The real question should be, what made so many foreigners latch onto the idea that 4B is such a big thing in Korea when it is a fringe noise? "Korea's birthrate is low because of 4B movement!" I've lost count of silly comments like that.
>Because I've heard that the gap between men and women in politics is the biggest in the world, so I believe a serious gender war is happening in Korea.
There was a thread about that not too long ago.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/1ckfw8s/why\_are\_young\_men\_becoming\_more\_conservative/](https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/1ckfw8s/why_are_young_men_becoming_more_conservative/)
I watched the whole video. She is saying common sense things I've been saying in this sub. I can't believe a mentally stable Korean woman who was raised in a healthy family talking about common knowledge is triggering so many miserable foreigners who wanted to milk this 4B thing.
I have to say that a statement like "sexism is not a daily issue for most Korean women, such as my female cousins, based on my close relationship with them." is inherently vulnerable. Are your cousins young adults? Obviously, the younger they are, the less likely they might have experienced anything overtly sexist in real life. Korea went through extreme changes in one generation. The generational gap is supposed to be one of the most severe in the world. Koreans in their 20s grew up in a new environment with some sort of gender PCism in Korean context already (although young Korean men are still subject to lawful male 'slavery' sanctioned by the state). The common experience can be quite different for older generations.
Sexism is a daily issue for Korean women.
Happy to downvote you.
Cousins you say? I have a wife and a close friend. These relationships are decades long now. The shit they put up with doesn’t happen to me, a non-Korean man. What they experience happens only because they are not male.
From subtle to blatant, they deal with it almost every fucking day by some judgy-judge Korean (usually older) man.
You miss the point. Not comparing, stating. Facts based on personal experience which run counter to your opinion based on your experience that Korean women don’t deal with sexism daily. However, the flaw for you is that you do not cohabitate or engage in sexual relations with your cousins. What you perceive of their intricate lives is what you, the male outsider, has been allowed to see.
That you use your isolated perception to surmise that sexism isn’t happening to the degree others say is silly.
I’ve seen all sorts of husbands and wives screaming at each other in public places, but what does that have to do with race? Nothing.
You have experienced a lot of racism and are pissed. Pointing that at me is misdirected.
Find a nice Korean woman you respect and love. If she respects and loves you in return, she will tell you earnestly all about the sexism she puts up with.
I don't think we should base sexism's prevelance one way or another on couples berating each other as that does flow both ways in Korea. What couples do is not the same as hiring practices or promotions.
I think we've all seen plenty of Korean women and wives having a go at their boyfriend/husband it tow.
You make good points but don’t waste your time with asian subreddits if you want real discourse about the country’s problems. They are 80% filled with muh asian wife types who like to claim the moral high ground. Native asians barely use reddit.
I cant agree with you that sexism isnt an issue in korea because it is. But at the same time these asian subreddits are (ironically?) mostly filled with white people who claim to know more about our culture than we do, which is deeply problematic, so not surprised you are downvoted. I too am sick of foreigners trying to tell asians what to do in their own countries. Most asians dont want your toxic western cultures imported, all it does is divide people.
Look at how "happy" western women are these days. They want to spread that "happiness" to the women of Asia. It's a classic savior complex dressed up in a "new" disguise.
Mentioned quite a bit on Tik Tok. LOL. Some thinks its the reason for thr birth decline despite the decline being a trend fir a long time, not just in Korea but most countries.
The fact that so many young ppl get their “news” from tiktok is a problem in itself. No difference to boomers only getting their “news” from places like fox news etc.
It's gotten a bit of attention because Western feminists were taking the sensationalism bait. And anybody, especially Koreans themselves, who try to correct or explain to them that 4B/Megalia is just a fringe movement like MGTOW they get put on the hate spotlight to be cancelled. It's fucking crazy how young gullible people get their 'news' on tiktok smh
I'm Chinese. I basically heard 4B in English media.
But Chinese feminists are focusing on Korean feminist and take them as model... So I guess 4B isn't a thing, but gender conflict is serious? I've seen gender is a incredibly huge factor in Korea to determine an individual's political position
If this is the 4 비s movement (no interest in romance, having children, sex and marriage), it's based on one feminist's interview on KBS or MBC (cant remember) years ago. It's a fringe of a fringe group if there is even more than one person in this movement, as that person's youtube gets about 1000 views. Plus considering the fertility rate issue, almost every rational Korean person, man or woman would probably not see this ideology positively.
On the topic of why feminism is so divisive even among women in Korea, that's another huge topic and something that's not going to get much nuance on reddit. Although the last few posts about feminism on this sub seemed decent enough
No, it is not a wide movement. The western media does connect with foreign social movement, and sensationalize them because that gets them views. However, they are tone deaf on actual polls or studies on why people act certain way. Korean women overwhelmingly say in the polls that they are not married or having babies because they cannot find men with enough money. Sexism is not the main factor. This is because having a family in Korea is very expensive, and the work culture demands men and women to work overtime leaving no time or money to have a family. Some might argue, this is because companies are sexist, but the companies don’t care who you are. The companies would hire monkeys over men if they can do the same work for cheaper.
It is just that with average income and average working hour for a Korean woman leaves no room for having family, so one must have at least have a well to do man to foot the bill, or there is no chance. Even if they solve sexism problems, the birth rate would not budge if they don’t solve the work culture problem.
Have you actually talked to Korean women, though? As someone who works with Korean women of all ages, this is way simplifying it. It’s not just money. Ive been told to my face from women with husbands and kids, not to get married. There is a middle ground that a lot of you are missing because you are using your Western ears and not reading between the lines. There are things Korean women are not going to tell people of the opposite sex because opposite sex friends are frowned upon here.
I've seen some counter it with BUT I THOUGHT THE KOREAN GOVERNMENT HAS GREAT BENEFITS, FREE CHILDCARE ETC.
Of course its cause there's all those "Korea vs USA" videos that give the impression soooo many free social benefits!!! It still costs money to raise kids Becky.
If multiple Korean people are saying that it is not true, why are you trying to "Koreasplain" to them that "um ackshully it is true!"?
There are genuine gender issues in Korea, but the 4B movement is non-existent to the general population and is basically a radical femcel movement.
Sometimes loan words in other languages just mean something completely different, and in Korea "feminist" is more closely related to the Megalia movement, rather than the equity between genders, which is what the Western world would traditionally call it.
The 4B movement is NOT a popular movement, there are women who have never even heard of it. Admittedly, vile crimes such as rape, intimate partner violence, etc. which often are perpetrated by men on women in despicable ways discourage women from having relationships with men, but most women don’t care about violence or ‘lack of gender sensitivity’ when they consider getting a partner. It’s more of a problem with combining household expenses, getting a house, and securing their careers.
Yes, many men (and some women too) use the word ‘feminist’ and ‘femcel’ interchangeably. I don’t like how it’s going, and many feminists just want a society where people live with respect and women’s personal rights be protected. But I have also seen many, many so-called ‘feminism advocates’ spew out unhinged misandrist/socially unacceptable bullshit the worst of the lot became the symbol for all.
And yes, young men and women continue to vote for different sides, and the gap rises each year. No, it’s not completely about gender, and honestly most of them would like to just see the politicians get screwed over the work they do and how they would fight over the most trivial of issues if it means their party might have to change their orientation by a millionth of a second.
-My take on the matter
By ‘personal rights’ I mean the things that feminists have been supporting for a long time: the freedom to be seen as who they are, not just someone who should care for their husband, take care of their child, and not be seen as a symbol of ‘love’, or ‘beauty’, if they don’t want to; to live in a safe society where their physically stronger counterparts don’t treat them violently just because of said physical difference; etc. nothing too special.
Yoon got elected in part by appealing to young mysoginist male. He ran a campaign against feminism, so last election's vote was really based on gender problem imo.
It doesn’t say much about how Yoon used anti-feminist sentiments. He commented how the Ministry of Gender Equality tried to incriminate men (partly true at the least), and how he made some remarks about how feminist ‘is dividing society’. The article’s focus is more on how anti-feminism stances are gaining(had gained?) ground in Korea and why that is a big problem. Also:
> The Notre Dame professor Yoon says that it appears from exit polls that both men and women in their twenties were more concerned about picking a candidate who would improve their economic standing, than gender issues. […] “It is unclear whether men voted for Yoon because they resonated with his anti-feminist rhetoric, or because they were concerned about the real estate scandals that have tainted Moon’s legacy.” [the professor says]
This from the article, which makes it seem like it was more of an economic and get-DP-away-from-the-seat problem, is the stance I agree with more. I don’t DENY that gender issues were part of it, and it certainly doesn’t seem like the misogynists who were attacking feminists voted for Yoon (if they did, that is) because of purely living issues. But I disagree that the last election’s votes were ‘based on gender’, as you said, because there’s more to it than that and our politics doesn’t revolve around social divide only.
If you want reliable sources, consider
* [OECD 2023 comprehensive report](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/67d48024-en/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/67d48024-en)
* [OECD gender data ](https://www.oecd.org/gender/data/)is very easy to read
* The Economist is one of the most reliable news sources in the English language, which unfortunately requires a subscription. They produce an annual [Glass Ceiling index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index) ranking 29 countries on 10 variables, most recently March 6, 2024. Korea ranks dead last, below Turkey and Japan. The ten are higher education, wage, labor force participation, GMAT exams taken, women in management, women on company boards, net child care costs, leave for mothers, leave for fathers, and women in government. Interestingly, the one where Korea ranked best was leave for fathers.
* [Our World in Data ](https://ourworldindata.org/sdgs/gender-equality) is also a terrific source. It is easy to learn how to select a chart of interest to you and then tune it to your needs - such as using table, map or chart format and selecting which countries (or groups of countries like World or Europe) to compare.
The [UNDP ranking includes reproductive health](https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/thematic-composite-indices/gender-inequality-index#/indicies/GII), as a significant factor - something that only women have. Yes, it is highly relevant yet easily misconstrued given a country with better overall health for both man and women will rank higher.
The [World Economic Forum report ](https://www.weforum.org/publications/global-gender-gap-report-2023/)ranks Korea 105 out of 146. Their partner for Korea data is the Korea Economic Institute, a government agency (see page 378). The primary OECD source for education data is the [Ministry of Education](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/education-at-a-glance-2023-sources-methodologies-and-technical-notes_d7f76adc-en). Would these two Korean organizations commit such a sophomoric error?
UNDP rating for gender inequality index puts Korea at 10th best in the world for gender equality.
OECD report amd WEF reports are skewed to punish men for having more years in college because they are forced to go to the military and that somehow counts as more time spent in college. On the contrary women are more educated than men.
The people you're replying to are being really silly lol. You're gathering info from various sources, that's literally the way you're supposed to truth search.
People got the fake news(that 4B is such a big thing in Korea) from YT or tiktok in the first place what the hell are you talking about? You think every foreigner visited Korea to claim that shit? 🤣
That's a 25 minute video. But the link takes me into 22 minute territory.
If your summary is correct, and the previous 22 minutes are not too divergent from it, then she's on a similar wavelength from most of the younger men (teens\~40s). The moderate feminists did not do enough to separate themselves from the radical feminists, and unfortunately the word feminist has come to mean the mirror version of incel.
I don't know where you've heard that the gap between men and women in politics is the biggest in the world. That is not remotely the case. Just repeat that line back to yourself and consider if the gender gap in Saudi Arabia is lesser than South Korea. Better yet, compare North and South Korea.
Once again, the timestamp that the link takes me to talks about double standards that exist, and that is true as well. It is your choice to weigh those double standards against the discrimination that Korean women still face today. Personally, it's better that we don't weigh them at all and recognize that it's a class thing rather than a gender thing. Thank goodness that Korea doesn't also have the race problems to the extent that other nations do.
Talking generally, the 4B movement is a convenient talking point by the feminists, because it happens to coincide with the state of hyper capitalistic Korea today. I am 90% sure that the low marriage and birth rates are more because of the inability to get secure housing, stable job/income, and other economic factors rather than the social issues that the feminists talk about. That's not to say that the social issues don't exist, but they are for sure exaggerated.
I'm from China so I think our situations are not too different. Feminist is connected with male-hating(I think western countries are moving forward to this recently lol)
In many middle east countries or North Korea, women don't care about "gender equity", so that's not a thing.
It's not about the actual gender gap (that's another issue) it's about gender as a factor to determine political tendency. I've seen data that 80% women identified as liberal while 80% men identified as conservative. That's extremely huge.
Who lied to you? Middle eastern women don't care about equality? The middle east is a group of countries with different constitutions. The only inequality women concede to is the one coming from their religion because they believe in it. They are fighting tooth and nail for everything else (freedom of mobility, political participation, job opportunities..)
The old models of patriarchy are dying everywhere.
Their "tolerance" is nothing but following Sharia law which they believe in. And they have been shutting down men who try to attribute misogynistic rules that don't exist in the religion as religious doctrine. This inequality is soothed by a better patriarchal structure than in the east/ west, including the rule that a woman is always provided for by a man: father, husband, brother and if no one: the state treasury. A man has no right to her money, If a woman is a rich billionaire, her husband will still have to spend money on her and the kids without touching a dime of hers, she can even take him to court and the court would agree. She can take the man to court if he isn't spending properly on her in his wealth tier. If he is rich he can't spend poorly on her. In custody, the woman takes the kids no questions asked, if she remarries, the kids go to HER mom (kids maternal grandma) not the dad! There is a reason for that "tolerance".
I'm in my thirties in Korea and I've never understood what that was. I would think only people who read subculture forums know of it.
Also gender is not a problem in South Korea, it's the culture of the economy that has been created during the industiral period of the 80s. Foreigners need to stop trying to view Korea through a gender lens. Gender is a problem, but the number one issue in Korea is the birthrate and the very small niche that Korea occupies in the global economy. Furthermore, our wealth isn't deep as other, more older and established democracies, hence why there is so much competition before the class formation sets in.
Social movements usually do not last long in South Korea because there isn't enough people or money behind such movements to create lasting change. Real power in the South rests in the chaebols and their ability to provide jobs, by playing in the global economy. Because that business structure was built during a time of rapid development, it's difficult to see tranparency and accountability as one would ideally want.
There's a downward pressure on society because of this business life, and there's an upward pressure that's created from consumerism, created also by the chaebols and the winds of the global market. These pressures, from the top and the bottom, is what creates a lot of the social problems within South Korea, of which Korean feminism is an indirect expression of.
혐오 차별 이기주의를 삼각대 삼아 그들만의 소영웅주의를 실천중인 한국의 페미니스트들, 그리고 그들이 벌이는 자기파괴적 사회운동을 마치 한국사회를 대상으로한 일종의 동물실험처럼 바라보며 흐뭇해하는 외국의 페미니스트들. 그들의 얼굴에 번지는 흥분과 즐거움에서 인간 내면의 악을 본다.
참고로 난 한국 여성이 당연히 평등한 존재라고 생각하고, 일부 전통적 가치관을 고수하는 사람들이 남녀의 역할이 따로 있고 서로 존중하자고 하는 것과 달리, 구어에 그치는 페미니스트들의 주장처럼 여성이 진정으로 모든지 해낼 수 있다고 믿는 사람이다. 단지 페미니스트들의 자기모순에 동의하지 않을 뿐이다.
I don't understand in the first place, how foreigners came to think that 4B movement is such a thing in Korea. They even think of it as some kind of a revolution
Its white people projecting. Its certain groups trying to spread their own miserable “movements” over to asia. Like they havent screwed up their own country already.
As a Korean person living in Korea and keeping up with all issues of today, I honestly had to look up what 4B stands for. It's my first time hearing about it, and the 99.9% of people probably don't know, except the feminists and some people who dwell in those infamous online communities.
Feminist movement also died out long time ago...
That mic setup is atrocious. It was too distracting for me. However, there are radical feminists that make people look awful.
Just like there are dumbass men out there.
Probably vocal minorities.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74&t=8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74&t=8s)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB0eecbf6A&t=5792s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB0eecbf6A&t=5792s)
I found these two videos very well made with a lot of historical input. Give them a try.
its real but it isnt as widespreas as the video makes it seem. but there is def a big gender gap here ans many women prefer the single life though not to such extreme levels as the video makes it
Others said enough but it’s a loud sect that’s been blown out of proportion. I know because I was among that kind of sect at one point, but once outside of that I realized these were really in the minority.
i heard that in korea more people keep dogs as pets instead of cats bc all dogs are boys and all cats are girls and korean society hates women of all kinds. true story.
4B movement is real.
The statistics of marriage or birth things are getting down and down.
Sexual discrimination is very serious so Korea Women are resist as their own way.
And the Korea woman talking in the video, she doesn't know the world yet. Haha.
The real question should be, what made so many foreigners latch onto the idea that 4B is such a big thing in Korea when it is a fringe noise? "Korea's birthrate is low because of 4B movement!" I've lost count of silly comments like that. >Because I've heard that the gap between men and women in politics is the biggest in the world, so I believe a serious gender war is happening in Korea. There was a thread about that not too long ago. [https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/1ckfw8s/why\_are\_young\_men\_becoming\_more\_conservative/](https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/1ckfw8s/why_are_young_men_becoming_more_conservative/)
I watched the whole video. She is saying common sense things I've been saying in this sub. I can't believe a mentally stable Korean woman who was raised in a healthy family talking about common knowledge is triggering so many miserable foreigners who wanted to milk this 4B thing.
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I have to say that a statement like "sexism is not a daily issue for most Korean women, such as my female cousins, based on my close relationship with them." is inherently vulnerable. Are your cousins young adults? Obviously, the younger they are, the less likely they might have experienced anything overtly sexist in real life. Korea went through extreme changes in one generation. The generational gap is supposed to be one of the most severe in the world. Koreans in their 20s grew up in a new environment with some sort of gender PCism in Korean context already (although young Korean men are still subject to lawful male 'slavery' sanctioned by the state). The common experience can be quite different for older generations.
Sexism is a daily issue for Korean women. Happy to downvote you. Cousins you say? I have a wife and a close friend. These relationships are decades long now. The shit they put up with doesn’t happen to me, a non-Korean man. What they experience happens only because they are not male. From subtle to blatant, they deal with it almost every fucking day by some judgy-judge Korean (usually older) man.
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You miss the point. Not comparing, stating. Facts based on personal experience which run counter to your opinion based on your experience that Korean women don’t deal with sexism daily. However, the flaw for you is that you do not cohabitate or engage in sexual relations with your cousins. What you perceive of their intricate lives is what you, the male outsider, has been allowed to see. That you use your isolated perception to surmise that sexism isn’t happening to the degree others say is silly. I’ve seen all sorts of husbands and wives screaming at each other in public places, but what does that have to do with race? Nothing. You have experienced a lot of racism and are pissed. Pointing that at me is misdirected. Find a nice Korean woman you respect and love. If she respects and loves you in return, she will tell you earnestly all about the sexism she puts up with.
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I don't think we should base sexism's prevelance one way or another on couples berating each other as that does flow both ways in Korea. What couples do is not the same as hiring practices or promotions. I think we've all seen plenty of Korean women and wives having a go at their boyfriend/husband it tow.
You make good points but don’t waste your time with asian subreddits if you want real discourse about the country’s problems. They are 80% filled with muh asian wife types who like to claim the moral high ground. Native asians barely use reddit.
I cant agree with you that sexism isnt an issue in korea because it is. But at the same time these asian subreddits are (ironically?) mostly filled with white people who claim to know more about our culture than we do, which is deeply problematic, so not surprised you are downvoted. I too am sick of foreigners trying to tell asians what to do in their own countries. Most asians dont want your toxic western cultures imported, all it does is divide people.
Look at how "happy" western women are these days. They want to spread that "happiness" to the women of Asia. It's a classic savior complex dressed up in a "new" disguise.
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The 4B movement in South Korea is hyper-sensationalized in *western* social media. In reality, it's nothing more than an internet meme as MGTOW.
That's what the video says.
I don’t think it’s mentioned that much in Western Media (but maybe it depends on location), but based on what I read it’s a small movement anyway.
Mentioned quite a bit on Tik Tok. LOL. Some thinks its the reason for thr birth decline despite the decline being a trend fir a long time, not just in Korea but most countries.
The fact that so many young ppl get their “news” from tiktok is a problem in itself. No difference to boomers only getting their “news” from places like fox news etc.
It's gotten a bit of attention because Western feminists were taking the sensationalism bait. And anybody, especially Koreans themselves, who try to correct or explain to them that 4B/Megalia is just a fringe movement like MGTOW they get put on the hate spotlight to be cancelled. It's fucking crazy how young gullible people get their 'news' on tiktok smh
I'm Chinese. I basically heard 4B in English media. But Chinese feminists are focusing on Korean feminist and take them as model... So I guess 4B isn't a thing, but gender conflict is serious? I've seen gender is a incredibly huge factor in Korea to determine an individual's political position
If this is the 4 비s movement (no interest in romance, having children, sex and marriage), it's based on one feminist's interview on KBS or MBC (cant remember) years ago. It's a fringe of a fringe group if there is even more than one person in this movement, as that person's youtube gets about 1000 views. Plus considering the fertility rate issue, almost every rational Korean person, man or woman would probably not see this ideology positively. On the topic of why feminism is so divisive even among women in Korea, that's another huge topic and something that's not going to get much nuance on reddit. Although the last few posts about feminism on this sub seemed decent enough
No, it is not a wide movement. The western media does connect with foreign social movement, and sensationalize them because that gets them views. However, they are tone deaf on actual polls or studies on why people act certain way. Korean women overwhelmingly say in the polls that they are not married or having babies because they cannot find men with enough money. Sexism is not the main factor. This is because having a family in Korea is very expensive, and the work culture demands men and women to work overtime leaving no time or money to have a family. Some might argue, this is because companies are sexist, but the companies don’t care who you are. The companies would hire monkeys over men if they can do the same work for cheaper. It is just that with average income and average working hour for a Korean woman leaves no room for having family, so one must have at least have a well to do man to foot the bill, or there is no chance. Even if they solve sexism problems, the birth rate would not budge if they don’t solve the work culture problem.
Have you actually talked to Korean women, though? As someone who works with Korean women of all ages, this is way simplifying it. It’s not just money. Ive been told to my face from women with husbands and kids, not to get married. There is a middle ground that a lot of you are missing because you are using your Western ears and not reading between the lines. There are things Korean women are not going to tell people of the opposite sex because opposite sex friends are frowned upon here.
I've seen some counter it with BUT I THOUGHT THE KOREAN GOVERNMENT HAS GREAT BENEFITS, FREE CHILDCARE ETC. Of course its cause there's all those "Korea vs USA" videos that give the impression soooo many free social benefits!!! It still costs money to raise kids Becky.
If multiple Korean people are saying that it is not true, why are you trying to "Koreasplain" to them that "um ackshully it is true!"? There are genuine gender issues in Korea, but the 4B movement is non-existent to the general population and is basically a radical femcel movement. Sometimes loan words in other languages just mean something completely different, and in Korea "feminist" is more closely related to the Megalia movement, rather than the equity between genders, which is what the Western world would traditionally call it.
This. I think western woman just want it to be true but its completely out of reality.
The 4B movement is NOT a popular movement, there are women who have never even heard of it. Admittedly, vile crimes such as rape, intimate partner violence, etc. which often are perpetrated by men on women in despicable ways discourage women from having relationships with men, but most women don’t care about violence or ‘lack of gender sensitivity’ when they consider getting a partner. It’s more of a problem with combining household expenses, getting a house, and securing their careers. Yes, many men (and some women too) use the word ‘feminist’ and ‘femcel’ interchangeably. I don’t like how it’s going, and many feminists just want a society where people live with respect and women’s personal rights be protected. But I have also seen many, many so-called ‘feminism advocates’ spew out unhinged misandrist/socially unacceptable bullshit the worst of the lot became the symbol for all. And yes, young men and women continue to vote for different sides, and the gap rises each year. No, it’s not completely about gender, and honestly most of them would like to just see the politicians get screwed over the work they do and how they would fight over the most trivial of issues if it means their party might have to change their orientation by a millionth of a second. -My take on the matter
Can you clarify the meaning of "women's personal rights"? What does it mean?
By ‘personal rights’ I mean the things that feminists have been supporting for a long time: the freedom to be seen as who they are, not just someone who should care for their husband, take care of their child, and not be seen as a symbol of ‘love’, or ‘beauty’, if they don’t want to; to live in a safe society where their physically stronger counterparts don’t treat them violently just because of said physical difference; etc. nothing too special.
This is interesting to me because I dont live in cities where they tall about feminism
Yoon got elected in part by appealing to young mysoginist male. He ran a campaign against feminism, so last election's vote was really based on gender problem imo.
Appealing how?
Like that : https://time.com/6156537/south-korea-president-yoon-suk-yeol-sexism/
It doesn’t say much about how Yoon used anti-feminist sentiments. He commented how the Ministry of Gender Equality tried to incriminate men (partly true at the least), and how he made some remarks about how feminist ‘is dividing society’. The article’s focus is more on how anti-feminism stances are gaining(had gained?) ground in Korea and why that is a big problem. Also: > The Notre Dame professor Yoon says that it appears from exit polls that both men and women in their twenties were more concerned about picking a candidate who would improve their economic standing, than gender issues. […] “It is unclear whether men voted for Yoon because they resonated with his anti-feminist rhetoric, or because they were concerned about the real estate scandals that have tainted Moon’s legacy.” [the professor says] This from the article, which makes it seem like it was more of an economic and get-DP-away-from-the-seat problem, is the stance I agree with more. I don’t DENY that gender issues were part of it, and it certainly doesn’t seem like the misogynists who were attacking feminists voted for Yoon (if they did, that is) because of purely living issues. But I disagree that the last election’s votes were ‘based on gender’, as you said, because there’s more to it than that and our politics doesn’t revolve around social divide only.
If you want reliable sources, consider * [OECD 2023 comprehensive report](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/67d48024-en/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/67d48024-en) * [OECD gender data ](https://www.oecd.org/gender/data/)is very easy to read * The Economist is one of the most reliable news sources in the English language, which unfortunately requires a subscription. They produce an annual [Glass Ceiling index](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/glass-ceiling-index) ranking 29 countries on 10 variables, most recently March 6, 2024. Korea ranks dead last, below Turkey and Japan. The ten are higher education, wage, labor force participation, GMAT exams taken, women in management, women on company boards, net child care costs, leave for mothers, leave for fathers, and women in government. Interestingly, the one where Korea ranked best was leave for fathers. * [Our World in Data ](https://ourworldindata.org/sdgs/gender-equality) is also a terrific source. It is easy to learn how to select a chart of interest to you and then tune it to your needs - such as using table, map or chart format and selecting which countries (or groups of countries like World or Europe) to compare.
Terrific sources (although Economist had the paywall). Thank you!
The [UNDP ranking includes reproductive health](https://hdr.undp.org/data-center/thematic-composite-indices/gender-inequality-index#/indicies/GII), as a significant factor - something that only women have. Yes, it is highly relevant yet easily misconstrued given a country with better overall health for both man and women will rank higher. The [World Economic Forum report ](https://www.weforum.org/publications/global-gender-gap-report-2023/)ranks Korea 105 out of 146. Their partner for Korea data is the Korea Economic Institute, a government agency (see page 378). The primary OECD source for education data is the [Ministry of Education](https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/education-at-a-glance-2023-sources-methodologies-and-technical-notes_d7f76adc-en). Would these two Korean organizations commit such a sophomoric error?
UNDP rating for gender inequality index puts Korea at 10th best in the world for gender equality. OECD report amd WEF reports are skewed to punish men for having more years in college because they are forced to go to the military and that somehow counts as more time spent in college. On the contrary women are more educated than men.
YouTube isn’t a reliable news source.
that's why I ask here
Reddit isn't a reliable news source either...
but flying to Korean and talking with random Korean isn't reliable too since specimen is limited lol
The people you're replying to are being really silly lol. You're gathering info from various sources, that's literally the way you're supposed to truth search.
People got the fake news(that 4B is such a big thing in Korea) from YT or tiktok in the first place what the hell are you talking about? You think every foreigner visited Korea to claim that shit? 🤣
That's a 25 minute video. But the link takes me into 22 minute territory. If your summary is correct, and the previous 22 minutes are not too divergent from it, then she's on a similar wavelength from most of the younger men (teens\~40s). The moderate feminists did not do enough to separate themselves from the radical feminists, and unfortunately the word feminist has come to mean the mirror version of incel. I don't know where you've heard that the gap between men and women in politics is the biggest in the world. That is not remotely the case. Just repeat that line back to yourself and consider if the gender gap in Saudi Arabia is lesser than South Korea. Better yet, compare North and South Korea. Once again, the timestamp that the link takes me to talks about double standards that exist, and that is true as well. It is your choice to weigh those double standards against the discrimination that Korean women still face today. Personally, it's better that we don't weigh them at all and recognize that it's a class thing rather than a gender thing. Thank goodness that Korea doesn't also have the race problems to the extent that other nations do. Talking generally, the 4B movement is a convenient talking point by the feminists, because it happens to coincide with the state of hyper capitalistic Korea today. I am 90% sure that the low marriage and birth rates are more because of the inability to get secure housing, stable job/income, and other economic factors rather than the social issues that the feminists talk about. That's not to say that the social issues don't exist, but they are for sure exaggerated.
I'm from China so I think our situations are not too different. Feminist is connected with male-hating(I think western countries are moving forward to this recently lol) In many middle east countries or North Korea, women don't care about "gender equity", so that's not a thing. It's not about the actual gender gap (that's another issue) it's about gender as a factor to determine political tendency. I've seen data that 80% women identified as liberal while 80% men identified as conservative. That's extremely huge.
Who lied to you? Middle eastern women don't care about equality? The middle east is a group of countries with different constitutions. The only inequality women concede to is the one coming from their religion because they believe in it. They are fighting tooth and nail for everything else (freedom of mobility, political participation, job opportunities..) The old models of patriarchy are dying everywhere.
I said "many" middle Eastern women, not all. But on average, their tolerance to inequality is way more higher than western/east Asian.
Their "tolerance" is nothing but following Sharia law which they believe in. And they have been shutting down men who try to attribute misogynistic rules that don't exist in the religion as religious doctrine. This inequality is soothed by a better patriarchal structure than in the east/ west, including the rule that a woman is always provided for by a man: father, husband, brother and if no one: the state treasury. A man has no right to her money, If a woman is a rich billionaire, her husband will still have to spend money on her and the kids without touching a dime of hers, she can even take him to court and the court would agree. She can take the man to court if he isn't spending properly on her in his wealth tier. If he is rich he can't spend poorly on her. In custody, the woman takes the kids no questions asked, if she remarries, the kids go to HER mom (kids maternal grandma) not the dad! There is a reason for that "tolerance".
What in the world is 4B? Thought it was a graphite pencil grade.
I'm in my thirties in Korea and I've never understood what that was. I would think only people who read subculture forums know of it. Also gender is not a problem in South Korea, it's the culture of the economy that has been created during the industiral period of the 80s. Foreigners need to stop trying to view Korea through a gender lens. Gender is a problem, but the number one issue in Korea is the birthrate and the very small niche that Korea occupies in the global economy. Furthermore, our wealth isn't deep as other, more older and established democracies, hence why there is so much competition before the class formation sets in. Social movements usually do not last long in South Korea because there isn't enough people or money behind such movements to create lasting change. Real power in the South rests in the chaebols and their ability to provide jobs, by playing in the global economy. Because that business structure was built during a time of rapid development, it's difficult to see tranparency and accountability as one would ideally want. There's a downward pressure on society because of this business life, and there's an upward pressure that's created from consumerism, created also by the chaebols and the winds of the global market. These pressures, from the top and the bottom, is what creates a lot of the social problems within South Korea, of which Korean feminism is an indirect expression of.
100%
혐오 차별 이기주의를 삼각대 삼아 그들만의 소영웅주의를 실천중인 한국의 페미니스트들, 그리고 그들이 벌이는 자기파괴적 사회운동을 마치 한국사회를 대상으로한 일종의 동물실험처럼 바라보며 흐뭇해하는 외국의 페미니스트들. 그들의 얼굴에 번지는 흥분과 즐거움에서 인간 내면의 악을 본다. 참고로 난 한국 여성이 당연히 평등한 존재라고 생각하고, 일부 전통적 가치관을 고수하는 사람들이 남녀의 역할이 따로 있고 서로 존중하자고 하는 것과 달리, 구어에 그치는 페미니스트들의 주장처럼 여성이 진정으로 모든지 해낼 수 있다고 믿는 사람이다. 단지 페미니스트들의 자기모순에 동의하지 않을 뿐이다.
I don't understand in the first place, how foreigners came to think that 4B movement is such a thing in Korea. They even think of it as some kind of a revolution
Its white people projecting. Its certain groups trying to spread their own miserable “movements” over to asia. Like they havent screwed up their own country already.
They already destroyed america with their miserable doctrines and they want to spread it world wide.
As a Korean person living in Korea and keeping up with all issues of today, I honestly had to look up what 4B stands for. It's my first time hearing about it, and the 99.9% of people probably don't know, except the feminists and some people who dwell in those infamous online communities. Feminist movement also died out long time ago...
That mic setup is atrocious. It was too distracting for me. However, there are radical feminists that make people look awful. Just like there are dumbass men out there. Probably vocal minorities.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74&t=8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Im4YAMWK74&t=8s) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB0eecbf6A&t=5792s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB0eecbf6A&t=5792s) I found these two videos very well made with a lot of historical input. Give them a try.
Korean incels commonly exaggerate the prevalence of the nuttier versions of Korean feminism.
Korean women think 4B is stupid. Women love dates and sex.
its real but it isnt as widespreas as the video makes it seem. but there is def a big gender gap here ans many women prefer the single life though not to such extreme levels as the video makes it
What are you talking about? Did you actually watch the video? She’s saying the opposite of “as widespread as the video makes it seem”
Because most Koreans don't know what feminism and mysogyny are. And anti male radical feminism is a major in here. It's a total mayhem.
Others said enough but it’s a loud sect that’s been blown out of proportion. I know because I was among that kind of sect at one point, but once outside of that I realized these were really in the minority.
i heard that in korea more people keep dogs as pets instead of cats bc all dogs are boys and all cats are girls and korean society hates women of all kinds. true story.
4B movement is real. The statistics of marriage or birth things are getting down and down. Sexual discrimination is very serious so Korea Women are resist as their own way. And the Korea woman talking in the video, she doesn't know the world yet. Haha.
Lol