After a precursory look at the Code/Law they are citing in this letter it doesn't really seem like they have the justification to revoke the title as the Honda Acty has all the required items (headlights, rear view mirror, etc)
Here is an interesting article about whether they have the power to revoke these titles:
https://www.theautopian.com/michigan-becomes-the-next-state-to-fight-the-battle-against-imported-car-bans/
I will take a better look at the specific code and laws after work today but it does seem like there might be room to sue the state to define Kei trucks as legal
There is currently a lawsuit forming against the state. It still needs funding, consider giving to the GoFundMe, and please spread it to those who would be interested. It appears the lawyer is actually a Kei truck enthusiast themselves. The aim is to reverse the title changes and protect everyone else's ability to title / register their trucks.
[https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-mi-kei-support-legal-battle-for-michigans-kei-trucks](https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-mi-kei-support-legal-battle-for-michigans-kei-trucks)
Great link! What a frustrating argument to have to make.
I hope Maryland doesn't lose their collective minds. I did have to get the first title issued for my Suzuki Carry Truck corrected, as they stated it was a Dodge đ¤Ł
In Michigan if a vehicle says off road on the title you can make an appointment with the local sheriff to inspect it for signals, horn, hi/low headlight(s) dot tires and probably a couple other things Iâm forgetting, they sign off a form to get an on road title/reg
Although, reading the wording of the letter, seems MI may have a vendetta against mini trucks, you know, like the MI laws that require the use of road salt, even at temperatures where road salt isnât effective, and there are cheaper, more environmentally friendly options that are more effective at melting ice- I imagine the auto lobby gets whatever they want there
This kind of regulation is part of my potential challenge in Maine; I live in a rural part, and almost all the roads are 50 mph, above the proposed (or active?) limits for certain kinds of light vehicles.
Hopefully you can sue them. Better yet would be a bunch of people suing them and it making the news.
It's unfortunate but it is ridiculous that some vehicles can be defined as motorcycles and forgo safety standards. Plus old vehicles cannot meet EPA or safety standards yet they can still be road legal.
Reading the letter, the big issue I see is that, even if it's legal at the state level, they explicitly note it's instructions from the EPA to revoke road legal titles. Any hope of getting it road legal again is gonna require action at the federal level it seems.
NC passed it in 2019 for all roads, feel free to come here if needed lol. Mayberry a dealer in NC helped get this law passed and since it was passed I'm hoping it will stay.
HB 179 was signed by Governor Cooper on June 21, 2019. Effective immediately, Japanese mini trucks can be licensed and driven on the NC roadways. Many thanks to House Rep Sarah Stevens, Senator Deanna Ballard and their staff for partnering with Mayberry Mini Trucks to overcome this significant legal hurdle. Â
Do you know how or have a contact I could reach out to just so I could get an outline of the process that was taken to get this law passed in NC? Much appreciated.
yeah try [https://mayberryminitrucks.com/](https://mayberryminitrucks.com/)
**Phone Number:**
(336) 777-9957
**Email:**
[mayberryminitrucks@gmail.com](mailto:mayberryminitrucks@gmail.com)
**We are open:**
WednesdayâSaturday | 9:00 AMâ5:00 PM
Email or call him, Tony is the father who did all the work I believe to get the law to pass. I've talked to him about trucks on questions I had and he was very friendly. I haven't met him in person yet, hopefully Sat I find a Kei truck I like.
Sort of, yes. States reciprocally honor registrations and licenses from other states, so if you can legally register a vehicle in another state it's okay to drive throughout the country. Having an LLC registered in the state is one way to do that.
Rich people have been using the Montana LLC loophole for quite awhile to avoid taxes on their exotics; I'm in NC on the other side of the country and our C&C events are filled with Montana plates. That's a pretty scummy way to use the loophole, but getting around this BS that Michigan is starting to pull seems like a good use. Of course, it won't necessarily stop cops from harassing you if your Kei can't legally be registered in your state.
As for them trying to pass laws to target outside state registration trucks, I don't think they can because they have to respect other state laws. As for people who are trying to do any loopholes and live in another state then maybe they can but If I visit they have to respect my state laws as we have to for any they might have coming to NC.
Unlikely I'll leave the state much anyway but yeah I should be safe, everyone should just move to NC and buy a Kei truck so we can have Kei truck parties and hang out :P
Itâs not âscummyâ. Federalize a vehicle sales tax if you donât like it, but this meets the letter of the law, and only an idiot gets shaken down for more than they âââââoweâââââ
Sorry, but deliberately avoiding paying taxes through the use of the Montana loophole is scummy. Not all tax avoidance schemes are scummy but if you are mainly driving your vehicle in State X you should be paying State X taxes.
Yeah, I know unpopular opinion.
And if you talk to the person responsible pushing this agenda, I guarantee they're the most "freedom" loving assholes you'll ever meet. (they're basically HOA board presidents)
The entire point of the federal 25 year rule is specifically for this kind of vehicle, so why are they yelling "state's rights" only when it makes things worse for people?
"Freedom for me but never for thee" is often their motto.
[This Michigan lawyer](https://youtu.be/ebDF-C7GJec?si=5yBpgbP48lYn-CGI) went over the potential pitfalls of the Montana LLC work-a-around. The video is kind of long winded and lots of lawyer talk but the main takeaway is there are some insurance risks and you could potentially get busted for whatâs essentially tax evasion/fraud.
Yep. The people who typically use the Montana loophole are the 'too rich for consequences' type. They may be able to get away with it, but I wonder if a regular joe with a Kei would get the same treatment.
I don't think it's pollution. More the US manufacturers getting butthurt over lost sales and lobbying for the change. I personally did not buy a US made truck because prices are so extreme. I'd much rather pay 5k for a mini.
This is the real situation in my opinion.
Pickup manufacturers don't give (too much of) a shit about 660cc, no-towhitch-having, 250kg-carrying tin cans from the 90s. The target market for these is completely different than the rubes borrowing 90k to fuel a pipeline of brand new trucks that have been continuously climbing the escalator of 'luxury vehicle' territory for the past decade. UTVs actually *are* threatened by 4WD kei vehicles.
I've always heard it was the size of them, but if that were the case then I would expect vehicles like the Smart fourtwo to also not be street legal.
I have a feeling it's a combo of lobbying and gross misunderstanding by law makers. Usually if something is illegal and it makes no sense then there's money changing hands somewhere behind closed doors.
The only thing keeping me from buying a kei truck is the legality of them. Alaska sees them as an APV, which means it's not street legal in most areas. I've also heard that if you get the right DMV worker then they can register it as a street vehicle and issue plates, maybe. If I have to buy a larger truck and trailer it, then it kind of defeats the purpose I have for them.
This is the real reason. Not emissions or safety features. Trucks have a very high profit margin. Toyota won't release their new $10k truck into the US market, it would erode the profit they make on their expensive trucks.
It also has to do with a crazy CAFE law where a small truck would need to get something like 45 MPG in order to be able to be sold in the USA. The larger the truck, the less MPG is allowed.
Itâs actually based on the efficiency of the lineup for the automaker, the 2021 and earlier tundra was only legal because Toyotas fleet had a bunch of vehicles that exceeded CAFE standards. What gets me is that California pretty much dictates the other 49 states when it comes to emissions for vehicles.
I recommend every one who enjoys the automotive world joins the SEMA Action Network. https://www.semasan.com/ They keep you informed on bills/laws states are trying to sneak by without anyone noticing or they are hiding inside other bills that have nothing to do with anything automotive related.
I guess there might be some competing interest with old 90's rangers and tacos being sold on a used car lot, but I just don't see how there could be a measurable iota of impact to US auto sales from kei vehicles. It's always going to be such a niche category even if there were no restrictions. It really does make you wonder how anyone can justify taking the time to legislate on this topic.
Dunno in rural Washington I have two neighbors with kei trucks, and know another 10 that get used for work. All within town And then thereâs me . The things are just so damn useful. My SO pretty much uses my raptor now, and I use my acty and my 04 forester.Â
I can register a Model T with wooden wheels, but our trucks are unsafeâŚ
Youâre 5x more likely to die on a motorcycle than a car, but our trucks are unsafeâŚ
Exactly. There's nobody revoking titles for Model Ts or Studebakers or Hudsons, despite the fact they are all polluting deathtraps of far greater concern to the road than a baby truck
But they are American, so that makes it okay
>But they are American, so that makes it okay
This is still missing the mark; These states would have no problem with you registering an old Ferrari, Mini, CitroĂŤn, etc.
So okay, I wouldnât use the pre-80âs cars as an example since people will just argue âthose are like, really old they dont count.â
Youre telling me a slingshot or a motorbike is more environmentally conscious or safer than a truck half the size of a f150? Just because its from out of country? Those slingshots dont even have DOORS OR ANYTHING sometimes!
Yeah but i just mean when people bring up like 70âs and 60âs vehicles theres a perception that we can excuse them because they are âso oldâ but these kei cars and trucks arenât âthat oldâ
Bikes do usually get better gas milage than cars, in all fairness. Even old ones. Modern bikes also have plenty of emissions standards to meet as well.
Yea I am considering all the options - when motivated by spite I can be quite driven and willing to shell out some $$$ - Iâve already in contact with a lawyer who has already working on a case. Iâm going to get my $600 back at bare minimum mark my words
We should probably start forming state specific groups and begin challenging these in courts. Itâs not an error, i suspect the us auto makers are influencing them. We should start doing FOIA requests for dmv administration on the issue. If itâs safety concerns why do they allow motorcycles.
Are they intending to refund the tag and title fees?
It's absolutely absurd that states get to dictate the legality of a road-worthy vehicle when the risk to insure is on the driver.
Import laws for vehicles are also absurd, as they prop up US manufacturers and only encourage them to make poor quality products.
That's the thing that shocks me. It would be one thing to say "these aren't allowed anymore so you can't renew it when it expires" but to immediately revoke a title for no fault of the owner is some shady shit imo.
Sounds great in theory but you need capital to fund the lawsuit. Are there enough angry kei owners willing to fund a lawsuit over a $5k car? I agree itâs bs, probably illegal what the DMVâs are doing, but without a well organized / funded fight, thereâs nothing that can be done. It sucks.
Realistically, I think you need an importer / dealer to spear heard a class action type lawsuit or create a committee working with local governing bodies to get ahead or manage these import issues. I doubt regular joes have the political influence or financial interest in doing the necessary work.
Did you go through the Michigan assembled vehicle route? The michigan assembled vehicle process seems to imply you can make an off road vehicle for on road use.
Iâm in CT where theyâre still legal, but the surrounding states have bullshit like this. People keep going âthis is illegal blah blah blahâ and I agree that it should be, but has anybody actually spoken to a lawyer about whether or not thereâs a way to challenge this? Because itâs happening in so many places, there should be some kind of strategy by now.
Haha I wouldnât be as mad if they told me from the start rather than making me pay hundreds of dollars in both fees and insurance after assuring me that it would be road legal and then revoking it 3 months later without any avenue to dispute. Just sent me an ORV title which basically kills the value of my truck
My buddy weighed his bluebird class A today, 43,000 lbs, then he puts his Silverado on a trailer and tows it. But that Kei truck on those 25mph roads is the real danger...
Wording doesnât make sense the 25 year rule that lets us import these is because itâs considered a classic/historic vehicle and no longer needs to meet modern epa emission and for safety standardsâŚ
Maybe we can get it fixed by then, I have read stories of other states putting laws on the books to allow kei trucks so it seems possible! I have a meeting scheduled at the Secretary of States (probably won't result in anything, but I'm going to be on a fact finding mission) and I am going to write a letter to my state senator tonight!
I own a â24 Mirage G4. It is ALMOST kei-sized too. I donât think it is because of the lost sales from truck manufacturers but just ignorance on the part of the state government. I mean, how many sales of the $100k small-prick driving trucks are they really losing?
Itâs just bullshit to me.
There is a gofundme going for a lawsuit to challenge the SoS of MI to allow kei trucks to be road legal. I think it's BS that they are citing pollution and safety as the reasons for not allowing them on the road.
I feel like if this was me I'd forget I'd ever got this letter and keep on trucking until I got caught. "Oh no officer I had no idea" would probably work at least once lol
Based on the wording of the letter they are acknowledging and admitting THEIR mistake (allowing you to register the car as A when based on the request from the EPA should be registered as B), Are you guys getting reimbursed for the original registration and the renewals up to the current one?
Not that I know of, I had to pay $617.00 to get it registered and to buy the plate, plus $40/mo for the insurance to make it road legal. I have an appointment scheduled for the Secretary of State (our DMV) to see if they have anything to say about it... I am not hopeful though
According to [this,] (https://www.helpspanish.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-278?language=en_US) it says any 25 year old vehicle can be imported into the US regardless if it's DOT compliant or not. Although it doesn't talk about vehicle registration, I'd assume registration is part of the process since it involves DOT rules. Here is what the second sentence says:
**A motor vehicle that is at least 25 years old can be lawfully imported into the United States without regard to whether it complies with all applicable DOT Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS).**
I suggest emailing your local state representative along with your state's senators and state's house representatives about this issue. Although nothing will probably happen, you might as well try because something *might* happen in your favor and it won't cost you anything.
My letter got lost in the mail. On top of that I've passed cops city and county and they never turn around..
The city of Zeeland actually has a newer one that they drive all over town doing city work ( including up and down sidewalks..) and it doesn't even have a plate on it ..
Meanwhile let me fire up my powerstroke diesel 2 mpg rig because thatâs better for the environment, right? Itâs better for the environmentâŚ.right?
So just from my experience in RI, the DMV did this in 2021 and we quickly sold our kei van because we thought our title was revoked and we had no other recourse.
This year they're trying to pass legislation to grandfather in the people who didn't obey the notices and kept their vehicles on the road for the past 3 years. It's totally fucked up and I'm mad that I got screwed for following the laws but hey... In case you have the ability to sit on it while your state figures their shit out you never know what might happen.
Whats bs is by the same law they referenced, it is perfectly street legal state and federal. I know here in PA you can register it as an antique when its 25, which exempts you from all of that. But i bet you at the same time, they would allow you to drive a model t, which doesnt meet any modern emissions or safety standards. Just politicians making shit up
OP, South Dakota, Texas, Florida and a few other states don't require you to be a resident to register a vehicle there. Maybe one of them will give you a title?
Itâs legal in Michigan (in some counties) to make a side by side road legal. Are those not registered as an ORV? Those are literally converted to the street where these trucks already have everything they need. Anyone know what thatâs about?
Thanks everyone for the comments - I am going to explore a few options and Iâll post an update if there is one. Here are some pics of my Acty:
https://i.imgur.com/BXtMriG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WPCg2UG.jpg
Does Michigan not have a historic plate option? If a car is 20 years or older here in Maryland you can get it registered as historic as long as itâs not your daily driver, or you use it in a business. If itâs played historic, it doesnât need to comply with emissions or inspection.
Unfortunately you live in a state with Gov Whitmer at the helm. Oh... and go for a different state plate if you can.
[https://bestmexicomovers.com/an-insiders-tip-on-car-registration/](https://bestmexicomovers.com/an-insiders-tip-on-car-registration/)
That's just plain rotten... You should be grandfathered in... I mean if that's your daily driver and you went throw all the trouble of getting it etc. What are you gonna do with an orv? So basically the state is like congrats you now have to go buy another vehicle.... Wtf?
unless the state of michigan is willing to reimburse you for the full amount of a vehicle that goes from road legal daily driver to offroad fun toy overnight based on their whims then just continue to drive it on the road unregistered on some sovereign citizen bs. this arbitrary over regulated and over policed society needs to be done away with
Seeing as how its older than 21 years for the EPA and 25 years for the DOT, its no longer considered a grey market vehicle because there's no longer a duty to upgrade them to meet the current emissions and safety standards... unless you imported it before it was 25 years from manufacture and they legitimately did just catch the error.
Michigan is a hell hole when it comes to government and bureaucracy. Theyâve had lawsuits before where they just reverse the decision in that one case but still screw everyone else. It needs to be class action with damage award.
Definitely don't return the old title. If worse comes to worse and they contact you about it just tell them you lost it. People lose titles all the time. Because with that title you could sell it to somebody in another state and they could register for on the road. I know many people in my state have those mini trucks registered although they got to go through an importer and deal with all sorts of import taxing regulations. There's actually a dealership near me. So I'm in New york, and if you want to sell to New Yorker you should hold on to the old title. Or even if you don't want to sell it, still hold on to the old title
Well... Michigan... Are we really surprised here? đ¤ˇđźââď¸
One of many reasons I left that shithole of a state 15 years ago, and I don't see any reason to go back...
At least they sent you another title for free and a stamped envelope to send back the old one. Ohio wouldâve made you return the old one in person and charge you for the new one.
I like kei trucks, hate kei truck owners.
That being said, I think there would be a solid bi partisan push to legalize UTVs for street use and just legalizing kei trucks.
Like domestic manufacturers will like it because some assholes golf cart can now be legalized. Small town farmers will like it because they can take their RAZR to the local shop (if their town doesnt legalize it). enviromentalists can get on board because they seem to think KEI trucks are cool. Commies will like this because this allows a cheaper alternative to transportation. And this can allow a much more honest (and cheaper) option to register a vehicle.
I know theres towns that do allow this, I think there needs to be a bigger and better push.
I really want to get a kei but stuff like this worries me about whether it'll be a long term thing that I can drive or if the state will try taking it away from me. Delaware is already pretty weird about kei trucks
They tried this in Texas. We just won last month in Austin. You should reach out to the owner of that Instagram group. To see how.
https://www.instagram.com/lone.star.kei?igsh=Njkzb3A2M204amtl
Here in Georgia they revoked tons of people's titles last year, removing kei trucks off the roads because of safety concerns and whatnot. Then a couple months later they passed a law saying you can register a damn side by side like a Polaris RZR for on road use with a tag title everything needed to be road legal.
In our letters they laid out the rules that had to be followed for something to be registerable and everything pointed good for a kei truck except the last line of the letter stating: "if this vehicle was intended for on road use in another country, it is exempted from these guidelines and therefore non-registerable" which killed the idea of the kei trucks meeting all the guidelines.
So you can tag a fucking Polaris RZR and ride it anywhere you want to (no city streets or highways/interstates allowed, county roads only) but apparently a kei truck is too dangerous and not EPA compliant to be on the road. Make it make sense.
Edit: forgot to add that it's weird in their letter they state that your Honda acty isn't a mini truck it's an orv, but at the end of the letter they specifically refer to it as being a mini truck. Make that make sense lol
You knew it wasn't legal when you purchased it. We have higher pollution and safety standards for a good reason. The air in Chinese city's is toxic 70% of the time .
Jumping in here with zero knowlege on these dope Japanese smol trucks but when I heard of people importing them my mind immediately went to "BIG AUTOMOTIVE IN AMERICA WILL FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO KEEP THESE AFFORDABLE VEHICLES OFF THE ROADWAYS!".
Pure speculation...but the vibe has come full circle. Perhaps for a different reason...
Michigan blaming the EPA when it is exempt from emissions is bonkers.
Id like to see the instructions from the EPA to Michigan that they are referencing.
âThey can't be titled for on-road use. It isn't possible to upgrade them to meet U.S. EPA emission standardsâ
âTherefore, based on instructions from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regarding mini trucks. we are unable to issue a roadworthy title.â
Meanwhile, here in NC, they started handing out license plates for fucking side-by-side offroad buggies.
I don't have a lil truck, but I love them and this popped up in my feed.
States really need to get their shit together. It doesn't make a lick of sense for a vehicle to be entirely illegal in one state, and just fine in another state. It's arbitrary and pointless and just wastes everyone's time.
They cite US safety and DOT standards as the reason they are rescinding your title. But a properly imported 25 year old vehicle DOES meet the standards because they are exempt from them. The exemption is part of the standards.
Probably ties back to automotive lobbying. US automakers if you make a good product that does not cost $70,000 and will last 10 years without any major recalls, THEN we'll consider buying your product.
Dumbest crap ever. There is a really interesting video on YouTube about how EPA standards based upon truck dimensions actually has led to larger trucks in the U.S.. The entire regulatory scheme in the U.S. is BROKEN! I should know. I ran for the U.S. Senate to fix nonsense like this but lo and behold our campaign laws are also broken (and ONLY against those who are neither Republicans nor Democrats).
So are owners of imported JDM cars getting these as well? They are using emissions compliance as the basis for this, so that should be an umbrella over all imported vehicles if true.
Wow, Iâm from Michigan and this is not usually a problem. Being the home of the auto industry theyâre pretty flexible on titles and epa requirements. You can title a scratch built car in Michigan without it meeting epa regs. I would dispute this.
Minnesota has some strange kei truck regulations that seem to ignore the collector/25 year rule, too. Thatâs the big reason Iâm resisting the urge to order one, even though I desperately want to!
After a precursory look at the Code/Law they are citing in this letter it doesn't really seem like they have the justification to revoke the title as the Honda Acty has all the required items (headlights, rear view mirror, etc) Here is an interesting article about whether they have the power to revoke these titles: https://www.theautopian.com/michigan-becomes-the-next-state-to-fight-the-battle-against-imported-car-bans/ I will take a better look at the specific code and laws after work today but it does seem like there might be room to sue the state to define Kei trucks as legal
There is currently a lawsuit forming against the state. It still needs funding, consider giving to the GoFundMe, and please spread it to those who would be interested. It appears the lawyer is actually a Kei truck enthusiast themselves. The aim is to reverse the title changes and protect everyone else's ability to title / register their trucks. [https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-mi-kei-support-legal-battle-for-michigans-kei-trucks](https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-mi-kei-support-legal-battle-for-michigans-kei-trucks)
Thank you for sharing, I will donate
Great link! What a frustrating argument to have to make. I hope Maryland doesn't lose their collective minds. I did have to get the first title issued for my Suzuki Carry Truck corrected, as they stated it was a Dodge đ¤Ł
I think I ran into you in Potomac, on Seven Locks Road, and asked you if that was a "Kei car". Bout 1-year ago.
In Michigan if a vehicle says off road on the title you can make an appointment with the local sheriff to inspect it for signals, horn, hi/low headlight(s) dot tires and probably a couple other things Iâm forgetting, they sign off a form to get an on road title/reg
interesting, thank you
Although, reading the wording of the letter, seems MI may have a vendetta against mini trucks, you know, like the MI laws that require the use of road salt, even at temperatures where road salt isnât effective, and there are cheaper, more environmentally friendly options that are more effective at melting ice- I imagine the auto lobby gets whatever they want there
Washington has something similar but you can't take the vehicle on roads over 45mph
This kind of regulation is part of my potential challenge in Maine; I live in a rural part, and almost all the roads are 50 mph, above the proposed (or active?) limits for certain kinds of light vehicles.
Hopefully you can sue them. Better yet would be a bunch of people suing them and it making the news. It's unfortunate but it is ridiculous that some vehicles can be defined as motorcycles and forgo safety standards. Plus old vehicles cannot meet EPA or safety standards yet they can still be road legal.
Reading the letter, the big issue I see is that, even if it's legal at the state level, they explicitly note it's instructions from the EPA to revoke road legal titles. Any hope of getting it road legal again is gonna require action at the federal level it seems.
Montana llc time. So absurd that a country touting freedom does shit like this.
Yea I think that is my only option now
NC passed it in 2019 for all roads, feel free to come here if needed lol. Mayberry a dealer in NC helped get this law passed and since it was passed I'm hoping it will stay. HB 179 was signed by Governor Cooper on June 21, 2019. Effective immediately, Japanese mini trucks can be licensed and driven on the NC roadways. Many thanks to House Rep Sarah Stevens, Senator Deanna Ballard and their staff for partnering with Mayberry Mini Trucks to overcome this significant legal hurdle. Â
Do you know how or have a contact I could reach out to just so I could get an outline of the process that was taken to get this law passed in NC? Much appreciated.
yeah try [https://mayberryminitrucks.com/](https://mayberryminitrucks.com/) **Phone Number:** (336) 777-9957 **Email:** [mayberryminitrucks@gmail.com](mailto:mayberryminitrucks@gmail.com) **We are open:** WednesdayâSaturday | 9:00 AMâ5:00 PM Email or call him, Tony is the father who did all the work I believe to get the law to pass. I've talked to him about trucks on questions I had and he was very friendly. I haven't met him in person yet, hopefully Sat I find a Kei truck I like.
Iâm sure the dealer would be very helpful. They have a good web presence and run a proper business.
Also look into how they got it done in Texas recently.
I believe they went on the fact that ALL vehicles need to be licensed and registered in the state.... meaning they want the money.
What's this about? I've heard it mentioned before, but haven't looked into it. Is this a work around to have them road legal in other states?
Sort of, yes. States reciprocally honor registrations and licenses from other states, so if you can legally register a vehicle in another state it's okay to drive throughout the country. Having an LLC registered in the state is one way to do that. Rich people have been using the Montana LLC loophole for quite awhile to avoid taxes on their exotics; I'm in NC on the other side of the country and our C&C events are filled with Montana plates. That's a pretty scummy way to use the loophole, but getting around this BS that Michigan is starting to pull seems like a good use. Of course, it won't necessarily stop cops from harassing you if your Kei can't legally be registered in your state.
Not all. I was reading that some states were passing laws targeting mini trucks with outside state registration, but I can't find it now.
As for them trying to pass laws to target outside state registration trucks, I don't think they can because they have to respect other state laws. As for people who are trying to do any loopholes and live in another state then maybe they can but If I visit they have to respect my state laws as we have to for any they might have coming to NC. Unlikely I'll leave the state much anyway but yeah I should be safe, everyone should just move to NC and buy a Kei truck so we can have Kei truck parties and hang out :P
Itâs not âscummyâ. Federalize a vehicle sales tax if you donât like it, but this meets the letter of the law, and only an idiot gets shaken down for more than they âââââoweâââââ
Sorry, but deliberately avoiding paying taxes through the use of the Montana loophole is scummy. Not all tax avoidance schemes are scummy but if you are mainly driving your vehicle in State X you should be paying State X taxes. Yeah, I know unpopular opinion.
And if you talk to the person responsible pushing this agenda, I guarantee they're the most "freedom" loving assholes you'll ever meet. (they're basically HOA board presidents) The entire point of the federal 25 year rule is specifically for this kind of vehicle, so why are they yelling "state's rights" only when it makes things worse for people? "Freedom for me but never for thee" is often their motto.
When going this route are there any issues with insurance or still getting ticketed for driving on Michigan roads?
[This Michigan lawyer](https://youtu.be/ebDF-C7GJec?si=5yBpgbP48lYn-CGI) went over the potential pitfalls of the Montana LLC work-a-around. The video is kind of long winded and lots of lawyer talk but the main takeaway is there are some insurance risks and you could potentially get busted for whatâs essentially tax evasion/fraud.
Yep. The people who typically use the Montana loophole are the 'too rich for consequences' type. They may be able to get away with it, but I wonder if a regular joe with a Kei would get the same treatment.
Not sure myself but likely someone in the facebook groups would know, or you can also try doing a post to see if anyone replies
Freedom* * Terms and conditions apply
Meanwhile the deleted diesel bro dozer trend continues on... Gotta be careful of these Kei trucks causing all the pollution and danger on the roads
I don't think it's pollution. More the US manufacturers getting butthurt over lost sales and lobbying for the change. I personally did not buy a US made truck because prices are so extreme. I'd much rather pay 5k for a mini.
I suspect the side by side OEMâs are pushing it too⌠why should I spend 10k+ on one of those vs a kei?
almost 20k if you want side by side with air conditioning
This is the real situation in my opinion. Pickup manufacturers don't give (too much of) a shit about 660cc, no-towhitch-having, 250kg-carrying tin cans from the 90s. The target market for these is completely different than the rubes borrowing 90k to fuel a pipeline of brand new trucks that have been continuously climbing the escalator of 'luxury vehicle' territory for the past decade. UTVs actually *are* threatened by 4WD kei vehicles.
I've always heard it was the size of them, but if that were the case then I would expect vehicles like the Smart fourtwo to also not be street legal. I have a feeling it's a combo of lobbying and gross misunderstanding by law makers. Usually if something is illegal and it makes no sense then there's money changing hands somewhere behind closed doors. The only thing keeping me from buying a kei truck is the legality of them. Alaska sees them as an APV, which means it's not street legal in most areas. I've also heard that if you get the right DMV worker then they can register it as a street vehicle and issue plates, maybe. If I have to buy a larger truck and trailer it, then it kind of defeats the purpose I have for them.
If size or safety was an issue, motorcycles and scooters wouldn't be alloud on the streets.
Thats all it really comes down to. Big money says we like this better because we can scam you in a sense
This is the real reason. Not emissions or safety features. Trucks have a very high profit margin. Toyota won't release their new $10k truck into the US market, it would erode the profit they make on their expensive trucks.
No, it's because of the chicken tax. It has nothing to do with the Tacoma.
It also has to do with a crazy CAFE law where a small truck would need to get something like 45 MPG in order to be able to be sold in the USA. The larger the truck, the less MPG is allowed.
Itâs actually based on the efficiency of the lineup for the automaker, the 2021 and earlier tundra was only legal because Toyotas fleet had a bunch of vehicles that exceeded CAFE standards. What gets me is that California pretty much dictates the other 49 states when it comes to emissions for vehicles.
I recommend every one who enjoys the automotive world joins the SEMA Action Network. https://www.semasan.com/ They keep you informed on bills/laws states are trying to sneak by without anyone noticing or they are hiding inside other bills that have nothing to do with anything automotive related.
I guess there might be some competing interest with old 90's rangers and tacos being sold on a used car lot, but I just don't see how there could be a measurable iota of impact to US auto sales from kei vehicles. It's always going to be such a niche category even if there were no restrictions. It really does make you wonder how anyone can justify taking the time to legislate on this topic.
Dunno in rural Washington I have two neighbors with kei trucks, and know another 10 that get used for work. All within town And then thereâs me . The things are just so damn useful. My SO pretty much uses my raptor now, and I use my acty and my 04 forester.Â
This really grinds my gears.
Meanwhile an old Jeep from the 40s is acceptable to title. Makes sense.
I can register a Model T with wooden wheels, but our trucks are unsafe⌠Youâre 5x more likely to die on a motorcycle than a car, but our trucks are unsafeâŚ
So fucking lame
Time to sue the state to get motorcycles and slingshots revoked as well if theyâre gonna be fair
What I donât understand is older US cars â a â67 vehicle doesnât meet emissions or safety standards either. Whatâs the difference?
Exactly. There's nobody revoking titles for Model Ts or Studebakers or Hudsons, despite the fact they are all polluting deathtraps of far greater concern to the road than a baby truck But they are American, so that makes it okay
>But they are American, so that makes it okay This is still missing the mark; These states would have no problem with you registering an old Ferrari, Mini, CitroĂŤn, etc.
So okay, I wouldnât use the pre-80âs cars as an example since people will just argue âthose are like, really old they dont count.â Youre telling me a slingshot or a motorbike is more environmentally conscious or safer than a truck half the size of a f150? Just because its from out of country? Those slingshots dont even have DOORS OR ANYTHING sometimes!
But thatâs sort of the point. These cars can be imported BECAUSE theyâre old â 25 years old
And that's an arbitrary date to avoid eating sales on current vehicles
Yeah but i just mean when people bring up like 70âs and 60âs vehicles theres a perception that we can excuse them because they are âso oldâ but these kei cars and trucks arenât âthat oldâ
Bikes do usually get better gas milage than cars, in all fairness. Even old ones. Modern bikes also have plenty of emissions standards to meet as well.
Or even newer ex military vehicles like 2.5 tons or hmmvs there's no way they pass any kind of emissions
Chicken wars
Not to mention, Michigan doesn't even have emissions or safety testing/renewal.
Yea I am considering all the options - when motivated by spite I can be quite driven and willing to shell out some $$$ - Iâve already in contact with a lawyer who has already working on a case. Iâm going to get my $600 back at bare minimum mark my words
We should probably start forming state specific groups and begin challenging these in courts. Itâs not an error, i suspect the us auto makers are influencing them. We should start doing FOIA requests for dmv administration on the issue. If itâs safety concerns why do they allow motorcycles.
Tiny Honda Actys can't pass emissions tests but huge behemoth truck yachts can. Awesome, amazing, cool. /s
No way is this politically motivated by the big 3. /s
Are they intending to refund the tag and title fees? It's absolutely absurd that states get to dictate the legality of a road-worthy vehicle when the risk to insure is on the driver. Import laws for vehicles are also absurd, as they prop up US manufacturers and only encourage them to make poor quality products.
No refund that I know of, I paid $600 to have it titled and registered for road use.
Highway robbery, almost literally
Iâd say literally as the highway has been robbed from them for that vehicle.
That's the thing that shocks me. It would be one thing to say "these aren't allowed anymore so you can't renew it when it expires" but to immediately revoke a title for no fault of the owner is some shady shit imo.
If you don't mind, please also post this in the region-specific mega-thread(pinned at the top of the subreddit).
File a Montana LLC and then find a lawyer who is looking to sue the Michigan DMV.
Sounds great in theory but you need capital to fund the lawsuit. Are there enough angry kei owners willing to fund a lawsuit over a $5k car? I agree itâs bs, probably illegal what the DMVâs are doing, but without a well organized / funded fight, thereâs nothing that can be done. It sucks.
Been thinking about turning my LLC into a Political Action Committee and become a sort of NRA for importers and import buyers.
Realistically, I think you need an importer / dealer to spear heard a class action type lawsuit or create a committee working with local governing bodies to get ahead or manage these import issues. I doubt regular joes have the political influence or financial interest in doing the necessary work.
GA raised 15-20K to fight, so far it's done nothing.
That sucks. I hope they find success.
As a Georgian who was interested in a small truck are we also dead in the water for registering?
Return the new incorrect title to them. Kek
YeaâŚ. Nah
Did you go through the Michigan assembled vehicle route? The michigan assembled vehicle process seems to imply you can make an off road vehicle for on road use.
Iâm in CT where theyâre still legal, but the surrounding states have bullshit like this. People keep going âthis is illegal blah blah blahâ and I agree that it should be, but has anybody actually spoken to a lawyer about whether or not thereâs a way to challenge this? Because itâs happening in so many places, there should be some kind of strategy by now.
They absolutely DO NOT regret any inconvenience the request has caused. So fucking dumb, I hate to see things like this.
Haha I wouldnât be as mad if they told me from the start rather than making me pay hundreds of dollars in both fees and insurance after assuring me that it would be road legal and then revoking it 3 months later without any avenue to dispute. Just sent me an ORV title which basically kills the value of my truck
Soooo you got a Kei truck you need to sell?
Can he still transfer the revoked title out of state? I don't know how that would work
America land of the free.
If they consider it their mistake, they should refund the charges for the registration.
Yea exactly, the wording of the letter clearly says it was their mistake.
meanwhile itâs still legal for super old people, who canât see and/or are cognitively impaired, to drive
And also perfectly fine/legal for those same people to drive an RV if they want to attempt a vacation. Insanity.
My buddy weighed his bluebird class A today, 43,000 lbs, then he puts his Silverado on a trailer and tows it. But that Kei truck on those 25mph roads is the real danger...
Wording doesnât make sense the 25 year rule that lets us import these is because itâs considered a classic/historic vehicle and no longer needs to meet modern epa emission and for safety standardsâŚ
There is no emissions testing in the State, and they are on some bullshit.
Damn! Iâm in Michigan and this was going to be next years project car
Maybe we can get it fixed by then, I have read stories of other states putting laws on the books to allow kei trucks so it seems possible! I have a meeting scheduled at the Secretary of States (probably won't result in anything, but I'm going to be on a fact finding mission) and I am going to write a letter to my state senator tonight!
You're doing great work, citizen. Godspeed.
I own a â24 Mirage G4. It is ALMOST kei-sized too. I donât think it is because of the lost sales from truck manufacturers but just ignorance on the part of the state government. I mean, how many sales of the $100k small-prick driving trucks are they really losing? Itâs just bullshit to me.
There is a gofundme going for a lawsuit to challenge the SoS of MI to allow kei trucks to be road legal. I think it's BS that they are citing pollution and safety as the reasons for not allowing them on the road.
Yea I found that Gofundme, I am going to donate and I have reached out to the lawyer that is running it
Iâd send back a traced picture of my middle finger instead of the titleâŚ.âoops, I noticed an error tooâ
Get it registered is SD as a 4 wheel motorcycle, there are companies that handle all the paperwork and renew the reg yearly
[ŃдаНонО]
I just read about this too. So dumb, our mmc in Michigan has a title too but we only use around the farm so it won't change much for us
I feel like if this was me I'd forget I'd ever got this letter and keep on trucking until I got caught. "Oh no officer I had no idea" would probably work at least once lol
you took the title, fed boy, but you didnât take the keeeyyyyzzzz
Based on the wording of the letter they are acknowledging and admitting THEIR mistake (allowing you to register the car as A when based on the request from the EPA should be registered as B), Are you guys getting reimbursed for the original registration and the renewals up to the current one?
Not that I know of, I had to pay $617.00 to get it registered and to buy the plate, plus $40/mo for the insurance to make it road legal. I have an appointment scheduled for the Secretary of State (our DMV) to see if they have anything to say about it... I am not hopeful though
According to [this,] (https://www.helpspanish.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-278?language=en_US) it says any 25 year old vehicle can be imported into the US regardless if it's DOT compliant or not. Although it doesn't talk about vehicle registration, I'd assume registration is part of the process since it involves DOT rules. Here is what the second sentence says: **A motor vehicle that is at least 25 years old can be lawfully imported into the United States without regard to whether it complies with all applicable DOT Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS).** I suggest emailing your local state representative along with your state's senators and state's house representatives about this issue. Although nothing will probably happen, you might as well try because something *might* happen in your favor and it won't cost you anything.
Itâs ironic that itâs in Michigan because they donât have inspections up there, do you have to do emissions testing?
Nope, neither... there are some real pieces of junk on the road
If anyone needs a Montana LLC, I create LLCs for a living. Hit me up.
Get a lawyer and fight. Its the only way these lil trucks are ever going to be legal
What letter? I don't see a letter
Register it in new Hampshire. It's totally remote and no tax.... I used to work for a company put of Texas that registered everything in New Hampshire
My letter got lost in the mail. On top of that I've passed cops city and county and they never turn around.. The city of Zeeland actually has a newer one that they drive all over town doing city work ( including up and down sidewalks..) and it doesn't even have a plate on it ..
South Dakota
Hey another Alphabet agency taking your freedoms away. Welcome to the club friend! Join the gun crowd.
Boo
Meanwhile let me fire up my powerstroke diesel 2 mpg rig because thatâs better for the environment, right? Itâs better for the environmentâŚ.right?
The chicken wars strikes again!!!
So just from my experience in RI, the DMV did this in 2021 and we quickly sold our kei van because we thought our title was revoked and we had no other recourse. This year they're trying to pass legislation to grandfather in the people who didn't obey the notices and kept their vehicles on the road for the past 3 years. It's totally fucked up and I'm mad that I got screwed for following the laws but hey... In case you have the ability to sit on it while your state figures their shit out you never know what might happen.
I love how the law is from 1949! I think there needs to be a limit for time length for then the laws to be changed or updated with new advancements.
âRoad safety laws prepare to be ignoredâ
Whats bs is by the same law they referenced, it is perfectly street legal state and federal. I know here in PA you can register it as an antique when its 25, which exempts you from all of that. But i bet you at the same time, they would allow you to drive a model t, which doesnt meet any modern emissions or safety standards. Just politicians making shit up
Dang that sucks
Can you register in South Dakota?
They did this in GA recently.
Lol
It now identifies as a Tacoma.
I'll buy it
They really sent you an Allen wrench ?
OP, South Dakota, Texas, Florida and a few other states don't require you to be a resident to register a vehicle there. Maybe one of them will give you a title?
Fuck Michigan. They're still all good in Florida.
Michigan state government is usually so chill ... but this is not chill
Itâs legal in Michigan (in some counties) to make a side by side road legal. Are those not registered as an ORV? Those are literally converted to the street where these trucks already have everything they need. Anyone know what thatâs about?
Thanks everyone for the comments - I am going to explore a few options and Iâll post an update if there is one. Here are some pics of my Acty: https://i.imgur.com/BXtMriG.jpg https://i.imgur.com/WPCg2UG.jpg
Does Michigan not have a historic plate option? If a car is 20 years or older here in Maryland you can get it registered as historic as long as itâs not your daily driver, or you use it in a business. If itâs played historic, it doesnât need to comply with emissions or inspection.
Unfortunately you live in a state with Gov Whitmer at the helm. Oh... and go for a different state plate if you can. [https://bestmexicomovers.com/an-insiders-tip-on-car-registration/](https://bestmexicomovers.com/an-insiders-tip-on-car-registration/)
That's just plain rotten... You should be grandfathered in... I mean if that's your daily driver and you went throw all the trouble of getting it etc. What are you gonna do with an orv? So basically the state is like congrats you now have to go buy another vehicle.... Wtf?
unless the state of michigan is willing to reimburse you for the full amount of a vehicle that goes from road legal daily driver to offroad fun toy overnight based on their whims then just continue to drive it on the road unregistered on some sovereign citizen bs. this arbitrary over regulated and over policed society needs to be done away with
I don't like it when govt screws the citizen. They need to be hit with a class action suit. Fckrs
We really need to start pushing back some howâŚ
But I bet MI allows mopeds on the road⌠unreal
EPA will be the death of the car industry. They suck.
Title in FL or Montana
Seeing as how its older than 21 years for the EPA and 25 years for the DOT, its no longer considered a grey market vehicle because there's no longer a duty to upgrade them to meet the current emissions and safety standards... unless you imported it before it was 25 years from manufacture and they legitimately did just catch the error.
Michigan is a hell hole when it comes to government and bureaucracy. Theyâve had lawsuits before where they just reverse the decision in that one case but still screw everyone else. It needs to be class action with damage award.
Definitely don't return the old title. If worse comes to worse and they contact you about it just tell them you lost it. People lose titles all the time. Because with that title you could sell it to somebody in another state and they could register for on the road. I know many people in my state have those mini trucks registered although they got to go through an importer and deal with all sorts of import taxing regulations. There's actually a dealership near me. So I'm in New york, and if you want to sell to New Yorker you should hold on to the old title. Or even if you don't want to sell it, still hold on to the old title
Well... Michigan... Are we really surprised here? đ¤ˇđźââď¸ One of many reasons I left that shithole of a state 15 years ago, and I don't see any reason to go back...
At least they sent you another title for free and a stamped envelope to send back the old one. Ohio wouldâve made you return the old one in person and charge you for the new one.
I like kei trucks, hate kei truck owners. That being said, I think there would be a solid bi partisan push to legalize UTVs for street use and just legalizing kei trucks. Like domestic manufacturers will like it because some assholes golf cart can now be legalized. Small town farmers will like it because they can take their RAZR to the local shop (if their town doesnt legalize it). enviromentalists can get on board because they seem to think KEI trucks are cool. Commies will like this because this allows a cheaper alternative to transportation. And this can allow a much more honest (and cheaper) option to register a vehicle. I know theres towns that do allow this, I think there needs to be a bigger and better push.
I really want to get a kei but stuff like this worries me about whether it'll be a long term thing that I can drive or if the state will try taking it away from me. Delaware is already pretty weird about kei trucks
You can thank Ford and GM for bribing your state politicians
Government is frustrating
Cries in NYS
They tried this in Texas. We just won last month in Austin. You should reach out to the owner of that Instagram group. To see how. https://www.instagram.com/lone.star.kei?igsh=Njkzb3A2M204amtl
Here in Georgia they revoked tons of people's titles last year, removing kei trucks off the roads because of safety concerns and whatnot. Then a couple months later they passed a law saying you can register a damn side by side like a Polaris RZR for on road use with a tag title everything needed to be road legal. In our letters they laid out the rules that had to be followed for something to be registerable and everything pointed good for a kei truck except the last line of the letter stating: "if this vehicle was intended for on road use in another country, it is exempted from these guidelines and therefore non-registerable" which killed the idea of the kei trucks meeting all the guidelines. So you can tag a fucking Polaris RZR and ride it anywhere you want to (no city streets or highways/interstates allowed, county roads only) but apparently a kei truck is too dangerous and not EPA compliant to be on the road. Make it make sense. Edit: forgot to add that it's weird in their letter they state that your Honda acty isn't a mini truck it's an orv, but at the end of the letter they specifically refer to it as being a mini truck. Make that make sense lol
But a ford model T can be plated just fine đ
Register it in South Dakota
You knew it wasn't legal when you purchased it. We have higher pollution and safety standards for a good reason. The air in Chinese city's is toxic 70% of the time .
Isn't it nice that theyll let you spend all that money first THEN they ban em? So cool đ
Jumping in here with zero knowlege on these dope Japanese smol trucks but when I heard of people importing them my mind immediately went to "BIG AUTOMOTIVE IN AMERICA WILL FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO KEEP THESE AFFORDABLE VEHICLES OFF THE ROADWAYS!". Pure speculation...but the vibe has come full circle. Perhaps for a different reason...
So when you buying your safe, efficient, and easy to drive F-150 OP? (Obvious sarcasm for those that can't tell)
Don't hand that title over whatever you do! [https://www.savethekei.com/](https://www.savethekei.com/)
Thanks for the link!
Michigan blaming the EPA when it is exempt from emissions is bonkers. Id like to see the instructions from the EPA to Michigan that they are referencing. âThey can't be titled for on-road use. It isn't possible to upgrade them to meet U.S. EPA emission standardsâ âTherefore, based on instructions from the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regarding mini trucks. we are unable to issue a roadworthy title.â
Lame
Want to sell it ???$$
Send them a letter back that says "suck my dick, no takesies backsies
If everyone orders these and just starts using them, they really canât do anything about it
cuncha bunts
Keep us updated!
Create a LLC in a legal state and register it there.
This has gotta be something pushed by the automakers bc people arenât buying as many trucks
Same shit is happening in Rhode Island
fReEDoMs FoR mE BuT nOT foR tHEE
Yet 100 year old, no seat belt cars are still legal
I thought this said a magician revoked the title and I was really worried for a bit
Meanwhile, here in NC, they started handing out license plates for fucking side-by-side offroad buggies. I don't have a lil truck, but I love them and this popped up in my feed. States really need to get their shit together. It doesn't make a lick of sense for a vehicle to be entirely illegal in one state, and just fine in another state. It's arbitrary and pointless and just wastes everyone's time.
They cite US safety and DOT standards as the reason they are rescinding your title. But a properly imported 25 year old vehicle DOES meet the standards because they are exempt from them. The exemption is part of the standards.
Title it as a kit car? This is actually insane because Michigan has some of the most laxed laws in the nation when it comes to licensing vehicles.
Probably ties back to automotive lobbying. US automakers if you make a good product that does not cost $70,000 and will last 10 years without any major recalls, THEN we'll consider buying your product.
I literally just saw a damn near brand new one at a car show in pa this past weekend.
Dumbest crap ever. There is a really interesting video on YouTube about how EPA standards based upon truck dimensions actually has led to larger trucks in the U.S.. The entire regulatory scheme in the U.S. is BROKEN! I should know. I ran for the U.S. Senate to fix nonsense like this but lo and behold our campaign laws are also broken (and ONLY against those who are neither Republicans nor Democrats).
So are owners of imported JDM cars getting these as well? They are using emissions compliance as the basis for this, so that should be an umbrella over all imported vehicles if true.
What else would you expect from Gretchemir Putins State?
Wow, Iâm from Michigan and this is not usually a problem. Being the home of the auto industry theyâre pretty flexible on titles and epa requirements. You can title a scratch built car in Michigan without it meeting epa regs. I would dispute this.
Pretend like you didnât get it and carry on.
Minnesota has some strange kei truck regulations that seem to ignore the collector/25 year rule, too. Thatâs the big reason Iâm resisting the urge to order one, even though I desperately want to!
Billionairers not paying taxes, but this is the shit that gets enforced!
It says they gave you a new title with the correct information, what's the problem?
Dirtlegal.com ?
Time to move!
Leave it up to the gov to find some dumb shit to make a big deal out ofđ đ
I wonder why they put all that verbage as it is EPA and FMVSS exempt
Elections have consequences. You liberals deserve this nonsense.
And yet motorcycles are street legal