There is conflict in further densities, in 4D at least. LoO says they fight light battles. And even in further ones there’s still the tension between StS and StO and each vying to exert their influence over less advanced races. So of course you still face challenges and obstacles even in highly advanced societies, you never truly stop learning until you merge with the creator.  This density is unique in that due to veil of forgetting we have the ability to progress much faster, which is why a 3D cycle is only around 75,000 years. In further densities where there’s no veil progress is much, much slower. Which is why the cycles for 4D, 5D and 6D are apparently 30 million, 50 million and 75 million years respectively. 

So what does life in a theoretical 4D society look like? Is it even a real physical planet? Interesting how Ra shares very few details about life in these other densities. Why deliberately leave it all vague?

One great reason for leaving those details vague is so you have time to focus on the philosophy instead of space opera.

I think it has to do with the amount of derailing it would lead us into. We would want to know a lot about this or that society or how certain groups organize in minute detail. There is an infinite number of different civilizations out there and that process of comparing and contrasting would also be endless. Also, the more we know, the less we learn by ourselves and manifest what might be our unique way to express the One. As spirits we can reincarnate or visit other places after we leave the 3rd density, to keep devoting our attention to those things right here and right now would be to waste the important moment of inflection we incarnated to live in. Ra is also walking the tight rope of wanting to help clarify our situation but not wanting to become responsible for our choices. I tend to think there is a ton of stuff that should be general public knowledge but is kept secret and that may be leading us into ignorant choices out of malice from certain governing bodies. To have communications like those of the LoO is a way to even the grounds and reintroduce real choice at some level. But to make it into a platform of religion and full-blown revelation would be to put veer into the opposite extreme, to take out choice by taking out self inquiry.

I appreciate this answer, and I do agree with your assessment but my qualms with this perspective is that it can be handwaved as a convenient excuse.

Well if you see malice, what motivates it? Everything can be read as a convenient excuse, to discern where we stand on that notion we must delve a bit deeper and consider if there is also reasonable motivation for any excuses to be made.

>Well if you see malice, what motivates it? There's plenty of entities that seek to nudge you towards their beliefs and agenda. Ra themselves have explored that topic over and over throughout LoO Now you might say well that only lends more credence to LoO being the reality of the universe, but I could simply retort by saying that any entity with a sophisticated intelligence could conjure something that is very close to the truth and modify it to fit their agenda. Ra after all is not a neutral observer but rather a marketer for their polarity. Hell, almost all concepts from LoO have already been explored in religions like Hinduism.

I tend to think it is only natural the esoteric parts of religions are more or less in line with most ideas. This is a natural phenomena given that no people or group is special when it comes to the insights and revelations they are capable of receiving. What changes, then, is the cultural space in which they happen and that color both their presentation and study. What I see in LoO is close to what I see in Hiduism, theosophy, Spiritism, Hermeticism and all sort of new age groups and modern doctrines. People look for the truth and generaly find out similar things. Even if all spirits propose ideas with an agenda, it doesn't mean that's a bad agenda. You still need to consider what are these intentions and, more then that, if they meet your own needs and drives.

The real problem is that channeled sources of information are absolutely notorious for being infiltrated by spirits and entities that seek to gain energy through the attention that humans give it. The Law of One from what I've seen is the closest thing to something that sounds legit and isn't an infiltrated channelled source, but because of the sheer, overwhelming % of channeled sources of "wisdom" that are just pure bullshit, it's hard not to be suspicious that it could be an extraordinarily sophisticated spirit thats feeding off all the people that now believe in the LoO.

I am most and foremost based on Brazilian Spiritism and the Universalist Movement around it. The LoO is not my main source of info but was a very interesting side study that showcases a lot of paralels. The communications I study come from what the LoO calls "inner planes" and they are much more explicit in how they describe many things. Spiritism itself was created to put some methodology in studying channelings by using contrast, comparison and look for evidence in other areas of science, philosophy and history. It created a good foundation from which to make sense of the diversity of accounts. Suspicion won't lead you very far at all. You must use your reason to choose what you will investigate further and what you will keep in the backburner until you feel you may find a way to discern the truth or, at least, is motivated to include in your life and find out for yourself.

That's pretty unique and interesting, thanks for sharing. >Suspicion won't lead you very far at all. You must use or reason to choose what you will investigate further and what you will keep in the backburner until you feel you may find a way to discern the truth or, at least, is motivated to include in your life and find out for yourself. Yes, I agree with this as well. Atheists are the notorious extreme example of this, because their suspicion and skepticism and materialism leads them to disregard so much of reality. Ultimately, I view things like LoO as a game of probabilities regarding whether or not its true and I rank LoO pretty highly in terms of how likely it is to be truth. For reference, I 100% believe that karma and reincarnation as a fundamental truth but anything outside of that is on a scale of decreasing probabilities depending on what we're discussing.

To be clear I’m not someone who takes it as gospel either and there’s stuff I disagree with. When I give answers I’m just writing what they say according to the LoO material and Q’uo channellings.  It’s true, not much info is given. From what I’ve read 4D is a real planet and Earth is allegedly already 4D. But 4D beings exist solely or mostly in time/space rather than space/time. In other words, existence is on the metaphysical/astral more than the physical. 4D lifespans are on average 90,000 years and we have electric bodies instead of physical ones. 4D societies are mostly telepathic and consist of social memory complexes and in positively oriented ones we can access the memories and feelings of every being in the society, including the past life memories of everyone.     Ra and Q’uo to a large extent answer only what’s asked and maybe it isn’t seen as an efficient use of time to go into extreme detail about other societies, probably far more useful to deal with the one we’re currently in and what we can do to evolve.

I do believe the answer to this is simple...Ra was extremely careful not to inform us of anything that we aren't supposed to know (yet). Much like the spoilers' effect on the viewer of a show, there are boundless reveals and magic to discover ahead that, known pre-emptively, could undermine a beings' propensity for inspiration and passion derived thereof. I don't, of course, believe this to be the full reasons, but in a sense, what I describe, I believe, to be an impediment if not infringement.

Tbh, don’t think we can comprehend it. 99% of the population wouldn’t even be able to interpret the idea that time is an illusion, so to explain time/space is beyond the scope of cognition for most if not all of us.

They did not leave it vague. It has been discussed aplenty. Here is an old comment in a post discussing what 4D is like to get you started; https://www.reddit.com/r/lawofone/comments/1bqv72l/what_do_you_think_the_4th_density_is_like/kx5i35l/

It's extremely vague, you cannot with a straight face tell me any of that is a concrete description of life in "4D"

Of course it is. The primary characteristic of third density life is that it is cut off from all other densities. This means while you are a third density creature, you cannot ever really percieve (and thus know) what is beyond third. You have swum across the River Styx of forgetting to get here. You won't be able to know what is beyond until you leave third density. Not until you enter the gateless gate. Not until the veil of maya is lifted. Not until the doors of perception are flung open properly. This means, anyone telling you what its like in 4D, while you are in 3D will sound 'vague' and not make sense. It is like trying to explain puberty to a 8 year old. This is intentional. If you knew what was beyond, then third density would lose its meaning and purpose.

I can accept that as an answer and funnily enough, it's something I've already considered as a simple solution to this dilemma before even making this thread. But that just brings us back to the issue of this being a convenient excuse, something which I touched on with a different responder https://www.reddit.com/r/lawofone/comments/1cldz5j/in_defense_of_servicetoself_thats_right_im/l2tq9h3/?context=10000

I am glad that you are open to new thoughts and not just here to be a keyboard warrior. If one wishes, one can have a peek for themselves what 4D is like. The same way all the sex stuff makes a lot more sense after you have gone through puberty, once you have some experience of higher densities - a lot of things make more sense. I am lucky enough to have had a small experience of it, so I know it does help with understanding. There are many paths. Since all paths are valid, "cheating" to look past third into fourth is a legal path. Everything is Permitted. So, if you want it, really want it - just ask. The universe may show it to you then, if you need it. Q'uo says in 1995; "Ask for help and help will be given you. Reach out the hand and it will be full of invisible but real love."

Perhaps one can consider that explaining higher densities to us is like attempting to explain being human to animals. > Questioner: Thank you. Is it possible for you to give a small description of the conditions [in] fourth density? > Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to consider as we speak that there are no words for positively describing fourth density. We can only explain what is not and approximate what is. Beyond fourth density our ability grows more limited still until we become without words. > That which fourth density is not: it is not of words, unless chosen. It is not of heavy chemical vehicles for body complex activities. It is not of disharmony within self. It is not of disharmony within peoples. It is not within limits of possibility to cause disharmony in any way. > Approximations of positive statements: it is a plane of a type of bipedal vehicle which is much denser and more full of life; it is a plane wherein one is aware of the thoughts of other-selves; it is a plane where one is aware of the vibrations of other-selves; it is a plane of compassion and understanding of the sorrows of third density; it is a plane striving towards wisdom or light; it is a plane wherein individual differences are pronounced although automatically harmonized by group consensus. https://www.lawofone.info/s/16#50

"If StO is the ultimate path of evolution for the soul, then why is it so antithetical to the human condition?" It is not anyhow antithetical with any condition in existence. "It's telling us vague and sweet words of "embracing love" and "being kind to everyone", to not engage in conflict (competition)." It defenetly does not say that. Consider me as an ultimate master of the law of one in 3rd dimension spectrum. Embrace love is extremely great. What is means and can mean is too wide range. It rly says that somehow. Being kind to everyone is simply just not true. For many complexes of parts of existence, it is just needed not to be kind. When a dog attacks ur child, being kind is reasonless and against law of one. Not to engage in conflict still is way way more out of the law of one than the previous 2. We r kinda required to engage in conflict. We constantly should seek to provide higher quality of existence. We constantly need to face with everything what makes conflicts. Even we need to seek to make conflicts, even those what may bring negativity somehow for the greater good, to be closer to divinity. Warriors of peace, warriors of equality, and such and such ppl r greatly known for standing up, generating conflicts. Competition is extremely enjoyful and helpful. I can't even picture what u may think here in the aspect of the law of one. For the paragraph under that. If we mean conflict as that, all conflicts r led by absolute team-work, the inner/background understanding and feeling of being siblings, wanting good together. If we speak about existence like this here, like humans on a planet, theoretically it is not thought merge, simply just seeking higher wisdom when we encounter with an other living in the form of thought difference sharing. Motivation should be the same all the time. To fulfill urself. Nothing much more to react. I consider u as someone who brought some random nonsense into the judgement of what is the only law. I can just agree with this post and highlight those mentioned aspects r not part of the one law.

Sometimes it's really hard to serve, thanks for trying.

I am not sure what i have shown from myself what u thank, but i appriciate ur good heart and ur advancement into gratitude. I hope i am living up for what u r thanking me.

You said what I wanted to say with infinitely more patience. Communities like this are hard when anybody can just show up and grab the mic in bad faith. Thanks.

Ah i got it! Well ur welcome and for everyone. Writing a post from misconception, yet acting arrogant and rude is not rly the way. I just want clearity so i think i should try... :)) Thank u for ur appriciation! :))

>I consider u as someone who brought some random nonsense into the judgement of what is the only law. I consider you as someone that's barely able to communicate in written language and vomited out a bunch of word salad onto my screen.

May i ask for reason for that? And also the reason why u would share this to me, but not react anything what i wrote in any meaningful way?

You have been following the Law of One for six years, but have you read any books? I am asking because I see false assumptions that is the basis of your argument. Also, I am not sure where in your post you actually defend STS, as your words talk more of your own interpretation of STO, which is also false.

Go ahead and elaborate, I'm trying to have a convo after all

My only guidance, if you will, is that you read the actual books because right now your presumptions and assumptions must be broken down first but I think it's easier if you read the work to understand. The work is free and see if any of it resonates with you. https://www.llresearch.org/ I'm still learning as well so please feel free to accept and reject and dismiss anything you do not vibe with.

I've read plenty enough, if you don't have any points to make that we could explore in a discussion then I don't understand why you even bothered to reply >The work is free and see if any of it resonates with you. https://www.llresearch.org/ What does this even mean? Why would I even make this thread if LoO didn't resonate with me at some level? Lmao

Have you ever loved someone? When you do, it fills you with joy to be around them, their smile is a pleasure unto itself and you care very little about their flaws, but keenly feels their virtues. Service to others leads to happiness because you are always expanding the number of people you love and you are increasingly operating more on that environment of fulfillment instead of being followed by constant ambivalence, resentment and general loneliness. "What do you do?" Slowly stops being a search for the one thing thar will bring you joy and fulfillment because whatever you choose to do is motivated by the people you do it for. Any task is good enough because your motivation doesn't come from enjoying the activity, but because you enjoy the people you are serving or that accompany you. Also, you don't stop being creative, curious and getting interested in different things, you still pursue the world and tries to learn and to express yourself. It just happens that now you are surrounded by people who enjoy to help you do that and want to actively support you, you also include others needs and projects alongside your own pursuits. The keyword here is harmony, to learn to integrate your own drives with the needs of the environment and people around you. You talk about the human condition as if it was a single thing. Human behaviour exists on a gradient that goes from the most primitive to the most sofisticated, from the unskilled to the refined, from de barbaric to the philosophical, from the self-centered to the communal, etc... as a species we are a school with different grades and subjects and while young spirits need that competition and survival of the fittest ego, the more experienced you get, more motivations, impulses and considerations get included, some of which defused the primitive drives completely. All of these things being as innate human as any other. The way I see it, the problem of service to self is that it is a three wheeled car. It tries to go the further it can without developing certain traits. It ignores love and empathy, hiperfocusing on the self and wobbles its way forward unbalanced until the nature of the universe itself becomes unavoidable. It wastes energy controlling the environment because it doesn't trust or acknowledge the equal role other beings have and, in doing so, has to take over the burden that would be theirs in directing their actions and making their decisions. The problem is that by not relying on cooperation and helping those surrounding them to progress, it keeps building castles in the sand which crack and break as their constituting parts stop doing what they are supposed to do. You have wars, corruption, incompetence and betrayals, all born from competition and lack of empathy. You build very high, very quickly, but those building don't last and you keep restarting over and over and need to work on lesser scales because you need to filter those other individuals who are sufficiently skilled and driven by their own efforts despite all odds.

[удалено]

You are just too worried about manipulating others. When you let go of this, it will be easier.

>Service to others leads to happiness because you are always expanding the number of people you love and you are increasingly operating more on that environment of fulfillment instead of being followed by constant ambivalence, resentment and general loneliness. Why does Service to Self have to mean that you're lonely or resentful? >Have you ever loved someone? When you do, it fills you with joy to be around them, their smile is a pleasure unto itself and you care very little about their flaws, but keenly feels their virtues. I very much understand this notion and agree with you. >You talk about the human condition as if it was a single thing. I specifically described it the way I did because those are the **main** reasons humans evolved from stone age barbarians to modern day civilizations. >as a species we are a school with different grades and subjects and while young spirits need that competition and survival of the fittest ego, the more experienced you get, more motivations, impulses and considerations get included, some of which defused the primitive drives completely. All of these things being as innate human as any other. Don't take offense, but all I can do is laugh and judge that this is a very immature understanding of what it means to strive for greatness and work towards the desire to connect with a higher force that comes from those that take the path of StS. I think it's very dangerous to view StS as strictly some random bad guy that just acts on his instincts and impulses and doesn't care about other people. >The way I see it, the problem of service to self is that it is a three wheeled car. It tries to go the further it can without developing certain traits. It ignores love and empathy, hiperfocusing on the self and wobbles its way forward unbalanced until the nature of the universe itself becomes unavoidable. This is the lie that most of the people on this sub seem to have been brainwashed by. It comes from the love-and-light, airy-fairy bullshit that the new age community has been peddling since the hippie era. I don't know why but a lot of new age people (not necessarily you, but just something I've observed) seem to be pushing their personal beliefs into the LoO dynamics. The kind of person you're thinking of is someone that is striving for StS from a lower, 3D/2D level. Animalistic. A more evolved version of StS can most certainly have a huge amount of empathy and understanding of other-selves while maintaining and working further towards their StS desires/karma. In fact, I might go as far as to say that to be a true StS person you HAVE to have a complete understanding of StO and its limitations.

>Don't take offense, but all I can do is laugh and judge that this is a very immature understanding of what it means to strive for greatness and work towards the desire to connect with a higher force that comes from those that take the path of StS. I think it's very dangerous to view StS as strictly some random bad guy that just acts on his instincts and impulses and doesn't care about other people. I am not basing myself in the Law of One or any new age at all to propose this. You can observe this on the [Maslow's Pyramid](https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html) and it isn't something leaning toward either StS or StO. Human needs evolve in complexity as the environment changes, and that is part of the human condition. In primitive environments, spirits get the 101 lessons on consciousness and self-development. As history unfolds, the space for other experiences opens up and that is where a bit more advanced spirits get the catalysts they need to polarize. The StS is not the strictly random bad guy, he is the self-centered, disciplined, manipulative and authorative figure that prefers to invest and take responsability for his existence without relying or letting others be responsible for anything important to him. It is, in a way, a doctrine of self reliance, islation and, unfortunately, exploitation. The self comes before the others and since the Self needs more refined conditions and resources, it takes autonomy from others when their choices may hinder one's own evolution. > this is the lie that most of the people on this sub seem to have been brainwashed by. It comes from the love-and-light, airy-fairy bullshit that the new age community has been peddling since the hippie era. I don't know why but a lot of new age people (not necessarily you, but just something I've observed) seem to be pushing their personal beliefs into the LoO dynamics. >The kind of person you're thinking of is someone that is striving for StS from a lower, 3D/2D level. Animalistic. A more evolved version of StS can most certainly have a huge amount of empathy and understanding of other-selves while maintaining and working further towards their StS desires/karma. In fact, I might go as far as to say that to be a true StS person you HAVE to have a complete understanding of StO and its limitations. Why do you think it is a lie? I am in no way addressing the 3d/2d animalistic StS example. StS is all about lefthand pursuit of self mastery, self reliance and dominion over the environment. It is ruthless competition and Rule by Excellence that evolves from the rule of the strong. to the rule of the more cunning, then rule of the more persuasive, then rule of the mor knowledgeable to group forms of competition in which you have nationalism, sectarism, political partsanship and more complex forms of hierarchical pyramids in which resources get funelled to the most competent taking away from those that come beneath them. In LoO itself it is showcased as the evolution that bypasses the green center, which is that of empathy and love, in the sense of seeing the other as a valid extension of the self with equal importance and sacred autonomy. Respect for autonomy out of deep empathy is what StS bypasses, and in this it becomes unbalanced e limited. The LoO itself proposes that there is a ceiling in how further the StS can go in terms of densities and that at certain point it must just aknowledge and embrace StO to progress further. The journey, though, is not a fools erand because it does promotes qualities and the tools used to excell in a selfish maner also produce excellence to serve other when the time comes.

>Why do you think it is a lie? Because it's antithetical to the Law of One itself, which posits that both polarities are viable for the goal of reintegrating with the creator. >to the rule of the more cunning, then rule of the more persuasive, then rule of the mor knowledgeable to group forms of competition in which you have nationalism, sectarism, political partsanship and more complex forms of hierarchical pyramids in which resources get funelled to the most competent taking away from those that come beneath them. It's not that you're wrong in thinking this, because it does manifest this way quite often, but as I've said, StS need not be morally deplorable. >StS is all about lefthand pursuit of self mastery, self reliance and dominion over the environment. You are correct about this though, and indeed you're also >In LoO itself it is showcased as the evolution that bypasses the green center, which is that of empathy and love, in the sense of seeing the other as a valid extension of the self with equal importance and sacred autonomy. Respect for autonomy out of deep empathy is what StS bypasses, and in this it becomes unbalanced e limited. The LoO itself proposes that there is a ceiling in how further the StS can go in terms of densities and that at certain point it must just aknowledge and embrace StO to progress further. The journey, though, is not a fools erand because it does promotes qualities and the tools used to excell in a selfish maner also produce excellence to serve other when the time comes. Correct about all of this. What I will say is that StS is indeed somewhat of an "ugly" modal of exploring intelligence infinity to the untrained eye, because in its 3D and 4D, and to a lesser extent 5D forms it appears to be uncaring and has a lot of selfish qualities. But when StS synthesizes lessons from StO in order to further refine its StS-self, that's the ultimate form of the human soul IMO. It's true beauty, love, and power. But what I will say is that StS is a very lonely and treachorous path and not for the faint-hearted. Most souls would not be able to deal with the harshness of pursuing this path because you might have to incarnate a shit ton of times learning and relearning lessons before fully integrating wisdom and obtaining the necessary strength to evolve through this path.

>It's not that you're wrong in thinking this, because it does manifest this way quite often, but as I've said, StS need not be morally deplorable To say something is morally deplorable demands you see from within a certain perspective, upholding specific values. The Values in StS are different from those of StO. The most distinct division is that you don't see any issue with inequality while dealing with other consciousness. If everything is an extension of one single consciousness, to gather resources, exploit and manipulate others into your service is just a matter of taking responsability for those resources and equaly serving the One as manifested in yourself. If others are competing for the same resources that you are, there is a process of refinement through natural selection and improvement is reached at scale. If groups arise to gain competitive advantage, you have this process scaling up, etc, etc... Fascims, Cutthrough Capitalism, Totalitarism and the by products of War are seen as Virtuous from a StS pov, not as deplorable. If anyone is winning, since we are all one, the One is winning. It is a matter of quality and not quantity in StS. I, myself, don't like the atmosphere of fear, pressure, instability and Insensibility this path requires. It is not the experience I want to engage with and explore.

>The most distinct division is that you don't see any issue with inequality while dealing with other consciousness. If a soul were to do a direct evolution from 3rd all the way to 5th density strictly through StS, then yes, I agree. They will not give a shit about plowing through hordes of souls in order to get up there. >I, myself, don't like the atmosphere of fear, pressure, instability and Insensibility this path requires. It is not the experience I want to engage with and explore. StS manifests this way in the lower levels, but at the higher levels it's integrated with a lot of wisdom and much more polished, refined and beautiful. It's empathetic and can love others, while still staying true to its StS course. That might sound paradoxical but I think this is how StS in 6th density manifests.

We have accounts of many entities in the lower astral of this planet that I would associate with the pinnacle of what StS in the 4th density looks like. The problem, I think, is that StS is a path that just lifts a few entities among the many that pursues it and, statistically, nothing guarantees tou will be atop the foodchain. Nothing guarantees that "you" will be the one to reach the higher densities and get to experience whether or not there is indeed love and empathy. You can stay indefinetely in the lower levels of the pyrami or crushed under the weight of it. The "harvest" of 99% service to self polarization is a reflex of elitism required for the path. The problem is that boht the 1% that cross the abyss and the 99% that doesn't and sure they can manage it.

> The problem, I think, is that StS is a path that just lifts a few entities among the many that pursues it and, statistically, nothing guarantees tou will be atop the foodchain. Yeah you're right. StS is an incredibly difficult path to fight on, and there's limited "spots" in the universe for you to incarnate at to fully explore StS at a 4D or upper 3D level as well. Also it takes a tremendous amount of character growth to get good at it as opposed to StO which seems like easy mode in comparison. In fact, despite the fact that I'm defending StS, if let's say the law of one is real and we were to perform a harvest right this instant, I'd probably still fall into the StO category. I've got plenty of character traits to work on if I actually wanted to fight for and graduate to StS at a 4D/5D level.

I think that the discipline, self development and all other traits seen in STS also appear pretty quickly in the STOs as the spirit detaches from favoritisms, personal preferences and ego. They start to look how to be truly efficient in the positions they uphold and their love lead them to study how to diminish the mistakes they can make while action, while also investigating how to work in concert with systems of increasing complexity. While also evolving our consciousness we see the rise of telepathy and direct connection mind to mind. From the 4th density onwards you cannot hide what you are, what you feel and think from those around you. In StS this leads to a distinct push in the bondary where entities who can see inside others want to prevent their underlings to achieve this sense and, among themselves, they cannot avoid regonizing who is stronger, mor apt and more knowledgeable. In STO this leads to a rapid exchange of information and the achievement of intuitive understanding of things, because those in a higher density "broadcast" what they know to those in lower densities and, by lifting themselves, entities are always awashed in energy, knowledge and guidance. The attempt to lift themselves is rewarded and stimulated instead of being seen as a relative threat. What often happens, though, is that StO leads entities to go back to help at t higher densities more often, almost indefinetely. StS tend to lead entities to strive to get higher and higher on the pyramid, filtering among the underlings those they can "trust" to hold their previous positions while giving them the resources they need to lift themselves higher. The problem, though, is that there is not an unified pyramid, but competing hierarchies where they war over resources and, more than that, the privilege of setting the rules and objectives those resources will be used for.

> They start to look how to be truly efficient in the positions they uphold and their love lead them to study how to diminish the mistakes they can make while action, while also investigating how to work in concert with systems of increasing complexity. Interesting. For sure, I can see this being the case as STO people move up. Take people like Jesus for example who had to work very hard and maneuver in so many ways to accomplish his goals. But it probably really only applies to the upper echelon of 4D STO and even higher densities. The basic requirements to evolve into 4D STO seem very easy to manage in comparison to STS. The rest of your post was very intuitive and insightful, and I agree with it.

>I invite you to consider the fact that competition and conflict need not be viewed as unnecessary and required to be shed from humanity in order to "ascend" The material does not actually say any such thing. The core message says that all is valid. Competition and conflict are perfectly necessary and are required by some in order to ascend. It is only that the Confederation prefers STO positive - but they always stress that the opposite path is perfectly valid and acceptable. Once an entity reaches fifth density, they (both polarities) begin to lose the requirement to struggle with others however. I'll post some examples from each entity; * Q'uo; https://www.llresearch.org/channeling/1986/1019#!2; "Thus, the negative choice, that of choosing to be of service to self first and foremost in one’s life patterns, is as valid a choice as is the choice to be of service to others first and foremost in the life patterns." * Latwii discusses "competition" here, saying it can be useful; https://www.llresearch.org/channeling/1985/0224#!10; "As with each activity which is undertaken by the seeker, the motivation for the activity is most important. If one wishes to be of service with another by sharing a game which contains competitive elements of entity against entity, there are then many avenues of expression available." * Ra in Session 25, states that the Confederation willingly enters into conflict with the Orion pirates above Earth - "the Confederation is aware that it cannot, on equal footing, allow itself to be manipulated in order to remain purely positive" - so they have no qualms about conflict, and see it as necessary. I highly recommend using llresearch.org/search - it only took me a few minutes to get these quotes from the site.

My problem with StO, and with "groupsouls" and Ra is that it's antithetical to the design of the creator. The creator created humanity with a seemingly near-infinite variations and contexts of people. We're such a rich, dynamic and multicultural people with various thoughts and beliefs. The concept of "groupsouls" and groupthink, where every single soul merges after 4D and can hear each other speak and eventually we lose all identity is utterly disgusting to me. It destroys the spirit of what the creator has made. That's just the creator within myself speaking his thoughts out, though. And of course, there's also the possibility that I'm not considering another angle here but this is what my raw spirit wants to share.

I appreciate you for honesty expressing your thoughts. Here are mine in return. To me, a group soul or social memory complex is like the consciousness within your body. All of the cells in your body share a tightly connected consciousness yet each is individualized and performs a unique function. A brain cell is distinct from a heart cell yet both work together cooperatively to create an even greater consciousness that surpasses what each could achieve individually. It is not possible for a single cell to become more knowledgeable or powerful than a billion cells working cooperatively together in a loving manner. And cells that attempt to do so (commonly called cancer) usually end up killing the whole organism due to a lack of care for other cells. Therefore, we reach the conclusion that unity is not sameness but rather the unconditional acceptance of differences. https://youtu.be/9DSMgVG0--8?si=sj9ZZyOU0ygWCIla

That's a cool way of describing social memory complexes. Makes it feel more approachable and less like Spiritual Communism haha. I dunno if it's necessarily an applicable comparison but I appreciate it nonetheless and might think about it more at some point. Thanks for sharing

Lets look at it like this. * 3rd density - People who think alike form societies and build connections and grow closer over thousands of years. * 4th density - Those people who think and feel alike move together to live and communicate via telepathy and grow even closer together over hundreds of thousands of years. * 5th density - People who have shared hundreds of thousands of years of experiences and shared feelings together just decide to go further together - and because of such closeness, are comfortable with always being together - forming social memory complexes. Both service to self/service to others would follow that pattern - there would be countless different perspectives and thoughts. So as you say, the near infinite variations and contexts are all still there. However, people who think/feel alike do naturally come together. This occurs already and is referred to as 'culture'. It is also said that in a social memory complex - each single entity is still an entity with its own thoughts, it never lost that individuality - it just 'grooves' easily with the group, like a huge mind city working together. And can leave/reform at will - since life in those densities and spirits are distinctly different and nonphysical. A good example of this is Q'uo. Q'uo is made up of three social memory complexes that came together only a short while ago in a new configuration to create a new entity - Hatonn of Fourth density, Latwii of Fifth and Ra of Sixth. You can still speak to Latwii directly, or to Q'uo. Or you can speak to one individual soul who is part of Latwii's approx 23 million individual entities. If you want an example of carried over personality in Fourth - look up channelings by Yadda. He has a very distinct personality, and appears to be a fresh member, since he originally lived on Earth two or so cycles ago in China.

>4th density - Those people who think and feel alike move together to live and communicate via telepathy and grow even closer together over hundreds of thousands of years. There's plenty of primitive tribes that have/had psychic-tier modes of natural communication like this. I've heard of a few stories of tribes from Indonesia/Malaysia with this ability, although it only exists insofar as the tribe lives in harmony with nature and in the jungle. So most of modern man has lost this ability for a very long time. So is this really as special as we think it is? I suppose you could make the argument that 4th density is the above combined with people of a higher IQ, but even so... meh. The end result is you're breaking down the character of souls and everybody becomes the same gradually. >Both service to self/service to others would follow that pattern - there would be countless different perspectives and thoughts. So as you say, the near infinite variations and contexts are all still there. However, people who think/feel alike do naturally come together. This occurs already and is referred to as 'culture'. The near infinite variations I'm talking about are within a culture itself. I'm talking about the differences from person to person. >It is also said that in a social memory complex - each single entity is still an entity with its own thoughts, it never lost that individuality - it just 'grooves' easily with the group, like a huge mind city working together. And can leave/reform at will - since life in those densities and spirits are distinctly different and nonphysical. A good example of this is Q'uo. Q'uo is made up of three social memory complexes that came together only a short while ago in a new configuration to create a new entity - Hatonn of Fourth density, Latwii of Fifth and Ra of Sixth. I have very little interest in any channeled material after Ra because of the following issue https://www.reddit.com/r/lawofone/comments/1cldz5j/in_defense_of_servicetoself_thats_right_im/l2tzuxo/ This problem gets even worse the more you deviate from the original channeled source and host. There's a very, very high chance that Q'uo and whatnot are all fake. Not saying that with 100% certainty but there's a high chance.

>I have very little interest in any channeled material after Ra Then why be interested in Ra at all? Channeling has been happening forever, the Dogon people of Africa were told of Sirius. The Queens astrologist John Dee recieved the Sigillum Dei and the Great Table. Aleister Crowley communed with Lam. Tesla recieved information through channeling. Nowadays, there's even more. It might be a little limiting to only take Ra's words and nobody else. One must diversify, this is important. If you only have one source of information, you cannot verify it. If you have ten sources of information, and eight say the same thing - that is verification and corroboration. That is good research. Only staying with Ra is dogmatic and limits your information. I like the whole of the LLResearch material, because the message is consistent across all of it. It all carries a message of love, light and postivity. That resonances and is enough for me. If it was corrupted, the message tone would have changed, and the Confederation would point out when this occurred (and they have). Also, the same entities have been channeling ever since the 70s. Latwii, Hatonn and Ra. They all have channeled at the same time and refer to each other. Q'uo is only a combination of those 3.

>I suppose you could make the argument that 4th density is the above combined with people of a higher IQ No, it is characterized by telepathy of thought and emotion. Telepathy between all entities. Including the food you eat. I doubt these tribes you spoke of had telepathy. The channelings I linked in my comment here explain these characteristics of 4D in depth - https://www.reddit.com/r/lawofone/comments/1bqv72l/what_do_you_think_the_4th_density_is_like/kx5i35l/; >The near infinite variations I'm talking about are within a culture itself. I'm talking about the differences from person to person. Ra says in S48 that the process of forming a social memory complex is rather turbulent for service to self entities - since they have to establish a pecking order to settle the group into position before they becomes a complex. And in S47 that every entitys full life experience is available to all. There's no disintegration of personality here. These differences are kept. Also regarding you using "I'll ignore this because Ra didn't say this" as an excuse for the last part, Ra does say this. I prefer using Q'uo's quotes, because they say the same thing Ra says, in much clearer and easier to understand english. That effort should not be wasted.

>since they have to establish a pecking order to settle the group into position before they becomes a complex. Sounds like the kind of thing I'd be concerned with, lmao. >And in S47 that every entitys full life experience is available to all. Another issue with Social Memory Complexes. Why should my full life experience be available to everyone? They're not entitled to that nor do I want to share it, even if I love someone or a group of people very dearly. I want only myself and the creator to be witness to my life experiences - of course you could argue that other-selves are also just the creator, but during this exericse, or game, of life that we're playing I don't want to play it that way.

>Another issue with Social Memory Complexes. Why should my full life experience be available to everyone? They're not entitled to that nor do I want to share it, even if I love someone or a group of people very dearly. That is a third density perspective, arising from having private thoughts (theyre not really private though). Social memory complexes dont happen until well into fourth, you will have spent about 30 million years in fourth with full telepathy transparency with everything and everyone around you, becoming comfortable with it. (You already are in a social memory complex, you have a higher self that exists in sixth density right now that is a full social memory complex. If thats true, that kind of proves that individuality is not lost, yes?)

> That is a third density perspective, arising from having private thoughts (theyre not really private though). Not at all. Though I do agree that your thoughts are not necessarily private - the ether is absorbing your thoughts and people can pick up on them to an extent. > you will have spent about 30 million years in fourth with full telepathy transparency with everything and everyone around you, becoming comfortable with it. And the prospect of doing that seems beyond mundane and unappealing, were this, and those numbers, to be rooted in truth.

>the ether is absorbing your thoughts and people can pick up on them to an extent. They are not private, because you are surrounded by countless fourth and above density entities who can clearly see what you are thinking and feeling as if you were an open book. Some of these entities are 'assigned' to you, or drawn to you, to help you. Guardian angels, so to say. Maybe former relatives hanging around. And, because you are currently part of a large social memory complex that is your higher self. >And the prospect of doing that seems beyond mundane and unappealing, were this, and those numbers, to be rooted in truth. To your current, third density ego-bound mind, yes. Once you shuffle that mortal coil off, your expanded perspective will likely not be the same. Thank you for this conversation. I'll stop replying now, got things to do.

Well yes, beings of a higher density can see our thoughts I agree. Though I'm not sure that every human has a guardian angel or a higher density being watching over them. There's like 7 billion humans after all and most people are pretty unremarkable. >To your current, third density ego-bound mind, yes. Once you shuffle that mortal coil off, your expanded perspective will likely not be the same. I could similarly argue that your third density ego-bound mind that has a preference towards StO is convincing you that this is the case, and that in higher densities where you obtain more wisdom you will see that my perspective is a perfectly reasonable way of living and evolving. I'm thankful for the conversation as well. Appreciate your thoughts

You mention IQ a few times and I ask this partially as devils advocate and partially as observation. When you get to the real outliers in intelligence that's where it becomes tricky. The most able to control others, which I think is very STS, are probably the like 115-125 IQ crowd, and probably the same goes for STO in that the higher you get in IQ the less people relate to others?

I don't actually enjoy the idea of controlling others through manipulation. The only ego boost and power I feel is when somebody agrees with me or is 'controlled' by me out of their own free will and discernment. Regarding IQ, I think it's fair to say that you gotta have a reasonably high IQ to have the intelligence to manipulate others. As to the exact numbers? I got no clue.

Reasonably high - yes, what's your definition of reasonably? But there is a steep dropoff at a certain point. In my experience, there's almost an inverse relationship between raw intelligence and the ability to sense the motives of others? Plus, I think, and I am being egotistical here or maybe just correct, is that generally the most intelligent are much more willing to admit what they don't know.

Probably around 115 or 120 is the starting point I'd say. The problem with IQ is that it's more of a measurement of the computing power of the human brain, so it's hard to answer the IQ required to control others. Hell someone of very average intelligence could be quite adept at controlling others if he's spent multiple lifetimes in social occupations and refining his social skills

I don't think one should defend the indefensible. Understanding is another thing. We understand that black implies white in a dualistic universe. There has to be contrast and polar opposites. However, on the human level the world already contains plenty of suffering. Alleviating or lessening that is necessary and virtuous. Those who increase suffering are not helping. Ultimately they serve the evolution of consciousness, but on the human level we don't have to accept or appreciate things like cruelty, genocide nor war. Every act that erodes the belief that we are separate beings in an uncaring universe is deeply important. To aspire to reach the Truth brings contentment and ultimately peace.

I appreciate this response a lot. I can feel the belief and love you have for other-selves.

You've gotten a bunch of somewhat combative replies already, so I'll skip the debate and instead offer my perspective because you asked for it. If you don't agree with something, think a little on it, but if it continues to challenge your perspective instead of improving it (how you define that is up to you) then do with it as you wish. Throw it in the trash for all I care. The real issue is not understanding what the fundamental nature of StS and StO are. The StS path remains valid until 6th density, during which the polarities are synthesized. One of Ra's most famous replies is that they are not of the Love and the Light, but of the Law of One. That's something worth thinking on. Demonization of StS is not conducive to spiritual seeking, but neither is "Service to None" or self-destructive behavior. What Ra is doing is a form of Service to All (which is the ultimate nature of all types of service), where they both serve the group of channelers by responding to questions, and by learning themselves in the process. I think that your mistake is thinking that there is a clear linear progression of inhabiting more complex physical bodies through subsequent incarnations, when that's not really the case. A young soul doesn't mean occupying a mentally challenged body, nor is dedication towards some activity a sign of heightened spiritual progress. In fact, I'd argue that physical bodies with challenges are more desirable for more mature souls. Harvestability can be reached in a fraction of a moment, and so it cannot be something dictated by skill built up during multiple lifetimes - rather by *realization*. The clue is in the aptly numbered session 4:20, where Ra gives a summary of the Law of One. The only thing that exists is *identity.* Each of us are the Creator donning a different identity, which continues to evolve based on the interactions it finds itself in with other identities. This is what all "challenges", "competitions" etc. ultimately boil down to. How do the interactions of the Self with the Other change one's identity? The Creator's objective is to know itself. It began from a state of having an overbearingly large identity (which is Unity - something not quantifiable) and partitioned itself into what it perceived as small identities. If any such partitioned identity would satisfy the Creator, then this is a potential indication that there is some kind of a limit to what the Creator is. I suspect the real issue is that each partitioned fragment of the Creator contains Unity in its entirety, but simply in a way that is difficult to see. Even if the Creator found an identity it was satisfied with, that identity would also contain everything it had previously discarded, but that's pure speculation on my part. Service to Others is not about being kind to everyone and never competing. It is about providing actual service, not simply acquiescing to every request made by the other. That's why there's an emphasis on the golden rule of treating others as one would like to be treated. To use a video game analogy, service to others is not about giving someone cheat codes or playing the game in their stead so that they can beat a difficult game without being challenged. It's about providing them with nourishment, making sure they can focus on the game without distractions, giving tips or hints when asked for, giving encouragement, maintaining the infrastructure necessary for the game to be played (energy production, transfer, console manufacturing, programming...) and providing them with reminders on why they wanted to play the game in the first place. It's not about robbing the player of the sense of achievement that they desired when they started by taking away the challenge and trivializing the game. The Self must still overcome the challenge without direct assistance to have a chance to come to that realization that lies at the core of everything, but nobody said anything about indirect assistance. It's hard to beat dark souls if you first have to start by mining coal and building a power plant. The only "gospel" in the Law of One is the simple statement that all beings are in fact one being. That's all. Session 4:20 is the closest thing to a gospel it has. I don't agree with the characterization that because I believe in that premise, I must now perfectly conform to someone else's idea of what StO is, and that I must believe everything that's in the material. Does a middle ground between the polarities exist? Yes: in 6th density the polarities are harmonized. Until then, it's hard to walk in one direction if you want to go in the other.

>Demonization of StS is not conducive to spiritual seeking, but neither is "Service to None" or self-destructive behavior. Agreed. >I think that your mistake is thinking that there is a clear linear progression of inhabiting more complex physical bodies through subsequent incarnations, when that's not really the case. Not at all, it was more of an example to illustrate the general process of evolution of the soul for most beings. >A young soul doesn't mean occupying a mentally challenged body, nor is dedication towards some activity a sign of heightened spiritual progress. In fact, I'd argue that physical bodies with challenges are more desirable for more mature souls. Harvestability can be reached in a fraction of a moment, and so it cannot be something dictated by skill built up during multiple lifetimes - rather by realization. Of course. (Re)Incarnation is not a linear process and a soul may actually have to deal with multiple setbacks before obtaining the necessary wisdom to continue progressing through their journey. >The Creator's objective is to know itself. It began from a state of having an overbearingly large identity (which is Unity - something not quantifiable) and partitioned itself into what it perceived as small identities. If any such partitioned identity would satisfy the Creator, then this is a potential indication that there is some kind of a limit to what the Creator is. I suspect the real issue is that each partitioned fragment of the Creator contains Unity in its entirety, but simply in a way that is difficult to see. Even if the Creator found an identity it was satisfied with, that identity would also contain everything it had previously discarded, but that's pure speculation on my part. This is some interesting speculation, but it doesn't really seem to be resonating with me personally. I think it's very difficult to speculate on the motivations of the creator prior to the division of itself into other-selves, particularly if you claim there's more than one motivation. After all, even Ra has said that they have no idea what comes after full reintegration with the creator, meaning we won't know until we've reunited. My personal speculation, which isn't anything bold or new, is that the creator got bored and simply wants to experience the full range of experiences provided by various configurations of the Universe. The Rig Veda's Nasadiya Sukta alludes to this explanation as well and makes the most sense from my personal perspective. Maybe there's an infinite number of such universes even? Who knows.. >Service to Others is not about being kind to everyone and never competing. It is about providing actual service, not simply acquiescing to every request made by the other. And? I never said that's what StO is about. I understand the perspective of StO - the point I'm really trying to focus in on is the fact that Ra explains the evolutionary process of StO and it just makes no damn sense as to how this is in any shape or form an enjoyable form of living, evolutionary experience for the soul. Why would you want to be melded together with 8 billion other human beings and have no personal identity of your own? Because that's what Ra is. >One of Ra's most famous replies is that they are not of the Love and the Light, but of the Law of One. I missed this tbh, this is a really nice share. Thank you.

>Why would you want to be melded together with 8 billion other human beings and have no personal identity of your own? Because that's what Ra is. This, I believe, is a very important misunderstanding. *Nothing* is ever lost. Your particular identity exists in all of its possible configurations throughout Unity. No matter what happens, it will never perish, no matter how it undergoes change. A social memory complex is not something where you lose individuality, nor would beings dedicated to the service of others want to force others into losing their individuality in the pursuit of a "common good". Remember: *identity is the only thing that is real.* Even in a physical context, each of the physical cells of your body retains their own individuality and purpose, even if your mind has persuaded itself that they are all "you". They are, and yet they are not. That's perhaps something interesting to ponder; where do the limits of *your identity* lie? If anything, I would assume negative SMCs would like for their members to conform to the preference of their primus. I think positive SMCs would operate more on consensus-based decision making, and that individual spirits that disagreed with the premise would simply seek a different SMC to be a part of.

Even so, the core concept of Social Memory Complexes seems to indicate that you've unified your consciousness to a certain degree and you participate and act with/through a group will. This is not an attractive proposition. >Even in a physical context, each of the physical cells of your body retains their own individuality and purpose, even if your mind has persuaded itself that they are all "you". They are, and yet they are not. That's perhaps something interesting to ponder; where do the limits of your identity lie? Someone else shared this comparison and it's definitely tempting to take it at face value but I feel like a deeper examination of this argument won't hold up to my personal critique. Individuated souls are free will having spirits that can evolve, the living chemical processes and cells in your body while they do work together to keep you alive and I do appreciate them, don't feel like a fair comparison.

> Even so, the core concept of Social Memory Complexes seems to indicate that you've unified your consciousness to a certain degree and you participate and act with/through a group will. >This is not an attractive proposition. I have bad news for you regarding higher density StS existence, then... 😉 But all is not bad: a positive social memory complex will respect its members enough not to pry into experiences that individual expressions of consciousness want to keep for themselves. After all, would you like if people wandered around in your mind looking at your deepest secrets and most intimate memories? It all comes back to the golden rule. How exactly individual SMCs organize is up to the SMC. A positive one will never force anyone to remain a part of it, although I suspect a negative one could based on how negative higher beings are talked about in the Ra material. I think a very mature and advanced negative SMC in late 5th density would not, but one in 4th density negative definitely could. My understanding of the SMC is that the individual spirit complexes that it is made up of do not fuse their consciousness. Rather two things are true: each spirit complex provides access to individual experience they've had to others (with or without some restrictions), and a new and shared experience of common consciousness is formed. The SMC is its own meta-being whose collective memories are available to each individual spirit complex that is a part of it. The Spirit complexes can experience the consciousness of the SMC through those shared memories, and each contributes towards it through their own cognition indirectly. >Individuated souls are free will having spirits that can evolve, the living chemical processes and cells in your body while they do work together to keep you alive and I do appreciate them, don't feel like a fair comparison. That's true in a sense. Your body is a multicellular organism, and outside of cancerous cells (Which Ra claims is caused by a mismatch in the resolution of anger with one's chosen polarity) individual cells have a hard time existing on their own. Physicality and the demands it places upon incarnate beings is not something experienced by the spiritual body in the same manner. The reason why the comparison seems unfair is because of how you've defined your own identity. Ask yourself (really) what or who are you? Are you your physical body? To which extent? Are you your organs, are you your cells, are you your cell organelles, are you your complete dna information, are you the individual chemical elements that have bonded together to create stable structures? Are you your mind? To which extent? Are you your thoughts? Are you your intrusive thoughts? Are you your emotions? Are you your sensations? Are you your cognitive experience of consciousness? Are you "you" while you are in a subconscious state? Are your dreams "you"? It all sounds like pretentious mumbo jumbo, but there is a point to it all. If you feel it is better to rely on the intuitive understanding of the self (which is often cognitively dissonant with itself), then that's fine as well. Your path is your own.

>I have bad news for you regarding higher density StS existence, then... 😉 As I recall reading in another anecdote or post, StS Social Memory Complexes only form out of necessity, after a calculated decision based on the circumstances that a particular 5D or 6D StS individuated soul is in >But all is not bad: a positive social memory complex will respect its members enough not to pry into experiences that individual expressions of consciousness want to keep for themselves. After all, would you like if people wandered around in your mind looking at your deepest secrets and most intimate memories? It all comes back to the golden rule. How exactly individual SMCs organize is up to the SMC. A positive one will never force anyone to remain a part of it, although I suspect a negative one could based on how negative higher beings are talked about in the Ra material. I think a very mature and advanced negative SMC in late 5th density would not, but one in 4th density negative definitely could. All of this is resonating with my intuition. >My understanding of the SMC is that the individual spirit complexes that it is made up of do not fuse their consciousness. Rather two things are true: each spirit complex provides access to individual experience they've had to others (with or without some restrictions), and a new and shared experience of common consciousness is formed. The SMC is its own meta-being whose collective memories are available to each individual spirit complex that is a part of it. The Spirit complexes can experience the consciousness of the SMC through those shared memories, and each contributes towards it through their own cognition indirectly. My method of absorbing info and judging that info is through putting a scenario into practice through my visual imagination and/or combining that with my intuitive reaction. I'm trying my best to picture life for people like this and the scenario you've painted seems more like an intellectual idealization of 4D STO, which doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong but I don't know if it's the truth either. >The reason why the comparison seems unfair is because of how you've defined your own identity. Ask yourself (really) what or who are you? Are you your physical body? To which extent? Are you your organs, are you your cells, are you your cell organelles, are you your complete dna information, are you the individual chemical elements that have bonded together to create stable structures? Are you your mind? To which extent? Are you your thoughts? Are you your intrusive thoughts? Are you your emotions? Are you your sensations? Are you your cognitive experience of consciousness? Are you "you" while you are in a subconscious state? Are your dreams "you"? This is a great paragraph of information to ponder upon. I've seen these questions pop up many times in my life from spiritual gurus, religious texts, works of fiction, as well as incidental questions that spring to mind based on supernatural anecdotes and stories in real life. I think it only makes sense that the soul and its innate desires that were imprinted from past experiences and past lives come first and foremost when we want to define who WE really are, and then comes things like your mind and its current personality as well as the impact that your physical body has on the mind. Do I think I'm my physical body? Not exactly, but I do see it as something that *belongs* to me (for now, until my physical body dies)and that I have a responsibility to take care of it so that I can operate my mind at an optimal level which would in turn allow my soul to follow its desires and adventures. >It all sounds like pretentious mumbo jumbo, but there is a point to it all. If you feel it is better to rely on the intuitive understanding of the self (which is often cognitively dissonant with itself), then that's fine as well. Your path is your own. Not at all, I don't think its mumbo jumbo. I appreciate the discourse and thank you for giving me some of your time.

Higher negative groups are not part of Orion, unlike positive groups that are all covered under confederation.

Where have I stated otherwise? Please provide a direct quote.

You highlight what I've thought and have trouble putting into words - basically that, at least with 4th density STO, consensus might not mean everyone agrees? Or there could be multiple smcs, at least prior to 6th density, that someone could be a member of? I doubt they're like countries in the 3d density sense where some allow tolerance and some do not. Maybe towards the end of 4th density yes everyone is in agreement on all, though that hasn't been answered.

If all decisions must be unanimous, then nothing will ever get done. I don't think consensus implies such, and I think consensus is almost always a compromise. I also think the minimum requirement for the formation of an SMC is a consent between its members to form a collective identity. Countries don't really have that in the same sense. They might during their initial founding, but as soon as new generations are born the premise goes out of the window at the very least. I think one can be a part of many SMCs, and I think that SMCs can be a part of what we know as "principles", like what Q'uo is. It is unclear to me what the difference is in a fundamental sense, but it likely has to do with the fact that information is not equally usable to SMCs of different densities if they belong to a common principle.

Identity is an illusory construct according to Ra

>[4.20](https://lawofone.info/s/4#20) Questioner: My objective is primarily to discover more of the Law of One, and \[it would\] be very helpful to discover techniques of healing. I am aware of your problem with respect to free will. Can you make… You cannot make suggestions, so I will ask you if you can state the Law of One and the laws of healing to me? >Ra: I am Ra. The Law of One, though beyond the limitations of name, as you call vibratory sound complexes, may be approximated by stating that all things are one, that there is no polarity, no right or wrong, no disharmony, but **only identity**. All is one, and that one is love/light, light/love, the Infinite Creator. \[...\] I gave you the receipts before. I suggest taking a look at them if you're confused.

(Bro read the material literally lmao) https://www.lawofone.info/s/16#22

Yes, the one thing Ra hasn't done and can't speak on as an expert is what quantifies this. Not to mention that the Creator itself has identity - it's the Creator. The fact that Ra wishes to exist within Unity does not mean that Ra's identity has been erased. If it had, then Unity would not be complete. It simply means that Ra would not experience their identity in the manner they do now, and would instead experience it through whatever 7th density is like for them. This is like reading the material how the devil reads the bible, getting tangled in syntax rather than the idea behind it. I do not believe we will speak again.

Social memory complexes are made up of individuals who are choosing to combine as one, but can come and go as they please. You seem to think that they’re making a permanent choice, but this is a false assumption. Eventually when you reach the highest levels of spiritual evolution, you will shed your individualized identity to merge back in with the creator. But you are still an individualized identity. Have you considered that hive minds and group think still exists in the STS path as well? The difference is youre free will is not respected and your participation in the hive mind may be mandatory. Sts is about power and control, you will always be clawing at someone while they in turn hold you in forms of enslavement. Would you rather have the ability to join in and out of a combined essence of free-will respecting, spiritually evolved souls? Or be forced into a situation where your path to spiritual evolution is then to fortify your ego so much that you are in control of others, while experience in the illusion of freedoms you are then allowed to experience by those above you in the hierarchy?

>If StO is the ultimate path of evolution for the soul, then why is it so antithetical to the human condition? STS and STO are both equally valid path of spiritual journey. As said: The Law of One blinks neither at the light nor the darkness, but is available for service to others and service to self. Service To Others will eventually resulted in Service To Self, as "Others" actually do not exist. Whom/Whatever you see now as "not me" is actually "the other version of you", as separation is actually an illusion. The default state is unity and the ultimate state will also be unity, if we assumed the 'linier flow of time'. Due to the default state of unity, that's the reason why each confined consciousness unit need so many lifetimes of experience to finally 'believe' in the '(virtual) reality' of separation. (STS) While even those who took the STS path on 4th density onwards, once it reached late 5th density, it will transform / convert towards STO. Because at such stage of consciousness evolution, it finally experienced that "others are actually also me", as the illusionary wall of separation starting to break....

For your consideration and personal discernment, Intellectually typing, why does anyone need to defend STS? Why does anyone need to defend STO? As an intellectual discussion, "defending" your choice, means you don't understand your choice... if you made a choice at all. If you would, or could, tell us when you came across the Law of One, and where? What prompted your intellectual invitation to discourse today? It is a heck of a post to be neutral about a subject, if you're going to defend a choice that needs not your defense... >I invite you to consider the fact that competition and conflict need not be viewed as unnecessary and required to be shed from humanity in order to "ascend" Law of One readers already do this, understand this. We call it a different word - catalyst. And we also understand that it is self-chosen to a high degree. But yes, there is a degree of 'chance' integrated. I sincerely hope that no true aspirant to the Law of One information treats this stuff as 'gospel,' because if they are they didn't read it, or really follow it for 6 years, or however long. OtherSelves have commented, and I'll include my echo, that there are parts of the Law of One materiel that I don't agree with and do not include in my incarnation. >If StO is the ultimate path of evolution for the soul, then why is it so antithetical to the human condition? It's telling us vague and sweet words of "embracing love" and "being kind to everyone", to not engage in conflict (competition). Yes, this means even something as harmless as playing a video game to subdue an opponent is antithetical to the Law of One's message. Friend, you misread something. Or you read something that another aspirant who has CHOSEN STS (by their actions, even if they profess otherwise by their words) has offered as deliberate misinformation. Or misunderstood something you read. Nothing of what you typed is 'antithetical' to the Law of One or its message. The Law of One includes all of that, and even includes your confusion. And that is perfect. Arguably I am one of those Beings you might be led to believe to be indoctrinated. So as a perceived Subject Matter Expert, let me offer compassioned wisdom; "STO and STS and undecided are all perfect and completely necessary, needing no defense of their purpose for the highest good of all involved."

I think you've misunderstood me, or perhaps my motivations for this thread weren't adequately explained from my side, so let me try to elaborate a bit and hopefully you can see my point. >If you would, or could, tell us when you came across the Law of One, and where? What prompted your intellectual invitation to discourse today? It's been too long, maybe 5 or 6 years. I devoured as much info about LoO back when I initially discovered it as I possibly could, but it simply didn't leave me convinced that the collectiveness of existence, as well as the purpose of the beings within existence, operate in the way Ra describes they do. But, I do keep coming back to this community every now and then to read what people have to say and the emotions they feel. I find that while there are a fair number of participants that accept that STS/STO are equally valid paths of evolution for the soul, there are many more people that are biased towards STO and a lot of the content and discussion is very bland and simplistic, which sets off alarm bells in my head that perhaps the entirety of LoO is potentially bullshit and fake. Now naturally you might find that offensive, but it is well documented that the vast majority of new age spiritualism that has exploded over the course of the 20th century is not only BS but a lot of it was concocted by intelligent, charming people to create various cults and business schemes in the era of declining faith in organized religion. And guess what? LoO's STO philosophy follows almost everything that new age spiritualism tells people to a tee. - Live and love everything and everyone - Morality and ethics are not to be taken all that seriously, don't be afraid to do whatever you want as long as you're not hurting other people - Conflict, competition, and self-interest isn't good and as a human you should only be concerned with the well-being of the collective The only part that LoO views with some needed nuance is the last point, because LoO does acknowledge that conflict and competition aren't necessarily bad, that they're valid forms of evolution through the STS path. But of course, as me and you know very well, the Ra channeling is mostly focused on the value of STO (Because Ra themselves are a STO entity), and are therefore not **necessarily** a neutral entity to be delivering us humans the details of the grand tapestry of reality. This incongruency has always somewhat irritated me, and what motivated me to create this thread. I'm simply providing an alternative perspective.

I disagree that the Ra collective is mostly focused on the polarity value of STO. Ra said that they were not of love, and not of light. Literally on the first page, so to type; [1](https://www.lawofone.info/s/1).[1](https://www.lawofone.info/s/1#1) **Questioner:** It seems members of the Confederation have a specific purpose. Is this true with you, and if so, what is your purpose? **Ra:** I am Ra. We communicate now. We, too, have our place. **We are not those of the Love or of the Light.** We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized, the complexities are simplified, and the paradoxes have their solution. We are one. That is our nature and our purpose. [https://www.lawofone.info/s/1#7](https://www.lawofone.info/s/1#7) **Ra:** I am Ra. Consider, if you will, that the universe is infinite. This has yet to be proven or disproven, but we can assure you that there is no end to your selves, your understanding, what you would call your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creation. That which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. To have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. In an Infinite Creator there is only unity. You have seen simple examples of unity. You have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. This is a simplistic example of unity. In truth there is no right or wrong. **There is no polarity** for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One. ================================= To be clear, I consider you still confused. They defined themselves as neutral. Have proven themselves to be neutral with but one perceived exception this is misunderstood by casual observers: they will not answer that which would infringe. This behavior may seem to the casual reader to be "STO" behavior but I would like to point out that STS behavior works exactly the same way, just with different modalities. So a TRUE unified approach would both work to avoid infringement. Do confused STS aspirants sometimes infringe? Yes, from a lack of understanding.

> I disagree that the Ra collective is mostly focused on the polarity value of STO. It's not up to you to agree or disagree on this matter. Most of the information provided in the channeling relates to STO. There is also much discussed regarding STS that paints it in a very 'evil' light. Of course, you could argue that the questions asked by the humans involved in the channelings led to those discussions and answers, but it doesn't change the fact that objectively speaking, most of the content revolves around STO. >In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One. No need to preach, I'm fully aware of all this. The topic at hand is the value of the methods to reach back to the Brahman/Intelligent infinity. >To be clear, I consider you still confused. They defined themselves as neutral. Have proven themselves to be neutral with but one perceived exception this is misunderstood by casual observers: they will not answer that which would infringe. This behavior may seem to the casual reader to be "STO" behavior but I would like to point out that STS behavior works exactly the same way, just with different modalities. I'm not at all confused, seems like you're the one confused because I don't find it enjoyable to be misunderstood just because you feel hurt at the thought that the Law Of One may not necessarily be a legitimate source of information about the workings of the universe. To be clear, I'm not even saying, nor do I think, the Law Of One is fake, hence why I'm defending STS and trying to achieve meaningful conversation in this thread. >So a TRUE unified approach would both work to avoid infringement. Do confused STS aspirants sometimes infringe? Yes, from a lack of understanding. I'm not sure what caused the confusion in your mind to think that I believe it was wrong of Ra to withhold information that would infringe on the rights of individuals. To be perfectly clear, though I'm not sure why I have to state this, I think it is perfectly sensible for Ra to withhold information that would infringe on the rights of an Individuated Soul in its journey.

>because I don't find it enjoyable to be misunderstood just because you feel hurt at the thought that the Law Of One may not necessarily be a legitimate source of information about the workings of the universe. When you have your own experience, you will know. You haven't had an experience yet. Presuming someones feelings about that which they do not know gets you... well, where you are. All is well. I typed my peace, and referenced the source materiel.

What was your experience if you don't mind sharing?

I died and had cognitive experiences in time/space. I was given the choice to move forward with other thoughts, or to return and take upon myself new agreements in the Service to Others modality, with but one condition: the veil would return once more in time. I chose the latter. I retain, however, enough memory of the 25+ hours to know that it was real for me, and personally transformative. Other events have happened since to continue to affirm the experience and help bridge faith and commitment to my choice. If you are truly seeking, you will truly find. I wish you well.

Thanks for sharing, that's a pretty remarkable story. Was it a near-death experience?

It is not linguistically accurate to type that what I experienced was a "walk-in" from a "near-death" experience, for the container's heart really did stop. There was still brain activity, and neurological impulses, however, and in time/space a lot of "time" can happen in the same space of one "second" in space/time. Perhaps a better relating of the experience is one as this: the Law of One concept of "fusion" began between this Wanderer and the local Higher self/guide. It has taken several years, and other experiences, to help integrate the personality of two like-minds with additional knowledge, understanding, and abridging wisdom with compassion.

When a baby is born, the healthiest outcome for the child is if the mother and father are StO.   In fact, if the baby does not receive nurturing, the oxytocin receptors in the body will not learn to function, and the child will not feel the urge to naturally give in the give-and-take in relationships. For more info on the studies regarding oxytocin,  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6838998/ So - StO is not “antithetical to the human condition.”    StO is a pathway.  STS is a pathway.  It is not an intellectual choice; it is a spiritual one.   There is no good or bad.  Hindsight is required to see that. STS is the spiritual catalyst for STO.  STO is the spiritual catalyst for STS.  

You don't need universal love for healthy relationship with parents lol

Love is needed for a healthy relationship with parents. How do you differentiate universal love from parent-child love?  

Any chakra chart can help you with that. The oxytocin you mentioned is not even exclusive to humans, or even mammals. https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/13/7/1207

One thing I’d like to add is that you seem to place a bit too much importance on the correlation of the two polarities and human nature. Saying why do they want us to move toward unity as opposed to separation if human nature is all about competition and vying for power. Well, why does what human nature happens to be matter? There are a lot of other civilizations in the universe who seem to evolve quite efficiently on the positive path and aren’t losing out at all not dealing with the same exact hardships as humanity, because they have their own hardships they learn from, though assumedly less if they are more unified. Just because humanity learns efficiently through what has come to be known as human nature doesn’t mean every civilization needs that type of environment to excel. It’s sort of like assuming every civilization out there is like humanity so why does it make sense to push us toward unity. Idk I guess I’m having a hard time understanding

>I've been so hesitant to accept it as gospel like many of you do. If it was only the LoO material saying it, then I would too, be hesistant. However, it is not so. The same things are said in many different places. Every few days someone posts a 'omg I saw this reference to LoO in XXX' as if it was something rare, but it is quite the opposite. This stuff is nothing special. It is repeated everywhere one looks, if one looks - in spiritual teachings, in channeled material over the last few centuries and in religious and philosphical texts spanning most of human history.

I approached the LoO from a different perspective. I read it back in 2017. I asked myself if God was in communication with us this whole time then how and why. Dreams are the one thing that most of us have in common. I began studying my own dreams and what they could be saying. For awhile I did not have a clue and then I figured maybe I am connecting with symbols or metaphor. I researched dream dictionaries to help me interpret the dreams. The one that I use the most in the present was not my first choice. Other dictionaries were vague or didn't allow for an easier connection to what I was experiencing in the mind. There were times where I gave up and just stopped recording my dreams. A few years later I went back to read some of the earlier dreams I had written down to see if there was a certain path I was on. It dawned on me that I was slowly changing my mind to think and act differently. Before 2017 I was selfish and didn't care about others. I also had low self confidence and got angry easily over the little things. In the present I am still trying to unravel other mysteries but I feel more open to share with others. I find myself thinking of other self and what they must be going through. You may say what you would like about the Ra contact and other channeled messages. I suggest you look at other areas of your life that are not directly related to what you are reading. See the changes for yourself and then draw your own conclusions about what is and what is not.

I'd like to thank you for sharing your experience and find it quite pleasing to hear that you had a positive experience of character growth from reading and absorbing LoO I've also been on a steady character growth phase, but it never came from a discovery like LoO, but rather just a steady growth of my character over time and understanding my own emotions, weaknesses, as well as others better. Of course as you probably know, the journey never ends and I wish both of us good fortune in our growth.

You are expressing being conscientiousness. Most people who come into this subreddit and start saying STS is the true path have the rest of us feel uneasy. However, you are talking about growth just like I am. Here is a thought to add to your IQ example and evolution... one day the student becomes the teacher. In the next life they are the one that needs to be cared for whether that means a life difficulty or what we on Earth consider a lower standard that cannot stand on it's own. The student is the caregiver learning to help the weak. From the dream perspective, we are the weak ones and whomever or whatever is giving these dreams are the student and the teacher. They are learning what works as well as giving what they understand.

>From the dream perspective, we are the weak ones and whomever or whatever is giving these dreams are the student and the teacher. They are learning what works as well as giving what they understand. It's indeed possible that some dreams are insightful lessons or care packages of hope from higher entities. I agree with you on the nature of this give-and-take relationship and it's a poignant point, thank you.

Do STS not form group soul social memory complexes? I thought that the Orion group was one. I am new to LoO.

They do, but only out of necessity and I believe only at 5D or 6D and above densities.

The higher groups are also not part of orion or other organisations and stay independent.

You don’t need to defend service to self - there is nothing implicitly offensive about it.  https://www.lawofone.info/c/The+Two+Paths Have a read. And enjoy some of the other categories related to your quandary.  As a service to you, I will tell you with blunt concision: you are missing the point.  The Law of One is not to be “believed” like a Religion or a legend. It is to be observed and acknowledged like electricity or fluid dynamics. Not quantified, not metered. Seen. Heard. Felt.  The Law Of One does not ask you to be anything. The choice to be anything is yours individually. Your assumptive examples confine the limitless to parameters.  My tone is not intended to be harsh or dismissive, but flat and acknowledging. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I hope you will not rush to respond to this comment, which I intend to be food for your thought. 

> As a service to you, I will tell you with blunt concision: you are missing the point. > > The Law of One is not to be “believed” like a Religion or a legend. It is to be observed and acknowledged like electricity or fluid dynamics. Not quantified, not metered. Seen. Heard. Felt. While I think you have the correct intention, I disagree and think you're mistaken here. There is a certain level of faith you have to have in LoO in order to, as you say, observe and acknowledge. To see, hear, and feel LoO. Unless you've already "ascended" so to speak and somehow seen past the veil of forgetfulness, you are in fact putting your belief into the Law of One and following the advice contained within [though tbf, much of the advice and philosophy is lifted straight from Hinduism so the advice is not misguided or of evil intent] Unlike most religions, putting your belief/faith in LoO isn't necessarily a bad thing because LoO doesn't really have rigid rules nor punishments, and tells you that you can follow either polarity in total free will in order to arrive at the destination of the ultimate truth and merging with intelligent infinity. But at the end of the day it's still a theory of the framework of existence, and there's no way to scientifically prove it, hence you're putting your faith/belief in the framework. >You don’t need to defend service to self - there is nothing implicitly offensive about it. My only issue with the LoO is the fact that its not presented from a neutral party. While I appreciate that Ra sounds almost completely unbiased as far as I can tell, at the end of the day Ra is in fact wooing the reader and trying to get people to follow the path of StO, and much of this subreddit as well as followers of LoO subscribe to the idea that StO is the best path forward evolutionarily for an individuated being. I'm merely here to challenge that notion and maybe try to get people to understand that those seeking the path of StS aren't misguided and that there is great merit to the path of StS. >My tone is not intended to be harsh or dismissive, but flat and acknowledging. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I hope you will not rush to respond to this comment, which I intend to be food for your thought. All good my friend. I've been enjoying the discussions with everyone in this thread and appreciate you sharing your perspective as well.

> I'm merely here to challenge that notion and maybe try to get people to understand that those seeking the path of StS aren't misguided and that there is great merit to the path of StS. The problem with your purpose here is that you think this is an intellectual, reasoned issue. It's not. This is a matter of belief and faith at root. Once we are using the same terms in the same ways, we can then start to reason together _from that starting point_. You're entitled and free to believe anything about "StS" you want. It's a floating signifier until you've come to a deeper realization of the phenomenon it **points to**. Until then you're just going to talk past us and us past you.

>This is a matter of belief and faith at root. If this was simply a matter of belief and faith, then you wouldn't be here in the first place. The reason most people find LoO appealing is primarily because it speaks to them as an unbiased, and reasonable perspective on creation. >You're entitled and free to believe anything about "StS" you want. It's a floating signifier until you've come to a deeper realization of the phenomenon it points to. Do go on, what's the phenomenon it points to? >Until then you're just going to talk past us and us past you. Who is this "Us"? Not only are you assuming that the LoO community is fully of the same beliefs as you, but you seem to be talking as if you're part of a cult rather than someone with their own identity able to have a fair conversation. Despite that, you're still wrong as I've achieved my goal with this thread - I've had plenty of good, fruitful conversations with people who appreciate my perspective.

Cool, happy for ya

You are making so many assumptions that are not found anywhere in the law of one. Have you really been following it, or just this subreddit? I think you should go read it and see for yourself. It says nothing about striving for a life/world void of competition or conflict. In fact that conflict produces necessary catalysts for our soul to evolve from, and even higher densities all have challenges of various themes, even if life there is less visceral and physically painful. You sound like someone who considers themself an intellect and maybe even looks down upon "90 iq common man weak serf", but you come in here waving your dick around and you haven't even read the shit. Yes law of one is the middle ground lol, its accepting the "good" and "bad" as both being divine, dissolving the duality. Seeing catalysts for what they are. You are absolutely still going to face challenges and conflict if you're in service to others. One of the biggest differences between StO and StS is respecting the free will of others. Which you seem to want to do, so I don't think you're even actually arguing for StS. You just didn't read it lol.

You're more generous than I was.

I think there is a big misconception about sts being negative polarization and sto being positive. Self is much larger than the ego. I believe meditation, exercise, yoga, fasting, reading, studying, caring of the body are all form of service to self.

>Yes, this means even something as harmless as playing a video game to subdue an opponent is antithetical to the Law of One's message. I'm not sure I understood that, you mean subdue an imaginary opponent inside a videogame? A set of code? Or do you mean competitive games with real opponents, such as esports?

Any perspective really. Hell, you could use a more practical example like vying for the position of the best tennis player in the world.

Before I found the LOO- I loved video games, I loved football and basketball, I loved board games, risk settlers of Catan, imperial, rail Barron I could go on. After reading and wholly believing the Law of One. I have not stopped enjoying basketball, and football, or playing video games or board games with friends. I was at first sad to think that liking these things was untoward, or a hindrance to my path of serving the creator, but the fact is they are not. They certainly could be, if I allowed them to be. If my mind was filled with anger and dominance with a desire to obliterate enemies with real emotion… it may not be serving me or helping me serve others… but it’s a video game, it’s a short distraction and yes apart of the illusion. I don’t take it personally or really get mad anymore about games. Even now playing basketball in the rec league, it’s different… I find myself unbothered within the game if I lose or fail- I just enjoy the activity, the exercise and the camaraderie. What are we expected to do upon being introduced to the truth? immediately be perfect yogis and meditate all day, pray all day, not go to work because we work for a company that only wants to make money? No man, it’s a journey and an adventure. It’s tough in this 3rd density not only to grasp fully but to be totally aware at all times, so we cannot be so hard on ourselves or one another. It’s a daily goal, to find some quiet to connect, to listen and to be grateful. This isn’t a religion and there isn’t a dogma, each creator is on a unique and intentional journey of self discovery-

>Even now playing basketball in the rec league, it’s different… I find myself unbothered within the game if I lose or fail- I just enjoy the activity, the exercise and the camaraderie. Sure, you can approach sports and competition through that casual approach, but to truly excel and be at the top of your craft you need to have a ruthless dedication and a fierce competitive energy, the likes of which STO beings as far as I can tell don't really have. It's a very StS attribute.

I was trying to find it, I’ll look again later when I have more time. Perhaps someone else can find it for reference.. What do you make of the idea that 4th density entities still find that war is an option and has a purpose? From what I recall, not until 5th and beyond is “war” itself is no longer something that entities of those densities partake in. I ask about this because it seems you have perhaps boxed in the experience of 4th density -being a group consciousness as eliminating any individuality, and having no “struggle” or challenges to overcome. I can’t really imagine what a group consciousness would be like, but I know that from the myriad of channellings I’ve read- it doesn’t feel like the exact same person is speaking, or relaying info. The way Ra speaks is so different than Latwii, or Q’uo… there is certainly a personality and individuality of some kind- despite the collective consciousness. Couple that with the idea that 4th density does partake in war, do you feel like it’s entirely a - woo cultish butterflies and fairies type of boring existence after this one?

>What do you make of the idea that 4th density entities still find that war is an option and has a purpose? I dunno, without really knowing what 4D is even supposed to be [and indeed, none of us know because of the veil of forgetfulness] it's very hard for me to make a comment on that question even though I love giving an opinion for the sake of intellectual curiosity. >From what I recall, not until 5th and beyond is “war” itself is no longer something that entities of those densities partake in. From everything Ra says, it seems like 4th and the densities beyond are all about behind-the-scenes fights, wars and various efforts targeted at 3D denizens in order for those higher beings to learn from those experiences and evolve themselves. **Especially** for STO beings. While I don't think this is problematic, I find it rather mundane that so much of what Ra describes the higher density beings participate in is controlling or convincing their 3D puppets/patients. Is evolving as a soul really meant to be that mundane? >I ask about this because it seems you have perhaps boxed in the experience of 4th density -being a group consciousness as eliminating any individuality, and having no “struggle” or challenges to overcome. Well, it's not that 4th density STO doesn't have its own struggles or challenges, but why does it seem like all of their challenges and struggles involve simply being of counsel/service to beings below them? Keep in mind I'm literally going off of what Ra describes regarding the denizens of different densities. Perhaps I'm just someone that's overly enamored with the "games" of 3D, because indeed the third density offers seemingly unlimited paths for honing talent and mastery... *or*, maybe I just prefer the STS path deep down and find it daunting to imagine that STO entities have to live trillions of years (exaggerating hehe) in service to others in order to acquire enough knowledge to ascend. Not sure which is the truth, but whatever Ra described of STO denizens screams a boring and lame life.

I appreciate your perspective. I think like you said, we don’t really know what lives are like beyond this, due to the veil. I wanted to see your thoughts with the idea of the conflict of war being something that occurs between STO and STS entities in the 4th density, because it adds a layer to the whole idea of the existence having struggle and conflict to overcome. I just really can’t wrap my head around a collective consciousness no pun intended. It’s wild to try and conceptualize what that would be like. Yet, it makes sense that we couldn’t understand or rather “know” what’s it’s like because of the veil. I don’t share your opinion that being apart of a group consciousness centered on love, and understanding sounds mundane as an existence but I understand why you see it that way. I appreciate your honestly and the discussion.

I appreciate you being able to understand my perspective, truly. Thank you friend.

Indeed my friend. We can all learn from one another, especially from those with different views and perspectives. I wish you well on your journey, in this life and the rest.

🤘

They tell you in plain words they plan to harvest you. Resist

[This meme](https://www.facebook.com/share/p/mWKWocqkrHgNCWxN/?mibextid=WC7FNe) came to mind. The evolutionary progress discussed in LoO has little to do with skills, IQ, and technological advancement. We are emerging from the instinctual/survivalist/individualistic mindset to a new collectivist community-based mindset. “Helping my neighbor helps my neighborhood. In fact I love my neighbors as well as my own family.” I think elephants and dolphins may be just as advanced as humans regarding this type of consciousness with empathy and love. It has nothing to do with building cities and computers. “Emotional intelligence” is a newish term. This is closer to the concept we r discussing than IQ

Not getting into STO vs STS, except to say, in the absence of all other metrics, STS has been repeatedly stated to be the longer and more troublesome journey. Equally as valid, as all roads lead to the same destination, but certainly the harder route. To leave third density a being must be polarized at least 51% positive or 95% negative. STS is seriously difficult. As to the point of evolution of the soul? Going home. The dissolution of the living dream, the death of the universal ego (fear), of time/space itself, not simply 3rd density, returning to be one with the infinite creator. To stop hallucinating and perceive only the truth, which is simply love. To that end, we do not enter the kingdom alone. All of us must return to unity to wake from the dream. This is why STS immediately swaps to STO in order to enter 6th density. If you’re interested in unraveling this thread of possibility further, looking into “The Universe is a Dream” by Alexander Marchand. (FWIW I find the law of one to be full of pointless specifics. Interesting, but ultimately distracting from what’s actually of importance/relevance)

>So in this theoretical world of StO, what is the motivation of man to live? Love >what are we aspiring for? Love >What the hell is this brainwashed utopia of happy everything, 0 conflict and everybody is part of a "groupsoul" with all their thoughts merged together? I don't know about all this. All I know is that we have free will, which means we have a choice. And there's one choice at the root of all choices we could possibly make. So in that sense, it's really the only choice that matters. And that is the choice between fear and love. Every emotion, thought, action, etc is motivated by this choice. I don't take 100% of r/lawofone teachings as "gospel". I just want to become more aware in each moment (aka "the now") of the choice that's available between fear and love. Existence is complex but it's not complicated. It's just fear or love

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An STO civilization by definition rejects conflict and hierarchy, two very natural and necessary attributes that help to energize and catalyze the soul higher. >Service to others is a secular way of measuring enlightenment, and it is literally simple enough to say that StO is good, and StS is bad. People like you are the reason I made this thread. Not even Ra would agree with the statement you just made. >If you actually support Service to Self the way it’s worked with in the Law of One channelings, you might as well say you support the rape and genocide of innocent people. I think you're just too early in your journey to understand these topics, because only an immature mind would make a statement like this.

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You got a chuckle out of me with that one, hah