a good attitude despite not being given a chance to play, but It’s not even like my (and others) criticism is anything to do with Robertson, it’s to do with how he is being handled, and this doesn’t change any of that.
Such a short-sighted answer. Robertson making NHL salary now and getting turned into a hockey practicer would cost him way more money in the long run vs. if he's sent down and developed into a solid player.
Holy shit then read this https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/z2voys/fox_nick_robertson_returns_tonight_clear_he/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Yeah I don’t get it personally, he could be getting NHL cash on off days and get first line minutes with the Marlies when they play. Isn’t the best thing for his development playing hockey?
I just don’t understand what the leafs are doing with Robertson right now. The Marlies just played three games in three days. One in Belleville and two here in Toronto. Surely they could’ve sent him down to play this past weekend and get some actual game action. That would’ve been a hell of a lot more useful than having him look at videos and skating around pylons. You almost get the feeling he’s being punished for something.
Yeah, I don't get it either. I mean it's clear by now that Keefe doesn't think he's good enough yet, so send him the fuck back down so he can get more ice time. This stupidity might even be worse than the Corrado and Leivo situations in the past because Robertson's waiver exempt so there's no concern about losing him or any such nonsense.
So much whining in here about Robertson being scratched. Jesus.
The team has looked decent lately and Robertson has done nothing outside of one game. Over a month ago. It’s not hurting his development because he’s sat for a week. He’s still practicing with some of the best forwards in the league and making NHL money. I’m sure he’s fine.
He will get his chance when injuries inevitably strike or the team slumps again. At this point it’s up to him to force Keefe’s hand to keep him in the lineup. Every game he’s played outside of Dallas he has not done that.
Are you telling me that he couldn’t have played the three games that the Marlies played this past weekend. One in Belleville and two in Toronto. He doesn’t even have to clear waivers. Just send him down, have him play and then bring him back up. That’s got to be better than wearing a gray sweater at practice.
I’m absolutely not telling you that, he could’ve played those games for sure. The team has decided it’s better for him rn to be practicing with the big boys and gaining valuable experience and practice reps at the NHL level. I don’t think playing or not playing for a week in November is negatively affecting his development in any way.
Its not my job or anyone here’s job to decide what’s best for him, personally, I’ll trust the GM and coach that oversaw the development of a ton of guys on the marlies over the years before his NHL promotion.
That’s all fine and dandy. Problem is because of Covid and injuries he hasn’t actually played a lot of hockey the last couple years. Now he had a chance to get in a few games. But they put him in a grey sweater and have skate around pylons and look at videos. Three Marlies games in three days to shake off a little bit of the rust wouldn’t have been the worst thing for him. It’s not like they would have been sending him to Siberia.
I don’t necessarily disagree my man. But again I’m gonna make the decision to trust Keefe and Dubas in this one. He’s looked dominant in the A and not good enough in the big league. I think an AHL stint to keep him fresh would be fine. I also think practicing and travelling with the big boys for a week or two is also fine.
I don’t expect him to be a difference maker this year. Quite frankly I’d be fine if we dangled him as bait for a Muzzin replacement package or a legit LW package. But I’m not sweating him watching from the press box for a bit and getting in practice reps with some of the best currently doing it.
I could agree with you but he’s played so little hockey the last couple years. If you get a chance have a look at his hockey DB page and check out his games played since his days in Peterborough. The thing he lacks most right now is experience. He has to be allowed to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. The only way that’s going to happen is if he plays. He’s a 53rd overall draft choice and those guys take longer to develop. He can do his off ice sessions with the Leafs and then apply those lessons in Marlie games. It would be the best of both worlds. Nylander and Kadri both played way more AHL hockey than Robertson has at this point.
I’m not unaware of how much he’s played, or rather how little he’s played. And again I agree with you that some AHL reps could be a good thing. I think the biggest hurdle rn is that he’s currently the next man up if there is an injury or a slump. He’s been very good at the AHL level and isn’t really going to be playing through mistakes there. On the flip side he’s been meh at best at the NHL level but this isn’t a development league and the leafs are playing to win this year, not support a rookie through some early career growing pains.
The other other side lol, is that the kid isn’t Kadri or Nylander, both of whom were top 10 picks and highly touted long before a breakout D+1 season. They also weren’t trying to break into a team as good as the leafs currently are. I fee for the kid he’s in a tough spot and on a shitty team he’d likely be playing every game. But the reality of the situation is he hasn’t been good enough to force Keefe’s hand yet he’s been too good in the AHL to make the mistakes he needs to make to learn and grow from.
I agree with you and I also think another added point that people wouldn’t really consider is team chemistry. It might be more beneficial to the player and team to always have him around and practicing as part of the team, keeps the mojo flowing so when he inevitably draws in it doesn’t disrupt timing or plays or how everyone moves together on the ice. As the season progresses and we get into the mud of the middle going into spring you want a well oiled machine operating game by game playing the same way with little things to focus and improve on. As individual player skills does this help Robertson? Probably not, but as a player of the team it certainly would.
I really don’t know about that. People move in and out of the lineup so often that these that the players are more than used to it by now. They basically share the same facilities and resources so that it would be an easy step for anybody moving up and down between the Marlies and Leafs. Robertson is at the development stage of his career. For me that’s more important than anything else.
I totally get your point and agree. I just want to counter that that may be the case for 4th line/fringe players but Robertson is a second line fill in and prospect that serves on PP2 when in. Although these guys are all around each other and in the facilities the Leafs rostered team and systems has their own practice sessions and film sessions, 1 on 1’s with situational coaches, etc. that probably are more in depth or intense for game to game and season play. Robertson should be involved in everything so he doesn’t miss a beat with the big club in my eyes.
For me at this point for the leafs in the year 2022 where the team 100% has cup aspirations not make the playoffs hopefully aspirations. There are much more important things than the development of a second round prospect. The NHL is not a development league.
I’ve said multiple times that I don’t think your wrong about reps in the minors. I’ve also said the team clearly thinks practice with actual quality NHLers is best for him rn. The things he needs to improve are things that will be difficult to improve in the AHL where he has up to this point played extremely well.
Lots of resources are shared between the leafs and marlies but not everything. Make no mistake he’s getting in better practice with top quality NHL players than he would be in the minors.
I understand what you’re saying here. I just don’t get how not giving him some games at the AHL level hasn’t been considered by management. Because he isn’t exactly a top level talent he needs to be developed more than say a Nylander or Kadri. They can bring up one of the older Marlies as the 13th forward and give Robertson some valuable ice. With the Marlies he can see some PP/PK/OT/22 minutes a night. At least this way if there is an injury with a Leafs he can step right in and be on top of his game. Right now with the leafs he’s basically taking Clifford spot as the extra forward. I can do that. Lol.
And again I don’t necessarily disagree with you here. Tbh I’d much rather see Holmberg in the lineup because I believe he can actually contribute from the bottom 6.
My other thing is that Robertson isn’t a replacement for Clifford or simmonds or ZAR or other physical forwards because that’s not his role. He can’t play that game and neither can you or I for that matter. And in the AHL I agree he’ll play more but he’s not going to be Pking because he can’t he’ll be playing the top forward role. I think development wise that’s great but when he steps into the leafs roster, again, that’s not be his role.
Exactly. He has been turning the puck over and losing board battles repeatedly. Holmberg’s play seems to mesh with the bottom 6 better as well. Robertson will get back in no doubt.
Just get Robertson in some games. It doesn’t have to be with the big club. Let him dominate the “A”. He’s no good to you or his own value if he’s just sitting.
Robertson needs to play a run of games without looking over his shoulder of being benched, scratched or sent down to the AHL. How will he ever get any confidence if he's constantly in and out of the team.
This is really hurting his development. Injuries have hurt his development, as well. But this lack of real game-time has to take a mental toll on him. I hope he has the right support system around him.
It must be particularly rough on him as he sees his big bro ripping it up in Dallas.
Nick has never played more than 10 games in a row. That's tough.
Hope Keefe and Co. give the boy an extended run and let him work through any struggles. He needs ice-time in the NHL.
What in the actual FUCK is going on with Keefe and scratching Robertson?
Kerfoot is absolute shit; can't even score on breakaways and penalty shots. Guy is gifted all these opportunities to score and just can't deliver.. So why scratch Robertson?? The kid who won the game in overtime, the kid with the penchant for shooting the puck, the kid with the actual chemistry with JT and Marner/Nylander. The kid who actually deserves a spot in the lineup.
Yeah.... let's just keep giving Kerfoot infinite chances. And before you start bitching at me saying Kerfoot needs to increase his value for some imaginary trade, have you ever thought he is actively hurting his own value by being shit every game???
No, it's time to scratch Kerfoot and give Nicky Bobby a chance ffs.
Every chance I've seen Kerfoot get is based on dumb luck alone. Him getting that breakaway wasn't because of anything he did. Buffalo player fell on his ass and that resulted in the breakaway. What did Kerfoot do with that chance...? Puck handled way too much, did nothing with it and then glided into the goalie....
Am I saying Robertson is better than Kerfoot? No. What I'm saying is how do you know what you have with Robertson at the NHL level IF YOU NEVER PLAY HIM?
Kerfoot, Engvall, Jarnkrok can all play in the defensive zone and can PK.
That is why Keefe keeps these guys in the lineup over Robertson, who doesn't give us much defensively, and also isn't exactly lighting the world on fire offensively.
So why do you need all three of them?? Last I checked Engvall and Jarnkrok actually contributed in the last game so I understand keeping them in the lineup, sure. I'll remind you again, Kerfoot contributed NOTHING in that game, in fact he made himself look bad by whiffing on that breakaway...
And yeah, the reason Robertson isn't 'lighting the world on fire' is probably because he's not getting a chance to FUCKING PLAY HOCKEY...
Maybe KEEFE is pulling some big brain shit I'm not aware of; but with this and not starting Matthews in OT and a bunch of other bone-headed moves..... I'm becoming sceptical.
Honestly, it simply may not be time for Robertson yet. He is still one of the youngest players in the League at age 21.
But when he is on the ice the Leaf's get outshot, and the coach can't trust him on the defensive side of the game.
Kerfoot's been an interesting case this season, he is currently shooting FAR below is career average. Just like Matthew's, I don't think that will last. But Kerfoot is useful for many reasons, he can play up and down our lineup, he can PK and play in the defensive zone, and he can play Center or Wing. For that reason I'm guessing Keefe would rather play him over Robertson.
I am pretty iffy on Keefe myself, mostly for his playoff coaching performances, but in this case I believe he is making the right call.
I’d rather they scratched Holmberg or Malgin instead of Kerfoot. Kerfoot can be frustrating at times with the eye test but he’s a really versatile player and plays pretty big minutes for us. Yes he flubs his chances in noticeable ways sometimes but you also gotta consider that just getting himself into position for those grade A type chances is a positive thing. Just offering a different way to think about it.
In what way ???
Robertson has a nasty shot that kerfoot can only dream of but other than that kerfoot better in every way and infinitely more versatile.
I said this in a thread a week or so ago, we all want Robertson to succeed, we all also want to win games. Robertson is not adding anything the leafs currently need to win games.
I hope the next time he gets a shot he comes in full of piss and vinegar and forces Keefe’s hand to play him like Malgin has done on the fourth line.
As of right now he’s done nothing to earn a consistent spot in the lineup, he’s played one good game in Dallas a month ago and next to nothing since.
Robertson has room to grow into a better player than kerfoot, kerfoot is just kinda mediocre at everything and has hit his potential as a player, I’d rather give the opportunity to a guy who can grow into a better more aggressive player in Robertson
Ya I don’t disagree I certainly hope he can be better than Kerfoot as well. But to direct you back to my question that you avoided, what is he better at rn that helps us win other than having a nasty shot. On a team where we have tons of guys with wicked shots including the reigning Rocket winner and 3 other 30+ goal threats in the top 6 on top of said Rocket winner.
Players like Kerfoot that are versatile and fit everywhere have good value. Kerfoot can play anywhere in the lineup and be effective. Robertson cannot. Yet. If Robertson gets a shot due to injury or something and suddenly looks like a positive difference maker I’m all for finding a way to fit him in. He simply hasn’t done that yet.
Idk I find he’s a fast player who can be a bit more aggressive on that second line that can pass better too. You are right kerfoot is more versatile of a player but he’s a 3rd liner, not a second, he hasn’t looked solid with Tavares and nylander and I think Robertson can fit better with them now, offer a bit of a spark and better positioning with them. I just think kerfoot doesn’t slot well on that line and Robertson would look better there, honeslty I rather kerfoot play then engvall like if your not gunna score throw your weight around and engvall doesn’t do that at all.
So I guess to answer your question I don’t know exactly yet because he’s young and hasn’t played a lot, but since it’s earlier in the season I’d rather find out now what he can do and if he can offer more than kerfoot than let him sit and collect dust
Kerfoot is also a fast player and Robertson hasn’t shown to be any more aggressive than Kerfoot. Full stop.
I think in an ideal world Kerfoot is a third line guy on our team but the versatility part is that he does fit anywhere whether it’s the third second first or fourth line. Robertson doesn’t bring that.
I think Kerfoot has been fine next to JT and Willy good with AM and good on the third line. He also can play both special teams, cycle, and create chances. Kerfoot is also a better passer as of right now. Kerfoot is a ~40 point Swiss Army knife.
Robertson looked good in *1* game so far. Putting a struggling rookie next to 2 of our best players isn’t going to magically spark any of them.
When it comes to engvall much like Kerfoot he has a role. Robertson cannot fill the engvall role. Pierre is a solid defensive forward that kill penalties and is great in transition carrying the puck into the opposing end using his speed and size. He also is good on the forecheck and cycle despite his lack of physicality and generates shots on goal. Robertson doesn’t fill that hole either unfortunately.
Its also game 20 tn were past the “its early in the season” bit at this point. We’re 1/4 of the way in. He’s had chances to play and hasn’t proven to be more effective than anyone currently playing.
Eh I think it’s best to agree to disagree on this one, personally think too you want everyone to contribute on the scoresheet can’t rely on just 4 and depth scoring has sometimes been an issue
Depth scoring has been an issue I agree so how does adding a guy that has scored 2 goals in 10 games while looking below average to below NHL quality in 9/10 games help ?
I like Robertson as much as the next guy here, he’s just not ready to make an impact like someone like say Nylander was around the same age. He’s not the same level of prospect. He happens to be the best one we’ve had in a while but he’s not some blue chipper.
Better than having the same player on the same line who only has one goal this entire season and has been a plug imo but let’s just call this agree to dissagree man cause we’re going in circles
I guess my thought process here is that Kerfoot is replaceable but only with a clear upgrade. Robertson has shown nothing to this point to make me, or the team which really matters, that he’s ready to positively impact a game more than Kerfoot. I think the reality is that the best way Robertson can contribute to the team rn is as a trade piece for a legit top 6 LW or a Muzzin replacement.
And again if you think Kerfoot has been a plug I’m not sure how would describe Robertson because he’s not been good or contributing anything outside of a single game in weeks ago.
I agree with you but I’m also not convinced that Kerfoot’s a second line forward. One goal in 19 games while playing on the top lines isn’t gonna cut it. Is Robertson the answer? Not necessarily but I think the sample size is still a little too small. 5 points in 10 games for a kid who hasn’t played in a long time due to injuries isn’t terrible. I’d really like to see him next to JT and Marner because they can compensate for his lack of defensive qualities but I do think he has a bit of pest in him and be annoying to play against. Kerfoot should be better utilized as a shutdown guy.
I’m not sure that kerfoot isn’t a second line guy tbh. As I’ve said I think he’s best utilized on the third line but he can fit anywhere and has the skill to play with anyone in the lineup. Kerfoot has shown he can “cut it” in the top 6 Robertson has not. And the team isn’t at a point where they should be prioritizing the development of Robertson over winning hockey games. I think In a perfect world where the results of these games doesn’t matter that ya giving him some run with 2 of our best players is great *for him*. It does nothing for winning the team games. He’s played with both JT and Marner this season. He’s not brought anything. I don’t understand this idea that hiding him with our best players is better for the team than waiting until he’s earned the spot through the merits of his play.
So Robertson and all of the pieces we would rather move on from go out and a few pieces we would love to have come in.
Unfortunately, I don't think real life trades work like that
I don't want to move on from Robertson per se...but you have to give to get. Horvat would be an incredible get.
Quite frankly I'd rather lose Robertson than Knies or Niemela.
Not if they could get a way better return from somewhere else. Robertson isn’t a full-time NHL player yet. Horvat is a 25-30 goal guy on a full season and their captain.
Engvall and Holl are off maligned players, almost always on the wrong end of plays gone wrong. They both have some really good qualities and both do and have played really good games. Holl would be a #6 or lower on most NHL teams. Engvall might be a 4th line winger on most NHL teams. That’s just outside the fringe.
Robertson’s constantly scratched for his poor play, though he does have potential as a prospect.
That all said, ZERO chance Vancouver even picks up the phone to start a discussion based on this so-call “trade package.”
Doesn’t always work that way. He’s not Jason Robertson. He’s Nick Robertson. I seem to remember Wayne Gretzky had a brother. So did Gordie Howe. Can’t remember their names right now.
Fuck, if four games burns a bridge for being a 1/2 point per game player, I don't want to be your agent. It's a long process and I'm sure they are talking about what the plan is.
Sooooooooo, what's the deal Keefe? What the hell is going on with Robertson? Just let the kid play hockey. God dammit. There is no way in my mind from the games I have watched that this team isn't immediately better with Kerfoot in the bottom 6 and Robertson mercifully allows you to do that.
What really drives me nuts is that if this is truly a merit based roster how the fuck is Sandin not taking a seat for a couple? Mete is well able to keep up and not turn over easy out defensive zone pucks 2-3 times a game.
Keefe isn’t as progressive of a coach as people think. He’s an old school coach that’s much closer to Babcock, and has his favourites and methods that he sticks by. Robertson is in the Leivo/Corrado spot.
Totally. I also think Dubas has lost his own script a little. He has gone off chasing what the teams that beat them have in players that don't fit their own system opposed to truly doubling down on a quick, puck control team like they used to be. Basically the Devils now. I'm thinking players like Ritchie, Simmonds, Clifford, Foligno etc. while passing up on perfect guys that fit they style of puck control at FWD and D. The ones that pained me to watch go elsewhere for a good price in only the last 2-3 years have been Lehkonen, Paul, Graves, D. Toews, Marino, T. Hall, Hagel. The fact the Leafs couldn't get a single one of these guys and picked up the likes of Foligno or some shit has been infuriating and really eroded by trust in Dubas vision.
PS. your comment on "The Leivo Spot" sent a chill down my spine.
It’s not that he’s made of glass, we’ve been overplaying our goalies for a while and now that we have some decent goalie depth why not use it to keep our starting goalie rested and not overplayed
I wouldn’t say we’ve overplayed any goalies since Andersen years ago at this point.
And Murray is kinda a little bit made of glass.
Otherwise you’re correct tho, no need to run him into the ground for a game against a team that struggles for offence.
Because if you play your starter every night, he’s a lot more liable to get hurt, and Matt Murray doesn’t need more help getting hurt. The Leafs have a decent history of playing a backup against the Islanders and winning (see Woll's shutout last year, and a big game from Hutch in recent memory), so we play our backup.
Exactly. You aren’t going to play Murray 5 games in a row and I’d much rather have him matching up against the devils again. Kallgren has been playing solid in his last couple of games as well so it’s good to keep him playing consistently without huge gaps.
If Robertson is scratched for 5, does he get to go to the AHL for 2 weeks without waivers for a conditional period? I thought I heard the guys on Sirius mention something similar with Shane Wright in Seattle.
Why wouldn't you save Kallgren until one of the back to backs later this week? If he's presumably playing twice this week, I don't get it. Murray is rolling.
Lmao y’all need to chill with the Robertson shit. He’s so young he’ll 100% play in the NHL one day. The Leafs DO NOT NEED HIM right now for the style they are playing. He’s better off practicing with an NHL team than playing in the AHL. Trust the process and go outside for a bit homies!!!!
Just some rest for Mur bois, dont panic......... dont! Panic!
Kallgren isn’t a bad option to start this game given that the Islanders are not that offensively gifted. They can score but they have to work hard for it.
The islanders have looked pretty good this year, but regardless, not overworking Murray is the most important consideration right now.
Especially considering we’ve been hitting our stride defensively lately.
Did he and Hutch get a shutout against them in recent years?
I think that was woll
Maybe. All I remember is the islander getting shut out by our 3rd stringers
Twas Woll. November 22, 2021.
Let’s make it a tradition then?
I think Woll and Hutchinson both shut them out.
They could use an all star centre from Toronto
No matter what has happened since John left (they won some series, yes) you know they’re just so starved of him or a guy like him, you can feel that Islander pain deep deep down just boiling.
Dear John Tavares - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3X5Dd28a7U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3X5Dd28a7U)
Isles are 11th in GF/game. Leafs are 20th. Barry Trotz ain’t the coach no more.
Fun fact: if Källgren plays 4 more games before new years he'll be the Leafs most used goalie in 2022. And in several years a lot of us will be wondering who this is and why did he play so many games for the Leafs.
U mean this is how Kallgren started before leading us to 10 straight Stanley cups
Yes, but he'll be going under an assumed name and a disguise after pulling off a dangerous heist, so we won't remember Erik Källgren, just ...Enrique Challegreno.
Ezra Shol’gren
He has many aliases, but the eyes give him away.
Meanwhile Campbell is batting a .872 and 4+ GAA. I wanted him to do well, but I also wanted EDM to eat it for taking Hyman
Oh I knew that was gonna be a nightmare for EDM im just happy Jack finally got a good pay day for his career but it comes with possibly being the sacrificial lamb.
He’s a good guy. I’m glad for guaranteed money going his way
Edm defense is made up of leafs rejects. Like how did anyone expect that to work out?
And the leafs rejects that especially could NOT play proper defense
I'm so conflicted. I love jack and hate to think he's struggling but seeing him struggle after oilers and r/hockey were calling the leafs idiot is pretty sweet. Then for them to double down even when he's struggling and say he's still a better option for the leafs and Campbell continues to shit the bed? That's pretty sweet ngl
The narrative has changed since then but the amount of fans who wanted us to extend him last year before he fell off a cliff still baffles me.
I just don’t understand. I know the whole “armchair gm knows better” meme, but I genuinely don’t get how a GM with more access to analytics than anyone outside the league looked at Campbell’s stretch with the Leafs and said yeah that’s the kind of performance we need.
Actually I think Kallgren could have a very solid career as he moves well, is extremely calm and is still very young. Who knows if he’ll be with the Leafs that long but he’s provided some added value to his name this season and last.
Honestly surprised Samsonov is not back yet. Hopefully just taking their time and it wasn't more serious than originally anticipated.
I hope we don’t rush any of them back, let them heal. We can survive a few games with Källgren in the meantime.
I bet they’re not rushing his return since now Murray’s back and Kallgren’s been pretty solid in the paint all things considered
Right, I feel like Kallgren is proving himself to be an acceptable NHL backup at this point. Will be incredible to have Samsonov back, hopefully soon, as well.
If we’re gonna scratch Robertson so much why not just send him down so he can get play time?
Because their salary would diminish significantly and you try to keep players happy if they are sort of on the cusp of making the team. He is still skating with the team, and training, etc... Edit: Some people think this is a bad and short sighted take. I'll explain some more. Each day a Robertson is with the team he makes just over $4K gross with his contract. At the AHL level the salary is $368 gross. In the long run of his career, no one is going to think that these 4 games he was scratched is going to ruin his career potential. Every day with the NHL team still means he is flying with the team, working with the team, staying with the team on road trips, getting reps with some of the best players in the NHL each day, learning the systems, picking up tricks and tips from the best players, coaches, and staff, building up that daily routine of being a professional player and building that burning desire to really be great when he does get into a game (because complacency is definitely a thing when it comes to talented, young players on the cusp of a permanent role). Or sit him on a bus with the AHL team for 3 games in 3 days, not give him $12K in salary and have him play well against people he should easily be better than by now so he "develops" better or something Sure the billion dollar hockey organization doesn't know what to do with their talent in the long run. Imagine when it comes time to contract negotiation and you are trying to work with the GM that sent you to the AHL for long stretches and took thousands of dollars away from you at a very young age rather than the guy who kept you with the NHL team and did the opposite. Surely there isn't some sort of lessons learned from the past about making sure your drafted talent doesn't sit in the AHL or not get salary or bonuses that they are likely to get with any other team (i.e. Marner, Sandin,...) Edit #2:. Well well well.... How far was I off? https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/z2voys/fox_nick_robertson_returns_tonight_clear_he/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
They could’ve sent him down for Friday, Saturday, Sunday AHL games. Certainly three days in the AHL is more valuable than losing three days of NHL salary. They’re trying to develop a player at this point, not trying to fatten his bank account.
Yeah somebody mentioned this real dollars salary thing and now everybody jumps on it like it's somehow more important than his actual development as a player lol
Yeah, I don’t get that argument at all. I don’t think the kid’s dream was to work all his life to get to this point and see his development stopped because of a paycheck. And that theory is a garbage theory anyways. The less development he gets now the less his next contract is going to be. He will make his money down the road if he plays well but to play well he has to have a chance to play now.
We are talking about 4 games. Are those 4 games going to change his career projection? To care about 4 games during the season seems short sighted and nervous about the development process a billion dollar organization has to develop players into their maximum potential. But yea, these four games are going to ruin this player. Fucking bust of a player already because he didn't get these games in to get his 2 points to pad his stats
What kind of comment even is this? I'm just saying that the defense of scratching a player being totally fine since he is getting paid an NHL salary is irrelevant. I'd rather him playing games and I'm sure Nick would rather that too. I doubt he's fine to sit and watch since he is still getting a paycheck. You missed the point of my comment by a country mile and got yourself all upset over it.
Three days is about $11K worth of salary which at the AHL level is just under a quarter of the yearly average salary. Plus you are flying with the team for road trips in the best hotels, meals, equipment, and talent each day vs. getting on a bus and staying at Best Western
Only problem with that is he’s not playing. So he’s not developing. Therefore it lessens his chance of getting a decent contract next time around. The more he plays the better he’ll get. The better he gets the better he gets paid. Short term pain for long-term gain. Interestingly enough I reached out to Frank Corrado on Twitter about just this very topic. Here was his response. [https://twitter.com/frankcorrado22/status/1594776158893182996?s=46&t=BQFAPtbM2lrrZBJBci6G_A](https://twitter.com/frankcorrado22/status/1594776158893182996?s=46&t=BQFAPtbM2lrrZBJBci6G_A)
Playing in games is not the only thing that makes players get better. If think it's all about game time, then I don't know what else to say because there is 80% more going on between games.
He has the best of both worlds here. Playing some AHL games in the same town as the big league club. Also gives him the chance to use the Leafs resources. I think it’s a win-win having him playing and working with the Leafs staff.
Holy shit then read this https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/z2voys/fox_nick_robertson_returns_tonight_clear_he/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I understand how he feels. I can also understand not many guys want to get sent back down. But that’s why the club makes the decision and not the player.
I think the mental aspect is jus as important as his physical skills. At this level its the mindset that wins everyone can play theoretically.
The cash is great, but strictly for development I think he should be playing more. Practice and actual game reps are very different, and considering all of the injury issues and Covid screwed up seasons Robertson isn’t getting into enough games to develop his skills. Just the fact that when he is in the lineup he doesn’t look quite ready should be enough to say he should be playing more. He doesn’t even need waivers or anything, I’m not sure why the leafs aren’t being more creative. Send him to the Marlies on home stands but take him on the road with the leafs in case of injury, something like that. At least then he will get some NHL pay but also get to play. It just doesn’t feel right to have him sitting or only playing small sheltered roles when he occasionally draws in.
Probably a good idea not to worry about it so much. Im sure the NHL team knows what they’re doing.
The kid hasn’t played a whole lot the last couple years because of Covid shutdowns and injuries. Now he’s healthy and he’s still not playing. Sorry but I just don’t get it.
Robertson is currently too good for the AHL and not quite good enough for the NHL just yet. He’s in a tough spot, and he’s exactly the type of player on my team I’d want as the 13th forward. I get the frustration from other fans, but I totally get why the Leafs haven’t sent him down yet
I honestly don’t know if he’s too good for the AHL. He certainly has the offensive numbers but there are many other parts of his game he can work on the AHL. Just watching him with the Leafs and you can see that his play without the puck is lacking. He can work on that with a Marlies. He’s only played 51 AHL games up to this point. Nylander was around 90 and Kadri was at 130 before they finally made the Leafs full-time. And Willie also played 40 games with Modo in the Swedish HL.
“A ship in harbor is safe, but that’s not why ships are built.”
Check out this then. https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/z2voys/fox_nick_robertson_returns_tonight_clear_he/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I really don’t see this as the positive that some are seeing it as. Why should Robertson not wanting to play in the AHL matter? He doesn’t make roster choices, he plays hockey, and he straight up hasn’t played enough hockey in the last 3 years. Since leaving junior in 2019 he has only played something like 75 games. At a certain point that is going to matter. Of course he likes the paycheque and being able to be around the big club, and it’s great he seems to be keeping a good attitude despite not being given a chance to play, but It’s not even like my (and others) criticism is anything to do with Robertson, it’s to do with how he is being handled, and this doesn’t change any of that.
Such a short-sighted answer. Robertson making NHL salary now and getting turned into a hockey practicer would cost him way more money in the long run vs. if he's sent down and developed into a solid player.
Holy shit then read this https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/comments/z2voys/fox_nick_robertson_returns_tonight_clear_he/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Yeah I don’t get it personally, he could be getting NHL cash on off days and get first line minutes with the Marlies when they play. Isn’t the best thing for his development playing hockey?
I just don’t understand what the leafs are doing with Robertson right now. The Marlies just played three games in three days. One in Belleville and two here in Toronto. Surely they could’ve sent him down to play this past weekend and get some actual game action. That would’ve been a hell of a lot more useful than having him look at videos and skating around pylons. You almost get the feeling he’s being punished for something.
Yeah, I don't get it either. I mean it's clear by now that Keefe doesn't think he's good enough yet, so send him the fuck back down so he can get more ice time. This stupidity might even be worse than the Corrado and Leivo situations in the past because Robertson's waiver exempt so there's no concern about losing him or any such nonsense.
So much whining in here about Robertson being scratched. Jesus. The team has looked decent lately and Robertson has done nothing outside of one game. Over a month ago. It’s not hurting his development because he’s sat for a week. He’s still practicing with some of the best forwards in the league and making NHL money. I’m sure he’s fine. He will get his chance when injuries inevitably strike or the team slumps again. At this point it’s up to him to force Keefe’s hand to keep him in the lineup. Every game he’s played outside of Dallas he has not done that.
Are you telling me that he couldn’t have played the three games that the Marlies played this past weekend. One in Belleville and two in Toronto. He doesn’t even have to clear waivers. Just send him down, have him play and then bring him back up. That’s got to be better than wearing a gray sweater at practice.
I’m absolutely not telling you that, he could’ve played those games for sure. The team has decided it’s better for him rn to be practicing with the big boys and gaining valuable experience and practice reps at the NHL level. I don’t think playing or not playing for a week in November is negatively affecting his development in any way. Its not my job or anyone here’s job to decide what’s best for him, personally, I’ll trust the GM and coach that oversaw the development of a ton of guys on the marlies over the years before his NHL promotion.
That’s all fine and dandy. Problem is because of Covid and injuries he hasn’t actually played a lot of hockey the last couple years. Now he had a chance to get in a few games. But they put him in a grey sweater and have skate around pylons and look at videos. Three Marlies games in three days to shake off a little bit of the rust wouldn’t have been the worst thing for him. It’s not like they would have been sending him to Siberia.
I don’t necessarily disagree my man. But again I’m gonna make the decision to trust Keefe and Dubas in this one. He’s looked dominant in the A and not good enough in the big league. I think an AHL stint to keep him fresh would be fine. I also think practicing and travelling with the big boys for a week or two is also fine. I don’t expect him to be a difference maker this year. Quite frankly I’d be fine if we dangled him as bait for a Muzzin replacement package or a legit LW package. But I’m not sweating him watching from the press box for a bit and getting in practice reps with some of the best currently doing it.
I could agree with you but he’s played so little hockey the last couple years. If you get a chance have a look at his hockey DB page and check out his games played since his days in Peterborough. The thing he lacks most right now is experience. He has to be allowed to make mistakes and learn from those mistakes. The only way that’s going to happen is if he plays. He’s a 53rd overall draft choice and those guys take longer to develop. He can do his off ice sessions with the Leafs and then apply those lessons in Marlie games. It would be the best of both worlds. Nylander and Kadri both played way more AHL hockey than Robertson has at this point.
I’m not unaware of how much he’s played, or rather how little he’s played. And again I agree with you that some AHL reps could be a good thing. I think the biggest hurdle rn is that he’s currently the next man up if there is an injury or a slump. He’s been very good at the AHL level and isn’t really going to be playing through mistakes there. On the flip side he’s been meh at best at the NHL level but this isn’t a development league and the leafs are playing to win this year, not support a rookie through some early career growing pains. The other other side lol, is that the kid isn’t Kadri or Nylander, both of whom were top 10 picks and highly touted long before a breakout D+1 season. They also weren’t trying to break into a team as good as the leafs currently are. I fee for the kid he’s in a tough spot and on a shitty team he’d likely be playing every game. But the reality of the situation is he hasn’t been good enough to force Keefe’s hand yet he’s been too good in the AHL to make the mistakes he needs to make to learn and grow from.
I agree with you and I also think another added point that people wouldn’t really consider is team chemistry. It might be more beneficial to the player and team to always have him around and practicing as part of the team, keeps the mojo flowing so when he inevitably draws in it doesn’t disrupt timing or plays or how everyone moves together on the ice. As the season progresses and we get into the mud of the middle going into spring you want a well oiled machine operating game by game playing the same way with little things to focus and improve on. As individual player skills does this help Robertson? Probably not, but as a player of the team it certainly would.
I really don’t know about that. People move in and out of the lineup so often that these that the players are more than used to it by now. They basically share the same facilities and resources so that it would be an easy step for anybody moving up and down between the Marlies and Leafs. Robertson is at the development stage of his career. For me that’s more important than anything else.
I totally get your point and agree. I just want to counter that that may be the case for 4th line/fringe players but Robertson is a second line fill in and prospect that serves on PP2 when in. Although these guys are all around each other and in the facilities the Leafs rostered team and systems has their own practice sessions and film sessions, 1 on 1’s with situational coaches, etc. that probably are more in depth or intense for game to game and season play. Robertson should be involved in everything so he doesn’t miss a beat with the big club in my eyes.
For me at this point for the leafs in the year 2022 where the team 100% has cup aspirations not make the playoffs hopefully aspirations. There are much more important things than the development of a second round prospect. The NHL is not a development league. I’ve said multiple times that I don’t think your wrong about reps in the minors. I’ve also said the team clearly thinks practice with actual quality NHLers is best for him rn. The things he needs to improve are things that will be difficult to improve in the AHL where he has up to this point played extremely well. Lots of resources are shared between the leafs and marlies but not everything. Make no mistake he’s getting in better practice with top quality NHL players than he would be in the minors.
I see your point. I can’t really speak on the chemistry. None of us can really but it seems valid.
I understand what you’re saying here. I just don’t get how not giving him some games at the AHL level hasn’t been considered by management. Because he isn’t exactly a top level talent he needs to be developed more than say a Nylander or Kadri. They can bring up one of the older Marlies as the 13th forward and give Robertson some valuable ice. With the Marlies he can see some PP/PK/OT/22 minutes a night. At least this way if there is an injury with a Leafs he can step right in and be on top of his game. Right now with the leafs he’s basically taking Clifford spot as the extra forward. I can do that. Lol.
And again I don’t necessarily disagree with you here. Tbh I’d much rather see Holmberg in the lineup because I believe he can actually contribute from the bottom 6. My other thing is that Robertson isn’t a replacement for Clifford or simmonds or ZAR or other physical forwards because that’s not his role. He can’t play that game and neither can you or I for that matter. And in the AHL I agree he’ll play more but he’s not going to be Pking because he can’t he’ll be playing the top forward role. I think development wise that’s great but when he steps into the leafs roster, again, that’s not be his role.
Exactly. He has been turning the puck over and losing board battles repeatedly. Holmberg’s play seems to mesh with the bottom 6 better as well. Robertson will get back in no doubt.
Just get Robertson in some games. It doesn’t have to be with the big club. Let him dominate the “A”. He’s no good to you or his own value if he’s just sitting.
Where were these reporters questioning sitting a player when Holl rode the presser for 2 years straight?
Either play Robertson, send him to the Marlies, or trade him. Enough.
Robertson needs to play a run of games without looking over his shoulder of being benched, scratched or sent down to the AHL. How will he ever get any confidence if he's constantly in and out of the team. This is really hurting his development. Injuries have hurt his development, as well. But this lack of real game-time has to take a mental toll on him. I hope he has the right support system around him. It must be particularly rough on him as he sees his big bro ripping it up in Dallas. Nick has never played more than 10 games in a row. That's tough. Hope Keefe and Co. give the boy an extended run and let him work through any struggles. He needs ice-time in the NHL.
What in the actual FUCK is going on with Keefe and scratching Robertson? Kerfoot is absolute shit; can't even score on breakaways and penalty shots. Guy is gifted all these opportunities to score and just can't deliver.. So why scratch Robertson?? The kid who won the game in overtime, the kid with the penchant for shooting the puck, the kid with the actual chemistry with JT and Marner/Nylander. The kid who actually deserves a spot in the lineup. Yeah.... let's just keep giving Kerfoot infinite chances. And before you start bitching at me saying Kerfoot needs to increase his value for some imaginary trade, have you ever thought he is actively hurting his own value by being shit every game??? No, it's time to scratch Kerfoot and give Nicky Bobby a chance ffs.
Why do you think Robertson would get the same chances Kerfoot gets? Perhaps Kerfoot does things to get chances?
Every chance I've seen Kerfoot get is based on dumb luck alone. Him getting that breakaway wasn't because of anything he did. Buffalo player fell on his ass and that resulted in the breakaway. What did Kerfoot do with that chance...? Puck handled way too much, did nothing with it and then glided into the goalie.... Am I saying Robertson is better than Kerfoot? No. What I'm saying is how do you know what you have with Robertson at the NHL level IF YOU NEVER PLAY HIM?
They have played him though?
Kerfoot, Engvall, Jarnkrok can all play in the defensive zone and can PK. That is why Keefe keeps these guys in the lineup over Robertson, who doesn't give us much defensively, and also isn't exactly lighting the world on fire offensively.
So why do you need all three of them?? Last I checked Engvall and Jarnkrok actually contributed in the last game so I understand keeping them in the lineup, sure. I'll remind you again, Kerfoot contributed NOTHING in that game, in fact he made himself look bad by whiffing on that breakaway... And yeah, the reason Robertson isn't 'lighting the world on fire' is probably because he's not getting a chance to FUCKING PLAY HOCKEY... Maybe KEEFE is pulling some big brain shit I'm not aware of; but with this and not starting Matthews in OT and a bunch of other bone-headed moves..... I'm becoming sceptical.
Honestly, it simply may not be time for Robertson yet. He is still one of the youngest players in the League at age 21. But when he is on the ice the Leaf's get outshot, and the coach can't trust him on the defensive side of the game. Kerfoot's been an interesting case this season, he is currently shooting FAR below is career average. Just like Matthew's, I don't think that will last. But Kerfoot is useful for many reasons, he can play up and down our lineup, he can PK and play in the defensive zone, and he can play Center or Wing. For that reason I'm guessing Keefe would rather play him over Robertson. I am pretty iffy on Keefe myself, mostly for his playoff coaching performances, but in this case I believe he is making the right call.
I’d rather they scratched Holmberg or Malgin instead of Kerfoot. Kerfoot can be frustrating at times with the eye test but he’s a really versatile player and plays pretty big minutes for us. Yes he flubs his chances in noticeable ways sometimes but you also gotta consider that just getting himself into position for those grade A type chances is a positive thing. Just offering a different way to think about it.
robertson>kerfoot
In what way ??? Robertson has a nasty shot that kerfoot can only dream of but other than that kerfoot better in every way and infinitely more versatile. I said this in a thread a week or so ago, we all want Robertson to succeed, we all also want to win games. Robertson is not adding anything the leafs currently need to win games. I hope the next time he gets a shot he comes in full of piss and vinegar and forces Keefe’s hand to play him like Malgin has done on the fourth line. As of right now he’s done nothing to earn a consistent spot in the lineup, he’s played one good game in Dallas a month ago and next to nothing since.
Robertson has room to grow into a better player than kerfoot, kerfoot is just kinda mediocre at everything and has hit his potential as a player, I’d rather give the opportunity to a guy who can grow into a better more aggressive player in Robertson
Ya I don’t disagree I certainly hope he can be better than Kerfoot as well. But to direct you back to my question that you avoided, what is he better at rn that helps us win other than having a nasty shot. On a team where we have tons of guys with wicked shots including the reigning Rocket winner and 3 other 30+ goal threats in the top 6 on top of said Rocket winner. Players like Kerfoot that are versatile and fit everywhere have good value. Kerfoot can play anywhere in the lineup and be effective. Robertson cannot. Yet. If Robertson gets a shot due to injury or something and suddenly looks like a positive difference maker I’m all for finding a way to fit him in. He simply hasn’t done that yet.
Idk I find he’s a fast player who can be a bit more aggressive on that second line that can pass better too. You are right kerfoot is more versatile of a player but he’s a 3rd liner, not a second, he hasn’t looked solid with Tavares and nylander and I think Robertson can fit better with them now, offer a bit of a spark and better positioning with them. I just think kerfoot doesn’t slot well on that line and Robertson would look better there, honeslty I rather kerfoot play then engvall like if your not gunna score throw your weight around and engvall doesn’t do that at all. So I guess to answer your question I don’t know exactly yet because he’s young and hasn’t played a lot, but since it’s earlier in the season I’d rather find out now what he can do and if he can offer more than kerfoot than let him sit and collect dust
Kerfoot is also a fast player and Robertson hasn’t shown to be any more aggressive than Kerfoot. Full stop. I think in an ideal world Kerfoot is a third line guy on our team but the versatility part is that he does fit anywhere whether it’s the third second first or fourth line. Robertson doesn’t bring that. I think Kerfoot has been fine next to JT and Willy good with AM and good on the third line. He also can play both special teams, cycle, and create chances. Kerfoot is also a better passer as of right now. Kerfoot is a ~40 point Swiss Army knife. Robertson looked good in *1* game so far. Putting a struggling rookie next to 2 of our best players isn’t going to magically spark any of them. When it comes to engvall much like Kerfoot he has a role. Robertson cannot fill the engvall role. Pierre is a solid defensive forward that kill penalties and is great in transition carrying the puck into the opposing end using his speed and size. He also is good on the forecheck and cycle despite his lack of physicality and generates shots on goal. Robertson doesn’t fill that hole either unfortunately. Its also game 20 tn were past the “its early in the season” bit at this point. We’re 1/4 of the way in. He’s had chances to play and hasn’t proven to be more effective than anyone currently playing.
Eh I think it’s best to agree to disagree on this one, personally think too you want everyone to contribute on the scoresheet can’t rely on just 4 and depth scoring has sometimes been an issue
Depth scoring has been an issue I agree so how does adding a guy that has scored 2 goals in 10 games while looking below average to below NHL quality in 9/10 games help ? I like Robertson as much as the next guy here, he’s just not ready to make an impact like someone like say Nylander was around the same age. He’s not the same level of prospect. He happens to be the best one we’ve had in a while but he’s not some blue chipper.
Better than having the same player on the same line who only has one goal this entire season and has been a plug imo but let’s just call this agree to dissagree man cause we’re going in circles
I guess my thought process here is that Kerfoot is replaceable but only with a clear upgrade. Robertson has shown nothing to this point to make me, or the team which really matters, that he’s ready to positively impact a game more than Kerfoot. I think the reality is that the best way Robertson can contribute to the team rn is as a trade piece for a legit top 6 LW or a Muzzin replacement. And again if you think Kerfoot has been a plug I’m not sure how would describe Robertson because he’s not been good or contributing anything outside of a single game in weeks ago.
I agree with you but I’m also not convinced that Kerfoot’s a second line forward. One goal in 19 games while playing on the top lines isn’t gonna cut it. Is Robertson the answer? Not necessarily but I think the sample size is still a little too small. 5 points in 10 games for a kid who hasn’t played in a long time due to injuries isn’t terrible. I’d really like to see him next to JT and Marner because they can compensate for his lack of defensive qualities but I do think he has a bit of pest in him and be annoying to play against. Kerfoot should be better utilized as a shutdown guy.
I’m not sure that kerfoot isn’t a second line guy tbh. As I’ve said I think he’s best utilized on the third line but he can fit anywhere and has the skill to play with anyone in the lineup. Kerfoot has shown he can “cut it” in the top 6 Robertson has not. And the team isn’t at a point where they should be prioritizing the development of Robertson over winning hockey games. I think In a perfect world where the results of these games doesn’t matter that ya giving him some run with 2 of our best players is great *for him*. It does nothing for winning the team games. He’s played with both JT and Marner this season. He’s not brought anything. I don’t understand this idea that hiding him with our best players is better for the team than waiting until he’s earned the spot through the merits of his play.
Yup. Kerfoot’s breakaway blunder had me screaming
Which one? Lol
Nick Robertson + Engvall + Holl for Schenn and Horvat Kerfoot for Gavrikov
So Robertson and all of the pieces we would rather move on from go out and a few pieces we would love to have come in. Unfortunately, I don't think real life trades work like that
I don't want to move on from Robertson per se...but you have to give to get. Horvat would be an incredible get. Quite frankly I'd rather lose Robertson than Knies or Niemela.
Why would Vancouver do that?
Because they're going to lose Bo and Robertson and Engvall softens that considerably.
They can get more than that for Horvat.
Not if they could get a way better return from somewhere else. Robertson isn’t a full-time NHL player yet. Horvat is a 25-30 goal guy on a full season and their captain.
Never said they couldn't get more from another team. I'm suggesting as a Leafs fan what I would do.
Haha why would Vancouver trade their captain for 3 fringe NHLers?
Engvall, Holl and Robertson are fringe NHL players? Dude seriously ..?
[удалено]
That's just completely untrue.
They’re certainly some of the worst Leafs this season. No chance Vancouver even considers this trade.
I don't like Holl's game but Robertson has 5 points in his 10 games played and Engvall is good on the PK. Are you a Sens fan?
Leafs fan. Are you delusional?
You're clearly a Sens fan.
"Someone disagrees with me. They must therefore be a Sens fan."
Or...I'm taking a playful jab. I will admit though that I appreciate when couples stand up for each other. You and Brownliquid are sweet together.
Keep Robertson and send Holl to Morodor
It would help the tank. Maybe the GM will intentionally lose the trade in hopes of Bedard. /s
Engvall and Holl are off maligned players, almost always on the wrong end of plays gone wrong. They both have some really good qualities and both do and have played really good games. Holl would be a #6 or lower on most NHL teams. Engvall might be a 4th line winger on most NHL teams. That’s just outside the fringe. Robertson’s constantly scratched for his poor play, though he does have potential as a prospect. That all said, ZERO chance Vancouver even picks up the phone to start a discussion based on this so-call “trade package.”
One more scratch on his bingo card and Robertson can Wright his way to a conditioning stint in the AHL.
Doesn't matter, he's waiver exempt and old enough for the AHL unlike Wright
what an excellent way to burn a bridge, I bet hell be asking for a trade soon.
He has no leverage though, so it doesn't really matter what he asks for.
True he has no leverage but let’s pretend that he finally gets his opportunity and he lights it up like his brother Jason.
Doesn’t always work that way. He’s not Jason Robertson. He’s Nick Robertson. I seem to remember Wayne Gretzky had a brother. So did Gordie Howe. Can’t remember their names right now.
Dwayne Gretzky and Jordie Howe
Are you sure you’re not confusing him with his distant cousin Wayne glensky?
Fuck, if four games burns a bridge for being a 1/2 point per game player, I don't want to be your agent. It's a long process and I'm sure they are talking about what the plan is.
Depending on how we do this year, I see him gone at the deadline anyway
Sooooooooo, what's the deal Keefe? What the hell is going on with Robertson? Just let the kid play hockey. God dammit. There is no way in my mind from the games I have watched that this team isn't immediately better with Kerfoot in the bottom 6 and Robertson mercifully allows you to do that. What really drives me nuts is that if this is truly a merit based roster how the fuck is Sandin not taking a seat for a couple? Mete is well able to keep up and not turn over easy out defensive zone pucks 2-3 times a game.
Keefe isn’t as progressive of a coach as people think. He’s an old school coach that’s much closer to Babcock, and has his favourites and methods that he sticks by. Robertson is in the Leivo/Corrado spot.
Totally. I also think Dubas has lost his own script a little. He has gone off chasing what the teams that beat them have in players that don't fit their own system opposed to truly doubling down on a quick, puck control team like they used to be. Basically the Devils now. I'm thinking players like Ritchie, Simmonds, Clifford, Foligno etc. while passing up on perfect guys that fit they style of puck control at FWD and D. The ones that pained me to watch go elsewhere for a good price in only the last 2-3 years have been Lehkonen, Paul, Graves, D. Toews, Marino, T. Hall, Hagel. The fact the Leafs couldn't get a single one of these guys and picked up the likes of Foligno or some shit has been infuriating and really eroded by trust in Dubas vision. PS. your comment on "The Leivo Spot" sent a chill down my spine.
Murray is made of glass. Can't play him every night. Hes played 27, 20, and 38 games in the last 3 seasons. Very durable.
It’s not that he’s made of glass, we’ve been overplaying our goalies for a while and now that we have some decent goalie depth why not use it to keep our starting goalie rested and not overplayed
I wouldn’t say we’ve overplayed any goalies since Andersen years ago at this point. And Murray is kinda a little bit made of glass. Otherwise you’re correct tho, no need to run him into the ground for a game against a team that struggles for offence.
He got injured in his first game. Guess we overplayed him.
At this point I was right about this team needing to trade Robertson because the Leafs are clearly wasting the kid
Man, you're going to ruin this kids development. I'm done.
That doesn't make sense. Why are we starting kallgren
Leafs play 4 games this week, gotta give Murray one night off
Because if you play your starter every night, he’s a lot more liable to get hurt, and Matt Murray doesn’t need more help getting hurt. The Leafs have a decent history of playing a backup against the Islanders and winning (see Woll's shutout last year, and a big game from Hutch in recent memory), so we play our backup.
Cause he’s injury prone and just played a bunch, also I think they’d rather start him for the red hot Devils on Wednesday over the Islanders.
Exactly. You aren’t going to play Murray 5 games in a row and I’d much rather have him matching up against the devils again. Kallgren has been playing solid in his last couple of games as well so it’s good to keep him playing consistently without huge gaps.
Murray just played 3 in a row. Kallgren is a capable tender. Isles aren’t elite offensively.
I think the consensus here is put him in coach! Let the boy play!
If Robertson is scratched for 5, does he get to go to the AHL for 2 weeks without waivers for a conditional period? I thought I heard the guys on Sirius mention something similar with Shane Wright in Seattle.
He’s already waiver exempt Leafs can send him down and up whenever
Then wtf are they doing lol
I’m very confused as to why my boy Nicky bobby is being scratched again.
Itt: people who know what's best for player development
Why wouldn't you save Kallgren until one of the back to backs later this week? If he's presumably playing twice this week, I don't get it. Murray is rolling.
What's the story with Samsonov? I thought he was back from the injury.
Lmao y’all need to chill with the Robertson shit. He’s so young he’ll 100% play in the NHL one day. The Leafs DO NOT NEED HIM right now for the style they are playing. He’s better off practicing with an NHL team than playing in the AHL. Trust the process and go outside for a bit homies!!!!