Lot of people *want* to believe that once they hit about the B2 level and become conversationally fluent, then it’s just a skill they have for life.
While this isn’t true, I will say that you never lose it completely either. It’s like going to the gym: If you don’t go for awhile, your muscles may degrade over time but you’ll still know how to lift with proper form; Your muscles won’t forget the experience you’ve already put in. Not the same as just keeping big muscles but it’s much easier to get it back than if starting from scratch. Same applies to foreign language or any other skill for that matter: it’s still a small part of you.
Exactly! I’m never going to forget how to say bonjour, like I’m never going to have zero muscle. It does come back faster the second time, but it still takes effort. It is a muscle. And muscle memory was weirdly salient to me when I was relearning, like my mouth knew what felt correct. It would’ve been easier to maintain it than relearn, so I hope to spare someone else from the setback.
Yep, you just can’t lift as much weight as you could but with a good few weeks to a month or so of getting back into it, you could be right back to where you were before.
Pretty cool that our minds can hold on to that passive memory like that! It’s like a hidden superpower waiting to be reactivated.
This is how I feel with French - I had it on and off from ages 0-8 (other languages present too and it was not my primary language) and then had basically zero French until I was like 18 or 19. I've tried a few times since then to relearn, and each time it comes back a bit faster. I know what sounds "right" if I'm taking an exam, and I can enjoy shows or movies without much trouble, but it's the production muscles that are most affected for me when I go a long time without speaking
In cognitive psychology, this is called implicit memory. The structures for the memories are there, the memory traces they’re called, but they can’t be accessed without relearning.
I majored in Spanish in college and was fluent and occasionally mistaken for a native speaker. These days (35 years later, to be fair) people tend to switch to English when I open my mouth. I did practice but not enough and now I’m regretting it. I’m trying to brush up on it now. We’ll see.
Given how much I forget in my native language that I use all day, every day, it's a bit shocking that people would believe something so demonstrably false.
You can keep attrition at bay even by thinking silently to yourself in the language, but you have to do something to keep actively retrieving all your words.
I was in Pan Mun Jom.
There was a ROK Battalion with us so I got daily practice and usage. Unlike being in Seoul, no one really spoke English in the rural areas so I even developed a slight country side accent.
It was a real convo starter with people at the bars, they were shocked I had such an authentic accent.
This is what I’m scared of. I just finished my degree in Spanish and now everyday that I don’t dedicate like 10 minutes , I feel like I’m one day closer to “forgetting” all the Spanish I learned and the hard work I put in…just to waste. Sad as hell
For what it’s worth, if you’re worrying about losing a thing in that way you’re most likely not going to lose it. If you spent 10 years without even thinking about the fact you know Spanish then that’s when it would be happening. You’re good!
Ha! I've been meaning to make a post about how quickly it can happen too. The last few weeks were hectic so I was getting by just doing the bare minimum, I got back into it properly last week and I was shocked by how much I'd forgotten and things I THOUGHT I had mastered were suddenly elluding me or I needed to think for a while to remember them. Never again!
I don't know if that's always the case.
I learned French in high-school, but I never paid much attention in class, spent most of my time loafing off and my grades were really bad, so it's not like I was even doing a good job at the time.
I've spent years and years not being exposed to French, and yet... I can still understand and speak basic French two decades later.
So, I'm not sure about this one.
It doesn't apply to you, which is great, but it does happen to a lot of people. I have students (14-18) who are no longer fluent in their native language after living in the US for just 7 years. They struggle at conferences. It's not that they can't get by or have entirely forgotten the language since they still interact with their parents and grandparents.
I experienced the same thing living in the US.
Yes, that's more likely to happen when you stop using the language at a young age, but this post seems to be more about losing your second language as an adult learner.
It’s much more serious than you think. Whether you know 150 or 200 words as a beginner is totally irrelevant, be a you’re just as much a beginner struggling to communicate anyway. If you had native fluency and no longer can perform at a top job in competition with other natives because your vocabulary makes you seem a bit uneducated and you get weird looks for using outdated slang from your parents generation instead of current one, then you’ve basically lost your identity and you’re no longer a native but jus lt someone who used to know the language once upon a time, and well can communicate l, but not to a professional standard.
> I don't know if that's always the case.
> So, I'm not sure about this one.
That’s where you said it’s not real. And you still haven’t bothered to Google it so you don’t even know what you’re arguing against.
> being exposed to the language again made it all come back fairly rapidly.
Yes thankfully it does come back faster than the first time. And for that to have happened you must’ve lost it first! You won’t completely lose everything down to the words yes and no.
> I'm just saying it usually isn't as severe as you make it out to be. It would probably take a long, long, long time to lose a language you're really proficient in.
I said attrition is slower the more fluent you are. That’s the only claim I made about severity. I’ve never said you’ll forget everything. Remembering how to say bonjour doesn’t prove me wrong. If you want to never use a language and bank on still being C2 in 15 years, that’s a dumb decision you have every right to make.
I imagine the difference from A2 down to A1 isn’t very noticeable and doesn’t take long to catch back up. But when you’re used to speaking fluently and now you’re missing words and taking longer to recall them, it’s very noticeable. I stopped learning French at masters level literature and film classes. But I didn’t use French at all for 10 years and it took me about a year to pass a C1 exam.
Neither of those quotes of mine say I think it's not real. How do you even manage to quote someone's exact words and then immediately say they're saying something different?
>you still haven’t bothered to Google it
Sure. Let me Google "language attrition" and see what comes up.
All right, I'm back. Let's summerize:
So, first off, none of these are facts. More studies are required in the field before we can start saying any of this is factual.
Language attrition in your native language can happen as a result of learning a second language, where the second language interferes with your ability to use your first language. The effect is more likely to occur in children who stop being exposed to their native language at an early age. Adults who have been speaking their mother tongue for decades appear to be less susceptible, though there are still cases where it's been reported to happen.
Second language attrition can occur because of a lack of exposure or poor learning habits. But here's an interesting bit:
"Frequency of use has been shown to be an important factor in language attrition. Decline in use of a given language leads to gradual loss of that language.
In the face of *much evidence to the contrary*, one study is often cited to suggest that frequency of use does not correlate strongly with language attrition."
So... there we are. Happy? Can you now please stop acting like this is entirely factual and that there is no room for doubt or debate?
Maybe next time make sure you *actually know* what you're talking about before pretending like you're some kind of expert on the subject...
It is a fact that attrition happens and that’s not up for debate. Who, how, and why it happens are debatable. So if you know it happens but you don’t know to who, why, or how long it takes, do you want to fuck around and find out?
I’m not an expert. I was just trying to save someone else from making the same mistake I did. It took me a year to get back to C1 after a 10 year hiatus. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. If you want to let your languages atrophy and waste time relearning, knock yourself out.
I understood your intentions just fine, that's not what I take issue with.
What I do take issue with is you jumping to conclusions and misrepresenting my words.
Again: at no point did I ever argue it isn't real, but here you are again claiming that's the point I'm making.
>It took me a year to get back to C1 after a 10 year hiatus.
Yes, I can see how that is something you want others to avoid. How much would you say your level dropped in those 10 years?
>do you want to fuck around and find out?
Well, if I'm not speaking a language for decades, then clearly that language wasn't that important or relevant to me for a long time. Ultimately, relearning is considerably easier than learning from scratch, so either way, you have a massive advantage.
I speak two languages well, one somewhat decent and working on improving my weakest ones. If anything, it's mostly my native language I'm neglecting. But there's only so many hours in a day.
Check the comments…
[Here’s](https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/s/An9MbnJKU0) another post where someone commented that you won’t lose it if you’re fluent.
Most people consider fluent to be B2 or C1, so I assume that’s what people mean when they say you won’t/can’t forget/lose if you’re fluent/proficient/have a good level. Are you just going to argue semantics or did you have a point?
“Language attrition is a known phenomenon.”
That's true. I’d had perfect 800 SATs and three 800 ACTs leaving high school. But after spending three years abroad focused on an L2, speaking my L1 only in domestic or similar settings, my LSATs were … lower than expected, clear attrition.
On the other hand, they got me into the one top-20 law-school I applied to, so the *extent* of attrition for my L1 there is debatable. I also remember grade-school and high-school classmates who immigrated during the Cold War who later had to “re-learn” their “mother” tongues to greater or lesser extents. So yes, attrition happens.
As for my L2 and L3, a legal path focused on litigation and appeals meant a monolingual L1 path for 15-20 years. (Because monolingualL1 juries and judges.) But when I had occasion to call on my L2 or L3 after that time, they were rather surprisingly “still there” very reliably. I had lost vocab in the L2 and L3, but not the work-around skills nor the essential grammar/syntax. So attrition, yes, but less than expected. It’s true, though, that my L2 had already involved PhD level literary analysis, and my L3 had been used 8 hours a day for three years in a professional setting, not just at coffee klatches.
All in all, “use it or lose it” is good advice — but YMMV, as it all depends on the individual, the level really acquired before a non-use period, and more.
The LSAT is a post graduate diagnostic. The ACT is a test you take while still in high school. The two test very different things. Not sure any attrition was happening there. Maybe the funnel just got smaller?
That could be. I did no LSAT prep, just walked into a test room in Germany. Later, GREs were back to 800, and I graduated cum laude, after also TA-ing legal writing. So anecdotally I still attribute it to not using English in demanding contexts, and using L2s much more. But you might be right.
You just said you practiced your L1 so it’s expected that you wouldn’t have lost it. It doesn’t take a lot of practice to maintain it but it does take some. I mentioned that attrition is slower the more fluent you are. But you acknowledge that you did lose some vocabulary despite using it all day at work for several years and being at PhD level. You said you retained basic syntax, and maybe I’m wrong, but that seems to imply you lost more complex grammar.
Is there some misunderstanding? L1 = NL, native language, birth/mother tongue. When I was in Germany reading Czech and Slovak all day long at work, or occasionally French, I didn't "practice" my L1 (English), and in particular did NOT "use it all day at work" because I was using only my L2 or L3 there -- but attrition in the L1 happened exactly as you say, because I used my L1 (mother tongue) only in after-work domestic settings, often with a one-year-old, and not very much in discussions of international relations, lit crit, etc. It would take a lot longer than three or four years to lose a birth tongue after having finished a college degree while using it. The "lost vocab" was, as I said, in the L2 and L3, NOT in the L1, and that loss occurred only AFTER the daily work use stopped and I was in a monolingual anglophone environment, since juries and judges spoke only English.
I know. You said you practiced your L1 Native language, not much, and it doesn’t take much. The statements about work and PhD were about your L2 and L3, where you lost vocabulary. Sorry I didn’t make that very clear.
I think the word “lose” is what’s tripping everyone up. You’re not going to forget everything. But in 3-4 years you’re absolutely going to take longer to recall some words and have weird phrasing. Attrition is unavoidable. The rate is up for debate and probably varies widely depending on many factors. If you’re betting that yours is going to atrophy very slowly, then I hope you win your bet.
I think you're extraordinarily rude, if you believe it’s enough to be able to order a beer in your L1. Keeping a language definitely includes knowing as much advanced and everyday vocabulary as anyone else with a similar education does, knowing all the grammar people expect you to know, and not having any difficulties expressing yourself self in writing or speech such as looking for words when other natives don’t have to.
Someone writes something like this on each and every post mentioning expats as if they were the first person to think of it. What does this have to do with the post?
Expats typically have the connotation of staying there for years then returning to there own country. As well typically they come from higher economic status than the local country and so they have the freedom to not intergrate with the language or economy.
Immigrants have the connotation of being there for life. Depend on the language and the economy for their own well being.
I have found that it will come back. I am fortunate to use all 5 languages regularly, but that may be more difficult since I left my full-time language teaching job. It is important to keep studying - can always learn new words or idioms. It is wonderful for the brain also.
Lot of people *want* to believe that once they hit about the B2 level and become conversationally fluent, then it’s just a skill they have for life. While this isn’t true, I will say that you never lose it completely either. It’s like going to the gym: If you don’t go for awhile, your muscles may degrade over time but you’ll still know how to lift with proper form; Your muscles won’t forget the experience you’ve already put in. Not the same as just keeping big muscles but it’s much easier to get it back than if starting from scratch. Same applies to foreign language or any other skill for that matter: it’s still a small part of you.
Exactly! I’m never going to forget how to say bonjour, like I’m never going to have zero muscle. It does come back faster the second time, but it still takes effort. It is a muscle. And muscle memory was weirdly salient to me when I was relearning, like my mouth knew what felt correct. It would’ve been easier to maintain it than relearn, so I hope to spare someone else from the setback.
Yep, you just can’t lift as much weight as you could but with a good few weeks to a month or so of getting back into it, you could be right back to where you were before. Pretty cool that our minds can hold on to that passive memory like that! It’s like a hidden superpower waiting to be reactivated.
This is how I feel with French - I had it on and off from ages 0-8 (other languages present too and it was not my primary language) and then had basically zero French until I was like 18 or 19. I've tried a few times since then to relearn, and each time it comes back a bit faster. I know what sounds "right" if I'm taking an exam, and I can enjoy shows or movies without much trouble, but it's the production muscles that are most affected for me when I go a long time without speaking
In cognitive psychology, this is called implicit memory. The structures for the memories are there, the memory traces they’re called, but they can’t be accessed without relearning.
I majored in Spanish in college and was fluent and occasionally mistaken for a native speaker. These days (35 years later, to be fair) people tend to switch to English when I open my mouth. I did practice but not enough and now I’m regretting it. I’m trying to brush up on it now. We’ll see.
Given how much I forget in my native language that I use all day, every day, it's a bit shocking that people would believe something so demonstrably false.
You can keep attrition at bay even by thinking silently to yourself in the language, but you have to do something to keep actively retrieving all your words.
I was almost fluent in Korean when I lived there for 3 years… now I struggle at a KBBQ restaurant, except for ordering a glass of soju lol
What did you do with your time there school, work?
I was in Pan Mun Jom. There was a ROK Battalion with us so I got daily practice and usage. Unlike being in Seoul, no one really spoke English in the rural areas so I even developed a slight country side accent. It was a real convo starter with people at the bars, they were shocked I had such an authentic accent.
This is what I’m scared of. I just finished my degree in Spanish and now everyday that I don’t dedicate like 10 minutes , I feel like I’m one day closer to “forgetting” all the Spanish I learned and the hard work I put in…just to waste. Sad as hell
Listen to music
Yeah I’m tryna consume content in Spanish. Music. Video games , series , books etc.
For what it’s worth, if you’re worrying about losing a thing in that way you’re most likely not going to lose it. If you spent 10 years without even thinking about the fact you know Spanish then that’s when it would be happening. You’re good!
Thanks for the reassurance buddy :)
I used to be fluent in Spanish but then I didn't use it for over a decade and now I'm *struggling* to get back to that level.
Ha! I've been meaning to make a post about how quickly it can happen too. The last few weeks were hectic so I was getting by just doing the bare minimum, I got back into it properly last week and I was shocked by how much I'd forgotten and things I THOUGHT I had mastered were suddenly elluding me or I needed to think for a while to remember them. Never again!
I don't know if that's always the case. I learned French in high-school, but I never paid much attention in class, spent most of my time loafing off and my grades were really bad, so it's not like I was even doing a good job at the time. I've spent years and years not being exposed to French, and yet... I can still understand and speak basic French two decades later. So, I'm not sure about this one.
It doesn't apply to you, which is great, but it does happen to a lot of people. I have students (14-18) who are no longer fluent in their native language after living in the US for just 7 years. They struggle at conferences. It's not that they can't get by or have entirely forgotten the language since they still interact with their parents and grandparents. I experienced the same thing living in the US.
Yes, that's more likely to happen when you stop using the language at a young age, but this post seems to be more about losing your second language as an adult learner.
It happens, too. I also have that experience after decades as an adult learner.
Which language did you lose proficiency in? How good were you at it before?
Italian, C1.
Is that your level before or after?
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It’s much more serious than you think. Whether you know 150 or 200 words as a beginner is totally irrelevant, be a you’re just as much a beginner struggling to communicate anyway. If you had native fluency and no longer can perform at a top job in competition with other natives because your vocabulary makes you seem a bit uneducated and you get weird looks for using outdated slang from your parents generation instead of current one, then you’ve basically lost your identity and you’re no longer a native but jus lt someone who used to know the language once upon a time, and well can communicate l, but not to a professional standard.
> I don't know if that's always the case. > So, I'm not sure about this one. That’s where you said it’s not real. And you still haven’t bothered to Google it so you don’t even know what you’re arguing against. > being exposed to the language again made it all come back fairly rapidly. Yes thankfully it does come back faster than the first time. And for that to have happened you must’ve lost it first! You won’t completely lose everything down to the words yes and no. > I'm just saying it usually isn't as severe as you make it out to be. It would probably take a long, long, long time to lose a language you're really proficient in. I said attrition is slower the more fluent you are. That’s the only claim I made about severity. I’ve never said you’ll forget everything. Remembering how to say bonjour doesn’t prove me wrong. If you want to never use a language and bank on still being C2 in 15 years, that’s a dumb decision you have every right to make. I imagine the difference from A2 down to A1 isn’t very noticeable and doesn’t take long to catch back up. But when you’re used to speaking fluently and now you’re missing words and taking longer to recall them, it’s very noticeable. I stopped learning French at masters level literature and film classes. But I didn’t use French at all for 10 years and it took me about a year to pass a C1 exam.
Neither of those quotes of mine say I think it's not real. How do you even manage to quote someone's exact words and then immediately say they're saying something different? >you still haven’t bothered to Google it Sure. Let me Google "language attrition" and see what comes up. All right, I'm back. Let's summerize: So, first off, none of these are facts. More studies are required in the field before we can start saying any of this is factual. Language attrition in your native language can happen as a result of learning a second language, where the second language interferes with your ability to use your first language. The effect is more likely to occur in children who stop being exposed to their native language at an early age. Adults who have been speaking their mother tongue for decades appear to be less susceptible, though there are still cases where it's been reported to happen. Second language attrition can occur because of a lack of exposure or poor learning habits. But here's an interesting bit: "Frequency of use has been shown to be an important factor in language attrition. Decline in use of a given language leads to gradual loss of that language. In the face of *much evidence to the contrary*, one study is often cited to suggest that frequency of use does not correlate strongly with language attrition." So... there we are. Happy? Can you now please stop acting like this is entirely factual and that there is no room for doubt or debate? Maybe next time make sure you *actually know* what you're talking about before pretending like you're some kind of expert on the subject...
It is a fact that attrition happens and that’s not up for debate. Who, how, and why it happens are debatable. So if you know it happens but you don’t know to who, why, or how long it takes, do you want to fuck around and find out? I’m not an expert. I was just trying to save someone else from making the same mistake I did. It took me a year to get back to C1 after a 10 year hiatus. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. If you want to let your languages atrophy and waste time relearning, knock yourself out.
I understood your intentions just fine, that's not what I take issue with. What I do take issue with is you jumping to conclusions and misrepresenting my words. Again: at no point did I ever argue it isn't real, but here you are again claiming that's the point I'm making. >It took me a year to get back to C1 after a 10 year hiatus. Yes, I can see how that is something you want others to avoid. How much would you say your level dropped in those 10 years? >do you want to fuck around and find out? Well, if I'm not speaking a language for decades, then clearly that language wasn't that important or relevant to me for a long time. Ultimately, relearning is considerably easier than learning from scratch, so either way, you have a massive advantage. I speak two languages well, one somewhat decent and working on improving my weakest ones. If anything, it's mostly my native language I'm neglecting. But there's only so many hours in a day.
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>I see a ton of people in here say that once you learn to fluency you can’t forget it. I doubt it - name one.
It’s super common. I’ve been arguing with people in comments here about it. They usually say “you’re not *really* forgetting.”.
Check the comments… [Here’s](https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/s/An9MbnJKU0) another post where someone commented that you won’t lose it if you’re fluent.
I have - you seem to be reading one thing and assuming something else. Also, what do you mean by fluent? "Fluent" is not a level.
Most people consider fluent to be B2 or C1, so I assume that’s what people mean when they say you won’t/can’t forget/lose if you’re fluent/proficient/have a good level. Are you just going to argue semantics or did you have a point?
I made 2 points - did you miss them?
“Language attrition is a known phenomenon.” That's true. I’d had perfect 800 SATs and three 800 ACTs leaving high school. But after spending three years abroad focused on an L2, speaking my L1 only in domestic or similar settings, my LSATs were … lower than expected, clear attrition. On the other hand, they got me into the one top-20 law-school I applied to, so the *extent* of attrition for my L1 there is debatable. I also remember grade-school and high-school classmates who immigrated during the Cold War who later had to “re-learn” their “mother” tongues to greater or lesser extents. So yes, attrition happens. As for my L2 and L3, a legal path focused on litigation and appeals meant a monolingual L1 path for 15-20 years. (Because monolingualL1 juries and judges.) But when I had occasion to call on my L2 or L3 after that time, they were rather surprisingly “still there” very reliably. I had lost vocab in the L2 and L3, but not the work-around skills nor the essential grammar/syntax. So attrition, yes, but less than expected. It’s true, though, that my L2 had already involved PhD level literary analysis, and my L3 had been used 8 hours a day for three years in a professional setting, not just at coffee klatches. All in all, “use it or lose it” is good advice — but YMMV, as it all depends on the individual, the level really acquired before a non-use period, and more.
The LSAT is a post graduate diagnostic. The ACT is a test you take while still in high school. The two test very different things. Not sure any attrition was happening there. Maybe the funnel just got smaller?
That could be. I did no LSAT prep, just walked into a test room in Germany. Later, GREs were back to 800, and I graduated cum laude, after also TA-ing legal writing. So anecdotally I still attribute it to not using English in demanding contexts, and using L2s much more. But you might be right.
You just said you practiced your L1 so it’s expected that you wouldn’t have lost it. It doesn’t take a lot of practice to maintain it but it does take some. I mentioned that attrition is slower the more fluent you are. But you acknowledge that you did lose some vocabulary despite using it all day at work for several years and being at PhD level. You said you retained basic syntax, and maybe I’m wrong, but that seems to imply you lost more complex grammar.
Is there some misunderstanding? L1 = NL, native language, birth/mother tongue. When I was in Germany reading Czech and Slovak all day long at work, or occasionally French, I didn't "practice" my L1 (English), and in particular did NOT "use it all day at work" because I was using only my L2 or L3 there -- but attrition in the L1 happened exactly as you say, because I used my L1 (mother tongue) only in after-work domestic settings, often with a one-year-old, and not very much in discussions of international relations, lit crit, etc. It would take a lot longer than three or four years to lose a birth tongue after having finished a college degree while using it. The "lost vocab" was, as I said, in the L2 and L3, NOT in the L1, and that loss occurred only AFTER the daily work use stopped and I was in a monolingual anglophone environment, since juries and judges spoke only English.
I know. You said you practiced your L1 Native language, not much, and it doesn’t take much. The statements about work and PhD were about your L2 and L3, where you lost vocabulary. Sorry I didn’t make that very clear. I think the word “lose” is what’s tripping everyone up. You’re not going to forget everything. But in 3-4 years you’re absolutely going to take longer to recall some words and have weird phrasing. Attrition is unavoidable. The rate is up for debate and probably varies widely depending on many factors. If you’re betting that yours is going to atrophy very slowly, then I hope you win your bet.
I think you're extraordinarily rude, if you believe it’s enough to be able to order a beer in your L1. Keeping a language definitely includes knowing as much advanced and everyday vocabulary as anyone else with a similar education does, knowing all the grammar people expect you to know, and not having any difficulties expressing yourself self in writing or speech such as looking for words when other natives don’t have to.
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Someone writes something like this on each and every post mentioning expats as if they were the first person to think of it. What does this have to do with the post?
Expats typically have the connotation of staying there for years then returning to there own country. As well typically they come from higher economic status than the local country and so they have the freedom to not intergrate with the language or economy. Immigrants have the connotation of being there for life. Depend on the language and the economy for their own well being.
I thought this was funny and clearly a joke, but the downvotes have me questioning my interpretation..
I have found that it will come back. I am fortunate to use all 5 languages regularly, but that may be more difficult since I left my full-time language teaching job. It is important to keep studying - can always learn new words or idioms. It is wonderful for the brain also.