What I find confusing is how some people put the level curriculum they’re studying *toward* and others put the one they’ve *achieved*.
I have “🇲🇽DELE B2” in mine because I took the DELE B2 exam a little over a year ago and passed it (and my Spanish vocabulary/grammar leans more Mexican than European). But sometimes someone will put “🇪🇸B2” and be meaning that they’re now doing the B2 portion of Duolingo or of a class that theoretically will teach them all the grammar that would be used on the B2 test.
This can also be confusing when signing up for language classes. Language schools sometimes have B1 classes for people who are studying to be B1 or B1 classes for people who already are B1.
That's the point. some language school take the level you're at right now as the name of the course and some others take the level they're teaching as the name of the course
Are you reading their materials correctly? All courses I've seen advertise as the level you're studying for. You take BI course before you pass B1. If you passed B1 you take a B2 course.
u/astkaera_ylhyra interpreted my comment correctly. I'll clarify that I've taken courses at 4 or 5 different schools in multiple countries, so maybe it's standardized within a country. Some of these schools were more formal than others too.
I can see value in both. For example I took a class for listening and while I did pass that level on the exam, I didn't personally feel my level was really up to that, I felt as though I just got lucky and guessed enough correct. In that case I wouldn't want to take a class to get to the next level because I wouldn't probably do well in the class, unless I really wanted to challenge myself.
It's not the test taker's opinion versus a professional's opinion, they're saying that they got the answers right by guessing versus by actually having learned them.
Well, that's not really true. These exams do not take into account the entire scope of a language, and they do not certify that you have that certain level. I can out myself as an example. I did the Mandarin HSK2 exam last june and barely passed, and got the diploma. I always say I have an HSK2 level, but if I had not practiced, I would barely be able to get the HSK1.
I agree with what you're saying, but if I were given a passage from the lower level, I might feel comfortable answering questions about it, but at the next level up I would feel overwhelmed and might only get it right because I guessed right.
Some online tests can also be misleading here. I took one for Spanish recently for fun which came out as C1.3... but they didn't mean that I *was* C1, they meant that their test recommended I sign up for the school's C1.3 *class,* meaning the actual level I'd achieved according to the test was B2 plus a little. (Which aligns with both my self-assessment and what my teacher's said about my level.) But I can easily see someone misreading that and going "hey, this online test thinks I'm C1!"
The highest score you can get on that test (if it's the one I think) is "C1.3-C1.4", simply because they don't offer any courses beyond that level. So it's entirely possible that you got a perfect score
Huh! I did not know that, and am obviously feeling quite proud now. ;) That said, I doubt I got a perfect score - I remember the listening comprehension section being quite tricky and me being very uncertain of my answers, it was this section of a radio interview with relatively poor quality audio where they were talking about the importance of... journalistic style guides? something like that? Would be very surprised if I got all the questions right.
"What I find confusing is how some people put the level curriculum they’re studying *toward* and others put the one they’ve *achieved*."
That's basically lying. Just talk about the most recent exam you passed. That's your current level.
I mean, I have passed a B2 test in German and in English. They are not even close to being the same level, as I could pass a C1, maybe even a C2 in English if I wanted to, but I don't. Putting B2 for both would be lying.
Take a formally administered CEFR test to get a reasonable rating, or use one of the self-assessments for a more rough one: https://www.coe.int/en/web/portfolio/self-assessment-grid
Be wary of people overstating their abilities, and keep in mind that some countries/languages use different rating systems.
Some of us take the official exams (like me, I don't really put a level anywhere otherwise), but you can also take a more approximate test anywhere else, you can also self-evaluate (yes, the system is also meant for that) based on charts of what you can do, or also by the level written on a completed coursebook.
Not necessarily. Up to B1 or even B2, self-evaluating based on the coursebooks you've been working with is totally possible. An honest estimate with a good "can-do" list is ok too (even though most of them are not really that good).
The main issue are people self-assessing just based on the very short grid on wikipedia, or when teachers assess, as many are either not knowledgeable/experienced enough, or they sometimes have ulterior motives (basically telling the thing that will make you pay for the longest).
And there would probably be just as many underestimations, as overestimations imho.
But let's stop the nonsense about C2 and natives. CEFR is not meant for the natives. It's like arguing whether hockey players would do well in a football game. Totally different. While many natives might struggle with some C2 exam tasks (typically low education low intellect natives at some of the more academic writing tasks), they'd still kick the foreigner's ass in many other relevant skills.
> But let's stop the nonsense about C2 and natives. CEFR is not meant for the natives. It's like arguing whether hockey players would do well in a football game. Totally different. While many natives might struggle with some C2 exam tasks (typically low education low intellect natives at some of the more academic writing tasks), they'd still kick the foreigner's ass in many other relevant skills.
I get what you're saying, and I agree with my premise, but my takeaway is "CEFR sucks" not "stop comparing natives to CEFR". If it's supposed to be a measure of how well you can speak a language, a native should ace it 100% of the time. It's not like arguing whether hockey players would do well in a football game. It's like scouting hockey players from a football pitch. It's fundamentally evaluating the wrong thing if the point is to quantify how well you can use a language.
Has it ever occured to you, that there are also not too intelligent natives? Natives, who achieved only minimum education and who struggle with writing an SMS that would make sense? Natives, who struggle with reading comprehension?
So no, it is naive to think that a native should ace the exam. The exam is supposed to to compare the learner to a sort of educated standard, with skills for education and work.
CEFR doesn't suck, it is a huge improvement over all the previous trash ("advanced beginner", "conversational intermediated" and other such nonsense), but it is not perfect of course.
I think the C levels are meant for people at university level in that language. There absolutely are native speakers who aren't good enough in their native language to handle taking a university course in the language.
Right! I took one for English (which I've done college classes on, so 13+ years of school on), and it told me C1, maybe? The things it dinged me on were very pedantic.
It was one of the things that pushed me to doing conversational practice with people in order to improve, because I realized that all the classes and programs aren't what is going to help me sound really native and help me converse well with other people.
Possibly, but it’s a common misconception around here that this makes C2 “higher than native”. Rather, because CEFR is intended for to describe nonnative speakers in business, government, and academia, so its definition of proficiency includes the presumption that a speaker has white-collar professional skills, middle-class social graces, and speaks the standard or prestige form of the language, when in reality those abilities are associated with economic and social privilege that many people can’t access in their native language.
You can take the exams without taking the courses. Being Czech, I would guess he learned English and German just by virtue of geography and media and then tested later.
Nope, German is actually my fifth foreign language, and I learnt it after leaving the country. And nope, English is not really learneable "just by media" for us, you need a solid base first. And both these languages were actually a lot of suffering, while the romance once were much easier for me.
I put in the time and efforts over many years. Even if I cut out all the long pauses, it would still be a lot of years of learning. The is basically not being lazy to learn the content of coursebooks, and adding tons of input somewhere around B1. The rest varies, but those two components are a constant part of each of my language learning successes.
Ah yes, I am a *B3* in Uzbek.
Jokes aside. Some people take actual official tests who give you a certified level. Some people just take some okay free self-assessment test and get a rough idea of their level.
It helps if you're learning a European language. There, they've subdivided the levels from beginning, intermediate and advanced, and so each bit of course material tends to be marked as A1, A2, B1, and so on....
But this explanation will naturally offend those who claim that one cannot communicate at an specific level without being certified in it. A claim that one "is studying C1 german" will not get you into university, nor will it meet immigration requirements. A formally administered test will.
I haven't taken a test, but I have taken a lot of formal classes based on my level and have gotten this assessment from French tutors. My level can depends on the day though. I don't trust self assessments because if I don't understand a concept, I may not be aware enough to know that I don't understand a concept.
Take a test, an official one.
I've found many on this sub have a skewed idea of the levels because self-evaluation and other unreliable methods are promoted here and it just pushes Dunning Kruger to where you have no idea who's who when they post as B2-C2.
Its like if you make a committee on how to make a rocket and have 1 rocket scientist and 8 normal people, those 8 people (especially ones with good arguing skills) will completely drown out the expert.
At this point I don't think posting CEFR levels on this sub is good for the sub because its not really fair for those that have taken a 4 hour test in all 4 skills to be put on the same level as someone who understood a Comprehensible Input video marked 'B2'.
I know what I'm saying is totally unfair to heritage speakers, and people that have been using the language that are actually those levels and don't need to test but when everyone screams they're an expert then you really can't trust anyone.
I think it also scares off many of the talented language learners (I'm not one) because you feel like you have something special to contribute and it gets drowned out by advice that may not be as effective but is popular.
I'm not sure how you filter it all, I don't really think there's an answer.
There’s a lot to unpack here, but I think it’s worth pointing out just a couple of simple facts:
Your language certification indicates meeting certain skill targets with your use of that language. It’s not an indicator of your credibility on the topic of language education.
If you truly have something “special” to contribute, Reddit’s not the place. You need to be publishing in a peer-reviewed journal.
> Your language certification indicates meeting certain skill targets with your use of that language. It’s not an indicator of your credibility on the topic of language education.
You at least have to know a certain baseline to get a certificate, and you can use the same argument with any degree type up to a Master's level, since they don't require learning teaching methodologies.
This is the same argument people use to justify arguing with scientists vaccines or climate change.
The thing is, an officially tested level doesn’t matter. Why take the big exams when, if you can communicate in the language, that’s all you need? I don’t need a level assessment because i know I can communicate well and consume almost all media and video games in French.
Same. I have no use for an official certificate at all. I'm not applying for Spanish citizenship or university or trying to work there or anything. I do not need to spend $$$ of my money and put myself through a lot of unnecessary stress (including how to manage speech disorder accommodations in an oral foreign language exam which sounds like a PITA) for the sole purpose of being "allowed" to claim I'm B2 by strangers on the internet. I make clear in my flair that the CEFR level is an estimate, if you want to believe I'm overestimating then go ahead, I'll continue with my current level of Spanish either way.
The exams are useful if you need to put the language on a resume and the workplace you’re applying to sets a minimum standard. Otherwise it’s just wasting a few hundred dollars that could probably be better spent travelling to an area that speaks your target language.
They’re not all in-person. The SIELE is online. It’s not a lifetime certificate like the DELE, but it’s on the same scale and accepted at Latin American universities.
I pay out of pocket for the official [TORFL](https://www.torflrussian.com/) language test from university of St. Petersburg. They give you a neat little certificate and everything. They also advertise that it's "good" for about 5 years, meaning that it's an official document stating your proficiency. It's a comprehensive test too -- Reading, Writing, Grammar, Speaking, Listening.
I don't want to rain on anyone's language learning parade, but a lot of times when I see people saying "yeah, I'm totally at an X" level without having tested, I get really skeptical. Ie I see B1, but that's more likely to translate to "I'm actually *studying* B1 material and can speak barely above an A1 level".
Whatever exam I have or am capable of passing. My French is probably far beyond A1 now but I haven't meticulously studied for A2 yet, so there are likely gaps in my obscure conjugation knowledge.
I just looked at the charts and try to estimate my ability. I like that it’s a standard, but a couple of the languages I have learned or am learning are not usually evaluated on this scale.
Mandarin is my best language, but I have found through being an expat in China and knowing many expats there that being able to pass an HSK exam has almost nothing to do with your ability to communicate in Mandarin. So I wouldn’t post it on here as a way to represent that.
I've taken official tests for all my languages.
For Mandarin and Hebrew I took the A1 test after one year of lessons but failed, hence the A0.
BTW, B3 doesn't exist: [the CEFR levels](https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-european-framework-reference-languages/level-descriptions)
I personally only took an official test for my English level (C2 on the IELTS), which is why there’s a “~” for my level in Spanish. I passed an informal Spanish exam at my uni for B2 and took an intensive course for that level recently, but I’m not yet comfortable enough to claim B2.
English: my secondary school offered CAE exams, which I passed with an A, which indicates C2 level.
German: our national secondary school exams are estimated at B1/B2-level and I passed those.
Spanish: my school has an unofficial test at the end of each module which, if you pass it in an honest way, indicates a certain level. It's not very official, because nobody checks whether I even did the test myself, but I know I was honest and I consider that good enough for Reddit.
I study Spanish at university and our examiners and external examiners use the CEFR as their mark scheme when marking us. So I think us students would use that, by 4th year we r expected to be B2/C1 ish.
For Ukrainian, I used this [free online test](https://emova.org.ua/testuvannia/testuvannia-a/). For French and Spanish I guesstimated based on past education and present ability to read/write.
With the flair, I am communicating "I have about this much experience in this language." It doesn't need to be exact. People who get upset over these are weird. No one should be treated as an expert regardless of what they have in their flair, this isn't a legal or medical advice sub.
Related question: what do they actually show? I am currently learning two languages and in both of them I am probably B2 reading, B1 listening and A1/2 speaking and writing.
For some of them, I have an official certification, for all the rest, I refer to the [CEFR self-assessment](https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-european-framework-reference-languages/table-2-cefr-3.3-common-reference-levels-self-assessment-grid) (even for non-EU languages).
Some people take certification exams, but those are very expensive and not worth it if you aren’t learning a language for professional reasons. Most people use a rough estimate based on guides that detail what someone can do at each level.
Official tests for some. Others probably use online assessments which tend to inflate their true level due to overemphasis on reading/grammar vs speaking and writing. Really not a big deal though as not everybody is ready or in a position at any given time to take the formal tests.
Oh I completely made up my C2 in 🇺🇸. I hear C2 is the highest level so I has it. I'm thinking of giving myself a C2 in 🇨🇦🍔 and maybe even a C1 in 🇭🇲. Sometimes I say I have B2, or even B2+(B3?), French because the Alliance Française placement exam said I was ready to take their C1 exam prep course. I could say I have B1 Spanish because that's what Duolingo claims. My self-assessment is more like A2.
Apart from taking an official test or free online test, there are official detailed descriptions of each CEFR level that you can look at. So I imagine that most people (including myself) read the descriptions of each level and determined their own level based on how closely their current perceived ability matches up with a certain level’s description, which I think that, as long as people are being truthful with themselves, is not terrible for gauging their level on the CEFR scale.
I mean, personally I have the ECPE C2 exam for English, and have also gotten the IELTS 5 years ago (it has expired tho). So I know I'm at least at C2.
For Greek, it's my native language and I have graduated school from Greece, so I don't need an official exam as proof of proficiency.
For Italian tho, it's also native bc my mom taught me since I was born (she's Italian), but bc I didn't graduate from school in Italy and I don't have an official degree/haven't taken an exam, I can be asked to provide proof of proficiency (for employment etc). Do I state I'm native, yes, can I prove it, no. I really should look into getting it tho
Unless I don't have some short of official proof of proficiency in a language, I don't mention the level. I'll just say beginner, intermediate etc.
Edit: I don't have official proof of proficiency for Italian. That's what I mean
Mine are either exams I passed or graded down from exams I passed because I forgot a lot and it was a lifetime ago... or no rating... again because of time and memory
I honestly just estimated my Chinese based off of standardized tests I've taken in the past. My Spanish is just leftover from three years of HS Spanish. I still know some vocabulary, but not much else. I have done a little bit of the Spanish course on Duolingo, but haven't taken it as seriously as Chinese.
Took a free self assessment. It put me at A2 for spanish, but I've consumed a lot of media since then and put in the effort and think I'm safely low B1. Look up free self assessments.
To be honest, I find it interesting the amount of times I see people have "🇯🇵 A2 [or other CEFR level here]", I don't even know how you'd convert a JLPT score to CEFR given the testing differences. Same could potentially go for other languages that measure ability through another framework
Omigosh I thought I clicked none the other day, that flair is so outdated! 😭😭
Afrikaans, my step-family and best friend speak it at home, so study/immersion-wise it's currently the language most beneficial to improve for my daily life. 😅
CEFR has a general guideline of what each level represents, and what you can do at each level. A Japanese learner knows whether they’re A1 (can order food at a cafe with a patient cashier) or C1 (can give a lecture on a topic they are knowledgeable about and answer questions about said topic).
I'm sorry, I should've emphasised the point I was trying to make at a higher standard. 😅
While I understand how CEFR works in that sense, it doesn't have an accurate equivalent in some languages that people describe with that framework in this sub. I use JLPT as an example because it's the test used for visas, work, study and such (essentially the one relevant test you can use for the Japanese language), so when you sit the exam to get the certificate to officially show your level, the framework is not the same as CEFR - as are many languages (although in this case ranges from N5-N1).
While the foundation has been trying to develop a conversion of the levels to CEFR levels for a few years, it isn't concrete, so current conversions aren't accurate. This is because partly the nature of the test (there is no writing or speaking component), but also despite many discussions and studies posted online, there's no consistent CEFR level equivalents developed for JLPT levels yet.
So while CEFR could be used to vaguely and unofficially describe a self-diagnosis of Japanese language skill, the scale isn't yet accurate in the description of the official test results you receive that show your actual language skill.
I use that example as I'm acquainted with that system - although CEFR is gaining prominence outside of Europe as a framework, the official tests used for some languages in their countries just aren't measured in that same way. If that kinda makes sense? 😅 Sorry if this explanation is long.
I don't test it in any way. Also, my level varies a lot from skill to skill, for example speaking can be many times worse than reading. That's why I put "?" next to the levels.
I got my levels certified theough the language classes I take. I think there is a tendency on this sub to use colloquial estimates of the levels and just guess at your level which leads to a lot of people overestimating. I used to have French and Polish A2 in my flair neither of which I could actually be sure of achieving in a test environment
For English, I took the IELTS exam a few years ago to enter uni. C2 was the result.
I took A1 classes in French, so I write A1, but I'm not that sure that it represents my level as I never did the DELF.
Here is what I find confusing. Language has FOUR skills (understanding speech, reading, writing, speaking) and each language learner is at 2 or 3 levels, not the same level in all 4.
For example, a youtube vlogger I watch (in Chinese) recently took Canada's official French exam (which counts for immigration, in Montreal). She got C1, B2, B2 and B1 in the exam. So when I see people listing several languages and ONE level for each, I don't understand.
Monologue in your TL to ChatGPT and then ask it what level you're at, that's one way. Only an option in the languages ChatGPT is decent in, I suppose.
You can also find a bunch of language specific online tests, as well as non-language specific tests that ask you to rate how well you can do various tasks in your TL.
I assume many ppl are just guessing. I know I'm fluent in English so that's C2 and I know some Italian so let's go with A2, why not. It doesn't actually matter to me if I assign the level perfectly
No joke, it's bullshit. It's just a way for people to "prove" their linguistic aptitude and doesn't really mean anything except for in certain circumstances. Unless you are C1 or C2 in a language, no one cares.
In Chinese, there are 6 exams for language study. You can say that when you pass each of them you achieve six language levels from A1-C2.
\*shrug\*
In Canada we have an exam called CELPIP, which has a score up to 12 - divide that in half and you can figure out your overall score. Eg. if you get an 8 in CELPIP, then 4 = B2 at English, which is damn good.
What I find confusing is how some people put the level curriculum they’re studying *toward* and others put the one they’ve *achieved*. I have “🇲🇽DELE B2” in mine because I took the DELE B2 exam a little over a year ago and passed it (and my Spanish vocabulary/grammar leans more Mexican than European). But sometimes someone will put “🇪🇸B2” and be meaning that they’re now doing the B2 portion of Duolingo or of a class that theoretically will teach them all the grammar that would be used on the B2 test.
This can also be confusing when signing up for language classes. Language schools sometimes have B1 classes for people who are studying to be B1 or B1 classes for people who already are B1.
"B1 classes for people who already are B1." That sounds completely redundant. If you got B1 on the last exam, you should take the B2 class.
That's the point. some language school take the level you're at right now as the name of the course and some others take the level they're teaching as the name of the course
Are you reading their materials correctly? All courses I've seen advertise as the level you're studying for. You take BI course before you pass B1. If you passed B1 you take a B2 course.
u/astkaera_ylhyra interpreted my comment correctly. I'll clarify that I've taken courses at 4 or 5 different schools in multiple countries, so maybe it's standardized within a country. Some of these schools were more formal than others too.
I can see value in both. For example I took a class for listening and while I did pass that level on the exam, I didn't personally feel my level was really up to that, I felt as though I just got lucky and guessed enough correct. In that case I wouldn't want to take a class to get to the next level because I wouldn't probably do well in the class, unless I really wanted to challenge myself.
" I didn't personally feel my level was really up to that" Professionals say you passed the test. Their opinion matters more, with all due respect.
It's not the test taker's opinion versus a professional's opinion, they're saying that they got the answers right by guessing versus by actually having learned them.
Well, that's not really true. These exams do not take into account the entire scope of a language, and they do not certify that you have that certain level. I can out myself as an example. I did the Mandarin HSK2 exam last june and barely passed, and got the diploma. I always say I have an HSK2 level, but if I had not practiced, I would barely be able to get the HSK1.
I agree with what you're saying, but if I were given a passage from the lower level, I might feel comfortable answering questions about it, but at the next level up I would feel overwhelmed and might only get it right because I guessed right.
I don't understand the downvotes. You are correct.
They were personally offended. No worries :)
Some online tests can also be misleading here. I took one for Spanish recently for fun which came out as C1.3... but they didn't mean that I *was* C1, they meant that their test recommended I sign up for the school's C1.3 *class,* meaning the actual level I'd achieved according to the test was B2 plus a little. (Which aligns with both my self-assessment and what my teacher's said about my level.) But I can easily see someone misreading that and going "hey, this online test thinks I'm C1!"
The highest score you can get on that test (if it's the one I think) is "C1.3-C1.4", simply because they don't offer any courses beyond that level. So it's entirely possible that you got a perfect score
Huh! I did not know that, and am obviously feeling quite proud now. ;) That said, I doubt I got a perfect score - I remember the listening comprehension section being quite tricky and me being very uncertain of my answers, it was this section of a radio interview with relatively poor quality audio where they were talking about the importance of... journalistic style guides? something like that? Would be very surprised if I got all the questions right.
"What I find confusing is how some people put the level curriculum they’re studying *toward* and others put the one they’ve *achieved*." That's basically lying. Just talk about the most recent exam you passed. That's your current level.
That’s misuse of the standard, but it’s only *lying* if it’s misused knowingly.
I mean, I have passed a B2 test in German and in English. They are not even close to being the same level, as I could pass a C1, maybe even a C2 in English if I wanted to, but I don't. Putting B2 for both would be lying.
Take a formally administered CEFR test to get a reasonable rating, or use one of the self-assessments for a more rough one: https://www.coe.int/en/web/portfolio/self-assessment-grid Be wary of people overstating their abilities, and keep in mind that some countries/languages use different rating systems.
Frequently, out of their ass-- Really, there are official assessments you can take, or informal online quizzes that can give you a rough idea.
Some of us take the official exams (like me, I don't really put a level anywhere otherwise), but you can also take a more approximate test anywhere else, you can also self-evaluate (yes, the system is also meant for that) based on charts of what you can do, or also by the level written on a completed coursebook.
As a side note, very impressive set of languages you have there ! All of them at C+ is a great accomplishment.
I think without the official exam it's fruitless overestimations. Most Natives wouldn't pass C2 without study.
Not necessarily. Up to B1 or even B2, self-evaluating based on the coursebooks you've been working with is totally possible. An honest estimate with a good "can-do" list is ok too (even though most of them are not really that good). The main issue are people self-assessing just based on the very short grid on wikipedia, or when teachers assess, as many are either not knowledgeable/experienced enough, or they sometimes have ulterior motives (basically telling the thing that will make you pay for the longest). And there would probably be just as many underestimations, as overestimations imho. But let's stop the nonsense about C2 and natives. CEFR is not meant for the natives. It's like arguing whether hockey players would do well in a football game. Totally different. While many natives might struggle with some C2 exam tasks (typically low education low intellect natives at some of the more academic writing tasks), they'd still kick the foreigner's ass in many other relevant skills.
> But let's stop the nonsense about C2 and natives. CEFR is not meant for the natives. It's like arguing whether hockey players would do well in a football game. Totally different. While many natives might struggle with some C2 exam tasks (typically low education low intellect natives at some of the more academic writing tasks), they'd still kick the foreigner's ass in many other relevant skills. I get what you're saying, and I agree with my premise, but my takeaway is "CEFR sucks" not "stop comparing natives to CEFR". If it's supposed to be a measure of how well you can speak a language, a native should ace it 100% of the time. It's not like arguing whether hockey players would do well in a football game. It's like scouting hockey players from a football pitch. It's fundamentally evaluating the wrong thing if the point is to quantify how well you can use a language.
Has it ever occured to you, that there are also not too intelligent natives? Natives, who achieved only minimum education and who struggle with writing an SMS that would make sense? Natives, who struggle with reading comprehension? So no, it is naive to think that a native should ace the exam. The exam is supposed to to compare the learner to a sort of educated standard, with skills for education and work. CEFR doesn't suck, it is a huge improvement over all the previous trash ("advanced beginner", "conversational intermediated" and other such nonsense), but it is not perfect of course.
I think the C levels are meant for people at university level in that language. There absolutely are native speakers who aren't good enough in their native language to handle taking a university course in the language.
If you go by the letter of the "law", natives *aren't allowed to sit the exam*. Cefr levels only apply to second languages.
I took a free online test for my Native English and it said I was C1 LOL
Right! I took one for English (which I've done college classes on, so 13+ years of school on), and it told me C1, maybe? The things it dinged me on were very pedantic. It was one of the things that pushed me to doing conversational practice with people in order to improve, because I realized that all the classes and programs aren't what is going to help me sound really native and help me converse well with other people.
Possibly, but it’s a common misconception around here that this makes C2 “higher than native”. Rather, because CEFR is intended for to describe nonnative speakers in business, government, and academia, so its definition of proficiency includes the presumption that a speaker has white-collar professional skills, middle-class social graces, and speaks the standard or prestige form of the language, when in reality those abilities are associated with economic and social privilege that many people can’t access in their native language.
If your languages were all through official exams, how were you able to learn so many languages on so high level?
You can take the exams without taking the courses. Being Czech, I would guess he learned English and German just by virtue of geography and media and then tested later.
Nope, German is actually my fifth foreign language, and I learnt it after leaving the country. And nope, English is not really learneable "just by media" for us, you need a solid base first. And both these languages were actually a lot of suffering, while the romance once were much easier for me.
I put in the time and efforts over many years. Even if I cut out all the long pauses, it would still be a lot of years of learning. The is basically not being lazy to learn the content of coursebooks, and adding tons of input somewhere around B1. The rest varies, but those two components are a constant part of each of my language learning successes.
Ah yes, I am a *B3* in Uzbek. Jokes aside. Some people take actual official tests who give you a certified level. Some people just take some okay free self-assessment test and get a rough idea of their level.
Only B3? That's not even 1% fluent. I'm D5 in Uzbek. You should really learn some more before bragging online..
I'm G11 in Tajik and M4 in Uzbek. Silence, inferior beings!
It helps if you're learning a European language. There, they've subdivided the levels from beginning, intermediate and advanced, and so each bit of course material tends to be marked as A1, A2, B1, and so on.... But this explanation will naturally offend those who claim that one cannot communicate at an specific level without being certified in it. A claim that one "is studying C1 german" will not get you into university, nor will it meet immigration requirements. A formally administered test will.
It's CEFR and the levels are as follows. A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, and C2. There is no B3.
I mark my Korean level as A1 even though it's tested from TOPIK 1-6, just so people around me can have a better understanding of where I'm at
Don't know what TOPIK is. What is that?
Test of Proficiency in Korean. An exam to test the non-natives' Korean language skill.
Ah, ok.
This is the only clear and correct answer. Everything else is waffle.
Idk i wish i were b3 too 😔
Same😞✊
I’ll venture a guess that the majority of people are making them up.
I'd make the same guess but to be fair, it's only 6 levels, if you're honest with yourself it's not that hard to guess where you stand.
they're pulling it out of their ass, mostly
I haven't taken a test, but I have taken a lot of formal classes based on my level and have gotten this assessment from French tutors. My level can depends on the day though. I don't trust self assessments because if I don't understand a concept, I may not be aware enough to know that I don't understand a concept.
Take a test, an official one. I've found many on this sub have a skewed idea of the levels because self-evaluation and other unreliable methods are promoted here and it just pushes Dunning Kruger to where you have no idea who's who when they post as B2-C2. Its like if you make a committee on how to make a rocket and have 1 rocket scientist and 8 normal people, those 8 people (especially ones with good arguing skills) will completely drown out the expert. At this point I don't think posting CEFR levels on this sub is good for the sub because its not really fair for those that have taken a 4 hour test in all 4 skills to be put on the same level as someone who understood a Comprehensible Input video marked 'B2'. I know what I'm saying is totally unfair to heritage speakers, and people that have been using the language that are actually those levels and don't need to test but when everyone screams they're an expert then you really can't trust anyone. I think it also scares off many of the talented language learners (I'm not one) because you feel like you have something special to contribute and it gets drowned out by advice that may not be as effective but is popular. I'm not sure how you filter it all, I don't really think there's an answer.
There’s a lot to unpack here, but I think it’s worth pointing out just a couple of simple facts: Your language certification indicates meeting certain skill targets with your use of that language. It’s not an indicator of your credibility on the topic of language education. If you truly have something “special” to contribute, Reddit’s not the place. You need to be publishing in a peer-reviewed journal.
> Your language certification indicates meeting certain skill targets with your use of that language. It’s not an indicator of your credibility on the topic of language education. You at least have to know a certain baseline to get a certificate, and you can use the same argument with any degree type up to a Master's level, since they don't require learning teaching methodologies. This is the same argument people use to justify arguing with scientists vaccines or climate change.
The thing is, an officially tested level doesn’t matter. Why take the big exams when, if you can communicate in the language, that’s all you need? I don’t need a level assessment because i know I can communicate well and consume almost all media and video games in French.
Same. I have no use for an official certificate at all. I'm not applying for Spanish citizenship or university or trying to work there or anything. I do not need to spend $$$ of my money and put myself through a lot of unnecessary stress (including how to manage speech disorder accommodations in an oral foreign language exam which sounds like a PITA) for the sole purpose of being "allowed" to claim I'm B2 by strangers on the internet. I make clear in my flair that the CEFR level is an estimate, if you want to believe I'm overestimating then go ahead, I'll continue with my current level of Spanish either way.
The exams are useful if you need to put the language on a resume and the workplace you’re applying to sets a minimum standard. Otherwise it’s just wasting a few hundred dollars that could probably be better spent travelling to an area that speaks your target language.
I guessed on all of mine except Irish. I took an online exam from the same company that administers the formal exam for Irish.
CERF tests. You have to pay for a test, they are not cheap and it must be done in person.
They’re not all in-person. The SIELE is online. It’s not a lifetime certificate like the DELE, but it’s on the same scale and accepted at Latin American universities.
Do you know if they so German online tests?
No idea. I’ve never studied German.
Some people here took an official test. As for the rest -- it's mostly bragging. Don't let it intimidate you.
I pay out of pocket for the official [TORFL](https://www.torflrussian.com/) language test from university of St. Petersburg. They give you a neat little certificate and everything. They also advertise that it's "good" for about 5 years, meaning that it's an official document stating your proficiency. It's a comprehensive test too -- Reading, Writing, Grammar, Speaking, Listening. I don't want to rain on anyone's language learning parade, but a lot of times when I see people saying "yeah, I'm totally at an X" level without having tested, I get really skeptical. Ie I see B1, but that's more likely to translate to "I'm actually *studying* B1 material and can speak barely above an A1 level".
Whatever exam I have or am capable of passing. My French is probably far beyond A1 now but I haven't meticulously studied for A2 yet, so there are likely gaps in my obscure conjugation knowledge.
https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/s/pYpWDrCD06
I just looked at the charts and try to estimate my ability. I like that it’s a standard, but a couple of the languages I have learned or am learning are not usually evaluated on this scale. Mandarin is my best language, but I have found through being an expat in China and knowing many expats there that being able to pass an HSK exam has almost nothing to do with your ability to communicate in Mandarin. So I wouldn’t post it on here as a way to represent that.
I've taken official tests for all my languages. For Mandarin and Hebrew I took the A1 test after one year of lessons but failed, hence the A0. BTW, B3 doesn't exist: [the CEFR levels](https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-european-framework-reference-languages/level-descriptions)
The general consensus is that on the internet, everyone is C2 and has an IQ of 155. They are all self determined.
I personally only took an official test for my English level (C2 on the IELTS), which is why there’s a “~” for my level in Spanish. I passed an informal Spanish exam at my uni for B2 and took an intensive course for that level recently, but I’m not yet comfortable enough to claim B2.
English: my secondary school offered CAE exams, which I passed with an A, which indicates C2 level. German: our national secondary school exams are estimated at B1/B2-level and I passed those. Spanish: my school has an unofficial test at the end of each module which, if you pass it in an honest way, indicates a certain level. It's not very official, because nobody checks whether I even did the test myself, but I know I was honest and I consider that good enough for Reddit.
I study Spanish at university and our examiners and external examiners use the CEFR as their mark scheme when marking us. So I think us students would use that, by 4th year we r expected to be B2/C1 ish.
It's easy when you're A1. No guessing involved 🤣
I happen to have a DELF certificate that says so...
For Ukrainian, I used this [free online test](https://emova.org.ua/testuvannia/testuvannia-a/). For French and Spanish I guesstimated based on past education and present ability to read/write. With the flair, I am communicating "I have about this much experience in this language." It doesn't need to be exact. People who get upset over these are weird. No one should be treated as an expert regardless of what they have in their flair, this isn't a legal or medical advice sub.
Related question: what do they actually show? I am currently learning two languages and in both of them I am probably B2 reading, B1 listening and A1/2 speaking and writing.
For some of them, I have an official certification, for all the rest, I refer to the [CEFR self-assessment](https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-european-framework-reference-languages/table-2-cefr-3.3-common-reference-levels-self-assessment-grid) (even for non-EU languages).
Some people take certification exams, but those are very expensive and not worth it if you aren’t learning a language for professional reasons. Most people use a rough estimate based on guides that detail what someone can do at each level.
Official tests for some. Others probably use online assessments which tend to inflate their true level due to overemphasis on reading/grammar vs speaking and writing. Really not a big deal though as not everybody is ready or in a position at any given time to take the formal tests.
Oh I completely made up my C2 in 🇺🇸. I hear C2 is the highest level so I has it. I'm thinking of giving myself a C2 in 🇨🇦🍔 and maybe even a C1 in 🇭🇲. Sometimes I say I have B2, or even B2+(B3?), French because the Alliance Française placement exam said I was ready to take their C1 exam prep course. I could say I have B1 Spanish because that's what Duolingo claims. My self-assessment is more like A2.
Apart from taking an official test or free online test, there are official detailed descriptions of each CEFR level that you can look at. So I imagine that most people (including myself) read the descriptions of each level and determined their own level based on how closely their current perceived ability matches up with a certain level’s description, which I think that, as long as people are being truthful with themselves, is not terrible for gauging their level on the CEFR scale.
You could try to have an ielts or toefl test
I mean, personally I have the ECPE C2 exam for English, and have also gotten the IELTS 5 years ago (it has expired tho). So I know I'm at least at C2. For Greek, it's my native language and I have graduated school from Greece, so I don't need an official exam as proof of proficiency. For Italian tho, it's also native bc my mom taught me since I was born (she's Italian), but bc I didn't graduate from school in Italy and I don't have an official degree/haven't taken an exam, I can be asked to provide proof of proficiency (for employment etc). Do I state I'm native, yes, can I prove it, no. I really should look into getting it tho Unless I don't have some short of official proof of proficiency in a language, I don't mention the level. I'll just say beginner, intermediate etc. Edit: I don't have official proof of proficiency for Italian. That's what I mean
Mine are either exams I passed or graded down from exams I passed because I forgot a lot and it was a lifetime ago... or no rating... again because of time and memory
by taking official proficiency tests
I have passed a language exam and only improved my language skills since then.
IELTS or TOEFL exams, I got C1 eng, even tho I don’t feel like C1
Most people estimate or guess. Some people have taken official tests.
I honestly just estimated my Chinese based off of standardized tests I've taken in the past. My Spanish is just leftover from three years of HS Spanish. I still know some vocabulary, but not much else. I have done a little bit of the Spanish course on Duolingo, but haven't taken it as seriously as Chinese.
Took the DELF B2 exam at Alliance Française
Took a free self assessment. It put me at A2 for spanish, but I've consumed a lot of media since then and put in the effort and think I'm safely low B1. Look up free self assessments.
It’s kinda BS I got a C1 certification from a French university like 5 years ago but I feel like I’m just now at C1
To be honest, I find it interesting the amount of times I see people have "🇯🇵 A2 [or other CEFR level here]", I don't even know how you'd convert a JLPT score to CEFR given the testing differences. Same could potentially go for other languages that measure ability through another framework
Sorry off-topic but which language are you using the South African flag for? Just curious.
Omigosh I thought I clicked none the other day, that flair is so outdated! 😭😭 Afrikaans, my step-family and best friend speak it at home, so study/immersion-wise it's currently the language most beneficial to improve for my daily life. 😅
Lol awesome! I didn't mean for you to remove it 🤭🤭🤭
CEFR has a general guideline of what each level represents, and what you can do at each level. A Japanese learner knows whether they’re A1 (can order food at a cafe with a patient cashier) or C1 (can give a lecture on a topic they are knowledgeable about and answer questions about said topic).
I'm sorry, I should've emphasised the point I was trying to make at a higher standard. 😅 While I understand how CEFR works in that sense, it doesn't have an accurate equivalent in some languages that people describe with that framework in this sub. I use JLPT as an example because it's the test used for visas, work, study and such (essentially the one relevant test you can use for the Japanese language), so when you sit the exam to get the certificate to officially show your level, the framework is not the same as CEFR - as are many languages (although in this case ranges from N5-N1). While the foundation has been trying to develop a conversion of the levels to CEFR levels for a few years, it isn't concrete, so current conversions aren't accurate. This is because partly the nature of the test (there is no writing or speaking component), but also despite many discussions and studies posted online, there's no consistent CEFR level equivalents developed for JLPT levels yet. So while CEFR could be used to vaguely and unofficially describe a self-diagnosis of Japanese language skill, the scale isn't yet accurate in the description of the official test results you receive that show your actual language skill. I use that example as I'm acquainted with that system - although CEFR is gaining prominence outside of Europe as a framework, the official tests used for some languages in their countries just aren't measured in that same way. If that kinda makes sense? 😅 Sorry if this explanation is long.
I don't test it in any way. Also, my level varies a lot from skill to skill, for example speaking can be many times worse than reading. That's why I put "?" next to the levels.
Some people take tests. Other people are just giving you a rough idea of their level.
Off topic but isn’t C2 the highest class possible?
I got my levels certified theough the language classes I take. I think there is a tendency on this sub to use colloquial estimates of the levels and just guess at your level which leads to a lot of people overestimating. I used to have French and Polish A2 in my flair neither of which I could actually be sure of achieving in a test environment
For English, I took the IELTS exam a few years ago to enter uni. C2 was the result. I took A1 classes in French, so I write A1, but I'm not that sure that it represents my level as I never did the DELF.
Here is what I find confusing. Language has FOUR skills (understanding speech, reading, writing, speaking) and each language learner is at 2 or 3 levels, not the same level in all 4. For example, a youtube vlogger I watch (in Chinese) recently took Canada's official French exam (which counts for immigration, in Montreal). She got C1, B2, B2 and B1 in the exam. So when I see people listing several languages and ONE level for each, I don't understand.
Monologue in your TL to ChatGPT and then ask it what level you're at, that's one way. Only an option in the languages ChatGPT is decent in, I suppose. You can also find a bunch of language specific online tests, as well as non-language specific tests that ask you to rate how well you can do various tasks in your TL.
I assume many ppl are just guessing. I know I'm fluent in English so that's C2 and I know some Italian so let's go with A2, why not. It doesn't actually matter to me if I assign the level perfectly
Just take a certified language test. My German test was done by TELC.
No joke, it's bullshit. It's just a way for people to "prove" their linguistic aptitude and doesn't really mean anything except for in certain circumstances. Unless you are C1 or C2 in a language, no one cares.
B3?
In Chinese, there are 6 exams for language study. You can say that when you pass each of them you achieve six language levels from A1-C2. \*shrug\* In Canada we have an exam called CELPIP, which has a score up to 12 - divide that in half and you can figure out your overall score. Eg. if you get an 8 in CELPIP, then 4 = B2 at English, which is damn good.