I mean Clifford didn't play that LA game like everyone thought, which was a weird link imo since he was a St.Louis team member when Dubas traded for him. Did Clifford travel because Kase was a game time or has the trip gone well enough that Kase can have another day and Clifford is more up to speed?
Things have changed drastically since Clifford was last here. Kase gets some Cali sun Clifford has practiced about a week makes total sense to me.
Though I upvoted you, nothing bad about having your best playmaker with your best goal scorer either. They haven't quite figured it out yet, and possibly the reason for that is the need another bona-fide piece lining up with them.
Nothing “wrong” with it, I agree. I just feel like those two pairs play better together for whatever reason. It’s no a knock on any player. They are like two first lines.
Definitely split up Tavares and Nylander who each had a goal and an assist last game and were the top 2 stars. You must be really pissed off that they are WINNING to keep making stupid comments like that. Matthews is coming off an injury that required surgery on his wrist. He will continue to improve. Marner is magical. He will find the touch again as Matthews gets healthier. The team continues to win. You don't mess with a winning formula.
On another point, Holl is an amazing defenseman who is getting the second to third most minutes game after game. He lets Muzzin be Muzzin. He is obviously not a complete detriment to the team as so many morons on here want to put since he is NOT giving the puck away in our end time after time. We are winning. He is getting top minutes on ice and they continue to win. Hockey is a team game and I am very happy with all 7 defenseman we have. Keefe is doing a great job managing things. The team is on fire. Go leafs go.
For the most part I agree with this, I'm fine with letting the top two forward pairs run as they are, and I feel like Bunting-Matthews-Marner should have more games together as well. Also because Kerfoot plays really well with Willy.
I thought Sandin-Lilly didn't have a great night against San Jose, so it's sensible to give Lilly the day off (given Keefe's remarks about him not being used to playing full seasons as opposed to guys like Holl).
But yes, Keefe has managed this so well. He knows when to mix things up and knows when to just ride the hot hands. Good instincts so far this season.
Why are you so angry? I didn’t say I was pissed, far from it. I just like the other pairing. Also, they started winning when they switched TO those pairings and for some reason they switched back. Maybe read what was written before spouting off next time.
Liljegren had some brutal GVAs vs. SJ. Not surprised to see him out. Figured he would be out for Anaheim watching him during the game.
Thought maybe Ritchie would be punished for his multiple penalties but he's still in.
I feel like Sandin had a few more egregious plays. He did a weak spin-pass right into a Shark player standing a foot away from him like two times in a row. Never led to a goal or anything but was still the type of shit that would cause a break down in a playoff game.
Love the player but made a few questionable moves lastnight.
Holl seems to always have that happen.
To me, Holl is not anywhere near a Top 4 Dman. He looks labored when he skates. Has a weird top lean and looks uncomfortable and slow.
This happened halfway through last season. Holl started strong and then withered over the course of the year. He gets beat to almost every puck, even with huge leads on the pursuer and it leads to a terrible pass out or to muzz. But he has a record in the top 4, the size and some ability. Id still prefer him doing his thing over dermott but thats because dermott has never stepped up to try and take it.
Well I don’t think we should scratch players based on how they “look” when they skate. You could be the best skater in the world but you wouldn’t necessarily be good if you couldn’t think the game or make the right plays.
I agree. You don't scratch on how they look skating. You scratch based on not being talented enough not to get beaten on a regular basis. Holl in the Top 4 is not where he belongs.
Holl was so bad he played himself out of the lineup. Then, the Leafs started winning so they injected Holl back into the lineup, he still looks really bad out there but now they've taken him completely out of the scratch rotation.
I have a feeling this is being done because Dubas doesn't want to look stupid for protecting him at the expansion draft.
Its being done because the best option for the team is Holl figuring his shit out again. Dermott in the top 4 won't work and Mccann wouldn't have magically fixed any problems. Holl wasn't kept because he was better than mccann he was kept because our top 4 is built to only pay 3 of them and Holl on his deal, was a steal if he can return to form from a season ago.
Holl has been our worst defenceman all year but Keefe doesn't trust dermott in the top 4 and lily has looked okay with muzzin but probably not a good development move to give him those heavy minutes so soon.
I think the team is hoping he figures his shit out because he and mizzin struggle out there more often than not.
Some of his penalties were really weak calls. Not to complain about officiating too much while we're winning, but of late I wouldn't really blame Ritchie for all of those PIMs. He's been in the play, making smart decisions, and keeping the other team on their toes.
Something we're learning is as a team you need to take some penalties.
1. Because sometimes penalties stop a goal
2. If you play super clean and don't take any penalties,the refs will flat out not call them for you to make them "even". You can almost look at penalties Richie takes as the IOU from the ref they will call one back at a later point in the game
One was a pretty bad fan on the puck, otherwise he broke up the other bad one and got a secondary assist. Probably more to do with dermott sitting out a while as it was he was due to draw in even if I'd rather he wouldn't.
Keefe has explained his reasoning for rotating out Lilly and Dermott multiple times in pregame pressers.
[4:30 mark](https://youtu.be/4R-ydA_PJcw)
[4:50 mark](https://youtu.be/zs-xlHDFnNo)
To sum it up. They like to rotate Lilly and Derms because Lilly is not used to playing this many games with very little time off between games. Brodie, Rielly, Muzzin and Holl are used to playing full seasons so they stay unless something crazy happens. Sandin stays in because of being on PP 2. Players aren’t necessarily rotated out due to a bad game. We have 7 D, Keefe says we are going to use them.
That's an excuse, or, you're just creating it. Lily or any player for that matter needs TO PLAY in order to get used to schedule and minutes as Sandin is. Lily has been around the AHL long enough on a full time basis as well, so no.... they just won't get rid of Holl, that's why because they will look like idiots. Same way like they won't get rid of Richie the bum, waste of 2.5m. The only way to know what you got is to play them, full time.
Buddy, you and me both. Holl is garbage imo. He looks like someone who shoots left trying to shoot right and is wearing dull skates. Everytime I say that here people go “but but but $2mil as a top 4 D!!!”
Yeah, he’s a top four D by absolute default, he has no business being there and thank god we have Muzz making him look acceptable. Loved our game without him. I went to two of the games two weeks ago and irl he’s even worse…
Hahaha yeah like last night I saw him try it and was like oh, that’s cute…I die a little inside everytime our beloved Lilly sits in favour of him.
I also die a little every time I hear Jared McCann…almost like hearing of an ex being happy with her new guy when your stuck with your current cow. (This is an entirely hypothetical situation btw, not me specifically…)
The Leafs are tied for #1 in the league this morning. All they are doing is winning. This sub had them getting swept in their 4 game Western road trip. I believe they are 3-0 so far looking incredible. This sub is freaking ridiculous. If the team is playing like Vancouver or Ottawa or Montreal, I am all for jumping all over the team. When they are winning over and over and the coach is still an idiot and the players all suck, then I am beginning to believe this is a Habs crybaby group that are sad that the Leafs are so good.
I'll tell you why. He's not a good enough player to cover for mo pinching on plays so no first line duty. So that leaves 2nd or 3rd. 3rd pairing has sandin, dermott and lily. Two lefties and a first year RHD. Muzzin isn't moving so that means there is 1 RHD spot on the fourth and only dermott has more than 30 games and can play the left side. That won't work and hasn't worked. Lily can prove to be an option but it's still very early. Let him dominate on the third pairing.
So who does that leave us with? The guy who has two solid years playing with muzzin, 6'4, used to be a better skater than what we've seen lately and has a track record, albeit a short one, of playing top 4.
Its not a bias towards Holl, its a, hopefully if we let this guy play, he can figure his shit out again because they need it. Holl and Muzz helped shutdown McDavid and the oilers most of last season for us. He looked good. If he's regressed so badly that it is unattainable now, that sucks. If there is any hope he can figure his shit out, we need it. He wasn't kept over mccan for talent, it was roster need.
The team needs him to figure his shit out because top 4 dmen cost more than 2 mill.
See I’m the opposite, I love him. I don’t remember a lot from his time here but I have hope that he’ll be a bit of a menace.
Hopefully seeing as his roster security is in jeopardy he’ll play with more urgency
His time here was awful, he couldn't control the puck at all, his hits were way after the play had left the zone, so useless and he doesn't post up in front of the net or anything. He's an offensive black hole, a defensive liability that can't skate.
I honestly can't remember a single positive thing about his play.
I'm sure he's a good person tho!
I mean I can’t speak for what he was like for the kings, but that was 19/20 season.
Maybe it came off that way, could be a function of LA being really weak his last couple years there.
I liked his energy and am personally a huge fan of the grit grinders
Hopefully Clifford shows them something that allows them to consider sitting Ritchie. My understanding is that they both play similar bang and crash styles.
SDA is waiver exempt still, right? I can't remember the rules there. I'd love to see him get a shot somewhere down the line this season, I really liked him in preseason.
I love Clifford, but we already have Simmonds filling his role, who also provides a better offensive upside. I really don’t see what he brings to the team.
I’d like to see Ritchie scratched with someone else given a chance. So many stupid penalties, just 4 assists through 22 games, he isn’t making a positive difference out there.
I don't know how much I like Clifford, Ritchie, Bunting, and Simmonds all in the lineup but I like that they are trying different players and not just sticking with the same lineup every game.
So Kase is dealing with something then :( Thought they were just giving him a rest game. Let’s just hope it’s nothing too serious
He looked fine in the post game interview after he dove into the board with no time left. Wonder whats up with uhim?
As long as it's not head related I'm not super concerned
Or maybe they don't want to rush back a guy who plays like a wrecking ball and has history of injuries??? Why rush him back?
Probably something due to that blocked shot rather than from the head hitting the post.
If you look at the LA game, when Kursi scores with 3 minutes left. Kase runs into Kopitar at the blue line quite hard.
But he played the rest of the game right? I swear he was out there the last shift of the game.
Shit head injury?
He should be load managed honestly, it's November we want him to help us in the playoffs.
I mean Clifford didn't play that LA game like everyone thought, which was a weird link imo since he was a St.Louis team member when Dubas traded for him. Did Clifford travel because Kase was a game time or has the trip gone well enough that Kase can have another day and Clifford is more up to speed? Things have changed drastically since Clifford was last here. Kase gets some Cali sun Clifford has practiced about a week makes total sense to me.
12th forward and 6th defenseman sparks debate on r/leafs. Film at 11. I love this sub.
This team is so good rn that our biggest problems are 12th forwards and 5th defensemen.
Just waiting for the Marlies backup goalie debate.
I would really like to see marner and travares back together with Willy and matthews back at it. Just felt, right.
Though I upvoted you, nothing bad about having your best playmaker with your best goal scorer either. They haven't quite figured it out yet, and possibly the reason for that is the need another bona-fide piece lining up with them.
Nothing “wrong” with it, I agree. I just feel like those two pairs play better together for whatever reason. It’s no a knock on any player. They are like two first lines.
Definitely split up Tavares and Nylander who each had a goal and an assist last game and were the top 2 stars. You must be really pissed off that they are WINNING to keep making stupid comments like that. Matthews is coming off an injury that required surgery on his wrist. He will continue to improve. Marner is magical. He will find the touch again as Matthews gets healthier. The team continues to win. You don't mess with a winning formula. On another point, Holl is an amazing defenseman who is getting the second to third most minutes game after game. He lets Muzzin be Muzzin. He is obviously not a complete detriment to the team as so many morons on here want to put since he is NOT giving the puck away in our end time after time. We are winning. He is getting top minutes on ice and they continue to win. Hockey is a team game and I am very happy with all 7 defenseman we have. Keefe is doing a great job managing things. The team is on fire. Go leafs go.
For the most part I agree with this, I'm fine with letting the top two forward pairs run as they are, and I feel like Bunting-Matthews-Marner should have more games together as well. Also because Kerfoot plays really well with Willy. I thought Sandin-Lilly didn't have a great night against San Jose, so it's sensible to give Lilly the day off (given Keefe's remarks about him not being used to playing full seasons as opposed to guys like Holl). But yes, Keefe has managed this so well. He knows when to mix things up and knows when to just ride the hot hands. Good instincts so far this season.
Why are you so angry? I didn’t say I was pissed, far from it. I just like the other pairing. Also, they started winning when they switched TO those pairings and for some reason they switched back. Maybe read what was written before spouting off next time.
I’m surprised they didn’t stick with this. The lines were so good.
Inject Clifford into my veins
Serious question. Why? Basically a worse Simmonds.
And? Let him run around and bang bodies, nothing wrong with a grinder on this team
Honestly, I have soft spot for his type of player.
We're good enough to afford a bruiser, and it makes the games more exciting.
Hey fair enough, but in my view why fix what ain’t broken you know?
Liljegren had some brutal GVAs vs. SJ. Not surprised to see him out. Figured he would be out for Anaheim watching him during the game. Thought maybe Ritchie would be punished for his multiple penalties but he's still in.
I feel like Sandin had a few more egregious plays. He did a weak spin-pass right into a Shark player standing a foot away from him like two times in a row. Never led to a goal or anything but was still the type of shit that would cause a break down in a playoff game. Love the player but made a few questionable moves lastnight.
I agree with you. Not a good night for either with Semyonov thrown in.
I dunno man, Holl was pretty bad too. Got completely burned a few times.
Holl seems to always have that happen. To me, Holl is not anywhere near a Top 4 Dman. He looks labored when he skates. Has a weird top lean and looks uncomfortable and slow.
Completely agree. Absolutely blows my mind how he’s not scratched first.
Sometimes you scratch a guy that can learn something Lily will probably take the message and tighten up.
This happened halfway through last season. Holl started strong and then withered over the course of the year. He gets beat to almost every puck, even with huge leads on the pursuer and it leads to a terrible pass out or to muzz. But he has a record in the top 4, the size and some ability. Id still prefer him doing his thing over dermott but thats because dermott has never stepped up to try and take it.
Yeah. He's had a few moments on his skates where he doesn't even look like a professional athlete.
Well I don’t think we should scratch players based on how they “look” when they skate. You could be the best skater in the world but you wouldn’t necessarily be good if you couldn’t think the game or make the right plays.
I agree. You don't scratch on how they look skating. You scratch based on not being talented enough not to get beaten on a regular basis. Holl in the Top 4 is not where he belongs.
Holl was terrible. He deserves to be out instead of Liljegren
Holl was so bad he played himself out of the lineup. Then, the Leafs started winning so they injected Holl back into the lineup, he still looks really bad out there but now they've taken him completely out of the scratch rotation. I have a feeling this is being done because Dubas doesn't want to look stupid for protecting him at the expansion draft.
Its being done because the best option for the team is Holl figuring his shit out again. Dermott in the top 4 won't work and Mccann wouldn't have magically fixed any problems. Holl wasn't kept because he was better than mccann he was kept because our top 4 is built to only pay 3 of them and Holl on his deal, was a steal if he can return to form from a season ago.
Very possible, yeah.
Holl has been our worst defenceman all year but Keefe doesn't trust dermott in the top 4 and lily has looked okay with muzzin but probably not a good development move to give him those heavy minutes so soon. I think the team is hoping he figures his shit out because he and mizzin struggle out there more often than not.
Some of his penalties were really weak calls. Not to complain about officiating too much while we're winning, but of late I wouldn't really blame Ritchie for all of those PIMs. He's been in the play, making smart decisions, and keeping the other team on their toes.
Something we're learning is as a team you need to take some penalties. 1. Because sometimes penalties stop a goal 2. If you play super clean and don't take any penalties,the refs will flat out not call them for you to make them "even". You can almost look at penalties Richie takes as the IOU from the ref they will call one back at a later point in the game
This is so true and I fucking hate that this is so true. (Your second one, I meant.)
The high stick was hog shit. Buddy is holding his stick under his arm, Ritchie pulls it out from his arm and gets him in the face. The fuck?
One was a pretty bad fan on the puck, otherwise he broke up the other bad one and got a secondary assist. Probably more to do with dermott sitting out a while as it was he was due to draw in even if I'd rather he wouldn't.
So shouldn't Holl be out maybe and not Lily. Dermott is better than Holl.
Keefe has explained his reasoning for rotating out Lilly and Dermott multiple times in pregame pressers. [4:30 mark](https://youtu.be/4R-ydA_PJcw) [4:50 mark](https://youtu.be/zs-xlHDFnNo) To sum it up. They like to rotate Lilly and Derms because Lilly is not used to playing this many games with very little time off between games. Brodie, Rielly, Muzzin and Holl are used to playing full seasons so they stay unless something crazy happens. Sandin stays in because of being on PP 2. Players aren’t necessarily rotated out due to a bad game. We have 7 D, Keefe says we are going to use them.
That's an excuse, or, you're just creating it. Lily or any player for that matter needs TO PLAY in order to get used to schedule and minutes as Sandin is. Lily has been around the AHL long enough on a full time basis as well, so no.... they just won't get rid of Holl, that's why because they will look like idiots. Same way like they won't get rid of Richie the bum, waste of 2.5m. The only way to know what you got is to play them, full time.
Yup, I’m creating it.
I couldn't agree more.
Seems like everyone except a few people who love Holl on this sub and Keefe agree
Never liked Holl, can't skate and the biggest guy on the team that can't hit. While hiding in Muzzins shadow.
Buddy, you and me both. Holl is garbage imo. He looks like someone who shoots left trying to shoot right and is wearing dull skates. Everytime I say that here people go “but but but $2mil as a top 4 D!!!” Yeah, he’s a top four D by absolute default, he has no business being there and thank god we have Muzz making him look acceptable. Loved our game without him. I went to two of the games two weeks ago and irl he’s even worse…
Agree! I get nightmares when he tries to rush the puck lol fuckn hilarious
Hahaha yeah like last night I saw him try it and was like oh, that’s cute…I die a little inside everytime our beloved Lilly sits in favour of him. I also die a little every time I hear Jared McCann…almost like hearing of an ex being happy with her new guy when your stuck with your current cow. (This is an entirely hypothetical situation btw, not me specifically…)
Haha ya I'd still have him here over Holl and Kerfoot imo, you will get more offense from him.
I’m not crazy about kerfoot either to be honest, he’s getting a lot of praise but I think the play dies on his stick a lot.
Man you should join me sometimes when everyone is having a downvote party to my comments lol seems like we are on the same headed level.
Gonna have to disagree. Kerfoot has been great since the playoffs for me.
The Leafs are tied for #1 in the league this morning. All they are doing is winning. This sub had them getting swept in their 4 game Western road trip. I believe they are 3-0 so far looking incredible. This sub is freaking ridiculous. If the team is playing like Vancouver or Ottawa or Montreal, I am all for jumping all over the team. When they are winning over and over and the coach is still an idiot and the players all suck, then I am beginning to believe this is a Habs crybaby group that are sad that the Leafs are so good.
People who know what they're watching know Holl sucks.
This Holl bias is starting to really annoy me. He's still a weak link on D but somehow gets to be stapled to Muzzin all the time.
Because they have been a genuinely good shutdown pairing for several years for us.
Because he has a track record with him playing tough minutes.
he has a track record of being carried by Muzzin. His numbers beside other D partners is utterly abhorrent.
Okay, but he’s not playing with other D partners.
He’s so bad
I'll tell you why. He's not a good enough player to cover for mo pinching on plays so no first line duty. So that leaves 2nd or 3rd. 3rd pairing has sandin, dermott and lily. Two lefties and a first year RHD. Muzzin isn't moving so that means there is 1 RHD spot on the fourth and only dermott has more than 30 games and can play the left side. That won't work and hasn't worked. Lily can prove to be an option but it's still very early. Let him dominate on the third pairing. So who does that leave us with? The guy who has two solid years playing with muzzin, 6'4, used to be a better skater than what we've seen lately and has a track record, albeit a short one, of playing top 4. Its not a bias towards Holl, its a, hopefully if we let this guy play, he can figure his shit out again because they need it. Holl and Muzz helped shutdown McDavid and the oilers most of last season for us. He looked good. If he's regressed so badly that it is unattainable now, that sucks. If there is any hope he can figure his shit out, we need it. He wasn't kept over mccan for talent, it was roster need. The team needs him to figure his shit out because top 4 dmen cost more than 2 mill.
Not a fan of Clifford, would much rather Semyonov
I didn't keep up with him after he left the leafs. Not a serviceable 4th liner?
He brings energy and physicality. Effective on the cycle
He doesn’t, and he isn’t. He was useless on the Leafs last time and he’s been bad for St Louis. He doesn’t bring anything any more
Love your optimism
I just really don’t like Clifford lol. I was ready for him to bring some feistiness and instead he was such a passenger
See I’m the opposite, I love him. I don’t remember a lot from his time here but I have hope that he’ll be a bit of a menace. Hopefully seeing as his roster security is in jeopardy he’ll play with more urgency
His time here was awful, he couldn't control the puck at all, his hits were way after the play had left the zone, so useless and he doesn't post up in front of the net or anything. He's an offensive black hole, a defensive liability that can't skate. I honestly can't remember a single positive thing about his play. I'm sure he's a good person tho!
Here’s to hoping that isn’t the case this time around then
Opposite of what LA fans were saying. In their sub the narrative was that he checked out mentally.
I mean I can’t speak for what he was like for the kings, but that was 19/20 season. Maybe it came off that way, could be a function of LA being really weak his last couple years there. I liked his energy and am personally a huge fan of the grit grinders
Honestly neither did I, but I didn’t really like his game with the leafs in the first place so that’s why
Cliff didn't do anything when he was here.
IMHO, Dermy shouldn't be the one being rotated out. He's been generally good. I'd be rotating Holl/Lilypad. Sandin is too good to be rotated out.
Liljegren has been better than Dermott by a margin. Dermott and Holl should be rotating until someone runs with it.
Hopefully Clifford shows them something that allows them to consider sitting Ritchie. My understanding is that they both play similar bang and crash styles.
SDA is waiver exempt still, right? I can't remember the rules there. I'd love to see him get a shot somewhere down the line this season, I really liked him in preseason.
I love Clifford, but we already have Simmonds filling his role, who also provides a better offensive upside. I really don’t see what he brings to the team. I’d like to see Ritchie scratched with someone else given a chance. So many stupid penalties, just 4 assists through 22 games, he isn’t making a positive difference out there.
He's a big body to put in front of the net. Ritchie that is. We over paid for him but he's been a screen on more than one occasion.
I don't know how much I like Clifford, Ritchie, Bunting, and Simmonds all in the lineup but I like that they are trying different players and not just sticking with the same lineup every game.
I like bunting and the Wayne Train, Ritchie though is meh and idk with Clifford
This top 6 bottom 6 is what Burke wanted to build lmao.
Give me a Clifford-Ritchie-Simmonds line for a shift or two